Author Topic: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented  (Read 8252 times)

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Offline Eruvande

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #135 on: April 12, 2017, 05:54:31 PM »
John Wesley seemed to have an understanding of grace, free-will and salvation much closer to Orthodoxy than 99% of Protestant writers/speakers. Or at least that's what numerous articles written by Orthodox Christians have argued, convincingly imo.

My husband, who is by no means vehemently anti-Orthodox, is, in my understanding, quite predisposed to many Orthodox ideas precisely because of his fAmily's Wesleyan background, going back some generations.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #136 on: April 12, 2017, 06:06:22 PM »
John Wesley seemed to have an understanding of grace, free-will and salvation much closer to Orthodoxy than 99% of Protestant writers/speakers. Or at least that's what numerous articles written by Orthodox Christians have argued, convincingly imo.
I believe it in that John Wesley was coming from Anglicanism, which is far more like Orthodoxy on these questions than is the rest of Reformed Protestantism (if one classifies Methodists as "Reformed Protestants"). So like you I sympathize with what he says about grace.

I do see Wesley and Methodism as a more low church Protestant branch-off of Anglicanism:
Quote
As [Wesley's] societies multiplied, they adopted the elements of an ecclesiastical system. The divide between Wesley and the Church of England widened. ...When, in 1746, Wesley read Lord King's account of the primitive church, he became convinced that the concept of apostolic succession in Anglicanism was a "fable".[50] He wrote that he was "a scriptural episkopos as much as many men in England."
...
In 1787, Coke and Asbury persuaded the American Methodists to refer to them as bishops rather than superintendents,[55] overruling Wesley's objections to the change.[56]

His brother, Charles, was alarmed by the ordinations and Wesley's evolving view of the matter. He begged Wesley to stop before he had "quite broken down the bridge" and not embitter his [Charles'] last moments on earth, nor "leave an indelible blot on our memory."... Although Wesley rejoiced that the Methodists in America were free, he advised his English followers to remain in the established church and he himself died within it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wesley#Ordination_of_ministers

If I wanted to persuade Protestants about Theosis in a discussion I was having with them, I could find it helpful to using Methodist, Wesleyan and Anglican ideas on this.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2017, 06:08:08 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline recent convert

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #137 on: April 12, 2017, 08:41:27 PM »
Has anyone mentioned a Protestant theologian named: Arminius in this thread? I do not know much about him, but I believe he was opposed to Calvinism & had some orthodox tendencies.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #138 on: April 12, 2017, 09:24:42 PM »
Has anyone mentioned a Protestant theologian named: Arminius in this thread?
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Hello. I know it's a long thread. If in the future you wish to search through the threads messages there is a button next to the word pages at the top where you can do this.

To answer your question, Yes there was some mention of his ideas and movement, like:

As Metropolitan Kallistos Ware points out, negative proselytism (of the sort some fundamentalist Calvinists use vs. Rome, Arminians, and so on, the nadir being Westboro Baptist Church), is "profoundly unorthodox."  A parish priest of mine told me once that no one can ever be argued into Orthodoxy. 

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Offline beebert

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #139 on: April 13, 2017, 04:55:13 AM »
You've got. to. slow. down.

And you're not being fair. You are cherry-picking the worst quotes you can find

Quite so. One could do the same with Orthodox writers. Think of Botsis on Protestantism.
Maybe it is true that I overreacted and was a bit unfair. Though I did never say that all calvinists are evil or that calvinists can not be Christians or anything like that. I am sure there are loving calvinists. But when someone like Jonathan Edwards says that “in hell God manifests his being and perfections only in hatred and wrath, and hatred without love.”, then I think it is extremely seriously wrong. This is a wicked statement. Period. Jonathan Edwards also claimed that from the beginning the non-elect are objects of God's "eternal hatred". This is according to me, a very blasphemous and wicked thing to say.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 05:12:50 AM by beebert »
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Offline beebert

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #140 on: April 13, 2017, 07:37:30 AM »
I must say that I truly object the calvinist and even protestant soteriology in general. It has Turned in to heavenly utilitarism. Only the view of People like Dostoevsky, Silouan and Sophrony I find truly honest and worthy of Christ. The redemption isnt about scape-goating. No, just like Christ Carried my guilt and sin, I am obligated to carry the sin and guilt of my neighbour and to repent for all. Only that I consider worthy of Christ. Or as Fr Sophrony points out; if viewed in purely juridical terms the notion of vicarious repentance – of laying one person’s guilt upon another – makes no sense; it is simply ‘not fair’. But the love of Christ is not limited to juridical norms:

"The spirit of Christian love speaks otherwise, seeing nothing strange but something rather natural in sharing the guilt of those we love – even in assuming full responsibility for their wrong-doing. Indeed, it is only in this bearing of another’s guilt that the authenticity of love is made manifest and develops into full awareness of self."

(https://orthodoxcityhermit.com/category/20th-century-saints/st-silouan-the-athonite/)

When Adam fell, the whole creation fell with him; and by the same token our human salvation will inaugurate the salvation of the total cosmos. As Fr Sophrony puts it, ‘Every saint is a phenomenon of cosmic character’. We are not saved from the world but with the world.

This understanding had a scriptural basis. Remember John the baptist. He says "Behold the lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world". He doesn't say "sins" of the world But "sin " of the world.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 07:48:51 AM by beebert »
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Offline beebert

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #141 on: April 18, 2017, 11:16:45 AM »
Has anyone mentioned a Protestant theologian named: Arminius in this thread? I do not know much about him, but I believe he was opposed to Calvinism & had some orthodox tendencies.
Arminius was certainly closer in his theology to orthodoxy than the demonic calvinist theology. But IMO calvinism is theology straight from hell. There aren't many things that are worse than calvinism IMO when it comes to the view of who God is. Though Arminius had some serious errors in his theology as well, it is hard to blame him considering the environment he was in. Honestly though, basically the whole western view of christianity is upside down and wretched. They basically have them selves to blame in a lot of ways over the fact that atheism has grown so much in the west. When one looks at the history of western christianity, one is not surprised. Western christianity is basically the most brutal religion in the history of the world... Only competing with islam. Catholicism... And then came Calvin and Luther... Distorted views of God, of redemption, of heaven and hell... Well they got most things wrong. In my opinion, much of it is laughable really. Though at the same time very sad.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 11:34:31 AM by beebert »
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Offline BCsenior

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #142 on: April 20, 2017, 02:17:05 PM »
I'm not sure if what I see in the NT is Calvinistic or not.

First, man is a spiritual idiot … just consider the historical variety of religions, cults, sects, etc.

• man is born with an inherited sin nature … requires a separate thread to list the many verses!
• man is spiritually dead in his sins … Eph 2:1-5, Col 2:13, Rom 4:17, 1 Cor 1:9-10, 1 Pet 4:6, Rev 3:1
• man is a captive to the law of sin and death … Rom 8:2, Rom 8:6
• man is an enemy of God … Rom 8:7
• man is a slave of sin … John 8:34, Rom 6:12-22, Gal 4:7

• man is spiritually blind and deaf … Matt 13:13-15, John 9:39, John 12:39-40, Eph 4:18
• man is unable to understand the things of God (they are foolishness) … 1 Cor 2:14
• man is seeing the gospel as utter foolishness … 1 Cor 1:18
• man is unable to believe the truth of the gospel because it is veiled … 2 Cor 3:14-16, 2 Cor 4:3

• man is blinded by Satan … Acts 26:18, 2 Cor 4:3-4
• man is controlled (ruled) by Satan … John 12:31, 1 John 5:19, Acts 26:18, Eph 2:2
• man is deceived by Satan … Rev 12:9, John 8:44, 2 Cor 11:14
• man is a captive of Satan unto death … Heb 2:14-15, Luke 4:18, 2 Tim 2:26, Eph 4:8

• man is unable to attain righteousness by doing good works  … Isaiah 64:6, Gal 2:16, Titus 3:5
• man is unable to be saved by his own desire or works  … Rom 9:16, Eph 2:8-9
• man is only able to be saved by the grace and mercy of God  … Eph 2:8-9, Titus 3:4-7

Therefore, it is totally up to God to come to man’s rescue and save him!
Jesus says, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” (John 14:15, 21, 23, 24)
Jesus says, “if anyone keeps My word, he shall never see death.” (John 8:51)
Jesus says, “My sheep … follow me. And I give them eternal life” (John 10:27-28)
Jesus says, “this is eternal life, that they may know … Jesus Christ” (John 17:3)
John says, “we know Him, if we keep His commandments.” (1 John 2:3)
Does anyone go to heaven who does not love Jesus, and know Him, and follow Him,
and keep His commandments?

Offline beebert

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #143 on: April 20, 2017, 02:40:33 PM »
I'm not sure if what I see in the NT is Calvinistic or not.

First, man is a spiritual idiot … just consider the historical variety of religions, cults, sects, etc.

• man is born with an inherited sin nature … requires a separate thread to list the many verses!
• man is spiritually dead in his sins … Eph 2:1-5, Col 2:13, Rom 4:17, 1 Cor 1:9-10, 1 Pet 4:6, Rev 3:1
• man is a captive to the law of sin and death … Rom 8:2, Rom 8:6
• man is an enemy of God … Rom 8:7
• man is a slave of sin … John 8:34, Rom 6:12-22, Gal 4:7

• man is spiritually blind and deaf … Matt 13:13-15, John 9:39, John 12:39-40, Eph 4:18
• man is unable to understand the things of God (they are foolishness) … 1 Cor 2:14
• man is seeing the gospel as utter foolishness … 1 Cor 1:18
• man is unable to believe the truth of the gospel because it is veiled … 2 Cor 3:14-16, 2 Cor 4:3

• man is blinded by Satan … Acts 26:18, 2 Cor 4:3-4
• man is controlled (ruled) by Satan … John 12:31, 1 John 5:19, Acts 26:18, Eph 2:2
• man is deceived by Satan … Rev 12:9, John 8:44, 2 Cor 11:14
• man is a captive of Satan unto death … Heb 2:14-15, Luke 4:18, 2 Tim 2:26, Eph 4:8

• man is unable to attain righteousness by doing good works  … Isaiah 64:6, Gal 2:16, Titus 3:5
• man is unable to be saved by his own desire or works  … Rom 9:16, Eph 2:8-9
• man is only able to be saved by the grace and mercy of God  … Eph 2:8-9, Titus 3:4-7

Therefore, it is totally up to God to come to man’s rescue and save him!
Nothing of the above proves calvinism. Rather it proves how calvinism can twist scriptural verses, just like satan does. Rather, calvinism proves how man is a spiritual idiot if anything. And calvinism should be counted as one of the cults in "the historical variety of religions, cults, sects, etc." that proves man's stupidity. Because calvinism is one of the great spiritual sicknesses on earth, created by a morally reprehensible lawyer. If calvinism is true then God is evil and every calvinist is evil for bringing a child to this sick life. If calvinism is true, then giving birth to a child as an "enlightened and saved" calvinist would be the biggest proof of man being a spiritual idiot so horrible that not even his moral monster God can save him. Calvinism could have been true if man was demanded to hate other human beings, just like the calvinist God hates them, since calvinism is a system of hatred. I don't understand how one can seriously believe that Christ came to earth, God incarnated, the light of hope, just to say that the majority of mankind has no hope. No. Calvinism is pure blasphemy, invented by men who do not care if they trample on others by their preaching and lead others to hell as long as they can assure that they are saved themselves..
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 03:05:02 PM by beebert »
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Offline ttcmacro

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #144 on: April 20, 2017, 03:12:23 PM »
I'm not sure if what I see in the NT is Calvinistic or not.

First, man is a spiritual idiot … just consider the historical variety of religions, cults, sects, etc.

• man is born with an inherited sin nature … requires a separate thread to list the many verses!
• man is spiritually dead in his sins … Eph 2:1-5, Col 2:13, Rom 4:17, 1 Cor 1:9-10, 1 Pet 4:6, Rev 3:1
• man is a captive to the law of sin and death … Rom 8:2, Rom 8:6
• man is an enemy of God … Rom 8:7
• man is a slave of sin … John 8:34, Rom 6:12-22, Gal 4:7

• man is spiritually blind and deaf … Matt 13:13-15, John 9:39, John 12:39-40, Eph 4:18
• man is unable to understand the things of God (they are foolishness) … 1 Cor 2:14
• man is seeing the gospel as utter foolishness … 1 Cor 1:18
• man is unable to believe the truth of the gospel because it is veiled … 2 Cor 3:14-16, 2 Cor 4:3

• man is blinded by Satan … Acts 26:18, 2 Cor 4:3-4
• man is controlled (ruled) by Satan … John 12:31, 1 John 5:19, Acts 26:18, Eph 2:2
• man is deceived by Satan … Rev 12:9, John 8:44, 2 Cor 11:14
• man is a captive of Satan unto death … Heb 2:14-15, Luke 4:18, 2 Tim 2:26, Eph 4:8

• man is unable to attain righteousness by doing good works  … Isaiah 64:6, Gal 2:16, Titus 3:5
• man is unable to be saved by his own desire or works  … Rom 9:16, Eph 2:8-9
• man is only able to be saved by the grace and mercy of God  … Eph 2:8-9, Titus 3:4-7

Therefore, it is totally up to God to come to man’s rescue and save him!

It is amazing how many of the above citations are from Paul's writings...nothing wrong with that, they are included in the New Testament for a reason. But Calvinism relies on the idea of elevating the writings of Paul above all others in the NT, or using Paul to interpret the gospels (and of course interpreting Paul in a certain way). Paul's letters were pastoral letters, I'm not sure it is appropriate to threat them as systematic theology. Why not let the gospels speak for themselves? They clearly don't advocate Calvinism.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #145 on: April 20, 2017, 03:41:48 PM »
I'm not sure if what I see in the NT is Calvinistic or not.

First, man is a spiritual idiot
… just consider the historical variety of religions, cults, sects, etc.
This thesis is hard to agree with, and I am not sure that this thesis even agrees with Calvinism.
Were man purely devoid of spiritual sense and spiritual mind, spiritual perception and spiritual reason, it would be impossible to judge him morally any more than judge an insane person.

Second, I am skeptical that Calvin himself taught this. He repeatedly and openly resorted to human reason as a main buttress for his claims, including clearly mistaken ones. He talked about what he found to be the ridiculousness of claims that Christ's own body was directly on the Eucharist table like Catholicism, Luther and Orthodoxy teach based on his criteria of reason and the "natural order". He also taught geocentricism by justifying it on the claim that it's obvious "to all" that it is the sun that revolves around the earth.

Third, if one decides that the number of religions as the criteria for judging spiritual idiocy, then if one takes Monotheism to be true, then it suggests that man is not a spiritual idiot, as most people are monotheists, and at least theists, believing in God and morality. Besides that, about a third accept Christianity, and beyond that at least Muslims call him Christ in Arabic (al-Masih) and think he was a righteous prophet, which contradicts total idiocy.

At the same time, Calvinism and Reformed Protestantism is shattered into dozens or hundreds of sects, which by your criteria suggests that it is Calvinism that is spiritual idiocy.

In the Biblical view, man is not really "totally depraved" or totally wicked or totally insane. Man has reason and a conscience. Paul talks about conscience being a law for the pagan gentiles.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 03:44:22 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline nothing

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #146 on: April 20, 2017, 07:28:51 PM »
Augustine: all people are doomed to incline towards evil and slaves to sin eventhough God wills all men to be saved some will not
calvin: hold my beer
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #147 on: April 20, 2017, 09:42:07 PM »
I'm not sure if what I see in the NT is Calvinistic or not.

First, man is a spiritual idiot … just consider the historical variety of religions, cults, sects, etc.

• man is born with an inherited sin nature … requires a separate thread to list the many verses!
• man is spiritually dead in his sins … Eph 2:1-5, Col 2:13, Rom 4:17, 1 Cor 1:9-10, 1 Pet 4:6, Rev 3:1
• man is a captive to the law of sin and death … Rom 8:2, Rom 8:6
• man is an enemy of God … Rom 8:7
• man is a slave of sin … John 8:34, Rom 6:12-22, Gal 4:7

• man is spiritually blind and deaf … Matt 13:13-15, John 9:39, John 12:39-40, Eph 4:18
• man is unable to understand the things of God (they are foolishness) … 1 Cor 2:14
• man is seeing the gospel as utter foolishness … 1 Cor 1:18
• man is unable to believe the truth of the gospel because it is veiled … 2 Cor 3:14-16, 2 Cor 4:3

• man is blinded by Satan … Acts 26:18, 2 Cor 4:3-4
• man is controlled (ruled) by Satan … John 12:31, 1 John 5:19, Acts 26:18, Eph 2:2
• man is deceived by Satan … Rev 12:9, John 8:44, 2 Cor 11:14
• man is a captive of Satan unto death … Heb 2:14-15, Luke 4:18, 2 Tim 2:26, Eph 4:8

• man is unable to attain righteousness by doing good works  … Isaiah 64:6, Gal 2:16, Titus 3:5
• man is unable to be saved by his own desire or works  … Rom 9:16, Eph 2:8-9
• man is only able to be saved by the grace and mercy of God  … Eph 2:8-9, Titus 3:4-7

Therefore, it is totally up to God to come to man’s rescue and save him!

It is amazing how many of the above citations are from Paul's writings...nothing wrong with that, they are included in the New Testament for a reason. But Calvinism relies on the idea of elevating the writings of Paul above all others in the NT, or using Paul to interpret the gospels (and of course interpreting Paul in a certain way). Paul's letters were pastoral letters, I'm not sure it is appropriate to threat them as systematic theology. Why not let the gospels speak for themselves? They clearly don't advocate Calvinism.

If true, this might also explain why so many Calvinist movements tended toward universalism (including, obviously, Universalists, which were quite a large Calvinist denomination before they sank to the handful of Unitarian Church-absorbed hippy New Agers they are today, but also less-obvious groups like Mark Driscoll's), since St. Paul pens many passages that can be read as teaching universal salvation.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 09:42:44 PM by Porter ODoran »
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Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #148 on: April 20, 2017, 10:04:04 PM »
I'm not sure if what I see in the NT is Calvinistic or not.

First, man is a spiritual idiot … just consider the historical variety of religions, cults, sects, etc.

• man is born with an inherited sin nature … requires a separate thread to list the many verses!
• man is spiritually dead in his sins … Eph 2:1-5, Col 2:13, Rom 4:17, 1 Cor 1:9-10, 1 Pet 4:6, Rev 3:1
• man is a captive to the law of sin and death … Rom 8:2, Rom 8:6
• man is an enemy of God … Rom 8:7
• man is a slave of sin … John 8:34, Rom 6:12-22, Gal 4:7

• man is spiritually blind and deaf … Matt 13:13-15, John 9:39, John 12:39-40, Eph 4:18
• man is unable to understand the things of God (they are foolishness) … 1 Cor 2:14
• man is seeing the gospel as utter foolishness … 1 Cor 1:18
• man is unable to believe the truth of the gospel because it is veiled … 2 Cor 3:14-16, 2 Cor 4:3

• man is blinded by Satan … Acts 26:18, 2 Cor 4:3-4
• man is controlled (ruled) by Satan … John 12:31, 1 John 5:19, Acts 26:18, Eph 2:2
• man is deceived by Satan … Rev 12:9, John 8:44, 2 Cor 11:14
• man is a captive of Satan unto death … Heb 2:14-15, Luke 4:18, 2 Tim 2:26, Eph 4:8

• man is unable to attain righteousness by doing good works  … Isaiah 64:6, Gal 2:16, Titus 3:5
• man is unable to be saved by his own desire or works  … Rom 9:16, Eph 2:8-9
• man is only able to be saved by the grace and mercy of God  … Eph 2:8-9, Titus 3:4-7

Therefore, it is totally up to God to come to man’s rescue and save him!

It is amazing how many of the above citations are from Paul's writings...nothing wrong with that, they are included in the New Testament for a reason. But Calvinism relies on the idea of elevating the writings of Paul above all others in the NT, or using Paul to interpret the gospels (and of course interpreting Paul in a certain way). Paul's letters were pastoral letters, I'm not sure it is appropriate to threat them as systematic theology. Why not let the gospels speak for themselves? They clearly don't advocate Calvinism.

If true, this might also explain why so many Calvinist movements tended toward universalism (including, obviously, Universalists, which were quite a large Calvinist denomination before they sank to the handful of Unitarian Church-absorbed hippy New Agers they are today, but also less-obvious groups like Mark Driscoll's), since St. Paul pens many passages that can be read as teaching universal salvation.
Seems legit (though obviously not Orthodox). "God wills that all men be saved", therefore you WILL be saved and there's NOTHING you can do about it!  :police:
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Offline ttcmacro

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #149 on: April 20, 2017, 10:13:40 PM »

If true, this might also explain why so many Calvinist movements tended toward universalism (including, obviously, Universalists, which were quite a large Calvinist denomination before they sank to the handful of Unitarian Church-absorbed hippy New Agers they are today, but also less-obvious groups like Mark Driscoll's), since St. Paul pens many passages that can be read as teaching universal salvation.


Interesting point, I hadn't really thought about the connection before.

Mark Driscoll is leading a group of universalists?  ;D Do you mean Rob Bell? Mark Driscoll seems to like to talk about hell quite a bit.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #150 on: April 20, 2017, 11:23:17 PM »

If true, this might also explain why so many Calvinist movements tended toward universalism (including, obviously, Universalists, which were quite a large Calvinist denomination before they sank to the handful of Unitarian Church-absorbed hippy New Agers they are today, but also less-obvious groups like Mark Driscoll's), since St. Paul pens many passages that can be read as teaching universal salvation.


Interesting point, I hadn't really thought about the connection before.

Mark Driscoll is leading a group of universalists?  ;D Do you mean Rob Bell? Mark Driscoll seems to like to talk about hell quite a bit.

He's been an explicit universalist when backed into a metaphysical corner. Also, I had a bunch of fellow students who attended Mars Hill and none of them were even aware that damnation is a part of Calvinism, except maybe for the Devil. Their presentation on Calvin got pretty awkward pretty quick when Arminian students started pointing out the unreasonable wrath T.U.L.I.P. imputes to God.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #151 on: April 20, 2017, 11:24:28 PM »
I'm not sure if what I see in the NT is Calvinistic or not.

First, man is a spiritual idiot … just consider the historical variety of religions, cults, sects, etc.

• man is born with an inherited sin nature … requires a separate thread to list the many verses!
• man is spiritually dead in his sins … Eph 2:1-5, Col 2:13, Rom 4:17, 1 Cor 1:9-10, 1 Pet 4:6, Rev 3:1
• man is a captive to the law of sin and death … Rom 8:2, Rom 8:6
• man is an enemy of God … Rom 8:7
• man is a slave of sin … John 8:34, Rom 6:12-22, Gal 4:7

• man is spiritually blind and deaf … Matt 13:13-15, John 9:39, John 12:39-40, Eph 4:18
• man is unable to understand the things of God (they are foolishness) … 1 Cor 2:14
• man is seeing the gospel as utter foolishness … 1 Cor 1:18
• man is unable to believe the truth of the gospel because it is veiled … 2 Cor 3:14-16, 2 Cor 4:3

• man is blinded by Satan … Acts 26:18, 2 Cor 4:3-4
• man is controlled (ruled) by Satan … John 12:31, 1 John 5:19, Acts 26:18, Eph 2:2
• man is deceived by Satan … Rev 12:9, John 8:44, 2 Cor 11:14
• man is a captive of Satan unto death … Heb 2:14-15, Luke 4:18, 2 Tim 2:26, Eph 4:8

• man is unable to attain righteousness by doing good works  … Isaiah 64:6, Gal 2:16, Titus 3:5
• man is unable to be saved by his own desire or works  … Rom 9:16, Eph 2:8-9
• man is only able to be saved by the grace and mercy of God  … Eph 2:8-9, Titus 3:4-7

Therefore, it is totally up to God to come to man’s rescue and save him!

It is amazing how many of the above citations are from Paul's writings...nothing wrong with that, they are included in the New Testament for a reason. But Calvinism relies on the idea of elevating the writings of Paul above all others in the NT, or using Paul to interpret the gospels (and of course interpreting Paul in a certain way). Paul's letters were pastoral letters, I'm not sure it is appropriate to threat them as systematic theology. Why not let the gospels speak for themselves? They clearly don't advocate Calvinism.

If true, this might also explain why so many Calvinist movements tended toward universalism (including, obviously, Universalists, which were quite a large Calvinist denomination before they sank to the handful of Unitarian Church-absorbed hippy New Agers they are today, but also less-obvious groups like Mark Driscoll's), since St. Paul pens many passages that can be read as teaching universal salvation.
Seems legit (though obviously not Orthodox). "God wills that all men be saved", therefore you WILL be saved and there's NOTHING you can do about it!  :police:

I know it's not what you consciously mean, but your post makes it sound like you're asserting St. Paul was not orthodox.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 11:25:16 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline BCsenior

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #152 on: April 21, 2017, 01:41:07 PM »
Nothing of the above proves calvinism. Rather it proves how calvinism can twist scriptural verses, just like satan does.

Great, now instead of venting your emotions over the issue, why don't you deal with the verses?
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 01:41:20 PM by BCsenior »
Jesus says, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” (John 14:15, 21, 23, 24)
Jesus says, “if anyone keeps My word, he shall never see death.” (John 8:51)
Jesus says, “My sheep … follow me. And I give them eternal life” (John 10:27-28)
Jesus says, “this is eternal life, that they may know … Jesus Christ” (John 17:3)
John says, “we know Him, if we keep His commandments.” (1 John 2:3)
Does anyone go to heaven who does not love Jesus, and know Him, and follow Him,
and keep His commandments?

Offline BCsenior

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #153 on: April 21, 2017, 01:48:31 PM »
It is amazing how many of the above citations are from Paul's writings...nothing wrong with that, they are included in the New Testament for a reason. But Calvinism relies on the idea of elevating the writings of Paul above all others in the NT, or using Paul to interpret the gospels (and of course interpreting Paul in a certain way). Paul's letters were pastoral letters, I'm not sure it is appropriate to threat them as systematic theology. Why not let the gospels speak for themselves? They clearly don't advocate Calvinism.

Okay, let's look at Jesus' John 3:16 ...
"Whosoever" believes (note: verb tense, etc. indicates continuous action) is on his/her way!

IMO, the "whosoever" people have been given a seed of faith, enabling them to believe.

The LORD is an absolute genius with how He has worded His Scriptures!
So is Paul ... after all, he was trained by the LORD for 17 years in the desert places
on how to deal with the churches before really beginning his ministry to the Gentiles.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 02:15:45 PM by BCsenior »
Jesus says, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” (John 14:15, 21, 23, 24)
Jesus says, “if anyone keeps My word, he shall never see death.” (John 8:51)
Jesus says, “My sheep … follow me. And I give them eternal life” (John 10:27-28)
Jesus says, “this is eternal life, that they may know … Jesus Christ” (John 17:3)
John says, “we know Him, if we keep His commandments.” (1 John 2:3)
Does anyone go to heaven who does not love Jesus, and know Him, and follow Him,
and keep His commandments?

Offline BCsenior

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #154 on: April 21, 2017, 01:54:12 PM »
First, man is a spiritual idiot … just consider the historical variety of religions, cults, sects, etc.
This thesis is hard to agree with, and I am not sure that this thesis even agrees with Calvinism.
Were man purely devoid of spiritual sense and spiritual mind, spiritual perception and spiritual reason, it would be impossible to judge him morally any more than judge an insane person.

Spiritual idiocy is just a by-product of our fallen condition, i.e. our inherited sinful condition.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 01:54:51 PM by BCsenior »
Jesus says, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” (John 14:15, 21, 23, 24)
Jesus says, “if anyone keeps My word, he shall never see death.” (John 8:51)
Jesus says, “My sheep … follow me. And I give them eternal life” (John 10:27-28)
Jesus says, “this is eternal life, that they may know … Jesus Christ” (John 17:3)
John says, “we know Him, if we keep His commandments.” (1 John 2:3)
Does anyone go to heaven who does not love Jesus, and know Him, and follow Him,
and keep His commandments?

Offline BCsenior

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #155 on: April 21, 2017, 01:57:18 PM »
God wills all men to be saved some will not

Yes, God desires that all men be saved.
But, because of our free-will, etc. many will not make it.

Let's elaborate ...
The LORD has seen the beginning from the end of man's history,
and so He has determined WHO He would predestine, elect, call, etc.
However, from the many who are called only a few are chosen (for salvation).
Because many refuse to co-operate with the Holy Spirit to be fully sanctified unto holiness.
Paul gives the formula:
Be a slave of obedience unto righteousness unto holiness (Romans 6:16).
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 02:24:53 PM by BCsenior »
Jesus says, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” (John 14:15, 21, 23, 24)
Jesus says, “if anyone keeps My word, he shall never see death.” (John 8:51)
Jesus says, “My sheep … follow me. And I give them eternal life” (John 10:27-28)
Jesus says, “this is eternal life, that they may know … Jesus Christ” (John 17:3)
John says, “we know Him, if we keep His commandments.” (1 John 2:3)
Does anyone go to heaven who does not love Jesus, and know Him, and follow Him,
and keep His commandments?

Offline Hinterlander

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #156 on: April 21, 2017, 01:58:43 PM »
Has anyone mentioned a Protestant theologian named: Arminius in this thread? I do not know much about him, but I believe he was opposed to Calvinism & had some orthodox tendencies.
Arminius was certainly closer in his theology to orthodoxy than the demonic calvinist theology. But IMO calvinism is theology straight from hell. There aren't many things that are worse than calvinism IMO when it comes to the view of who God is. Though Arminius had some serious errors in his theology as well, it is hard to blame him considering the environment he was in. Honestly though, basically the whole western view of christianity is upside down and wretched. They basically have them selves to blame in a lot of ways over the fact that atheism has grown so much in the west. When one looks at the history of western christianity, one is not surprised. Western christianity is basically the most brutal religion in the history of the world... Only competing with islam. Catholicism... And then came Calvin and Luther... Distorted views of God, of redemption, of heaven and hell... Well they got most things wrong. In my opinion, much of it is laughable really. Though at the same time very sad.

You seem consumed by your zeal to repudiate Calvinism. As someone who was raised by Calvinists, graduated from Calvin College and still attends a confessional Protestant church that adheres to Calvinist doctrines - I will say that your doing a poor job and that resorting to adjectives like "demonic" reveals only your evident bitterness and anger.

The teachings of Jacobus Ariminius are what led ultimately to the Synod of Dordt.  The Canons of Dordt remain one of the Three Forms of Unity that make up the Confessional foundation for the Dutch Reformed churches. The Canons of Dordt are also the principal source for the acronym "TULIP".

I would point Calvinists in this thread to visit the Orthodox-Reformed Bridge to find a better critique of Calvinism than the ravings found in this this thread.

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxbridge/

Offline BCsenior

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #157 on: April 21, 2017, 01:59:58 PM »
Seems legit (though obviously not Orthodox). "God wills that all men be saved", therefore you WILL be saved and there's NOTHING you can do about it!  :police:

Someone needs to carefully check the Greek to determine if it means "wills' or "desires".
Jesus says, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” (John 14:15, 21, 23, 24)
Jesus says, “if anyone keeps My word, he shall never see death.” (John 8:51)
Jesus says, “My sheep … follow me. And I give them eternal life” (John 10:27-28)
Jesus says, “this is eternal life, that they may know … Jesus Christ” (John 17:3)
John says, “we know Him, if we keep His commandments.” (1 John 2:3)
Does anyone go to heaven who does not love Jesus, and know Him, and follow Him,
and keep His commandments?

Offline BCsenior

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #158 on: April 21, 2017, 02:10:47 PM »
I had a bunch of fellow students who attended Mars Hill ...

I stood on Mars Hill (in Athens), which is only 3-4 large boulders together.
Yes, I was moved by the realization of where I was standing.
Jesus says, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” (John 14:15, 21, 23, 24)
Jesus says, “if anyone keeps My word, he shall never see death.” (John 8:51)
Jesus says, “My sheep … follow me. And I give them eternal life” (John 10:27-28)
Jesus says, “this is eternal life, that they may know … Jesus Christ” (John 17:3)
John says, “we know Him, if we keep His commandments.” (1 John 2:3)
Does anyone go to heaven who does not love Jesus, and know Him, and follow Him,
and keep His commandments?

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #159 on: April 21, 2017, 02:49:23 PM »
Seems legit (though obviously not Orthodox). "God wills that all men be saved", therefore you WILL be saved and there's NOTHING you can do about it!  :police:

Someone needs to carefully check the Greek to determine if it means "wills' or "desires".

It seems θέλει is the word. I suspect it could be either one. Is there really a difference?
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline BCsenior

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #160 on: April 21, 2017, 02:51:16 PM »
Seems legit (though obviously not Orthodox). "God wills that all men be saved", therefore you WILL be saved and there's NOTHING you can do about it!  :police:

Someone needs to carefully check the Greek to determine if it means "wills' or "desires".

It seems θέλει is the word. I suspect it could be either one. Is there really a difference?

Justin says "wills" means there's NOTHING you can do about it!

But, the will of God is not always done on earth.
Jesus says IF you don't do the Father's will, He will say, "I never knew (approved of) you!" (Matt 7:23)
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 02:54:53 PM by BCsenior »
Jesus says, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” (John 14:15, 21, 23, 24)
Jesus says, “if anyone keeps My word, he shall never see death.” (John 8:51)
Jesus says, “My sheep … follow me. And I give them eternal life” (John 10:27-28)
Jesus says, “this is eternal life, that they may know … Jesus Christ” (John 17:3)
John says, “we know Him, if we keep His commandments.” (1 John 2:3)
Does anyone go to heaven who does not love Jesus, and know Him, and follow Him,
and keep His commandments?

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #161 on: April 21, 2017, 02:58:16 PM »
I don't think Justin is saying the word "wills" inherently means that, just that the passage could be skewed that way, just as Calvinists skew certain passages their way (e.g. '"world" in John 3:16 means the "world" of the elect!'). Justin didn't intend his reading as an authoritative one. 
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 02:59:27 PM by Iconodule »
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #162 on: April 21, 2017, 03:00:42 PM »
But, the will of God is not always done on earth.
Jesus says IF you don't do the Father's will, He will say, "I never knew (approved of) you!" (Matt 7:23)

But if everything is foreordained then God's will is always done on Earth.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline beebert

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #163 on: April 21, 2017, 04:48:09 PM »
Has anyone mentioned a Protestant theologian named: Arminius in this thread? I do not know much about him, but I believe he was opposed to Calvinism & had some orthodox tendencies.
Arminius was certainly closer in his theology to orthodoxy than the demonic calvinist theology. But IMO calvinism is theology straight from hell. There aren't many things that are worse than calvinism IMO when it comes to the view of who God is. Though Arminius had some serious errors in his theology as well, it is hard to blame him considering the environment he was in. Honestly though, basically the whole western view of christianity is upside down and wretched. They basically have them selves to blame in a lot of ways over the fact that atheism has grown so much in the west. When one looks at the history of western christianity, one is not surprised. Western christianity is basically the most brutal religion in the history of the world... Only competing with islam. Catholicism... And then came Calvin and Luther... Distorted views of God, of redemption, of heaven and hell... Well they got most things wrong. In my opinion, much of it is laughable really. Though at the same time very sad.

You seem consumed by your zeal to repudiate Calvinism. As someone who was raised by Calvinists, graduated from Calvin College and still attends a confessional Protestant church that adheres to Calvinist doctrines - I will say that your doing a poor job and that resorting to adjectives like "demonic" reveals only your evident bitterness and anger.

The teachings of Jacobus Ariminius are what led ultimately to the Synod of Dordt.  The Canons of Dordt remain one of the Three Forms of Unity that make up the Confessional foundation for the Dutch Reformed churches. The Canons of Dordt are also the principal source for the acronym "TULIP".

I would point Calvinists in this thread to visit the Orthodox-Reformed Bridge to find a better critique of Calvinism than the ravings found in this this thread.

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxbridge/
Call me bitter if you want it doesnt matter. I am sorry... I dont mean to be rude or sound rude but I am not going to stop calling calvinist.theology demonic, because I am absolutely convinced that it is...
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #164 on: April 21, 2017, 05:51:30 PM »
But, the will of God is not always done on earth.
Jesus says IF you don't do the Father's will, He will say, "I never knew (approved of) you!" (Matt 7:23)

But if everything is foreordained then God's will is always done on Earth.

+1

When God predestines and foreordains, He wills...

Therefore, it's the other way around.  He predestines that ALL be saved, but the free will of man can go either way.
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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #165 on: April 21, 2017, 06:00:22 PM »
Has anyone mentioned a Protestant theologian named: Arminius in this thread? I do not know much about him, but I believe he was opposed to Calvinism & had some orthodox tendencies.
Arminius was certainly closer in his theology to orthodoxy than the demonic calvinist theology. But IMO calvinism is theology straight from hell. There aren't many things that are worse than calvinism IMO when it comes to the view of who God is. Though Arminius had some serious errors in his theology as well, it is hard to blame him considering the environment he was in. Honestly though, basically the whole western view of christianity is upside down and wretched. They basically have them selves to blame in a lot of ways over the fact that atheism has grown so much in the west. When one looks at the history of western christianity, one is not surprised. Western christianity is basically the most brutal religion in the history of the world... Only competing with islam. Catholicism... And then came Calvin and Luther... Distorted views of God, of redemption, of heaven and hell... Well they got most things wrong. In my opinion, much of it is laughable really. Though at the same time very sad.

You seem consumed by your zeal to repudiate Calvinism. As someone who was raised by Calvinists, graduated from Calvin College and still attends a confessional Protestant church that adheres to Calvinist doctrines - I will say that your doing a poor job and that resorting to adjectives like "demonic" reveals only your evident bitterness and anger.

The teachings of Jacobus Ariminius are what led ultimately to the Synod of Dordt.  The Canons of Dordt remain one of the Three Forms of Unity that make up the Confessional foundation for the Dutch Reformed churches. The Canons of Dordt are also the principal source for the acronym "TULIP".

I would point Calvinists in this thread to visit the Orthodox-Reformed Bridge to find a better critique of Calvinism than the ravings found in this this thread.

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxbridge/
Call me bitter if you want it doesnt matter. I am sorry... I dont mean to be rude or sound rude but I am not going to stop calling calvinist.theology demonic, because I am absolutely convinced that it is...

That's fine, but you're better off not talking about it unless you are specifically asked about it.  It's not good for you, and, furthermore, it's quite possible that no one cares. 
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline christiane777

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #166 on: April 21, 2017, 09:53:08 PM »
John Wesley seemed to have an understanding of grace, free-will and salvation much closer to Orthodoxy than 99% of Protestant writers/speakers. Or at least that's what numerous articles written by Orthodox Christians have argued, convincingly imo.
I believe it in that John Wesley was coming from Anglicanism, which is far more like Orthodoxy on these questions than is the rest of Reformed Protestantism (if one classifies Methodists as "Reformed Protestants"). So like you I sympathize with what he says about grace.

I do see Wesley and Methodism as a more low church Protestant branch-off of Anglicanism:
Quote
As [Wesley's] societies multiplied, they adopted the elements of an ecclesiastical system. The divide between Wesley and the Church of England widened. ...When, in 1746, Wesley read Lord King's account of the primitive church, he became convinced that the concept of apostolic succession in Anglicanism was a "fable".[50] He wrote that he was "a scriptural episkopos as much as many men in England."
...
In 1787, Coke and Asbury persuaded the American Methodists to refer to them as bishops rather than superintendents,[55] overruling Wesley's objections to the change.[56]

His brother, Charles, was alarmed by the ordinations and Wesley's evolving view of the matter. He begged Wesley to stop before he had "quite broken down the bridge" and not embitter his [Charles'] last moments on earth, nor "leave an indelible blot on our memory."... Although Wesley rejoiced that the Methodists in America were free, he advised his English followers to remain in the established church and he himself died within it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wesley#Ordination_of_ministers

If I wanted to persuade Protestants about Theosis in a discussion I was having with them, I could find it helpful to using Methodist, Wesleyan and Anglican ideas on this.

I once heard a Catholic priest say that Methodism and John Wesley was perhaps the closest branch of Protestantism to Catholicism.  I have not read anything about him, so can't comment beyond that.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #167 on: April 22, 2017, 01:55:09 AM »
What a comedian that priest must have been, as the only way that quote could make any sense at all is as a witheringly dry dig at Vatican II.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline BCsenior

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #168 on: April 22, 2017, 01:51:45 PM »
But, the will of God is not always done on earth.
Jesus says IF you don't do the Father's will, He will say, "I never knew (approved of) you!" (Matt 7:23)

But if everything is foreordained then God's will is always done on Earth.

If everything is foreordained, it makes no sense that God has given man FREE-WILL.
And boy, does he ever use it.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 01:52:13 PM by BCsenior »
Jesus says, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” (John 14:15, 21, 23, 24)
Jesus says, “if anyone keeps My word, he shall never see death.” (John 8:51)
Jesus says, “My sheep … follow me. And I give them eternal life” (John 10:27-28)
Jesus says, “this is eternal life, that they may know … Jesus Christ” (John 17:3)
John says, “we know Him, if we keep His commandments.” (1 John 2:3)
Does anyone go to heaven who does not love Jesus, and know Him, and follow Him,
and keep His commandments?

Offline BCsenior

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #169 on: April 22, 2017, 01:55:44 PM »
I am not going to stop calling calvinist.theology demonic, because I am absolutely convinced that it is...

Is that all you've got?
I thought maybe you would be showing us why some of the election verses are not election verses!
FYI, some of us are NOT hyper-Calvinists ... some of us just understand that God calls some, but not others.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 01:56:02 PM by BCsenior »
Jesus says, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” (John 14:15, 21, 23, 24)
Jesus says, “if anyone keeps My word, he shall never see death.” (John 8:51)
Jesus says, “My sheep … follow me. And I give them eternal life” (John 10:27-28)
Jesus says, “this is eternal life, that they may know … Jesus Christ” (John 17:3)
John says, “we know Him, if we keep His commandments.” (1 John 2:3)
Does anyone go to heaven who does not love Jesus, and know Him, and follow Him,
and keep His commandments?

Offline BCsenior

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #170 on: April 22, 2017, 02:02:00 PM »
When God predestines and foreordains, He wills...
Therefore, it's the other way around.  He predestines that ALL be saved, but the free will of man can go either way.

Maybe you missed it, but the theory has been pointed out here that ...
God desires that all would/could be saved, but He sees our future and then calls certain ones!
IN the OT, there are several verses saying He desires to dwell with those who have humble and contrite hearts.
He's one-up on us ... He can predestine and call those who have these hearts (however it happened).
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 02:03:36 PM by BCsenior »
Jesus says, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” (John 14:15, 21, 23, 24)
Jesus says, “if anyone keeps My word, he shall never see death.” (John 8:51)
Jesus says, “My sheep … follow me. And I give them eternal life” (John 10:27-28)
Jesus says, “this is eternal life, that they may know … Jesus Christ” (John 17:3)
John says, “we know Him, if we keep His commandments.” (1 John 2:3)
Does anyone go to heaven who does not love Jesus, and know Him, and follow Him,
and keep His commandments?

Offline beebert

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #171 on: April 22, 2017, 03:30:04 PM »
I am not going to stop calling calvinist.theology demonic, because I am absolutely convinced that it is...

Is that all you've got?
I thought maybe you would be showing us why some of the election verses are not election verses!
FYI, some of us are NOT hyper-Calvinists ... some of us just understand that God calls some, but not others.
May I ask you: Why does God call some that  he knows Will reject  him and why does he choose not to call others? Why not just reject all who he knows Will reject him? Why does he call some of them? Second: Why does he create all these souls that he nerver Calls? Since he knows from eternity that they Will reject him IF he calls them, Why does he even create them and then chooses not to call them instead? It is still his decision to create the reprobte and then not calling them right? So how is it different from "hyper-calvinism"?

What is the most important thing with christianity? To escape hell? Go to heaven for your own hedonistic  sake and pleasure? Or is it rather that God's truth is revealed and served and that human beings get to know God? Where in the bible does It  say that this life is only about what happens after death and that all christianity is about is heaven or hell, where people's destines are predetermined no mather what they do? Am I the only  one who feels that calvinism is a form of nihilism?

Who Said election verses are not election verses? Where did I say that? Where does orthodoxy say that? Could you be so kind and define election for me? And also, why does election mean calvinism?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 03:51:54 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline BCsenior

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #172 on: April 22, 2017, 04:13:36 PM »
beebert, quickly ...

You didn't deal with any of the 25+ NT verses that I presented.
You prefer to deal with your intellect and emotions,
which are part of your fallen sinful nature ... garbage.

We need to deal honestly with the Scriptures.

IMO, God desires to be seen as a just and gracious God,
i.e. He calls some whom He know will reject the call.
But, He gave them the chance, didn't He?
And He doesn't even say, "I told you so!".
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 04:14:48 PM by BCsenior »
Jesus says, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” (John 14:15, 21, 23, 24)
Jesus says, “if anyone keeps My word, he shall never see death.” (John 8:51)
Jesus says, “My sheep … follow me. And I give them eternal life” (John 10:27-28)
Jesus says, “this is eternal life, that they may know … Jesus Christ” (John 17:3)
John says, “we know Him, if we keep His commandments.” (1 John 2:3)
Does anyone go to heaven who does not love Jesus, and know Him, and follow Him,
and keep His commandments?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #173 on: April 22, 2017, 04:22:32 PM »
beebert, quickly ...

You didn't deal with any of the 25+ NT verses that I presented.
You prefer to deal with your intellect and emotions,
which are part of your fallen sinful nature ... garbage.

We need to deal honestly with the Scriptures.

IMO, God desires to be seen as a just and gracious God,
i.e. He calls some whom He know will reject the call.
But, He gave them the chance, didn't He?
And He doesn't even say, "I told you so!".

What gives us this peculiar chore? Our duty is to abide in the ancient commandments delivered to the saints. Scripture has its well-established part to play. There's no special difficulty altho pretending there is seems to make modern denominations feel special.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 04:23:45 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Velsigne

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #174 on: April 22, 2017, 06:12:10 PM »
I am not going to stop calling calvinist.theology demonic, because I am absolutely convinced that it is...

Is that all you've got?
I thought maybe you would be showing us why some of the election verses are not election verses!
FYI, some of us are NOT hyper-Calvinists ... some of us just understand that God calls some, but not others.


What exactly is the method by which God "calls" someone? 

God doesn't have a body, so just wondering if you could explain your perception, or your denomination's perception?
 

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #175 on: April 22, 2017, 07:31:45 PM »
beebert, quickly ...

You didn't deal with any of the 25+ NT verses that I presented.
You prefer to deal with your intellect and emotions,
which are part of your fallen sinful nature ... garbage.

We need to deal honestly with the Scriptures.

IMO, God desires to be seen as a just and gracious God,
i.e. He calls some whom He know will reject the call.
But, He gave them the chance, didn't He?
And He doesn't even say, "I told you so!".
Why do you presume that I prefer to deal with my kan emotions in this case? What exactly do you Think Most protestants do by the way when they deal a "honestly" with scripture that they end up with 30 000 different interpretations? We have a Church that has dealt honestly with scripture since the time of the apostles. Submit to it or remain confused and pick between the 30 000 interpretations of different denominations that the serious scripture-dealing protestants have managed to come up with. Or why not choose a new interpretation that suits your emotion and way of seriously dealing with scripture and create your own denomination?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #176 on: April 22, 2017, 10:52:32 PM »
When God predestines and foreordains, He wills...
Therefore, it's the other way around.  He predestines that ALL be saved, but the free will of man can go either way.

Maybe you missed it, but the theory has been pointed out here that ...
God desires that all would/could be saved, but He sees our future and then calls certain ones!
IN the OT, there are several verses saying He desires to dwell with those who have humble and contrite hearts.
He's one-up on us ... He can predestine and call those who have these hearts (however it happened).

The word "predestine" is not a choice, but a desire.  We are all predestined to be saved, but not all of us are willing to accept the love of God.  And so we harden our hearts until finally God gives us up to our own hardening. The word "predestine" does not mean God chose those who will be saved and those who don't.  It's a matter of speaking about the divinity.  In the same way we say God is "pre-eternal" or "pre-existent."
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Velsigne

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #177 on: April 22, 2017, 11:17:08 PM »


The word "predestine" is not a choice, but a desire.  We are all predestined to be saved, but not all of us are willing to accept the love of God.  And so we harden our hearts until finally God gives us up to our own hardening. The word "predestine" does not mean God chose those who will be saved and those who don't.  It's a matter of speaking about the divinity.  In the same way we say God is "pre-eternal" or "pre-existent."

Why would we think God gives up on anybody when we can't say exactly what God is, but can more easily say what God is not: changing and experiencing emotional disappointment as human beings do:

Quote
We, therefore, both know and confess that God is without beginning, without end, eternal and everlasting, uncreate, unchangeable, invariable, simple, uncompound, incorporeal, invisible, impalpable, uncircumscribed, infinite, incognisable, indefinable, incomprehensible, good, just, maker of all things created, almighty, all-ruling, all-surveying, of all overseer, sovereign, judge; and that God is One, that is to say, one essences; and that He is known(4), and has His being in three subsistences....

St John of Damascus
An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith
Book I CH II


Can even a human love another being who doesn't return love to them?  I thought this is in large part what Jesus Christ tasked his followers with, even if they kill our bodies, the witness of the saints is to cry out to God to forgive, for they know not what they do? 

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #178 on: April 22, 2017, 11:34:29 PM »


The word "predestine" is not a choice, but a desire.  We are all predestined to be saved, but not all of us are willing to accept the love of God.  And so we harden our hearts until finally God gives us up to our own hardening. The word "predestine" does not mean God chose those who will be saved and those who don't.  It's a matter of speaking about the divinity.  In the same way we say God is "pre-eternal" or "pre-existent."

Why would we think God gives up on anybody when we can't say exactly what God is, but can more easily say what God is not: changing and experiencing emotional disappointment as human beings do:

Quote
We, therefore, both know and confess that God is without beginning, without end, eternal and everlasting, uncreate, unchangeable, invariable, simple, uncompound, incorporeal, invisible, impalpable, uncircumscribed, infinite, incognisable, indefinable, incomprehensible, good, just, maker of all things created, almighty, all-ruling, all-surveying, of all overseer, sovereign, judge; and that God is One, that is to say, one essences; and that He is known(4), and has His being in three subsistences....

St John of Damascus
An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith
Book I CH II


Can even a human love another being who doesn't return love to them?  I thought this is in large part what Jesus Christ tasked his followers with, even if they kill our bodies, the witness of the saints is to cry out to God to forgive, for they know not what they do?

We have example from the Scriptures on God dealing with Pharaoh.  This example was repeated by St. Paul.  My thoughts on God is not merely philosophical, but Scriptural.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline beebert

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Re: Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented
« Reply #179 on: April 23, 2017, 05:09:33 AM »
Has anyone mentioned a Protestant theologian named: Arminius in this thread? I do not know much about him, but I believe he was opposed to Calvinism & had some orthodox tendencies.
Arminius was certainly closer in his theology to orthodoxy than the demonic calvinist theology. But IMO calvinism is theology straight from hell. There aren't many things that are worse than calvinism IMO when it comes to the view of who God is. Though Arminius had some serious errors in his theology as well, it is hard to blame him considering the environment he was in. Honestly though, basically the whole western view of christianity is upside down and wretched. They basically have them selves to blame in a lot of ways over the fact that atheism has grown so much in the west. When one looks at the history of western christianity, one is not surprised. Western christianity is basically the most brutal religion in the history of the world... Only competing with islam. Catholicism... And then came Calvin and Luther... Distorted views of God, of redemption, of heaven and hell... Well they got most things wrong. In my opinion, much of it is laughable really. Though at the same time very sad.

You seem consumed by your zeal to repudiate Calvinism. As someone who was raised by Calvinists, graduated from Calvin College and still attends a confessional Protestant church that adheres to Calvinist doctrines - I will say that your doing a poor job and that resorting to adjectives like "demonic" reveals only your evident bitterness and anger.

The teachings of Jacobus Ariminius are what led ultimately to the Synod of Dordt.  The Canons of Dordt remain one of the Three Forms of Unity that make up the Confessional foundation for the Dutch Reformed churches. The Canons of Dordt are also the principal source for the acronym "TULIP".

I would point Calvinists in this thread to visit the Orthodox-Reformed Bridge to find a better critique of Calvinism than the ravings found in this this thread.

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxbridge/
Call me bitter if you want it doesnt matter. I am sorry... I dont mean to be rude or sound rude but I am not going to stop calling calvinist.theology demonic, because I am absolutely convinced that it is...

That's fine, but you're better off not talking about it unless you are specifically asked about it.  It's not good for you, and, furthermore, it's quite possible that no one cares.
Okay I guess you are right mor. Sorry for everything and for my possibly disturbing behavior.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)