Author Topic: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest  (Read 4764 times)

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Offline Agabus

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Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« on: March 03, 2017, 06:42:38 PM »
From here:

 
Quote
Former Anglican Bishop Samuel Seamans was ordained to the Orthodox priesthood last week by His Eminence Metropolitan Hilarion, First Hierarch (primate) of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia (ROCOR), for service in the Western Rite Communities. Ordinations by Metropolitan Hilarion last week included three priests, two deacons, and a number of readers.

The Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia is part of the Patriarchate of Moscow. More than 160 million of the 300 million members of the Orthodox Church are under the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate. Today there are Western Rite congregations and monastic communities in the Russian, Romanian, Serbian and Antiochian Churches.

Fr. Samuel Seamans had been a bishop in the Diocese of Mid-America, of the Anglican Church in North America (ACNA). He and his congregation, the parish of St. Thomas in Mountain Home, Arkansas had been received into the Orthodox Church together. Two deacons were ordained with Fr. Samuel for service at St. Thomas Orthodox Church. A third man is preparing for ordination to the diaconate. St. Thomas is a Western Rite Orthodox parish and is one of a rapidly growing number of Western Rite Orthodox congregations and monastic communities in America and the Western world.

And a little more bio, from Wikipedia:

Quote
He is also Rector of St. Thomas Orthodox Mission (Mountain Home, Arkansas) [3][4][5][6][7] and as well a licensed pilot and Emergency Medical Technician. He also serves as the Chief Deputy Coroner for Baxter County, Arkansas.

...

In November 2009, Seamans gained international notice by exposing an All Saints Day liturgy used by an Episcopal priest in Harrison, Arkansas.[11] The liturgy "Praises Mohammed, Vishnu, Buddha, Confucius..." with the celebrant stating: "All you Hindu saints; we praise you for holy are you...All you Buddhist saints, we praise you for holy are you..." even calling on "All you Incas of Peru, holy Mayans and Aztecs of Mexico, all you Native children of the sun and stars..."[11]

And a little more from the first post:
Quote
Today Anglicans make up the largest single group of converts to the Orthodox Church and are found in both the Eastern and Western rites ... A former Anglican (REC) priest, writes, “It is my estimate that there is no heterodox body in America from which more Orthodox clergy have come than the Anglican Communion. The number of Orthodox priests in this country that were previously Episcopal clergy is certainly in the hundreds”

So why is Orthodoxy the go-to for ex-Anglicans?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 06:45:36 PM by Agabus »
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2017, 07:26:15 PM »
Axios!  I really give him props on exposing that disgusting sham liturgy.

So why is Orthodoxy the go-to for ex-Anglicans?

Because it is Apostolic, liturgical, theologically conservative, and not Papal, maybe?  Is Orthodoxy really the go-to for ex-Anglicans though?  Do we know how many of them return to Rome instead?
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2017, 10:14:39 PM »
Axios!  I really give him props on exposing that disgusting sham liturgy.

So why is Orthodoxy the go-to for ex-Anglicans?

Because it is Apostolic, liturgical, theologically conservative, and not Papal, maybe?  Is Orthodoxy really the go-to for ex-Anglicans though?  Do we know how many of them return to Rome instead?
According to Wikipedia, there are about 96 parishes, 162 priests and 9 thousand Roman Catholic faithful in the Anglican use. The numbers are probably different, since I'm mixing data from different years here.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2017, 12:14:25 AM »
Axios!  I really give him props on exposing that disgusting sham liturgy.

So why is Orthodoxy the go-to for ex-Anglicans?

Because it is Apostolic, liturgical, theologically conservative, and not Papal, maybe?  Is Orthodoxy really the go-to for ex-Anglicans though?  Do we know how many of them return to Rome instead?
According to Wikipedia, there are about 96 parishes, 162 priests and 9 thousand Roman Catholic faithful in the Anglican use. The numbers are probably different, since I'm mixing data from different years here.

Two questions:

1. Do these numbers include all converts to Catholicism from Anglicanism, or merely those who are using some sort of Anglican rite (which is what I assume you intend by "Roman Catholic faithful in the Anglican use"?

2. How do these numbers compare with the numbers of former Anglicans who are presently a part of the Eastern Orthodox Church?
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2017, 12:43:11 AM »
1. Do these numbers include all converts to Catholicism from Anglicanism, or merely those who are using some sort of Anglican rite (which is what I assume you intend by "Roman Catholic faithful in the Anglican use"?
Just the latter, which I used as a RC equivalent for the WRO.

Quote
2. How do these numbers compare with the numbers of former Anglicans who are presently a part of the Eastern Orthodox Church?
No idea, but I wouldn't expect 96 parishes from an Anglican background worldwide. I can't find the numbers, but there are 23 parishes in the AWRV, for instance, former Anglican or not.

However, I'm with Agabus in his impression. It's a close hop for an Anglican to cross the Tiber as the RCC is so widely known, near (in terms of tradition) and open in Anglican lands. For an Anglican to cross the Bosphorus, however, it's really something else, more obscure and maybe more difficult.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2017, 12:52:43 AM »
1. Do these numbers include all converts to Catholicism from Anglicanism, or merely those who are using some sort of Anglican rite (which is what I assume you intend by "Roman Catholic faithful in the Anglican use"?
Just the latter, which I used as a RC equivalent for the WRO.

Quote
2. How do these numbers compare with the numbers of former Anglicans who are presently a part of the Eastern Orthodox Church?
No idea, but I wouldn't expect 96 parishes from an Anglican background worldwide. I can't find the numbers, but there are 23 parishes in the AWRV, for instance, former Anglican or not.

However, I'm with Agabus in his impression. It's a close hop for an Anglican to cross the Tiber as the RCC is so widely known, near (in terms of tradition) and open in Anglican lands. For an Anglican to cross the Bosphorus, however, it's really something else, more obscure and maybe more difficult.

If what you're saying is true, I don't know that it is fair to say that the Orthodox Church is the go-to church for Anglicans then.  It sounds like Rome might be.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline David Young

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2017, 09:41:14 AM »
My impression (though I have no statistics) is that most Anglicans who leave go to Rome, whilst a few come to us Evangelicals or to you Orthodox. Why those who believe in the episcopal system go to Rome rather than to Orthodoxy is probably known only to them. Maybe it is because the claims of Orthodoxy are little known in the West. To me it makes sense either to become Baptist (or similar) or to become Orthodox: can't see why they are drawn to Rome.
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2017, 09:52:34 AM »
Why those who believe in the episcopal system go to Rome rather than to Orthodoxy is probably known only to them. Maybe it is because the claims of Orthodoxy are little known in the West.

Perhaps.  Or perhaps it is because they come from Rome and they ultimately see Rome as their Mother Church.

To me it makes sense either to become Baptist (or similar) or to become Orthodox: can't see why they are drawn to Rome.

Respectfully, this doesn't make much sense to me.  If one believes in the priesthood, the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, etc., one's only real alternatives are Rome or some form of Orthodoxy.  If one doesn't, then yes, one might become some sort of Evangelical.  I don't understand why you would exclude Rome from your calculus for those in the former category.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Eruvande

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2017, 01:24:57 PM »
If I may, as a (formerly reformed Baptist) now Anglican hoping to make the transition to Orthodoxy, I eventually rejected Rome because I didn't buy into the grandiose claims of the Roman papacy. One of the reasons I liked Anglicanism after being a non-conformist was the sense of connection with history through the liturgy and to a certain extent the Episcopal line. Rome looked like a viable option to me because of it's earlier claims to those things. But then Orthodoxy crept up on me and politely coughed, pointing out that it also had a very good claim to antiquity and apostolic heritage, and didn't have the Roman quirks that made me so uncomfortable.
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2017, 01:32:35 PM »
If I may, as a (formerly reformed Baptist) now Anglican hoping to make the transition to Orthodoxy, I eventually rejected Rome because I didn't buy into the grandiose claims of the Roman papacy. One of the reasons I liked Anglicanism after being a non-conformist was the sense of connection with history through the liturgy and to a certain extent the Episcopal line. Rome looked like a viable option to me because of it's earlier claims to those things. But then Orthodoxy crept up on me and politely coughed, pointing out that it also had a very good claim to antiquity and apostolic heritage, and didn't have the Roman quirks that made me so uncomfortable.

Thanks for this!  May I ask what those Roman quirks were that turned you off?
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Eruvande

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2017, 01:45:53 PM »
The afore mentioned claims about Roman papal supreme authority and infallibility. The mental shenanigans required for the positions on divorce, annulment and remarriage. And some of the more bizarre Marian piety that essentially has the Virgin holding back her son from smiting us all with serious smiting because He is so very angry with us. I am sure there was more, but that is off the top of my head.
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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2017, 02:01:26 PM »
So why is Orthodoxy the go-to for ex-Anglicans?

Because it is Apostolic, liturgical, theologically conservative, and not Papal, maybe?  Is Orthodoxy really the go-to for ex-Anglicans though?  Do we know how many of them return to Rome instead?

In Britain, the odds are a lot better for Orthodoxy. It's a much smaller place than the US, and a disgruntled Anglican is almost as likely to find an Orthodox parish nearby as a Catholic one. We have less publicity, but the chances of making contact are a lot better than elsewhere.
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Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2017, 02:01:39 PM »
To me it makes sense either to become Baptist (or similar) or to become Orthodox: can't see why they are drawn to Rome.
Does it make sense to convert from one form of protestantism to another ? I think people who convert from anglicanism want access to authentic Eucharist so they choose the denomination which they consider to have true Holy Orders, so they may receive true sacraments.


Offline David Young

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2017, 02:18:53 PM »
To me it makes sense either to become Baptist (or similar) or to become Orthodox: can't see why they are drawn to Rome.

Respectfully, this doesn't make much sense to me.  If one believes in the priesthood, the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, etc., one's only real alternatives are Rome or some form of Orthodoxy.  If one doesn't, then yes, one might become some sort of Evangelical. 

That's what I am trying to say, and you have understood me correctly. Once you start with a priesthood, apostolic succession &c &c, then yes, you go to Rome or Orthodoxy. If you do not believe in these, you become Evangelical, and probably a group that practises believers' baptism rather than infant baptism.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2017, 02:29:33 PM »
...the Virgin holding back her son from smiting us all with serious smiting because He is so very angry with us.

 :)
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

Offline David Young

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2017, 02:33:36 PM »
Does it make sense to convert from one form of protestantism to another ?

Yes, it does. There are generally recognised to be four universal characteristics that identify Evangelicalism and distinguish it from other forms of Christianity: the sufficiency and authority of scripture for faith and practice; the centrality of the Cross for atonement; the need for personal conversion (i.e. to be born again); and an active attitude to Christian service (get out there to win others). Thus, it makes sense if a person ceases to believe, say, in infant baptism and comes to believe that only those who consciously profess Christ should be baptised; or if one shifts from believing (with Calvin) that Christ died only for the elect, to believing (with Arminius) that he died for all (or, of course, to make the transition the other way). That's just three examples which happen fairly frequently.

Secondly, here in Britain with perhaps only 2% of the population attending any church regularly, Evangelical people will look for their nearest evangelical church, be it Anglican, Baptist, independent, or whatever. If you move from one town to another, you are quite likely to move to another denomination (or to a church not affiliated to any denomination) in order to find evangelical teaching, fellowship and worship.

Thirdly, the other important thing to note is there is much reduced family or personal denominational loyalty than there was a hundred years ago. What is important is to be Evangelical. One can move from one denomination to another and still remain wholly loyal to the Evangelical faith (the quadrilateral I just outlined in the previous paragraph). If someone left Orthodoxy or Rome and became Evangelical (as some do, of course), it would be a much bigger change than a transition from say Methodist to Baptist.
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2017, 02:34:10 PM »
The afore mentioned claims about Roman papal supreme authority and infallibility. The mental shenanigans required for the positions on divorce, annulment and remarriage. And some of the more bizarre Marian piety that essentially has the Virgin holding back her son from smiting us all with serious smiting because He is so very angry with us. I am sure there was more, but that is off the top of my head.

Thank you.  I truly appreciate your contributions to this thread.  :)

So why is Orthodoxy the go-to for ex-Anglicans?

Because it is Apostolic, liturgical, theologically conservative, and not Papal, maybe?  Is Orthodoxy really the go-to for ex-Anglicans though?  Do we know how many of them return to Rome instead?

In Britain, the odds are a lot better for Orthodoxy. It's a much smaller place than the US, and a disgruntled Anglican is almost as likely to find an Orthodox parish nearby as a Catholic one. We have less publicity, but the chances of making contact are a lot better than elsewhere.

Interesting.  Thank you.

I'm sure it must be possible to find information on how many Anglicans apostatize to other jurisdictions every year, and which jurisdictions receive the bulk of them.  I'd really be curious to know if Orthodoxy is the go-to, or if it comes in second to Catholicism, or what.

To me it makes sense either to become Baptist (or similar) or to become Orthodox: can't see why they are drawn to Rome.

Respectfully, this doesn't make much sense to me.  If one believes in the priesthood, the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, etc., one's only real alternatives are Rome or some form of Orthodoxy.  If one doesn't, then yes, one might become some sort of Evangelical. 

That's what I am trying to say, and you have understood me correctly. Once you start with a priesthood, apostolic succession &c &c, then yes, you go to Rome or Orthodoxy. If you do not believe in these, you become Evangelical, and probably a group that practises believers' baptism rather than infant baptism.

Got it.  Thank you.  :)
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Agabus

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2017, 02:36:36 PM »
I'll admit that my last question was sort of facetious. I know far more former 'Piskies who went to Rome than to us.

I will say that I think Orthodoxy is the go-to for a certain type of Anglican.

I think probably the most interesting thing is that the bizarro inclusive liturgy happened in Harrison. Little Rock, Hot Springs or Fayetteville, sure, but not Harrison.
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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2017, 03:00:41 PM »
I did not see this in the original blog post but how long after he and his congregation were received into the church before he was ordained to the priesthood?  I would hope it was not too rapid.  We've all seen heard about what can happen when men are rushed to ordination before they have a chance to simply be Orthodox.

On another note, I think far more Anglicans go into the RC than the EO, even WR EO.  And for those Anglicans that do go EO, I think far more go into the Eastern Rite than the Western.
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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2017, 03:20:50 PM »
To me it makes sense either to become Baptist (or similar) or to become Orthodox: can't see why they are drawn to Rome.

Respectfully, this doesn't make much sense to me.  If one believes in the priesthood, the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, etc., one's only real alternatives are Rome or some form of Orthodoxy.  If one doesn't, then yes, one might become some sort of Evangelical. 

That's what I am trying to say, and you have understood me correctly. Once you start with a priesthood, apostolic succession &c &c, then yes, you go to Rome or Orthodoxy. If you do not believe in these, you become Evangelical, and probably a group that practises believers' baptism rather than infant baptism.

In other words, if you don't believe in what Christians for 1500 years believed, what every early Christian believed, the Church Fathers believed, and what the canonizers and preservers of the Bible believed. How is that any different than Islam, the Enlightenment and Postmodernism again?
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2017, 03:24:06 PM »
...the Virgin holding back her son from smiting us all with serious smiting because He is so very angry with us.

 :)
"The Son of Man came not to save souls, but to destroy-but His mother won't let Him." Luke 9:56 Vatican Version.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2017, 04:20:04 PM »
...the Virgin holding back her son from smiting us all with serious smiting because He is so very angry with us.

 :)
"The Son of Man came not to save souls, but to destroy-but His mother won't let Him." Luke 9:56 Vatican Version.
 ::)

Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

Offline Agabus

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2017, 11:18:21 PM »
I did not see this in the original blog post but how long after he and his congregation were received into the church before he was ordained to the priesthood?  I would hope it was not too rapid.  We've all seen heard about what can happen when men are rushed to ordination before they have a chance to simply be Orthodox.


This Wikipedia page says they voted to pursue the mass conversion in November 2015.
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Offline David Young

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2017, 04:42:07 PM »
...you don't believe in what Christians for 1500 years believed, what every early Christian believed, the Church Fathers believed, and what the canonizers and preservers of the Bible believed....

I kinda think there is some irony lurking in your choice of wording. Much of the difference between us goes back to what cannot be proved either way but must be accepted by faith (again, either way): are the things that you believe and we do not things you added, or things we lost? This isn't the place to discuss this, as there are prolonged threads exploring this question. If you added them, we are right; if we cut them out, you are right.

There is of course a related belief which you have and we do not: the notion of "the only true church". As I wrote in an earlier post, we Evangelicals will probably search for a church which preaches the heart or core teachings of our faith in the area we live, without making its denominational affiliation (or lack of one) a prime criterion, if a criterion at all. You, on the other hand, will probably search for the nearest Orthodox church, and if there is none, at least for something claiming apostolic succession.

There are other questions which are germane to seeking the children of God. Does God bless you and us, or only you, or only us? Your reference to postmodernism might make you think this question belongs in such a context, but whereas I reject Derrida's ideas, I feel we can learn something from Lyotard's insights.

And finally, are the teachings both you and we hold sufficient to include us all (if we are sincere) in the company of God's people, or do we lack, or have you added, so much that one of us is excluded?
"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2017, 04:45:13 PM »
...the Virgin holding back her son from smiting us all with serious smiting because He is so very angry with us.

 :)
"The Son of Man came not to save souls, but to destroy-but His mother won't let Him." Luke 9:56 Vatican Version.
 ::)



The whole Paramythea legend was created by Jesuit time-travelers to 9th century Greece.
Quote
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2017, 05:12:15 PM »
...the Virgin holding back her son from smiting us all with serious smiting because He is so very angry with us.

 :)
"The Son of Man came not to save souls, but to destroy-but His mother won't let Him." Luke 9:56 Vatican Version.
 ::)



The whole Paramythea legend was created by Jesuit time-travelers to 9th century Greece.
the pirates were Jesuits?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2017, 05:15:25 PM »
1. Do these numbers include all converts to Catholicism from Anglicanism, or merely those who are using some sort of Anglican rite (which is what I assume you intend by "Roman Catholic faithful in the Anglican use"?
Just the latter, which I used as a RC equivalent for the WRO.

Quote
2. How do these numbers compare with the numbers of former Anglicans who are presently a part of the Eastern Orthodox Church?
No idea, but I wouldn't expect 96 parishes from an Anglican background worldwide. I can't find the numbers, but there are 23 parishes in the AWRV, for instance, former Anglican or not.

However, I'm with Agabus in his impression. It's a close hop for an Anglican to cross the Tiber as the RCC is so widely known, near (in terms of tradition) and open in Anglican lands. For an Anglican to cross the Bosphorus, however, it's really something else, more obscure and maybe more difficult.

Well, you have a lot more former Anglican priests and congregations than you will find in the Western Rites, Antioch and Rocor combined. Of the priests I've had, almost all who weren't "cradle" spent some time in the Anglican priesthood, and I've never regularly attended a WR parish. The one or two exceptions were younger priests, and even then, they spent some time as Anglican laity before becoming Orthodox.
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2017, 05:18:29 PM »
...you don't believe in what Christians for 1500 years believed, what every early Christian believed, the Church Fathers believed, and what the canonizers and preservers of the Bible believed....

I kinda think there is some irony lurking in your choice of wording. Much of the difference between us goes back to what cannot be proved either way but must be accepted by faith (again, either way): are the things that you believe and we do not things you added, or things we lost? This isn't the place to discuss this, as there are prolonged threads exploring this question. If you added them, we are right; if we cut them out, you are right.

There is of course a related belief which you have and we do not: the notion of "the only true church". As I wrote in an earlier post, we Evangelicals will probably search for a church which preaches the heart or core teachings of our faith in the area we live, without making its denominational affiliation (or lack of one) a prime criterion, if a criterion at all. You, on the other hand, will probably search for the nearest Orthodox church, and if there is none, at least for something claiming apostolic succession.

There are other questions which are germane to seeking the children of God. Does God bless you and us, or only you, or only us? Your reference to postmodernism might make you think this question belongs in such a context, but whereas I reject Derrida's ideas, I feel we can learn something from Lyotard's insights.

And finally, are the teachings both you and we hold sufficient to include us all (if we are sincere) in the company of God's people, or do we lack, or have you added, so much that one of us is excluded?
You speak as if the heart or core teachings of the Faith the Apostles preached excluded apostolic succession. It does not. And that difference between us can easily be proved, as you depend on us for the Bible you claim-if we had lost it, you would have no where to add it from.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline David Young

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2017, 05:38:56 PM »
You speak as if the heart or core teachings of the Faith the Apostles preached excluded apostolic succession. It does not. And that difference between us can easily be proved,

Go on then!

Quote
as you depend on us for the Bible you claim-if we had lost it, you would have no where to add it from.

Who do you mean by "us"? (But I have a sneaking feeling we've been down this pathway before.)
"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2017, 11:59:04 PM »
My impression (though I have no statistics) is that most Anglicans who leave go to Rome, whilst a few come to us Evangelicals or to you Orthodox. Why those who believe in the episcopal system go to Rome rather than to Orthodoxy is probably known only to them. Maybe it is because the claims of Orthodoxy are little known in the West. To me it makes sense either to become Baptist (or similar) or to become Orthodox: can't see why they are drawn to Rome.
Once they learn the Anglican Church made some major mischaracterizations of the R.Catholics, the AngloCatholics go all the way, figuring everything else is wrong too what they were told about Catholicism.
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2017, 12:03:02 AM »
Axios!  I really give him props on exposing that disgusting sham liturgy.



Because it is Apostolic, liturgical, theologically conservative, and not Papal, maybe?  Is Orthodoxy really the go-to for ex-Anglicans though?  Do we know how many of them return to Rome instead?
According to Wikipedia, there are about 96 parishes, 162 priests and 9 thousand Roman Catholic faithful in the Anglican use. The numbers are probably different, since I'm mixing data from different years here.

The thing is, with the Anglo Catholics, there is also the drive to reversion.
It's like with Ukraine and Poland. Poland forced Orthodox to become under Rome. Then in America, with religious freedom, many reverted to Orthodoxy.

In England, the Crown brutally forced the Catholics to convert to Anglicanism. Over the centuries there have been movements back to Catholicism as the laws loosened.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 12:03:25 AM by rakovsky »
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2017, 12:27:11 AM »
Much of the difference between us goes back to what cannot be proved either way but must be accepted by faith (again, either way): are the things that you believe and we do not things you added, or things we lost?
David,
My impression is that one of the biggest differences are things that were intentionally "lost" at some point by the "Reformed" branch of Protestantism. They reread early Christian history to say that the early Christians didn't do these things or that they aren't Biblical.

Example: Philippians: 1:1 says:
Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops(Episkopos) and deacons:


Titus 1 says:
Quote
5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

7 For a bishop [Episkopos] must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;

9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

There was an actual office of Episkopos in the Biblical apostolic Church. That is what was practiced when the New Testament was written and finalized.

Non-Lutheran "Reformed" Protestants do not like that. Maybe that is because this office suggests they should to adhere to centuries of tradition, organizational and theological unity and obedience too much for their tastes, instead of every Reformed being his own independent theologian by his own private interpretation of the Bible.

I can give many examples of "lost" early Christian teachings that the Reformed didn't like and then based on their dislikes labeled as "invented" by the big bad Catholic Church.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 12:30:31 AM by rakovsky »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2017, 12:47:30 AM »
You speak as if the heart or core teachings of the Faith the Apostles preached excluded apostolic succession. It does not. And that difference between us can easily be proved,

Go on then!
I just did. There is no such thing, for instance, as an ancient Protestant manuscript of the Bible.
Quote
as you depend on us for the Bible you claim-if we had lost it, you would have no where to add it from.

Who do you mean by "us"? (But I have a sneaking feeling we've been down this pathway before.)
The Orthodox, of course. The Nestorians and the Vatican make a similar claim, and as far as Protestants are concerned, they can sustain it.
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2017, 12:52:26 AM »
Axios!  I really give him props on exposing that disgusting sham liturgy.



Because it is Apostolic, liturgical, theologically conservative, and not Papal, maybe?  Is Orthodoxy really the go-to for ex-Anglicans though?  Do we know how many of them return to Rome instead?
According to Wikipedia, there are about 96 parishes, 162 priests and 9 thousand Roman Catholic faithful in the Anglican use. The numbers are probably different, since I'm mixing data from different years here.

The thing is, with the Anglo Catholics, there is also the drive to reversion.
It's like with Ukraine and Poland. Poland forced Orthodox to become under Rome. Then in America, with religious freedom, many reverted to Orthodoxy.

In England, the Crown brutally forced the Catholics to convert to Anglicanism. Over the centuries there have been movements back to Catholicism as the laws loosened.

Why are you saying this in response to my quote here?  I already understand the reasons Anglicans revert to Catholicism.  I was simply asking about numbers relative to conversions to Orthodoxy.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2017, 01:08:05 AM »
Axios!  I really give him props on exposing that disgusting sham liturgy.



Because it is Apostolic, liturgical, theologically conservative, and not Papal, maybe?  Is Orthodoxy really the go-to for ex-Anglicans though?  Do we know how many of them return to Rome instead?
According to Wikipedia, there are about 96 parishes, 162 priests and 9 thousand Roman Catholic faithful in the Anglican use. The numbers are probably different, since I'm mixing data from different years here.

The thing is, with the Anglo Catholics, there is also the drive to reversion.
It's like with Ukraine and Poland. Poland forced Orthodox to become under Rome. Then in America, with religious freedom, many reverted to Orthodoxy.

In England, the Crown brutally forced the Catholics to convert to Anglicanism. Over the centuries there have been movements back to Catholicism as the laws loosened.

Why are you saying this in response to my quote here?  I already understand the reasons Anglicans revert to Catholicism.  I was simply asking about numbers relative to conversions to Orthodoxy.
I understand.
Statistically the most powerful amount of conversion among English on regaining their freedom would be strongest among R.C.s because they were forced out of Catholicism. Reconversion out of forced church can be very strong.

It's not like Orthodoxy is in any way deficient. Orthodoxy can find converts in many countries from Australia to Sweden, and we've met some on the forum. But the impulse back to Catholicism on regaining the freedom is going to be very powerful due to social, historical, and heritage factors in the UK. Ireland is a similar example. Once Catholicism became legal there, most of the country reverted. It's not that their theologians necessarily hadn't heard of Orthodoxy.
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Offline David Young

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2017, 04:26:21 AM »
There was an actual office of Episkopos in the Biblical apostolic Church. That is what was practiced when the New Testament was written and finalized.

I don't think anyone denies that the word exists in the NT, nor that men (not women) filled that role. But we see it as each local church (as in your quotation) having its own bishops and deacons. The bishops are sometimes called elders, or presbyters; we often call them pastors (another biblical word, of course). The difference between us lies in your understanding of the role they fulfilled.

Quote
Protestants do not like that.... I can give many examples of "lost" early Christian teachings that the Reformed didn't like and then based on their dislikes labeled as "invented"

Whereas I disagree with you on the particular matter of bishops, as a general principle you are saying exactly what I am saying about different theologians in the book I am currently writing: people started by disliking certain doctrines (in this case the eternal punishment of the impenitent, and the penal substitutionary atonement at Calvary) and based their newly invented doctrines (often called "Liberal theology") on their dislikes. But that is another matter: I merely say it to show that I follow your argument very clearly.
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Offline David Young

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2017, 04:40:00 AM »
There is no such thing, for instance, as an ancient Protestant manuscript of the Bible.

Quite so. We are not nescient of how the divine inspiration of certain writings was recognised by the Church. But I don't think that the fact that the Holy Spirit guided the as yet largely undivided church in recognising the God-given scriptures in the period up to the late 4th century is the same matter as validating the teachings of one present-day denomination against another.

You are, I think, mixing two questions. I know why, or how: you are arguing from the historical, organic continuity of your denomination, and contrasting that with Christian groupings which arose later (for whatever reason) without direct contact with that lineage.

But we could go round and round in circles (methinks we already are!), for on our side we do not rely on the unbroken continuity of organisation: you do. There is a great gulf fixed - not (I hope) between us and you in Christ, but between the bases of your concept of the true church and our concept of the true church. This is why I wrote earlier on this thread that it makes sense to be Orthodox or Baptist (or Pentecostal, or Brethren, &c), but it doesn't make much sense to be anything else. Which brings us back to the original point: why do 'priests' convert from Anglicanism to Rome more often than to Orthodoxy [or to Evangelicalism]?
"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2017, 05:09:09 AM »
There was an actual office of Episkopos in the Biblical apostolic Church. That is what was practiced when the New Testament was written and finalized.

I don't think anyone denies that the word exists in the NT, nor that men (not women) filled that role. But we see it as each local church (as in your quotation) having its own bishops and deacons. The bishops are sometimes called elders, or presbyters; we often call them pastors (another biblical word, of course). The difference between us lies in your understanding of the role they fulfilled.
I understand you are saying that it's confusing from the Bible what the difference was between the office of bishop and other offices.

Fortunately, someone who wants to study the issue is not limited to a few mentions from the Bible. We have many writings from the first two generations of Christians (c.30-c.160 AD) to understand how the apostles and the apostolic church operated.
In the apostles' model, sure there were local pastors, but they were also subject to regional bishops, eg. the apostles and those the apostles appointed. You could have alot of house churches with their own pastors in Rome, but the regional church there was under Peter, Clement, and Linus.

The Lutheran and Anglican churches follow that model, but the Reformed didn't like it, so they set up their own way, even though they had been doing it for centuries.

In 1st Clement, Clement explained to the Corinthians that they needed to get along with the people whom the apostles appointed in charge of Corinth, because the apostles appointed them. It wasn't a matter of each person doing what they wanted and making their own sect. Instead, the apostles and those put in place by them wanted this model of succession.

We saw it with the Council of Jerusalem. The pharisee Christians (kind of like a strict version of today's Messianic Christians) wanted to make everyone observe Torah to join the Church. But the apostles said No. If we were going by the modern low-Reformed model, the Apostles' "No" wouldn't be decisive, the Christian pharisees would just go and make their own church.

Quote
Quote
Protestants do not like that.... I can give many examples of "lost" early Christian teachings that the Reformed didn't like and then based on their dislikes labeled as "invented"

Whereas I disagree with you on the particular matter of bishops, as a general principle you are saying exactly what I am saying about different theologians in the book I am currently writing: people started by disliking certain doctrines (in this case the eternal punishment of the impenitent, and the penal substitutionary atonement at Calvary) and based their newly invented doctrines (often called "Liberal theology") on their dislikes. But that is another matter: I merely say it to show that I follow your argument very clearly.
The bishop issue that was the only change, the overall argument I am making would be far more arguable.
I understand your objection to liberal theology, but in truth Reformed theology is actually a middle step between them.

In the apostles' time there was a "gift" of casting out demons that was supposedly passed on to faithful Christians. This "gift" continued in the church and certain prayers were made, some people specialized in it.
Then in the modern Age of Discovery, Calvin said that this stuff is bunk, Who ever heard these Catholic exorcists provide any specimens (proof) of their work?, he asked rhetorically. He was basically using a modern skepticist debunking approach against longstanding Christian traditions.
A century later, a leading Calvinist (J. Mede, IIRC) writes that in the Bible, people with demons were just mentally insane, that's all.
This is the liberal theology's end point- casting out demons is just "superstition", whether it's in the Bible or whether the Catholics do it.

According to the Reformed, "liberal theology" is the bogeyman.
In truth, "Reformed" Protestantism is itself 16th c. liberal revisionist theology.


What happened in many cases was that the Catholic church was keeping many early Christian traditions. Then the Reformed stopped believing that those traditions were true. They thought it was bunk superstition and they wanted to do their own thing, not listen to "bishops" tell them that "the office of exorcist" is for real. So the way the Reformed justified their new skeptic-based teachings was by claiming that the Catholics made this stuff up. Reformed don't have set exorcism words or practices. They rarely get involved in that stuff.

"Liberal theology" is just the next natural step. Once you realize that exorcisms are bunk and bishops are nobody special, then when you read about exorcisms in the Bible and the church appointing bishops, you realize that the Bible exorcisms are fake too and you don't have any need to care about what the bishops told us in the Bible either. So maybe Paul wrote something, but well, that's "just Paul". He's just another "pastor". He never was a disciple of Jesus, and why should you even listen to the apostles? Maybe the gnostics were right. Or maybe the disciples just made the whole "Jesus story" up..... That is where some skeptics like R. Carrier are going these days.

If you want to know what the 1st-2nd Christian community practiced and taught, you can learn the Orthodox Church teachings. Study the church fathers and bishops from that time- Clement, Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Papias, Polycarp, Clement Alexandrine, etc.

If you want to just use your own personal beliefs on what things were "really" like in Jesus' time, then you are going down some road of liberal theology.
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2017, 10:40:42 AM »
I don't think anyone denies that the word exists in the NT, nor that men (not women) filled that role. But we see it as each local church (as in your quotation) having its own bishops and deacons. The bishops are sometimes called elders, or presbyters; we often call them pastors (another biblical word, of course). The difference between us lies in your understanding of the role they fulfilled.

In the Reformed Protestant scheme, "bishop"/episkopos in the Bible is, like you said, just seen as some word meaning the same thing as local pastor. The office of bishop doesn't exist in the Reformed scheme. They don't like that model and so they re-read the Bible to say that it's just a synonym. When we actually check the real tradition about the 1st century Biblical apostolic church, we see:

  • The bishops of Antioch after Peter were Evodius (d.66 AD) and Ignatius(lived 35-108). Not much seems written of Evodius. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evodius

    Rome's popes after Peter were Linus (d.76 AD), Anacletus/Cletus (d.92), Clement (d.99), Evaristus/Aristus (d. 107)
    Clement was author of 1 Clement. Not much seems written of the authors. (See eg. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Linus)

    Alexandria's Patriarchs were: Mark the Evangelist (d.68), Ananius (d.83), Avilius (d.95), Kedron (d. 106)

    Jerusalem's Patriarch after James' death in c.62-70 AD was Simeon I (.d 107 or 117). (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_of_Jerusalem)
Now here's the thing. Those were some of the largest Christian communities in the first two centuries, with thousands of members. James in 62-70 AD and then Simeon were not just two local pastors running a single house church in Judea with 1000 people. They were responsible for the house churches in that area. They were the episkopos /bishops , having a separate function from just a local pastor. What other people are named as the episkopoi of Jerusalem in the 1st century AD, David?

In the 1st c. context, modern Reformed Protestants are like the breakaway sects like Cerinthos, Simon Magus, and others in terms of Ecclesiology. They just decide what Jesus' own teachings were, make their own writings exegeting Christianity, and don't worry about listening to some regional "bishops" as authority.

If Reformed Protestants showed up in the 1st-2nd c. and heard the Apostle John's students or Bp. Ignatius telling them that the bread really did have Jesus' body in it, they would go and make their own sect that rejects this teaching. And guess what, that's what we read in Ignatius did happen. He said that there were people who rejected the Eucharist and wouldn't go to communion because they didn't believe it was the same flesh that suffered and rose:

Quote
"Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us.... They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead."

"Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D.

If you time travel the Reformed Protestants into the 1st century Biblical church, what would happen is what Bp. Ignatius said happened in real life.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 10:43:07 AM by rakovsky »
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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #39 on: March 06, 2017, 01:22:21 PM »
Axios!  I really give him props on exposing that disgusting sham liturgy.



Because it is Apostolic, liturgical, theologically conservative, and not Papal, maybe?  Is Orthodoxy really the go-to for ex-Anglicans though?  Do we know how many of them return to Rome instead?
According to Wikipedia, there are about 96 parishes, 162 priests and 9 thousand Roman Catholic faithful in the Anglican use. The numbers are probably different, since I'm mixing data from different years here.

The thing is, with the Anglo Catholics, there is also the drive to reversion.
It's like with Ukraine and Poland. Poland forced Orthodox to become under Rome. Then in America, with religious freedom, many reverted to Orthodoxy.

In England, the Crown brutally forced the Catholics to convert to Anglicanism. Over the centuries there have been movements back to Catholicism as the laws loosened.

Why are you saying this in response to my quote here?  I already understand the reasons Anglicans revert to Catholicism.  I was simply asking about numbers relative to conversions to Orthodoxy.
I understand.
Statistically the most powerful amount of conversion among English on regaining their freedom would be strongest among R.C.s because they were forced out of Catholicism. Reconversion out of forced church can be very strong.

It's not like Orthodoxy is in any way deficient. Orthodoxy can find converts in many countries from Australia to Sweden, and we've met some on the forum. But the impulse back to Catholicism on regaining the freedom is going to be very powerful due to social, historical, and heritage factors in the UK. Ireland is a similar example. Once Catholicism became legal there, most of the country reverted. It's not that their theologians necessarily hadn't heard of Orthodoxy.

Do you have any numbers to support these contentions?  They make sense to me, but I would like to see some statistical data.  Thank you.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #40 on: March 06, 2017, 02:06:37 PM »
Do you have any numbers to support these contentions?  They make sense to me, but I would like to see some statistical data.  Thank you.
The English Church was Catholic in the early 16th c.
Catholicism was banned in Britain about that time - the Catholic bishops were expelled or forced to join the Church of England.
The discriminatory laws were only removed in the 19th c. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_emancipation)
The Catholic bishops were only allowed back in the mid 19th c.
1 in 12 British citizens is Catholic today, with about a 1 to 6 ratio compared to the Church of England.

Quote
The Church of England says about 26 million people have been baptised, the Catholic Church claims just over four million members in England and Wales - and another 695,000 in Scotland. Out of a total population of about 60 million, that means about one in 12 people in Great Britain is Catholic.Sep 15, 2010
How many Catholics are there in Britain? - BBC News
www.bbc.com/news/11297461

In order to see the reversion factor, you can trace the history of reversion attempts like Recusancy. There was a major movement of English citizens not to attend the Anglican Church, despite legal demands that they do so. This is one of the signs of ongoing resistance to the imposition of the Anglican Protestant Church.

Orthodox Christians in England have a much lower number than Catholics. It's not that Orthodoxy is bad, but we are dealing with a situation where the whole country was officially Catholic in one century and then Catholicism became banned the next. There is going to be major longstanding resistance to that kind of switch.
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #41 on: March 06, 2017, 03:23:07 PM »
@rakovsky vs @David Young
I think it comes down to this, whether the people were voting/selecting elders to guide them or if there is a heavenly chrism/divine energy that is sealed upon the person that is being ordained.

Sacraments have two sides, visible and invisible, but in rare occasions God allows us to glimpse upon the invisible side with our senses, here is something i spotted recently person getting tonsured


If we look at St Ignatius who knew the apostles personally and was appointed by them as Bishop of Antioch and how he understands it its very clear:

See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.
                                                                                                                                                                                  - St Ignatius


In one of His parables, Christ tells us something very important, that is to build our house upon the "rocky place" (The Apostolic Church) and not upon the sand (legion of lawless sects and self-authorized cults) Matthew 7:15-27

Consider this in light of what Christ tells to the apostles >>> Luke 10-16, John 13:20 and Mathew 10:40 who in turn ordained successors.

And finally, He promises us to be always with us Matthew 28:20, but the world didn't end after the twelve, clearly He meant He will be also with their successors, till the end of the world.

Here is a another miraculous example, this time of a person receiving true baptism in THE Church

And lets not forget what the Lord tells us in the gospel - John 6:56, not long ago i came upon another interesting photo that was done at the right moment. Obviously, without Holy Orders, there can be no priesthood, no altar and no Church, without these the bread remains bread and the wine remains wine.

So how is a person supposed to receive Christ exactly ? telepathically By faith alone ? but which faith ? There are so many protestant denomination and they all believe diverse things, about salvation, who Christ is and what He commanded, so which of these receive Christ telepathically (without sacraments) ? Maybe the muslims who believe Christ was only a man and his disciples were the first muslims ? Maybe the JW who believe Christ was the archangel michael and the devil is his brother ? or the "pentacostals" who insist you have to gibber a demonic non-sense in order to prove that you are "saved" ? Or Perhaps "saved" means faith+repentance but repentance towards what? Do you know for example secular muslims "repent", embrace islam then they stop drink alchohol, start giving alms and pray 5 times day ? Then they blaspheme Christ, cut someone's throat or blow them selves up but this is another story....


« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 03:41:43 PM by Vanhyo »

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2017, 03:23:41 PM »
Do you have any numbers to support these contentions?  They make sense to me, but I would like to see some statistical data.  Thank you.
The English Church was Catholic in the early 16th c.
Catholicism was banned in Britain about that time - the Catholic bishops were expelled or forced to join the Church of England.
The discriminatory laws were only removed in the 19th c. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_emancipation)
The Catholic bishops were only allowed back in the mid 19th c.
1 in 12 British citizens is Catholic today, with about a 1 to 6 ratio compared to the Church of England.

Quote
The Church of England says about 26 million people have been baptised, the Catholic Church claims just over four million members in England and Wales - and another 695,000 in Scotland. Out of a total population of about 60 million, that means about one in 12 people in Great Britain is Catholic.Sep 15, 2010
How many Catholics are there in Britain? - BBC News
www.bbc.com/news/11297461

In order to see the reversion factor, you can trace the history of reversion attempts like Recusancy. There was a major movement of English citizens not to attend the Anglican Church, despite legal demands that they do so. This is one of the signs of ongoing resistance to the imposition of the Anglican Protestant Church.

Orthodox Christians in England have a much lower number than Catholics. It's not that Orthodoxy is bad, but we are dealing with a situation where the whole country was officially Catholic in one century and then Catholicism became banned the next. There is going to be major longstanding resistance to that kind of switch.

This isn't at all what I was asking about.  How many converts does the Eastern Orthodox Church receive a year from Anglicanism?  How many does the Roman Catholic Church receive?
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2017, 03:41:46 PM »
Here is a another miraculous example, this time of a person receiving true baptism in THE Church

And lets not forget what the Lord tells us in the gospel - John 6:56, not long ago i came upon another interesting photo that was done at the right moment.

LOL. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #45 on: March 06, 2017, 04:22:50 PM »
The ceiling
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #46 on: March 06, 2017, 05:55:34 PM »

This isn't at all what I was asking about.  How many converts does the Eastern Orthodox Church receive a year from Anglicanism?  How many does the Roman Catholic Church receive?
Quote
1.3 per cent of current Catholics have been converted either from no religion or a non-Christian faith.
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/issues/june-3rd-2016/how-catholics-can-reclaim-britain/
The UK (minus NI) has almost 5 million Catholics (If you count Northern Ireland, the number will be bigger). 1.3% X 5 = 65,000. That looks relatively small.
I am not sure what the conversion rate for EOs/OOs is.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 05:56:00 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #47 on: March 06, 2017, 07:12:33 PM »

This isn't at all what I was asking about.  How many converts does the Eastern Orthodox Church receive a year from Anglicanism?  How many does the Roman Catholic Church receive?
Quote
1.3 per cent of current Catholics have been converted either from no religion or a non-Christian faith.
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/issues/june-3rd-2016/how-catholics-can-reclaim-britain/
The UK (minus NI) has almost 5 million Catholics (If you count Northern Ireland, the number will be bigger). 1.3% X 5 = 65,000. That looks relatively small.
I am not sure what the conversion rate for EOs/OOs is.

Why don't you just say "I don't know" instead of providing peripheral data that fails to answer any aspect of what I am actually asking?
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #48 on: March 06, 2017, 07:39:45 PM »

This isn't at all what I was asking about.  How many converts does the Eastern Orthodox Church receive a year from Anglicanism?  How many does the Roman Catholic Church receive?
Quote
1.3 per cent of current Catholics have been converted either from no religion or a non-Christian faith.
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/issues/june-3rd-2016/how-catholics-can-reclaim-britain/
The UK (minus NI) has almost 5 million Catholics (If you count Northern Ireland, the number will be bigger). 1.3% X 5 = 65,000. That looks relatively small.
I am not sure what the conversion rate for EOs/OOs is.

Why don't you just say "I don't know" instead of providing peripheral data that fails to answer any aspect of what I am actually asking?
The peripheral data like the reversion issue helps to answer your question, because you said the theory was reasonable. The Catholic conversion statistics are helpful if you can get the Orthodox statistics and compare them.
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #49 on: March 07, 2017, 10:04:51 AM »
Obviously, without Holy Orders, there can be no priesthood, no altar ..., without these the bread remains bread and the wine remains wine.

So how is a person supposed to receive Christ exactly ? ...  By faith alone

Well done. We are agreed - well, in a sense. (I have of course removed the words "and no Church".)

You should take on board - as I have often stated on the forum previously - that I am not in this to convert Orthodox to being Evangelical, nor with a view to myself becoming Orthodox. I do however hope that the discussions can promote bilateral understanding where we may have misunderstood each other, and maybe therefore also foster respect.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 10:09:53 AM by David Young »
"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #50 on: March 07, 2017, 12:39:08 PM »

This isn't at all what I was asking about.  How many converts does the Eastern Orthodox Church receive a year from Anglicanism?  How many does the Roman Catholic Church receive?
Quote
1.3 per cent of current Catholics have been converted either from no religion or a non-Christian faith.
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/issues/june-3rd-2016/how-catholics-can-reclaim-britain/
The UK (minus NI) has almost 5 million Catholics (If you count Northern Ireland, the number will be bigger). 1.3% X 5 = 65,000. That looks relatively small.
I am not sure what the conversion rate for EOs/OOs is.

Why don't you just say "I don't know" instead of providing peripheral data that fails to answer any aspect of what I am actually asking?
The peripheral data like the reversion issue helps to answer your question, because you said the theory was reasonable. The Catholic conversion statistics are helpful if you can get the Orthodox statistics and compare them.

It's not helpful at all.  You are giving me generic data about how many people in the UK become Catholics every year, regardless of their religious background.  Let me say it one more time.  I want to know:

1. How many Anglicans become Roman Catholic every year.

2. How many Anglicans become Orthodox every year.

One might also ask how many Anglicans become Baptists or something else every year, as David Young interjected.

I want to know if Eastern Orthodoxy is really the go-to for Anglicans as Agabus postulated.  The peripheral data you are posting is not helping to answer that question.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #51 on: March 07, 2017, 06:29:43 PM »
I want to know if Eastern Orthodoxy is really the go-to for Anglicans as Agabus postulated.  The peripheral data you are posting is not helping to answer that question.

Did you miss the post where I admitted I didn't  think really that was the case except for a certain type of Anglican?

I'll expand: Guys on the continuum 'Dox, guys in the communion proper go Rome or go home. I'll admit this has gotten a little fuzzier since the continuum guys got together and formed the ACNA.

I'd add in some other corollaries, but then we'd veer into politics fast.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 06:30:37 PM by Agabus »
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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #52 on: March 07, 2017, 07:57:50 PM »
I want to know if Eastern Orthodoxy is really the go-to for Anglicans as Agabus postulated.  The peripheral data you are posting is not helping to answer that question.

Did you miss the post where I admitted I didn't  think really that was the case except for a certain type of Anglican?

No, but this isn't about proving you right or wrong.  I really am curious about the data on the subject.  The Anglican communion seems to be hemorrhaging members.  I'd like to know where most of them wind up, and more importantly, what percentage find their way to Orthodoxy.  Fair enough?
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #53 on: March 07, 2017, 08:08:41 PM »
I want to know if Eastern Orthodoxy is really the go-to for Anglicans as Agabus postulated.  The peripheral data you are posting is not helping to answer that question.

Did you miss the post where I admitted I didn't  think really that was the case except for a certain type of Anglican?

No, but this isn't about proving you right or wrong.

YES IT IS. EVERYTHING IS.  >:(

Quote
I really am curious about the data on the subject.  The Anglican communion seems to be hemorrhaging members.  I'd like to know where most of them wind up, and more importantly, what percentage find their way to Orthodoxy.  Fair enough?

Fair enough.

I'd like to take it one step further and just see someone study conversions to Orthodoxy from within Christianity and see which group a). is biggest, and b). has the most staying power at the five and 10-year marks.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

All hail and agree with AGABUS! the God of this website.

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #54 on: March 07, 2017, 08:13:16 PM »
I want to know if Eastern Orthodoxy is really the go-to for Anglicans as Agabus postulated.  The peripheral data you are posting is not helping to answer that question.

Did you miss the post where I admitted I didn't  think really that was the case except for a certain type of Anglican?

No, but this isn't about proving you right or wrong.

YES IT IS. EVERYTHING IS.  >:(

On this day, you are oc.net.

Quote
I really am curious about the data on the subject.  The Anglican communion seems to be hemorrhaging members.  I'd like to know where most of them wind up, and more importantly, what percentage find their way to Orthodoxy.  Fair enough?

Fair enough.

I'd like to take it one step further and just see someone study conversions to Orthodoxy from within Christianity and see which group a). is biggest, and b). has the most staying power at the five and 10-year marks.

+1
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #55 on: March 07, 2017, 08:27:40 PM »
You should take on board - as I have often stated on the forum previously - that I am not in this to convert Orthodox to being Evangelical,
How many Orthodox have you converted to Evangelicalism over the years?


Quote
I do however hope that the discussions can promote bilateral understanding where we may have misunderstood each other, and maybe therefore also foster respect.
I feel I have a good understanding of Reformed theology, having spent years in it. One thing that appeals to me is that it tends to take a very modern naturalistic objective approach. I think that this is a good way to experiment and learn scientifically about the world. Putting aside the power and major authority of 1900+ years of Christian tradition and bishops, Reformed theology takes a step back to look at religion, while keeping at least a very intense respect for the words on the Bible's pages.

This is a great way to learn about the Cosmos and to study Civil Law. But it's an awful way to study a religion's actual teachings, which are inherently based on the supernatural, religious traditions, and communal interpretations.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 08:31:04 PM by rakovsky »
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #56 on: March 07, 2017, 09:00:06 PM »
Since we discussed reversion to Catholicism, I want to mention Edward the Confessors prophecy about England leaving and reverting to its mother church by the distance of three furlongs. England lacked Catholic bishops from the mid 16th c. to the mid 19th.
See
http://unveilingtheapocalypse.blogspot.com/2011/11/prophecy-of-st-edward-confessor.html?m=1
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #57 on: March 07, 2017, 09:02:00 PM »
One of the biggest conversion sources in the US could be from evangelicals
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #58 on: March 07, 2017, 09:27:28 PM »
I want to know if Eastern Orthodoxy is really the go-to for Anglicans as Agabus postulated.  The peripheral data you are posting is not helping to answer that question.
Thank you for clarifying. Not having the direct data oneself, peripheral/circumstantial data can be very important.

The fact that the RC Church was the basic historic and official national church of England for centuries before the Reformation, but then suppressed and being semi-underground for 300 years, only to lead to massive reversion is one circumstantial piece of evidence.


A second piece of evidence can be that Rome was the patriarchal authority ecclesiastically over England in the way similar to how Antioch was a patriarchal authority over various lands. Following the principle of apostolic succession, Rome's hierarchy could be seen as the "mother church" that someone focused on this episcopal theology could gravitate to.

Another piece of evidence can be a comparison of how many famous Anglicans converted to Catholicism vs. to Orthodoxy. One famous Catholic ex-Anglican that comes to mind is Cardinal Newman.

A fourth piece of evidence can be the movements within the Anglican Church in one direction or another. It's true that there is an Anglican - Orthodox ecumenical organization in the UK (Fellowship of St Albans). But the Anglo-Catholic movement is much larger, with many Anglo-Catholic parishes in the US and UK. Anglo-Catholics are already very Catholic-leaning, so I expect the RC Church would be their go-to if they were going to leave Anglicanism.
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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #59 on: March 07, 2017, 09:31:09 PM »
I want to know if Eastern Orthodoxy is really the go-to for Anglicans as Agabus postulated.  The peripheral data you are posting is not helping to answer that question.
Thank you for clarifying. Not having the direct data oneself, peripheral/circumstantial data can be very important.

The fact that the RC Church was the basic historic and official national church of England for centuries before the Reformation, but then suppressed and being semi-underground for 300 years, only to lead to massive reversion is one circumstantial piece of evidence.


A second piece of evidence can be that Rome was the patriarchal authority ecclesiastically over England in the way similar to how Antioch was a patriarchal authority over various lands. Following the principle of apostolic succession, Rome's hierarchy could be seen as the "mother church" that someone focused on this episcopal theology could gravitate to.

Another piece of evidence can be a comparison of how many famous Anglicans converted to Catholicism vs. to Orthodoxy. One famous Catholic ex-Anglican that comes to mind is Cardinal Newman.

A fourth piece of evidence can be the movements within the Anglican Church in one direction or another. It's true that there is an Anglican - Orthodox ecumenical organization in the UK (Fellowship of St Albans). But the Anglo-Catholic movement is much larger, with many Anglo-Catholic parishes in the US and UK. Anglo-Catholics are already very Catholic-leaning, so I expect the RC Church would be their go-to if they were going to leave Anglicanism.

With all respect, rakovsky, I knew all of this, and it really doesn't bring me any closer to an answer to my question at all.  Since Google isn't availing much either though, I thank you for your input and for trying.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline David Young

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #60 on: March 08, 2017, 07:00:41 AM »
How many Orthodox have you converted to Evangelicalism over the years?

None, nor have I tried. It may be that people have heard me preach in Albania who were from an Orthodox family background but had not yet come to any personal faith in Christ, and that my words helped them to believe savingly in him. If so, they may subsequently have joined an Evangelical rather than an Orthodox church. But I am not aware of any such listeners. If their names are in the Lamb's book of life, it does not bother me greatly whether they have reverted to their Orthodox background, or continued among us.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #61 on: March 08, 2017, 12:39:39 PM »
Since Google isn't availing much either though, I thank you for your input and for trying.
Hey you said something nice.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #62 on: March 08, 2017, 12:45:17 PM »
How many Orthodox have you converted to Evangelicalism over the years?

None, nor have I tried.
OK. I thought you had said something else before about you evangelizing people who were Orthodox in Orthodox countries.
Maybe I misremembered.
Peace.
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #63 on: March 08, 2017, 12:47:14 PM »
Since Google isn't availing much either though, I thank you for your input and for trying.
Hey you said something nice.

Hey, you (almost) made a post without trolling!  ;)
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #64 on: March 08, 2017, 02:14:32 PM »
I thought you had said something else before about you evangelizing people who were Orthodox in Orthodox countries.
Maybe I misremembered.
Peace.

We evangelise people indiscriminately, without asking each individual in advance whether he is already born again. In Albania that would mean, on average, that 20% were from traditionally Orthodox families. 70% would have a Moslem background, whether Sunni or Bektashi, and 10% Roman Catholic. But in reality many would not really have any personal faith. Those who respond to the gospel we present come from all those backgrounds, as no doubt to people who turn to Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 02:15:14 PM by David Young »
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #65 on: March 08, 2017, 05:59:08 PM »
Since Google isn't availing much either though, I thank you for your input and for trying.
Hey you said something nice.

Hey, you (almost) made a post without trolling!  ;)

Past precedent on these forums considers calling someone a troll or accusing them of trolling an ad hom. Save that for the private fora.
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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #66 on: July 21, 2017, 02:42:44 PM »
Does it make sense to convert from one form of protestantism to another ? I think people who convert from anglicanism want access to authentic Eucharist so they choose the denomination which they consider to have true Holy Orders, so they may receive true sacraments.

People do convert from one Protestant faith to another all the time. 

 Nor do our notions of sacramental validity necessarily have much to do with Orthodox notions of validity.   We Lutherans believe in the priesthood of all believers and we regard the type of church governance one has as a purely human institution with no specific divine command or promise attached to it.   
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Offline Pravoslavbob

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #67 on: July 21, 2017, 04:24:32 PM »
People do convert from one Protestant faith to another all the time. 

 Nor do our notions of sacramental validity necessarily have much to do with Orthodox notions of validity.   We Lutherans believe in the priesthood of all believers and we regard the type of church governance one has as a purely human institution with no specific divine command or promise attached to it.   

The Orthodox also believe in the priesthood of all believers, though we do not refer to it as such.  We believe that the one true priesthood is that of Christ, and that every Orthodox Christian shares in this priesthood.  We also believe, however, that Christ appointed the apostles to a ministry of service and presidency in the Church.  The apostles and their successors, working in concert with the Holy Spirit , have appointed bishops, presbyters and deacons to serve and preside in their stead.  We believe that, from the earliest times, only a bishop or someone delegated by him (a presbyter) has had the authority to  preside at the Eucharistic liturgy.  Also from the earliest times, however, we have  believed that while the  Church is hierarchical , those in authority preside in love within the Church, not above it.  We also believe that all are, in one sense, equal in the Church,  although not the same: every order or level has different gifts or duties to carry out.  So much in Orthodoxy is paradoxical, and this illustration of how the Church functions is a good example of this.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 05:07:11 PM by Pravoslavbob »
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #68 on: July 21, 2017, 04:37:29 PM »
Does it make sense to convert from one form of protestantism to another ? I think people who convert from anglicanism want access to authentic Eucharist so they choose the denomination which they consider to have true Holy Orders, so they may receive true sacraments.

People do convert from one Protestant faith to another all the time. 

 Nor do our notions of sacramental validity necessarily have much to do with Orthodox notions of validity.   We Lutherans believe in the priesthood of all believers and we regard the type of church governance one has as a purely human institution with no specific divine command or promise attached to it.   

We believe in the same idea. But the Sacramental priesthood, established by Christ and the Apostles is not the same thing as the priesthood of all believers.
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #69 on: July 21, 2017, 04:39:49 PM »
Does it make sense to convert from one form of protestantism to another ? I think people who convert from anglicanism want access to authentic Eucharist so they choose the denomination which they consider to have true Holy Orders, so they may receive true sacraments.

People do convert from one Protestant faith to another all the time. 

 Nor do our notions of sacramental validity necessarily have much to do with Orthodox notions of validity.   We Lutherans believe in the priesthood of all believers and we regard the type of church governance one has as a purely human institution with no specific divine command or promise attached to it.   

We believe in the same idea. But the Sacramental priesthood, established by Christ and the Apostles is not the same thing as the priesthood of all believers.

What do you mean by "Sacramental" here?
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #70 on: July 22, 2017, 12:55:48 AM »
It's not like Orthodoxy is in any way deficient.
Obviously it is in this way, at least in the Americas: numbers.  The odds of an inquiring Anglican to trip at a Roman church are much higher than at an Orthodox church.  Similarly on the odds of him personally knowing a practicing Roman or Orthodox.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 01:03:49 AM by Sharbel »
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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #71 on: July 22, 2017, 04:37:22 AM »
We believe in the same idea. But the Sacramental priesthood, established by Christ and the Apostles is not the same thing as the priesthood of all believers.

Apostolic succession through a hierarchy of bishops and priests is a tradition of men, that, while ancient and having a certain dignity, is not the essence of the Church.   If a president or bishop were to become heretical or absent, it would be within the authority of a congregation to appoint a new president called to that ministry.   Consequently, the structure of Lutheran churches tends to be varied.  Some have a sacramental priesthood of bishops, priests, and deacons, and others do not.  Some are strictly congregational (especially some Pietists and the LCMS), others are not. In the ELCA, congregations that choose to disaffiliate have not been sued for their property, because the property is understood to belong to the local congregation, not the wider church body.   

We are held together strictly by shared mission, and perhaps, though not always perfectly evident, love.  We don't have an institutional view of the Church.  In Lutheran churches you'ld never have a situation like the Priestless Old Believers, who believe that there is no priesthood left on earth, and therefore no Eucharist.  As my pastor said, if you find yourself in a situation without a Lutheran church, "start one of your own".   The Church, down here below, is made of believers gathered around Word and Sacrament, it is local and concrete.



« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 04:40:48 AM by Daedelus1138 »
"I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all; but whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess."   - Martin Luther

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #72 on: July 22, 2017, 12:21:41 PM »
We believe in the same idea. But the Sacramental priesthood, established by Christ and the Apostles is not the same thing as the priesthood of all believers.

Apostolic succession through a hierarchy of bishops and priests is a tradition of men, that, while ancient and having a certain dignity, is not the essence of the Church.   

Maybe in your religion, but not in Christianity.  Even St Paul had to be ordained.
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #73 on: July 22, 2017, 12:51:00 PM »
We believe in the same idea. But the Sacramental priesthood, established by Christ and the Apostles is not the same thing as the priesthood of all believers.

Apostolic succession through a hierarchy of bishops and priests is a tradition of men, that, while ancient and having a certain dignity, is not the essence of the Church.   

Maybe in your religion, but not in Christianity.  Even St Paul had to be ordained.

Such a good example. Called by an appearance of Christ himself. Still put himself under the ordaining hands of the presbyters in Antioch. Taught by the Spirit for two years in total isolation in the Arabian deserts. Still submitted himself to the Apostles and St. Peter in Jerusalem. Hailed throughout Grecia and Asia Minor as the local churches' founder and spiritual father. Still attended a council to judge his activities and submitted himself to the attendees and St. James.
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #74 on: July 22, 2017, 01:26:37 PM »
Maybe in your religion, but not in Christianity.  Even St Paul had to be ordained.

We also recognize the necessity of ordination for the purposes of good order.  We just don't believe the power to ordain resides exclusively in a particular hierarchy of men.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #75 on: July 22, 2017, 01:52:28 PM »
Maybe in your religion, but not in Christianity.  Even St Paul had to be ordained.

We also recognize the necessity of ordination for the purposes of good order.  We just don't believe the power to ordain resides exclusively in a particular hierarchy of men.

So much for Scripture!
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #76 on: July 22, 2017, 02:27:39 PM »
Maybe in your religion, but not in Christianity.  Even St Paul had to be ordained.

We also recognize the necessity of ordination for the purposes of good order.  We just don't believe the power to ordain resides exclusively in a particular hierarchy of men.

So much for Scripture!

While we do consider the Bible the normative basis for all Christian doctrine, we are not biblicists, nor do we have the same regulative principle as some other Christian groups.  Church governance does not have to look exactly like the new testament church to be valid.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Former Anglican bishop ordained Orthodox priest
« Reply #77 on: July 22, 2017, 02:43:24 PM »
Maybe in your religion, but not in Christianity.  Even St Paul had to be ordained.

We also recognize the necessity of ordination for the purposes of good order.  We just don't believe the power to ordain resides exclusively in a particular hierarchy of men.

So much for Scripture!

While we do consider the Bible the normative basis for all Christian doctrine, we are not biblicists, nor do we have the same regulative principle as some other Christian groups.  Church governance does not have to look exactly like the new testament church to be valid.

So Sola Scriptura was just something with which to bash the other guys? Makes so much sense now.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy