Author Topic: Narthex - what is it?  (Read 219 times)

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Online rakovsky

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Narthex - what is it?
« on: May 02, 2017, 12:19:20 PM »
Where does one draw the line: secular concert singing, secular dancing, churchly dancing, acrobatics?
Is there a canon on the question of dancing in church?



The Church restricted Ivan the Terrible to the Narthex when he was excommunicated.
If Ivan the Terrible can be in the Narthex, maybe acrobatics for fundraising can be there too. Seems iffy though.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 12:21:25 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: Narthex - what is it?
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2017, 01:47:56 PM »

That was not the Narthex.  It looked like the Nave, with a screen set up in an attempt to preserve some sense of decorum. 

I don't care if it was raining cats and dogs outside, this kind of thing does not belong inside a church.

We don't allow running around, talking, cellphones, etc....but, we allow the circus?

Pitch a tent outside and do all the acrobatics you want. 
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Narthex - what is it?
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2017, 06:07:01 PM »
Where does one draw the line: secular concert singing, secular dancing, churchly dancing, acrobatics?
Is there a canon on the question of dancing in church?



The Church restricted Ivan the Terrible to the Narthex when he was excommunicated.
If Ivan the Terrible can be in the Narthex, maybe acrobatics for fundraising can be there too. Seems iffy though.

Very iffy.  As in "entirely separate issues" very iffy.
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Online rakovsky

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Re: Narthex - what is it?
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2017, 09:38:19 PM »
Here is a map of a nave vs. a Narthex. A Narthex is much more narrow than the nave, the Narthex has ikons too: Box #2 in my graph a few messages ago has ikons on the walls of the Narthex. And the nave is the separate room with the ikonostasis. And the archway separating them is much narrower than either room:



If you go watch the video, you can see that the room with the dancing is much more narrow than the nave. It does have ikons on the wall, just like Narthexes do.  Only two or three people standing shoulder to shoulder would fit through that arch. The nave is a larger separate room with the ikonostasis.

Here is a video where they set up fences at 1:45 into the clip, and then at 2:20 the priest opens the ceremony:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXrA_x3RGho

Here is a question I don't know the answer to:
Is there a canon against dancing in church?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 09:44:51 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Narthex - what is it?
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2017, 11:02:53 AM »
Here is a map of a nave vs. a Narthex. A Narthex is much more narrow than the nave, the Narthex has ikons too: Box #2 in my graph a few messages ago has ikons on the walls of the Narthex. And the nave is the separate room with the ikonostasis. And the archway separating them is much narrower than either room:



If you go watch the video, you can see that the room with the dancing is much more narrow than the nave. It does have ikons on the wall, just like Narthexes do.  Only two or three people standing shoulder to shoulder would fit through that arch. The nave is a larger separate room with the ikonostasis.

Here is a video where they set up fences at 1:45 into the clip, and then at 2:20 the priest opens the ceremony:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXrA_x3RGho

Here is a question I don't know the answer to:
Is there a canon against dancing in church?

Is that the floor plan of the church in the OP?  If not, stop spinning. 
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Narthex - what is it?
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2017, 12:48:09 PM »
If you go watch the video, you can see that the room with the dancing is much more narrow than the nave. It does have ikons on the wall, just like Narthexes do.  Only two or three people standing shoulder to shoulder would fit through that arch. The nave is a larger separate room with the ikonostasis.









http://hram-rpb.cerkov.ru/velikoe-osvyashhenie-xrama/

In that last photo, you can see someone wearing a white boot standing in a shaded area.  That is a narthex.  What you thought was a narthex is actually a nave. 
« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 12:48:52 PM by Mor Ephrem »
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Re: Narthex - what is it?
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2017, 12:56:54 PM »
If you go watch the video, you can see that the room with the dancing is much more narrow than the nave. It does have ikons on the wall, just like Narthexes do.  Only two or three people standing shoulder to shoulder would fit through that arch. The nave is a larger separate room with the ikonostasis.









http://hram-rpb.cerkov.ru/velikoe-osvyashhenie-xrama/

In that last photo, you can see someone wearing a white boot standing in a shaded area.  That is a narthex.  What you thought was a narthex is actually a nave.




without getting into the fight...isn't the white booted lady just outside under the covered porch?
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Re: Narthex - what is it?
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2017, 01:00:20 PM »
without getting into the fight...isn't the white booted lady just outside under the covered porch?

I usually count the covered porch as part of the narthex.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narthex
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Re: Narthex - what is it?
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2017, 01:03:45 PM »
without getting into the fight...isn't the white booted lady just outside under the covered porch?

I usually count the covered porch as part of the narthex.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narthex


fair enough....although in terms of the clowns...a bit odd in this case since they were not outside in the outer narthex.....

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Re: Narthex - what is it?
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2017, 01:13:05 PM »
without getting into the fight...isn't the white booted lady just outside under the covered porch?

I usually count the covered porch as part of the narthex.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narthex


fair enough....although in terms of the clowns...a bit odd in this case since they were not outside in the outer narthex.....

The article in the OP claims the local diocese explained that cold weather forced them all indoors.  If you look at the parish website, where there are more photos, it seems there were a lot of children performing, so their health may have been a reasonable concern.  Still, they had an outdoor cross-procession before the performances, so who knows. 
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Re: Narthex - what is it?
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2017, 01:16:04 PM »
without getting into the fight...isn't the white booted lady just outside under the covered porch?

I usually count the covered porch as part of the narthex.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narthex


fair enough....although in terms of the clowns...a bit odd in this case since they were not outside in the outer narthex.....

The article in the OP claims the local diocese explained that cold weather forced them all indoors.  If you look at the parish website, where there are more photos, it seems there were a lot of children performing, so their health may have been a reasonable concern.  Still, they had an outdoor cross-procession before the performances, so who knows.


indeed...and i am not taking a side here....well other than....'a porch is not a narthex, in Russia, Finland or Northern parts of the US or Europe'

;)
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Re: Narthex - what is it?
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2017, 01:36:27 PM »
Here is a map of a nave vs. a Narthex. A Narthex is much more narrow than the nave, the Narthex has ikons too: Box #2 in my graph a few messages ago has ikons on the walls of the Narthex. And the nave is the separate room with the ikonostasis. And the archway separating them is much narrower than either room:



Is that the floor plan of the church in the OP?  If not, stop spinning.
Dear Mor,
That is a floor plan showing the difference between Narthexes and Naves, so it's relevant even if it is not of this particular church. Naves hold the ikonostasis, whereas a room separated by an arch so narrow that only 2-3 people could walk through in a row is commonly a Narthex.

I'm going to take a moment and laugh that you're trying to lecture Mor on Church design.

...

Floor plans are great for your Intro to Liturgics classes, but not for discussions of the practical ramifications of holding performance art in the Church.  For many Churches, the division between Narthex and Nave, if it exists, is minimal.  Narthex and Nave are supposed to have a more solid division - doors that close - if you're going to go and cite theory in this discussion.  The Narthex is worship space for those who are  excommunicated, catechumens, etc. - and when we call for the doors to close, they get shut out. 

So an "archway" does not sufficiently separate Narthex and Nave, for the purposes of this thread.  The temporary division that they erected is a nod to the fact that they know the behavior doesn't belong in Church, and that the division between the spaces is insufficient as is.  They're doing the best they can, and in this internet age the decisions of local parishes to respond to local problems pastorally get applied to big Church problems as examples for precedent.  I don't think they'd argue that this was a good thing, and it seems that few here think it's a good thing.
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Re: Narthex - what is it?
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2017, 01:45:44 PM »
Here is a map of a nave vs. a Narthex. A Narthex is much more narrow than the nave, the Narthex has ikons too: Box #2 in my graph a few messages ago has ikons on the walls of the Narthex. And the nave is the separate room with the ikonostasis. And the archway separating them is much narrower than either room:



Is that the floor plan of the church in the OP?  If not, stop spinning.
Dear Mor,
That is a floor plan showing the difference between Narthexes and Naves, so it's relevant even if it is not of this particular church. Naves hold the ikonostasis, whereas a room separated by an arch so narrow that only 2-3 people could walk through in a row is commonly a Narthex.

I'm going to take a moment and laugh that you're trying to lecture Mor on Church design.

...

Floor plans are great for your Intro to Liturgics classes, but not for discussions of the practical ramifications of holding performance art in the Church.  For many Churches, the division between Narthex and Nave, if it exists, is minimal.  Narthex and Nave are supposed to have a more solid division - doors that close - if you're going to go and cite theory in this discussion.  The Narthex is worship space for those who are  excommunicated, catechumens, etc. - and when we call for the doors to close, they get shut out. 

So an "archway" does not sufficiently separate Narthex and Nave, for the purposes of this thread.  The temporary division that they erected is a nod to the fact that they know the behavior doesn't belong in Church, and that the division between the spaces is insufficient as is.  They're doing the best they can, and in this internet age the decisions of local parishes to respond to local problems pastorally get applied to big Church problems as examples for precedent.  I don't think they'd argue that this was a good thing, and it seems that few here think it's a good thing.

+1
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Re: Narthex - what is it?
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2017, 02:02:09 PM »

Narthex, or not, it is inappropriate inside of a church.....even though they are Russian, and Russians permitted it.

Some guy in Russia is on trial, and may serve 3 years in prison because he was trying to capture a Pokemon character with his cellphone inside a church....but, a circus inside the church is permitted.

If this was happening in any other Orthodox jurisdiction, or even in a Protestant church, you would all be aghast and expounding on how the faithful have fallen away from the Faith...but, here....all is well.

At least be consistent.
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« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 02:02:41 PM by Antonis »
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

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