Author Topic: Coptic Orthodox Church Now Accepts Catholic Baptism As Valid.  (Read 1320 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Isaiah53IsMessiah

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 78
  • Faith: Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Latin Church
Quote
11. In obedience to the work of the Holy Spirit, who sanctifies the Church, keeps her throughout the ages, and leads her to full unity — that unity for which Jesus Christ prayed: Today, we, Pope Francis and Pope Tawadros II, in order to please the heart of the Lord Jesus, as well as that of our sons and daughters in the faith, mutually declare that we, with one mind and heart, will seek sincerely not to repeat the baptism that has been administered in either of our Churches for any person who wishes to join the other. This we confess in obedience to the Holy Scriptures and the faith of the three Ecumenical Councils assembled in Nicaea, Constantinople and Ephesus. We ask God our Father to guide us, in the times and by the means that the Holy Spirit will choose, to full unity in the mystical Body of Christ.

http://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/speeches/2017/april/documents/papa-francesco_20170428_egitto-tawadros-ii.html
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 05:57:59 PM by Isaiah53IsMessiah »
"God can be proved in five ways." - St. Thomas Aquinas

Offline rakovsky

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,470
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Coptic Orthodox Church Now Accepts Catholic Baptism.
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2017, 06:05:19 PM »
This is the third time someone opened a thread on this in the last two-three days. I really don't think it should be that surprising. EOs already generally allow Catholics to convert without rebaptism.

The only question I would raise is about following a common rule. The Syriac Church claims that the Coptic Church has made dialogues with Assyrians difficult since 1998 when the latter announced that "all Oriental Orthodox Churches should act together in theological dialogue and not engage in bilateral discussion".
(Relationships with the Assyrian Church of the East, http://sor.cua.edu/Ecumenism)

OOs have the full right to decide whether they want to have dialogues and with whom.
I am saying that clarity would be helpful on whether they consider bilateral discussions or agreements OK or not.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 06:06:12 PM by rakovsky »
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,999
  • Pray for me Sts. Mina & Kyrillos for my interviews
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Coptic Orthodox Church Now Accepts Catholic Baptism As Valid.
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2017, 06:06:08 PM »
It's the "will seek sincerely" part that's causing confusion.  The claim (which I feel is silly) is that in Arabic it doesn't give the same impression.  According to HGBY, that doesn't mean they will RIGHT NOW not rebaptize Catholics.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,102
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Coptic Orthodox Church Now Accepts Catholic Baptism.
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2017, 07:56:12 PM »
The only question I would raise is about following a common rule. The Syriac Church claims that the Coptic Church has made dialogues with Assyrians difficult since 1998 when the latter announced that "all Oriental Orthodox Churches should act together in theological dialogue and not engage in bilateral discussion".
(Relationships with the Assyrian Church of the East, http://sor.cua.edu/Ecumenism)

OOs have the full right to decide whether they want to have dialogues and with whom.
I am saying that clarity would be helpful on whether they consider bilateral discussions or agreements OK or not.

So far, there doesn't appear to be any controversy in the world of Oriental Orthodoxy regarding the Church of Alexandria having taken this step in dialogue with Rome, except the controversy you are trying to stir up by bringing up old news that's somewhat irrelevant and dated but which you've done some Googling about.   
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline rakovsky

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,470
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Coptic Orthodox Church Now Accepts Catholic Baptism.
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2017, 08:55:02 PM »
So far, there doesn't appear to be any controversy in the world of Oriental Orthodoxy regarding the Church of Alexandria having taken this step in dialogue with Rome, except the controversy you are trying to stir up by bringing up old news that's somewhat irrelevant

Hello, Mor.
You are saying that I am trying to create a controversy, that there is no controversy among OOs over the decision, and what I said has no relevancy. To clarify, I tend to agree that accepting RC baptisms shouldn't be controversial, so I am not trying to create a new controversy that I wouldn't support anyway. Instead of trying to create a new controversy the reason that I am bringing it up is because you wrote:
I'm conflicted.  ... I think it would be good to revisit the question in a conciliar manner and refrain from making such agreements until we're all on the same page. But no one seems to think a council is important, even while we rush toward these one-on-one "agreements" with churches outside our communion
The relevance is that the 1998 Coptic declaration against one-on-one  bilateral agreements is an official decision supporting your own reluctance for such one-on-one bilateral agreements.

I am agreeing with you, Mor, in that the main question I see is not whether RC baptisms should be accepted, but what you said: whether OOs should "refrain from making such agreements until we're all on the same page".
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 09:01:13 PM by rakovsky »
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,999
  • Pray for me Sts. Mina & Kyrillos for my interviews
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Coptic Orthodox Church Now Accepts Catholic Baptism As Valid.
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2017, 09:05:52 PM »
For a couple of decades now (and probably more), the OO Church has been on different pages in reception of Roman Catholics.  Copts (maybe?), Eritreans, and Ethiopians will baptize Roman Catholics when reception into their respective churches occurs.  Armenians, Syrians, and Indians will receive Roman Catholics by statement of faith. 
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Isaiah53IsMessiah

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 78
  • Faith: Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Latin Church
Re: Coptic Orthodox Church Now Accepts Catholic Baptism As Valid.
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2017, 09:33:27 PM »
For a couple of decades now (and probably more), the OO Church has been on different pages in reception of Roman Catholics.  Copts (maybe?), Eritreans, and Ethiopians will baptize Roman Catholics when reception into their respective churches occurs.  Armenians, Syrians, and Indians will receive Roman Catholics by statement of faith.

I've heard Armenians and even Syrians allow Catholics to commune in their churches.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 09:39:19 PM by Isaiah53IsMessiah »
"God can be proved in five ways." - St. Thomas Aquinas

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,999
  • Pray for me Sts. Mina & Kyrillos for my interviews
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Coptic Orthodox Church Now Accepts Catholic Baptism As Valid.
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2017, 09:42:56 PM »
I heard that too, but "unofficially" from my understanding
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Isaiah53IsMessiah

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 78
  • Faith: Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Latin Church
Re: Coptic Orthodox Church Now Accepts Catholic Baptism As Valid.
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2017, 09:48:59 PM »
In regards to the Coptic position on Eastern Orthodox baptism, I've seen a lot of Coptic sources speak of their validity but I have seen some Coptic sources claiming that not even Eastern Orthodox baptisms are valid. What exactly is the Coptic position on this? 
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 09:54:23 PM by Isaiah53IsMessiah »
"God can be proved in five ways." - St. Thomas Aquinas

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 36,119
Re: Coptic Orthodox Church Now Accepts Catholic Baptism As Valid.
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2017, 09:52:33 PM »
For a couple of decades now (and probably more), the OO Church has been on different pages in reception of Roman Catholics.  Copts (maybe?), Eritreans, and Ethiopians will baptize Roman Catholics when reception into their respective churches occurs.  Armenians, Syrians, and Indians will receive Roman Catholics by statement of faith.

I've heard Armenians and even Syrians allow Catholics to commune in their churches.

Antiochian (Eastern) Orthodox as well, though again (as mina said) unofficially, and only according to anecdotal evidence. Though there is in place something slightly more official along these lines between Antiochian EOs and some OOs.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 09:53:43 PM by Asteriktos »

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,999
  • Pray for me Sts. Mina & Kyrillos for my interviews
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Coptic Orthodox Church Now Accepts Catholic Baptism As Valid.
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2017, 10:26:49 PM »
In regards to the Coptic position on Eastern Orthodox baptism, I've seen a lot of Coptic sources speak of their validity but I have seen some Coptic sources claiming that not even Eastern Orthodox baptisms are valid. What exactly is the Coptic position on this?

So Coptic practice has generally been to OFFICIALLY accept EO baptism on the basis that we recognize in the EOs the one faith that we share sufficient enough to not demand a rebaptism.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Isaiah53IsMessiah

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 78
  • Faith: Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Latin Church
Re: Coptic Orthodox Church Now Accepts Catholic Baptism As Valid.
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2017, 10:37:01 PM »
In regards to the Coptic position on Eastern Orthodox baptism, I've seen a lot of Coptic sources speak of their validity but I have seen some Coptic sources claiming that not even Eastern Orthodox baptisms are valid. What exactly is the Coptic position on this?

So Coptic practice has generally been to OFFICIALLY accept EO baptism on the basis that we recognize in the EOs the one faith that we share sufficient enough to not demand a rebaptism.

I assume that Copts don't seen any validity in Protestant baptism?
"God can be proved in five ways." - St. Thomas Aquinas

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,999
  • Pray for me Sts. Mina & Kyrillos for my interviews
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Coptic Orthodox Church Now Accepts Catholic Baptism As Valid.
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2017, 10:49:24 PM »
None whatsoever
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,102
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Coptic Orthodox Church Now Accepts Catholic Baptism.
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2017, 11:46:43 PM »
...because you wrote:
I'm conflicted.  ... I think it would be good to revisit the question in a conciliar manner and refrain from making such agreements until we're all on the same page. But no one seems to think a council is important, even while we rush toward these one-on-one "agreements" with churches outside our communion
The relevance is that the 1998 Coptic declaration against one-on-one  bilateral agreements is an official decision supporting your own reluctance for such one-on-one bilateral agreements.

I am agreeing with you, Mor, in that the main question I see is not whether RC baptisms should be accepted, but what you said: whether OOs should "refrain from making such agreements until we're all on the same page".

The "1998 Coptic declaration", AFAIK, had no effect on any other Orthodox Church's conduct of "external relations" beyond the difficulty with Assyrians in the MECC, it's hardly an "official decision" of all the Churches.  The Patriarch of Antioch met as recently as 2016 with the Assyrian Catholicos-Patriarch, the Indian Church interacts with the Assyrians in India, both of these jurisdictions have dialogues with EO and RC, etc. 

You are overemphasising the importance of one incident while ignoring everything else.     
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Remnkemi

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 371
Re: Coptic Orthodox Church Now Accepts Catholic Baptism As Valid.
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2017, 04:18:30 PM »
It's the "will seek sincerely" part that's causing confusion.  The claim (which I feel is silly) is that in Arabic it doesn't give the same impression.  According to HGBY, that doesn't mean they will RIGHT NOW not rebaptize Catholics.
The way I understood the declaration (which illustrates the confusion) is (1) both churches are confirming rebaptism is not needed as it has been (prior to the 19-20th century as Fr Peter's article showed) and (2) both churches "will seek earnestly" to restore FULL relations (ie, full communion). As such I didn't see as news at all. Apparently, I am may be in the minority.

Pope Francis answered Q&A on his flight home from Egypt as he usually does. He added some more information that is also confusing.
"The unity of baptism is moving ahead. The guilt of baptism is an historical thing (Editor’s note: Pope Francis seems to be referring to the historical ‘breach’ between the recognition of baptism between the Coptic Orthodox and Catholic traditions. Neither currently recognizes baptism carried out in the other Church), because in the first Councils it was the same, then as the Coptic Christians baptized children in the shrines, when they wanted to get married, they came to us, they were married with a Catholic, they asked for the faith… but they didn’t have it and they asked for baptism under a condition. It started with us, not with them… but now the door has been opened and we are on a good path of overcoming this issue, the door…. In the common declaration, the penultimate paragraph speaks of this."
I think Pope Francis is saying Copts baptized children which RCC refused to accept. When these children grew older and wanted to marry a Catholic, the RCC asked for their faith (does that mean charismation certificate?). When they (Copts) didn't have it, the RCC asked for rebaptism as a condition of marriage. This is all news to me but it makes sense. It seems to be the impetus for Pope Francis' need and view of the recent declaration.

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,999
  • Pray for me Sts. Mina & Kyrillos for my interviews
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Coptic Orthodox Church Now Accepts Catholic Baptism As Valid.
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2017, 07:59:22 PM »
It's the "will seek sincerely" part that's causing confusion.  The claim (which I feel is silly) is that in Arabic it doesn't give the same impression.  According to HGBY, that doesn't mean they will RIGHT NOW not rebaptize Catholics.
The way I understood the declaration (which illustrates the confusion) is (1) both churches are confirming rebaptism is not needed as it has been (prior to the 19-20th century as Fr Peter's article showed)

Even if, as I mentioned, we never made any full agreements with opposing institutions for sacramental accommodations.  Great, let's not even rechrismate a Catholic, and take them in by penance and renouncing of certain Roman Catholic doctrines.  But don't make it as if you're doing the whole Roman Catholic Church a favor.  Make that decision only within the Coptic Synod.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 448
  • Māran etraḥam 'lay!
Re: Coptic Orthodox Church Now Accepts Catholic Baptism As Valid.
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2017, 08:38:57 PM »
It's the "will seek sincerely" part that's causing confusion.  The claim (which I feel is silly) is that in Arabic it doesn't give the same impression.  According to HGBY, that doesn't mean they will RIGHT NOW not rebaptize Catholics.
The way I understood the declaration (which illustrates the confusion) is (1) both churches are confirming rebaptism is not needed as it has been (prior to the 19-20th century as Fr Peter's article showed) and (2) both churches "will seek earnestly" to restore FULL relations (ie, full communion). As such I didn't see as news at all. Apparently, I am may be in the minority.

Pope Francis answered Q&A on his flight home from Egypt as he usually does. He added some more information that is also confusing.
"The unity of baptism is moving ahead. The guilt of baptism is an historical thing (Editor’s note: Pope Francis seems to be referring to the historical ‘breach’ between the recognition of baptism between the Coptic Orthodox and Catholic traditions. Neither currently recognizes baptism carried out in the other Church), because in the first Councils it was the same, then as the Coptic Christians baptized children in the shrines, when they wanted to get married, they came to us, they were married with a Catholic, they asked for the faith… but they didn’t have it and they asked for baptism under a condition. It started with us, not with them… but now the door has been opened and we are on a good path of overcoming this issue, the door…. In the common declaration, the penultimate paragraph speaks of this."
I think Pope Francis is saying Copts baptized children which RCC refused to accept. When these children grew older and wanted to marry a Catholic, the RCC asked for their faith (does that mean charismation certificate?). When they (Copts) didn't have it, the RCC asked for rebaptism as a condition of marriage. This is all news to me but it makes sense. It seems to be the impetus for Pope Francis' need and view of the recent declaration.

I think what Pope Francis is referring to is the Roman practice of conditional baptism. The Catholic Church most emphatically does accept Coptic baptism; however, if there is not a certificate, then there is legal uncertainty as to it having taken place, but since the person is a member of the Coptic Orthodox Church, the person most likely was baptized. In such a situation, the general practice in the Roman Church has been to administer baptism sub conditione with the formula: "If you have not been baptized, then I baptize you in the name of the Father..." This removes canonical doubt about baptism, and is understood to avoid the sacrilege of repeating a valid baptism.

It used to be the practice that any convert from Protestantism was conditionally baptized, and Orthodox if they did not have paperwork. Nowadays, the default seems to be to accept the validity of baptism administered with water and in the name of the Trinity, except for certain groups, e.g., Mormons.
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline youssef

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 316
Re: Coptic Orthodox Church Now Accepts Catholic Baptism As Valid.
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2017, 07:15:52 PM »
What did happen at the end? does the coptic church accept the baptism or not. I have heard a coptic priest say that we cannot accept the baptism because we don't have the same faith.

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,400
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Coptic Orthodox Church Now Accepts Catholic Baptism As Valid.
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2017, 07:16:54 PM »
I think what Pope Francis is referring to is the Roman practice of conditional baptism. The Catholic Church most emphatically does accept Coptic baptism; however, if there is not a certificate, then there is legal uncertainty as to it having taken place, but since the person is a member of the Coptic Orthodox Church, the person most likely was baptized. In such a situation, the general practice in the Roman Church has been to administer baptism sub conditione with the formula: "If you have not been baptized, then I baptize you in the name of the Father..." This removes canonical doubt about baptism, and is understood to avoid the sacrilege of repeating a valid baptism.

I think this may be the most Roman Catholic thing I've heard of in quite some time.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 448
  • Māran etraḥam 'lay!
Re: Coptic Orthodox Church Now Accepts Catholic Baptism As Valid.
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2017, 07:22:57 PM »
I think what Pope Francis is referring to is the Roman practice of conditional baptism. The Catholic Church most emphatically does accept Coptic baptism; however, if there is not a certificate, then there is legal uncertainty as to it having taken place, but since the person is a member of the Coptic Orthodox Church, the person most likely was baptized. In such a situation, the general practice in the Roman Church has been to administer baptism sub conditione with the formula: "If you have not been baptized, then I baptize you in the name of the Father..." This removes canonical doubt about baptism, and is understood to avoid the sacrilege of repeating a valid baptism.

I think this may be the most Roman Catholic thing I've heard of in quite some time.

It's certainly up there.
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,400
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Coptic Orthodox Church Now Accepts Catholic Baptism As Valid.
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2017, 07:33:43 PM »
I think what Pope Francis is referring to is the Roman practice of conditional baptism. The Catholic Church most emphatically does accept Coptic baptism; however, if there is not a certificate, then there is legal uncertainty as to it having taken place, but since the person is a member of the Coptic Orthodox Church, the person most likely was baptized. In such a situation, the general practice in the Roman Church has been to administer baptism sub conditione with the formula: "If you have not been baptized, then I baptize you in the name of the Father..." This removes canonical doubt about baptism, and is understood to avoid the sacrilege of repeating a valid baptism.

I think this may be the most Roman Catholic thing I've heard of in quite some time.

It's certainly up there.

You seem like a very nice, considerate person in spite of your really formidable scholarly knowledge.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 36,119
Re: Coptic Orthodox Church Now Accepts Catholic Baptism As Valid.
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2017, 07:36:21 PM »
There are 'conditional baptisms' (and other sacraments) in Orthodoxy though...

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,102
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Coptic Orthodox Church Now Accepts Catholic Baptism As Valid.
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2017, 07:46:29 PM »
There are 'conditional baptisms' (and other sacraments) in Orthodoxy though...

There's "conditional baptism", there's "unconditional baptism because whatever aquatic religious ritual you experienced was not baptism at all", there's "no baptism at all because you already had one, just fill out a pledge card and introduce yourself to Fr Yevgeny MacDonald", etc.
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,400
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Antonious Nikolas

  • Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,236
  • Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Oriental Orthodox Church
Re: Coptic Orthodox Church Now Accepts Catholic Baptism As Valid.
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2017, 10:02:23 PM »
What did happen at the end? does the coptic church accept the baptism or not. I have heard a coptic priest say that we cannot accept the baptism because we don't have the same faith.

Thank God, the Holy Synod clarified that we do not accept Catholic baptism and we do not share one faith with them.  H.G. Bishop David of the Coptic Orthodox Diocese of New York & New England, for example, offered this clarification on his Facebook page:

Quote
Blessed Sons & daughters,
Christ is Risen!

As many people are confused by the misleading articles and news posted on social media, we decided to clarify any misunderstanding regarding the acceptance of the baptismal sacrament between the Coptic Orthodox Church & the Roman Catholic Church. Please read article 11 in the following attachments from The Vatican website.

Arabic translation:
http://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/it/bollettino/pubblico/2017/04/28/0279/00640.html#ara.

English translation:
http://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/it/bollettino/pubblico/2017/04/28/0279/00640.html#orig

It states that “We seek sincerely” which does not mean we accept, but rather, as the decree states, “We ask God our Father to guide us, in the times and by the means that the Holy Spirit will choose, to full unity in the mystical Body of Christ.” We, as the Coptic Orthodox Church, are fully committed to the ecumenical dialogue between all churches to properly reach the full unity which pleases the heart of our Lord. It can only be done when reach the unity of faith and then unity of the mysteries of the Church. May the Lord help us in this endeavor through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.