Author Topic: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!  (Read 6222 times)

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Offline Samn!

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What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« on: February 10, 2017, 05:04:17 PM »
Today the Holy Synod of the Syriac Orthodox Church released a statement [in Arabic here: http://syrian-orthodox.com/readnews.php?id=2915 ] condemning a previous statement by six bishops-- Mor Eustathius Matta Ruham, Mor Clemis Eugene Kaplan, Mor Severus Melke Mourad, Mor Meletius Malke Lahdo, Mor Severus Hazail Sawmi, Mor Bartholomaios Nathaniel Joseph-- and all but excommunicated them and declared any ordinations they may perform to be invalid. Those six had just issued a statement [in Arabic here: https://www.facebook.com/299287430235866/photos/pb.299287430235866.-2207520000.1486758881./776824359148835/?type=3&theater -I couldn't find a better source, sorry for the Facebook] that seems to condemn their patriarch in quite harsh terms for unspecified statements he's made over the past couple months and basically declaring their independence from him.

What brought this about?!

« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 05:11:27 PM by Samn! »

Offline minasoliman

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2017, 05:15:29 PM »
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Offline Samn!

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2017, 06:34:18 PM »
What seems to be an official English version of the Synod's statement can be found here:

http://www.ankawa.com/forum/index.php?topic=832115.msg7513089#msg7513089

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2017, 06:41:30 PM »
What brought this about?!

I've been trying to figure that out myself. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline minasoliman

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2017, 07:02:30 PM »
Today the Holy Synod of the Syriac Orthodox Church released a statement [in Arabic here: http://syrian-orthodox.com/readnews.php?id=2915 ] condemning a previous statement by six bishops-- Mor Eustathius Matta Ruham, Mor Clemis Eugene Kaplan, Mor Severus Melke Mourad, Mor Meletius Malke Lahdo, Mor Severus Hazail Sawmi, Mor Bartholomaios Nathaniel Joseph-- and all but excommunicated them and declared any ordinations they may perform to be invalid. Those six had just issued a statement [in Arabic here: https://www.facebook.com/299287430235866/photos/pb.299287430235866.-2207520000.1486758881./776824359148835/?type=3&theater -I couldn't find a better source, sorry for the Facebook] that seems to condemn their patriarch in quite harsh terms for unspecified statements he's made over the past couple months and basically declaring their independence from him.

What brought this about?!

I'm starting to get a sense from the Facebook photos that it has more do to with moral and political accusations than theological?
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2017, 07:32:05 PM »
Today the Holy Synod of the Syriac Orthodox Church released a statement [in Arabic here: http://syrian-orthodox.com/readnews.php?id=2915 ] condemning a previous statement by six bishops-- Mor Eustathius Matta Ruham, Mor Clemis Eugene Kaplan, Mor Severus Melke Mourad, Mor Meletius Malke Lahdo, Mor Severus Hazail Sawmi, Mor Bartholomaios Nathaniel Joseph-- and all but excommunicated them and declared any ordinations they may perform to be invalid. Those six had just issued a statement [in Arabic here: https://www.facebook.com/299287430235866/photos/pb.299287430235866.-2207520000.1486758881./776824359148835/?type=3&theater -I couldn't find a better source, sorry for the Facebook] that seems to condemn their patriarch in quite harsh terms for unspecified statements he's made over the past couple months and basically declaring their independence from him.

What brought this about?!

I'm starting to get a sense from the Facebook photos that it has more do to with moral and political accusations than theological?

Well, I don't know Arabic, and Google Translate or whatever FB uses isn't so great, but I get the sense that at least some of it is theological.  For example, there appear to be videos of HH the Patriarch venerating a Quran and speaking well of "the Prophet Muhammad".  Also, I'm led to believe by some sources known to me IRL that at least one of the six bishops in this group was a/the chief rival for the patriarchate in the last election, so there's also that. 
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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2017, 08:17:31 PM »
Well, I don't know Arabic, and Google Translate or whatever FB uses isn't so great, but I get the sense that at least some of it is theological.  For example, there appear to be videos of HH the Patriarch venerating a Quran and speaking well of "the Prophet Muhammad".  Also, I'm led to believe by some sources known to me IRL that at least one of the six bishops in this group was a/the chief rival for the patriarchate in the last election, so there's also that.
The EO Antiochian Metropolitan of Brazil has celebrated the Hijra with Muslims too... Stockholm syndrome maybe? I wonder if they actually represent Arab Orthodox in any sense having that approach. I hope not.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 08:28:37 PM by RaphaCam »
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2017, 12:28:02 AM »
Quote
speaking well of "the Prophet Muhammad".
The EO Antiochian Metropolitan of Brazil has celebrated the Hijra with Muslims too... Stockholm syndrome maybe? I wonder if they actually represent Arab Orthodox in any sense having that approach. I hope not.
I remember Bishop Atallah Hannah, a leading EO bishop in the C.o.J., speaking positively about Mohammed, at least in passing.
He is also in a gathering against cartoons maligning Mohammed.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 12:28:42 AM by rakovsky »
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Offline Samn!

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2017, 04:42:15 AM »
Okay, so having had the time to read more, it seems that the statements over Christmas by the patriarch that angered the six bishops are, in a nutshell, his saying that the joy of the liberation of Aleppo overshadowed even the joy of Christmas and the birthday of Muhammad (which almost coincided this year), saying things that sounded to them like putting those two holidays on equal footing, and then saying that "the Prophet Muhammad came for the sake of humankind," apparently when congratulating Muslims on their feast, and an earlier incident where he seemed to venerate a Qur'an.

Behind all that, though, are conflicts with the bishops of Belgium and Jazira that I'm not in a position to untangle.

Offline dhinuus

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2017, 02:40:52 PM »
The six bishops who have raised the allegation that the Patriarch has abandoned the Orthodox faith, by venerating the Quran and stating that Muhammed is a messenger of God; are meeting with the Patriarch on Thursday, Feb 16 in Germany.  Both sides will have an opportunity to raise their points and provide clarifications.  Let us hope and pray for reconciliation. I pray for repentance and forgiveness from all sides.

I sincerely hope that at some point in the future the Synod will meet and establish "Archdiocese" in place of the "Patriarchal Vicariates" in  Europe and confirm the General Bishops serving as "Patriarchal Vicars" as "Metropolitan - Archbishops".  While I understand the logic of establishing "Patriarchal Vicarates" in the territory outside of the historical territory of the Patriarchate of the Antioch to cater to the need of the immigrants to Europe; having too many Bishops serve as Patriarchal Vicars rather than "Metropolitan Archbishops" over an "Archdiocese" is not healthy for conciliarism.
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2017, 05:24:10 PM »
Let us hope and pray for reconciliation. I pray for repentance and forgiveness from all sides.

Lord, have mercy.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2017, 05:35:24 PM »
The six bishops who have raised the allegation that the Patriarch has abandoned the Orthodox faith, by venerating the Quran and stating that Muhammed is a messenger of God; are meeting with the Patriarch on Thursday, Feb 16 in Germany.  Both sides will have an opportunity to raise their points and provide clarifications.  Let us hope and pray for reconciliation. I pray for repentance and forgiveness from all sides.

I sincerely hope that at some point in the future the Synod will meet and establish "Archdiocese" in place of the "Patriarchal Vicariates" in  Europe and confirm the General Bishops serving as "Patriarchal Vicars" as "Metropolitan - Archbishops".  While I understand the logic of establishing "Patriarchal Vicarates" in the territory outside of the historical territory of the Patriarchate of the Antioch to cater to the need of the immigrants to Europe; having too many Bishops serve as Patriarchal Vicars rather than "Metropolitan Archbishops" over an "Archdiocese" is not healthy for conciliarism.

I'm glad you are reading this.  I wanted to get your thoughts on this article.  I can't vouch for the quality of the site's journalism or specifically about the story except to say that, at least in broad strokes, it matches some things I've been hearing in church circles (at least some of which I can vouch for).
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline minasoliman

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2017, 05:56:06 PM »
It seems to me the issue here is His Holiness Mor Ignatius Ephram seems to be cornered to do or say things in a sociopolitical environment, unable to be prepared with his words and actions like a smart diplomat.  This is an issue the Coptic Church went through for quite some time, since we can even document these events and interactions with Muslims.  I wouldn't accuse His Holiness of heresy, but, if what they say is true, of an inability to handle diplomatic relations with Muslims with shrewdness.

Sometimes, you have two faces, one of political correctness in front of the camera, and one behind closed doors of actual Orthodox views, which if shared publicly, could lead to animosity among the people themselves.  A patriarch has to be mindful pastorally that whatever he says and does can have an impact on his people.

I wonder therefore if this is something that the Syrian Church is struggling with, because I think we as Copts are very familiar with this in our present Pope, who at times, I wish he would hire a "secretary deacon of the Press" who can better handle the media.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 05:56:36 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline wgw

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2017, 06:14:12 PM »
Mor Clemis Eugene Kaplan is my bishop, so naturally I find this apparent event alarming.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline minasoliman

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2017, 06:19:57 PM »
I sincerely hope that at some point in the future the Synod will meet and establish "Archdiocese" in place of the "Patriarchal Vicariates" in  Europe and confirm the General Bishops serving as "Patriarchal Vicars" as "Metropolitan - Archbishops".  While I understand the logic of establishing "Patriarchal Vicarates" in the territory outside of the historical territory of the Patriarchate of the Antioch to cater to the need of the immigrants to Europe; having too many Bishops serve as Patriarchal Vicars rather than "Metropolitan Archbishops" over an "Archdiocese" is not healthy for conciliarism.

I generally agree with this.  However, the Syrian Church alone does not suffer from this issue.  I think pretty much every Orthodox Church now seems to have a structure that includes vicar/exarch bishops or auxiliary bishops, which has become quite rampant in the episcopal structure of the Church these days.

When the institution of "general bishops" was first introduced by Pope St. Kyrillos VI, he did not allow them to be part of the Synod.  This was overturned by HH Pope Shenouda III, who allowed general bishops to be equal voting members of the Synod.  However, this also lead to a multiplication of general bishops in the Synod, and indirectly, and more powerful voting power in favor of the Pope, sometimes unchecked.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 06:21:24 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2017, 08:10:28 PM »
Quote
Statement by Malphone and Academics of the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch on the Current Episcopal Crisis

February 12, 2017
Sunday of the Departed Priests

(Text attached in image format...)

Text Vesion:
Statement by Malphone and Academics of the
Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch
on the Current Episcopal Crisis

February 12, 2017
Sunday of the Departed Priests

WHEREAS on February 8, 2017, six (6) bishops of the Syriac Orthodox Church (hereinafter, “the Six Bishops”) issued a statement in which they alleged that His Holiness Mor Ignatius Aphrem II, Syriac Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch and All the East, has transgressed the Orthodox faith and, in the same said statement, the Six Bishops announced that they will administer their respective dioceses independently of the Patriarchate and, more dangerously, threatened to ordain parallel bishops to all the dioceses of the Church causing a lasting division; and

WHEREAS on February 10, 2017, thirty (30) members (i.e. bishops) of the Syriac Orthodox Holy Synod issued a statement in which they expressed their “utter condemnation and absolute rejection” of the February 8 statement by the Six Bishops, calling upon the Six Bishops to “return from their deviation”; and

WHEREAS on Sunday February 12, 2017, which happens to be the Commemoration of the Departed Priests, many Churches, at the request of His Holiness Mor Ignatius Aphrem II, offered a special prayer for peace in the Church; and
WHEREAS at the dawn of the twenty-first century, the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch has the vast majority of its faithful and dioceses in the diaspora, a state-of-affairs that calls for the involvement of the laity in the administrative affairs of the Church; therefore:

We the undersigned, Malphone and Academics who are—independent of our academic affiliations—faithful practicing members of the Syriac Orthodox Church,

1. Proclaim that His Holiness Mor Ignatius Aphrem II is the legitimate Patriarch of Antioch and All the East and we place no doubt in his Orthodox faith.

2. Pay allegiance, as individuals and as a group, to His Holiness the Patriarch and to the Holy Synod of the Holy Church of Antioch.

3. Call upon the Six Bishops to go back to the Holy Synod which is the legal venue where bishops can express any concerns they may have, withdrawing their original statement of February 8. We further call upon all the members (i.e. bishops) of the Holy Synod to mediate and ensure an amicable resolution.

As academics and historians, we would like to remind all involved and warn that if, God forbid, an ecclesiastical division takes place, its lasting effects will be disastrous, especially in light of the current political situation in the Middle East and the fragility of our existence in the diaspora. We know from history that such divisions take centuries to heal. Therefore, it is of the utmost responsibility of every single bishop to ensure that no such division takes place and to realize that such a division would not be tolerated by the laity—from all walks of life—as illustrated by the strong reaction of the faithful on social media during the past few days who expressed their allegiance to and their love for the Holy See of Antioch.

Further, we call upon our Holy Synod to expedite the current plan of His Holiness Mor Ignatius Aphrem II to involve selected laity from each diocese in the Holy Synod in order to diversify its members and help in its administration along the model of many Churches worldwide.

We pray to God Almighty for the unity of the Holy Church through the intercessions of the Holy Virgin, Yoldath Aloho, and All the Saints.

Naures Atto (Ph.D., Leiden University), Postdoc at the University of Cambridge
Gabriel Barsawme (M.A., Princeton Theological Seminary), Adjunct at Sankt Ignatios Theological Academy & PhD candidate at University of Uppsala
Khalid Dinno (Ph.D., University of Toronto)
Ephrem Ishac (Ph.D, Holy Spirit University of Kaslik), Senior Postdoc Researcher (University of Graz) & Lecturer in Syriac
Liturgical Theology (Salzburg).
Andreas bar Walter Juckel (Ph.D., University of Bonn), Research Associate at the Institute for New Testament Textual Research, University of Münster
Christine I. Kiraz (Ph.D, Rutgers University), Assistant Teaching Professor, Rutgers University
George A. Kiraz (Ph.D., University of Cambridge), Visiting Research Fellow, Rutgers University & Director of Beth Mardutho: The Syriac Institute
Pierre Khoury (Ph.D., Stanford University), Professor of Electrical Engineering, Stanford University
Gabriel Rabo (Dr. des. Theol., University of Göttingen), Senior Scientist, University of Salzburg & Research Associate, University of Eichstätt
Abdulmasih Saadi (Ph.D., University of Chicago), Assistant Professor in Arabic, Baylor University
Aho Shimunkasho (Ph.D, University of Oxford), Professor for Orthodox Syriac Ecclesiastical History and Theology (University of Salzburg)
Shabo Talay, (Ph.D., University of Heidelberg), Professor of Semitic Studies & Director of Seminar for Semitic and Arabic Studies, Freie Universität, Berlin.

P.S. Due to the urgency of the matter, we apologize if we were not able to connect with more Malphone and Academics. We have no intention to exclude anyone.

https://www.facebook.com/george.kiraz/posts/1323677714357221
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Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2017, 08:20:41 PM »
Quote
Dear spiritual priests, parish, council members, and believers of the Archdiocese of Western United States.

After sending you our apostolic blessings, prayers, and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ, I would like to inform you that His Holiness, Patriarch Mor Ignatius Aphrem II [= His Holiness Patriarch Mor Ignatius Aphrem II], the Patriarch of the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch, will visit our Diocese in Germany next week to attend a church ceremony. And with mediation of some priests and parishes from Germany, a meeting is planned for fraternal reconciliation between our beloved Patriarch and his brethren Archbishops.

Accordingly, I will travel to Germany to meet His Holiness and we will work together for the peace of our church. And we are full of hope to reach a solution that satisfies God and brings relief to the believers in our church.

This is necessary and a must. The grace [of our Lord Jesus Christ] is with you.

Metropolitan Clemis Augin Kaplan

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10212488645677000&set=pcb.1400245833354172&type=3&theater
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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline wgw

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2017, 08:22:59 PM »
That is most ressuring.

Btw Mor I find myself dismayed at the prospect of including laity in the Holy Synod.  What do you think?

Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2017, 08:25:05 PM »
That is most ressuring.

Btw Mor I find myself dismayed at the prospect of including laity in the Holy Synod.  What do you think?

Depends on what they mean by that. 
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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline dhinuus

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2017, 11:09:01 PM »
I'm glad you are reading this.  I wanted to get your thoughts on this article.  I can't vouch for the quality of the site's journalism or specifically about the story except to say that, at least in broad strokes, it matches some things I've been hearing in church circles (at least some of which I can vouch for).

Atleast that is the not public position of H.B the Catholicose. Press release by the Malankara Synod

I doubt that the Malankara team is behind this. This is very much internal to the middle easterners in the church.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 11:13:20 PM by dhinuus »
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Offline dhinuus

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2017, 11:15:55 PM »
In this sermon the Patriarch gives the context and reason for him elevating the Quran , which has been interpreted as he venerating the Quran.
https://www.facebook.com/148731735158989/videos/1403935602971923/
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2017, 11:22:14 PM »
In this sermon the Patriarch gives the context and reason for him elevating the Quran , which has been interpreted as he venerating the Quran.
https://www.facebook.com/148731735158989/videos/1403935602971923/

An honest question to His Holiness:  does loving our enemies include burning incense for our enemies' gods?
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Offline Suryoyutho

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2017, 04:04:24 AM »
Most of these bishops had other problems with H.H. from before, and I think they used something "theological" as an excuse to protest.

Mor Eustathius Matta Ruham fled Syria to Austria when the war broke out, leaving his diocese illegally. Many laypeople in the Church wanted him retired as a bishop but the Holy Synod gave him six months to return to his diocese in 2015 but he never did so and in 2016 the patriarchate deprived him of his bishopric in Syria.

Mor Clemis Eugene Kaplan banned a local priest in California, who together with around 350 families left the Church for the Malankara Church (this because the priest criticized Mor Clemis for some money scandal). H.H. has since allowed the parish to become members of the Church again (I don't think bishop Augin liked this).

Mor Severus Hazail Sawmi has been criticized in the past and not very liked by his diocese (Belgium), but the previous patriarch never acted. Bishop Hazail was made "bishop of EU" by H.H. and another bishop was put in Belgium/France/Luxemburg (but despite this bishop Hazail tried to ordain a priest recently in Belgium, http://syriacpatriarchate.org/2017/02/the-so-called-rev-yuhanon-aydin-is-not-a-priest-in-the-syriac-orthodox-church-and-his-so-called-ordination-is-void/).

I don't know what the six bishops were thinking though. They pretty much had to know that the people wouldn't get behind them. If some more "popular" bishops from some more "important" dioceses were among the six it could've been much worse but I pray for a resolution to this in the coming days.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2017, 10:04:05 AM »
I agree with the statement from the Malphone and Academics that Mor posted.  If these six bishops had a beef, the Holy Synod was the appropriate place to air their grievances.  The divisive public spectacle was ill-advised. 
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2017, 11:19:15 AM »

Mor Clemis Eugene Kaplan banned a local priest in California, who together with around 350 families left the Church for the Malankara Church (this because the priest criticized Mor Clemis for some money scandal). H.H. has since allowed the parish to become members of the Church again (I don't think bishop Augin liked this).


With good reason; that priest was treacherous, and had a vile and disgusting website where he hurled the most vitriolic and inappropriate abuse imaginable at the bishop and at HH Mor Ignatius Zakka Iwas of blessed memory.  The fact the priest led 350 families into schism is basically everything you need to know.  The issue had nothing to do with doctrine; it involved a purely political clash between the priest and the board of the cathedral parish.  The life of the bishop was furthermore threatened.

I also think it is rather a mark against the IOC that they received such a parish into their communion.  It is my main gripe with them (I think it was a petty and inappropriate action).

However, to my knowledge, there was no opposition from Mor Eugene Kaplan to the resolution of that schism.  Contrary to popular belief, he is actually a decent and dispassionate bishop, who has been in vicar of the archdiocese for over 20 years.

Now I also very much like the Patriarch, which is whynI am praying for this to be resolved.  I think the Patriarch made a mistake here, but it was a minor mistake, made for the right reasons, by someone who has otherwise been very good both as Patriarch and before that as a Patriarchal Vicar.

I do believe that the vicarious archbishops like Mor Eugene Kaplan should be installed in their dioceses; I am opposed to the proliferation of general bishops and Patriarchal vicars in the OO church.
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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2017, 01:37:31 PM »
I agree with the statement from the Malphone and Academics that Mor posted.  If these six bishops had a beef, the Holy Synod was the appropriate place to air their grievances.  The divisive public spectacle was ill-advised.

While I agree, the latest sound bite of His Holiness also puts some blame on His Holiness.  It is very scandalizing to hear that we can kiss the Quran on the basis of loving our enemies.  That is a dangerous precedent to set in homilies, dare I say, a deviation from our Orthodox traditions.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 01:39:59 PM by minasoliman »
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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2017, 01:48:25 PM »
I agree with the statement from the Malphone and Academics that Mor posted.  If these six bishops had a beef, the Holy Synod was the appropriate place to air their grievances.  The divisive public spectacle was ill-advised.

While I agree, the latest sound bite of His Holiness also puts some blame on His Holiness.  It is very scandalizing to hear that we can kiss the Quran on the basis of loving our enemies.  That is a dangerous precedent to set in homilies, dare I say, a deviation from our Orthodox traditions.
The Roman martyrs might as well have kissed statues of the emperors on the same basis.
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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2017, 02:08:19 PM »
I agree with the statement from the Malphone and Academics that Mor posted.  If these six bishops had a beef, the Holy Synod was the appropriate place to air their grievances.  The divisive public spectacle was ill-advised.

While I agree, the latest sound bite of His Holiness also puts some blame on His Holiness.  It is very scandalizing to hear that we can kiss the Quran on the basis of loving our enemies.  That is a dangerous precedent to set in homilies, dare I say, a deviation from our Orthodox traditions.

Did he say he kissed it, Mina?  All I heard him say in the audio clip was that he visited a mosque that had been destroyed by terrorists in Aleppo and there held up a copy of the Quran.  I didn't hear him say he venerated it.  Based on what His Holiness said in the clip, it seems that he was just showing solidarity and respect with the moderate Muslim community.  If he venerated it, that's another matter, but unless I missed something, I didn't hear that in the audio.  It's not like he was teaching from the Quran either.  Meanwhile, we have Coptic bishops who have implemented the Pentecostal Alpha Course in their entire jurisdiction and there are still priests and servants teaching from Rick Warren's heterodox books all over the Lands of Immigration.  Where is the hue and cry about that?  Where is anyone - other than laymen on the internet - saying that such things shouldn't be taking place?  To me, actively teaching Orthodox Christians the heresies of Pentecostalism or Evangelicalism is worse than any symbolic gesture involving a Quran.  Yet and still, I'd prefer that the bishops and priests who are leading people astray in such a fashion be handled in-house by the Holy Synod rather than by a self-appointed jury of six disgruntled bishops condemning their father - who lives in personal danger every day - from the safety of the Diaspora.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2017, 02:25:48 PM »
Oh sorry...he didn't kiss the Quran.  He "held the Quran and raised it up" in the presence of people in a mosque in Aleppo.  I'm not sure what that means.  But your point is valid, although I wouldn't say one is worse than the other.  Anything scandalizing needs to be discussed and avoided.
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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2017, 02:30:17 PM »
I agree with the statement from the Malphone and Academics that Mor posted.  If these six bishops had a beef, the Holy Synod was the appropriate place to air their grievances.  The divisive public spectacle was ill-advised.

While I agree, the latest sound bite of His Holiness also puts some blame on His Holiness.  It is very scandalizing to hear that we can kiss the Quran on the basis of loving our enemies.  That is a dangerous precedent to set in homilies, dare I say, a deviation from our Orthodox traditions.

Did he say he kissed it, Mina?  All I heard him say in the audio clip was that he visited a mosque that had been destroyed by terrorists in Aleppo and there held up a copy of the Quran.  I didn't hear him say he venerated it.  Based on what His Holiness said in the clip, it seems that he was just showing solidarity and respect with the moderate Muslim community.  If he venerated it, that's another matter, but unless I missed something, I didn't hear that in the audio. 



The action is clearer in the video, but I can no longer find it (the FB account where I viewed it seems to have taken it down).  He is offered the Quran, takes it into his hands, brings it up to his forehead with a sort of inclination of the head, and hands it back. 

Is it a kiss?  Technically, the video is inconclusive.  Is it a form of veneration?  Well, what His Holiness appears to be doing is the same procedure used by clerics and laymen to venerate the Gospel book and other holy objects: some kiss, others press their forehead to the venerated object.       
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2017, 02:35:01 PM »
I'm glad you are reading this.  I wanted to get your thoughts on this article.  I can't vouch for the quality of the site's journalism or specifically about the story except to say that, at least in broad strokes, it matches some things I've been hearing in church circles (at least some of which I can vouch for).

Atleast that is the not public position of H.B the Catholicose. Press release by the Malankara Synod

I doubt that the Malankara team is behind this. This is very much internal to the middle easterners in the church.

Thanks, very helpful!
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2017, 02:42:40 PM »
I also think it is rather a mark against the IOC that they received such a parish into their communion.  It is my main gripe with them (I think it was a petty and inappropriate action).

You need to invest in more serious gripes. 

The bishop which received that parish into his jurisdiction as a "mission" in America was a bishop who was originally a bishop of the Syriac Church in India and switched sides to join ours.  It was their familiarity with him that led them to approach him and not, for example, either of the two bishops of our Church in America. 

I have mixed feelings about that entire situation, but concelebrating the Eucharistic Liturgy with Catholics and patriarchs venerating Qurans are worse. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2017, 02:52:45 PM »
I agree with the statement from the Malphone and Academics that Mor posted.  If these six bishops had a beef, the Holy Synod was the appropriate place to air their grievances.  The divisive public spectacle was ill-advised.

While I agree, the latest sound bite of His Holiness also puts some blame on His Holiness.  It is very scandalizing to hear that we can kiss the Quran on the basis of loving our enemies.  That is a dangerous precedent to set in homilies, dare I say, a deviation from our Orthodox traditions.
The Roman martyrs might as well have kissed statues of the emperors on the same basis.

I think it's a stretch to say that His Holiness advocated kissing the Quran on the basis of loving one's enemies.  I never heard any such thing in the audio clip linked to in this thread, and I'd need more evidence before making such a statement.    At the most, he said to respect things that others find holy in order that you do not offend them.  Would you take off your shoes upon entering a Buddhist or Hindu temple?  How about a mosque?

Speaking of Roman statues, for consistency's sake, would you condemn the Orthodox Christian priests who participated - at St. Constantine's command - along with their pagan counterparts in the of blessing of Constantinople in May of 330 AD?  Who processed into the city carrying baskets containing crumbs from the baskets filled by Our Lord with loaves and fishes, a piece of the cross of St. Demas, the alabaster jar which held the oil St. Mary Magdelene had anointed Our Lord's head and feet with, and the axe Noah hewed the Ark with, alongside pagan priests bearing a statue of Pallas Athena (supposedly from Troy) that St. Constantine had brought from Rome?  The priests who buried these Christian relics at the foot of Constantine's Column - alongside the pagan Palladium - hallowing the ground for both?  Who chanted hymns as a piece of the True Cross was placed in the orb held by the statue of St. Constantine in the image of Apollo?  They were apparently "going along to get along" and ensure their tenuous, tolerated place in the new order.  I'm not at all comparing their blatantly inappropriate and blasphemous actions to anything His Holiness is accused of here.  God forbid.  But I am saying that His Holiness is trying to find a peaceful space with the moderate Muslims in order that the Church might survive in its cradle.  What he has done is no worse than, say, joining in an ecumenical prayer for "unity" with heterodox Christians.

I agree with the statement from the Malphone and Academics that Mor posted.  If these six bishops had a beef, the Holy Synod was the appropriate place to air their grievances.  The divisive public spectacle was ill-advised.

While I agree, the latest sound bite of His Holiness also puts some blame on His Holiness.  It is very scandalizing to hear that we can kiss the Quran on the basis of loving our enemies.  That is a dangerous precedent to set in homilies, dare I say, a deviation from our Orthodox traditions.

Did he say he kissed it, Mina?  All I heard him say in the audio clip was that he visited a mosque that had been destroyed by terrorists in Aleppo and there held up a copy of the Quran.  I didn't hear him say he venerated it.  Based on what His Holiness said in the clip, it seems that he was just showing solidarity and respect with the moderate Muslim community.  If he venerated it, that's another matter, but unless I missed something, I didn't hear that in the audio. 



The action is clearer in the video, but I can no longer find it (the FB account where I viewed it seems to have taken it down).  He is offered the Quran, takes it into his hands, brings it up to his forehead with a sort of inclination of the head, and hands it back. 

Is it a kiss?  Technically, the video is inconclusive.  Is it a form of veneration?  Well, what His Holiness appears to be doing is the same procedure used by clerics and laymen to venerate the Gospel book and other holy objects: some kiss, others press their forehead to the venerated object.       

Thank you for the photos, Mor.  I have no reason not to take His Holiness at his word.  I think if he had kissed it, he would have said he kissed it.  That said, I can see where people would be unhappy with him inclining his head to the book as if it were a holy thing.  You are of course right that pressing one's forehead to an object could be seen as a form of veneration.  That said, it could also simply be a spontaneous gesture meant to show that he found the gift to be precious and he was showing his appreciation for it.  I've seen my people from Mediterranean cultures - including family members - make such gestures - and even flat out kiss - inanimate objects with no religious connotations given to them as gifts to show that they treasure the gift and the sentiment behind it.  I'm not going to say this isn't problematic, and I certainly see where Mina is coming from.  I'm just saying, this seems to me to be an inconclusive gesture made in the space of a few seconds and doesn't constitute a systematic embrace of things Muslim equivalent to the systematic embrace of things heterodox I described in my previous post.  I think the Six Bishops are making hay here because they apparently have axes to grind.

Thanks, very helpful!

For those of us who don't read Malayalam, what is the gist of the two articles in that language linked to in this thread?  Are we to understand that H.B. the Catholicos has come out in support of H.H. the Patriarch?

concelebrating the Eucharistic Liturgy with Catholics

I'm afraid to ask, but details please?
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 02:59:35 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2017, 03:17:41 PM »
Thank you for the photos, Mor.  I have no reason not to take His Holiness at his word.  I think if he had kissed it, he would have said he kissed it. 

Why?  ISTM it's better for everyone if this is left ambiguous. 

Quote
That said, I can see where people would be unhappy with him inclining his head to the book as if it were a holy thing.  You are of course right that pressing one's forehead to an object could be seen as a form of veneration.  That said, it could also simply be a spontaneous gesture meant to show that he found the gift to be precious and he was showing his appreciation for it.  I've seen my people from Mediterranean cultures - including family members - make such gestures - and even flat out kiss - inanimate objects with no religious connotations given to them as gifts to show that they treasure the gift and the sentiment behind it.  I'm not going to say this isn't problematic, and I certainly see where Mina is coming from.  I'm just saying, this seems to me to be an inconclusive gesture made in the space of a few seconds and doesn't constitute a systematic embrace of things Muslim equivalent to the systematic embrace of things heterodox I described in my previous post.  I think the Six Bishops are making hay here because they apparently have axes to grind.

I agree with you and others who have suggested that this is being used as a "legitimate" grievance providing cover for more debatable ones.  But that doesn't mean there is nothing to see here.  I am all for giving Christians in the Middle East who, unlike us, live under the very real threat of being killed, a wide latitude in terms of how they relate with each other and with the non-Christian majority in the region.  But does this mean that anything goes?  Surely there are some limits?  Where is the line drawn? 

It would be beneficial to learn how Muslims would view this action.  How do they treat the physical book of the Quran?  How do they expect non-Muslims to treat the Quran?  If they saw a Christian cleric perform the action in the photo/video, what would they conclude from it?  Is it a courtesy they would offer to the Bible or other religion's scriptures?  Why or why not? 


Quote
Thanks, very helpful!

For those of us who don't read Malayalam, what is the gist of the two articles in that language linked to in this thread?  Are we to understand that H.B. the Catholicos has come out in support of H.H. the Patriarch?

Yes.  Basically, they declare that they do not accept the actions of the six bishops, that unity is above all what is required at a time when the Middle East and particularly Syria are undergoing such turbulence, that the local synod of their Church in India stands with the Patriarch, and that the secretary of the synod will travel to Syria to meet with the Patriarch. 

Quote
concelebrating the Eucharistic Liturgy with Catholics

I'm afraid to ask, but details please?

I've documented it in the Private Forum before, but unless someone beats me to it here, it will have to wait until next week, as I travel to Chicago tonight. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2017, 04:26:07 PM »
Why? 

I think he's a straight shooter.  I don't think he'd be deliberately vague.

ISTM it's better for everyone if this is left ambiguous. 

Perhaps.  Like I said though, I don't think that's his style.

I agree with you and others who have suggested that this is being used as a "legitimate" grievance providing cover for more debatable ones.  But that doesn't mean there is nothing to see here.  I am all for giving Christians in the Middle East who, unlike us, live under the very real threat of being killed, a wide latitude in terms of how they relate with each other and with the non-Christian majority in the region.  But does this mean that anything goes?  Surely there are some limits?  Where is the line drawn? 

I agree.  There must be limits.  Please see my posts about some of the unfortunate statements made by Oriental Orthodox prelates of the presently suffering communities in the Middle East as it pertains to unity with their Eastern Catholic neighbors.  I think where the line is drawn is a subject we could debate all day and for which we might never find an answer.  "The ecumenism of blood..." and all that.  Still, I'm not sure that a one-off gesture which could be interpreted in a variety of ways - some of which are more cultural than religious in their significance - is enough to hang this Patriarch on.  Especially when he's not been one of the folks given to extreme ecumenical statements in the past.

It would be beneficial to learn how Muslims would view this action.  How do they treat the physical book of the Quran?  How do they expect non-Muslims to treat the Quran?  If they saw a Christian cleric perform the action in the photo/video, what would they conclude from it?  Is it a courtesy they would offer to the Bible or other religion's scriptures?  Why or why not? 

Agreed!  I'd love some insight on this aspect of the discussion.


For those of us who don't read Yes.  Basically, they declare that they do not accept the actions of the six bishops, that unity is above all what is required at a time when the Middle East and particularly Syria are undergoing such turbulence, that the local synod of their Church in India stands with the Patriarch, and that the secretary of the synod will travel to Syria to meet with the Patriarch.

Nice. 

I've documented it in the Private Forum before, but unless someone beats me to it here, it will have to wait until next week, as I travel to Chicago tonight.

I'd be much appreciative if you could either pm me or send me a link to the discussion in the private forum.  Safe travels.  :)
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2017, 06:13:22 PM »
I also think it is rather a mark against the IOC that they received such a parish into their communion.  It is my main gripe with them (I think it was a petty and inappropriate action).

You need to invest in more serious gripes. 

The bishop which received that parish into his jurisdiction as a "mission" in America was a bishop who was originally a bishop of the Syriac Church in India and switched sides to join ours.  It was their familiarity with him that led them to approach him and not, for example, either of the two bishops of our Church in America. 

I have mixed feelings about that entire situation, but concelebrating the Eucharistic Liturgy with Catholics and patriarchs venerating Qurans are worse.

I have no problems with our bishops concelebrating with Catholics; what we need is a restoration of full communion as quickly as possible, and this facilitates that.  I reject outright as fundamentally misguided the view espoused by the Ecumenical Patriarch that Catholics are ontologically different.  The only reason to not concelebrate with Catholics is to avoid interfering with OO internal relations and also the process of EO-OO reconciliation, although OO-RC reunion without the EOs would be preferrable to the status quo.  Indeed an internal schism of up to 15% would be acceptable to accomplish either OO-EO or OO-RC communion.

Conversely, venerating the Quran is a problem, but I am not prepared to criticize the Patriarch over this issue.  Nor, conversely, am I prepared to criticize my bishop for objecting to it. 

I am probably the most pro-ecumenical OO on this forum, I would note; the reason for this is I believe the RCC is on the precipice of a degeneration which would make the restoration of communion impossible, but if communion is restored, the fear of that communion being ruptured could be used to manipulate liberal Roman bishops into adopting moderate courses of action in order to avoid alienating us. 
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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2017, 06:17:25 PM »
Thank you for the photos, Mor.  I have no reason not to take His Holiness at his word.  I think if he had kissed it, he would have said he kissed it. 

Why?  ISTM it's better for everyone if this is left ambiguous. 

Quote
That said, I can see where people would be unhappy with him inclining his head to the book as if it were a holy thing.  You are of course right that pressing one's forehead to an object could be seen as a form of veneration.  That said, it could also simply be a spontaneous gesture meant to show that he found the gift to be precious and he was showing his appreciation for it.  I've seen my people from Mediterranean cultures - including family members - make such gestures - and even flat out kiss - inanimate objects with no religious connotations given to them as gifts to show that they treasure the gift and the sentiment behind it.  I'm not going to say this isn't problematic, and I certainly see where Mina is coming from.  I'm just saying, this seems to me to be an inconclusive gesture made in the space of a few seconds and doesn't constitute a systematic embrace of things Muslim equivalent to the systematic embrace of things heterodox I described in my previous post.  I think the Six Bishops are making hay here because they apparently have axes to grind.

I agree with you and others who have suggested that this is being used as a "legitimate" grievance providing cover for more debatable ones.  But that doesn't mean there is nothing to see here.  I am all for giving Christians in the Middle East who, unlike us, live under the very real threat of being killed, a wide latitude in terms of how they relate with each other and with the non-Christian majority in the region.  But does this mean that anything goes?  Surely there are some limits?  Where is the line drawn? 

It would be beneficial to learn how Muslims would view this action.  How do they treat the physical book of the Quran?  How do they expect non-Muslims to treat the Quran?  If they saw a Christian cleric perform the action in the photo/video, what would they conclude from it?  Is it a courtesy they would offer to the Bible or other religion's scriptures?  Why or why not? 


Quote
Thanks, very helpful!

For those of us who don't read Malayalam, what is the gist of the two articles in that language linked to in this thread?  Are we to understand that H.B. the Catholicos has come out in support of H.H. the Patriarch?

Yes.  Basically, they declare that they do not accept the actions of the six bishops, that unity is above all what is required at a time when the Middle East and particularly Syria are undergoing such turbulence, that the local synod of their Church in India stands with the Patriarch, and that the secretary of the synod will travel to Syria to meet with the Patriarch. 

Quote
concelebrating the Eucharistic Liturgy with Catholics

I'm afraid to ask, but details please?

I've documented it in the Private Forum before, but unless someone beats me to it here, it will have to wait until next week, as I travel to Chicago tonight.

Do you really think the Patriarch would lie about kissing it?   I mean, if you are intending to imply that he would either lie or otherwise intentionally mislead, or be evasive in a manipulative manner, that is a heavy charge.  To be clear, I am not saying I would be upset if you took that view, I mean, bishops do lie, but if you do have a concern about the integrity of the Patriarch or indeed of my own bishop, I would like to know, because such a concern could well be valid.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2017, 06:22:36 PM »
I have no problems with our bishops concelebrating with Catholics; what we need is a restoration of full communion as quickly as possible, and this facilitates that. 

...I believe the RCC is on the precipice of a degeneration which would make the restoration of communion impossible...

This is why you can't be taken seriously in this thread.
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2017, 06:27:47 PM »
Do you really think the Patriarch would lie about kissing it?   I mean, if you are intending to imply that he would either lie or otherwise intentionally mislead, or be evasive in a manipulative manner, that is a heavy charge.  To be clear, I am not saying I would be upset if you took that view, I mean, bishops do lie, but if you do have a concern about the integrity of the Patriarch or indeed of my own bishop, I would like to know, because such a concern could well be valid.

I'm not saying he would lie; if anything, you are (see the bold).  I'm saying that it's more advantageous for him to avoid commenting on it, or to comment in the most general terms, rather than to come out and say unambiguously "Yeah, I kissed it, so what?". 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2017, 06:31:20 PM »
I have no problems with our bishops concelebrating with Catholics; what we need is a restoration of full communion as quickly as possible, and this facilitates that. 

...I believe the RCC is on the precipice of a degeneration which would make the restoration of communion impossible...

This is why you can't be taken seriously in this thread.

You of course failed to incoude in the copy-pasta my view as to the reason why we need to move towards the restoration of communion immediately, and that is, to use such a tenuous and fleeting restoration as a means of politically influencing the RCC.

That difference of opinion aside, I am the only person in this thread who this entire issue directly impacts, as far as I know, in that one of the bishops in question happens to be my own.

It is unpleasant when a rupture exists between ones bishop and ones Patriarch.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2017, 06:33:23 PM »
Do you really think the Patriarch would lie about kissing it?   I mean, if you are intending to imply that he would either lie or otherwise intentionally mislead, or be evasive in a manipulative manner, that is a heavy charge.  To be clear, I am not saying I would be upset if you took that view, I mean, bishops do lie, but if you do have a concern about the integrity of the Patriarch or indeed of my own bishop, I would like to know, because such a concern could well be valid.

I'm not saying he would lie; if anything, you are (see the bold).  I'm saying that it's more advantageous for him to avoid commenting on it, or to comment in the most general terms, rather than to come out and say unambiguously "Yeah, I kissed it, so what?".

Fair enough.

I have no reason to believe the Patriarch is of the dishonest type.  I have a somewhat high opinion of all of the bishops in my jurisdiction, which is why this rupture is of a troubling nature.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2017, 06:47:11 PM »
Wgw,

A little anecdote based on history.  I would have a high opinion of those spiritual fathers who I directly have a relationship with and truly benefit me in my spiritual upbringing.

I have respect for ALL clerics, but my respect is also guarded knowing that human weakness is still present.

Regardless of what happens, I do not find these incidents to shake my faith in the OO Church because I know Christ takes care of His Church.

God bless.
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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2017, 09:11:23 PM »
Wgw, old friend, I'm with Mor on this one.  I have mixed feelings about one Oriental Orthodox jurisdiction allowing itself to become a haven for rogue elements fleeing discipline from another jurisdiction, but your response here is one of the most unsettling things that anyone has ever given voice to in the public forum.

I have no problems with our bishops concelebrating with Catholics; what we need is a restoration of full communion as quickly as possible, and this facilitates that. 

Concelebrating the Liturgy is an acknowledgment of a unity that already exists, not a means of facilitating the reconciliation of two disparate bodies that do not share the same Faith.

I reject outright as fundamentally misguided the view espoused by the Ecumenical Patriarch that Catholics are ontologically different. 

I reject outright as fundamentally misguided your view that His All Holiness is wrong on this score.

The only reason to not concelebrate with Catholics is to avoid interfering with OO internal relations and also the process of EO-OO reconciliation

Those are good reasons, but they're not as glaring as the fact that we do not share the same faith as the Roman Catholic Church.

although OO-RC reunion without the EOs would be preferrable to the status quo.

No, it wouldn't, because it would mean that the Oriental Orthodox Church could strike the term "Orthodox" from its name.

Indeed an internal schism of up to 15% would be acceptable to accomplish either OO-EO or OO-RC communion.

What a shockingly stupid and silly thing to say.  Where did you come up with that arbitrary figure?  Who are you to say what percentage of the flock of Christ is acceptable to cast away in order to gain a non-existent unity with the heterodox?  We would certainly lose the Ethiopians and Eritreans (which adds up to a lot more than 15% of our Communion) and I would surely go with them.

Conversely, venerating the Quran is a problem, but I am not prepared to criticize the Patriarch over this issue.  Nor, conversely, am I prepared to criticize my bishop for objecting to it. 

Venerating the Qur'an - if that is indeed what happened, and His Holiness wasn't simply politely acknowledging the gift in a characteristically Mediterranean way - is far less a problem than excommunicating oneself by communing with the heterodox.

I am probably the most pro-ecumenical OO on this forum, I would note

I've just learned that now, much to my horror.

the reason for this is I believe the RCC is on the precipice of a degeneration which would make the restoration of communion impossible, but if communion is restored, the fear of that communion being ruptured could be used to manipulate liberal Roman bishops into adopting moderate courses of action in order to avoid alienating us.

This goes beyond the MOSC-MSOC militia thing.  Let's append a healthy living man to the rotting, gangrenous body of a dying elephant in the hopes that his ichor can infuse the massive, stinking thing with life and not kill him in the process.  I'm not even going to flame you here for this silly fantasy, because I'm just too disappointed to learn that this is what you actually believe and that you are one of the people who is a danger to our Church.  :(
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 09:15:55 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Churc
« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2017, 10:51:14 PM »
Wgw, old friend, I'm with Mor on this one.  I have mixed feelings about one Oriental Orthodox jurisdiction allowing itself to become a haven for rogue elements fleeing discipline from another jurisdiction, but your response here is one of the most unsettling things that anyone has ever given voice to in the public forum.

I have no problems with our bishops concelebrating with Catholics; what we need is a restoration of full communion as quickly as possible, and this facilitates that. 

Concelebrating the Liturgy is an acknowledgment of a unity that already exists, not a means of facilitating the reconciliation of two disparate bodies that do not share the same Faith.

I reject outright as fundamentally misguided the view espoused by the Ecumenical Patriarch that Catholics are ontologically different. 

I reject outright as fundamentally misguided your view that His All Holiness is wrong on this score.

The only reason to not concelebrate with Catholics is to avoid interfering with OO internal relations and also the process of EO-OO reconciliation

Those are good reasons, but they're not as glaring as the fact that we do not share the same faith as the Roman Catholic Church.

although OO-RC reunion without the EOs would be preferrable to the status quo.

No, it wouldn't, because it would mean that the Oriental Orthodox Church could strike the term "Orthodox" from its name.

Indeed an internal schism of up to 15% would be acceptable to accomplish either OO-EO or OO-RC communion.

What a shockingly stupid and silly thing to say.  Where did you come up with that arbitrary figure?  Who are you to say what percentage of the flock of Christ is acceptable to cast away in order to gain a non-existent unity with the heterodox?  We would certainly lose the Ethiopians and Eritreans (which adds up to a lot more than 15% of our Communion) and I would surely go with them.

Conversely, venerating the Quran is a problem, but I am not prepared to criticize the Patriarch over this issue.  Nor, conversely, am I prepared to criticize my bishop for objecting to it. 

Venerating the Qur'an - if that is indeed what happened, and His Holiness wasn't simply politely acknowledging the gift in a characteristically Mediterranean way - is far less a problem than excommunicating oneself by communing with the heterodox.

I am probably the most pro-ecumenical OO on this forum, I would note

I've just learned that now, much to my horror.

the reason for this is I believe the RCC is on the precipice of a degeneration which would make the restoration of communion impossible, but if communion is restored, the fear of that communion being ruptured could be used to manipulate liberal Roman bishops into adopting moderate courses of action in order to avoid alienating us.

This goes beyond the MOSC-MSOC militia thing.  Let's append a healthy living man to the rotting, gangrenous body of a dying elephant in the hopes that his ichor can infuse the massive, stinking thing with life and not kill him in the process.  I'm not even going to flame you here for this silly fantasy, because I'm just too disappointed to learn that this is what you actually believe and that you are one of the people who is a danger to our Church.  :(

I agree with the view that concelebration celebrates a pre-existant unity.  I furthermore am opposed to the idea of subordinating the Oriental Orthodox church to the Pope.  Basically, my view is that sufficient dogmatic unity exists so that an attempt to restore communion ought to be made, and full communion could be restored before the Oriental Catholic churches are merged into the OO churches.

The idea is, if, after a restoration of communion, Rome takes a turn for the worse, one component of the restoration would be the reintegration of the Oriental Catholics into the orthodox juridictions, and thus, we would take them with us.

I am of the opinion that, considering the extent to which Latinization is now frowned upon in the RCC, and considering the extent to which even traditionalists in the Roman Rite look eastwards now, it is pointless maintaining a schism which in our case dates from the fifth century and which does not involve the same criteria as the EO schism, except for the filioque, which remains a slight proboem, but not as much of a problem as it is sometimes understood. 

Needless to say however such a reconciliation could not be accomplished without support of the Ethiopians. 

I do not support however the idea of Pope Francis on the dating of Easter and I think Pope Tawadros II was in error to express enthusiasm for it, mainly because that idea would involve a derogation from the Council of Nicea.

At any rate my pro-ecumenism should hardly come as a shock; I consider the continuation of the schisms between the apostolic churches to be a horror.  Many of the objections commonly raised to RC doctrinal positions appear to overstate actual variation or muddle the RC dogmatic standpoint.  I have also expressed these views before.

Conversely, I am vehemently opposed to religious syncretism.  Thus, venerating the Quran is in my view to be opposed, whereas a phased impoementation of restored Eucharistic communion which can involve transitional intercommunion and concelebration is to be supported.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Churc
« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2017, 11:18:49 AM »
I agree with the view that concelebration celebrates a pre-existant unity.

This is not consistent with your previous post in which you advocate for concelebration as a means of facilitating a unity which does not exist.

I furthermore am opposed to the idea of subordinating the Oriental Orthodox church to the Pope.

So then you would have us become some sort of [u-word redacted], participating in the sham of pretending to be "Orthodox in communion with Rome"?

Basically, my view is that sufficient dogmatic unity exists so that an attempt to restore communion ought to be made, and full communion could be restored before the Oriental Catholic churches are merged into the OO churches.

I am not sure that this is the case, but if it were, then this should be accomplished through dialogue and not premature concelebration.  And one way or the other, the "Oriental Catholics" are real people who apparently treasure their unity with Rome over and above the prospect of unity with us, not pieces on your hypothetical chessboard, and should your bizarre and fantastic speculation be accomplished, and we and Rome again part ways, they would likely leave us with her.

The idea is, if, after a restoration of communion, Rome takes a turn for the worse, one component of the restoration would be the reintegration of the Oriental Catholics into the orthodox juridictions, and thus, we would take them with us.

This sounds like intercommunion as a devious strategy and not as a genuine manifestation of unity, like a young gold digger marrying an old man and hoping for a hefty divorce settlement in a year or two.

I am of the opinion that, considering the extent to which Latinization is now frowned upon in the RCC, and considering the extent to which even traditionalists in the Roman Rite look eastwards now, it is pointless maintaining a schism which in our case dates from the fifth century and which does not involve the same criteria as the EO schism, except for the filioque, which remains a slight proboem, but not as much of a problem as it is sometimes understood. 

What specifically do you mean here?  You make it sound as if we are closer theologically speaking to the Franks than to the Byzantines.

Needless to say however such a reconciliation could not be accomplished without support of the Ethiopians.

So, like Aesop's puppy, you'd be happy to sacrifice the unity and integrity of our Communion in order to pursue what might not even be a lasting unity with Rome.  I can only say this: I'm glad you're just a recent convert with an orientalist fetish idly speculating on the internet and not anyone who will ever have any real influence or position in our Church as it pertains to ecumenism or anything else.

I do not support however the idea of Pope Francis on the dating of Easter and I think Pope Tawadros II was in error to express enthusiasm for it, mainly because that idea would involve a derogation from the Council of Nicea.

At any rate my pro-ecumenism should hardly come as a shock; I consider the continuation of the schisms between the apostolic churches to be a horror.  Many of the objections commonly raised to RC doctrinal positions appear to overstate actual variation or muddle the RC dogmatic standpoint.  I have also expressed these views before.

Conversely, I am vehemently opposed to religious syncretism.  Thus, venerating the Quran is in my view to be opposed, whereas a phased impoementation of restored Eucharistic communion which can involve transitional intercommunion and concelebration is to be supported.

Venerating the Qur'an - if that is indeed what happened, and His Holiness wasn't simply politely acknowledging the gift in a characteristically Mediterranean way - is far less a problem than excommunicating oneself by communing with the heterodox.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 11:26:16 AM by Antonious Nikolas »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Churc
« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2017, 09:13:09 PM »
AN, I am replying to you on the private fora to avoid derailing this thread.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2017, 09:51:19 PM »
Okay.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2017, 08:00:58 AM »
Bishops ask for forgiveness and the blessing of His Holiness.


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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2017, 09:07:57 AM »
It's an interesting statement. They only implicitly recant of their schism by saying that that's never what they intended and there is no direct mention of the status of the (ex-?) bishops of Belgium and Jazira and the status of the priest that the latter ordained. Most of the statement is taken up with re-iterating their criticisms of the patriarch's administrative choices and an acceptance of his apology/clarification about venerating the Qur'an.... It seems that mediation has taken place and a resolution was found, but the details aren't clear from this.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2017, 01:22:42 PM »
Glory to God!
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2017, 01:36:19 PM »
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #51 on: February 15, 2017, 02:36:43 PM »
Good news!  Does that mean they're reinstated, or are they awaiting a response from His Holiness?
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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #52 on: February 15, 2017, 03:38:46 PM »
Their letter of "apology" still seems pretty critical of His Holiness to me.   I glorify God that we're on the road to recovery, but I don't think it's kiss and make up time just yet.  Let's see what the Synod and His Holiness have to say.  Lord, have mercy.  :-\
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #53 on: February 15, 2017, 03:52:50 PM »
.. no direct mention of the status of the (ex-?) bishops of Belgium and Jazira and the status of the priest that the latter ordained.

Mor Eusthathius Matta Roham, who was the  Archbishop of Jezira and the Euphrates; by himself abandoned his flock at the most critical time for the folk and fled to Austria.  The Synod gave him 6 months to return to his Archdiocese and take care of the flock; which he didnot, but chose to stay in the safety offered by Europe. So a new Archbishop was installed for Jezira and the Euphrates.  I am not sure how you can revisit that.

So Mor Eusthathius Matta Roham, is now a general bishop with no diocese assigned.  And no canon allows an archbishop to ordain a priest outside his archdiocese. So anybody an archbishop who has fled his archdiocese ordains within the jurisdiction of another bishop is not a canonically ordained priest.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 03:54:40 PM by dhinuus »
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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #54 on: February 15, 2017, 03:58:55 PM »
Let's see what the Synod and His Holiness have to say.  Lord, have mercy.  :-\
H.H also has to be careful how is chooses to express the "Love your enemy" command.
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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #55 on: February 15, 2017, 08:55:13 PM »
The Standing Conference of Oriental Orthodox Churches has issued a strong statement in support of His Holiness here.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #56 on: February 17, 2017, 09:54:56 AM »



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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #57 on: February 17, 2017, 09:56:08 AM »
http://prayforthepatriarch.com/

A gift to His Holiness Kumran Rabo Ignatius Aphrem II, Patriarch of Antioch and all the East and Supreme Head of the Universal Syriac Orthodox Church.

With great energy, His Holiness travels around the world, visits His scattered herd, works for His Lord and His church and prays with great spirit, pouring His blessings upon us. As an initiative to repay this in a small yet important way, we want the people to contribute to His Holiness by also praying for Him.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #58 on: February 17, 2017, 10:02:35 AM »
http://prayforthepatriarch.com/

A gift to His Holiness Kumran Rabo Ignatius Aphrem II, Patriarch of Antioch and all the East and Supreme Head of the Universal Syriac Orthodox Church.

With great energy, His Holiness travels around the world, visits His scattered herd, works for His Lord and His church and prays with great spirit, pouring His blessings upon us. As an initiative to repay this in a small yet important way, we want the people to contribute to His Holiness by also praying for Him.

Amen.  Lord, have mercy.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #59 on: February 17, 2017, 10:22:12 AM »
http://prayforthepatriarch.com/

A gift to His Holiness Kumran Rabo Ignatius Aphrem II, Patriarch of Antioch and all the East and Supreme Head of the Universal Syriac Orthodox Church.

With great energy, His Holiness travels around the world, visits His scattered herd, works for His Lord and His church and prays with great spirit, pouring His blessings upon us. As an initiative to repay this in a small yet important way, we want the people to contribute to His Holiness by also praying for Him.

Amen.  Lord, have mercy.

Indeed.  Kyrie eleison
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #60 on: March 19, 2017, 12:45:22 AM »


« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 12:46:14 AM by dhinuus »
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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #61 on: March 19, 2017, 03:12:14 PM »
May God give the bishops who were offered a period of time to offer their repentance per item three a heart for true repentance and reconciliation.  May God heal his Church and prevent any lasting schism or the formation of what could only be an illicit and illegitimate parallel administration.  May God also give the suspended bishops a heart for repentance.  Lord, have mercy.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 03:14:49 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #62 on: April 24, 2017, 08:04:26 AM »
Updates?
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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #63 on: April 24, 2017, 09:38:20 AM »
The four bishops who have not been suspended have until the end of this month to reconcile with His Holiness and the Holy Synod and accept its decisions.  Let us pray that God gives them a heart for repentence and reconciliation.  Amen.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #64 on: September 04, 2017, 05:08:42 PM »
His Holiness Patriarch Mor Ignatius Aphrem II received His Eminence Mor Severius Malke Mourad (one of the bishops who accused the Patriarch of venerating the Quran), Patriarchal Vicar in Jerusalem, Jordan and the Holy Land, at the Patriarchal Residence in Atchaneh - Lebanon
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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #65 on: September 04, 2017, 05:18:27 PM »
May God bring about peace and reconciliation in His Holy Church.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #66 on: September 07, 2017, 10:21:38 PM »
Is he the only protesting metropolitan who has submitted to the Antioch Patriarchate?

His Holiness Patriarch Mor Ignatius Aphrem II received His Eminence Mor Severius Malke Mourad (one of the bishops who accused the Patriarch of venerating the Quran), Patriarchal Vicar in Jerusalem, Jordan and the Holy Land, at the Patriarchal Residence in Atchaneh - Lebanon

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #67 on: September 08, 2017, 12:36:52 AM »
From this subject we can talk about an important problem is when and how we as oriental christian become dhimmi.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #68 on: September 08, 2017, 11:49:31 AM »
From this subject we can talk about an important problem is when and how we as oriental christian become dhimmi.

What church are you a part of, Youssef?
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #69 on: September 08, 2017, 03:09:58 PM »
From this subject we can talk about an important problem is when and how we as oriental christian become dhimmi.

What church are you a part of, Youssef?

Maronite.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #70 on: September 08, 2017, 05:09:32 PM »
From this subject we can talk about an important problem is when and how we as oriental christian become dhimmi.

What church are you a part of, Youssef?

Maronite.

Okay.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #71 on: September 08, 2017, 05:56:14 PM »
From this subject we can talk about an important problem is when and how we as oriental christian become dhimmi.

What church are you a part of, Youssef?

Maronite.


Okay.

You are syriac or copt?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 05:57:02 PM by youssef »

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #72 on: September 09, 2017, 10:48:58 AM »
From this subject we can talk about an important problem is when and how we as oriental christian become dhimmi.

What church are you a part of, Youssef?

Maronite.


Okay.

You are syriac or copt?

Coptic Orthodox
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #73 on: September 09, 2017, 05:21:31 PM »
Is he the only protesting metropolitan who has submitted to the Antioch Patriarchate?
As far as I know all of them except the Mor Osthatheos Matta Rohum. (Metropolitan of Jazirah & Euphrates) who abandoned his folks and diocese at the height of the ISIS atrocities has been reconciled to the Patriarchate.  Mor Osthatheos  was given 90 days to return to his diocese and lead his folk;  but he was not ready to leave the safety of Europe; so in his place another Metropolitan was ordained and enthroned for Jazirah and Euphrates.
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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #74 on: September 10, 2017, 07:09:07 AM »
It sounds like he has a somewhat different situation then. Thank God most of them have remained with the Church!

Is he the only protesting metropolitan who has submitted to the Antioch Patriarchate?
As far as I know all of them except the Mor Osthatheos Matta Rohum. (Metropolitan of Jazirah & Euphrates) who abandoned his folks and diocese at the height of the ISIS atrocities has been reconciled to the Patriarchate.  Mor Osthatheos  was given 90 days to return to his diocese and lead his folk;  but he was not ready to leave the safety of Europe; so in his place another Metropolitan was ordained and enthroned for Jazirah and Euphrates.
"This is the Apostolic Faith, the Orthodox Faith, and the Faith of the Fathers. Having this wonderful treasure, let us preserve it, let us keep it, and let us also use it in such a way that this treasure becomes the victory of Christ in us and in His Church." ~ St. Severus of Antioch ~

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #75 on: September 11, 2017, 07:52:32 AM »
Well, I don't know Arabic, and Google Translate or whatever FB uses isn't so great, but I get the sense that at least some of it is theological.  For example, there appear to be videos of HH the Patriarch venerating a Quran and speaking well of "the Prophet Muhammad".  Also, I'm led to believe by some sources known to me IRL that at least one of the six bishops in this group was a/the chief rival for the patriarchate in the last election, so there's also that.
The EO Antiochian Metropolitan of Brazil has celebrated the Hijra with Muslims too... Stockholm syndrome maybe? I wonder if they actually represent Arab Orthodox in any sense having that approach. I hope not.


Are you talking about Dom Damaskinos Mansour? Well, I know that the syrian-lebanese community in Brazil is quite united and they overlook the religious issues sometimes, and there is also a friendly relationship between christians in middle east and shia muslims.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #76 on: September 11, 2017, 02:51:49 PM »
Well, I don't know Arabic, and Google Translate or whatever FB uses isn't so great, but I get the sense that at least some of it is theological.  For example, there appear to be videos of HH the Patriarch venerating a Quran and speaking well of "the Prophet Muhammad".  Also, I'm led to believe by some sources known to me IRL that at least one of the six bishops in this group was a/the chief rival for the patriarchate in the last election, so there's also that.
The EO Antiochian Metropolitan of Brazil has celebrated the Hijra with Muslims too... Stockholm syndrome maybe? I wonder if they actually represent Arab Orthodox in any sense having that approach. I hope not.


Are you talking about Dom Damaskinos Mansour? Well, I know that the syrian-lebanese community in Brazil is quite united and they overlook the religious issues sometimes, and there is also a friendly relationship between christians in middle east and shia muslims.

The Muslim president of Egypt has attended Coptic Orthodox services.  I don't think that if an Orthodox leader extends an ecumenical gesture to the Muslims many of us live cheek by jowl with that this is necessarily indicative of Stockholm syndrome or any more problematic than participating in an ecumenical prayer service with Evangelicals or Charismatics.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #77 on: September 11, 2017, 03:40:52 PM »
The orthodox patriach in Syria in the last easter has invited the mufti of Suria to say a word where he denied that christ on God.

Some lebanese christian are becoming shia. ;D
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 03:41:17 PM by youssef »

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #78 on: September 11, 2017, 03:52:02 PM »
Well, I don't know Arabic, and Google Translate or whatever FB uses isn't so great, but I get the sense that at least some of it is theological.  For example, there appear to be videos of HH the Patriarch venerating a Quran and speaking well of "the Prophet Muhammad".  Also, I'm led to believe by some sources known to me IRL that at least one of the six bishops in this group was a/the chief rival for the patriarchate in the last election, so there's also that.
The EO Antiochian Metropolitan of Brazil has celebrated the Hijra with Muslims too... Stockholm syndrome maybe? I wonder if they actually represent Arab Orthodox in any sense having that approach. I hope not.


Are you talking about Dom Damaskinos Mansour? Well, I know that the syrian-lebanese community in Brazil is quite united and they overlook the religious issues sometimes, and there is also a friendly relationship between christians in middle east and shia muslims.

The Muslim president of Egypt has attended Coptic Orthodox services.  I don't think that if an Orthodox leader extends an ecumenical gesture to the Muslims many of us live cheek by jowl with that this is necessarily indicative of Stockholm syndrome or any more problematic than participating in an ecumenical prayer service with Evangelicals or Charismatics.

The problematic is your church position.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #79 on: September 11, 2017, 03:53:23 PM »
Well, I don't know Arabic, and Google Translate or whatever FB uses isn't so great, but I get the sense that at least some of it is theological.  For example, there appear to be videos of HH the Patriarch venerating a Quran and speaking well of "the Prophet Muhammad".  Also, I'm led to believe by some sources known to me IRL that at least one of the six bishops in this group was a/the chief rival for the patriarchate in the last election, so there's also that.
The EO Antiochian Metropolitan of Brazil has celebrated the Hijra with Muslims too... Stockholm syndrome maybe? I wonder if they actually represent Arab Orthodox in any sense having that approach. I hope not.


Are you talking about Dom Damaskinos Mansour? Well, I know that the syrian-lebanese community in Brazil is quite united and they overlook the religious issues sometimes, and there is also a friendly relationship between christians in middle east and shia muslims.

The Muslim president of Egypt has attended Coptic Orthodox services.  I don't think that if an Orthodox leader extends an ecumenical gesture to the Muslims many of us live cheek by jowl with that this is necessarily indicative of Stockholm syndrome or any more problematic than participating in an ecumenical prayer service with Evangelicals or Charismatics.

The problematic is your church position.

What are you talking about?  Clarify your statement.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #80 on: September 11, 2017, 04:07:17 PM »
Your church this time had take a clear political statement with sisi, even they would make him prophet. Here is the problem first the church has been against some of here children who are against sisi. But not here the problem the problem is in the future. Even they didn't get real protection

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #81 on: September 11, 2017, 04:41:57 PM »
Your church this time had take a clear political statement with sisi, even they would make him prophet. Here is the problem first the church has been against some of here children who are against sisi. But not here the problem the problem is in the future. Even they didn't get real protection

Let me make an attempt at translating what you say here.  I wanted to go backwards to Arabic and back to English:

Your Church now made a clear political stance with Sisi to the point where some members of the Church made him a prophet.  Here is one problem:  your Church has made a stance against some of her members who are against Sisi.  But that's not the main problem.  The main problem is in the future where even Sisi's supporters don't get real protection.

Have I conveyed what you are trying to say?
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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #82 on: September 11, 2017, 04:55:46 PM »
Your church this time had take a clear political statement with sisi, even they would make him prophet. Here is the problem first the church has been against some of here children who are against sisi. But not here the problem the problem is in the future. Even they didn't get real protection

Let me make an attempt at translating what you say here.  I wanted to go backwards to Arabic and back to English:

Your Church now made a clear political stance with Sisi to the point where some members of the Church made him a prophet.  Here is one problem:  your Church has made a stance against some of her members who are against Sisi.  But that's not the main problem.  The main problem is in the future where even Sisi's supporters don't get real protection.

Have I conveyed what you are trying to say?

Just for the last point. The problem in the future when the situation change. The coptic church didn't get protection in the last years despite her position.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #83 on: September 11, 2017, 05:02:46 PM »
Your church this time had take a clear political statement with sisi, even they would make him prophet. Here is the problem first the church has been against some of here children who are against sisi. But not here the problem the problem is in the future. Even they didn't get real protection

Let me make an attempt at translating what you say here.  I wanted to go backwards to Arabic and back to English:

Your Church now made a clear political stance with Sisi to the point where some members of the Church made him a prophet.  Here is one problem:  your Church has made a stance against some of her members who are against Sisi.  But that's not the main problem.  The main problem is in the future where even Sisi's supporters don't get real protection.

Have I conveyed what you are trying to say?

Just for the last point. The problem in the future when the situation change. The coptic church didn't get protection in the last years despite her position.

If I only correctly understood your last point, then you need to rewrite your point, because I'm still confused.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #84 on: September 11, 2017, 05:06:10 PM »
Your Church now made a clear political stance with Sisi to the point where some members of the Church made him a prophet and they didn't get real protection in the last years. Here is one problem:  your Church has made a stance against some of her members who are against Sisi.  But that's not the main problem.  The main problem is in the future when the political situation change.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 05:06:54 PM by youssef »

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #85 on: September 11, 2017, 05:10:14 PM »
ooooooooohhh...so the last part I made a mistake in...

Okay...I got what you're saying now.

Yea, such is life.  The Coptic Church is not new to sad changes, but if I respond in detail to your previous points, I feel we will be delving into political discussions, which is not appropriate in this public forum.

The best I can say is that I truly do believe the Coptic bishops make the best out of a situation for the intentions of protecting the Coptic people from harm, even if the decisions they make seem naive, unnecessary, or wrong at times.  I don't think they're "against" their children anymore that a father is "against" his own son for desiring to make a decision the father thinks is a bad idea and dangerous.  I also don't mind support of a political person, but to raise him to prophethood is another issue I also do not agree with.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 05:11:19 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #86 on: September 11, 2017, 05:15:35 PM »
ooooooooohhh...so the last part I made a mistake in...

Okay...I got what you're saying now.

Yea, such is life.  The Coptic Church is not new to sad changes, but if I respond in detail to your previous points, I feel we will be delving into political discussions, which is not appropriate in this public forum.

The best I can say is that I truly do believe the Coptic bishops make the best out of a situation for the intentions of protecting the Coptic people from harm, even if the decisions they make seem naive, unnecessary, or wrong at times.  I don't think they're "against" their children anymore that a father is "against" his own son for desiring to make a decision the father thinks is a bad idea and dangerous.  I also don't mind support of a political person, but to raise him to prophethood is another issue I also do not agree with.

But if you compare the position of Pope Shenouda when he refuse to go with Sadat to israel and the church position now . there is so much difference.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #87 on: September 11, 2017, 05:17:57 PM »
This has nothing to do with the original topic, and frankly, I believe the Israel issue has a political side to it to which also I will not discuss here.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #88 on: September 11, 2017, 05:34:24 PM »
This has nothing to do with the original topic, and frankly, I believe the Israel issue has a political side to it to which also I will not discuss here.
I know, but just to see the difference. We cannot talk about this subject without the political side.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #89 on: September 11, 2017, 05:53:44 PM »
The difference is that i seePope Shenouda position  a great position and the church position now... Not great.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #90 on: September 11, 2017, 05:58:40 PM »
Youssef, what does your critique of the Coptic Church's support of President Sisi - which I would deem understandable and justifiable - have to do with the my point - which is that Christians gathering in an ecumenical context with Muslims is not necessarily indicative of Stockholm syndrome or any more problematic than gathering with Christian and pseudo-Christian heretics and cultists in an ecumenical context?  And who in the Coptic Church regards Sisi as a prophet?  And what bishop has sanctioned anyone critical of the regime?  You're speaking hyperbolically here, and not very clearly, and that's a problem.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #91 on: September 11, 2017, 06:24:42 PM »
The difference is that i seePope Shenouda position  a great position and the church position now... Not great.

Feel free to ask the question here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/board,24.0.html

I'll be more than happy to indulge on your curiosities and your views.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #92 on: September 11, 2017, 06:35:02 PM »
The difference is that i seePope Shenouda position  a great position and the church position now... Not great.

Feel free to ask the question here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/board,24.0.html

I'll be more than happy to indulge on your curiosities and your views.

Cannot access there.  It is not curiosity for me the egyptian problem, i consider it as our problem like syria and palestine.
But answer the question about the original sin :D because there is another question after.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #93 on: September 11, 2017, 06:37:33 PM »
The difference is that i seePope Shenouda position  a great position and the church position now... Not great.

Feel free to ask the question here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/board,24.0.html

I'll be more than happy to indulge on your curiosities and your views.

Cannot access there.  It is not curiosity for me the egyptian problem, i consider it as our problem like syria and palestine.
But answer the question about the original sin :D because there is another question after.

If you want to gain access to discuss politics, send a private message to Fr. George.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #94 on: September 12, 2017, 12:20:28 AM »
Youssef, what does your critique of the Coptic Church's support of President Sisi - which I would deem understandable and justifiable - have to do with the my point - which is that Christians gathering in an ecumenical context with Muslims is not necessarily indicative of Stockholm syndrome or any more problematic than gathering with Christian and pseudo-Christian heretics and cultists in an ecumenical context?  And who in the Coptic Church regards Sisi as a prophet?  And what bishop has sanctioned anyone critical of the regime?  You're speaking hyperbolically here, and not very clearly, and that's a problem.

You are right it doesn't have connexion, but as you had mention sissi and the church i had feel that i should saywhat i think about the church position.
Father makkari younan for exemple has say that the heaven send us Sisi.
No one was sanctionned but i know some people who had decide not to go to the church because of that position

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: What's going on in the Syriac Orthodox Church?!
« Reply #95 on: September 12, 2017, 07:57:14 AM »
Youssef, what does your critique of the Coptic Church's support of President Sisi - which I would deem understandable and justifiable - have to do with the my point - which is that Christians gathering in an ecumenical context with Muslims is not necessarily indicative of Stockholm syndrome or any more problematic than gathering with Christian and pseudo-Christian heretics and cultists in an ecumenical context?  And who in the Coptic Church regards Sisi as a prophet?  And what bishop has sanctioned anyone critical of the regime?  You're speaking hyperbolically here, and not very clearly, and that's a problem.

You are right it doesn't have connexion, but as you had mention sissi and the church i had feel that i should saywhat i think about the church position.
Father makkari younan for exemple has say that the heaven send us Sisi.
No one was sanctionned but i know some people who had decide not to go to the church because of that position

Fr. Makary is known to say a lot of controversial things, some of them, in my opinion, not precisely in line with Orthodox theology, pneumatology, and ecclesiology.  I definitely wouldn't consider him a spokesman for the Orthodox Church.

As far as people leaving the Church over the acknowledgment of some of its leaders and clergy that the present leadership in Egypt has been kinder to the Copts than the former, that is a truly petty reason to endanger their souls.

Finally, I only mentioned President Sisi's attending our services within the context of this "mingling with Muslims = Stockholm syndrome" garbage.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.