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Author Topic: What are the chances . . .  (Read 6248 times) Average Rating: 0
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arjuna3110
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« on: September 13, 2005, 11:00:53 PM »

What are the chances that the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church will reunite ?

The reason I ask is that there are efforts for the Roman Catholic pope to visit the Greek Orthodox patriarch this year.  Such a meeting would not, in all likelihood, heal the schism.  But, it does make me wonder:  will the pope and the patriarch move closer to reunion?   I am considering leaving Catholicism for Orthodoxy.  If I do so, I do not want to find myself back in the Roman Catholic Church a few years later by a reunion between pope and patriarch. 
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« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2005, 11:08:43 PM »

In all honesty I don't think it will ever happen.  The RC would have to admit it was wrong for a thousand years and was the cause of the schism.  In essence the RC must join the Orthodox Church - not two mutual bodies meeting.  Such would be impossible to most modern RCs.  Also the chaos in the RC going on right now would just not work with the Orthodox. 

And if by some miracle the RC joins the Orthodox Church then you still will have lost nothing by converting. 
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« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2005, 11:28:18 PM »

Unless you speak to someone who holds "The Branch Theory", a "re-union" is impossible from an Orthodox ecclessiological perspective because the Church can never be divided. Groups can be united to the Church, but they cannot be "re-united" because the Church cannot be "dis-united".
I know what you're asking though, and to be honest, I think not, for the same reasons as Silouan- Too many difficult compromises.
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« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2005, 05:17:47 AM »

The Catholic church has made certain things dogma which are unacceptable to the Orthodox. Since these dogmas define what it is to be a Catholic, the only way there can be union with the Orthodox Church is for Catholics to cease being Catholic.

It may sound harsh but that is the truth of the matter.

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« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2005, 06:35:11 AM »

http://oag.ru/icon/paissios.html

They'll play all sorts of tricks, but the resulting persecutions will lead Christians to unite completely. However, they won't unite in the way desired by those who are now engaging in various machinations to create a single church united under a single religious leadership. Christians will unite because the unfolding situation will naturally separate the sheep from the goats. Then the prophecy: "one flock and one shepherd" will actually come to pass.
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« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2005, 08:21:39 AM »

My brethren, in 200 years time the only thing different from today will be that the world will have super-computers,
houses on the moon and the planet will run out of oil. And yet, 100 million Orthodox, based on Paisios so-called "prophecies",
will await the end of the world and start mass suicides everytime the year date ends with a 6. Do not fool yourselves.
The so-called Last times theory is something I would expect to hear from a Jehovah's Witness and a Protestant.
You should know better.
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« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2005, 08:48:22 AM »

http://oag.ru/icon/paissios.html

They'll play all sorts of tricks, but the resulting persecutions will lead Christians to unite completely. However, they won't unite in the way desired by those who are now engaging in various machinations to create a single church united under a single religious leadership. Christians will unite because the unfolding situation will naturally separate the sheep from the goats. Then the prophecy: "one flock and one shepherd" will actually come to pass.


Orthodox prophesy?  Interesting.  However, I think it needs separate discussion.  (Here, I was just asking for people's opinions on whether Rome and Constantinople will "reunite.")  Hence, I started a thread for the topic of Orthodox prophesy at  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=7141.0
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« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2005, 09:14:41 AM »

I started a thread for the topic of Orthodox prophesy atÂÂ  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=7141.0 .ÂÂ  

Oh please don't.
This nonsense already has a thread here.
And as was pointed out on that thread, this is not able to be substantiated as the words of Elder Paisios. It is an english translation of a russian translation of a greek translation of what someone claims the Holy Elder said.
My cat vomits up more substantial things than this.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2005, 09:30:36 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2005, 11:50:34 AM »

Wow. You're kind of a nasty character, aren't ya?  Wink

Seriously, are we to submit our new threads to you for your approval (or your cat's perhaps)? Is he not free to offer his own threads of personal interest to him and you are just as free to ignore them, rather than belittle him for such?
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« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2005, 12:23:21 PM »

Wow. You're kind of a nasty character, aren't ya?ÂÂ  Wink

Seriously, are we to submit our new threads to you for your approval (or your cat's perhaps)? Is he not free to offer his own threads of personal interest to him and you are just as free to ignore them, rather than belittle him for such?

Just as arjuna is free to begin his own threads, ozgeorge ought to likewise be free to either ignore them OR belittle them; depending on what he believes they diserve.
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arjuna3110
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« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2005, 12:45:01 PM »

Dear Stamfordguy,

While I appreciate your desire to stand up for me and my right to start a thread, I really do not think that was necessary. 

Ozgeorge was not attacking me personally.  He was responding to a topic which has already been discussed in another thread (which he gave the link to).  He was also pointing out, in a humorous way, how much he dislikes that topic as a whole.  And, his remark about his cat made me chuckle.  Also, I have read posts by Ozgeorge; and I have found him to be civil and polite and on-point and usually with something of substance to consider.

Finally, I think Ozgeorge's response to my thread on prophesy summed up matters well.  The question I asked was, "Is there other Orthodox prophesy that suggests that we are entering a period of severe testing and, perhaps the Last Judgement?"  And Ozgeorge sagely responded,

Yes, we have a great Saint who was much beloved by Christ who prophesized that:
"Little children, it is the last days: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last days." (1 John 2:18)
You don't get much more of an Orthodox source than that.

(http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=7141.0)

Well said.  And, on that note, I think, we should let the matter rest.






Wow. You're kind of a nasty character, aren't ya?ÂÂ  Wink

Seriously, are we to submit our new threads to you for your approval (or your cat's perhaps)? Is he not free to offer his own threads of personal interest to him and you are just as free to ignore them, rather than belittle him for such?
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« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2005, 01:03:34 PM »

Quote
Oh please don't.
This nonsense already has a thread here.
And as was pointed out on that thread, this is not able to be substantiated as the words of Elder Paisios. It is an english translation of a russian translation of a greek translation of what someone claims the Holy Elder said.
My cat vomits up more substantial things than this.

Things can get lost from the translation, but... are you sure this cannot be attributed to the Holy Elder?

He's said lots of stuff, and you can find them at www.rel.gr in the greek texts.
To be honest I can't find the specific text which is talking about the reunion of the Churches in that specific site, but why dumb it as rubbish?

You can find almost all the rest of it in random sites now and there, concerning the Orthodox faith.


After all, the prophecy of Moni Koutloummoussiou says the same thing.
http://athos.alexsoft.gr/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=171&topic=97.0

"19. Παύσις πολέμου υπό Αγγέλου Χριστού και παράδοσις Πόλεως τοις Έλλησι.

20. Υπόκυψις Λατίνων εις την αλάνθαστον πίστιν Ορθοδόξων. = The Latins will subdue to the infallible faith of the Orthodox

21. Εξωθήσεται Ορθόδοξος Πίστις από Ανατολών μέχρι Δυσμών.

22. Φόβος και τρόμος βαρβάρων υπ' αυτής.

23. Πτώσις του Πάπα και ανακήρυξις ενός Πατριάρχου δι' όλην την Ευρώπην. = Fall of the Pope, and declaration of a Patriarch for all of Europe.
"

Which I believe you will probably accuse as being a false prophecy, because you do not know the name of the author. Am I right?

Will you find this more credible? Half of it has already happened, eitherway.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2005, 01:10:22 PM by Ntinos » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2005, 01:39:30 PM »

What are the chances that the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church will reunite ?

Barring a miracle, none whatsoever. Each is irreparably wed to their assertions of their own authority, and neither will ever have the guts to back down from those assertions.
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« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2005, 02:49:28 PM »

Quote
After all, the prophecy of Moni Koutloummoussiou says the same thing.
 

Considering that is the monastery in which Elder Paisios spent much of his ascetical life, I would venture to assume it is the same prophecy, not a seperate prophecy saying the same thing. 
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« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2005, 03:14:42 PM »

Actually, the past of that prophesy is clouded with mystery. Some say it was written in 1053, others in 1503, while others in 1603.

And the elder reposed in 1994.

What you're saying is that the holy elder borrowed the prophesy from that text?
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« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2005, 04:17:47 PM »

Out of curiosity how much time have you spent on Agion Oros?  At this particular monastery even?
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Ntinos
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« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2005, 04:26:11 PM »

Out of curiosity how much time have you spent on Agion Oros?  At this particular monastery even?

I haven't been there at all.
What I am saying comes from what is written before the prophecy at the page: http://athos.alexsoft.gr/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=171&topic=97.0

If you do not believe what I wrote before, feel free to ask the guy who wrote it on the other forum. I believe you can recognise the dates without knowing greek, however.

Still, you might find the prophecy on Vladimir Moss' "The book of the End", on page 163, the prophecy is there.
And if you would like an alternative, at page 172 of the same book, you can find the following prophecy:

10. Martyr-Eldress Duniushka of Siberia (+1918):
     "Russia will be supreme in the world. Her name will be ‘Holy Rus’. All sects and religions will pour into Orthodoxy…. But Orthodoxy, and -- essentially speaking -- religion, will draw closer to what it was in Apostolic times. . . . In those centuries to come, there will no longer be any tsars or kings. In ‘Holy Rus’,’ a Prince will reign, who will come from the nation that gave us our religion [i.e., Byzantium]. He will be a supremely spiritual person, who will provide the opportunity for uplifting the moral fibre and the spiritual principles of the nation….

If anyone believes these prophecies are false, please contact the author of that book.
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« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2005, 04:44:33 PM »

neither will ever have the guts to back down from those assertions.

Or one might have the *sense* not to back down from the Truth.
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« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2005, 05:11:22 PM »

Or one might have the *sense* not to back down from the Truth.

Since at least one of them is wrong, at least one of them is substituting cowardice (for some other negative impulse-- your choice as to which) for sense.
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« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2005, 06:26:53 PM »

Quote
I haven't been there at all.

That I would say is the first problem.ÂÂ  The same level of scholarship that is accepted as a bare minimun in the West is not in Greece, particularily on Agion Oros.ÂÂ  For example I saw an article on Harry Potter that listed among its sources (and the fact that it listed sources is actually quite amazing) The Onion having no idea that the "newspaper" in question was a parady / satire publication.ÂÂ  There were people that I simply could not convince that the new dollar bills in America don't have President Bush on the front and 666 on the back.ÂÂ  That type of culture I think has a certain amount of influence over these prophecies.ÂÂ  Monasticism has a definite role within the church, but one should exercise caution in turning to monastics for political advice (and funny how these prophecies end with agrandizement of Greece and destruction of Israel).

Quote
If you do not believe what I wrote before, feel free to ask the guy who wrote it on the other forum. I believe you can recognise the dates without knowing greek, however.

Interesting that you would assume that I don't know Greek; Μπορώ να διαβάσω Ελληνικά.ÂÂ  

And perhaps the biggest objection that people have to putting too much emphasis on these prophecies.ÂÂ  I have read all the published works of Elder PaÏÅ sios translated into English, skimmed most of his new biography that is only out in Greek and some other works of his in Greek.ÂÂ  Maybe I missed something but the biggest themes of his works are humility, prayer and repentence.ÂÂ  End times prophecies were hardly on the radarÂÂ  
« Last Edit: September 14, 2005, 06:29:12 PM by Silouan » Logged
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« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2005, 09:37:38 PM »

ÂÂ  Also the chaos in the RC going on right now would just not work with the Orthodox.ÂÂ  


Orthodox has it's own chaos right now... like the priests in Greece who were caught and exposed  for participating in all kinds of terrible elicit acts.  The Greek gov't. is trying to clean the 'church house' there, but it will take awhile... the GOA is struggling financially due to several 'sexual misconduct' lawsuits... which ran it into the red...  Net.. we've got real messes too... we're just so small they don't make the front page news so most Orthodox don't know...and we have a 'luxury' to keep it quiet and project a fascade of calm, peace, and perfection...  Our problems are magnified by the fact that we think only the RC church has problems... we're throwing stones from a house made of glass. I would amend the  statement above about 'reunion'  to say the chaos going on in both churches now should make both wonder where they went wrong and how to fix it... maybe some sharing of problems might work for a very interesting discussion and resolution... In the meantime, it was interesting to see Archbishop Demetrios,the Orthodox and the Catholic Charities work together for New Orleans disaster  efforts. 
I believe reunion will not be a 'megaevent', but a slow process over years of the groups coming together and working together on crises...and if guided by God, it will come together the way He intended.  We are all His creation, and it must pain Him to see segregation of His children.   

In Christ, Kizzy 
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« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2005, 06:17:24 AM »

Quote
That I would say is the first problem.  The same level of scholarship that is accepted as a bare minimun in the West is not in Greece, particularily on Agion Oros.  For example I saw an article on Harry Potter that listed among its sources (and the fact that it listed sources is actually quite amazing) The Onion having no idea that the "newspaper" in question was a parady / satire publication.  There were people that I simply could not convince that the new dollar bills in America don't have President Bush on the front and 666 on the back.  That type of culture I think has a certain amount of influence over these prophecies.  Monasticism has a definite role within the church, but one should exercise caution in turning to monastics for political advice (and funny how these prophecies end with agrandizement of Greece and destruction of Israel).


You're actually suggesting that the prophecies of the Elder are false because they suggest that... the Jews are bad and the Greeks are good?
(they don't suggest such a thing, but whatever...)

Quote
and destruction of Israel

Seems to me you're confusing the words Zionists and Jews...
Where did that come from? the Destruction of Israel?
On the contrary, Israel and the Western civilisations will win the first phase of the third world war.
Are you sure you've spent enough time examining those prophecies?

Quote
Interesting that you would assume that I don't know Greek; Μπορώ να διαβάσω Ελληνικά.

Well, yes, I thought you're a slav.

Quote
And perhaps the biggest objection that people have to putting too much emphasis on these prophecies.  I have read all the published works of Elder PaÏÅ sios translated into English, skimmed most of his new biography that is only out in Greek and some other works of his in Greek.  Maybe I missed something but the biggest themes of his works are humility, prayer and repentence.  End times prophecies were hardly on the radar

Who spoke of the end times? Do you really read what I am writing before replying?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2005, 06:18:19 AM by Ntinos » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2005, 06:39:45 AM »

You're actually suggesting that the prophecies of the Elder are false because they suggest that... the Jews are bad and the Greeks are good?
(they don't suggest such a thing, but whatever...)
Well, I'm suggesting, nay, stating they are false because neither you nor any one else has any evidence whatsoever that he in fact has said this, and nor has any Athonite monastery endorsed them.     
You believe them to be genuine simply because they are typewritten on a website with a picture of the Holy Elder.                                                                           

Seems to me you're confusing the words Zionists and Jews...
Where did that come from? the Destruction of Israel?
On the contrary, Israel and the Western civilisations will win the first phase of the third world war.
Oy veh Roll Eyes....here we go again.....

Are you sure you've spent enough time examining those prophecies?
Have you considered the possibility that you have spent far too much time "studying" them? And what is the point of "studying" something which you can't even prove the Elder said? Shouldn't you first "study" it's authenticity?

Well, yes, I thought you're a slav.
Why did you think that? Do you see how wrong you can be if you just assume things are true?

Who spoke of the end times? Do you really read what I am writing before replying?
Huh? Oh, I didn't realise that this thread was all about you.....
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« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2005, 07:00:20 AM »

are we to submit our new threads to you for your approval (or your cat's perhaps)?

LOL,  Cheesy My cat would certainly think you should submit them to him.
I see you have the warped sense of humour required for this forum......you'll fit in just fine!
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« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2005, 07:20:06 AM »

Quote
Well, I'm suggesting, nay, stating they are false because neither you nor any one else has any evidence whatsoever that he in fact has said this, and nor has any Athonite monastery endorsed them.     
You believe them to be genuine simply because they are typewritten on a website with a picture of the Holy Elder.         

No, I believe them to be true because I've found the same text in Greek, at many sites, some official of the Church, and some unofficial, and they say the same thing in greek.
In other words, I don't believe the website you mentioned, I believe the greek originals.

Quote
You believe them to be genuine simply because they are typewritten on a website with a picture of the Holy Elder.

You like drawing conclusions like that?
In other words you exclude the fact that I have found a ton of orthodox prophecies that all agree to the same thing, in order to tone down the 'prophecy' issue and spare Mt. Athos and the holy Elder from the "anti-jewish" fame?

Quote
Have you considered the possibility that you have spent far too much time "studying" them? And what is the point of "studying" something which you can't even prove the Elder said? Shouldn't you first "study" it's authenticity?

http://www.rel.gr/index.php?rpage=paisios&rpage2=showkeimeno.php&link_id=16
http://www.rel.gr/index.php?rpage=paisios&rpage2=showkeimeno.php&link_id=13
Does that seem authentic enough?


Quote
Why did you think that? Do you see how wrong you can be if you just assume things are true?

Well, the  "Слава теве Боже!" comment had me suspecting he's a russian or at least a slav.
It's not that much of a problem, really.

Don't tell me I'm guilty of heresy here, as you did in all the other threads lying all around here in the past, because I assumed he didn't know Greek?

Quote
Huh? Oh, I didn't realise that this thread was all about you.....

Ok, brother, I got your point. We're not allowed to speak in a thread in which you're present.
Neither are we allowed to speak about Elder Paissios because he's your beloved Monk, and you want him all for you.


Quote
quote: Where did that come from? the Destruction of Israel?
On the contrary, Israel and the Western civilisations will win the first phase of the third world war.

Oy veh Roll Eyes....here we go again.....


Oh God! Oh God!
Don't tell me I'm not allowed to talk on this because I lack official clues on authenticity!

Well, this is from the Russian Church, so you'd better be more careful with it:
http://www.russia-hc.ru/eng/religion/plegacy/instserv.cfm
Seems like a world war is going to happen after all... Or perhaps we lack the clues once more?

Ah yes, faith in God without faith in his servants. You like a 'cosmic' type of belief in God, dear ozgeorge, stripped clear of the mystery of the Church? And you also like to ridicule those who do not agree with you on the issue of the prophecies?

« Last Edit: September 15, 2005, 07:29:14 AM by Ntinos » Logged

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« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2005, 07:29:40 AM »

My cat just vomited...I think I'll just sit here and look at it.
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« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2005, 07:59:17 AM »

My cat just vomited...I think I'll just sit here and look at it.

Then tell me, why is it that every single time I mention a prophesy you jump in the topic and try to prove the prophecy false/wrong?
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« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2005, 08:03:17 AM »

Then tell me, why is it that every single time I mention a prophesy you jump in the topic and try to prove the prophecy false/wrong?

I don't have to.....you prove them lacking in any credibility yourself...
I wonder why, if you have read these prophesies on "Official Church websites" as you claim, why is it you can never provide a link to one?
Hairballs......that's unusual this early in Spring.
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« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2005, 08:13:17 AM »

Quote
I wonder why, if you have read these prophesies on "Official Church websites" as you claim, why is it you can never provide a link to one?

I've never mentioned "Official Church Websites" as that would be the websites of Patriarchates and Archdioceses, which never upload such stuff, since they are out of place.
Instead, what I mentioned is 'official sites of the Church' (the official reffering to the word "sites" not the "Church sites"), which includes sites not concerned specifically about the Patriarchates or Archdioceses themselves, but rather on Orthodoxy.


Just a while ago I mentioned:
www.rel.gr
http://www.russia-hc.ru/eng/religion/plegacy/instserv.cfm

Do those look official enough?

Quote
why is it you can never provide a link to one?

Because the original texts are in greek websites, and posting links to them would be like ignoring all the people in here who cannot read Greek.

Perhaps you would like to see athos.alexsoft.gr as well? The moderators where as kind so as to post the prophecies themselves in the community forums, open for discussion.
Or even the prophecies at the site of the St. Poimen brotherhood? http://members.cox.net/orthodoxheritage/Prophecies%20of%20Orthodox%20Church%20Fathers.htm


Quote
I don't have to.....you prove them lacking in any credibility yourself...

Why do you really have to fight me with so much hatred, can you tell me? I've never seen a single reply from you not critisizing me, especially in the past. What have I done to you exactly that deserves so much quarrel?

Quote
Hairballs......that's unusual this early in Spring.

It's Summer to Autumn for me.
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« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2005, 08:30:13 AM »

Hairballs......that's unusual this early in Spring.

While I don't want to get in the middle of this discussion, I just wanted to tell Ozgeorge that I have two cats.  My male cat is a 14 pound monster, taken off the mean streets of Brooklyn.

My female, is a slick, slender and quick as lightning predator.

The two together, would most certainly eat your cat(s) for lunch!  Tongue
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« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2005, 08:35:46 AM »

The two together, would most certainly eat your cat(s) for lunch!ÂÂ  Tongue

Yeah? Well my two cats are brothers rescued from the RSPCA (we're not a republic yet, so it's still the "Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals"). Charcoal is twice the size of Sketch and is a massive 8kg (about 16 pounds). They chase foxes for a living on our property- really!
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« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2005, 08:56:40 AM »

Yeah? Well my two cats are brothers rescued from the RSPCA (we're not a republic yet, so it's still the "Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals"). Charcoal is twice the size of Sketch and is a massive 8kg (about 16 pounds). They chase foxes for a living on our property- really!

That was hilarious! 

My cats chased New York City rats prior to joining my family, and I promise you an NYC sewer rat is bigger than an Australian fox any day! LOL
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« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2005, 09:09:50 AM »

I've never mentioned "Official Church Websites" as that would be the websites of Patriarchates and Archdioceses, which never upload such stuff, since they are out of place.
Instead, what I mentioned is 'official sites of the Church' (the official reffering to the word "sites" not the "Church sites"), which includes sites not concerned specifically about the Patriarchates or Archdioceses themselves, but rather on Orthodoxy.
And what makes them "officially" Orthodox?


Just a while ago I mentioned:
www.rel.gr
http://www.russia-hc.ru/eng/religion/plegacy/instserv.cfm
Do those look official enough?
Um.... no.
It looks nicely laid out and has nice icons and a nice double headed eagle, is that supposed to make it "official"? Do you even know who runs this site?

Because the original texts are in greek websites, and posting links to them would be like ignoring all the people in here who cannot read Greek.
Well I can, Siluoan can, many others can. Why don't you post an "official" site and let us scrutinize it?

Perhaps you would like to see athos.alexsoft.gr as well? The moderators where as kind so as to post the prophecies themselves in the community forums, open for discussion.
As they are on this forum (unfortunately).

Or even the prophecies at the site of the St. Poimen brotherhood? http://members.cox.net/orthodoxheritage/Prophecies%20of%20Orthodox%20Church%20Fathers.htm
That's strange....I don't see any prophecy by Elder Paisos there.......

Why do you really have to fight me with so much hatred, can you tell me? I've never seen a single reply from you not critisizing me, especially in the past. What have I done to you exactly that deserves so much quarrel?
You've got me all wrong mate......I don't hate you. I'm criticizing the fact that this supposed prophecy of Elder Paisios keeps being presented and still, after all this time, you still can't provide any evidence that he actually said it. I met Elder Paisios here in Australia- he heard my first Confession as a child. This supposed "prophesy" is a dishonour to his Holy and Blessed Memory. He did not say this, it doesn't even sound like something he would say.

It's Summer to Autumn for me.
It will be for me too on Sunday
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« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2005, 09:11:08 AM »

I promise you an NYC sewer rat is bigger than an Australian fox any day! LOL

Yeah? Well we've got this Bush Rat.......
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« Reply #34 on: September 15, 2005, 09:40:38 AM »

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And what makes them "officially" Orthodox?

Not sure what to tell you now. If you don't think a site named "Holy Church of Russia" is not official... whatever.


Quote
You've got me all wrong mate......I don't hate you. I'm criticizing the fact that this supposed prophecy of Elder Paisios keeps being presented and still, after all this time, you still can't provide any evidence that he actually said it. I met Elder Paisios here in Australia- he heard my first Confession as a child. This supposed "prophesy" is a dishonour to his Holy and Blessed Memory. He did not say this, it doesn't even sound like something he would say.

You can believe whatever you want, I do not really care:
http://users.forthnet.gr/pat/glg/Pages/Cpagosmios.htm
This also refers to the books from where the passages were kaken.

Quote
...it doesn't even sound like something he would say.

What a nice logical assumption!

Quote
I'm criticizing the fact that this supposed prophecy of Elder Paisios keeps being presented and still, after all this time, you still can't provide any evidence that he actually said it.

Why should I prove it to you, exactly? What makes you think I want to prove them to you?

And finally, what makes you think that proving them to you would actually equal to your accepting them? How do I know you're willing to accept my proving them to you?

I don't... of course...

Quote
Um.... no.
It looks nicely laid out and has nice icons and a nice double headed eagle, is that supposed to make it "official"? Do you even know who runs this site?

No, should I?

Quote
You've got me all wrong mate......I don't hate you.

Considering the fact that you've called me 'heretic' on more than one instances in the past, and also the fact that all of your replies to me are overly aggressive, I don't really think it's my fault for getting you... *wrong*.

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« Reply #35 on: September 15, 2005, 10:18:02 AM »

If I may say a few words.
I just cannot believe this post has ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS here......

Now, My friends husband is a Priest...he is Russian and YES the prophecies are true.
He has been to Greece only recenly(Agion Oros .Mount Athos) and Russia and the U.S.A...there are many prophecies of various Saints of the Orthodox Faith that say the exact thing!
.Elder Paisios speaks of St Kosmas O Aitolos.... and translates St Kosmas prophecy....and the prophecy reads as if it was written today.....

Anyway......
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« Reply #36 on: September 15, 2005, 10:33:20 AM »

Oh this is rich....
So now it's a prophecy of St. Kosmas the Aitolan as quoted by Elder Paisios?
And still with no more evidence than: "my friend's sister's manicurist said....."
The cat's starting to heave again.
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« Reply #37 on: September 15, 2005, 10:54:27 AM »

Well, according to the entrails of the last bull I sacrificed the world really is going to end on whenever...LOL. Come on ozgeorge, you mean you dont believe every rumour about what some monk said about the eschaton to be Divine Truth, equal in authority to the Seven Councils? How utterly unorthodox of you, next thing you're going to be saying is that we don't need to wear protection against the Evil Eye, or something equally absurd. Wink
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« Reply #38 on: September 15, 2005, 11:20:54 AM »

Now, My friends husband is a Priest...he is Russian and YES the prophecies are true.
He has been to Greece only recenly(Agion Oros .Mount Athos) and Russia and the U.S.A...there are many prophecies of various Saints of the Orthodox Faith that say the exact thing!
.Elder Paisios speaks of St Kosmas O Aitolos.... and translates St Kosmas prophecy....and the prophecy reads as if it was written today.....

eleni,
It doesn't matter if your friend's husband's brother is the EP, ozgeorge's cat heaving still applies.  Our choir director spent a month or so in a women's monastery in Greece a while back.  She said that the Abbess told her that she (the choir director) needs to learn greek, since that's all is spoken in heaven.  Cheesy  It doesn't matter if this Abbess turns out to be a saint - she can still be completely wrong.
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« Reply #39 on: September 15, 2005, 12:01:43 PM »

As I understand it, prophecy is only as good as it comes to fruition.  So far some of Elder Paissios's prophecies have come true i.e. collapse of Soviet Union.  The war with Turkey has not happened.  Also God can change prophecy as He did concerning the men of Nineveh.  Prophecy is not set in concrete, it would seem.

As an Orthodox Christian I hope i have the guts to stand for the truth and not compromise to please other people's feeilngs or ambitions.  I believe any union with Rome would be superficial and not spiritual.  They doesn't mean that RC are not Christiians, but their leadership is more secular than spirtual.

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« Reply #40 on: September 15, 2005, 03:25:58 PM »

Prophesies...what do these have to do with Salvation?

Frankly these threads just bore me to...(yawn), zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....
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« Reply #41 on: September 15, 2005, 03:51:47 PM »

Stealing the pipe out of your mouth while your still sleeping...  Cheesy
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« Reply #42 on: September 15, 2005, 04:47:51 PM »

First off...

I'm half Polish (so yes I would consider that Slavic - but not from an "Orthodox ethnicity"), an eighth Danish, and three eighths is an Anglo-Scotch-Irish mix.

The point of mine that you ignored was that in all the (English) books published of the Elder's the nuns (who are his spiritual daughters) didn't see fit to include such prophecies.  Also even the few Greek books by him and about him that I have read didn't mention them.  So you really have three options as I see it: 1) the Elder didn't say them and they forged 2) He did say them but nobody attached enough importance to them to publish them 3) Conspiracy time!

Also consider with whom you are debating - George has experience with the Holy Mountain, as do I.  In my experience the monks there are concerned about fighting the passions and growing in the spiritual life - not much time for talk of prophecies. 
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« Reply #43 on: September 15, 2005, 05:06:24 PM »

Quote
The point of mine that you ignored was that in all the (English) books published of the Elder's the nuns (who are his spiritual daughters) didn't see fit to include such prophecies.  Also even the few Greek books by him and about him that I have read didn't mention them.  So you really have three options as I see it: 1) the Elder didn't say them and they forged 2) He did say them but nobody attached enough importance to them to publish them 3) Conspiracy time!

Since you know Greek, you can read this page:
http://www.rel.gr/index.php?rpage=paisios&rpage2=showkeimeno.php&link_id=16

The prophecies mentioned in this page, as the designer of the website claims, comes from 2 books:

Τό πρώτο, είναι γραμμένο από τόν Αγιορείτη ιερομόναχο Ï€. Χριστόδουλο Αγγέλογλου  πού επί σειρά ετών βοηθούσε τόν Ï€. ÃŽÂ αÏÅ σιο από τήν διπλανή Ιερά Μονή Κουτλουμουσίου στήν οποία τότε υπηρετούσε. Τίτλος του " ΣΚΕΥΟΣ ΕΚΛΟΓΗΣ " { κείμενα Α΄ }

 =

From the Agioreite hieromonk f. Christodoulos Aggeloglou, who in the terms of many years helped elder Paissios from the Holy Monastery of Koutloummoussiou, in which he then served. The name of the book "ΣΚΕΥΟΣ ΕΚΛΟΓΗΣ"

Τό δεύτερο, είναι τού κ. Νικ. Ζουρνατζόγλου, επισμηναγού έ.ά.  πνευματικού παιδιού τού  Ï€. ÃŽÂ αÏÅ σίου καί επί σειράν ετών συνεργάτη του μέ τίτλο " ΜΑΡΤΥΡΙΕΣ ÃŽÂ ΡΟΣΚΥΝΗΤΩΝ --Γέροντας  ÃŽÂ ΑΪΣΙΟΣ ÏŒ  ΑΓΙΟΡΕΙΤΗΣ " { κείμενα Β΄ }

 =

The second, is from Nick Zournatzoglou, high ranking airforce officer, spiritual son of elder Paissios and in terms of years "ΜΑΡΤΥΡΙΕΣ ΠΡΟΣΚΥΝΗΤΩΝ - ΓΕΡΟΝΤΑΣ ΠΑΙΣΙΟΣ Ο ΑΓΙΟΡΕΙΤΗΣ" (witnesses of pilgrims - elder Paissios the Agioreite)

Do you have those two books? If yes, can you locate the following texts? If you cannot, then it is either 1) forged or 3) Conspiracy time, otherwise, it is 2)


Quote
Also consider with whom you are debating - George has experience with the Holy Mountain, as do I.  In my experience the monks there are concerned about fighting the passions and growing in the spiritual life - not much time for talk of prophecies.

He would help me a lot better if he wasn't so aggressive and prejudiced against every single thing I post in here at the first place.
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« Reply #44 on: September 15, 2005, 05:35:16 PM »

YES the prophecies are true.

I mean no disrespect here, but I would suggest that a "prophecy" is not "true" until what was spoken of actually happens.

Quote
there are many prophecies of various Saints of the Orthodox Faith that say the exact thing!
.Elder Paisios speaks of St Kosmas O Aitolos.... and translates St Kosmas prophecy....and the prophecy reads as if it was written today.....

Well, if it is a translation of a translation of a translation, we're not reading the actual words.ÂÂ  It's a third hand source at best.ÂÂ  Many of these "prophecies" read like the ones that have been floating around in certain US religious circles for over 30 years, ones that are more over on the Fundi-gelical side, though there was an RC "prophet" that was also apocalyptic in Long Island, New York (the RC officials did NOT support her "Prophecies" btw).

OzGeorge met Elder Paisios.ÂÂ  He has first hand experience.ÂÂ  Silouan has *read* the Elders writings in English and Greek and has seen none of this sort of thing.ÂÂ  He has knowledge.ÂÂ  Both of them, imho, are more trustworthy then a website of unknown provenence and reliability or many such websites that merely post the same thing.ÂÂ  Just because something is in more then one place does not make it True.ÂÂ  

Questioning assertions and disagreeing with someone else's opinion are not the equivalent of hating them.ÂÂ  Asking for documentation or proof is not a sign of animosity.ÂÂ  if even ordinary claims require proof, why should not Extraordinary ones?ÂÂ  

Ebor

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« Reply #45 on: September 15, 2005, 05:47:49 PM »

Quote
I mean no disrespect here, but I would suggest that a "prophecy" is not "true" until what was spoken of actually happens.

Oh, I thought the episcopalian Church did not believe in the whole prophecy issue? Isn't it true, Ebor?

Quote
Well, if it is a translation of a translation of a translation, we're not reading the actual words.  It's a third hand source at best.  Many of these "prophecies" read like the ones that have been floating around in certain US religious circles for over 30 years, ones that are more over on the Fundi-gelical side, though there was an RC "prophet" that was also apocalyptic in Long Island, New York (the RC officials did NOT support her "Prophecies" btw).

It is not a translation of a translation of a translation, it's the greek original right at this page: http://www.rel.gr/index.php?rpage=paisios&rpage2=showkeimeno.php&link_id=16 saying the same things about the 6-6-6 and the third world war and the rest of the stuff.

Quote
OzGeorge met Elder Paisios.  He has first hand experience.  Silouan has *read* the Elders writings in English and Greek and has seen none of this sort of thing.  He has knowledge.  Both of them, imho, are more trustworthy then a website of unknown provenence and reliability or many such websites that merely post the same thing.  Just because something is in more then one place does not make it True.

Ozgeorge just said he met him when he was a child.
Silouan has still to inform us on whether the books I mentioned are in his collection of books on Elder Paissios.

the www.rel.gr is one of the most trustworthy greek orthodox websites you can find after the www.ecclesia.gr.

Both of them say that monks are more likely to talk about repentance and humility. This does not exclude the fact that the elder could have said the prophecies. On the contrary, taking into consideration the fact that there are quite some prophecies concerning the same things from saints even from Byzantium or Holy Russia, or even Soviet Russia, this should have someone alarmed so as to whether this text is valid or not.

Or is this also to be doubted?
I believe the same way we can climb up the path to atheism, do you agree?

Quote
Silouan has *read* the Elders writings in English and Greek and has seen none of this sort of thing.  He has knowledge.

Actually, don't force me to go down to the Ecclesiastical bookshop of the Metropolis tomorrow to get both books. I remember my theologian referring to these prophecies just a few years ago.


Quote
Questioning assertions and disagreeing with someone else's opinion are not the equivalent of hating them.  Asking for documentation or proof is not a sign of animosity.  if even ordinary claims require proof, why should not Extraordinary ones?

Depends on how it is done. And also depends on how it is repeated, and how many times the same way.
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« Reply #46 on: September 15, 2005, 06:43:37 PM »

If you had read my post carefully I said that there were three conclusions that could be drawn from this: "1) the Elder didn't say them and they forged 2) He did say them but nobody attached enough importance to them to publish them 3) Conspiracy time!"

Personally I would lean towards number two, as there have been prophecies that I have read that are from legitimate sources - so it is not as if prophecy is foriegn to Orthodoxy.  But at the same time, none of the Athonite monks I know make a big deal of them.  What dominates a balanced Orthodox spiritual life is the themes of repentence, humility, love and prayer.   I have seen though among certain laypeople though an extreme fascination with end times prophecies, miracles and the like.  But to quote Elder Paisios, "We should not ask for lights or miracles, or prophecies, or gifts of the spirit, only for repentance." 
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