Author Topic: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.  (Read 2732 times)

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Online Deacon Lance

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #45 on: July 09, 2017, 11:42:36 PM »
I am familiar with the destruction of the manuscripts and the use of the Roman Canon in the Liturgy but I have never before seen it claimed they had to use Latin.  Can you provide a citation?
Unfortunately, no.  I read about this in one of the many Maronite websites about its history, but my memory fails me to pinpoint which one.


However, all nations were forced to use the Tridentine liturgy and the Latin language, even when their own liturgy used the vernacular, like in Spain, France, Ireland.
I am not inclined to believe it then.  I have read numerous scholarly works about the Maronites as well as talked with Maronite priests and never heard this claim made.  The Roman Canon as well as parts of the Roman Ritual were translated into Syriac, what would the need have been if they were using Latin.

Of course there's the question of when the translation was done.
It started in the 1500s but the 1700s saw the bulk of importations from the Roman Ritual approved at the Synod of Mt Lebanon in 1736.

"1700s" leaves a lot of time for there to have been a period Latin was imposed.
Latin wasn't imposed.  In the long history of the various unions Latin was never imposed.  In fact most Latinizations wer superficial things like vestements and clerical garb.  Do some research instead of believing " this one website said" just because it suits your bias.

I didn't see the poster claim "one website said," but I do see you are using only yourself as authority here.
That is because I know what I am talking about and proven it time and again here and elsewhere.

No, you can't just claim someone's wrong because you said so.
Not because I said so, because I know so.  That I am uninclined to do your research for you doesn't make it not so.  But I did find one reference for you.

Which apparently says nothing about the supposed preservation of Syriac. And it's not my research to back up your claim the Maronites are wrong about their history.
Then your reading skills are impaired, it clearly states the Roman Canon was translated into Syriac.  And again Sharbel offered no evidence for his claim.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #46 on: July 10, 2017, 12:01:52 AM »
I am familiar with the destruction of the manuscripts and the use of the Roman Canon in the Liturgy but I have never before seen it claimed they had to use Latin.  Can you provide a citation?
Unfortunately, no.  I read about this in one of the many Maronite websites about its history, but my memory fails me to pinpoint which one.


However, all nations were forced to use the Tridentine liturgy and the Latin language, even when their own liturgy used the vernacular, like in Spain, France, Ireland.
I am not inclined to believe it then.  I have read numerous scholarly works about the Maronites as well as talked with Maronite priests and never heard this claim made.  The Roman Canon as well as parts of the Roman Ritual were translated into Syriac, what would the need have been if they were using Latin.

Of course there's the question of when the translation was done.
It started in the 1500s but the 1700s saw the bulk of importations from the Roman Ritual approved at the Synod of Mt Lebanon in 1736.

"1700s" leaves a lot of time for there to have been a period Latin was imposed.
Latin wasn't imposed.  In the long history of the various unions Latin was never imposed.  In fact most Latinizations wer superficial things like vestements and clerical garb.  Do some research instead of believing " this one website said" just because it suits your bias.

I didn't see the poster claim "one website said," but I do see you are using only yourself as authority here.
That is because I know what I am talking about and proven it time and again here and elsewhere.

No, you can't just claim someone's wrong because you said so.
Not because I said so, because I know so.  That I am uninclined to do your research for you doesn't make it not so.  But I did find one reference for you.

Which apparently says nothing about the supposed preservation of Syriac. And it's not my research to back up your claim the Maronites are wrong about their history.
Then your reading skills are impaired, it clearly states the Roman Canon was translated into Syriac.  And again Sharbel offered no evidence for his claim.

When was it translated?
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Online Deacon Lance

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #47 on: July 10, 2017, 12:38:36 AM »
I am familiar with the destruction of the manuscripts and the use of the Roman Canon in the Liturgy but I have never before seen it claimed they had to use Latin.  Can you provide a citation?
Unfortunately, no.  I read about this in one of the many Maronite websites about its history, but my memory fails me to pinpoint which one.


However, all nations were forced to use the Tridentine liturgy and the Latin language, even when their own liturgy used the vernacular, like in Spain, France, Ireland.
I am not inclined to believe it then.  I have read numerous scholarly works about the Maronites as well as talked with Maronite priests and never heard this claim made.  The Roman Canon as well as parts of the Roman Ritual were translated into Syriac, what would the need have been if they were using Latin.

Of course there's the question of when the translation was done.
It started in the 1500s but the 1700s saw the bulk of importations from the Roman Ritual approved at the Synod of Mt Lebanon in 1736.

"1700s" leaves a lot of time for there to have been a period Latin was imposed.
Latin wasn't imposed.  In the long history of the various unions Latin was never imposed.  In fact most Latinizations wer superficial things like vestements and clerical garb.  Do some research instead of believing " this one website said" just because it suits your bias.

I didn't see the poster claim "one website said," but I do see you are using only yourself as authority here.
That is because I know what I am talking about and proven it time and again here and elsewhere.

No, you can't just claim someone's wrong because you said so.
Not because I said so, because I know so.  That I am uninclined to do your research for you doesn't make it not so.  But I did find one reference for you.

Which apparently says nothing about the supposed preservation of Syriac. And it's not my research to back up your claim the Maronites are wrong about their history.
Then your reading skills are impaired, it clearly states the Roman Canon was translated into Syriac.  And again Sharbel offered no evidence for his claim.

When was it translated?
Had you bothered to read the article you would know the 1594 edition translated the Latin Institution Narrative into Syriac.  The 1716 edition translated the entire Roman Canon into Syriac.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #48 on: July 10, 2017, 12:55:36 AM »
I am familiar with the destruction of the manuscripts and the use of the Roman Canon in the Liturgy but I have never before seen it claimed they had to use Latin.  Can you provide a citation?
Unfortunately, no.  I read about this in one of the many Maronite websites about its history, but my memory fails me to pinpoint which one.


However, all nations were forced to use the Tridentine liturgy and the Latin language, even when their own liturgy used the vernacular, like in Spain, France, Ireland.
I am not inclined to believe it then.  I have read numerous scholarly works about the Maronites as well as talked with Maronite priests and never heard this claim made.  The Roman Canon as well as parts of the Roman Ritual were translated into Syriac, what would the need have been if they were using Latin.

Of course there's the question of when the translation was done.
It started in the 1500s but the 1700s saw the bulk of importations from the Roman Ritual approved at the Synod of Mt Lebanon in 1736.

"1700s" leaves a lot of time for there to have been a period Latin was imposed.
Latin wasn't imposed.  In the long history of the various unions Latin was never imposed.  In fact most Latinizations wer superficial things like vestements and clerical garb.  Do some research instead of believing " this one website said" just because it suits your bias.

I didn't see the poster claim "one website said," but I do see you are using only yourself as authority here.
That is because I know what I am talking about and proven it time and again here and elsewhere.

No, you can't just claim someone's wrong because you said so.
Not because I said so, because I know so.  That I am uninclined to do your research for you doesn't make it not so.  But I did find one reference for you.

Which apparently says nothing about the supposed preservation of Syriac. And it's not my research to back up your claim the Maronites are wrong about their history.
Then your reading skills are impaired, it clearly states the Roman Canon was translated into Syriac.  And again Sharbel offered no evidence for his claim.

When was it translated?
Had you bothered to read the article you would know the 1594 edition translated the Latin Institution Narrative into Syriac.  The 1716 edition translated the entire Roman Canon into Syriac.

Then that's pretty good circumstantial evidence for your claim, yes.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline youssef

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #49 on: July 10, 2017, 02:17:51 AM »
We cannot take it in a serious way what the melkite write about the maronite, (most of the writing that maronite are monothelist are melkite origine). We cannot take the melkite seriously before their change in 19th century ;D

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #50 on: August 05, 2017, 07:23:38 PM »
Maronites were Monothelites.
Some groups, primarily in Crete, away from their original territory, did indeed fall into Monothelitism, though they eventually rejected it still in the first millennium.  It's unfortunate that such an instance is still lazily used to tarnish the whole Maronite Church throughout time and space.


Having said that, the latinizations, forced and voluntary, are utterly painful to witness.

Have you tried the Syriac Catholic Church or the Syro-Malankara Orthodox Church?  Their liturgy looks much closer to the West Syriac liturgy of the Syriac Orthodox, in turn closer to the ancient Maronite liturgy, which was derived from it, than the Maronite Church.   The former uses Latin style vestments rather than the Indian-made vestments which predominate in Syriac Orthodoxy.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #51 on: August 06, 2017, 03:21:26 PM »
Have you tried the Syriac Catholic Church or the Syro-Malankara Orthodox Church?
I would have a hard time joining an uniate Church or an Oriental Orthodox Church.  The former ones would feel as beating around the bush; the latter ones would miss half of the Ecumenical Councils that the Churches in both East and West share.


But, more than the liturgy, finding the True Faith is what ranks the highest for me.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #52 on: August 06, 2017, 04:47:19 PM »
Maronites were Monothelites.
Alpo, where can I find out more about the Maronites being Monothelites? Some of my trad Catholic friends always put the Maronite church on a pedestal because they were never out of communion with Rome and are less affected by Vatican II. I'd like to know when they stopped being Monothelites too.
Less affected? ??? I  hardly can't find an Eastern Catholic Church more affected by Vatican II than Maronite one.


As for Italo-Albanian Church, I find some of their chants (Byzantine hymns in Greek chanted in polyphony) quite interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSm7aSh8DSk3H2csuh57Sgg/videos?sort=dd&view=0&shelf_id=0
https://www.youtube.com/user/pgavril2010/videos

Some of their hymns still retain (somewhat) their Byzantine pedigree but have been definitely influenced by western principles of tonality. 
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Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #53 on: August 06, 2017, 08:14:32 PM »
Have you tried the Syriac Catholic Church or the Syro-Malankara Orthodox Church?
I would have a hard time joining an uniate Church or an Oriental Orthodox Church.  The former ones would feel as beating around the bush; the latter ones would miss half of the Ecumenical Councils that the Churches in both East and West share.


But, more than the liturgy, finding the True Faith is what ranks the highest for me.

Totally agree with you. Uniate church just does not work. And many RCs just want to use Uniate church as the tool to steal sheep from EO or OO.
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Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #54 on: August 06, 2017, 08:18:43 PM »
I feel very disgusting by the RCs attitude toward Uniates...They see Uniates as the "model" of so called "unity"...

RCs want to use Uniates to steal sheep from EO or OO.
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #55 on: August 06, 2017, 08:27:56 PM »
Totally agree with you. Uniate church just does not work. And many RCs just want to use Uniate church as the tool to steal sheep from EO or OO.
I personally know Roman Catholics who were getting too close to Orthodoxy for their own comfort and settled for an Eastern Catholic Church.

I am not privy to the motives of all, but, if I put myself in their shoes, I can understand them.  Some are perhaps seeking a proper liturgy and cannot embrace all the teachings of Orthodoxy, when an Eastern Catholic Church is probably the best answer.  However, the liturgy, the feasts, the theology of such Churches would still conflict with the Roman Catholic teachings.  Methinks that many will die before they notice them; a few perhaps do notice them, but are still comfortable living the Faith in their particular Church.

Now, I know that historically the Eastern Catholic Churches were used as tools for proselytism among the Orthodox, but I'm unsure that it's still the case. 
« Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 08:28:08 PM by Sharbel »
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #56 on: August 06, 2017, 08:41:29 PM »
I feel very disgusting by the RCs attitude toward Uniates...They see Uniates as the "model" of so called "unity"...

RCs want to use Uniates to steal sheep from EO or OO.
Again, this seems to have been the case after the Council of Florence, but my impression is that, if it was ever the case, it's been abandoned as a model of unity by Rome.

As an Eastern Catholic however, I say that the way in which such Churches have been controlled and oppressed by Rome over the centuries up to the present is a sure way to keep the Orthodox Churches away.  The utter disrespect of their autonomy, traditions, theology, liturgy and teachings deprived them of an authentic ecclesial life that their affirmation since Pope St. JPII did little to change.  The damage was done over several generations of clergymen, which solidifies the current state of things.

In spite of the positive gesture towards respecting them, they still are expected to affirm Roman dogmas and use adaptations in their liturgies that only make sense in Roman theology.  Not to mention that they only have at best a limited autonomy, as all patriarchs and metropolitans are subject to a mere cardinal, nothing but a papal bureaucrat.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 08:42:43 PM by Sharbel »
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #57 on: August 06, 2017, 10:50:38 PM »
I feel very disgusting by the RCs attitude toward Uniates...They see Uniates as the "model" of so called "unity"...

RCs want to use Uniates to steal sheep from EO or OO.
Again, this seems to have been the case after the Council of Florence, but my impression is that, if it was ever the case, it's been abandoned as a model of unity by Rome.



No, it hasn't, at least not officially.  When the meeting from which came the Balamand Declaration was going on (1993), the Orthodox Churches specifically demanded that prelates from the Eastern Catholic Churches not be allowed to attend because, even as EP Bartholomew has stated time and again (to his credit) the Eastern Churches are NOT a model of unity (though he seems t have backpedaled on this in the last decade). What did the Catholics do? Brought them anyway.  So much for the RC negotiating in good faith. The EOs present basically just swallowed their anger and let the dialogue continue anyway.

Read the Balamand Declaration essentially means that the Orthodox recognize the RC as a "sister church" as well as recognizing all those churches under her jurisidction, including those "Greek Catholic" churches or "unia" churches.  Even if the Unia was not recognized and done away with according to the Balamand agreement, why are those churches then still there? 
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #58 on: August 06, 2017, 11:17:17 PM »
No, it hasn't, at least not officially.  When the meeting from which came the Balamand Declaration...
I'm not an expert in the relationship between the Roman Church, the uniate Churches and the Orthodox Churches.  My own Church has no corresponding Orthodox Church, as the Maronite Church has existed since the 5th century, so such issues never captured my attention beyond curiosity.
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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #59 on: August 06, 2017, 11:31:03 PM »
The title of this thread is really misleading.  It hasn't been about the Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church since the first reply.  It's all about the Maronites.
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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #60 on: August 07, 2017, 12:37:50 PM »
All,

Please bear in mind that "Uniate" is a term specifically prohibited by the forum rules.  Review them and contact a moderator if you have any questions, but any further use of the term may result in warnings.   

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #61 on: August 09, 2017, 02:19:25 AM »
The title of this thread is really misleading.  It hasn't been about the Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church since the first reply.  It's all about the Maronites.

They're both Roman, right?
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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #62 on: August 09, 2017, 09:22:51 AM »
The title of this thread is really misleading.  It hasn't been about the Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church since the first reply.  It's all about the Maronites.

They're both Roman, right?

It's like having a thread titled "The Romanian Orthodox Church" and the whole thing is about the Serbian Church.  I thought about requesting that the mods split off the tangential discussion - because I am genuinely interested in learning about the Italo-Albanian Church - but they would be pruning it back to the first post.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #63 on: August 11, 2017, 12:46:52 AM »
The title of this thread is really misleading.  It hasn't been about the Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church since the first reply.  It's all about the Maronites.
Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread, though that's exactly what's happened.  :(
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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #64 on: August 11, 2017, 08:02:12 AM »
The title of this thread is really misleading.  It hasn't been about the Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church since the first reply.  It's all about the Maronites.
Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread, though that's exactly what's happened.  :(

I'm not assigning blame to anyone.  Perhaps the thread should be split though, and we could actually begin a discussion of the Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church in this thread.  You know how people comb these boards for old threads when they're looking for knowledge.  Imagine their disappointment upon finding this thread.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #65 on: August 12, 2017, 12:48:52 AM »
If memory serves, the Italo Albanian Greek Church is the remnant of the Byzantines who lived in Sicily when it was part of that empire until it was lost to the Muslims, between the 9th and 10th centuries.  Unfortunately, when the area was reconquered from the pagans by the Normans - always the Franks - a century later, already after the Great Schism, they suffered the violence to their liturgy and traditions by forced latinization, as all Eastern Churches had to endure after uniting themselves to the Roman Church.  However, I am not aware of the extent that they suffered and how much of their Byzantine roots was restored later or to this day.



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