Author Topic: About baptism or chrismation for converts  (Read 1702 times)

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Offline beebert

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About baptism or chrismation for converts
« on: April 04, 2017, 11:40:53 AM »
Hi. I was quite recently received into the orthodox church by chrismation. I was baptized in to the swedish lutheran church when I was a new born child so the priest said I couldn't be baptized again. Though, somehow I feel that a new baptism would have been necessary, since I think that the swedish lutheran church is without doubt in apostasy and has been for a very long time, and was so when I was baptized as a newborn child. For example, they let homosexuals marry, they let women be priests, even bishops. They even have priests who openly admits they don't believe that sin exists, even that God exists! Plenty of priests have denied the virgin birth, and says that God is just a metaphor. I remember once when I was just starting to believe in Jesus and I felt convicted of my sins before I turned to the orthodox church. I called a priest in the swedish church, and she basically became angry at me for claiming that I had sinned and replied "What is sin? Who says you have sinned?". And later, I went to another priest to talk about my sins, and he basically asked the same question: "What is sin?". I said I had committed fornication and the sin of lust. To which he replied it was natural to have sex and lust and nothing to be ashamed of... The church generally denies the majority of basic christian beliefs. I am certain that the majority denies the existence of hell. It would not surprise me if the majority even denies Jesus is the son of God. And this is the church I was baptized in to... I don't know... But on top of this I was never a church goer as a child, I discovered the christian faith by myself after a man had preached to me(who was not involved in the swedish church). I went through series of experiences that one can almost call revelations. This happened in my adulthood at age 21 and had nothing to do with the swedish church I was baptized in. I have almost never gone to a church service in this church. My parents are not believers, so they baptized me only because it is a tradition in Sweden... I don't know... I don't feel like my baptism was valid and I am having sincere doubts as to whether I should have been baptized or not when I was received in to the orthodox church... It feels like I am unbaptized.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 11:45:00 AM by beebert »
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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2017, 11:47:08 AM »
Not meaning to be curt, but if your bishop said that chrismation is the proper method of reception in cases like yours, then it'd be best to "Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account." (Heb. 13:17)

Offline beebert

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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2017, 11:49:32 AM »
Not meaning to be curt, but if your bishop said that chrismation is the proper method of reception in cases like yours, then it'd be best to "Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account." (Heb. 13:17)
Yes but it wasn't a bishop who said it. It was the priest. I have just heard that different jurisdictions within orthodoxy handle this situation differently. Some receive people from heretical churches by chrismation. Others by baptism. Now the swedish church is not even heretical. It is in apostasy. I just don't know if the priest knew how seriously off this swedish church is in its beliefs. Because it isn't like normal lutheranism. And I didn't tell him. I just said I was baptized in the swedish lutheran church and he said that I then just only need chrismation.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 11:53:49 AM by beebert »
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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2017, 11:57:06 AM »
Btw, do you fast this lent ? have you gone to confession ? Did you receive Holy Communion ?

Offline beebert

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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2017, 11:59:18 AM »
Btw, do you fast this lent ? have you gone to confession ? Did you receive Holy Communion ?
Yes to all of your questions. Confession helped me a little bit, but I still have problems. Though I sincerely must say it is better now then before. Orthodoxy has started to help me realize that I really need to reject beliefs like calvinism and such, not only in my mind but also in my heart, and I am starting to see the importance of holy tradition.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 12:00:02 PM by beebert »
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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2017, 12:03:09 PM »
Not meaning to be curt, but if your bishop said that chrismation is the proper method of reception in cases like yours, then it'd be best to "Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account." (Heb. 13:17)
Yes but it wasn't a bishop who said it. It was the priest. I have just heard that different jurisdictions within orthodoxy handle this situation differently. Some receive people from heretical churches by chrismation. Others by baptism. Now the swedish church is not even heretical. It is in apostasy. I just don't know if the priest knew how seriously off this swedish church is in its beliefs. Because it isn't like normal lutheranism. And I didn't tell him. I just said I was baptized in the swedish lutheran church and he said that I then just only need chrismation.

The priest is, is this instance, a representative of his bishop. He chrismated you likely because the bishop has determined that this is the way to receive converts from the Swedish Lutheran Church. Even if there are grave deficiencies in the theology and praxis of the Swedish church, the bishop has determined that their rite of baptism is sufficient to not require a repetition. Do not worry about what other bishops and jurisdictions do.
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- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline beebert

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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2017, 12:09:42 PM »
Not meaning to be curt, but if your bishop said that chrismation is the proper method of reception in cases like yours, then it'd be best to "Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account." (Heb. 13:17)
Yes but it wasn't a bishop who said it. It was the priest. I have just heard that different jurisdictions within orthodoxy handle this situation differently. Some receive people from heretical churches by chrismation. Others by baptism. Now the swedish church is not even heretical. It is in apostasy. I just don't know if the priest knew how seriously off this swedish church is in its beliefs. Because it isn't like normal lutheranism. And I didn't tell him. I just said I was baptized in the swedish lutheran church and he said that I then just only need chrismation.

The priest is, is this instance, a representative of his bishop. He chrismated you likely because the bishop has determined that this is the way to receive converts from the Swedish Lutheran Church. Even if there are grave deficiencies in the theology and praxis of the Swedish church, the bishop has determined that their rite of baptism is sufficient to not require a repetition. Do not worry about what other bishops and jurisdictions do.
Okay you are right! Thanks! But how can I be certain that God approved of my baptism as a newborn child in this apostate church?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 12:10:33 PM by beebert »
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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2017, 12:16:06 PM »
God has brought you into his Church and he is not out to trick you. Anything that was lacking before has now been filled. Don't worry about it; you are an Orthodox Christian. There will be many struggles ahead of you, but this isn't one.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2017, 12:33:36 PM »
Quote
But how can I be certain that God approved of my baptism as a newborn child in this apostate church?

That baptism wasn't Grace filled, but you were given Grace and approved at the moment of your chrismation.

If you took Holy Communion and didn't get sick or die, then this is good indication that you are accepted as baptized.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 12:35:23 PM by Vanhyo »

Offline beebert

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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2017, 12:39:41 PM »
Quote
But how can I be certain that God approved of my baptism as a newborn child in this apostate church?

That baptism wasn't Grace filled, but you were given Grace and approved at the moment of your chrismation.

If you took Holy Communion and didn't get sick or die, then this is good indication that you are accepted as baptized.
Why wasn't the baptism grace filled? Because it was incomplete without chrismation or because it was instituted by an apostate church?

Why is the fact that I didn't get sick or die good indication that I am accepted?
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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2017, 01:05:07 PM »
Why wasn't the baptism grace filled? Because it was incomplete without chrismation or because it was instituted by an apostate church?
Second option. But it already had the external forms of baptism.
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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2017, 01:17:04 PM »
Why wasn't the baptism grace filled? Because it was incomplete without chrismation or because it was instituted by an apostate church?
Second option. But it already had the external forms of baptism.
But if it wasn't grace filled, then wasn't it wrong not to baptize me again?
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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2017, 01:35:10 PM »
Quote
Why wasn't the baptism grace filled? Because it was incomplete without chrismation or because it was instituted by an apostate church?
Because true sacraments exist only in the Church, not outside of it.

Quote
Why is the fact that I didn't get sick or die good indication that I am accepted?
See - 1 Corinthians 11:29-30

Also, sometime ago i finished reading a book(about the Eucharist) with many interesting testimonies and miracles.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 01:37:24 PM by Vanhyo »

Offline beebert

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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2017, 01:49:35 PM »
Quote
Why wasn't the baptism grace filled? Because it was incomplete without chrismation or because it was instituted by an apostate church?
Because true sacraments exist only in the Church, not outside of it.

Quote
Why is the fact that I didn't get sick or die good indication that I am accepted?
See - 1 Corinthians 11:29-30

Also, sometime ago i finished reading a book(about the Eucharist) with many interesting testimonies and miracles.

I agree the sacraments Only exists in the Church. But that is Why I wonder if it wasnt wrong not to baptize me when I entered the orthodox Church.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2017, 01:56:21 PM »
Quote
Why I wonder if it wasnt wrong not to baptize me when I entered the orthodox Church.
I don't know, maybe we will never learn why.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 01:56:56 PM by Vanhyo »

Offline beebert

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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2017, 02:06:23 PM »
Quote
Why I wonder if it wasnt wrong not to baptize me when I entered the orthodox Church.
I don't know, maybe we will never learn why.
Why I wasnt baptized? Maybe I should ask the Priest?But I Guess it is too late for baptism now haha?
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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2017, 02:11:59 PM »
Not meaning to be curt, but if your bishop said that chrismation is the proper method of reception in cases like yours, then it'd be best to "Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account." (Heb. 13:17)
Yes but it wasn't a bishop who said it. It was the priest. I have just heard that different jurisdictions within orthodoxy handle this situation differently. Some receive people from heretical churches by chrismation. Others by baptism. Now the swedish church is not even heretical. It is in apostasy. I just don't know if the priest knew how seriously off this swedish church is in its beliefs. Because it isn't like normal lutheranism. And I didn't tell him. I just said I was baptized in the swedish lutheran church and he said that I then just only need chrismation. 

Reception into the Church from groups that are like the Church (but not quite it) has been more complicated than people believe for longer than they'll accept.  In any event, you should trust the Spirit to fulfill what is lacking - if you don't, then you have a bigger problem on your hands than whether you went into the water again.
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Offline beebert

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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2017, 02:19:59 PM »
Not meaning to be curt, but if your bishop said that chrismation is the proper method of reception in cases like yours, then it'd be best to "Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account." (Heb. 13:17)
Yes but it wasn't a bishop who said it. It was the priest. I have just heard that different jurisdictions within orthodoxy handle this situation differently. Some receive people from heretical churches by chrismation. Others by baptism. Now the swedish church is not even heretical. It is in apostasy. I just don't know if the priest knew how seriously off this swedish church is in its beliefs. Because it isn't like normal lutheranism. And I didn't tell him. I just said I was baptized in the swedish lutheran church and he said that I then just only need chrismation. 

Reception into the Church from groups that are like the Church (but not quite it) has been more complicated than people believe for longer than they'll accept.  In any event, you should trust the Spirit to fulfill what is lacking - if you don't, then you have a bigger problem on your hands than whether you went into the water again.
You are right. So I should just stop caring about the baptism?
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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2017, 02:21:44 PM »
Quote
Why wasn't the baptism grace filled? Because it was incomplete without chrismation or because it was instituted by an apostate church?
Because true sacraments exist only in the Church, not outside of it.

Quote
Why is the fact that I didn't get sick or die good indication that I am accepted?
See - 1 Corinthians 11:29-30

Also, sometime ago i finished reading a book(about the Eucharist) with many interesting testimonies and miracles.

I agree the sacraments Only exists in the Church. But that is Why I wonder if it wasnt wrong not to baptize me when I entered the orthodox Church.

This is one reason why Christ formed the Church rather than letting it be a evangelistic free-for-all. God can inspire/direct anyone, but the Church as a whole, represented by the bishops (being led by the Holy Spirit--Acts 15), is the highest authority on earth in such matters. So, many people quote Matt. 18:19-20 where it says" “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.” However, the context of this is about acting within the established boundaries of the Church. The previous passages give as an example how this works if there is a conflict between Christians:

“If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector." (Matt. 18:15-17)

The Church here is a final or supreme arbiter, after which no higher authority is possible in regular earthly affairs. You can't go 'directly to God' as a final judge, not because God won't hear or respond, but because people would try to say their own subjective desires are from god. Instead God set up the Church, appointed some certain tasks like teaching, others tasks like ruling, and so on (1 Cor. 12:28-29). This was done in an orderly and apostles-down way (Tit. 1:5), and the bishops, who are direct successors of the apostles--which has as much to do with spirit and inspiration as lists of predecessors--have authority over such things such as reception of converts. We find this authority mentioned in Scripture, for example, when Jesus said to his disciples: “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." (Matt. 18:18) Also, if there are still worries about the bishop getting things wrong, remember that there is a system of checks and balances in place, so that if one bishop or teacher is doing something wrong, others with proper authority can correct them. But a lay person would not be one with authority to tell a bishop he is wrong and should receive them in some other way.

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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2017, 02:22:44 PM »
Why wasn't the baptism grace filled? Because it was incomplete without chrismation or because it was instituted by an apostate church?
Second option. But it already had the external forms of baptism.
But if it wasn't grace filled, then wasn't it wrong not to baptize me again?
Because of the external forms. This is how I learned it at least, I'm not claiming any authority to this claim.  :P
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 02:23:01 PM by RaphaCam »
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Offline beebert

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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2017, 02:31:20 PM »
Why wasn't the baptism grace filled? Because it was incomplete without chrismation or because it was instituted by an apostate church?
Second option. But it already had the external forms of baptism.
But if it wasn't grace filled, then wasn't it wrong not to baptize me again?
Because of the external forms. This is how I learned it at least, I'm not claiming any authority to this claim.  :P
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Offline beebert

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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2017, 02:31:51 PM »
Quote
Why wasn't the baptism grace filled? Because it was incomplete without chrismation or because it was instituted by an apostate church?
Because true sacraments exist only in the Church, not outside of it.

Quote
Why is the fact that I didn't get sick or die good indication that I am accepted?
See - 1 Corinthians 11:29-30

Also, sometime ago i finished reading a book(about the Eucharist) with many interesting testimonies and miracles.

I agree the sacraments Only exists in the Church. But that is Why I wonder if it wasnt wrong not to baptize me when I entered the orthodox Church.

This is one reason why Christ formed the Church rather than letting it be a evangelistic free-for-all. God can inspire/direct anyone, but the Church as a whole, represented by the bishops (being led by the Holy Spirit--Acts 15), is the highest authority on earth in such matters. So, many people quote Matt. 18:19-20 where it says" “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.” However, the context of this is about acting within the established boundaries of the Church. The previous passages give as an example how this works if there is a conflict between Christians:

“If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector." (Matt. 18:15-17)

The Church here is a final or supreme arbiter, after which no higher authority is possible in regular earthly affairs. You can't go 'directly to God' as a final judge, not because God won't hear or respond, but because people would try to say their own subjective desires are from god. Instead God set up the Church, appointed some certain tasks like teaching, others tasks like ruling, and so on (1 Cor. 12:28-29). This was done in an orderly and apostles-down way (Tit. 1:5), and the bishops, who are direct successors of the apostles--which has as much to do with spirit and inspiration as lists of predecessors--have authority over such things such as reception of converts. We find this authority mentioned in Scripture, for example, when Jesus said to his disciples: “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." (Matt. 18:18) Also, if there are still worries about the bishop getting things wrong, remember that there is a system of checks and balances in place, so that if one bishop or teacher is doing something wrong, others with proper authority can correct them. But a lay person would not be one with authority to tell a bishop he is wrong and should receive them in some other way.
Simply you advice me to leave it alone now?
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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2017, 02:45:45 PM »
Simply you advice me to leave it alone now?

If it continues to bother you, I don't think there's anything wrong with asking your priest or bishop why things were done as they were, and why they weren't done as others have suggested. Either way, trust can be a difficult thing, but it's a good virtue to work at.

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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2017, 02:48:12 PM »
Simply you advice me to leave it alone now?

If it continues to bother you, I don't think there's anything wrong with asking your priest or bishop why things were done as they were, and why they weren't done as others have suggested. Either way, trust can be a difficult thing, but it's a good virtue to work at.
I Will ask the Priest! Would the Church normally have performed baptism in a case like mine you mean?
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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2017, 02:48:37 PM »
Not meaning to be curt, but if your bishop said that chrismation is the proper method of reception in cases like yours, then it'd be best to "Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account." (Heb. 13:17)
Yes but it wasn't a bishop who said it. It was the priest. I have just heard that different jurisdictions within orthodoxy handle this situation differently. Some receive people from heretical churches by chrismation. Others by baptism. Now the swedish church is not even heretical. It is in apostasy. I just don't know if the priest knew how seriously off this swedish church is in its beliefs. Because it isn't like normal lutheranism. And I didn't tell him. I just said I was baptized in the swedish lutheran church and he said that I then just only need chrismation. 

Reception into the Church from groups that are like the Church (but not quite it) has been more complicated than people believe for longer than they'll accept.  In any event, you should trust the Spirit to fulfill what is lacking - if you don't, then you have a bigger problem on your hands than whether you went into the water again.
You are right. So I should just stop caring about the baptism? 

The moment you're received into the Church, you should stop worrying about your baptism and start worrying (in a manner of speaking) about your salvation.  We stop worrying about our applications to college, jobs, etc. the moment that we have admission / hiring; same is true of membership in the Church of Christ.
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Offline beebert

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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2017, 02:51:17 PM »
Not meaning to be curt, but if your bishop said that chrismation is the proper method of reception in cases like yours, then it'd be best to "Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account." (Heb. 13:17)
Yes but it wasn't a bishop who said it. It was the priest. I have just heard that different jurisdictions within orthodoxy handle this situation differently. Some receive people from heretical churches by chrismation. Others by baptism. Now the swedish church is not even heretical. It is in apostasy. I just don't know if the priest knew how seriously off this swedish church is in its beliefs. Because it isn't like normal lutheranism. And I didn't tell him. I just said I was baptized in the swedish lutheran church and he said that I then just only need chrismation. 

Reception into the Church from groups that are like the Church (but not quite it) has been more complicated than people believe for longer than they'll accept.  In any event, you should trust the Spirit to fulfill what is lacking - if you don't, then you have a bigger problem on your hands than whether you went into the water again.
You are right. So I should just stop caring about the baptism? 

The moment you're received into the Church, you should stop worrying about your baptism and start worrying (in a manner of speaking) about your salvation.  We stop worrying about our applications to college, jobs, etc. the moment that we have admission / hiring; same is true of membership in the Church of Christ.
I also need to Care about the salvation of others. For some reason that is feeling at least as important to me...
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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2017, 03:32:30 PM »
I also need to Care about the salvation of others. For some reason that is feeling at least as important to me...

Pray for them, become a shining example of the faith, and let God deal with the rest.
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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2017, 03:39:46 PM »
Quote
Why I wonder if it wasnt wrong not to baptize me when I entered the orthodox Church.
I don't know, maybe we will never learn why.
Why I wasnt baptized? Maybe I should ask the Priest?But I Guess it is too late for baptism now haha?
As Father George mentioned, this issue of how to receive non-Orthodox Christians into the Church has been debated since basically the time of St. Cyprian in the 3rd century, maybe even sooner. It's basically up to the jurisdiction you're attached to, it hasn't been dogmatized.
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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2017, 04:56:29 PM »
beebert, I understand your concerns.
Why did you not ask to be baptized again? Do you think they would have denied it?
It is better to err on the side of safe, obviously.

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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2017, 04:57:32 PM »
Question:
My understanding is that the early tradition was not to rebaptize people who had already received Trinitarian baptism, even if outside the Church. As an apostolic church, I think the early tradition is correct.

However, what happens when a non-rebaptised convert goes to Mt. Athos? Will they treat him the same as any other normal Orthodox or will they reject him from communion?

I know the question was mentioned briefly on this old thread
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=5702.0
And here:
http://silouanthompson.net/2014/03/met-kallistos-on-rocor-tradition-and-on-baptizing-converts/
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 04:58:22 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2017, 06:57:12 PM »
What I've read from some traditionalist leaning Orthodox is that oikonomia by Chrismation is only acceptable when the original baptism was done with the "correct form", that is, by triple immersion in the name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. How true is this claim?

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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2017, 07:02:05 PM »
Reception into the Church from groups that are like the Church (but not quite it) has been more complicated than people believe for longer than they'll accept. 

Yup.
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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2017, 07:07:59 PM »
Beebert--You have  gotten good answers. You have received a new start, Glory be to God, and I am saddened by your inability to fully enjoy your new life. I forgot who characterized Holy Communion as a renewal of your baptismal mystery, but every time that you commune, you put on Christ in a manner of speaking; you start both Mysteries with both private and public confession; you are renewed, reinvigorated, and illumined--again in a general sense. Indeed, in each of our contacts with God, no matter what the Mystery is, we are capable of receiving Him as fully as we can.  Have you learned the Trisagion Prayers? Isn't it true that they start boldly with our prayer to the Holy Spirit to "come, and abide in us, and cleanse us from every stain, and save our souls"? If that happens, wouldn't that be earth- shattering, amazing, indescribably wonderful experience? Isn't that similar to  the Lord's Prayer,  the Jesus Prayer, St Ephrem's Prayer, Holy Communion itself? The miracles happen over and over again every day for some of us, but often enough for all of us to live for the next encounter with God. Don't worry about the past--you have such a full future that you will detract from your journey in the Lord, if you keep on second guessing what has happened in the past.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 07:09:04 PM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) »

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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2017, 07:24:59 PM »
The moment you're received into the Church, you should stop worrying about your baptism and start worrying (in a manner of speaking) about your salvation.  We stop worrying about our applications to college, jobs, etc. the moment that we have admission / hiring; same is true of membership in the Church of Christ.

As the author of Hebrews put it, "Therefore, leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection -- not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit."

Quote
I believe in one baptism for the remission of sins.

I'm not going to insist this means no one should be rebaptized, but it does shed light on the nature of God in the world thru his mysteria -- they are a thing wholly apart from the petty multiplicity and vagary of mortal organizations.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 07:26:16 PM by Porter ODoran »
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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2017, 10:52:39 PM »
I have been told that Chrismation completes whatever may have been lacking in the Baptism.  You should try to stop worrying.  Trust that the Priests did not mislead you if they are following the Bishops directives concerning whether to rebaptize or simply receive by Chrismation. 
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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2017, 11:51:09 PM »
beebert, I understand your concerns.
Why did you not ask to be baptized again? Do you think they would have denied it?
It is better to err on the side of safe, obviously.
Good question. You are absolutely right
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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2017, 11:51:36 PM »
I have been told that Chrismation completes whatever may have been lacking in the Baptism.  You should try to stop worrying.  Trust that the Priests did not mislead you if they are following the Bishops directives concerning whether to rebaptize or simply receive by Chrismation.
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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2017, 12:44:13 AM »
Hi Beebert,

Welcome to mass (liturgy) confusion of modern cafeteria orthodoxy. I entered Orthodoxy, from decaying U.S. Catholicism, through U.S. Antiochian (Metro Philip) Orthodox by very abbreviated, summary chrismation in about 1986. As I became more experienced, with various available Orthodox jurisdictions, and studied, I grew more uncomfortable with this "biff-bam" initiation. As senior, serious priests and native orthodox became more comfortable with my continuing inquries and studies, it was explained to me that ritual full Orthodox Baptism and Chrismation was more appropriate, but more complicated and difficult for Metro Philip's planned mass conversion scheme. I believe that Metro Philip deposed ordained "fundamentalist" convert priests who insisted on personal Orthodox Baptism, refused to be clean shaven, and refused to wear normal Western street clothes in public, etc. I didn't ask for Orthodox Baptism, but developed other compelling reasons to leave the Antiochians and seek ritual Coptic Baptism, Holy Myron Chrismation, and further study and practice in the largely Arabic speaking Coptic Orthodox Church. I'm disappointed that Pope Shenouda and the English speaking Coptic Bishops adopted accommodation of feminism, and arbitrary imposition of the mercenary, long failed, Freudian gender, marriage and family model on Coptic youth education and feminist challenged existing marriages and families, shortly after my Baptism. I've found purpose in consoling and trying to normalize shocked, distraught Coptic fathers and children victims of the new epidemic of Coptic feminist pleasing, clergy ignored civil no-fault divorces. I'd prefer a traditional Orthodox patriarchal marriage and family supporting jurisdiction, but unfortunately I'm past the age and personal philosophy to seek acceptance in an Amish community that continues  the traditional marriage and family order practices that nurtured relatively recent Orthodox family and community life in all nations and cultures.

beebert, I understand your concerns.
Why did you not ask to be baptized again? Do you think they would have denied it?
It is better to err on the side of safe, obviously.



Question:
My understanding is that the early tradition was not to rebaptize people who had already received Trinitarian baptism, even if outside the Church. As an apostolic church, I think the early tradition is correct.

However, what happens when a non-rebaptised convert goes to Mt. Athos? Will they treat him the same as any other normal Orthodox or will they reject him from communion?

I know the question was mentioned briefly on this old thread
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=5702.0
And here:
http://silouanthompson.net/2014/03/met-kallistos-on-rocor-tradition-and-on-baptizing-converts/

What I've read from some traditionalist leaning Orthodox is that oikonomia by Chrismation is only acceptable when the original baptism was done with the "correct form", that is, by triple immersion in the name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. How true is this claim?

I recommend that you consider the cautions and concerns that Lepanto, Rakovsky and  AlioshaKaramazov, and their links  offered above. Don't be discouraged by disappointments and misrepresentations. Keep your mind and spirit open, the Holy Spirit will stay with you and lead you.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 12:51:45 AM by irishpilgrim »

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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2017, 01:01:35 AM »
Hi Beebert,

Welcome to mass (liturgy) confusion of modern cafeteria orthodoxy. I entered Orthodoxy, from decaying U.S. Catholicism, through U.S. Antiochian (Metro Philip) Orthodox by very abbreviated, summary chrismation in about 1986. As I became more experienced, with various available Orthodox jurisdictions, and studied, I grew more uncomfortable with this "biff-bam" initiation. As senior, serious priests and native orthodox became more comfortable with my continuing inquries and studies, it was explained to me that ritual full Orthodox Baptism and Chrismation was more appropriate, but more complicated and difficult for Metro Philip's planned mass conversion scheme. I believe that Metro Philip deposed ordained "fundamentalist" convert priests who insisted on personal Orthodox Baptism, refused to be clean shaven, and refused to wear normal Western street clothes in public, etc. I didn't ask for Orthodox Baptism, but developed other compelling reasons to leave the Antiochians and seek ritual Coptic Baptism, Holy Myron Chrismation, and further study and practice in the largely Arabic speaking Coptic Orthodox Church. I'm disappointed that Pope Shenouda and the English speaking Coptic Bishops adopted accommodation of feminism, and arbitrary imposition of the mercenary, long failed, Freudian gender, marriage and family model on Coptic youth education and feminist challenged existing marriages and families, shortly after my Baptism. I've found purpose in consoling and trying to normalize shocked, distraught Coptic fathers and children victims of the new epidemic of Coptic feminist pleasing, clergy ignored civil no-fault divorces. I'd prefer a traditional Orthodox patriarchal marriage and family supporting jurisdiction, but unfortunately I'm past the age and personal philosophy to seek acceptance in an Amish community that continues  the traditional marriage and family order practices that nurtured relatively recent Orthodox family and community life in all nations and cultures.

beebert, I understand your concerns.
Why did you not ask to be baptized again? Do you think they would have denied it?
It is better to err on the side of safe, obviously.



Question:
My understanding is that the early tradition was not to rebaptize people who had already received Trinitarian baptism, even if outside the Church. As an apostolic church, I think the early tradition is correct.

However, what happens when a non-rebaptised convert goes to Mt. Athos? Will they treat him the same as any other normal Orthodox or will they reject him from communion?

I know the question was mentioned briefly on this old thread
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=5702.0
And here:
http://silouanthompson.net/2014/03/met-kallistos-on-rocor-tradition-and-on-baptizing-converts/

What I've read from some traditionalist leaning Orthodox is that oikonomia by Chrismation is only acceptable when the original baptism was done with the "correct form", that is, by triple immersion in the name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. How true is this claim?

I recommend that you consider the cautions and concerns that Lepanto, Rakovsky and  AlioshaKaramazov, and their links  offered above. Don't be discouraged by disappointments and misrepresentations. Keep your mind and spirit open, the Holy Spirit will stay with you and lead you.
I do not quite understand. Was it wrong not to baptize me?
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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2017, 01:07:19 AM »
Hi Beebert,

Welcome to mass (liturgy) confusion of modern cafeteria orthodoxy. I entered Orthodoxy, from decaying U.S. Catholicism, through U.S. Antiochian (Metro Philip) Orthodox by very abbreviated, summary chrismation in about 1986. As I became more experienced, with various available Orthodox jurisdictions, and studied, I grew more uncomfortable with this "biff-bam" initiation. As senior, serious priests and native orthodox became more comfortable with my continuing inquries and studies, it was explained to me that ritual full Orthodox Baptism and Chrismation was more appropriate, but more complicated and difficult for Metro Philip's planned mass conversion scheme. I believe that Metro Philip deposed ordained "fundamentalist" convert priests who insisted on personal Orthodox Baptism, refused to be clean shaven, and refused to wear normal Western street clothes in public, etc. I didn't ask for Orthodox Baptism, but developed other compelling reasons to leave the Antiochians and seek ritual Coptic Baptism, Holy Myron Chrismation, and further study and practice in the largely Arabic speaking Coptic Orthodox Church. I'm disappointed that Pope Shenouda and the English speaking Coptic Bishops adopted accommodation of feminism, and arbitrary imposition of the mercenary, long failed, Freudian gender, marriage and family model on Coptic youth education and feminist challenged existing marriages and families, shortly after my Baptism. I've found purpose in consoling and trying to normalize shocked, distraught Coptic fathers and children victims of the new epidemic of Coptic feminist pleasing, clergy ignored civil no-fault divorces. I'd prefer a traditional Orthodox patriarchal marriage and family supporting jurisdiction, but unfortunately I'm past the age and personal philosophy to seek acceptance in an Amish community that continues  the traditional marriage and family order practices that nurtured relatively recent Orthodox family and community life in all nations and cultures.

beebert, I understand your concerns.
Why did you not ask to be baptized again? Do you think they would have denied it?
It is better to err on the side of safe, obviously.



Question:
My understanding is that the early tradition was not to rebaptize people who had already received Trinitarian baptism, even if outside the Church. As an apostolic church, I think the early tradition is correct.

However, what happens when a non-rebaptised convert goes to Mt. Athos? Will they treat him the same as any other normal Orthodox or will they reject him from communion?

I know the question was mentioned briefly on this old thread
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=5702.0
And here:
http://silouanthompson.net/2014/03/met-kallistos-on-rocor-tradition-and-on-baptizing-converts/

What I've read from some traditionalist leaning Orthodox is that oikonomia by Chrismation is only acceptable when the original baptism was done with the "correct form", that is, by triple immersion in the name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. How true is this claim?

I recommend that you consider the cautions and concerns that Lepanto, Rakovsky and  AlioshaKaramazov, and their links  offered above. Don't be discouraged by disappointments and misrepresentations. Keep your mind and spirit open, the Holy Spirit will stay with you and lead you.
I do not quite understand. Was it wrong not to baptize me?

Beebert, your chrismation made you a full member of the Orthodox Church. You are not a "second-class" Orthodox because you were received into the Church this way. Please ignore the posts of those who try to say you should have been baptized. They are wrong.
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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2017, 09:24:13 AM »
^+1. And shame on Irishpilgrim and anyone else who is introducing such pointless and unfounded doubts.
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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2017, 10:51:43 AM »
Thirded....


and if it makes you feel even MORE secure, there are folks who are now priests who were received into the Church via chrismation.   
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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #42 on: April 05, 2017, 10:56:59 AM »
Not to mention a few saints.
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Offline beebert

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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #43 on: April 05, 2017, 11:38:14 AM »
Thirded....


and if it makes you feel even MORE secure, there are folks who are now priests who were received into the Church via chrismation.
I am certain there are... It's was just that in my case it was not because the church I was baptized in was heretical, but rather because it was and is in apostasy, because it actively denies many of the fundamentals in the christian faith. For example, as I said, there are many priests in this church that even denies sin and the virgin birth, and even says that God is a metaphor. I mean... This is, it seems to me, actually worse than to be an Arian or a Nestorian or something... Because many in this church really denies God... And well, the other issues I mentioned as well... But I guess you are right. I need to trust the priest.
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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #44 on: April 05, 2017, 12:12:38 PM »
I am unaware of any "mass conversion" scheme by the late Metr. Philip of blessed memory. I was unbaptized & formerly nominal , estranged, Protestant and had to be baptiz d. I also did not receive any brownie points for my father's family background of being Syrian Orthodox.
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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #45 on: April 05, 2017, 12:17:56 PM »
Thirded....


and if it makes you feel even MORE secure, there are folks who are now priests who were received into the Church via chrismation.

Or having priestly vestments put on them by a bishop.
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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #46 on: April 05, 2017, 12:35:01 PM »
Thirded....


and if it makes you feel even MORE secure, there are folks who are now priests who were received into the Church via chrismation.

Or having priestly vestments put on them by a bishop.



heheh well that too...
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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #47 on: April 05, 2017, 12:40:17 PM »
Thirded....


and if it makes you feel even MORE secure, there are folks who are now priests who were received into the Church via chrismation.
I am certain there are... It's was just that in my case it was not because the church I was baptized in was heretical, but rather because it was and is in apostasy, because it actively denies many of the fundamentals in the christian faith. For example, as I said, there are many priests in this church that even denies sin and the virgin birth, and even says that God is a metaphor. I mean... This is, it seems to me, actually worse than to be an Arian or a Nestorian or something... Because many in this church really denies God... And well, the other issues I mentioned as well... But I guess you are right. I need to trust the priest.
Obviously it wasn't ideal, but if you were baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the grace of that baptism was still bestowed by God, not by the hands at the font.

The other thing to remember is that baptism and chrismation are incomplete without the other. For many converts, such as myself or you, the distance in time between the two acts may have been longer than for those who were fortunate enough to be born into the church or to have first met Christ there, but because baptism and chrismation are part and parcel, by being chrismated in the Church you were de facto baptized into the Church. It doesn't matter that the water from the first act was in the wrong location; you finished where you were supposed to.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 12:41:31 PM by Agabus »
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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #48 on: April 05, 2017, 12:42:59 PM »
Thirded....


and if it makes you feel even MORE secure, there are folks who are now priests who were received into the Church via chrismation.
I am certain there are... It's was just that in my case it was not because the church I was baptized in was heretical, but rather because it was and is in apostasy, because it actively denies many of the fundamentals in the christian faith. For example, as I said, there are many priests in this church that even denies sin and the virgin birth, and even says that God is a metaphor. I mean... This is, it seems to me, actually worse than to be an Arian or a Nestorian or something... Because many in this church really denies God... And well, the other issues I mentioned as well... But I guess you are right. I need to trust the priest.
Obviously it wasn't ideal, but if you were baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the grace of that baptism was still bestowed by God, not by the hands at the font.

The other thing to remember is that baptism and chrismation are incomplete without the other. For many converts, such as myself or you, the distance in time between the two acts may have been longer than for those who were fortunate enough to be born into the church or to have first met Christ there, but because baptism and chrismation are part and parcel, by being chrismated in the Church you were de facto baptized into the Church. It doesn't matter that the water from the first act was in the wrong location; you finished where you were supposed to.
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Offline AlioshaKaramazov

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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #49 on: April 05, 2017, 02:31:51 PM »
Not to mention a few saints.

Can you give some examples please?

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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #52 on: April 05, 2017, 04:14:25 PM »
Not to mention a few saints.

Can you give some examples please?

https://orthodoxwiki.org/Elizabeth_the_New_Martyr

and her sister was received the same way.  At the very least, Alexandra is a Passion Bearer, still canonized.
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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #53 on: April 05, 2017, 11:51:14 PM »
Obviously it wasn't ideal, but if you were baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the grace of that baptism was still bestowed by God, not by the hands at the font.

So true! I wonder of the modern Western cult of personality makes this concept somewhat foreign to us. Consider those Orthodox who have taken the elements of the Eucharist from the hands of priests whom scandal later revealed to have been awful men. Were those faithful Orthodox then not partaking of the Body and Blood? God forbid. The reverence and trust due the mysteria is toward God, not toward any men.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 11:52:13 PM by Porter ODoran »
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Offline irishpilgrim

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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #54 on: April 10, 2017, 02:23:02 AM »
I am unaware of any "mass conversion" scheme by the late Metr. Philip of blessed memory. I was unbaptized & formerly nominal , estranged, Protestant and had to be baptiz d. I also did not receive any brownie points for my father's family background of being Syrian Orthodox.

recent convert,

Congratulations on your reception by Holy Orthodox Baptism. Perhaps the prayers of your Syrian Orthodox ancestors provided the brownie points that secured your return by Holy Baptism and, hopefully by ritual Orthodox Holy Chrismation. Background on anticipated earlier, and concurrent "mass conversions" via the defunct Antiochian Evangelical Orthodox Mission is discussed at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_Orthodox_Church. The anticipated next wave is discussed at http://www.antiochian.org/content/will-we-be-ready-coming-evangelical-collapse.

Hopefully the rejuvenating, amazingly blessed traditional patristic Orthodox gender, marriage and family ministry of Antiochian Orthodox priest, Father Josiah Trenham, will motivate all other English speaking Orthodox Jurisdictions to restore our Orthodox Holy Fathers' teaching and practice of Apostolic/Scriptural patriarchal gender, marriage and family theology and life, instead of the failed current demonic, family destroying, divorce producing Freudian/feminist psychological recent innovations. This solid family supporting theology should produce a true foundation for mass internal and external conversions by all legitimate Holy Orthodox jurisdictions.

 
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 02:26:16 AM by irishpilgrim »

Offline Fr. George

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Re: About baptism or chrismation for converts
« Reply #55 on: April 11, 2017, 09:55:06 AM »
Hopefully the rejuvenating, amazingly blessed traditional patristic Orthodox gender, marriage and family ministry of Antiochian Orthodox priest, Father Josiah Trenham, will motivate all other English speaking Orthodox Jurisdictions to restore our Orthodox Holy Fathers' teaching and practice of Apostolic/Scriptural patriarchal gender, marriage and family theology and life, instead of the failed current demonic, family destroying, divorce producing Freudian/feminist psychological recent innovations. This solid family supporting theology should produce a true foundation for mass internal and external conversions by all legitimate Holy Orthodox jurisdictions.

Be careful what you wish for - remember, St. Paul says "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. For we are members of His body,[d] of His flesh and of His bones. “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”[e] This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church." (Eph 5:25-32)

This statement becomes more meaningful, IMO, this week, when we get the images of "Apostolic/Scriptural patriarchal gender, marriage, and family theology and life."  The husband/father is called to be:


It's a fearful thing to be married in the Orthodox Church, hear the Epistle, and stare at a Crucifix (whether it's behind the Holy Table or elsewhere in the Church).
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