Author Topic: Post Council observations  (Read 1149 times)

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Offline Iconodule

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Post Council observations
« on: March 15, 2017, 11:20:26 AM »
Fr. Theodore is now courting schism and has ceased to commemorate his ruling bishop.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:18:11 PM by LizaSymonenko »
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2017, 11:25:28 AM »
Do we know the reasons why that might be?
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:18:48 PM by LizaSymonenko »
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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2017, 11:30:46 AM »
Fr. Theodore is now courting schism and has now ceased to commemorate his ruling bishop.

Would you please provide the URL?  It's not in your post. 
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:19:01 PM by LizaSymonenko »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2017, 11:33:48 AM »
Fr. Theodore is now courting schism and has now ceased to commemorate his ruling bishop.

Would you please provide the URL?  It's not in your post.

Whoops! Fixed it.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:19:21 PM by LizaSymonenko »
“Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger! That is strength, boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?  Contemplate this on the tree of woe.” - Elder Thulsa Doom of the Mountain of Power

Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2017, 11:38:18 AM »
Do we know the reasons why that might be?

Fr. Theodore has been very zealous- I would say, excessively so- in his criticism of the supposedly heretical Cretan council. The EP, for its part, has been very heavy-handed in trying to silence criticism of said council, even outside its canonical territory. Fr. Theodore's bishop has told him to stop attacking the council. Fr. Theodore has now responded by publicly refusing to commemorate him.

Since I'm really neither a fan of the Cretan council nor the unhinged anti-ecumenical posturing opposed to it, I guess I'll just sit back and eat popcorn.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:19:37 PM by LizaSymonenko »
“Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger! That is strength, boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?  Contemplate this on the tree of woe.” - Elder Thulsa Doom of the Mountain of Power

Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Come look at my lame blog

Offline Antonis

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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2017, 11:52:59 AM »
He really has no other logical choice. He believes the Council taught heresy, his bishop told him he must stop speaking against the Council. If he believes it taught heresy, he must persist in speaking against it regardless of consequence to himself.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:19:47 PM by LizaSymonenko »
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Offline Remnkemi

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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2017, 11:58:47 AM »
Link didn't work for me.

Since I'm really neither a fan of the Cretan council nor the unhinged anti-ecumenical posturing opposed to it, I guess I'll just sit back and eat popcorn.
As an OO, I've been sitting back eating popcorn ever since the Cretan council was announced, reminiscing of how the same arguments against or for the Cretan council sound eerily close to the arguments for and against Chalcedon. Pure coincidence of course, but still entertaining to say the least. 
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:20:02 PM by LizaSymonenko »

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2017, 11:59:59 AM »
Do we know the reasons why that might be?

Fr. Theodore has been very zealous- I would say, excessively so- in his criticism of the supposedly heretical Cretan council. The EP, for its part, has been very heavy-handed in trying to silence criticism of said council, even outside its canonical territory. Fr. Theodore's bishop has told him to stop attacking the council. Fr. Theodore has now responded by publicly refusing to commemorate him.

Since I'm really neither a fan of the Cretan council nor the unhinged anti-ecumenical posturing opposed to it, I guess I'll just sit back and eat popcorn.

I have no problem with the Council, in spite of not being a member party to it as part of the OCA, but I do have a problem with the idea that we need to force the Church into accepting the Council and not the other way around, as it's supposed to be.

Link didn't work for me.

Since I'm really neither a fan of the Cretan council nor the unhinged anti-ecumenical posturing opposed to it, I guess I'll just sit back and eat popcorn.
As an OO, I've been sitting back eating popcorn ever since the Cretan council was announced, reminiscing of how the same arguments against or for the Cretan council sound eerily close to the arguments for and against Chalcedon. Pure coincidence of course, but still entertaining to say the least. 

Sadly, I think you're correct. This sort of politicking doesn't help the mission of Christianity. In any case, they cannot be compared in full because Empire and communication, as well as historical context were different. But I understand the comparison.

He really has no other logical choice. He believes the Council taught heresy, his bishop told him he must stop speaking against the Council. If he believes it taught heresy, he must persist in speaking against it regardless of consequence to himself.

Which, if correct, would be the right thing to do of course. I don't think he's right though. I've read it a few different times, and much of his criticism is completely unfounded. He said that the Council changes fasting, marriage and the ecclesiology of the Church and it does none of these things. The fasting document merely reaffirms the Orthodox position on fasting and the necessity for economia where it is needed. The marriage document merely reiterates what we consider it as, a Holy Mystery. The ecclesiology of the Church is affirmed at least five times in the document, if I recall. I don't really understand this criticism, because I have a genuine criticism of the council, and I feel like these non-issues often overturn what real issues we could be discussing regarding it.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:20:12 PM by LizaSymonenko »
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Offline WPM

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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2017, 12:18:48 PM »
How is that "part" of Orthodoxy or anything to do with the councils? . . .
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:20:21 PM by LizaSymonenko »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2017, 12:30:49 PM »
Link didn't work for me.

Since I'm really neither a fan of the Cretan council nor the unhinged anti-ecumenical posturing opposed to it, I guess I'll just sit back and eat popcorn.
As an OO, I've been sitting back eating popcorn ever since the Cretan council was announced, reminiscing of how the same arguments against or for the Cretan council sound eerily close to the arguments for and against Chalcedon. Pure coincidence of course, but still entertaining to say the least.

And, more recently and more intra-EO, Old Calendarism.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:20:30 PM by LizaSymonenko »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2017, 12:34:00 PM »
For better or worse, Chalcedon actually had some concrete administrative and dogmatic actions. Crete simply issued a couple of vague documents that change nothing and have as much substance as the "vision statement" on a church website, only a lot longer. Denouncing it as heretical gives it too much credit.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:20:42 PM by LizaSymonenko »
“Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger! That is strength, boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?  Contemplate this on the tree of woe.” - Elder Thulsa Doom of the Mountain of Power

Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2017, 12:35:19 PM »
For better or worse, Chalcedon actually had some concrete administrative and dogmatic actions. Crete simply issued a couple of vague documents that change nothing and have as much substance as the "vision statement" on a church website, only a lot longer.

Be careful, Iconodule.  Do you want to be debaptised for expressing such opinions? 
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:20:53 PM by LizaSymonenko »
OC.NET is full of temptations, but in temptations we are enforced, remember about the thread "Temptation in the Desert: Rachel Weisz and the Undoing of Mor Ephrem". OC.NET helps in becoming unpassionate.

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Oh you Greeks, you are all dumb!

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2017, 12:46:24 PM »
Just to be perfectly clear, the Great and Holy Council of Crete is a marvel of Orthodox ecclesial unity and spiritual vitality, a true exemplar of the spirit of Pentecost, witnessing to the truth as our great helmsman and spiritual leader His All Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew steers us with his firm apostolic hand into the 21st century. May he reign for a bajillion years.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:21:08 PM by LizaSymonenko »
“Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger! That is strength, boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?  Contemplate this on the tree of woe.” - Elder Thulsa Doom of the Mountain of Power

Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Come look at my lame blog

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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2017, 01:04:19 PM »
Just to be perfectly clear, the Great and Holy Council of Crete is a marvel of Orthodox ecclesial unity and spiritual vitality, a true exemplar of the spirit of Pentecost, witnessing to the truth as our great helmsman and spiritual leader His All Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew steers us with his firm apostolic hand into the 21st century. May he reign for a bajillion years.

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« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:21:24 PM by LizaSymonenko »
OC.NET is full of temptations, but in temptations we are enforced, remember about the thread "Temptation in the Desert: Rachel Weisz and the Undoing of Mor Ephrem". OC.NET helps in becoming unpassionate.

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Oh you Greeks, you are all dumb!

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Offline Antonis

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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2017, 02:34:44 PM »
Just to be perfectly clear, the Great and Holy Council of Crete is a marvel of Orthodox ecclesial unity and spiritual vitality, a true exemplar of the spirit of Pentecost, witnessing to the truth as our great helmsman and spiritual leader His All Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew, spiritual leader of over 300 million Orthodox Christians, steers us with his firm apostolic hand into the 21st century. May he reign for a bajillion years.
I'm sure we could add more.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:21:33 PM by LizaSymonenko »
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Offline Antonis

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Re:Post Council observations
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2017, 02:57:32 PM »
Which, if correct, would be the right thing to do of course. I don't think he's right though. I've read it a few different times, and much of his criticism is completely unfounded. He said that the Council changes fasting, marriage and the ecclesiology of the Church and it does none of these things. The fasting document merely reaffirms the Orthodox position on fasting and the necessity for economia where it is needed. The marriage document merely reiterates what we consider it as, a Holy Mystery. The ecclesiology of the Church is affirmed at least five times in the document, if I recall. I don't really understand this criticism, because I have a genuine criticism of the council, and I feel like these non-issues often overturn what real issues we could be discussing regarding it.
I haven't read his critique of fasting, but I think there is genuine room for critique with the marital and ecclesiological issues. The marriage document contradicts Trullo's ruling regarding interfaith marriages. One could argue this is a necessary update, but it isn't a groundless objection. The ecclesiological statements are a little more complicated, but the debate regarding ecclesiality of congregations outside of the Orthodox Church is a very serious one. It transformed the ecclesiological teaching of the Latins after the Second Vatican Council.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:21:43 PM by LizaSymonenko »
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2017, 03:13:19 PM »
This is sad, we're losing many voices... also, it's annoying how NFTU rejoices at our disgrace, most of their news are all about throwing dung on the Eastern Orthodox Church.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:21:53 PM by LizaSymonenko »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re:Post Council observations
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2017, 03:16:34 PM »
He really has no other logical choice. He believes the Council taught heresy, his bishop told him he must stop speaking against the Council. If he believes it taught heresy, he must persist in speaking against it regardless of consequence to himself.

My suspicion is that many of our more zealous clerics crave being put in such a situation, and will manufacture a deadly heresy to bravely confess against if one is not readily available.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:22:02 PM by LizaSymonenko »
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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2017, 03:59:19 PM »
I was hoping new thread would have been made on this, since thread title is not fitting


It is very distressing , what happens next?

Metropolitan Hierotheos, who has very similar criticisms of council, said others should not cease commemoration 

although think about this seriously. If metropolitan hierotheos  was forced to shut up all criticisms as well , does anyone really believe he would sit silent as well? I think he would cease commemoration as well in my opinion
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:22:11 PM by LizaSymonenko »
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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2017, 04:27:42 PM »
transcript of his Sunday of Orthodoxy where he does this:

http://aktines.blogspot.com/2017/03/blog-post_601.html

(in greek)

audio recording:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnkHkhEMSQc

« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:22:20 PM by LizaSymonenko »
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2017, 04:28:54 PM »
He really has no other logical choice. He believes the Council taught heresy, his bishop told him he must stop speaking against the Council. If he believes it taught heresy, he must persist in speaking against it regardless of consequence to himself.

My suspicion is that many of our more zealous clerics crave being put in such a situation, and will manufacture a deadly heresy to bravely confess against if one is not readily available.
It's certainly possible, just as I think more lukewarm clerics would be willing to overlook even overt abuse and heresy if the source was "prestigious" enough.

I think both pro and anti-ecumenists can agree that Ecumenism is an issue that has been a source of division in the Church for a century and needs to be addressed.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:22:30 PM by LizaSymonenko »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2017, 04:39:37 PM »
That's fair. I think there is a certain institutional inertia and smugness on one side that more than matches the hysteria on the other. I think official ecumenism is mainly a waste of time, but occasionally a statement comes out that could be mildly alarming if it had any actual impact.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:22:39 PM by LizaSymonenko »
“Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger! That is strength, boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?  Contemplate this on the tree of woe.” - Elder Thulsa Doom of the Mountain of Power

Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2017, 04:58:17 PM »
at the end of the transcript you can see that he will not commemorate any other bishops, and will not join any schismatic group, and his justification canonically to do so
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:22:49 PM by LizaSymonenko »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2017, 06:31:37 PM »
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:22:58 PM by LizaSymonenko »
OC.NET is full of temptations, but in temptations we are enforced, remember about the thread "Temptation in the Desert: Rachel Weisz and the Undoing of Mor Ephrem". OC.NET helps in becoming unpassionate.

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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2017, 06:39:17 PM »
Well, that didn't take long...

Of course: 15th canon of the 1st-2nd Council. Now, as for how it is applicable (if at all) to ecumenism... ???
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:24:20 PM by LizaSymonenko »
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2017, 07:01:58 PM »
Well, that didn't take long...

Of course: 15th canon of the 1st-2nd Council. Now, as for how it is applicable (if at all) to ecumenism... ???
The canon allows for cessation of commemoration of a hierarch who supports a heresy condemned by a council or fathers. You would be hard-pressed to find a father of the last century, who, upon encountering an ecumenism of the stripe most wide-spread today, did not strongly condemn it. These are the grounds that Fr. Theodore stands on. As I've said before, one could debate it, but it's not ridiculous. St. Paisios did and advocated for the same with Patriarch Athenagoras.

The canon does not mandate cessation of commemoration in this case, but holds it up as a commendable act.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:24:32 PM by LizaSymonenko »
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2017, 09:26:50 PM »
For better or worse, Chalcedon actually had some concrete administrative and dogmatic actions. Crete simply issued a couple of vague documents that change nothing and have as much substance as the "vision statement" on a church website, only a lot longer. Denouncing it as heretical gives it too much credit.
This has been my thoughts on the council ever since it took place. I'm really at a loss for understanding the opposition to it. It was a couple platitudes packaged up so everyone could feel good about themselves. I don't see the heresy in it. Colossal waste of time, yes. Anything involving the teachings of the Church, no.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:24:45 PM by LizaSymonenko »
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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2017, 12:50:37 AM »
For better or worse, Chalcedon actually had some concrete administrative and dogmatic actions. Crete simply issued a couple of vague documents that change nothing and have as much substance as the "vision statement" on a church website, only a lot longer. Denouncing it as heretical gives it too much credit.
This has been my thoughts on the council ever since it took place. I'm really at a loss for understanding the opposition to it. It was a couple platitudes packaged up so everyone could feel good about themselves. I don't see the heresy in it. Colossal waste of time, yes. Anything involving the teachings of the Church, no.

Standardization of Eucharistic fast,  writing down the criteria for granting autonomy, reaffirming our stance that we actually are the Church while still reaffirming our participationin the ecumenical movement doesnt't seem waste of time to me. I don't think the synod was anyhow pan-Orthodox but IMO there was actually need for it.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:24:55 PM by LizaSymonenko »
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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2017, 02:33:20 AM »
The Metropolitan Anthimos, sent two letters, (where, they even calimed Father Theodore was committing slander, and used internet comments by people on a blog as evidence also..... such as someone commenting "Axios" to Father Theodore...


I think there is another priest that also ceased commemorating few months ago, and this same bishop got angry at internet comments.)

Father Theodore has responded with this:

https://katanixis.blogspot.com/2017/03/blog-post_822.html
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:25:03 PM by LizaSymonenko »
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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2017, 02:34:03 AM »
this was the two documents the Metropolitan sent against Father Theodore

https://katanixis.blogspot.com/2017/03/2_7.html
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:25:12 PM by LizaSymonenko »
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2017, 06:37:54 AM »
Well, that didn't take long...

Of course: 15th canon of the 1st-2nd Council. Now, as for how it is applicable (if at all) to ecumenism... ???
The canon allows for cessation of commemoration of a hierarch who supports a heresy condemned by a council or fathers. You would be hard-pressed to find a father of the last century, who, upon encountering an ecumenism of the stripe most wide-spread today, did not strongly condemn it. These are the grounds that Fr. Theodore stands on. As I've said before, one could debate it, but it's not ridiculous. St. Paisios did and advocated for the same with Patriarch Athenagoras.

The canon does not mandate cessation of commemoration in this case, but holds it up as a commendable act.

I'm quite familiar with it... that was sort of my point. Old calendarists have been arguing about it for a long time, along with arguments between O.C. vs. "world Orthodoxy." Everything that was in that article? All old hat, all stuff that has been in the arena for several generations now. And still there is no definitive interpretation/application. For example, you mention how many people/fathers have condemned ecumenism, and that's true to varying degrees; but how many considered it a heresy? How many who condemned it, or even called it things like "pan-heresy," nonetheless stayed in communion (as monks, bishops, etc.) with the evil world Orthodoxy?
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:25:20 PM by LizaSymonenko »
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2017, 06:41:49 AM »
an ecumenism of the stripe most wide-spread today

To what are you rererring to? Like actually listening to what people are actually saying?
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:25:28 PM by LizaSymonenko »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2017, 09:21:51 AM »
For better or worse, Chalcedon actually had some concrete administrative and dogmatic actions. Crete simply issued a couple of vague documents that change nothing and have as much substance as the "vision statement" on a church website, only a lot longer. Denouncing it as heretical gives it too much credit.
This has been my thoughts on the council ever since it took place. I'm really at a loss for understanding the opposition to it. It was a couple platitudes packaged up so everyone could feel good about themselves. I don't see the heresy in it. Colossal waste of time, yes. Anything involving the teachings of the Church, no.

Standardization of Eucharistic fast,  writing down the criteria for granting autonomy, reaffirming our stance that we actually are the Church while still reaffirming our participationin the ecumenical movement doesnt't seem waste of time to me. I don't think the synod was anyhow pan-Orthodox but IMO there was actually need for it.

It's true that there are many pressing problems that need conciliar resolution. They were studiously avoided in the Cretan documents. The above issues you mention, as far as I know, have not been major issues of contention in the global Church. Not even the most wishy-washy ecumenists will deny that we are The Church when backed into a corner, as far as I've seen.

Big disputes, like the "diaspora," the question of autocephaly, the Jerusalem-Antioch schism, were ignored.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:25:37 PM by LizaSymonenko »
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2017, 09:31:57 AM »
It's true that there are many pressing problems that need conciliar resolution. They were studiously avoided in the Cretan documents. The above issues you mention, as far as I know, have not been major issues of contention in the global Church. Not even the most wishy-washy ecumenists will deny that we are The Church when backed into a corner, as far as I've seen.

The reason for this was simple: the Churches decided that they needed to agree to the agenda - i.e. what is debatable - and have a sense (through the pre-conciliar meetings) in what direction they thought the Church should be pointed.  But this wasn't achieved because some Churches took stands against discussion / debate on one issue, and others on another issue... and the agenda became trimmed.  Maybe if there was an infinite bank account that could allow for the ancient style "Show up for the Synod and stay as long as it takes to get the issue resolved," more meaningful debate would be possible.  Please keep in mind that (a) there is no Emperor to set an agenda, (b) there are more than twice as many autocephalous churches as there were at the time of the last commonly agreed upon Ecumenical Council, and (c) now, like then, there are worldly political forces that are trying to steer the Church in one direction or another for their own ends.

Big disputes, like the "diaspora," the question of autocephaly,

Some churches felt that these are non-debatable issues, and therefore had them stricken from the agenda.

the Jerusalem-Antioch schism

The proverbial rock-and-hard-place.  If you choose the Church that is canonically correct, then the parish in question gets shut down by the government; if you choose the Church that is not canonically correct, the parish stays open, but bad behavior has been rewarded.  I actually think King Solomon's solution would have been the best way to move forward - cut the baby in half.

« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:25:45 PM by LizaSymonenko »
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, & godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope & glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed & purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.  Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. (Titus 2:11-15)

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2017, 10:40:51 AM »
It's true that there are many pressing problems that need conciliar resolution. They were studiously avoided in the Cretan documents. The above issues you mention, as far as I know, have not been major issues of contention in the global Church. Not even the most wishy-washy ecumenists will deny that we are The Church when backed into a corner, as far as I've seen.

The reason for this was simple: the Churches decided that they needed to agree to the agenda - i.e. what is debatable - and have a sense (through the pre-conciliar meetings) in what direction they thought the Church should be pointed.

It seemed to me that the discussion on this was very limited, and the range of accepted topics pretty pre-determined. Anyone trying to introduce new topics was shut down by the process.

Quote
But this wasn't achieved because some Churches took stands against discussion / debate on one issue, and others on another issue... and the agenda became trimmed.  Maybe if there was an infinite bank account that could allow for the ancient style "Show up for the Synod and stay as long as it takes to get the issue resolved," more meaningful debate would be possible.  Please keep in mind that (a) there is no Emperor to set an agenda, (b) there are more than twice as many autocephalous churches as there were at the time of the last commonly agreed upon Ecumenical Council, and (c) now, like then, there are worldly political forces that are trying to steer the Church in one direction or another for their own ends.

So are we to throw our arms up and never attempt to resolve these issues because there is no Emperor to lock our bishops in a room until they're solved? If the synod isn't for resolving actual problems and disagreements, what is it for? We don't have an infinite bank account for it, sure, but do we have an infinite bank account for jurisdictional squabbles,

Quote
Some churches felt that these are non-debatable issues, and therefore had them stricken from the agenda.

What does non-debatable issue mean? Obviously there is debate about them.

Quote
The proverbial rock-and-hard-place.  If you choose the Church that is canonically correct, then the parish in question gets shut down by the government; if you choose the Church that is not canonically correct, the parish stays open, but bad behavior has been rewarded.  I actually think King Solomon's solution would have been the best way to move forward - cut the baby in half.

So we should only address problems with easy solutions, and let everything else fester?
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:25:55 PM by LizaSymonenko »
“Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger! That is strength, boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?  Contemplate this on the tree of woe.” - Elder Thulsa Doom of the Mountain of Power

Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

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Offline Antonis

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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2017, 10:58:57 AM »
Well, that didn't take long...

Of course: 15th canon of the 1st-2nd Council. Now, as for how it is applicable (if at all) to ecumenism... ???
The canon allows for cessation of commemoration of a hierarch who supports a heresy condemned by a council or fathers. You would be hard-pressed to find a father of the last century, who, upon encountering an ecumenism of the stripe most wide-spread today, did not strongly condemn it. These are the grounds that Fr. Theodore stands on. As I've said before, one could debate it, but it's not ridiculous. St. Paisios did and advocated for the same with Patriarch Athenagoras.

The canon does not mandate cessation of commemoration in this case, but holds it up as a commendable act.

I'm quite familiar with it... that was sort of my point. Old calendarists have been arguing about it for a long time, along with arguments between O.C. vs. "world Orthodoxy." Everything that was in that article? All old hat, all stuff that has been in the arena for several generations now. And still there is no definitive interpretation/application. For example, you mention how many people/fathers have condemned ecumenism, and that's true to varying degrees; but how many considered it a heresy? How many who condemned it, or even called it things like "pan-heresy," nonetheless stayed in communion (as monks, bishops, etc.) with the evil world Orthodoxy?
The only reason Fr. Theodore ceased commemoration is because he was ordered to stop speaking out against the Council. Standing by his principles, this action forced his hand. Had he not been censured, commemoration of Met. Anthimos would likely have continued.

The mindset of Fr. Zisis' "faction," (of which I find myself sympathetic) is that abuse and heresy ought to be combated while remaining within the Church, rather than setting up parallel structures or stating that Ecumenists and those in communion with them are graceless, such as the majority of Old Calendarists have. That being said, they are also sympathetic to the Old Calendarist plight. Like I stated, the canon does not mandate non-commemoration, but holds it up as a commendable act. The decision is one that requires discernment, and in some cases it was determined that it was necessary (St. Paisios and the Holy Mountain), and in others it was not (St. Justin Popovic, whose synod was not given to excessive ecumenical abuse, but had strong words for the Constantinopolitan Synod).

an ecumenism of the stripe most wide-spread today

To what are you rererring to? Like actually listening to what people are actually saying?

I was thinking more along the lines of repeated abuse of the canons, propagation of ecclesiological heresy (branch theory, baptismal ecclesiology to name two), referring to non-Orthodox bodies as "sister churches," etc. (the list goes on and on), the only fruit of which is the further distance of non-Orthodox bodies, shallow handshaking, baby-kissing, glossy photographs, division and scandal in the Church, and repeated condemnation from our saints of the past century.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:26:05 PM by LizaSymonenko »
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2017, 02:56:04 PM »
It's true that there are many pressing problems that need conciliar resolution. They were studiously avoided in the Cretan documents. The above issues you mention, as far as I know, have not been major issues of contention in the global Church. Not even the most wishy-washy ecumenists will deny that we are The Church when backed into a corner, as far as I've seen.

The reason for this was simple: the Churches decided that they needed to agree to the agenda - i.e. what is debatable - and have a sense (through the pre-conciliar meetings) in what direction they thought the Church should be pointed.

It seemed to me that the discussion on this was very limited, and the range of accepted topics pretty pre-determined. Anyone trying to introduce new topics was shut down by the process.

Trying to get the heads of all the autocephalous churches to agree to an agenda seemed to be fraught with challenges, not the least of which are (a) the different conditions under which each local church operates, and (b) that many topics were put on the agenda by their predecessors (sometimes 2-3 persons before the current office holder) that they weren't too keen on.  Some wanted to whittle the agenda down to nothingness, and they partially succeeded.  I, like you, think they had a lot more that they could have discussed. 

If Crete was the first of many opportunities for the various churches to meet, then I'm OK with having left some unresolved issues.  If the Churches aren't going to meet again for a few generations, then this was a major missed opportunity.

But this wasn't achieved because some Churches took stands against discussion / debate on one issue, and others on another issue... and the agenda became trimmed.  Maybe if there was an infinite bank account that could allow for the ancient style "Show up for the Synod and stay as long as it takes to get the issue resolved," more meaningful debate would be possible.  Please keep in mind that (a) there is no Emperor to set an agenda, (b) there are more than twice as many autocephalous churches as there were at the time of the last commonly agreed upon Ecumenical Council, and (c) now, like then, there are worldly political forces that are trying to steer the Church in one direction or another for their own ends.

So are we to throw our arms up and never attempt to resolve these issues because there is no Emperor to lock our bishops in a room until they're solved? If the synod isn't for resolving actual problems and disagreements, what is it for? We don't have an infinite bank account for it, sure, but do we have an infinite bank account for jurisdictional squabbles,

I'm not saying I like it (the fact that various autocephalous churches cannot agree on an agenda) - I'm saying we haven't come up with a mechanism to adapt to the current reality.  Autocratic leadership helped us (and hurt us), and we adapted to its modus operandi.  We have not adapted to the new reality.

Some churches felt that these are non-debatable issues, and therefore had them stricken from the agenda.

What does non-debatable issue mean? Obviously there is debate about them.

Various local Churches felt that there is nothing to discuss with regards to the granting (or taking, as it were) of autocephaly.  So they wouldn't consent to having it on the agenda.  Clearly many feel that there is something to discuss and debate, and there are clear indications that many of the Churches disagree with one another on the topic, but any local church that indicated that it would not waver on their stance immediately had veto power over the agenda and, of course, the proceedings.  We have a broken understanding of "consensus" (as if it meant that everyone agreed - instead of the reality which was more like "we all agree that we will all say that we agreed to whatever wins the vote"), and having consensus dictate the agenda means we won't discuss what is uncomfortable to one, even if it is vitally necessary.

The proverbial rock-and-hard-place.  If you choose the Church that is canonically correct, then the parish in question gets shut down by the government; if you choose the Church that is not canonically correct, the parish stays open, but bad behavior has been rewarded.  I actually think King Solomon's solution would have been the best way to move forward - cut the baby in half.

So we should only address problems with easy solutions, and let everything else fester? 

Nope.  But both churches involved are not interested in compromise, and The Church loses if a decision has to be rendered fully in favor of one or the other.  It would be good if the plurality of Churches would be willing to rally together to force an outcome, but no one wants to force a decision on an unwilling Church, lest that same tactic force them to make a change later down the line.  I don't like it, but this is where we stand.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:26:16 PM by LizaSymonenko »
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, & godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope & glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed & purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.  Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. (Titus 2:11-15)

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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2017, 03:05:17 PM »
Fair points, Father.

If Crete was the first of many opportunities for the various churches to meet, then I'm OK with having left some unresolved issues.

I agree. This seems to be the hope expressed in a few places, including by churches that did not attend. If that's how it works out, then good. I worry that the intransigence both of the synod's supporters and critics, though, might lead to a certain hardening of the edges and make future councils more difficult to convene or less productive.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:26:27 PM by LizaSymonenko »
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Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

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Offline Alpo

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Re: Post Council observations
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2017, 12:33:09 PM »
For better or worse, Chalcedon actually had some concrete administrative and dogmatic actions. Crete simply issued a couple of vague documents that change nothing and have as much substance as the "vision statement" on a church website, only a lot longer. Denouncing it as heretical gives it too much credit.
This has been my thoughts on the council ever since it took place. I'm really at a loss for understanding the opposition to it. It was a couple platitudes packaged up so everyone could feel good about themselves. I don't see the heresy in it. Colossal waste of time, yes. Anything involving the teachings of the Church, no.

Standardization of Eucharistic fast,  writing down the criteria for granting autonomy, reaffirming our stance that we actually are the Church while still reaffirming our participationin the ecumenical movement doesnt't seem waste of time to me. I don't think the synod was anyhow pan-Orthodox but IMO there was actually need for it.

It's true that there are many pressing problems that need conciliar resolution. They were studiously avoided in the Cretan documents. The above issues you mention, as far as I know, have not been major issues of contention in the global Church. Not even the most wishy-washy ecumenists will deny that we are The Church when backed into a corner, as far as I've seen.

Big disputes, like the "diaspora," the question of autocephaly, the Jerusalem-Antioch schism, were ignored.

Yes, the council wasn't a cure-all for every problem we have. But it's a start. Next time we can address other issues. Considering how fragmented Orthodox world is I see every kind of standardization and explication of already existing tradition as a positive development.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:18:34 PM by LizaSymonenko »
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