Author Topic: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.  (Read 2287 times)

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Offline Isaiah53IsMessiah

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Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« on: May 04, 2017, 06:18:58 AM »
The Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church is considered the only Eastern Catholic Church to have never been out of communion with Rome (alongside the Syriac Maronite Church which was also never out of communion with Rome). The Italo-Albanian Church is a Byzantine Church, thus it uses Byzantine Liturgy and customs/traditions. It currently numbers over 60,000 faithful, most of whom live in southern Italy and Sicily, with some immigrants to the United States as well. You can read more about their history here: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08206a.htm I hope you find interest. God bless. Christ is risen!
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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2017, 07:31:28 AM »
Maronites were Monothelites.

I went to an Italo-Albanian liturgy once. Recognizably Byzantine but fairly Novus Ordo-ish. The church (San Nicolò dei Greci, Palermo, Italy) was nice though.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
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Offline servulus

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2017, 08:38:17 AM »
Maronites were Monothelites.
Alpo, where can I find out more about the Maronites being Monothelites? Some of my trad Catholic friends always put the Maronite church on a pedestal because they were never out of communion with Rome and are less affected by Vatican II. I'd like to know when they stopped being Monothelites too.

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2017, 10:03:47 AM »
Maronites were Monothelites.
Alpo, where can I find out more about the Maronites being Monothelites? Some of my trad Catholic friends always put the Maronite church on a pedestal because they were never out of communion with Rome and are less affected by Vatican II. I'd like to know when they stopped being Monothelites too.
Less affected? ??? I  hardly can't find an Eastern Catholic Church more affected by Vatican II than Maronite one.


As for Italo-Albanian Church, I find some of their chants (Byzantine hymns in Greek chanted in polyphony) quite interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSm7aSh8DSk3H2csuh57Sgg/videos?sort=dd&view=0&shelf_id=0
https://www.youtube.com/user/pgavril2010/videos
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Offline juliogb

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2017, 10:54:52 AM »
Is there a arbërëshe italo-albanian orthodox church?

Offline servulus

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2017, 12:40:39 PM »

Less affected? ??? I  hardly can't find an Eastern Catholic Church more affected by Vatican II than Maronite one.

[/quote]
I know. I meant that they like it because it's not as bad as a regular RC parish.

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2017, 01:08:22 PM »
Maronites were Monothelites.

I went to an Italo-Albanian liturgy once. Recognizably Byzantine but fairly Novus Ordo-ish. The church (San Nicolò dei Greci, Palermo, Italy) was nice though.
ive been to Santa Maria dell'Armiraglio in the same city and it was very Byzantine. Down to the language used.
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Offline Isaiah53IsMessiah

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2017, 04:18:50 PM »
Maronites were Monothelites.

You can read more about the Maronite's and their history here: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09683c.htm
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Offline Isaiah53IsMessiah

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2017, 04:38:46 PM »
Alpo, where can I find out more about the Maronites being Monothelites? Some of my trad Catholic friends always put the Maronite church on a pedestal because they were never out of communion with Rome and are less affected by Vatican II. I'd like to know when they stopped being Monothelites too.
Less affected? ??? I  hardly can't find an Eastern Catholic Church more affected by Vatican II than Maronite one.

The Eastern Churches were affected both good and bad by Vatican II. Vatican II wanted and encouraged the Eastern Churches to keep their traditions and not to fall into Latinizations.

Quote
5. History, tradition and abundant ecclesiastical institutions bear outstanding witness to the great merit owing to the Eastern Churches by the universal Church.(5) The Sacred Council, therefore, not only accords to this ecclesiastical and spiritual heritage the high regard which is its due and rightful praise, but also unhesitatingly looks on it as the heritage of the universal Church. For this reason it solemnly declares that the Churches of the East, as much as those of the West, have a full right and are in duty bound to rule themselves, each in accordance with its own established disciplines, since all these are praiseworthy by reason of their venerable antiquity, more harmonious with the character of their faithful and more suited to the promotion of the good of souls.

6. All members of the Eastern Rite should know and be convinced that they can and should always preserve their legitimate liturgical rite and their established way of life, and that these may not be altered except to obtain for themselves an organic improvement. All these, then, must be observed by the members of the Eastern rites themselves. Besides, they should attain to an ever greater knowledge and a more exact use of them, and, if in their regard they have fallen short owing to contingencies of times and persons, they should take steps to return to their ancestral traditions.

Those who, by reason of their office or apostolic ministries, are in frequent communication with the Eastern Churches or their faithful should be instructed according as their office demands in the knowledge and veneration of the rites, discipline, doctrine, history and character of the members of the Eastern rites.(6) To enhance the efficacy of their apostolate, Religious and associations of the Latin Rite working in Eastern countries or among Eastern faithful are earnestly counseled to found houses or even provinces of the Eastern rite, as far as this can be done.(7)
- ORIENTALIUM ECCLESIARUM [PRESERVATION OF THE SPIRITUAL HERITAGE OF THE EASTERN CHURCHES]

Quote
22. Eastern clerics and Religious should celebrate in accordance with the prescriptions and traditions of their own established custom the Divine Office, which from ancient times has been held in high honor in all Eastern Churches.(27) The faithful too should follow the example of their forebears and assist devoutly as occasion allows at the Divine Office.
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On the one hand, many Latinizations were done away with. I've seen some pictures of Maronite liturgy before Vatican II and it looked no different from the Latin Mass. Today it looks more in line with Syriac liturgy. But there certainly are still some Latinizations, like versus populum, taken from the Mass of Pope Paul VI, is being widely used by the Maronites. Hopefully these kind of practices will start fading away. Actually, a lot of the Latinizations in the Syriac Churches have been fading away throughout the last decade, which is what Rome itself encourages.

It seems to me that the Byzantines were the best affected by the changes of Vatican II. I hear the Ukrainian Greek Catholics had the worst of the Latinizations. But from what I can tell their liturgy now looks no different from any other Byzantine liturgy. Forgive me, I am not Byzantine so I am not as familiar with the customs of the Byzantines. But I don't really see any huge Latinizations in any of the Byzantine
rite Catholic Churches. I mean from time to time they do indeed happen, but seem rather minute.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 04:44:47 PM by Isaiah53IsMessiah »
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Offline servulus

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2017, 05:52:26 PM »
Maronites were Monothelites.

You can read more about the Maronite's and their history here: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09683c.htm
Thanks for the link.

Offline Dominika

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2017, 05:53:42 PM »
I've seen some pictures of Maronite liturgy before Vatican II and it looked no different from the Latin Mass. Today it looks more in line with Syriac liturgy.
I've seen some pictures of Maronite bishops, the beginning of the XX century:




And now:





It seems to me that the Byzantines were the best affected by the changes of Vatican II. I hear the Ukrainian Greek Catholics had the worst of the Latinizations. But from what I can tell their liturgy now looks no different from any other Byzantine liturgy.
It does look different, at least in the case of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in Poland. And I do not mean Rusyn or Ukrainian minor traditions that are Orthodox, but some clearly Latin influences.


It seems to me that the Byzantines were the best affected by the changes of Vatican II.

And
Forgive me, I am not Byzantine so I am not as familiar with the customs of the Byzantines. But I don't really see any huge Latinizations in any of the Byzantine
rite Catholic Churches. I mean from time to time they do indeed happen, but seem rather minute.

You are contradicting yourself. But latinisations in the Eastern Catholic Churches are not the topic of the thread, so I don't want to develop here the discussion.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 06:30:02 AM by Dominika »
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Offline servulus

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2017, 06:31:49 PM »
I found this:
Quote
Two centuries after Maron's death, the community which grew up around the monastery, embracing Monothelitism, rejected the teaching of the Fifth Ecumenical Council, separating from the Orthodox Church. The resultant body, eventually entering into union with Rome in the 12th century, became what is known today as the Maronite Catholic Church.
at https://orthodoxwiki.org/Maron_of_Syria

This makes more sense to me.

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2017, 08:10:29 PM »
The Maronites were loyal to Rome because Rome was the originator of the Monothelite heresy. They eventually rejected that position after accepting Roman supremacy in the 12th century.
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Offline Isaiah53IsMessiah

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2017, 09:09:38 PM »
How do I post pictures?
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2017, 09:46:11 PM »
How do I post pictures?
Paste the url between [img ]http://(delete space and http://) and[/img] or upload it at "attachments and other options".[/i]
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 09:47:33 PM by RaphaCam »
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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2017, 03:03:38 AM »
Maronites were Monothelites.

I went to an Italo-Albanian liturgy once. Recognizably Byzantine but fairly Novus Ordo-ish. The church (San Nicolò dei Greci, Palermo, Italy) was nice though.
ive been to Santa Maria dell'Armiraglio in the same city and it was very Byzantine. Down to the language used.

Perhaps it's up to the priest who's celebrating the liturgy. I don't know if I went to some Hyperdox you filthy U-people -mode but I recall sitting there and thinking how seemed like. It was beautiful but didn't seem very Eastern.

Not saying that there would be something wrong with latinizations. It's their tradition. Perhaps they like it that way.

Maronites were Monothelites.

You can read more about the Maronite's and their history here: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09683c.htm

Thanks. A quote from that link:

Quote
Why the monks of Beit-Marun, hitherto so faithful to the Byzantine emperors, should have deserted them when they returned to orthodoxy, we do not know; but it is certain that in this defection the Maronite Church and nation had its origin, and that the name Maronite thenceforward becomes a synonym for Monothelite, as well with Byzantine as with Nestorian or Monophysite writers. Says the Chronicle of Michael the Syrian, referring to this period: "The Maronites remained as they are now. They ordain a patriarch and bishops from their convent. They are separated from Maximus, in that they confess only one will in Christ,[--]
« Last Edit: May 06, 2017, 03:09:47 AM by Alpo »
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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2017, 07:03:37 AM »
As for Maronites being latinised, just look at this pontificial Easter Mass:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gk2Cym60NY0
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Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2017, 10:57:34 AM »
I know that the Southern Part of Italy used to belong to Byzantine Empire.

The Italo-Greek communities they used Byzantine Liturgy in the past.

However after the Norman conquest they were forced to adopt Latin Rite.

I don't think there are any Italo-Greek Catholic churches or Italo-Greek Orthodox churches exist in this World. 
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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2017, 11:04:20 AM »
I know that the Southern Part of Italy used to belong to Byzantine Empire.

The Italo-Greek communities they used Byzantine Liturgy in the past.

However after the Norman conquest they were forced to adopt Latin Rite.

I don't think there are any Italo-Greek Catholic churches or Italo-Greek Orthodox churches exist in this World.

Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic churches continue to exist in Southern Italy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italo-Albanian_Greek_Catholic_Church

I think some forum members have actually visited a few.
Quote
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2017, 11:52:54 AM »
Maronites were Monothelites.
Some groups, primarily in Crete, away from their original territory, did indeed fall into Monothelitism, though they eventually rejected it still in the first millennium.  It's unfortunate that such an instance is still lazily used to tarnish the whole Maronite Church throughout time and space.


Having said that, the latinizations, forced and voluntary, are utterly painful to witness.
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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2017, 12:22:52 PM »
Maronites were Monothelites.
Some groups, primarily in Crete, away from their original territory, did indeed fall into Monothelitism, though they eventually rejected it still in the first millennium.  It's unfortunate that such an instance is still lazily used to tarnish the whole Maronite Church throughout time and space.


Having said that, the latinizations, forced and voluntary, are utterly painful to witness.

Does non-latonized Maronite tradition actually exist anymore?
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2017, 01:01:02 PM »
The Maronites were loyal to Rome because Rome was the originator of the Monothelite heresy. They eventually rejected that position after accepting Roman supremacy in the 12th century.

Wrong.  Patriarch Sergius of Constantinopleand Emperor Heraclius were the originators of Monothelitism.  Pope Honorius failed to condemn it but did not come up with it.
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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2017, 01:14:19 PM »
Maronites were Monothelites.
Some groups, primarily in Crete, away from their original territory, did indeed fall into Monothelitism, though they eventually rejected it still in the first millennium.  It's unfortunate that such an instance is still lazily used to tarnish the whole Maronite Church throughout time and space.


Having said that, the latinizations, forced and voluntary, are utterly painful to witness.

Does non-latonized Maronite tradition actually exist anymore?

I guess it will depend on your definition of latinization but this parish is commendable.

http://www.ourladysmaronite.org/node/21
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 01:17:15 PM by Deacon Lance »
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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2017, 01:47:32 PM »
The Maronites were loyal to Rome because Rome was the originator of the Monothelite heresy. They eventually rejected that position after accepting Roman supremacy in the 12th century.

Wrong.  Patriarch Sergius of Constantinopleand Emperor Heraclius were the originators of Monothelitism.  Pope Honorius failed to condemn it but did not come up with it.

Now that you went there, they'll find a way to blame us for it. 
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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2017, 11:49:04 PM »
Some groups, primarily in Cyprus, away from their original territory, did indeed fall into Monothelitism, though they eventually rejected it still in the first millennium.  It's unfortunate that such an instance is still lazily used to tarnish the whole Maronite Church throughout time and space.

Having said that, the latinizations, forced and voluntary, are utterly painful to witness.

Does non-latonized Maronite tradition actually exist anymore?
As far as I can tell, not outside of ancient books that survived the Counter Reformation purge after the Council of Trent, when all liturgical books were burned by papal legates and the Maronites forced to use the Tridentine liturgy in Latin.
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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2017, 12:00:52 AM »
Some groups, primarily in Cyprus, away from their original territory, did indeed fall into Monothelitism, though they eventually rejected it still in the first millennium.  It's unfortunate that such an instance is still lazily used to tarnish the whole Maronite Church throughout time and space.

Having said that, the latinizations, forced and voluntary, are utterly painful to witness.

Does non-latonized Maronite tradition actually exist anymore?
As far as I can tell, not outside of ancient books that survived the Counter Reformation purge after the Council of Trent, when all liturgical books were burned by papal legates and the Maronites forced to use the Tridentine liturgy in Latin.
I am familiar with the destruction of the manuscripts and the use of the Roman Canon in the Liturgy but I have never before seen it claimed they had to use Latin.  Can you provide a citation?
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2017, 12:26:43 AM »
I am familiar with the destruction of the manuscripts and the use of the Roman Canon in the Liturgy but I have never before seen it claimed they had to use Latin.  Can you provide a citation?
Unfortunately, no.  I read about this in one of the many Maronite websites about its history, but my memory fails me to pinpoint which one.


However, all nations were forced to use the Tridentine liturgy and the Latin language, even when their own liturgy used the vernacular, like in Spain, France, Ireland.
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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2017, 12:58:56 PM »
Some groups, primarily in Cyprus, away from their original territory, did indeed fall into Monothelitism, though they eventually rejected it still in the first millennium.  It's unfortunate that such an instance is still lazily used to tarnish the whole Maronite Church throughout time and space.

Having said that, the latinizations, forced and voluntary, are utterly painful to witness.

Does non-latonized Maronite tradition actually exist anymore?
As far as I can tell, not outside of ancient books that survived the Counter Reformation purge after the Council of Trent, when all liturgical books were burned by papal legates and the Maronites forced to use the Tridentine liturgy in Latin.

They did that to you guys too?!?!
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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2017, 01:44:19 PM »
I am familiar with the destruction of the manuscripts and the use of the Roman Canon in the Liturgy but I have never before seen it claimed they had to use Latin.  Can you provide a citation?
Unfortunately, no.  I read about this in one of the many Maronite websites about its history, but my memory fails me to pinpoint which one.


However, all nations were forced to use the Tridentine liturgy and the Latin language, even when their own liturgy used the vernacular, like in Spain, France, Ireland.
I am not inclined to believe it then.  I have read numerous scholarly works about the Maronites as well as talked with Maronite priests and never heard this claim made.  The Roman Canon as well as parts of the Roman Ritual were translated into Syriac, what would the need have been if they were using Latin.
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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2017, 01:51:00 PM »
Some groups, primarily in Cyprus, away from their original territory, did indeed fall into Monothelitism, though they eventually rejected it still in the first millennium.  It's unfortunate that such an instance is still lazily used to tarnish the whole Maronite Church throughout time and space.

Having said that, the latinizations, forced and voluntary, are utterly painful to witness.

Does non-latonized Maronite tradition actually exist anymore?
As far as I can tell, not outside of ancient books that survived the Counter Reformation purge after the Council of Trent, when all liturgical books were burned by papal legates and the Maronites forced to use the Tridentine liturgy in Latin.

They did that to you guys too?!?!

Not nearly as thouroughly, however.  Some manuscripts survived.

Good article:
http://www.syriacstudies.com/AFSS/Syriac_Articles_in_English/Entries/2007/10/14_Maronites_and_the_Anaphora_of_Patriach_Mikhail_the_Great-_Fadi_BARUDI.html
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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2017, 05:05:01 PM »
I am familiar with the destruction of the manuscripts and the use of the Roman Canon in the Liturgy but I have never before seen it claimed they had to use Latin.  Can you provide a citation?
Unfortunately, no.  I read about this in one of the many Maronite websites about its history, but my memory fails me to pinpoint which one.


However, all nations were forced to use the Tridentine liturgy and the Latin language, even when their own liturgy used the vernacular, like in Spain, France, Ireland.
I am not inclined to believe it then.  I have read numerous scholarly works about the Maronites as well as talked with Maronite priests and never heard this claim made.  The Roman Canon as well as parts of the Roman Ritual were translated into Syriac, what would the need have been if they were using Latin.

Of course there's the question of when the translation was done.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2017, 08:13:26 PM »
I am familiar with the destruction of the manuscripts and the use of the Roman Canon in the Liturgy but I have never before seen it claimed they had to use Latin.  Can you provide a citation?
Unfortunately, no.  I read about this in one of the many Maronite websites about its history, but my memory fails me to pinpoint which one.


However, all nations were forced to use the Tridentine liturgy and the Latin language, even when their own liturgy used the vernacular, like in Spain, France, Ireland.
I am not inclined to believe it then.  I have read numerous scholarly works about the Maronites as well as talked with Maronite priests and never heard this claim made.  The Roman Canon as well as parts of the Roman Ritual were translated into Syriac, what would the need have been if they were using Latin.

Of course there's the question of when the translation was done.
It started in the 1500s but the 1700s saw the bulk of importations from the Roman Ritual approved at the Synod of Mt Lebanon in 1736.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2017, 09:04:55 PM »
I am familiar with the destruction of the manuscripts and the use of the Roman Canon in the Liturgy but I have never before seen it claimed they had to use Latin.  Can you provide a citation?
Unfortunately, no.  I read about this in one of the many Maronite websites about its history, but my memory fails me to pinpoint which one.


However, all nations were forced to use the Tridentine liturgy and the Latin language, even when their own liturgy used the vernacular, like in Spain, France, Ireland.
I am not inclined to believe it then.  I have read numerous scholarly works about the Maronites as well as talked with Maronite priests and never heard this claim made.  The Roman Canon as well as parts of the Roman Ritual were translated into Syriac, what would the need have been if they were using Latin.

Of course there's the question of when the translation was done.
It started in the 1500s but the 1700s saw the bulk of importations from the Roman Ritual approved at the Synod of Mt Lebanon in 1736.

"1700s" leaves a lot of time for there to have been a period Latin was imposed.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2017, 09:11:16 PM »
I am familiar with the destruction of the manuscripts and the use of the Roman Canon in the Liturgy but I have never before seen it claimed they had to use Latin.  Can you provide a citation?
Unfortunately, no.  I read about this in one of the many Maronite websites about its history, but my memory fails me to pinpoint which one.


However, all nations were forced to use the Tridentine liturgy and the Latin language, even when their own liturgy used the vernacular, like in Spain, France, Ireland.
I am not inclined to believe it then.  I have read numerous scholarly works about the Maronites as well as talked with Maronite priests and never heard this claim made.  The Roman Canon as well as parts of the Roman Ritual were translated into Syriac, what would the need have been if they were using Latin.

Of course there's the question of when the translation was done.
It started in the 1500s but the 1700s saw the bulk of importations from the Roman Ritual approved at the Synod of Mt Lebanon in 1736.

"1700s" leaves a lot of time for there to have been a period Latin was imposed.
Latin wasn't imposed.  In the long history of the various unions Latin was never imposed.  In fact most Latinizations wer superficial things like vestements and clerical garb.  Do some research instead of believing " this one website said" just because it suits your bias.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2017, 09:17:33 PM »
I am familiar with the destruction of the manuscripts and the use of the Roman Canon in the Liturgy but I have never before seen it claimed they had to use Latin.  Can you provide a citation?
Unfortunately, no.  I read about this in one of the many Maronite websites about its history, but my memory fails me to pinpoint which one.


However, all nations were forced to use the Tridentine liturgy and the Latin language, even when their own liturgy used the vernacular, like in Spain, France, Ireland.
I am not inclined to believe it then.  I have read numerous scholarly works about the Maronites as well as talked with Maronite priests and never heard this claim made.  The Roman Canon as well as parts of the Roman Ritual were translated into Syriac, what would the need have been if they were using Latin.

Of course there's the question of when the translation was done.
It started in the 1500s but the 1700s saw the bulk of importations from the Roman Ritual approved at the Synod of Mt Lebanon in 1736.

"1700s" leaves a lot of time for there to have been a period Latin was imposed.
Latin wasn't imposed.  In the long history of the various unions Latin was never imposed.  In fact most Latinizations wer superficial things like vestements and clerical garb.  Do some research instead of believing " this one website said" just because it suits your bias.

I didn't see the poster claim "one website said," but I do see you are using only yourself as authority here.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Deacon Lance

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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2017, 09:45:45 PM »
I am familiar with the destruction of the manuscripts and the use of the Roman Canon in the Liturgy but I have never before seen it claimed they had to use Latin.  Can you provide a citation?
Unfortunately, no.  I read about this in one of the many Maronite websites about its history, but my memory fails me to pinpoint which one.


However, all nations were forced to use the Tridentine liturgy and the Latin language, even when their own liturgy used the vernacular, like in Spain, France, Ireland.
I am not inclined to believe it then.  I have read numerous scholarly works about the Maronites as well as talked with Maronite priests and never heard this claim made.  The Roman Canon as well as parts of the Roman Ritual were translated into Syriac, what would the need have been if they were using Latin.

Of course there's the question of when the translation was done.
It started in the 1500s but the 1700s saw the bulk of importations from the Roman Ritual approved at the Synod of Mt Lebanon in 1736.

"1700s" leaves a lot of time for there to have been a period Latin was imposed.
Latin wasn't imposed.  In the long history of the various unions Latin was never imposed.  In fact most Latinizations wer superficial things like vestements and clerical garb.  Do some research instead of believing " this one website said" just because it suits your bias.

I didn't see the poster claim "one website said," but I do see you are using only yourself as authority here.
I am familiar with the destruction of the manuscripts and the use of the Roman Canon in the Liturgy but I have never before seen it claimed they had to use Latin.  Can you provide a citation?
Unfortunately, no.  I read about this in one of the many Maronite websites about its history, but my memory fails me to pinpoint which one.


However, all nations were forced to use the Tridentine liturgy and the Latin language, even when their own liturgy used the vernacular, like in Spain, France, Ireland.
I am not inclined to believe it then.  I have read numerous scholarly works about the Maronites as well as talked with Maronite priests and never heard this claim made.  The Roman Canon as well as parts of the Roman Ritual were translated into Syriac, what would the need have been if they were using Latin.
I bolded it for you.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2017, 09:47:26 PM by Deacon Lance »
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Offline youssef

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2017, 09:46:55 PM »
The maronite who write the maronite history like patriarche Douaihy or youssef debes try to prove that the maronite was not monothelites. We know for sure that in six and seven century they was so much problem between the Jacobite and the maronite about the nature of Christ. The idea that the maronite are monothelite come from some text that can be understand in other way, that the two will of Jesus was identical, and the first patriache john maron has write against monothelites. After seven century there is no contact between maronite church and Rome.
The church has adopted the liturgy of the syriac orthodox church so they add who had crucified of us in the trisagion because of that damascene didn't accept the faith of the maronite. And there is no liturgy for maronite in the begining different then the liturgy of the syriac orthodox church. After 13 century they have bern new contact with Rome till the comunion in the 16th century, some book has been revised and some was burning.

For the Maronite liturgy now it is so much latinized

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2017, 09:48:23 PM »
I am familiar with the destruction of the manuscripts and the use of the Roman Canon in the Liturgy but I have never before seen it claimed they had to use Latin.  Can you provide a citation?
Unfortunately, no.  I read about this in one of the many Maronite websites about its history, but my memory fails me to pinpoint which one.


However, all nations were forced to use the Tridentine liturgy and the Latin language, even when their own liturgy used the vernacular, like in Spain, France, Ireland.
I am not inclined to believe it then.  I have read numerous scholarly works about the Maronites as well as talked with Maronite priests and never heard this claim made.  The Roman Canon as well as parts of the Roman Ritual were translated into Syriac, what would the need have been if they were using Latin.

Of course there's the question of when the translation was done.
It started in the 1500s but the 1700s saw the bulk of importations from the Roman Ritual approved at the Synod of Mt Lebanon in 1736.

"1700s" leaves a lot of time for there to have been a period Latin was imposed.
Latin wasn't imposed.  In the long history of the various unions Latin was never imposed.  In fact most Latinizations wer superficial things like vestements and clerical garb.  Do some research instead of believing " this one website said" just because it suits your bias.

I didn't see the poster claim "one website said," but I do see you are using only yourself as authority here.
I am familiar with the destruction of the manuscripts and the use of the Roman Canon in the Liturgy but I have never before seen it claimed they had to use Latin.  Can you provide a citation?
Unfortunately, no.  I read about this in one of the many Maronite websites about its history, but my memory fails me to pinpoint which one.


However, all nations were forced to use the Tridentine liturgy and the Latin language, even when their own liturgy used the vernacular, like in Spain, France, Ireland.
I am not inclined to believe it then.  I have read numerous scholarly works about the Maronites as well as talked with Maronite priests and never heard this claim made.  The Roman Canon as well as parts of the Roman Ritual were translated into Syriac, what would the need have been if they were using Latin.

You can't prove something by not having heard the contrary. And your paper linked above doesn't seem to say anywhere that Syriac was made the language for Masses.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2017, 09:57:15 PM »
I am familiar with the destruction of the manuscripts and the use of the Roman Canon in the Liturgy but I have never before seen it claimed they had to use Latin.  Can you provide a citation?
Unfortunately, no.  I read about this in one of the many Maronite websites about its history, but my memory fails me to pinpoint which one.


However, all nations were forced to use the Tridentine liturgy and the Latin language, even when their own liturgy used the vernacular, like in Spain, France, Ireland.
I am not inclined to believe it then.  I have read numerous scholarly works about the Maronites as well as talked with Maronite priests and never heard this claim made.  The Roman Canon as well as parts of the Roman Ritual were translated into Syriac, what would the need have been if they were using Latin.

Of course there's the question of when the translation was done.
It started in the 1500s but the 1700s saw the bulk of importations from the Roman Ritual approved at the Synod of Mt Lebanon in 1736.

"1700s" leaves a lot of time for there to have been a period Latin was imposed.
Latin wasn't imposed.  In the long history of the various unions Latin was never imposed.  In fact most Latinizations wer superficial things like vestements and clerical garb.  Do some research instead of believing " this one website said" just because it suits your bias.

I didn't see the poster claim "one website said," but I do see you are using only yourself as authority here.
That is because I know what I am talking about and proven it time and again here and elsewhere.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2017, 10:16:32 PM »
I am familiar with the destruction of the manuscripts and the use of the Roman Canon in the Liturgy but I have never before seen it claimed they had to use Latin.  Can you provide a citation?
Unfortunately, no.  I read about this in one of the many Maronite websites about its history, but my memory fails me to pinpoint which one.


However, all nations were forced to use the Tridentine liturgy and the Latin language, even when their own liturgy used the vernacular, like in Spain, France, Ireland.
I am not inclined to believe it then.  I have read numerous scholarly works about the Maronites as well as talked with Maronite priests and never heard this claim made.  The Roman Canon as well as parts of the Roman Ritual were translated into Syriac, what would the need have been if they were using Latin.

Of course there's the question of when the translation was done.
It started in the 1500s but the 1700s saw the bulk of importations from the Roman Ritual approved at the Synod of Mt Lebanon in 1736.

"1700s" leaves a lot of time for there to have been a period Latin was imposed.
Latin wasn't imposed.  In the long history of the various unions Latin was never imposed.  In fact most Latinizations wer superficial things like vestements and clerical garb.  Do some research instead of believing " this one website said" just because it suits your bias.

I didn't see the poster claim "one website said," but I do see you are using only yourself as authority here.
I am familiar with the destruction of the manuscripts and the use of the Roman Canon in the Liturgy but I have never before seen it claimed they had to use Latin.  Can you provide a citation?
Unfortunately, no.  I read about this in one of the many Maronite websites about its history, but my memory fails me to pinpoint which one.


However, all nations were forced to use the Tridentine liturgy and the Latin language, even when their own liturgy used the vernacular, like in Spain, France, Ireland.
I am not inclined to believe it then.  I have read numerous scholarly works about the Maronites as well as talked with Maronite priests and never heard this claim made.  The Roman Canon as well as parts of the Roman Ritual were translated into Syriac, what would the need have been if they were using Latin.

You can't prove something by not having heard the contrary. And your paper linked above doesn't seem to say anywhere that Syriac was made the language for Masses.
First Edition of the Book of the Maronite Qurbono
The first edition of the Maronite Book of the Qurbono was published in Rome between 1592 and 1594. The students of the Maronite College in Rome edited this edition under the supervision of the superiors of the college. This edition was taken from a manuscript written in 1566, in the Monastery of Qozhaya, Lebanon by the hermit Mikhail (al-Razzi), who later was elected patriarch (1567-1581), and who was the brother of Sarkis al-Razzi, his successor to the Patriarchal See (1581-1596).

The publishers of this edition altered the prayers of the eucharistic institution of the al-Razzi manuscript: in fact, they translated the words of consecration from Latin to Syriac. When the new edition reached the patriarch, he rejected it at once and prohibited its use. Then pressured by the papal delegate, Dandini, he accepted it on a temporary basis (1596), provided that things would soon be straightened out and the edition would be revised in accord with Maronite sources.

The Succeeding Editions
One hundred twenty years later, despite strong objections formulated in the writings of some Maronite scholars of the beginning of the seventeenth century, the second edition was published (1716). This edition proved to be more Latinized than the first one. In fact, the anaphora of the Latin Mass, translated into Syriac and Arabic, was inserted here, while the Anaphora of Sharar was removed. However, this edition, being the work of the students of the Maronite College, did not register any opposition.

The succeeding editions appeared as exact copies of this second edition, save some trimming in the pages for economic reasons: for example, the third edition (1763) included eight anaphoras instead of the fourteen in the previous editions. The same happened in the four editions published by the Monastery of Qozhaya (Lebanon) in 1816,1838,1855, and 1872. The two last official editions appeared in Beirut in 1888 and 1908 under the care of Bishop Youssef Dibs, Archbishop of Beirut. Bishop Dibs placed the Roman anaphora before the other anaphoras and amended the language of the prayers and hymns. The first edition in the Arabic alphabet was published in Jounieh (1959) by the Society of the Lebanese Missionaries. Finally, an abridged rite, called the “Simple Rite” was published in a booklet in 1973, including only one anaphora. It was used experimentally for only one year.
http://www.stmaron.org/spirituality/liturgy/qurbono-book-of-offering-divine-liturgy/

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Offline youssef

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2017, 10:27:05 PM »
We can say also that now we know who are the maronites. But in the begining we cannot identify them as one group. The maronite was the one who follow mar Maron a figure from the 5 th century. If patriache Jhon Maron has writed against monothelite, the monastry of Saint Maron has adopted monothelite after the emperor has visit them. The monastry was chalcedonian, but also some Jacobite can be follower of saint Maron.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2017, 10:38:16 PM »
I am familiar with the destruction of the manuscripts and the use of the Roman Canon in the Liturgy but I have never before seen it claimed they had to use Latin.  Can you provide a citation?
Unfortunately, no.  I read about this in one of the many Maronite websites about its history, but my memory fails me to pinpoint which one.


However, all nations were forced to use the Tridentine liturgy and the Latin language, even when their own liturgy used the vernacular, like in Spain, France, Ireland.
I am not inclined to believe it then.  I have read numerous scholarly works about the Maronites as well as talked with Maronite priests and never heard this claim made.  The Roman Canon as well as parts of the Roman Ritual were translated into Syriac, what would the need have been if they were using Latin.

Of course there's the question of when the translation was done.
It started in the 1500s but the 1700s saw the bulk of importations from the Roman Ritual approved at the Synod of Mt Lebanon in 1736.

"1700s" leaves a lot of time for there to have been a period Latin was imposed.
Latin wasn't imposed.  In the long history of the various unions Latin was never imposed.  In fact most Latinizations wer superficial things like vestements and clerical garb.  Do some research instead of believing " this one website said" just because it suits your bias.

I didn't see the poster claim "one website said," but I do see you are using only yourself as authority here.
That is because I know what I am talking about and proven it time and again here and elsewhere.

No, you can't just claim someone's wrong because you said so.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2017, 11:01:31 PM »
I am familiar with the destruction of the manuscripts and the use of the Roman Canon in the Liturgy but I have never before seen it claimed they had to use Latin.  Can you provide a citation?
Unfortunately, no.  I read about this in one of the many Maronite websites about its history, but my memory fails me to pinpoint which one.


However, all nations were forced to use the Tridentine liturgy and the Latin language, even when their own liturgy used the vernacular, like in Spain, France, Ireland.
I am not inclined to believe it then.  I have read numerous scholarly works about the Maronites as well as talked with Maronite priests and never heard this claim made.  The Roman Canon as well as parts of the Roman Ritual were translated into Syriac, what would the need have been if they were using Latin.

Of course there's the question of when the translation was done.
It started in the 1500s but the 1700s saw the bulk of importations from the Roman Ritual approved at the Synod of Mt Lebanon in 1736.

"1700s" leaves a lot of time for there to have been a period Latin was imposed.
Latin wasn't imposed.  In the long history of the various unions Latin was never imposed.  In fact most Latinizations wer superficial things like vestements and clerical garb.  Do some research instead of believing " this one website said" just because it suits your bias.

I didn't see the poster claim "one website said," but I do see you are using only yourself as authority here.
That is because I know what I am talking about and proven it time and again here and elsewhere.

No, you can't just claim someone's wrong because you said so.
Not because I said so, because I know so.  That I am uninclined to do your research for you doesn't make it not so.  But I did find one reference for you.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church.
« Reply #44 on: July 09, 2017, 11:12:32 PM »
I am familiar with the destruction of the manuscripts and the use of the Roman Canon in the Liturgy but I have never before seen it claimed they had to use Latin.  Can you provide a citation?
Unfortunately, no.  I read about this in one of the many Maronite websites about its history, but my memory fails me to pinpoint which one.


However, all nations were forced to use the Tridentine liturgy and the Latin language, even when their own liturgy used the vernacular, like in Spain, France, Ireland.
I am not inclined to believe it then.  I have read numerous scholarly works about the Maronites as well as talked with Maronite priests and never heard this claim made.  The Roman Canon as well as parts of the Roman Ritual were translated into Syriac, what would the need have been if they were using Latin.

Of course there's the question of when the translation was done.
It started in the 1500s but the 1700s saw the bulk of importations from the Roman Ritual approved at the Synod of Mt Lebanon in 1736.

"1700s" leaves a lot of time for there to have been a period Latin was imposed.
Latin wasn't imposed.  In the long history of the various unions Latin was never imposed.  In fact most Latinizations wer superficial things like vestements and clerical garb.  Do some research instead of believing " this one website said" just because it suits your bias.

I didn't see the poster claim "one website said," but I do see you are using only yourself as authority here.
That is because I know what I am talking about and proven it time and again here and elsewhere.

No, you can't just claim someone's wrong because you said so.
Not because I said so, because I know so.  That I am uninclined to do your research for you doesn't make it not so.  But I did find one reference for you.

Which apparently says nothing about the supposed preservation of Syriac. And it's not my research to back up your claim the Maronites are wrong about their history.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy