Author Topic: Do you believe hell and heaven are real?  (Read 11469 times)

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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Do you believe hell and heaven are real?
« Reply #135 on: April 04, 2017, 08:32:27 PM »
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A paradox indeed.  Not just against strict traditionalist Catholicism, but also against Sacred Scripture, revelation.  What will you traditionalists cook up next?
I never said demons or spirits didn't exist. I just said, I personally  never actually seen one or had any kind of paranormal/other worldy experience ever in my life. I know that may sound strange for a trad Catholic, but i'm just being brutally honest. What, do you want me to lie or make things up?

I'm sure there are plenty of people of many faiths, that have never had a visit from demons or angels yet adhere closely to the doctrines and disciplines of their religions. Matter of fact, wouldn't their belief be that much more in "believeing but not seeing?"

Quote
You don't have to read this whole thing - my point is simply that Catholics believe in demons
Where am I disputing that? I never said they didn't. Actually, there's probably a good number in the clergy that don't believe in demons.

Fact of the matter is, there are many people out there with serious psychological issues who see things that don't exist all the time. But I'm not here to filter out what's genuine from what's delusional, I can only analyze from the facts that I have or know about or go by my own personal experience. i'm not going to get into who's "crazy" or who's not. But I know to the unbeliever or the doubters and scoffers of the world, you just can't "prove" that spiriutal things exist. It's just not possible IMO.
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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Do you believe hell and heaven are real?
« Reply #136 on: April 04, 2017, 09:20:54 PM »
I'm sorry but our intending not to sin should not be an excuse to be less strict with ourselves and may never be excused. We have to pursue holiness. Jesus said he who gains his life will lose it. Paul said he disciplined his body lest after he preached to others he himself is disqualified

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Do you believe hell and heaven are real?
« Reply #137 on: April 04, 2017, 10:21:20 PM »
The only people that I said may perish are those who repent and keep the commandments who are non Christian or heretic Christians but actually our sins make us worthy of condemnation . God will not accept people to try to just perish because they don't want to be saved because they don't want to give God what belongs to Him which is their soul and they make others be okay with perishing. He draws them to Him so they must respond to Him. Even if they were to obey the commandments it would just be a work from a heart of stone to escape punishment but there wouldn't be any true love for the commandments and of God
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 10:37:52 PM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: Do you believe hell and heaven are real?
« Reply #138 on: April 04, 2017, 10:27:47 PM »
If you find your way then you'll definitely find your way through all this.



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Offline Indocern

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Re: Do you believe hell and heaven are real?
« Reply #139 on: April 04, 2017, 11:22:58 PM »
Do you believe hell and heaven are real, because I don't believe anymore in spirits and demons.

BTW, what's her name?

I don't have wife for now, but I hope God to give me wife.

Offline beebert

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Re: Do you believe hell and heaven are real?
« Reply #140 on: April 04, 2017, 11:27:06 PM »
We can't look at the problem of evil as mainstream Pagans did: as an actual force, existing substantially, fighting against Good. This is what human intuition points at, and we get confused since it's evidently incompatible with Christianity. Plotinus, although a Pagan, had a more Christian-like vision into it: Evil is not a being, it's a non-being, the absence of Good. The nature of Evil opposed the nature of Good. Blessed Augustine went on a direction similar to that of Plotinus in On the Morals of the Manichaeans, although he would argue that evil does not even have a nature, it is the falling away from nature/essence/substance, that is, an accident. If you want to read more, take a look into chapters 6 and 8 here and tell me what you think. I believe the idea of evil as non-being relates perfectly to how the Bible links hell to eternal destruction.

Now entering into my own thoughts, taking hell as a conscious eternal state or not (I don't want to retake this debate that has being rewinded so much lately on the forum), we can see it as how the damned freely chose evil, thus freely choosing non-being, therefore departing from goodness, which is being. Since God is the only one which is good by himself (see chapter 6 of my link), departing from God means necessarily departing from goodness and even from existence. Being God good by himself, he saves people from non-being. When God transfigures the world, there shall be no more evil, because there will be no absence to be felt (to understand this part better, we might inquire into the nature of the presence of God here versus after the Final Judgement, I have no idea about it, but there must be writings of the Fathers about it).

I'm trying to word this in a way that doesn't sound very confusing, feel free to tell if I have failed, lol
I agree 100 percent with this.And it is a relief to understand this More now. As opposed to the calvinist and fundamentalist view, which seems to be that GOD actually inflicts evil on sinners by torturing them actively in a literal fire as some sort of vengeful and retributive justice. Sin to begin with is an onthological phenomena and a spiritual sickness, a "No" to the Self as God intended the Self to be. Not a juridical crime.



What is your opinion on these verses ?

*Revelation 14:9-11
 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “IF anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,  he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be Tormented with Fire and Brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their Torment ascends Forever and Ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Yes What about them?
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Offline Jude1:3

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Re: Do you believe hell and heaven are real?
« Reply #141 on: April 05, 2017, 11:22:08 AM »
We can't look at the problem of evil as mainstream Pagans did: as an actual force, existing substantially, fighting against Good. This is what human intuition points at, and we get confused since it's evidently incompatible with Christianity. Plotinus, although a Pagan, had a more Christian-like vision into it: Evil is not a being, it's a non-being, the absence of Good. The nature of Evil opposed the nature of Good. Blessed Augustine went on a direction similar to that of Plotinus in On the Morals of the Manichaeans, although he would argue that evil does not even have a nature, it is the falling away from nature/essence/substance, that is, an accident. If you want to read more, take a look into chapters 6 and 8 here and tell me what you think. I believe the idea of evil as non-being relates perfectly to how the Bible links hell to eternal destruction.

Now entering into my own thoughts, taking hell as a conscious eternal state or not (I don't want to retake this debate that has being rewinded so much lately on the forum), we can see it as how the damned freely chose evil, thus freely choosing non-being, therefore departing from goodness, which is being. Since God is the only one which is good by himself (see chapter 6 of my link), departing from God means necessarily departing from goodness and even from existence. Being God good by himself, he saves people from non-being. When God transfigures the world, there shall be no more evil, because there will be no absence to be felt (to understand this part better, we might inquire into the nature of the presence of God here versus after the Final Judgement, I have no idea about it, but there must be writings of the Fathers about it).

I'm trying to word this in a way that doesn't sound very confusing, feel free to tell if I have failed, lol
I agree 100 percent with this.And it is a relief to understand this More now. As opposed to the calvinist and fundamentalist view, which seems to be that GOD actually inflicts evil on sinners by torturing them actively in a literal fire as some sort of vengeful and retributive justice. Sin to begin with is an onthological phenomena and a spiritual sickness, a "No" to the Self as God intended the Self to be. Not a juridical crime.



What is your opinion on these verses ?

*Revelation 14:9-11
 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “IF anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,  he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be Tormented with Fire and Brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their Torment ascends Forever and Ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Yes What about them?

What is your opinion on the verses ?

Offline beebert

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Re: Do you believe hell and heaven are real?
« Reply #142 on: April 05, 2017, 11:27:21 AM »
We can't look at the problem of evil as mainstream Pagans did: as an actual force, existing substantially, fighting against Good. This is what human intuition points at, and we get confused since it's evidently incompatible with Christianity. Plotinus, although a Pagan, had a more Christian-like vision into it: Evil is not a being, it's a non-being, the absence of Good. The nature of Evil opposed the nature of Good. Blessed Augustine went on a direction similar to that of Plotinus in On the Morals of the Manichaeans, although he would argue that evil does not even have a nature, it is the falling away from nature/essence/substance, that is, an accident. If you want to read more, take a look into chapters 6 and 8 here and tell me what you think. I believe the idea of evil as non-being relates perfectly to how the Bible links hell to eternal destruction.

Now entering into my own thoughts, taking hell as a conscious eternal state or not (I don't want to retake this debate that has being rewinded so much lately on the forum), we can see it as how the damned freely chose evil, thus freely choosing non-being, therefore departing from goodness, which is being. Since God is the only one which is good by himself (see chapter 6 of my link), departing from God means necessarily departing from goodness and even from existence. Being God good by himself, he saves people from non-being. When God transfigures the world, there shall be no more evil, because there will be no absence to be felt (to understand this part better, we might inquire into the nature of the presence of God here versus after the Final Judgement, I have no idea about it, but there must be writings of the Fathers about it).

I'm trying to word this in a way that doesn't sound very confusing, feel free to tell if I have failed, lol
I agree 100 percent with this.And it is a relief to understand this More now. As opposed to the calvinist and fundamentalist view, which seems to be that GOD actually inflicts evil on sinners by torturing them actively in a literal fire as some sort of vengeful and retributive justice. Sin to begin with is an onthological phenomena and a spiritual sickness, a "No" to the Self as God intended the Self to be. Not a juridical crime.



What is your opinion on these verses ?

*Revelation 14:9-11
 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “IF anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,  he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be Tormented with Fire and Brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their Torment ascends Forever and Ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Yes What about them?

What is your opinion on the verses ?
I certainly do NOT see how they suggest that God actively tortures people with a sadistic pleasure. Rather it says People Will be tormented in the presence of the lamb and his holy angels. As I read it, that means that the presence of God torments the unrepentant sinners. Not that God tortures them.  It really doesnt seem like the same thing to me. It I look at the sun directly with my Eyes Open, it Will hurt. But the sun doesn't actively inflict the pain on me.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Do you believe hell and heaven are real?
« Reply #143 on: April 05, 2017, 12:15:32 PM »
Do you believe hell and heaven are real, because I don't believe anymore in spirits and demons.

BTW, what's her name?

I don't have wife for now, but I hope God to give me wife.

You don't believe in spirits, but you believe in God enough to hope he'll give you a wife?
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Offline Jude1:3

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Re: Do you believe hell and heaven are real?
« Reply #144 on: April 05, 2017, 05:13:36 PM »

I certainly do NOT see how they suggest that God actively tortures people with a sadistic pleasure. Rather it says People Will be tormented in the presence of the lamb and his holy angels. As I read it, that means that the presence of God torments the unrepentant sinners. Not that God tortures them.  It really doesnt seem like the same thing to me. It I look at the sun directly with my Eyes Open, it Will hurt. But the sun doesn't actively inflict the pain on me.



I agree with you. Also, they will be tormented, not tortured.

I just found this : http://www.wikidiff.com/torture/torment

As verbs the difference between torment and torture is that torment is to cause severe suffering to (stronger than to vex'' but weaker than ''to torture ) while torture is to intentionally inflict severe pain or suffering on (someone).

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Do you believe hell and heaven are real?
« Reply #145 on: April 05, 2017, 11:25:48 PM »


We sometimes think we need to accept other religions as an okay path to heaven or atheism. But atheists are only good because the devil does not tempt them as much but they are inexcused because there are some christians who are very good and perhaps some are the most moral. Muslims and other religions do not follow the good commandments of Jesus perhaps not even one. In their countries they show that they wish to live according to their religion. This is taught to me by my dad.



Sorry for this it is just hate speech

We must honor all people

Sometimes atheists are better in some things from their own morality as Paul said he who does not provide for his own is worse than unbelievers

I must not demonise Muslims and all non Christians I can't say all do not wish to obey Jesus commandments for why then do some receive christ and some want to but it is difficult
I must encourage them to be righteous

We can not blame Satan for our sins we are the cause of ourselves perishing. As Jesus said we must deny ourselves

There was a rich man who did not follow Christ because of his possessions yet he still wished to follow all other commandments of the Lord
And many Jews believed but did not embrace Christ lest they should be put out of the synagogue for they loved the praise of men more than God. That is they didn't want to lose the love of their family

We must honor the accomplishments of non Christians. We must not demonise them. Clearly the bible says the devil tempts non Christians also as Paul said they sin because the spirit of the demons which works in the sons of disobedience
But in terms of worldly prosperity God blesses them because He rains on the good and evil
He blesses them that they may accept Jesus
but God sometimes refrains blessing from righteous like he did with job but in their season they shall prosper
It is this which the atheists boast against the righteous so I misrepresented the truth

I misrepresented my dad probably too because other times he speaks highly of some non Christians but if not I must not follow the negative of my dad 



Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Do you believe hell and heaven are real?
« Reply #146 on: April 05, 2017, 11:43:36 PM »


Quote
the person is being fooled by the demons to do this through pride and vainglory, actually this is how the demons mock that person, not realizing that he/she is made with honor, in the image of God and is compered to the mindless beast, even as we put chains and rings on our livestock.
You can replace the word "demons" with "friends" or whatever. But, it's definitely a flesh and blood human that's influencing and encouraging this nonsense.Again, I really don't like to put the blame on invisible spooks or entities, when the ones we have to blame are far too real and right within our midst. Again, it's behavior and personal accountablity,  not the knights in satan's service.


I don't know if I am right but I think the devil deceives us to think we can follow Christ commandments simply by our own intention but Christ thinks we should not listen to him but it is fair that he tempts us. Actually God wanted the only source of our evil to be from Satan so we won't be tempted anymore in heaven when he is destroyed. We don't have to listen to Satan so we are responsible for our own thoughts but Satan still has a part in it

But Paul say only by walking in the Spirit you can destroy the flesh
Though we are responsible to walk in the Spirit so we can't blame Satan yet we still fall in sin despite our best intentions if Christ grace does not protect us and He may not always or never protect us unless we are watching and praying

Actually some thoughts could be from us such as I will play video games instead of read my bible or do something productive God is okay with

Luke 22:21-38 Matthew Henry commentary sift as wheat peter
Vs. 21-38. How unbecoming is the worldly ambition of being the greatest, to the character of a follower of Jesus, who took upon him the form of a servant, and humbled himself to the death of the cross! In the way to eternal happiness, we must expect to be assaulted and sifted by Satan. If he cannot destroy, he will try to disgrace or distress us. Nothing more certainly forebodes a fall, in a professed follower of Christ, than self-confidence, with disregard to warnings, and contempt of danger. Unless we watch and pray always, we may be drawn in the course of the day into those sins which we were in the morning most resolved against. If believers were left to themselves, they would fall; but they are kept by the power of God, and the prayer of Christ. Our Lord gave notice of a very great change of circumstances now approaching. The disciples must not expect that their friends would be kind to them as they had been. Therefore, he that has a purse, let him take it, for he may need it. They must now expect that their enemies would be more fierce than they had been, and they would need weapons. At the time the apostles understood Christ to mean real weapons, but he spake only of the weapons of the spiritual warfare. The sword of the Spirit is the sword with which the disciples of Christ must furnish themselves.
That's all  well and good Mike.

But, ultimately, we're all responsible for our own actions.

Not Beelzebub or anyone else.

I'll take personal accountability over the prince of darkness and his minions any day.



Fortunately for you, and the rest of us, God doesn't see all your behavior on earth as your fault. We're in a crucible of fire here, in this life, oppressed in every way the Accuser can invent, and this is meant to make a god of us, but it also often makes us devils. In the next life, if we pass the test, we'll be free to be ourselves, true children of God. Fortunately for you, that person will be revealed to be not much like the person you seem today. We should be on our faces before God begging for that eventual release.

Put conversely, if there weren't any devils, how could there be a Charles Martel?
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Offline Indocern

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Re: Do you believe hell and heaven are real?
« Reply #147 on: April 06, 2017, 01:15:36 AM »
We can't look at the problem of evil as mainstream Pagans did: as an actual force, existing substantially, fighting against Good. This is what human intuition points at, and we get confused since it's evidently incompatible with Christianity. Plotinus, although a Pagan, had a more Christian-like vision into it: Evil is not a being, it's a non-being, the absence of Good. The nature of Evil opposed the nature of Good. Blessed Augustine went on a direction similar to that of Plotinus in On the Morals of the Manichaeans, although he would argue that evil does not even have a nature, it is the falling away from nature/essence/substance, that is, an accident. If you want to read more, take a look into chapters 6 and 8 here and tell me what you think. I believe the idea of evil as non-being relates perfectly to how the Bible links hell to eternal destruction.

Now entering into my own thoughts, taking hell as a conscious eternal state or not (I don't want to retake this debate that has being rewinded so much lately on the forum), we can see it as how the damned freely chose evil, thus freely choosing non-being, therefore departing from goodness, which is being. Since God is the only one which is good by himself (see chapter 6 of my link), departing from God means necessarily departing from goodness and even from existence. Being God good by himself, he saves people from non-being. When God transfigures the world, there shall be no more evil, because there will be no absence to be felt (to understand this part better, we might inquire into the nature of the presence of God here versus after the Final Judgement, I have no idea about it, but there must be writings of the Fathers about it).

I'm trying to word this in a way that doesn't sound very confusing, feel free to tell if I have failed, lol
I agree 100 percent with this.And it is a relief to understand this More now. As opposed to the calvinist and fundamentalist view, which seems to be that GOD actually inflicts evil on sinners by torturing them actively in a literal fire as some sort of vengeful and retributive justice. Sin to begin with is an onthological phenomena and a spiritual sickness, a "No" to the Self as God intended the Self to be. Not a juridical crime.



What is your opinion on these verses ?

*Revelation 14:9-11
 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “IF anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,  he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be Tormented with Fire and Brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their Torment ascends Forever and Ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Yes What about them?

What is your opinion on the verses ?

There is nothing to interpret on these verses.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 01:30:03 AM by Indocern »

Offline Jude1:3

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Re: Do you believe hell and heaven are real?
« Reply #148 on: April 06, 2017, 04:17:55 PM »
There is nothing to interpret on these verses.



I was just asking for a clarification of beebert's view on the verses.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Do you believe hell and heaven are real?
« Reply #149 on: April 06, 2017, 05:09:41 PM »
Quote
Fortunately for you, and the rest of us, God doesn't see all your behavior on earth as your fault.
So, no one's accountable for their actions? Do we have to take ownership for any of our actions or decisions, regardless of what the context and dynamic that we made them in? Are we really  all  just products of our environment and not accountable for our behavior?

Sounds to me, that "God" has the morals of some commie social worker who doesn't believe his creation has the integrity or capacity to make the right or ethical decisions at certain/crticial  points in our life so therefore not accountable for our actions. Great. :P

Quote
t. We're in a crucible of fire here, in this life, oppressed in every way the Accuser can invent, and this is meant to make a god of us,
Why, there it is again........"the devil made me do it!" I mean, it's not our fault we make stupid decisions, let's blame it on the 900lb gorilla in the room. Yet, we can't actually see that gorilla. Yep, sounds logical to me.

Quote
but it also often makes us devils. In the next life, if we pass the test, we'll be free to be ourselves, true children of God.
This sounds wacky to me. Is this "orthodox" doctrine?

Quote
. Fortunately for you, that person will be revealed to be not much like the person you seem today
Whoa, wait a minute. What do you mean "fortunately"? I'm just ducky with who I am today, besides, I'll deal with working out my own failings and transgressions with the Almighty myself without someone else's personal observations. You need to  work out your character and salvation before you go worrying about what kind of a person I might be in the afterlife.

Quote
Put conversely, if there weren't any devils, how could there be a Charles Martel?
If it makes you feel better to consider me a devil Porter, then I'll be more than happy to oblige you. At least now, you can say, you've met real live demon in cyber-space. ;)
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: Do you believe hell and heaven are real?
« Reply #150 on: April 08, 2017, 03:05:13 PM »


Quote
the person is being fooled by the demons to do this through pride and vainglory, actually this is how the demons mock that person, not realizing that he/she is made with honor, in the image of God and is compered to the mindless beast, even as we put chains and rings on our livestock.
You can replace the word "demons" with "friends" or whatever. But, it's definitely a flesh and blood human that's influencing and encouraging this nonsense.Again, I really don't like to put the blame on invisible spooks or entities, when the ones we have to blame are far too real and right within our midst. Again, it's behavior and personal accountablity,  not the knights in satan's service.


I don't know if I am right but I think the devil deceives us to think we can follow Christ commandments simply by our own intention but Christ thinks we should not listen to him but it is fair that he tempts us. Actually God wanted the only source of our evil to be from Satan so we won't be tempted anymore in heaven when he is destroyed. We don't have to listen to Satan so we are responsible for our own thoughts but Satan still has a part in it

But Paul say only by walking in the Spirit you can destroy the flesh
Though we are responsible to walk in the Spirit so we can't blame Satan yet we still fall in sin despite our best intentions if Christ grace does not protect us and He may not always or never protect us unless we are watching and praying

Actually some thoughts could be from us such as I will play video games instead of read my bible or do something productive God is okay with

Luke 22:21-38 Matthew Henry commentary sift as wheat peter
Vs. 21-38. How unbecoming is the worldly ambition of being the greatest, to the character of a follower of Jesus, who took upon him the form of a servant, and humbled himself to the death of the cross! In the way to eternal happiness, we must expect to be assaulted and sifted by Satan. If he cannot destroy, he will try to disgrace or distress us. Nothing more certainly forebodes a fall, in a professed follower of Christ, than self-confidence, with disregard to warnings, and contempt of danger. Unless we watch and pray always, we may be drawn in the course of the day into those sins which we were in the morning most resolved against. If believers were left to themselves, they would fall; but they are kept by the power of God, and the prayer of Christ. Our Lord gave notice of a very great change of circumstances now approaching. The disciples must not expect that their friends would be kind to them as they had been. Therefore, he that has a purse, let him take it, for he may need it. They must now expect that their enemies would be more fierce than they had been, and they would need weapons. At the time the apostles understood Christ to mean real weapons, but he spake only of the weapons of the spiritual warfare. The sword of the Spirit is the sword with which the disciples of Christ must furnish themselves.

Enjoyed reading this, ty.
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Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: Do you believe hell and heaven are real?
« Reply #151 on: April 08, 2017, 03:14:32 PM »
Jesus also mentioned fasting as well as praying to help us keep our hearts pure.
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Jesus Heals a Boy with a Demon

(Mark 9:14-29; Luke 9:37-42)

14As they approached the crowd, a man came up to Jesus,d knelt down in front of him, 15and said, “Sir,e have mercy on my son, because he is an epileptic and suffers terribly. Often he falls into fire and often into water. 16I brought him to your disciples, but they couldn’t heal him.”

17Jesus replied, “You unbelieving and perverted generation! How long must I be with you? How long must I put up with you? Bring him here to me!” 18Then Jesus rebuked the demon and it came out of him, and the boy was healed that very hour.

19Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and asked, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?”

20He told them, “Because of your lack of faith.f I tell all of youg with certainty, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you. 21But this kind does not come out except by prayer and fasting.”h
The Lord gathers his sheep, I fear I am a goat. Lord have mercy.

"A Christian is someone who follows and worships a perfectly good God who revealed his true face through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.“

Offline mikeforjesus

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« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 05:31:51 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline Indocern

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Re: Do you believe hell and heaven are real?
« Reply #153 on: April 13, 2017, 02:04:55 AM »
I support completely beebert.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 02:08:41 AM by Indocern »