Author Topic: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order  (Read 2624 times)

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Offline asdamick

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"Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« on: February 21, 2017, 08:41:22 PM »
The new edition of Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy: Finding the Way to Christ in a Complicated Religions Landscape is now available on pre-order: http://store.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxy-and-heterodoxy-finding-the-way-to-christ-in-a-complicated-religious-landscape-2017-edition/

The book is about 90% bigger than the 2011 edition, and if you're curious about how it's different, you can read it all here:  http://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2016/04/02/whats-revised-orthodoxy-heterodoxy/


I'm happy to answer any questions anyone may have.  Thanks!

 
The Very Rev. Archpriest Andrew Stephen Damick, Emmaus, Pennsylvania

Books: "Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy" (2011) & "An Introduction to God" (2014) (both from Ancient Faith Publishing / Conciliar Press), as well as the forthcoming "Bearing God" (2017).

Podcasts:  The Areopagus, Orthodoxy & Heterodoxty, Roads from Emmaus

Offline rakovsky

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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2017, 10:09:00 PM »
The new edition of Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy: Finding the Way to Christ in a Complicated Religions Landscape is now available on pre-order: http://store.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxy-and-heterodoxy-finding-the-way-to-christ-in-a-complicated-religious-landscape-2017-edition/

The book is about 90% bigger than the 2011 edition, and if you're curious about how it's different, you can read it all here:  http://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2016/04/02/whats-revised-orthodoxy-heterodoxy/


I'm happy to answer any questions anyone may have.  Thanks!

From your page:
Quote
Major Historical Heresies (Docetism,... Nestorianism, Monophysitism, ..., Monothelitism, Monoenergism,...)

He writes on p. 23,
Quote
Also called Eutychianism for its founder, Eutyches, Monophysitism taught that Jesus Christ was not "in two natures", but rather only "from two natures," forming a sort of hybrid nature which was half-God and half-man

Wasn't Eutyches' teaching not that Christ had a hybrid half God half-man nature, but rather that Christ's godly nature swallowed the manly nature, leaving only the one godly nature out of those two natures involved?
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline JTLoganville

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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2017, 10:39:07 PM »
And here I thought that I was getting a bargain when I fell for the $5.00 fire sale price of the original book earlier today upon receipt of an Ancient Faith email blast.

As Charlie Brown would say,  "RATS!"

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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2017, 02:24:10 AM »
And here I thought that I was getting a bargain when I fell for the $5.00 fire sale price of the original book earlier today upon receipt of an Ancient Faith email blast.

As Charlie Brown would say,  "RATS!"
That is a bargain, though.
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

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Offline hecma925

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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2017, 06:42:36 AM »
I guess, I'll spring on this new one.
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Offline asdamick

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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2017, 02:04:04 PM »
The new edition of Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy: Finding the Way to Christ in a Complicated Religions Landscape is now available on pre-order: http://store.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxy-and-heterodoxy-finding-the-way-to-christ-in-a-complicated-religious-landscape-2017-edition/

The book is about 90% bigger than the 2011 edition, and if you're curious about how it's different, you can read it all here:  http://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2016/04/02/whats-revised-orthodoxy-heterodoxy/


I'm happy to answer any questions anyone may have.  Thanks!

From your page:
Quote
Major Historical Heresies (Docetism,... Nestorianism, Monophysitism, ..., Monothelitism, Monoenergism,...)

He writes on p. 23,
Quote
Also called Eutychianism for its founder, Eutyches, Monophysitism taught that Jesus Christ was not "in two natures", but rather only "from two natures," forming a sort of hybrid nature which was half-God and half-man

Wasn't Eutyches' teaching not that Christ had a hybrid half God half-man nature, but rather that Christ's godly nature swallowed the manly nature, leaving only the one godly nature out of those two natures involved?

This is one of the things clarified.  It's worth noting, though, that the language of a "hybrid" nature (or a "synthesis") is often still used in scholarly sources when discussing Eutychian Monophysitism.  The "half-" language is pretty inexact, though, so I've eliminated it.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 02:15:52 PM by asdamick »
The Very Rev. Archpriest Andrew Stephen Damick, Emmaus, Pennsylvania

Books: "Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy" (2011) & "An Introduction to God" (2014) (both from Ancient Faith Publishing / Conciliar Press), as well as the forthcoming "Bearing God" (2017).

Podcasts:  The Areopagus, Orthodoxy & Heterodoxty, Roads from Emmaus

Offline Iconodule

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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2017, 02:18:14 PM »
As I recall, the statement of Eutyches that aroused the most controversy was that Christ was not consubstantial with his mother.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2017, 05:19:55 PM »
Cargo cults even made the cut. Awesome.
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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2017, 05:51:29 PM »
Cargo cults even made the cut. Awesome.
In Louisiana, those are called Cargeaux cults.
If you will, you can become all flame.
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Y dduw bo'r diolch.

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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2017, 06:37:56 PM »
Cargo cults even made the cut. Awesome.
In Louisiana, those are called Cargeaux cults.

Yes, but they only worship Mike the Tiger.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline Iconodule

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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2017, 11:28:59 AM »
Are Cargo Cults still a thing?
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Opus118

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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2017, 12:48:34 PM »
Is this a good book to read if you know almost nothing about the protestant wing of Christianity. The discussions here use terms that just sound like gibberish to me.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2017, 04:47:02 PM »
Does Aphthartodocetism make it in?
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2017, 05:54:02 PM »
I am a bit on the fence on whether to get this right away, in part because of late I have been a bit focused on the Panarion of St. Epiphanius of Salamis.  Everything in the Panarion is per se heretical, whereas in the case of the Roman Catholics, we tend to forget that they broke communion with us, not vice versa; I think the wishlist for ecumenical reconciliation contained in the first edition was not entirely realistic or appropriate (it would impose on the RCC humiliating concessions which in many cases do not represent an actual return to the pre-1054, or in the case of Antioch, pre-1078 Status quo ante).

My other concern is whether or not the anti-OO sentiments of Nicholas Marinides have influenced the new book.  I stopped reading the O&H blog largely because of his articles (which seemed to target the OOs while ignoring Assyrians, RCs, Protestants, et cetera).   If these views are not reflected in the text for the new book I will almost certainly get it.

The original book was very enjoyable, although I also have to confess some of the explanations that followed the descriptions of non-Christian religions, explaining how they differed from Eastern Orthodoxy, were a bit obvious.  I would have preferred it had Archpriest Andrew likened them to various unpleasant biological creatures in the manner of St. Epiphanius (for example, I am sure we could mostly agree that Islamic fundamentalism is analogous to Smallpox).
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 05:59:16 PM by wgw »
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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2017, 05:56:21 PM »
Does Aphthartodocetism make it in?

That would be interesting if it did, given that the EOs basically rejected it using an argument and a theological approach essentially derived from St. Severus.  Apthartodocetism was the main theological error of St. Justinian (who I think deserves a lot of credit for introducing into the Byzantine liturgy the Ho Monoges hymn, also written by St. Severus, which I consider to be the best defense against Christological error).
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 05:59:48 PM by wgw »
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline asdamick

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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2017, 06:59:03 PM »
Is this a good book to read if you know almost nothing about the protestant wing of Christianity. The discussions here use terms that just sound like gibberish to me.

Yes, the book introduces Protestant denominations from their beginnings, explaining their distinctive history and doctrines.
The Very Rev. Archpriest Andrew Stephen Damick, Emmaus, Pennsylvania

Books: "Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy" (2011) & "An Introduction to God" (2014) (both from Ancient Faith Publishing / Conciliar Press), as well as the forthcoming "Bearing God" (2017).

Podcasts:  The Areopagus, Orthodoxy & Heterodoxty, Roads from Emmaus

Offline asdamick

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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2017, 07:01:22 PM »
Does Aphthartodocetism make it in?

No.  Honestly, if I included everything that could be included, the book would probably have ended up 4x bigger rather than 2x.  :)  Most of the ancient heresies just get about a paragraph, anyway.
The Very Rev. Archpriest Andrew Stephen Damick, Emmaus, Pennsylvania

Books: "Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy" (2011) & "An Introduction to God" (2014) (both from Ancient Faith Publishing / Conciliar Press), as well as the forthcoming "Bearing God" (2017).

Podcasts:  The Areopagus, Orthodoxy & Heterodoxty, Roads from Emmaus

Offline asdamick

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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2017, 07:05:35 PM »
I am a bit on the fence on whether to get this right away, in part because of late I have been a bit focused on the Panarion of St. Epiphanius of Salamis.  Everything in the Panarion is per se heretical, whereas in the case of the Roman Catholics, we tend to forget that they broke communion with us, not vice versa; I think the wishlist for ecumenical reconciliation contained in the first edition was not entirely realistic or appropriate (it would impose on the RCC humiliating concessions which in many cases do not represent an actual return to the pre-1054, or in the case of Antioch, pre-1078 Status quo ante).

That "wishlist" was eliminated from this edition in favor of a lot more nuance, expansion and even some correction.

Quote
My other concern is whether or not the anti-OO sentiments of Nicholas Marinides have influenced the new book.  I stopped reading the O&H blog largely because of his articles (which seemed to target the OOs while ignoring Assyrians, RCs, Protestants, et cetera).   If these views are not reflected in the text for the new book I will almost certainly get it.

The treatment of the OOs in the new edition is nearly the same as in the first edition.  A brief description is given of the rejection of the heresy of Eutyches and mention that Miaphysitism is considered different by those who adhere to it.  I regard the Chalcedonian question as being entirely too large for this work.


Quote
The original book was very enjoyable, although I also have to confess some of the explanations that followed the descriptions of non-Christian religions, explaining how they differed from Eastern Orthodoxy, were a bit obvious.  I would have preferred it had Archpriest Andrew likened them to various unpleasant biological creatures in the manner of St. Epiphanius (for example, I am sure we could mostly agree that Islamic fundamentalism is analogous to Smallpox).

Alas, I think you'll be disappointed again in that regard.  :)  Part of the point of this revision/expansion is to steer away from polemic and more toward an irenical approach, though without flinching from necessary critique.  Likening one's interlocutors to diseases tends to put one in the former category.  :)
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 07:05:59 PM by asdamick »
The Very Rev. Archpriest Andrew Stephen Damick, Emmaus, Pennsylvania

Books: "Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy" (2011) & "An Introduction to God" (2014) (both from Ancient Faith Publishing / Conciliar Press), as well as the forthcoming "Bearing God" (2017).

Podcasts:  The Areopagus, Orthodoxy & Heterodoxty, Roads from Emmaus

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2017, 09:26:05 PM »
Does Aphthartodocetism make it in?

No.  Honestly, if I included everything that could be included, the book would probably have ended up 4x bigger rather than 2x.  :)  Most of the ancient heresies just get about a paragraph, anyway.
I only ask because it's a common one today.

There's a reason why some Byzantine manuscript has "nor the son" cut out of it!
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2017, 02:36:24 AM »
If you say "nor the Son", you should also include the so-called "Agnoete" as well.
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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2017, 10:26:48 AM »
Does Aphthartodocetism make it in?

No.  Honestly, if I included everything that could be included, the book would probably have ended up 4x bigger rather than 2x.  :)  Most of the ancient heresies just get about a paragraph, anyway.
I only ask because it's a common one today.

There's a reason why some Byzantine manuscript has "nor the son" cut out of it!
The suggestion that Jesus was somehow faking it when he prayed or declared his ignorance of something does seem to be embedded in some mainstream sources. For instance, Saint John Damascene says that Jesus prayed only to give us an example. I agree it is a problem that needs more attention.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline wgw

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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2017, 10:32:54 AM »
I am a bit on the fence on whether to get this right away, in part because of late I have been a bit focused on the Panarion of St. Epiphanius of Salamis.  Everything in the Panarion is per se heretical, whereas in the case of the Roman Catholics, we tend to forget that they broke communion with us, not vice versa; I think the wishlist for ecumenical reconciliation contained in the first edition was not entirely realistic or appropriate (it would impose on the RCC humiliating concessions which in many cases do not represent an actual return to the pre-1054, or in the case of Antioch, pre-1078 Status quo ante).

That "wishlist" was eliminated from this edition in favor of a lot more nuance, expansion and even some correction.

Quote
My other concern is whether or not the anti-OO sentiments of Nicholas Marinides have influenced the new book.  I stopped reading the O&H blog largely because of his articles (which seemed to target the OOs while ignoring Assyrians, RCs, Protestants, et cetera).   If these views are not reflected in the text for the new book I will almost certainly get it.

The treatment of the OOs in the new edition is nearly the same as in the first edition.  A brief description is given of the rejection of the heresy of Eutyches and mention that Miaphysitism is considered different by those who adhere to it.  I regard the Chalcedonian question as being entirely too large for this work.


Quote
The original book was very enjoyable, although I also have to confess some of the explanations that followed the descriptions of non-Christian religions, explaining how they differed from Eastern Orthodoxy, were a bit obvious.  I would have preferred it had Archpriest Andrew likened them to various unpleasant biological creatures in the manner of St. Epiphanius (for example, I am sure we could mostly agree that Islamic fundamentalism is analogous to Smallpox).

Alas, I think you'll be disappointed again in that regard.  :)  Part of the point of this revision/expansion is to steer away from polemic and more toward an irenical approach, though without flinching from necessary critique.  Likening one's interlocutors to diseases tends to put one in the former category.  :)

That sounds very nice actually.  I will definitely get the new version!
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline Opus118

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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2017, 05:43:46 PM »
Is this a good book to read if you know almost nothing about the protestant wing of Christianity. The discussions here use terms that just sound like gibberish to me.

Yes, the book introduces Protestant denominations from their beginnings, explaining their distinctive history and doctrines.

Thanks, this is what I need.
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Offline biro

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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2017, 08:22:30 PM »
Very much looking forward to this. I'll probably order next week. :)
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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2017, 05:35:15 PM »
Looking good fr. Andrew!

By the way, fr. Andrew, and other STS almus: did any professior at STS ever criticize the scholarly work of Senastian Brock or teach St. Isaac the Syrian was not a Nestorian Universalist?

Just curious, had a question come up in a debate.


Dear Commander Xenophon, please note that the poster and at the same the author of the books is an Orthodox priest, so you should address him in the proper way. I believe you have made this mistake unconsciously.
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« Last Edit: March 05, 2017, 08:34:25 AM by Dominika »
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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2017, 11:18:59 PM »
If you say "nor the Son", you should also include the so-called "Agnoete" as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnoetae

Do you care to elaborate? :)
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2017, 12:46:02 PM »
If you say "nor the Son", you should also include the so-called "Agnoete" as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnoetae

Do you care to elaborate? :)

Long story short:  this verse about "nor the Son" knowing when the day of Judgment has more to do with Agnoetae than Aphthartodocetism, unless one is making some sort of argument that "nor the Son" done in a way that doesn't please someone is associated with the latter belief.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2017, 11:36:02 PM »
If you say "nor the Son", you should also include the so-called "Agnoete" as well.

Aside from a fiat/appeal to antiquity, loose patristic references and schaff, what is the demonstration that such is heresy?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 11:36:59 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2017, 11:37:57 PM »
unless one is making some sort of argument that "nor the Son" done in a way that doesn't please someone is associated with the latter belief.
That or castration anxiety projected onto God.

Alexandrian kenosis phobia
« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 11:38:24 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2017, 03:14:17 PM »
If you say "nor the Son", you should also include the so-called "Agnoete" as well.

Aside from a fiat/appeal to antiquity, loose patristic references and schaff, what is the demonstration that such is heresy?

Pope Gregory the Great and Pope Eulogius of Alexandria were prominent anti-Agnoetae Chalcedonians.  I don't think that should be easily ridiculed or ignored, but taken very seriously.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2017, 03:31:11 PM »
As far as I know, the first Orthodox theologian to fully detail a kenotic model of Christ's human ignorance was Bulgakov. If anyone knows of an earlier writer I'd be interested to see that.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2017, 01:28:27 AM »
If you say "nor the Son", you should also include the so-called "Agnoete" as well.

Aside from a fiat/appeal to antiquity, loose patristic references and schaff, what is the demonstration that such is heresy?

Pope Gregory the Great and Pope Eulogius of Alexandria were prominent anti-Agnoetae Chalcedonians.  I don't think that should be easily ridiculed or ignored, but taken very seriously.
Right, they said it, but what was the argument?
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2017, 09:27:54 AM »
If you say "nor the Son", you should also include the so-called "Agnoete" as well.

Aside from a fiat/appeal to antiquity, loose patristic references and schaff, what is the demonstration that such is heresy?

Pope Gregory the Great and Pope Eulogius of Alexandria were prominent anti-Agnoetae Chalcedonians.  I don't think that should be easily ridiculed or ignored, but taken very seriously.
Right, they said it, but what was the argument?

If I recall correctly, they agreed that if you take the human mind apart from the divinity, it is naturally ignorant in and of itself, but after the hypostatic union, it is considered omniscient.  In other words, while eternal knowledge does not come from humanity, it was nevertheless infused into the humanity.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 09:32:55 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2017, 10:25:20 AM »
If you say "nor the Son", you should also include the so-called "Agnoete" as well.

Aside from a fiat/appeal to antiquity, loose patristic references and schaff, what is the demonstration that such is heresy?

Pope Gregory the Great and Pope Eulogius of Alexandria were prominent anti-Agnoetae Chalcedonians.  I don't think that should be easily ridiculed or ignored, but taken very seriously.
Right, they said it, but what was the argument?

If I recall correctly, they agreed that if you take the human mind apart from the divinity, it is naturally ignorant in and of itself, but after the hypostatic union, it is considered omniscient.  In other words, while eternal knowledge does not come from humanity, it was nevertheless infused into the humanity.

But why stop there? Why not further infer that his body was impervious to hunger, pain, and death itself, and that the passion was just for show?
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline minasoliman

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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2017, 11:04:39 AM »
I sympathize with your questions, but I think the fathers during these centuries treated knowledge differently than other parts of human function.  I think this requires a study into why human knowledge is treated differently than other human aspects of Christ.  What is knowledge in human antiquity?  And then we can safely study whether this understanding is different today and does it allow for a more accurate view of Christology based on updated anthropology.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2017, 11:36:18 AM »
Must be something like the humanity of the crucified Christ absorbing everything on the cross.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 11:37:14 AM by WPM »
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2017, 07:46:17 PM »
If I recall correctly, they agreed that if you take the human mind apart from the divinity, it is naturally ignorant in and of itself, but after the hypostatic union, it is considered omniscient.  In other words, while eternal knowledge does not come from humanity, it was nevertheless infused into the humanity.
That doesn't entail that Christ didn't know the hour, and how do we decide which divine properties necessarily affect the particular humanity and which don't? His divine immateriality didn't make his body immaterial, etc.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 07:47:46 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2017, 07:48:56 PM »
I think the fathers during these centuries treated knowledge differently than other parts of human function. 
Nobody's perfect!  :police:
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 07:49:20 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2017, 11:17:01 PM »
Looking good fr. Andrew!

By the way, fr. Andrew, and other STS almus: did any professior at STS ever criticize the scholarly work of Senastian Brock or teach St. Isaac the Syrian was not a Nestorian Universalist?

Just curious, had a question come up in a debate.

I don't recall whether it was discussed.  It's been 10 years since I graduated, though.
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Re: "Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy" (2017 edition) available to order
« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2017, 03:09:55 PM »
Wondering if the new edition would be good for someone seeking info about the Orthodox church in comparison to other beliefs without being overwhelmed by it? Is it a 'dip in' kind of book?
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