Author Topic: New Book: The Departure of the Soul  (Read 1810 times)

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Offline jah777

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New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« on: March 10, 2017, 10:24:24 PM »
By St. Anthony's Monastery in Arizona.  Available in October but can pre-order now.  The website below has reviews and endorsements from Orthodox bishops across several jurisdictions.

http://www.thedepartureofthesoul.org

Offline Opus118

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2017, 01:48:04 AM »
By St. Anthony's Monastery in Arizona.  Available in October but can pre-order now.  The website below has reviews and endorsements from Orthodox bishops across several jurisdictions.

http://www.thedepartureofthesoul.org

Are you going to read this? I doubt I will.
"Mi tío es enfermo, pero la carretera es verde!" - old Chilean saying

Offline rakovsky

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2017, 04:43:14 AM »
They intentionally put a long sample for those who haven't bought the book, here:
http://www.thedepartureofthesoul.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/departure-of-the-soul.pdf
« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 04:43:50 AM by rakovsky »
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Offline Antonis

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2017, 10:08:49 AM »
I've been looking forward to this. I've got it pre-ordered.
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

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Letter of Barnabas 6.9

Offline Iconodule

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2017, 10:13:31 AM »
It sounds like an important and very interesting read. It'll be on my list (which means it could be years before I get to it).
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline jah777

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2017, 10:22:56 AM »
By St. Anthony's Monastery in Arizona.  Available in October but can pre-order now.  The website below has reviews and endorsements from Orthodox bishops across several jurisdictions.

http://www.thedepartureofthesoul.org

Are you going to read this? I doubt I will.

Yes, I have ordered it and will read it with great interest.  It is impressive to see the number of positive reviews from Orthodox hierarchs in America concerning a book written on a subject that became very controversial in America since the 1970s.  It will be particularly interesting to see how this book  discusses the controversy in America and the claims of Abp Lazar Puhalo and Fr. Michael Azkoul who have written the most in opposition to the toll-house teaching.  From the sample and the reviews, it appears that many of the claims made against this teaching are evaluated in a scholarly and sober manner in a way that we have not seen in books published on the subject to date. 

Offline Antonis

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2017, 10:29:21 AM »
I had noticed a discrepancy in the dates that the website said it would be released. In one location it said March-April, in another, October. Do you know which is accurate, jah777?
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

"The human being is earth that suffers."
Letter of Barnabas 6.9

Offline jah777

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2017, 11:17:52 AM »
I had noticed a discrepancy in the dates that the website said it would be released. In one location it said March-April, in another, October. Do you know which is accurate, jah777?

When I ordered it a few days ago the order confirmation said it is being printed now but won't be shipped until October.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2017, 01:31:52 PM »
By St. Anthony's Monastery in Arizona.  Available in October but can pre-order now.  The website below has reviews and endorsements from Orthodox bishops across several jurisdictions.

http://www.thedepartureofthesoul.org

Are you going to read this? I doubt I will.

More copies for us.
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Opus118

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2017, 02:32:56 PM »
By St. Anthony's Monastery in Arizona.  Available in October but can pre-order now.  The website below has reviews and endorsements from Orthodox bishops across several jurisdictions.

http://www.thedepartureofthesoul.org

Are you going to read this? I doubt I will.

More copies for us.

I just prefer being surprised.

"Mi tío es enfermo, pero la carretera es verde!" - old Chilean saying

Offline JoeS2

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2017, 03:15:53 PM »
By St. Anthony's Monastery in Arizona.  Available in October but can pre-order now.  The website below has reviews and endorsements from Orthodox bishops across several jurisdictions.

http://www.thedepartureofthesoul.org

Are you going to read this? I doubt I will.

More copies for us.

I just prefer being surprised.

Besides Lazarus, has anyone come back from the dead to confirm this????  8)

Offline J Michael

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2017, 03:44:43 PM »
By St. Anthony's Monastery in Arizona.  Available in October but can pre-order now.  The website below has reviews and endorsements from Orthodox bishops across several jurisdictions.

http://www.thedepartureofthesoul.org

Are you going to read this? I doubt I will.

More copies for us.

I just prefer being surprised.

Besides Lazarus, has anyone come back from the dead to confirm this????  8)

Confirm what?  That Opus118 will be surprised?  I get the feeling most of us will be, one way or another. :)


But regarding the book....looks really interesting, but I'll just have to wait til the paperback edition comes out.  Or....maybe I'll get a Kindle and a Kindle edition will be released! 8)
« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 03:46:46 PM by J Michael »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2017, 04:57:41 PM »
By St. Anthony's Monastery in Arizona.  Available in October but can pre-order now.  The website below has reviews and endorsements from Orthodox bishops across several jurisdictions.

http://www.thedepartureofthesoul.org

Are you going to read this? I doubt I will.

More copies for us.

I just prefer being surprised.

Not even a little curious?

Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Arachne

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2017, 05:11:39 PM »
By St. Anthony's Monastery in Arizona.  Available in October but can pre-order now.  The website below has reviews and endorsements from Orthodox bishops across several jurisdictions.

http://www.thedepartureofthesoul.org

Are you going to read this? I doubt I will.

More copies for us.

I just prefer being surprised.

Not even a little curious?



Do you get your own Lemarchand Configuration when preordering?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 05:11:57 PM by Arachne »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2017, 06:02:12 PM »
By St. Anthony's Monastery in Arizona.  Available in October but can pre-order now.  The website below has reviews and endorsements from Orthodox bishops across several jurisdictions.

http://www.thedepartureofthesoul.org

Are you going to read this? I doubt I will.

More copies for us.

I just prefer being surprised.

I doubt reading this book will make death a boring experience. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline FormerReformer

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2017, 06:30:48 PM »
By St. Anthony's Monastery in Arizona.  Available in October but can pre-order now.  The website below has reviews and endorsements from Orthodox bishops across several jurisdictions.

http://www.thedepartureofthesoul.org

Are you going to read this? I doubt I will.

More copies for us.

I just prefer being surprised.

I doubt reading this book will make death a boring experience.

I don't know - depending on the interest of the person reading the book, it could be quite possible they'd be bored to death.
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Offline jah777

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2017, 07:05:13 AM »
I had noticed a discrepancy in the dates that the website said it would be released. In one location it said March-April, in another, October. Do you know which is accurate, jah777?

When I ordered it a few days ago the order confirmation said it is being printed now but won't be shipped until October.

I was fine waiting for October if necessary, but someone else who placed the order followed up with the monastery and was told that October is a mistake and they will ship in April. :D

Offline Antonis

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2017, 11:00:22 AM »
I had noticed a discrepancy in the dates that the website said it would be released. In one location it said March-April, in another, October. Do you know which is accurate, jah777?

When I ordered it a few days ago the order confirmation said it is being printed now but won't be shipped until October.

I was fine waiting for October if necessary, but someone else who placed the order followed up with the monastery and was told that October is a mistake and they will ship in April. :D
Excellent! Thank you.
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

"The human being is earth that suffers."
Letter of Barnabas 6.9

Offline Iconodule

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2017, 11:57:56 AM »
By St. Anthony's Monastery in Arizona.  Available in October but can pre-order now.  The website below has reviews and endorsements from Orthodox bishops across several jurisdictions.

http://www.thedepartureofthesoul.org

Are you going to read this? I doubt I will.

More copies for us.

I just prefer being surprised.

Not even a little curious?



Do you get your own Lemarchand Configuration when preordering?

Well, it is published by cenobites after all.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Velsigne

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2017, 02:06:17 AM »
Are they saying they think the toll houses theory is true?   From the sample it kind of looks that way. 
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Offline Luke

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2017, 10:40:44 AM »
^I hope not.

Offline recent convert

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2017, 01:10:18 PM »
^I hope not.
The hierarchy endorsements seem to indicate so. SO it probably comes down to if you are a monk who who was lazy & self indulgent but did not "judge" anyone, you get a free pass. If a person took crap all their life & forgot once to forgive or confess so, ya might not make it.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 01:12:06 PM by recent convert »
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Offline jah777

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2017, 09:26:18 PM »
"It puts to rest a controversy that has disturbed the faithful for forty years."

Metropolitan Jonah on the book "The Departure of the Soul"

I just learned today that my copy has been shipped and will arrive next week. Glory to God!

Offline jah777

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2017, 07:41:02 AM »
Interesting to see Irish Hermit's post #99 in this thread referenced in the new book  "The Departure of the Soul"
 by St. Anthony's Monastery (www.thedapartureofthesoul.org).   

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,1792.msg489843.html?PHPSESSID=5d3db357f20ba4f01d50309886ba0a5c#msg489843

The citation is found in footnote 1006 of the section entitled "Addendum: The Ancillary Authors' Reiteration of the Errors."  In this section, after about 189 pages wherein 100 errors, mistranslations, falsifications,and misinterpretations in the anti-toll-house teachings of Abp. Lazar (Puhalo) and Fr. Michael Azkoul are carefully documented and refuted; another 34 pages then demonstrate how subsequent authors have used the mistranslations and errors of Abp. Lazar and Fr. Michael Azkoul in their own writings, furthering the misinformation regarding the toll-house teaching.

Regarding the book "Stations of Torment: The Legend of Theodora and the Aerial Toll-Houses" by Peter Yancey, the book states on pp.883-884:

Quote
[Regarding] the Life of St. Basil the New, the cornerstone hagiographical work on the subject, [Yancey] claims: "In the original version of the tale, it is Basil's 'merits,' not prayers that are contained in the bag.... This introduces into the legend the idea of supererogatory works."1001 Yancey then cites Hieromonk Ambrose Mooney, a frequent online critic of the teaching of the Church who writes under the pseudonym "Irish Hermit."  Regarding the Life of St. Basil the New, Mooney writes: "The original text does not say 'treasure of holy Basil's prayers.' It says, 'the treasury of Saint Basil's good works."1002

However, Yancey cites as his source for the Life an English translation of the second Slavonic redaction of the original Greek text.1003 In Gr. 249 (M), the closest surviving witness to the original tenth-century manuscript of the Greek Life, "merits" are never mentioned, nor "the treasury of Saint Basil's 'good works.'"  Contrary to Yancey's and Mooney's claims, moreover, St. Theophan the Recluse writes: "In the account of Theodora, what the angels took from the sack to free her from the tax-collectors was the prayers of her Elder."1004 Yancey's and Mooney's attempts to misinterpret the Orthodox doctrine of the spiritual value of the saints' prayers at the hour of death as an erroneous Latin teaching are misleading and false.

Mooney also copies verbatim Fr. Michael Azkoul's falsified excerpt from Mother Maria's translator's preface to St. Nikolai Velimirovic's Prologue of Ochrid.1005  Azkoul reworded this excerpt to mean the opposite of Mother Maria's statement, apparently in order to support his erroneous opinions against the teaching of the Orthodox Church.  Curiously, Mooney writes that he was one of the co-translators with Mother Maria on the project.  Therefore he should have been aware that his falsified excerpt was the opposite of her statement.1006

Footnotes, paraphrased

1001 Provides reference for Yancey quote as well as references demonstrating that the Roman Catholic teaching of supererogatory merits did not exist when Gregory wrote the Life.
1002 Yancey, Stations of Torment, op. cit., p.54
1003 Yancey sites as his source Eternal Mysteries beyond the Grave
1004 St. Theophan the Recluse, Collected Letters, Letter 159
1005 This falsification of Fr. Michael Azkoul was documented in a previous chapter, p.836
1006 See www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=1792.90, reply no.99, published on November 5, 2010.  Mooney also states that St. Nikolai Velimirovic included in the Prologue from Ochrid only "one small [toll-house] reference in the life of Saint Basil the New on 26th March..." (ibid., reply no. 19).  Again, having worked on translating the Prologue, he should have been aware of the five substantial references in the work, three of which are from St. Nikolai's own homilies which express his personal belief on the toll-houses.  See The Prologue of Ochrid, op. cit., vol. 1, p. 331; vol. 2, p. 360; vol. 4, pp. 81-82, 170, 388.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2017, 09:26:41 AM »
A bit frightening that OC.net posts are being cited in books now.

On a side note, I always thought "Irish Hermit" was a curious handle for an Australian who spent his waking hours arguing with strangers.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Opus118

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2017, 11:01:40 AM »
A bit frightening that OC.net posts are being cited in books now.

On a side note, I always thought "Irish Hermit" was a curious handle for an Australian who spent his waking hours arguing with strangers.

New Zealand

I think he was tasked to do Internet outreach in the early 2000s or something like that.
"Mi tío es enfermo, pero la carretera es verde!" - old Chilean saying

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2017, 11:28:38 AM »
A bit frightening that OC.net posts are being cited in books now.

This has made my day.  When I consider that what we do here occasionally has some positive influence in the real world, I ease up on my severe penances and feel humbled and thankful to have been one of the founders of OCNet. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline jah777

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2017, 08:45:57 PM »
A bit frightening that OC.net posts are being cited in books now.

This has made my day.  When I consider that what we do here occasionally has some positive influence in the real world, I ease up on my severe penances and feel humbled and thankful to have been one of the founders of OCNet.

Not to curb your excitement at all but I think the reference was unique on account of a few reasons:

1) Irish Hermit was quoted in the book by Yancey which the present book was addressing, attempting to get to the bottom of misinformation
2) Irish Hermit's real identity is well known
3) He is quite vocal in his rejection of the toll-house teaching
4) The fact that he helped translate the Prologue of Ochrid gives him an appearance of authority on the matter

As a nobody myself, I would not expect for an OCNet post of mine to be quoted in any book, among other reasons.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2017, 08:47:04 PM »
A bit frightening that OC.net posts are being cited in books now.

This has made my day.  When I consider that what we do here occasionally has some positive influence in the real world, I ease up on my severe penances and feel humbled and thankful to have been one of the founders of OCNet.

Not to curb your excitement at all but I think the reference was unique on account of a few reasons...

Noted, but I'll take what I can get.  :P
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline jah777

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2017, 10:20:20 PM »
A bit frightening that OC.net posts are being cited in books now.

This has made my day.  When I consider that what we do here occasionally has some positive influence in the real world, I ease up on my severe penances and feel humbled and thankful to have been one of the founders of OCNet.

Not to curb your excitement at all but I think the reference was unique on account of a few reasons...

Noted, but I'll take what I can get.  :P

I sure hope that is not all that you have benefited from in the
231 days, 19 hours and 57 minutes you have spent on this site up to this time  ;).  But seriously, this site has been host to quite a number of toll-house debates and I do hope this book helps to resolve issues that some found debatable.  Having engaged Irish Hermit in many such debates on this site, I am thankful that such a book as this has finally been produced.  If in any small way, the excessive time I spent in such debates helped demonstrate the need for such a book as this, I would consider my time participating in these debates well spent.

Offline IXOYE

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2017, 11:00:09 PM »
A bit frightening that OC.net posts are being cited in books now.

On a side note, I always thought "Irish Hermit" was a curious handle for an Australian who spent his waking hours arguing with strangers.

New Zealand

I think he was tasked to do Internet outreach in the early 2000s or something like that.

He does not appear to be on the internet these days.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2017, 11:23:43 PM »
One of us is bound to be famous, and our posts will be used as part of our biography :P
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2017, 01:11:33 PM »
Read a negative review on this. Anyone here read this yet, and if so any thoughts to share?

Offline minasoliman

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2017, 02:04:46 PM »
Read a negative review on this. Anyone here read this yet, and if so any thoughts to share?

You have a link?
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Antonis

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2017, 02:07:40 PM »
I own it and have read a significant portion of it (not really made to be read cover-to-cover) and have leafed through the rest. I thought it was excellent and definitely a resource to have in your library, even if you find yourself opposed to the concept of the aerial trials. It has a lot of original translations and really nice excerpts from the lives of the saints, East and West.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 02:08:16 PM by Antonis »
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

"The human being is earth that suffers."
Letter of Barnabas 6.9

Offline Antonis

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2017, 02:12:44 PM »
Read a negative review on this. Anyone here read this yet, and if so any thoughts to share?

You have a link?
There are a number of recent ones, given the fact that American Orthodox academia has quite a distaste for the toll houses:

https://publicorthodoxy.org/2017/10/17/toll-houses-review/

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2017/08/18/orthodox-theologies-of-the-afterlife-review-of-the-departure-of-the-soul/

I personally think they are rather poor reviews, somewhat shallow and interested in setting up and knocking down caricatures of toll house belief instead of addressing what the monks themselves offered. If they want to critique the belief, they could do better.
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

"The human being is earth that suffers."
Letter of Barnabas 6.9

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2017, 02:13:40 PM »
Read a negative review on this. Anyone here read this yet, and if so any thoughts to share?

You have a link?

AERIAL TOLL HOUSES, PROVISIONAL JUDGMENT, AND THE ORTHODOX FAITH

I have no idea what he means when he speaks of: "the copious academic and ecclesiastical endorsements (many of which, I understand, were obtained without full disclosure of exactly what was being endorsed)" ???

I own it and have read a significant portion of it (not really made to be read cover-to-cover) and have leafed through the rest. I thought it was excellent and definitely a resource to have in your library, even if you find yourself opposed to the concept of the aerial trials. It has a lot of original translations and really nice excerpts from the lives of the saints, East and West.

You had me at "resource to have in your library"...  :angel:

Offline Antonis

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2017, 02:19:38 PM »
Read a negative review on this. Anyone here read this yet, and if so any thoughts to share?

You have a link?

AERIAL TOLL HOUSES, PROVISIONAL JUDGMENT, AND THE ORTHODOX FAITH

I have no idea what he means when he speaks of: "the copious academic and ecclesiastical endorsements (many of which, I understand, were obtained without full disclosure of exactly what was being endorsed)" ???
Yea, I though this was a rather unprofessional and libelous accusation to include in a review.


I own it and have read a significant portion of it (not really made to be read cover-to-cover) and have leafed through the rest. I thought it was excellent and definitely a resource to have in your library, even if you find yourself opposed to the concept of the aerial trials. It has a lot of original translations and really nice excerpts from the lives of the saints, East and West.

You had me at "resource to have in your library"...  :angel:
Thought so!
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

"The human being is earth that suffers."
Letter of Barnabas 6.9

Offline minasoliman

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2017, 02:21:18 PM »
I own it and have read a significant portion of it (not really made to be read cover-to-cover) and have leafed through the rest. I thought it was excellent and definitely a resource to have in your library, even if you find yourself opposed to the concept of the aerial trials. It has a lot of original translations and really nice excerpts from the lives of the saints, East and West.

+1  I like this review...

Issues regarding the afterlife are usually last in my list to read.  I take a very simplistic approach.  Nevertheless, I will consider this in my list in the future to read.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Luke

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2017, 03:59:00 PM »
Nice review.

Offline CarolS

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2017, 04:39:51 PM »
Curious that there are endorsements/positive reviews by Hierarchs from a variety of Orthodox jurisdictions but none from the Greek Archdiocese of America?
Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations?

Offline Opus118

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2017, 07:04:04 PM »
Read a negative review on this. Anyone here read this yet, and if so any thoughts to share?

You have a link?

AERIAL TOLL HOUSES, PROVISIONAL JUDGMENT, AND THE ORTHODOX FAITH

I have no idea what he means when he speaks of: "the copious academic and ecclesiastical endorsements (many of which, I understand, were obtained without full disclosure of exactly what was being endorsed)" ???


I  thought the review was very good.  Two of the three sources he thought we should read are available online:
https://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/pdf/1991_daley_hope-of-the-early-church.pdf
https://staging.doaks.org/research/publications-1/dumbarton-oaks-papers/dop55/dp55ch06.pdf/at_download/file

It looks like the first instance of tolls was in the the gnostic First Apocalypse of James.

Personally, I think Toll House 23 is totally unfair.


"Mi tío es enfermo, pero la carretera es verde!" - old Chilean saying

Offline Antonis

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2017, 10:27:23 PM »
Read a negative review on this. Anyone here read this yet, and if so any thoughts to share?

You have a link?

AERIAL TOLL HOUSES, PROVISIONAL JUDGMENT, AND THE ORTHODOX FAITH

I have no idea what he means when he speaks of: "the copious academic and ecclesiastical endorsements (many of which, I understand, were obtained without full disclosure of exactly what was being endorsed)" ???


I  thought the review was very good.  Two of the three sources he thought we should read are available online:
https://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/pdf/1991_daley_hope-of-the-early-church.pdf
https://staging.doaks.org/research/publications-1/dumbarton-oaks-papers/dop55/dp55ch06.pdf/at_download/file

It looks like the first instance of tolls was in the the gnostic First Apocalypse of James.

Personally, I think Toll House 23 is totally unfair.
The choice to cite Nicholas Constas (now Fr. Maximos Simonopetrides) was an interesting one, given that he obviously disagrees with Shoemaker's claim that "Such a doctrine was almost unknown during the first millennium," when he offers a number of first millenium examples (the Departure of the Soul itself has quite a number, leading one to wonder how closely Shoemaker studied what he reviewed) and even states "the tradition of the tollgates was firmly established throughout the east long before the end of late antiquity."

I would encourage the interested reader to acquire it for himself and make his own judgement. Whether he agrees or disagrees with the conclusion of the monks, the sheer amount of sources provided in the compendium are worth the price for people interested in these things.

« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 10:29:58 PM by Antonis »
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

"The human being is earth that suffers."
Letter of Barnabas 6.9

Offline Opus118

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2017, 01:41:24 AM »
Read a negative review on this. Anyone here read this yet, and if so any thoughts to share?

You have a link?

AERIAL TOLL HOUSES, PROVISIONAL JUDGMENT, AND THE ORTHODOX FAITH

I have no idea what he means when he speaks of: "the copious academic and ecclesiastical endorsements (many of which, I understand, were obtained without full disclosure of exactly what was being endorsed)" ???


I  thought the review was very good.  Two of the three sources he thought we should read are available online:
https://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/pdf/1991_daley_hope-of-the-early-church.pdf
https://staging.doaks.org/research/publications-1/dumbarton-oaks-papers/dop55/dp55ch06.pdf/at_download/file

It looks like the first instance of tolls was in the the gnostic First Apocalypse of James.

Personally, I think Toll House 23 is totally unfair.
The choice to cite Nicholas Constas (now Fr. Maximos Simonopetrides) was an interesting one, given that he obviously disagrees with Shoemaker's claim that "Such a doctrine was almost unknown during the first millennium," when he offers a number of first millenium examples (the Departure of the Soul itself has quite a number, leading one to wonder how closely Shoemaker studied what he reviewed) and even states "the tradition of the tollgates was firmly established throughout the east long before the end of late antiquity."

I would encourage the interested reader to acquire it for himself and make his own judgement. Whether he agrees or disagrees with the conclusion of the monks, the sheer amount of sources provided in the compendium are worth the price for people interested in these things.

To give my perspective, Shoemaker is dealing with a conundrum which is quite common in science, the near impossibility of proving a negative. There can be no proof. Shoemaker's argument is the dearth of instances of toll houses in the first millennium texts, not their absence, as it was already present in gnostic texts of the 2nd century.

As I stated previously, I am not going to read this book. You can fill in the details of the missing first millennium texts but you should also be aware "that American Orthodox monastics have quite a taste for the toll houses" to use your own ad hominem from above. I am using this phrase to signify that you are impugning individuals without providing evidence. It was a judgement based on your own prejudices.
"Mi tío es enfermo, pero la carretera es verde!" - old Chilean saying

Offline t.ivanov

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Re: New Book: The Departure of the Soul
« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2017, 07:07:43 AM »
Faith is a mistery, i don't think they know exactly what happen with the soul.