Topic: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?

[drealm]

I would like to know if Orthodox services in Ukraine are gender segregated. I've been told they used to be but I'm not sure if this is still the case. I may be traveling to Ukraine later this year and would like to visit some. If anyone knows of any Churches that are gender segregated, please let me know. I can travel to any city in Ukraine.

[rakovsky]

I would like to know if Orthodox services in Ukraine are gender segregated. I've been told they used to be but I'm not sure if this is still the case. I may be traveling to Ukraine later this year and would like to visit some. If anyone knows of any Churches that are gender segregated, please let me know. I can travel to any city in Ukraine.

You can enter any church even if it's segregated, you just stand on the correct side depending on your gender. If you are woman, stand on the left and by default no one will correct you.

[seekeroftruth777]

From what I understand most Slavic Orthodox churches have Gender seperation, as opposed to most Greek Orthodox Churches, from my limited experience.

[Αριστοκλής]

From what I understand most Slavic Orthodox churches have Gender seperation, as opposed to most Greek Orthodox Churches, from my limited experience.

In the USA for sure, but not in Greece.

[hecma925]

You'll know when you get there.

[LizaSymonenko]

From what I understand most Slavic Orthodox churches have Gender seperation, as opposed to most Greek Orthodox Churches, from my limited experience.

In the USA for sure, but not in Greece.

I'm in the USA, and I attend a Ukrainian parish...and we are NOT segregated. 

We used to be, with women standing on the left as you enter, and men on the right.

However, over the years many young families have joined, and the parents wish to tend to their young children together.

Today, we stand wherever we like.

[Mor Ephrem]

I'm in the USA, and I attend a Ukrainian parish...and we are NOT segregated. 

We used to be, with women standing on the left as you enter, and men on the right.

However, over the years many young families have joined, and the parents wish to tend to their young children together.

Today, we stand wherever we like.

I am witnessing this transition occurring in an Indian parish and it makes me sad. 

[Asteriktos]

I'm in the USA, and I attend a Ukrainian parish...and we are NOT segregated. 

We used to be, with women standing on the left as you enter, and men on the right.

However, over the years many young families have joined, and the parents wish to tend to their young children together.

Today, we stand wherever we like.

I am witnessing this transition occurring in an Indian parish and it makes me sad.

I can think up possible reasons, but rather than presume... why do you feel that way?

[LizaSymonenko]

I could venture a guess, because I sort of feel the same as Mor.

...it is a sense of losing the "old ways", of perhaps acquiescing to modernism,...a fear that this leniency may grow to other aspects of the Faith...that we will accept and even promote things which are not of the Church.

Yes, this is a little thing...but, the carelessness to little things, can lead to carelessness to larger things.

[WPM]

Could be ... Not %100 sure

[hecma925]

Mommies need help.

[Mor Ephrem]

I'm in the USA, and I attend a Ukrainian parish...and we are NOT segregated. 

We used to be, with women standing on the left as you enter, and men on the right.

However, over the years many young families have joined, and the parents wish to tend to their young children together.

Today, we stand wherever we like.

I am witnessing this transition occurring in an Indian parish and it makes me sad.

I can think up possible reasons, but rather than presume... why do you feel that way?

Asteriktos,

I keep forgetting about this thread because of where it's located.  Apologies. 

I prefer the original arrangement ("gender segregated", to use the terms of the OP) for a few reasons which I'll throw out there in no particular order with the disclaimer that I haven't really thought about them so thoroughly as to write about them more cogently. 

One reason is simply "tradition".  Until very recently in Christian history, all Christians arranged themselves in this way during communal worship and did so from as far back as we have records.  This tradition transcended language, culture, geography, denominational boundaries, and just about any other dividing factor we can think of.  Because of the high regard we have for received traditions, this is enough of a reason to keep it. 

Segregated arrangements are less distracting.  No matter how much we try to focus on our own response to distractions rather than the things/people we find distracting, it is helpful to limit distractions as much as we can.  Most people will read that and think I'm talking about men gawking at women and vice versa, and that's part of it, but it's not by any means all of it (and anyway, if you, like my cousin once upon a time, are determined to gawk, you'll find a way to stand through a three hour Liturgy with your head peering over one or the other shoulder and not care that dozens of fathers-of-daughters can see you). 

I think the segregated arrangement is a sign that speaks more loudly than any sermon could of our creation in God's image and likeness as male and female, about the inherent goodness of sexual difference and the dignity of men and women as men and women, about how we approach God and are saved and sanctified precisely as men and women, etc., and it seems to me that we need to bear witness to that teaching today more than ever.   

Related to this, I think it's helpful in modeling the faith for future generations.  Young men and boys standing on the men's side of a church are surrounded by and observe older men while they pray and worship, are perhaps even guided by these men in how to conduct themselves during the services, etc.  They learn how to be Christian men by spending time with Christian men.  The same can be said for young women and girls worshiping in the midst of older women. 

It seems to me that women have an easier time forming community among themselves than men do, but it's important for men as well, and I think segregation helps both men and women do that.  A non-segregated church typically arranges itself along (nuclear) family lines first and then perhaps in proximity to other friends or friend-families.  In a segregated church, it's just a bunch of men on one side and a bunch of women on the other.  It's more difficult to see the relationships that have brought everyone to the same place (e.g., blood, marriage) and you are less limited by them, so you are free to forge new bonds.  The church becomes "family" more radically than in mixed congregations. 

When I wrote of my sadness at watching the transition from segregation to mixture in a particular Indian parish, it's primarily because the members who are most enthusiastic about the transition seem to view the things I've just described as outdated, irrelevant, obsolete, even perhaps bad.  They seem to want a more personalised parish experience into which their family unit can plug in as a family unit, preferring to maintain the independence of the nuclear family from the larger community.  They'd probably view the appeal to tradition as a form of antiquarianism, and while they probably accept the traditional teaching on creation and sex, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a hearty "Yes, but..." lurking beneath the surface.  Because this tradition has been lost even among many (most?) Orthodox in this country, it's easy to understand if our priests go along with their parishioners' request to implement mixed seating/standing and choose something else to fight for, but in doing so I think we will have lost something of great value.     

I'm not saying that segregation is a panacea.  Segregated parishes have all sorts of problems.  But ultimately I think it is a more catholic way of standing together before God than the non-segregated arrangement, which seems to me to be more focused on family, tribe, and/or the individual. 

[Alpo]

I don't understand how people can stand at the wrong side. I don't even have that long bacground as an Orthodox and I feel uncomfortable if I happen to stand at women's side.

As for Finland, the segration is not enforced but it's more or less happening. Some don't apply to it and I don't think  they receive bad looks but most stand at the correct side.

[Porter ODoran]

Men stand before the Christ, women the Theotokos. It's an iconic tradition that's not special to Slavs. The U.S. is just a bit messed up, and not only in this way. Greeks in the U.S. just weren't pious until rather recently -- they came to North America in large numbers starting in the '20s but barely even bothered to have churches until decades later. Most came with a secular, material outlook and the apostasy continues in some degree, in my opinion.

[Asteriktos]

Thanks Mor Ephrem, that's quite a number of both practical and theological reasons, which all make sense.

[servulus]

Mommies need help.

The father could take half the children with him. Or at least some of them.

[Porter ODoran]

Mommies need help.

Economia is the basis for exceptions, not rules. Why can't the very back of the church be the youngest families, with babies and parents going back and forth as necessary?

The way I grew up (not Orthodox, just a practical example), babies of 1 year old or so, of both sexes, tended to sit with fathers and infants with mothers. American fathers might not be able to pull that off (tragic if true), but it is just one example of how traditions aren't that irksome for traditional people.

[Mor Ephrem]

Mommies need help.

Economia is the basis for exceptions, not rules. Why can't the very back of the church be the youngest families, with babies and parents going back and forth as necessary?

The way I grew up (not Orthodox, just a practical example), babies of 1 year old or so, of both sexes, tended to sit with fathers and infants with mothers. American fathers might not be able to pull that off (tragic if true), but it is just one example of how traditions aren't that irksome for traditional people.

I'm not even sure you need to designate places for families with young children and what not.  In my home parish, children generally stand at the front, teens and young adults in the middle, and older people in the back, males on one side and females on the other.  This isn't strictly enforced, but it generally holds true.  What I saw growing up was that parents of young children would either divide them by sex and take care of their half or they'd share the responsibility by taking turns regardless of the sex of the children.  Also, the people standing around you would've offered to help or been asked to help, whether or not they were related to you, because you are always standing together and people were more comfortable with one another.  There was a sense that the parish was a family and everyone helped everyone else, even when it came to childcare.  The familiarity and relationships this created lasted far beyond the few years you as a child stood with your parents as opposed to standing in the front with the other kids. 

Much of that seems to have been lost with this generation.  Everyone has his own family, regards it as an independent entity that just happens to attend this church, and strives to maintain that independence and avoid outside interference except when they seek it out from other like-minded independent entities that just happen to attend the same church.  The parishes feel less integrated.  People don't know each other.  Cliques form more easily.  Parish politics become more contentious.  There's less a sense that we are the one family of God gathered in a particular place and more a sense of the church as a sort of spiritual Walmart.  The heavy emphasis on individualism, the consumerist mentality, the disconnection from other human beings, etc., it's all a major problem which the Church should be helping to address by being itself but instead it's steadily infiltrating the Church. 

[TheTrisagion]

Now Mor has made me wish that our parish was gender segregated.

[Mor Ephrem]

Now Mor has made me wish that our parish was gender segregated.

We'd still be on the same side.   

[TheTrisagion]

Now Mor has made me wish that our parish was gender segregated.

We'd still be on the same side.   

That would be.... lovely. 

[augustin717]

Men stand before the Christ, women the Theotokos. It's an iconic tradition that's not special to Slavs. The U.S. is just a bit messed up, and not only in this way. Greeks in the U.S. just weren't pious until rather recently -- they came to North America in large numbers starting in the '20s but barely even bothered to have churches until decades later. Most came with a secular, material outlook and the apostasy continues in some degree, in my opinion.

Ha! ITS not as simple as straightfirward as that trust me.  The older tradition at least among the Eastern European Byzantines was women at the back separated from the men in the front by a low fence/wall.  But since going go liturgy is also, by tradition mostly a women's business,   there were some women spilling over the fence. . But their place was at the back, architecturally delineated

[Porter ODoran]

Mommies need help.

Economia is the basis for exceptions, not rules. Why can't the very back of the church be the youngest families, with babies and parents going back and forth as necessary?

The way I grew up (not Orthodox, just a practical example), babies of 1 year old or so, of both sexes, tended to sit with fathers and infants with mothers. American fathers might not be able to pull that off (tragic if true), but it is just one example of how traditions aren't that irksome for traditional people.

I'm not even sure you need to designate places for families with young children and what not.  In my home parish, children generally stand at the front, teens and young adults in the middle, and older people in the back, males on one side and females on the other.  This isn't strictly enforced, but it generally holds true.  What I saw growing up was that parents of young children would either divide them by sex and take care of their half or they'd share the responsibility by taking turns regardless of the sex of the children.  Also, the people standing around you would've offered to help or been asked to help, whether or not they were related to you, because you are always standing together and people were more comfortable with one another.  There was a sense that the parish was a family and everyone helped everyone else, even when it came to childcare.  The familiarity and relationships this created lasted far beyond the few years you as a child stood with your parents as opposed to standing in the front with the other kids. 

Much of that seems to have been lost with this generation.  Everyone has his own family, regards it as an independent entity that just happens to attend this church, and strives to maintain that independence and avoid outside interference except when they seek it out from other like-minded independent entities that just happen to attend the same church.  The parishes feel less integrated.  People don't know each other.  Cliques form more easily.  Parish politics become more contentious.  There's less a sense that we are the one family of God gathered in a particular place and more a sense of the church as a sort of spiritual Walmart.  The heavy emphasis on individualism, the consumerist mentality, the disconnection from other human beings, etc., it's all a major problem which the Church should be helping to address by being itself but instead it's steadily infiltrating the Church.

Truly lovely.

What we're witnessing is the withering of the human organism. I'd say dying, but I try to have more faith. Humankind has gone thru a lot of things, and God always has his plan.

[ZealousZeal]

Much of that seems to have been lost with this generation.  Everyone has his own family, regards it as an independent entity that just happens to attend this church, and strives to maintain that independence and avoid outside interference except when they seek it out from other like-minded independent entities that just happen to attend the same church.  The parishes feel less integrated.  People don't know each other.  Cliques form more easily.  Parish politics become more contentious.  There's less a sense that we are the one family of God gathered in a particular place and more a sense of the church as a sort of spiritual Walmart.  The heavy emphasis on individualism, the consumerist mentality, the disconnection from other human beings, etc., it's all a major problem which the Church should be helping to address by being itself but instead it's steadily infiltrating the Church.

Are you making observations about this generation in general? Or do you see this ^ as a result of desegregated parish standing?

[Hawkeye]

Men stand before the Christ, women the Theotokos. It's an iconic tradition that's not special to Slavs. The U.S. is just a bit messed up, and not only in this way. Greeks in the U.S. just weren't pious until rather recently -- they came to North America in large numbers starting in the '20s but barely even bothered to have churches until decades later. Most came with a secular, material outlook and the apostasy continues in some degree, in my opinion.

Ha! ITS not as simple as straightfirward as that trust me.  The older tradition at least among the Eastern European Byzantines was women at the back separated from the men in the front by a low fence/wall.  But since going go liturgy is also, by tradition mostly a women's business,   there were some women spilling over the fence. . But their place was at the back, architecturally delineated

It's the same among most, if not all, of the priestless Chapelist Old Believers in the Americas. No fence but men stand in front and women in the back. When my maternal grandfather was appointed the rector of his village church, he attempted to change it to women on one side and men on the other, believing it to be an older tradition. The idea didn't go over very well and they ousted him instead.

[augustin717]

^it was most likely a modernist, kinda hypocritical  impulse "separated but equal" . Whereas the ladies at the back was a more frank statement about their place in the church and society 😉
Anyhow this was a universal arrangement in all the older churches back home , it survives to this day but it's no longer universal . They recently dismantled the separation fence in the older church in my hometown and in the new one they never built one.

[minasoliman]

Men stand before the Christ, women the Theotokos. It's an iconic tradition that's not special to Slavs. The U.S. is just a bit messed up, and not only in this way. Greeks in the U.S. just weren't pious until rather recently -- they came to North America in large numbers starting in the '20s but barely even bothered to have churches until decades later. Most came with a secular, material outlook and the apostasy continues in some degree, in my opinion.

Ha! ITS not as simple as straightfirward as that trust me.  The older tradition at least among the Eastern European Byzantines was women at the back separated from the men in the front by a low fence/wall.  But since going go liturgy is also, by tradition mostly a women's business,   there were some women spilling over the fence. . But their place was at the back, architecturally delineated

It's the same among most, if not all, of the priestless Chapelist Old Believers in the Americas. No fence but men stand in front and women in the back. When my maternal grandfather was appointed the rector of his village church, he attempted to change it to women on one side and men on the other, believing it to be an older tradition. The idea didn't go over very well and they ousted him instead.

Your grandfather was right.  It is the oldest tradition we know.

[Alpo]

I'm in the USA, and I attend a Ukrainian parish...and we are NOT segregated. 

We used to be, with women standing on the left as you enter, and men on the right.

However, over the years many young families have joined, and the parents wish to tend to their young children together.

Today, we stand wherever we like.

I am witnessing this transition occurring in an Indian parish and it makes me sad.

I can think up possible reasons, but rather than presume... why do you feel that way?

Related to this, I think it's helpful in modeling the faith for future generations.  Young men and boys standing on the men's side of a church are surrounded by and observe older men while they pray and worship, are perhaps even guided by these men in how to conduct themselves during the services, etc.  They learn how to be Christian men by spending time with Christian men.  The same can be said for young women and girls worshiping in the midst of older women. 

Writing from a plane so just a quick remark. I find this rather ad hoc argument for already established position. Holiness is not gender-specific.

[Αριστοκλής]

From what I understand most Slavic Orthodox churches have Gender seperation, as opposed to most Greek Orthodox Churches, from my limited experience.

In the USA for sure, but not in Greece.

I'm in the USA, and I attend a Ukrainian parish...and we are NOT segregated. 

We used to be, with women standing on the left as you enter, and men on the right.

However, over the years many young families have joined, and the parents wish to tend to their young children together.

Today, we stand wherever we like.

Was referring to the Greeks.

[Mor Ephrem]

Much of that seems to have been lost with this generation.  Everyone has his own family, regards it as an independent entity that just happens to attend this church, and strives to maintain that independence and avoid outside interference except when they seek it out from other like-minded independent entities that just happen to attend the same church.  The parishes feel less integrated.  People don't know each other.  Cliques form more easily.  Parish politics become more contentious.  There's less a sense that we are the one family of God gathered in a particular place and more a sense of the church as a sort of spiritual Walmart.  The heavy emphasis on individualism, the consumerist mentality, the disconnection from other human beings, etc., it's all a major problem which the Church should be helping to address by being itself but instead it's steadily infiltrating the Church.

Are you making observations about this generation in general? Or do you see this ^ as a result of desegregated parish standing?

In the particular case I had in mind, I think desegregation is more of an effect than a cause.  That said, it's hard for me to see how it will help improve the situation rather than canonising it. 

[Mor Ephrem]

I'm in the USA, and I attend a Ukrainian parish...and we are NOT segregated. 

We used to be, with women standing on the left as you enter, and men on the right.

However, over the years many young families have joined, and the parents wish to tend to their young children together.

Today, we stand wherever we like.

I am witnessing this transition occurring in an Indian parish and it makes me sad.

I can think up possible reasons, but rather than presume... why do you feel that way?

Related to this, I think it's helpful in modeling the faith for future generations.  Young men and boys standing on the men's side of a church are surrounded by and observe older men while they pray and worship, are perhaps even guided by these men in how to conduct themselves during the services, etc.  They learn how to be Christian men by spending time with Christian men.  The same can be said for young women and girls worshiping in the midst of older women. 

Writing from a plane so just a quick remark. I find this rather ad hoc argument for already established position. Holiness is not gender-specific.

Holiness is not gender specific, but we remain men and women as we are sanctified, and so how we live that out will often reflect that difference, even if it is also at times transcended. 

Anyway, what you quoted had less to do with "holiness" than upbringing, at least as I intended it. 

[Dominika]

Men stand before the Christ, women the Theotokos. It's an iconic tradition that's not special to Slavs. The U.S. is just a bit messed up, and not only in this way. Greeks in the U.S. just weren't pious until rather recently -- they came to North America in large numbers starting in the '20s but barely even bothered to have churches until decades later. Most came with a secular, material outlook and the apostasy continues in some degree, in my opinion.

Ha! ITS not as simple as straightfirward as that trust me.  The older tradition at least among the Eastern European Byzantines was women at the back separated from the men in the front by a low fence/wall.  But since going go liturgy is also, by tradition mostly a women's business,   there were some women spilling over the fence. . But their place was at the back, architecturally delineated

It's the same among most, if not all, of the priestless Chapelist Old Believers in the Americas. No fence but men stand in front and women in the back. When my maternal grandfather was appointed the rector of his village church, he attempted to change it to women on one side and men on the other, believing it to be an older tradition. The idea didn't go over very well and they ousted him instead.

Your grandfather was right.  It is the oldest tradition we know.

So our ancestors weren't aware of the fact that men doing bows in front of women may be distracting

[Mor Ephrem]

Men stand before the Christ, women the Theotokos. It's an iconic tradition that's not special to Slavs. The U.S. is just a bit messed up, and not only in this way. Greeks in the U.S. just weren't pious until rather recently -- they came to North America in large numbers starting in the '20s but barely even bothered to have churches until decades later. Most came with a secular, material outlook and the apostasy continues in some degree, in my opinion.

Ha! ITS not as simple as straightfirward as that trust me.  The older tradition at least among the Eastern European Byzantines was women at the back separated from the men in the front by a low fence/wall.  But since going go liturgy is also, by tradition mostly a women's business,   there were some women spilling over the fence. . But their place was at the back, architecturally delineated

It's the same among most, if not all, of the priestless Chapelist Old Believers in the Americas. No fence but men stand in front and women in the back. When my maternal grandfather was appointed the rector of his village church, he attempted to change it to women on one side and men on the other, believing it to be an older tradition. The idea didn't go over very well and they ousted him instead.

Your grandfather was right.  It is the oldest tradition we know.

So our ancestors weren't aware of the fact that men doing bows in front of women may be distracting

Maybe they thought men were too ugly to be a temptation to women.   

[Porter ODoran]

^it was most likely a modernist, kinda hypocritical  impulse "separated but equal" . Whereas the ladies at the back was a more frank statement about their place in the church and society 😉

This kind of thinking is close to an idea that God did injustice to produce man in different states and kinds. Even in our society, which holds as a goal to level all, children are not the same as adults, teachers as students, bosses as employees. St. Paul said it not possible that man should not be arranged and ordered, and that he who tries to defy this simply fights the God of nature and dooms himself. Traditionally in liturgy the children kissed other children, women other women, men men, the ordained the ordained, and perhaps elders and aristocrats were similarly segregated. I assume standing arrangements were based on a similar idea. That matters of that sort should be disposed so as to reflect the facts of man's arrangements in this life seems natural and proper enough.

[augustin717]

When Adam delved and Eve span,
Who was then the gentleman?

[Porter ODoran]

When Adam delved and Eve span,
Who was then the gentleman?

Not, When Adam delved and Eve span, who was then the man?

[augustin717]

Well that too. Genesis is kinda ambiguous with those two different narratives.

[MariaJLM]

Not at all. I'm in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada and every service I've been to has been mixed. Things may be different in Ukraine itself, though, as it's Moscow Patriarchate. They have a reputation for being quite conservative.