Author Topic: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith  (Read 13341 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline WPM

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,450
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #90 on: February 12, 2017, 10:16:39 AM »
Got an email from someone along the lines of what Lepanto wrote above that Amoris Laetitia is not magisterial.  So I just wanted to point out a couple of things.

1. Pope Francis said that the interpretation of Amoris Laetitia by Cardinal Schonborn of Vienna was the definitive one.

"On the flight returning from Greece, Pope Francis was asked if the Apostolic Exhortation contained a 'change in discipline that governs access to the sacraments' for Catholics who are divorced and remarried. The Pope replied, 'I can say yes, period.' Adding, however, that this would be 'too small' of an answer, the Pope then urged reading the presentation of Cardinal Schönborn, calling Schönborn a 'great theologian who knows the doctrine of the Church.'  'In that presentation your question will have the answer,' the pope concluded."

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/pope-says-schonborn-interpretation-on-communion-for-remarried-is-the-final

2. Cardinal Schonborn said the following:

"It is obvious that this is an act of the magisterium: It is an apostolic exhortation. It is clear that the pope is exercising here his role of pastor, of master and teacher of the faith, after having benefited from the consultation of the two synods. I have no doubt that it must be said that this is a pontifical document of great quality, an authentic teaching of sacra doctrina, which leads us back to the contemporary relevance of the Word of God."

https://cnsblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/07/the-teaching-authority-of-amoris-laetitia/

So the Pope says that AL contains a change in sacramental discipline and directs individuals to Cardinal Schonborn who says it's magisterial, "an authentic teaching of sacra doctrina" but despite this some are still able to conclude something completely to the contrary.

All of this reminds me of an episode of the Simpsons years ago.  Homer, trying to one up Flanders, has a BBQ with this beautiful pig, but the pig is on a cart with wheels and the cart ends up rolling away with the pig.  The pig goes through one dirty place after another with Homer and Bart chasing behind and Homer desperately maintaining "it's still good, it's still good." 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MWvevkE0kAI

The only difference is that at least Homer finally accepted the reality of the situation and gave up.  When will AL deniers accept the truth?  Perhaps when pigs fly. ;)

Did you really just make a  comparison between a pig getting dirty in a cartoon and RC pastoral guidelines about the reception of the Eucharist (among others)? Strange sense of humor...


In the Catholic Church its called the Blessed Sacrament.
Learn meditation.

Offline Lepanto

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 290
  • Faith: Roman Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Munich and Freising
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #91 on: February 12, 2017, 12:16:09 PM »
We are digressing. What has NFP to do with anything?
The thread opener, petros22, spoke of a crisis of faith triggered by AL. This is a serious problem.
Imho there is but one reason to leave the RC church: If you are convinced that the church which is truly Christ's body, of which we know that the portae inferi non praevalebunt eam is to be found elsewhere. Then you need to go. But not because of some scrap of paper or because the grass is greener on the other side of the Bosporus or other nonsense.
I do not fully understand why the Orthodox care at all about AL. Why not shrug, think "poor Catholics" and go on with the agenda? It is a purely inner RC issue. But anyway, the thread is here on OC.net and
petros22 asked this question where we are admittedly somewhat at a loss.
We can only ask him not to leave because of a footnote - AL is simply not even worth that much attention.
una cum famulo tuo Papa nostro et Antistite nostro et omnibus orthodoxis atque catholicæ et apostolicæ fidei cultoribus

Offline Vanhyo

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 566
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Layman in the Bulgarian Orthodox Church
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #92 on: February 12, 2017, 12:45:00 PM »
Quote
Getting back to Amoris Laetitia, what is at issue is that Catholicism is now sanctioning people who are divorced and CIVILLY remarried to receive communion.  These aren't just adulterers from a Catholic perspective, they are people having sexual relations outside of a sacramental marriage, both of which are mortal sins, who are being allowed to receive communion which when in a state of mortal sin is itself a mortal sin.  Like it or not, the only way Catholicism can square all of this is to do precisely what Orthodoxy is currently doing, bless a second sacramental marriage.
Yeah i was just thinking about that, if an orthodox priest for examples knows that a person is committing adultery and haven't repented, that person will be denied communion.

Amoris Laetitia seems to permit people to commit adultery and then take communion, if i understand this correct, this document have the potential to import the sexual revolution into the vatican.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 12:46:11 PM by Vanhyo »

Online The young fogey

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,060
  • Milhouse van Houten in a Raymond Chandler novel
    • A conservative blog for peace
  • Faith: Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Philadelphia, Roman Rite
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #93 on: February 12, 2017, 01:00:44 PM »
We are digressing. What has NFP to do with anything?

The thread opener, petros22, spoke of a crisis of faith triggered by AL. This is a serious problem.

Imho there is but one reason to leave the RC church: If you are convinced that the church which is truly Christ's body, of which we know that the portae inferi non praevalebunt eam , is to be found elsewhere. Then you need to go. But not because of some scrap of paper or because the grass is greener on the other side of the Bosporus or other nonsense.

I do not fully understand why the Orthodox care at all about AL. Why not shrug, think "poor Catholics" and go on with the agenda? It is a purely inner RC issue. But anyway, the thread is here on OC.net and petros22 asked this question where we are admittedly somewhat at a loss.
We can only ask him not to leave because of a footnote - AL is simply not even worth that much attention.

Amen.

Spiritual people often caution against converting in order to run away from something rather than toward something, and against converting generally unless it's for a very serious reason.

Become Orthodox if you're convinced that we apostolic Christians outside the eastern Roman Empire got it wrong sometime around 1,000 years ago, not because of a document one of our people wrote last year or a country's bishops' conference overstepping its authority. Become Anglican (again) if you're convinced the medieval Catholic Church became heretical so Thomas Cranmer and his friends, inspired by the Holy Spirit through their diligent study of scripture and the church fathers, were called to purify the church in England to the pristine condition of the first Christians.

I'll refer you to something the late liberal Catholic Fr. Andrew Greeley wrote: don't leave us because, to give one of his examples, our churchmen sold indulgences to help rebuild St. Peter's Basilica. Leave us because, just like the Orthodox, we teach that God is encountered powerfully in sacred places.
"You always were a historically illiterate jerk, John." - OicwR doyen Stuart Koehl

High-church libertarian
Blog

Offline Rohzek

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 947
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #94 on: February 12, 2017, 01:09:29 PM »
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

Western Christianity went down the drain many centuries ago from an Eastern perspective.
In what way did the West went down the drain? I do not like their theology that much but they do have Augustine who seems to have been the greatest theologian in history.

Augustine is not a theologian in the Orthodox Church. The theologians are St. Gregory the Theologian and St. Simeon the Theologian. He also is heavily influenced by prophet Mani.

Says someone who has never read Saint Augustine.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,560
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #95 on: February 12, 2017, 01:13:39 PM »
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

Western Christianity went down the drain many centuries ago from an Eastern perspective.
In what way did the West went down the drain? I do not like their theology that much but they do have Augustine who seems to have been the greatest theologian in history.

Augustine is not a theologian in the Orthodox Church. The theologians are St. Gregory the Theologian and St. Simeon the Theologian. He also is heavily influenced by prophet Mani.
Augustine wrote AGAINST manicheism. Mani's influence on Augustine is overrated . Augustine talked a lot about the prodigal son and how that is the human condition. Something he truly jag experienced. He if anybody knew that Only God is Good and that Only God saves.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Charles Martel

  • Traditional Roman Catholic
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,797
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #96 on: February 12, 2017, 01:18:44 PM »
Quote
The RC teaching is that infallible statements are those by the Ecumenical Councils or those made by the Pope "ex cathedra" and accepted by the Church. [i]Do either apply to the Amoris. Laetitia?[/i]
No. He (Francis) never invoked infallible authority; 8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGXj-Ol-Ck8
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Rohzek

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 947
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #97 on: February 12, 2017, 01:24:34 PM »
We are digressing. What has NFP to do with anything?
The thread opener, petros22, spoke of a crisis of faith triggered by AL. This is a serious problem.
Imho there is but one reason to leave the RC church: If you are convinced that the church which is truly Christ's body, of which we know that the portae inferi non praevalebunt eam is to be found elsewhere. Then you need to go. But not because of some scrap of paper or because the grass is greener on the other side of the Bosporus or other nonsense.
I do not fully understand why the Orthodox care at all about AL. Why not shrug, think "poor Catholics" and go on with the agenda? It is a purely inner RC issue. But anyway, the thread is here on OC.net and
petros22 asked this question where we are admittedly somewhat at a loss.
We can only ask him not to leave because of a footnote - AL is simply not even worth that much attention.

I really don't care that much about it. I for one support the welcoming of divorcees, etc. into the arms to the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church's previous position was absurd and was intent on erasing its history of a more forgiving nature on divorce and remarriage. The fact of the matter is that 1200 years ago, the Latin West's position on divorce and remarriage was remarkably similar to that of the Christian East's.

The only reason any Orthodox would care today about AL is that it highlights the absurdities of Catholicism and its governing structure. It calls into question its consistency, while it itself claims to be consistent.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,154
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic Church
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #98 on: February 12, 2017, 01:37:33 PM »
We are digressing. What has NFP to do with anything?
The thread opener, petros22, spoke of a crisis of faith triggered by AL. This is a serious problem.
Imho there is but one reason to leave the RC church: If you are convinced that the church which is truly Christ's body, of which we know that the portae inferi non praevalebunt eam is to be found elsewhere. Then you need to go. But not because of some scrap of paper or because the grass is greener on the other side of the Bosporus or other nonsense.
I do not fully understand why the Orthodox care at all about AL. Why not shrug, think "poor Catholics" and go on with the agenda? It is a purely inner RC issue. But anyway, the thread is here on OC.net and
petros22 asked this question where we are admittedly somewhat at a loss.
We can only ask him not to leave because of a footnote - AL is simply not even worth that much attention.

If Rome continues to degenerate, then Rome might return to Holy Mother Church. That might be why we care.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”- St. Ambrose of Milan

"Now one cannot be a half-hearted Christian, but only entirely or not at all." -Fr. Seraphim Rose

"He who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen." (1 John 4:20)

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,154
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic Church
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #99 on: February 12, 2017, 01:39:24 PM »
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

Western Christianity went down the drain many centuries ago from an Eastern perspective.
In what way did the West went down the drain? I do not like their theology that much but they do have Augustine who seems to have been the greatest theologian in history.

Augustine is not a theologian in the Orthodox Church. The theologians are St. Gregory the Theologian and St. Simeon the Theologian. He also is heavily influenced by prophet Mani.

Says someone who has never read Saint Augustine.

lol You seem to know a lot about me. I've read Augustine.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”- St. Ambrose of Milan

"Now one cannot be a half-hearted Christian, but only entirely or not at all." -Fr. Seraphim Rose

"He who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen." (1 John 4:20)

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,154
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic Church
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #100 on: February 12, 2017, 01:41:35 PM »
We are digressing. What has NFP to do with anything?
The thread opener, petros22, spoke of a crisis of faith triggered by AL. This is a serious problem.
Imho there is but one reason to leave the RC church: If you are convinced that the church which is truly Christ's body, of which we know that the portae inferi non praevalebunt eam is to be found elsewhere. Then you need to go. But not because of some scrap of paper or because the grass is greener on the other side of the Bosporus or other nonsense.
I do not fully understand why the Orthodox care at all about AL. Why not shrug, think "poor Catholics" and go on with the agenda? It is a purely inner RC issue. But anyway, the thread is here on OC.net and
petros22 asked this question where we are admittedly somewhat at a loss.
We can only ask him not to leave because of a footnote - AL is simply not even worth that much attention.

I really don't care that much about it. I for one support the welcoming of divorcees, etc. into the arms to the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church's previous position was absurd and was intent on erasing its history of a more forgiving nature on divorce and remarriage. The fact of the matter is that 1200 years ago, the Latin West's position on divorce and remarriage was remarkably similar to that of the Christian East's.

The only reason any Orthodox would care today about AL is that it highlights the absurdities of Catholicism and its governing structure. It calls into question its consistency, while it itself claims to be consistent.

And, we have a winner.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”- St. Ambrose of Milan

"Now one cannot be a half-hearted Christian, but only entirely or not at all." -Fr. Seraphim Rose

"He who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen." (1 John 4:20)

Offline Rohzek

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 947
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #101 on: February 12, 2017, 01:43:18 PM »
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

Western Christianity went down the drain many centuries ago from an Eastern perspective.
In what way did the West went down the drain? I do not like their theology that much but they do have Augustine who seems to have been the greatest theologian in history.

Augustine is not a theologian in the Orthodox Church. The theologians are St. Gregory the Theologian and St. Simeon the Theologian. He also is heavily influenced by prophet Mani.

Says someone who has never read Saint Augustine.

lol You seem to know a lot about me. I've read Augustine.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on the status of Saint Augustine.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,928
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #102 on: February 12, 2017, 01:47:39 PM »
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

Western Christianity went down the drain many centuries ago from an Eastern perspective.
In what way did the West went down the drain? I do not like their theology that much but they do have Augustine who seems to have been the greatest theologian in history.

Augustine is not a theologian in the Orthodox Church. The theologians are St. Gregory the Theologian and St. Simeon the Theologian. He also is heavily influenced by prophet Mani.

Stop it. You're embarrassing yourself.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,560
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #103 on: February 12, 2017, 02:13:30 PM »
Augustine was the greatest theologian. He is by the way very different from Luther and Calvin. He is a greater psychological genius than any other theologian and his insights on the relation between freedom and grace and the human condition before and after salvation is spot on. That is should be considered as just a fact.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Rohzek

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 947
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #104 on: February 12, 2017, 02:30:58 PM »
Augustine was the greatest theologian. He is by the way very different from Luther and Calvin. He is a greater psychological genius than any other theologian and his insights on the relation between freedom and grace and the human condition before and after salvation is spot on. That is should be considered as just a fact.

Augustine's conception of grace and free will is actually pretty wretched. I much prefer Saint John Cassian's formulation.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline WPM

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,450
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #105 on: February 12, 2017, 02:33:17 PM »
But isn't the Online Internet a better option? ...
Learn meditation.

Offline Ilyin

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 53
  • Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #106 on: February 12, 2017, 02:40:28 PM »
To the  "High Elder" who is "Orthodox and Postpositivist" :)

You guys are on the losing side in the battle as the fiasco in Crete showed last year. Nevermind you can always join the Unitarians, or perhaps   the ever-increasing in size (!)  Parisian Exarchate of post-phenomenologists ? (be sure to buy a polo-neck and copy of Zizek)

Yes we all know about the thirty years war so you don't need to be patronising, it just ain't Christian mate :)

Ilyin


Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,560
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #107 on: February 12, 2017, 02:42:19 PM »
Augustine was the greatest theologian. He is by the way very different from Luther and Calvin. He is a greater psychological genius than any other theologian and his insights on the relation between freedom and grace and the human condition before and after salvation is spot on. That is should be considered as just a fact.

Augustine's conception of grace and free will is actually pretty wretched. I much prefer Saint John Cassian's formulation.
what was his formulation?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,560
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #108 on: February 12, 2017, 02:42:37 PM »
But isn't the Online Internet a better option? ...
what?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Ilyin

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 53
  • Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #109 on: February 12, 2017, 02:52:31 PM »
interesting article here, should be read by a mainstream Roman Catholic:

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/issues/february-10th-2017/pope-franciss-traditionalists/

Offline Vanhyo

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 566
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Layman in the Bulgarian Orthodox Church
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #110 on: February 12, 2017, 02:55:38 PM »
I really don't care that much about it. I for one support the welcoming of divorcees,
This didn't sound very well
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 02:55:49 PM by Vanhyo »

Offline J Michael

  • Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,549
  • Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!
  • Faith: Cafeteria CHRISTIAN Heretic
  • Jurisdiction: Here and now (well...sometimes...)
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #111 on: February 12, 2017, 02:58:06 PM »
I really don't care that much about it. I for one support the welcoming of divorcees,
This didn't sound very well

Why not?
"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Rohzek

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 947
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #112 on: February 12, 2017, 04:18:14 PM »
To the  "High Elder" who is "Orthodox and Postpositivist" :)

You guys are on the losing side in the battle as the fiasco in Crete showed last year. Nevermind you can always join the Unitarians, or perhaps   the ever-increasing in size (!)  Parisian Exarchate of post-phenomenologists ? (be sure to buy a polo-neck and copy of Zizek)

Yes we all know about the thirty years war so you don't need to be patronising, it just ain't Christian mate :)

Ilyin

It's intuitively obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. In what world is a postpositivist even related to Zizek or phenomenology? The answer is - in no world.

I for one do not support the Council of Crete and am very critical of the Patriarchate of Constantinople and its occasional proclamations of a very...let's say a peculiar ecclesiology. Holding this position does not therefore demand that I sell my soul down the river as a political shill.

In short, you've done nothing more than prove my point, which is that you are not actually all that well-principled. You're just a naïve reactionary contrarian.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,707
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #113 on: February 12, 2017, 04:21:26 PM »
To the  "High Elder" who is "Orthodox and Postpositivist" :)

You guys are on the losing side in the battle as the fiasco in Crete showed last year. Nevermind you can always join the Unitarians, or perhaps   the ever-increasing in size (!)  Parisian Exarchate of post-phenomenologists ? (be sure to buy a polo-neck and copy of Zizek)

Yes we all know about the thirty years war so you don't need to be patronising, it just ain't Christian mate :)

Ilyin

What?

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,707
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #114 on: February 12, 2017, 04:22:03 PM »
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

Western Christianity went down the drain many centuries ago from an Eastern perspective.
In what way did the West went down the drain? I do not like their theology that much but they do have Augustine who seems to have been the greatest theologian in history.

Augustine is not a theologian in the Orthodox Church. The theologians are St. Gregory the Theologian and St. Simeon the Theologian. He also is heavily influenced by prophet Mani.

Stop it. You're embarrassing yourself.

That hasn't stopped him before.

Offline Rohzek

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 947
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #115 on: February 12, 2017, 04:23:41 PM »
Augustine was the greatest theologian. He is by the way very different from Luther and Calvin. He is a greater psychological genius than any other theologian and his insights on the relation between freedom and grace and the human condition before and after salvation is spot on. That is should be considered as just a fact.

Augustine's conception of grace and free will is actually pretty wretched. I much prefer Saint John Cassian's formulation.
what was his formulation?

As I understand it, the will of a human being was not so damaged to the extent that he or she was totally depraved. Rather it was damaged by the Fall to the extent that it inclines humanity towards sin. Whether or not God initiates the first encounter of grace, therefore, is somewhat of a moot question. Cassian suspected the answer varied from individual to individual. At the end of the day, however, he believed that the human will acts alongside the divine will, just as it occurs in the person of Christ. While lacking the term, one could say that he professed some form of deification or theosis, if you will. This is best exemplified in his analogy of the farmer. The farmer can plow the fields and plant the seeds, but without the rain it is all in vain. That is how Cassian conceives of salvation.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,707
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #116 on: February 12, 2017, 04:24:40 PM »
Spiritual people often caution against converting in order to run away from something rather than toward something, and against converting generally unless it's for a very serious reason.

Become Orthodox if you're convinced that we apostolic Christians outside the eastern Roman Empire got it wrong sometime around 1,000 years ago, not because of a document one of our people wrote last year or a country's bishops' conference overstepping its authority. Become Anglican (again) if you're convinced the medieval Catholic Church became heretical so Thomas Cranmer and his friends, inspired by the Holy Spirit through their diligent study of scripture and the church fathers, were called to purify the church in England to the pristine condition of the first Christians.

TYF is right for once. Although I wouldn't have phrased it quite like that.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 04:24:48 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,707
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #117 on: February 12, 2017, 04:29:48 PM »
Of course I accept the church's distinction between NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial birth control (available at death merchants Planned Parenthood).

Allowing a calendar/ mucus tests to dictate when you have sex is just as artificial as anything else. You are still trying to have sex without conceiving a child. If you can't see how this is a major departure from the tradition you brag about that only speaks to your historical ignorance.

Too bad Post of the Month is no more. This would have been a worthy candidate.

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,560
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #118 on: February 12, 2017, 04:30:51 PM »
Augustine was the greatest theologian. He is by the way very different from Luther and Calvin. He is a greater psychological genius than any other theologian and his insights on the relation between freedom and grace and the human condition before and after salvation is spot on. That is should be considered as just a fact.

Augustine's conception of grace and free will is actually pretty wretched. I much prefer Saint John Cassian's formulation.
what was his formulation?

As I understand it, the will of a human being was not so damaged to the extent that he or she was totally depraved. Rather it was damaged by the Fall to the extent that it inclines humanity towards sin. Whether or not God initiates the first encounter of grace, therefore, is somewhat of a moot question. Cassian suspected the answer varied from individual to individual. At the end of the day, however, he believed that the human will acts alongside the divine will, just as it occurs in the person of Christ. While lacking the term, one could say that he professed some form of deification or theosis, if you will. This is best exemplified in his analogy of the farmer. The farmer can plow the fields and plant the seeds, but without the rain it is all in vain. That is how Cassian conceives of salvation.
I agree with this view. Man has to respond freely to God's call. But it can't be the othar way around right, that man calls God and God saves man. God always makes the first move right?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline WPM

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,450
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #119 on: February 12, 2017, 05:03:35 PM »
Learn meditation.

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,721
  • Pray for me Sts. Mina & Kyrillos for my interviews
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #120 on: February 13, 2017, 05:55:25 PM »
Augustine was the greatest theologian. He is by the way very different from Luther and Calvin. He is a greater psychological genius than any other theologian and his insights on the relation between freedom and grace and the human condition before and after salvation is spot on. That is should be considered as just a fact.

You should add to your patristic reading St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Irenaeus, St. Theophilus of Antioch, St. Hippolytus of Rome, St. Clement of Alexandria, Origen, St. Athanasius, the Macarian homilies, St. Ephraim the Syrian, the three Cappadocian fathers, St. John Chrysostom, St. Cyril of Jerusalem, and St. Cyril of Alexandria

Then, you can come back and tell us which is the greatest theological genius.  Don't tell us who you think is the best theologian until you read all these men, who also received similar praise by many others as "greatest theologians".
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,721
  • Pray for me Sts. Mina & Kyrillos for my interviews
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #121 on: February 13, 2017, 06:10:22 PM »
Of course I accept the church's distinction between NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial birth control (available at death merchants Planned Parenthood).

Allowing a calendar/ mucus tests to dictate when you have sex is just as artificial as anything else. You are still trying to have sex without conceiving a child. If you can't see how this is a major departure from the tradition you brag about that only speaks to your historical ignorance.

Too bad Post of the Month is no more. This would have been a worthy candidate.

That's why I created the edifying posts thread.

And yea, I think Iconodule makes a slam dunk point that Roman Catholics seem to conveniently ignore.  If they were consistent as they say, they would condemn BOTH "NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial non-abortive birth control (available at your nearest grocery shop)."
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,560
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #122 on: February 13, 2017, 06:19:56 PM »
Augustine was the greatest theologian. He is by the way very different from Luther and Calvin. He is a greater psychological genius than any other theologian and his insights on the relation between freedom and grace and the human condition before and after salvation is spot on. That is should be considered as just a fact.

You should add to your patristic reading St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Irenaeus, St. Theophilus of Antioch, St. Hippolytus of Rome, St. Clement of Alexandria, Origen, St. Athanasius, the Macarian homilies, St. Ephraim the Syrian, the three Cappadocian fathers, St. John Chrysostom, St. Cyril of Jerusalem, and St. Cyril of Alexandria

Then, you can come back and tell us which is the greatest theological genius.  Don't tell us who you think is the best theologian until you read all these men, who also received similar praise by many others as "greatest theologians".
Okay you are right. I love Origen and St Isaac the Syrian.  I know only little about the others and I will make sure to get to know more about them. But Augustine still has his place among the greatest.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Lepanto

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 290
  • Faith: Roman Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Munich and Freising
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #123 on: February 14, 2017, 03:16:53 AM »
Of course I accept the church's distinction between NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial birth control (available at death merchants Planned Parenthood).

Allowing a calendar/ mucus tests to dictate when you have sex is just as artificial as anything else. You are still trying to have sex without conceiving a child. If you can't see how this is a major departure from the tradition you brag about that only speaks to your historical ignorance.

Too bad Post of the Month is no more. This would have been a worthy candidate.

That's why I created the edifying posts thread.

And yea, I think Iconodule makes a slam dunk point that Roman Catholics seem to conveniently ignore.  If they were consistent as they say, they would condemn BOTH "NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial non-abortive birth control (available at your nearest grocery shop)."
Why is it that NFP is a source of so many discussions on this and other Christian boards?
This is not a question of consistency but of economy. Nobody ever says that NFP is the ideal, the best possible thing under the sun. It is a compromise which can work for any couple. Now, if you know a better solution, please go ahead and share it!


« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 03:29:22 AM by Lepanto »
una cum famulo tuo Papa nostro et Antistite nostro et omnibus orthodoxis atque catholicæ et apostolicæ fidei cultoribus

Offline Rohzek

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 947
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #124 on: February 14, 2017, 03:29:35 AM »
Of course I accept the church's distinction between NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial birth control (available at death merchants Planned Parenthood).

Allowing a calendar/ mucus tests to dictate when you have sex is just as artificial as anything else. You are still trying to have sex without conceiving a child. If you can't see how this is a major departure from the tradition you brag about that only speaks to your historical ignorance.

Too bad Post of the Month is no more. This would have been a worthy candidate.

That's why I created the edifying posts thread.

And yea, I think Iconodule makes a slam dunk point that Roman Catholics seem to conveniently ignore.  If they were consistent as they say, they would condemn BOTH "NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial non-abortive birth control (available at your nearest grocery shop)."
Why is it that NFP is a source of so many discussions on this and other Christian boards?
This is not a question of consistency but of economy. Nobody ever says that NFP is the ideal, the best possible thing under the sun. It is a compromise which can work for any couple. Now, if you know a better solution, go ahead and share it!

Pull-out, condoms, non-abortive birth control. The list goes on and on. NFP is garbage btw.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Lepanto

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 290
  • Faith: Roman Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Munich and Freising
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #125 on: February 14, 2017, 04:17:55 AM »
Of course I accept the church's distinction between NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial birth control (available at death merchants Planned Parenthood).

Allowing a calendar/ mucus tests to dictate when you have sex is just as artificial as anything else. You are still trying to have sex without conceiving a child. If you can't see how this is a major departure from the tradition you brag about that only speaks to your historical ignorance.

Too bad Post of the Month is no more. This would have been a worthy candidate.

That's why I created the edifying posts thread.

And yea, I think Iconodule makes a slam dunk point that Roman Catholics seem to conveniently ignore.  If they were consistent as they say, they would condemn BOTH "NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial non-abortive birth control (available at your nearest grocery shop)."
Why is it that NFP is a source of so many discussions on this and other Christian boards?
This is not a question of consistency but of economy. Nobody ever says that NFP is the ideal, the best possible thing under the sun. It is a compromise which can work for any couple. Now, if you know a better solution, go ahead and share it!

Pull-out, condoms, non-abortive birth control. The list goes on and on. NFP is garbage btw.

After reading this several times, it still does not make any sense to me.
Can you explain again?
una cum famulo tuo Papa nostro et Antistite nostro et omnibus orthodoxis atque catholicæ et apostolicæ fidei cultoribus

Offline byhisgrace

  • AOCB
  • Site Supporter
  • OC.net guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,242
  • Memory Eternal to my Younger Brother
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOARCH
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #126 on: February 14, 2017, 11:00:38 AM »
Of course I accept the church's distinction between NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial birth control (available at death merchants Planned Parenthood).

Allowing a calendar/ mucus tests to dictate when you have sex is just as artificial as anything else. You are still trying to have sex without conceiving a child. If you can't see how this is a major departure from the tradition you brag about that only speaks to your historical ignorance.

Too bad Post of the Month is no more. This would have been a worthy candidate.

That's why I created the edifying posts thread.

And yea, I think Iconodule makes a slam dunk point that Roman Catholics seem to conveniently ignore.  If they were consistent as they say, they would condemn BOTH "NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial non-abortive birth control (available at your nearest grocery shop)."
Why is it that NFP is a source of so many discussions on this and other Christian boards?
This is not a question of consistency but of economy. Nobody ever says that NFP is the ideal, the best possible thing under the sun. It is a compromise which can work for any couple. Now, if you know a better solution, please go ahead and share it!
I don't condemn NFP. It's just not any more right or wrong than any other non-abortive methods of contraception.
Oh Holy Apostle, St. John, pray for us

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,707
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #127 on: February 14, 2017, 11:11:05 AM »
Of course I accept the church's distinction between NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial birth control (available at death merchants Planned Parenthood).

Allowing a calendar/ mucus tests to dictate when you have sex is just as artificial as anything else. You are still trying to have sex without conceiving a child. If you can't see how this is a major departure from the tradition you brag about that only speaks to your historical ignorance.

Too bad Post of the Month is no more. This would have been a worthy candidate.

That's why I created the edifying posts thread.

And yea, I think Iconodule makes a slam dunk point that Roman Catholics seem to conveniently ignore.  If they were consistent as they say, they would condemn BOTH "NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial non-abortive birth control (available at your nearest grocery shop)."
Why is it that NFP is a source of so many discussions on this and other Christian boards?
This is not a question of consistency but of economy. Nobody ever says that NFP is the ideal, the best possible thing under the sun. It is a compromise which can work for any couple. Now, if you know a better solution, please go ahead and share it!

Oh, now we think economia is appropriate when it comes to contraception.


« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 11:11:20 AM by Cyrillic »

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,928
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #128 on: February 14, 2017, 11:30:16 AM »
Of course I accept the church's distinction between NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial birth control (available at death merchants Planned Parenthood).

Allowing a calendar/ mucus tests to dictate when you have sex is just as artificial as anything else. You are still trying to have sex without conceiving a child. If you can't see how this is a major departure from the tradition you brag about that only speaks to your historical ignorance.

Too bad Post of the Month is no more. This would have been a worthy candidate.

That's why I created the edifying posts thread.

And yea, I think Iconodule makes a slam dunk point that Roman Catholics seem to conveniently ignore.  If they were consistent as they say, they would condemn BOTH "NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial non-abortive birth control (available at your nearest grocery shop)."
Why is it that NFP is a source of so many discussions on this and other Christian boards?

Because Catholics continually flaunt their teaching on birth control as proof of their fidelity to ancient tradition. That is borne out on this very thread- I would point out that it was your co-religionist Young Fogey who introduced the topic of contraception as an area in which modernism had penetrated the Orthodox Church (but not, he thinks, his own church):

Quote
I tell you one thing: You are next. They will get you. Modernism and relativism will not stop when they have destroyed large parts of the RC church. This is a huge thing. Orthodoxy may seem immune to you, but it is not. So better stop feeling superior now.

It's already happened: recent Orthodox acceptance of contraception.

As long as you keep raising this point, I will not fail to point out the hypocrisy of your position in accepting NFP. If you're tired of hearing about NFP, tell your fellow Catholics to stop affecting superiority because of your position on contraception.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Lepanto

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 290
  • Faith: Roman Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Munich and Freising
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #129 on: February 14, 2017, 11:41:32 AM »
Of course I accept the church's distinction between NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial birth control (available at death merchants Planned Parenthood).

Allowing a calendar/ mucus tests to dictate when you have sex is just as artificial as anything else. You are still trying to have sex without conceiving a child. If you can't see how this is a major departure from the tradition you brag about that only speaks to your historical ignorance.

Too bad Post of the Month is no more. This would have been a worthy candidate.

That's why I created the edifying posts thread.

And yea, I think Iconodule makes a slam dunk point that Roman Catholics seem to conveniently ignore.  If they were consistent as they say, they would condemn BOTH "NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial non-abortive birth control (available at your nearest grocery shop)."
Why is it that NFP is a source of so many discussions on this and other Christian boards?
This is not a question of consistency but of economy. Nobody ever says that NFP is the ideal, the best possible thing under the sun. It is a compromise which can work for any couple. Now, if you know a better solution, please go ahead and share it!

Oh, now we think economia is appropriate when it comes to contraception.
Is it not? But it is when it comes to second and third marriages?
una cum famulo tuo Papa nostro et Antistite nostro et omnibus orthodoxis atque catholicæ et apostolicæ fidei cultoribus

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,721
  • Pray for me Sts. Mina & Kyrillos for my interviews
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #130 on: February 14, 2017, 11:48:17 AM »
The ancient Western Catholic tradition says the the only reason for sexual relations is to procreate.  When you allow "NFP" for "economia", you actually intend to break this rule.  Hence the hypocrisy.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,928
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #131 on: February 14, 2017, 12:09:33 PM »
Of course I accept the church's distinction between NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial birth control (available at death merchants Planned Parenthood).

Allowing a calendar/ mucus tests to dictate when you have sex is just as artificial as anything else. You are still trying to have sex without conceiving a child. If you can't see how this is a major departure from the tradition you brag about that only speaks to your historical ignorance.

Too bad Post of the Month is no more. This would have been a worthy candidate.

That's why I created the edifying posts thread.

And yea, I think Iconodule makes a slam dunk point that Roman Catholics seem to conveniently ignore.  If they were consistent as they say, they would condemn BOTH "NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial non-abortive birth control (available at your nearest grocery shop)."
Why is it that NFP is a source of so many discussions on this and other Christian boards?
This is not a question of consistency but of economy. Nobody ever says that NFP is the ideal, the best possible thing under the sun. It is a compromise which can work for any couple. Now, if you know a better solution, please go ahead and share it!

Oh, now we think economia is appropriate when it comes to contraception.
Is it not? But it is when it comes to second and third marriages?

If you want to justify NFP on the basis of economy, I for one won't object to that, but by the same token you cannot then turn around and condemn us for the Orthodox Church's economy on contraception and marriage.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,154
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic Church
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #132 on: February 14, 2017, 12:23:43 PM »
The ancient Western Catholic tradition says the the only reason for sexual relations is to procreate.

As juxtaposed to what element in the Eastern tradition?
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”- St. Ambrose of Milan

"Now one cannot be a half-hearted Christian, but only entirely or not at all." -Fr. Seraphim Rose

"He who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen." (1 John 4:20)

Offline Lepanto

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 290
  • Faith: Roman Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Munich and Freising
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #133 on: February 14, 2017, 12:40:37 PM »
Of course I accept the church's distinction between NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial birth control (available at death merchants Planned Parenthood).

Allowing a calendar/ mucus tests to dictate when you have sex is just as artificial as anything else. You are still trying to have sex without conceiving a child. If you can't see how this is a major departure from the tradition you brag about that only speaks to your historical ignorance.

Too bad Post of the Month is no more. This would have been a worthy candidate.

That's why I created the edifying posts thread.

And yea, I think Iconodule makes a slam dunk point that Roman Catholics seem to conveniently ignore.  If they were consistent as they say, they would condemn BOTH "NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial non-abortive birth control (available at your nearest grocery shop)."
Why is it that NFP is a source of so many discussions on this and other Christian boards?
This is not a question of consistency but of economy. Nobody ever says that NFP is the ideal, the best possible thing under the sun. It is a compromise which can work for any couple. Now, if you know a better solution, please go ahead and share it!

Oh, now we think economia is appropriate when it comes to contraception.
Is it not? But it is when it comes to second and third marriages?

If you want to justify NFP on the basis of economy, I for one won't object to that, but by the same token you cannot then turn around and condemn us for the Orthodox Church's economy on contraception and marriage.

I don't want to condemn anyone. I am pretty new to this forum, do not want to get banned and I have no idea which disagreements there were in the past with other RCs. As a matter of fact, I already regret replying in this thread. It is leading just to ever more polemics and bad feelings, I fear.
In the end, I think matters such as NFP are strictly private stuff which couples should resolve on their own or with the help of a spiritual father, if needed, and leave it at that. This is I guess something we can agree on. I am sick of others ridiculing Catholics for NFP.
una cum famulo tuo Papa nostro et Antistite nostro et omnibus orthodoxis atque catholicæ et apostolicæ fidei cultoribus

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,721
  • Pray for me Sts. Mina & Kyrillos for my interviews
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #134 on: February 14, 2017, 12:42:42 PM »
The ancient Western Catholic tradition says the the only reason for sexual relations is to procreate.

As juxtaposed to what element in the Eastern tradition?
well, a few fathers like St. John Chrysostom seems to be open to the idea that sexual relations is much more than just procreation, but a mingled unity of both the husband and wife.  I don't deny there is a written majority from the East that seems to agree with the West, but the fact is there is a sense that in the West, sex is seen somewhat as a propagation of sin, whereas in the East, it is not seen that way.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 12:45:12 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.