Author Topic: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith  (Read 10943 times)

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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2017, 01:16:40 PM »
AL is a pastoral document. It has no effect on church teaching whatsoever. It is both unnecessary and irrelevant. Just simply ignore it l. Why would you want to leave the church for a piece of paper?
Don't do it unless you have a better reason.
It should have zero effect on your spiritual life. It is sad if AL leads people astray, but then again there is in the end not much you can do about it. Compared to what the church saw through throughout the centuries, this is just a mini crisis.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #46 on: February 11, 2017, 01:22:00 PM »
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #47 on: February 11, 2017, 01:29:01 PM »
It seems there is some Schadenfreude .
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 01:31:22 PM by Lepanto »
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2017, 01:58:04 PM »
AL is a pastoral document. It has no effect on church teaching whatsoever. It is both unnecessary and irrelevant. Just simply ignore it l. Why would you want to leave the church for a piece of paper?
Don't do it unless you have a better reason.
It should have zero effect on your spiritual life. It is sad if AL leads people astray, but then again there is in the end not much you can do about it. Compared to what the church saw through throughout the centuries, this is just a mini crisis.

Forget the empirical evidence to the contrary wherein it will have a direct effect on the practice of the Church, it's still "pastoral."
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #49 on: February 11, 2017, 02:25:26 PM »
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

Western Christianity went down the drain many centuries ago from an Eastern perspective.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 02:25:55 PM by Cyrillic »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #50 on: February 11, 2017, 03:20:44 PM »
It seems there is some Schadenfreude .
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

I derive no pleasure from observing what the Roman Catholics are going through; I believe it is an inevitable consequence of their theological system (whether or not the current controversy is more or less serious than previous controversies). 

Roman Catholics believe that the Popes are heads of the Church on earth, that they have universal, immediate, ordinary, personal jurisdiction over all Catholics, that they are infallible when speaking ex cathedra, that even when not speaking so their teachings and rulings are to be given pious assent by the faithful, etc.  Yet, when a Pope teaches something, the people squirm according to their own predilections. 

So, for example, when Pope John Paul II authoritatively taught that women couldn't be ordained to the priesthood, those who supported the prohibition of women's ordination loved and supported the exercise of papal authority, while those who didn't went on about how it was not (clearly) an infallible definition so perhaps another Pope could rule differently, that it only spoke of priests and not deacons, etc. 

A similar thing is happening with AL.  Those who support the proposal to admit divorced and remarried people to Communion are happy to refer to AL as a magisterial document, highlight the Pope's authority and jurisdiction, begin to implement it, and punish those who do not.  Those who oppose the proposal claim that AL is not magisterial, is not a teaching, that Popes are not always infallible, that some should be opposed and formally corrected, etc.  Often, those who are ultramontane on one issue are left-of-Anglican on others. 

Roman Catholics have a love/hate relationship with the Christian East, and which is at play depends on whether our position is agreeable to them.  So, for example, the same crowd that invokes us as an example of liturgical conservatism/traditionalism in order to combat the myriad insanities found in RC churches on any given day will also self-servingly attack us on our "teaching" on divorce and remarriage (which even their own Cardinals do not really understand because they insist on interpreting it through their own theological system rather than learning ours) because it makes them feel good to believe they have not "sold out".   

I don't see "laetitia" in any of this.  What I see is a lot of confusion among people who are united by a belief in the Pope's authority but only put it into practice when the Pope agrees with them.  And then their apologists wish to impose their theological system on us as an element of apostolic faith by pointing to our alleged confusion, lack of authority, doctrinal deviations, etc. because we don't have that belief.

On the one hand, I am sad for them.  On the other hand, they seem to prefer their system as is and wish for us to submit to it: while I wish them well, we could never do such a thing because then we, like them, would be abandoning the Church of Christ and its divinely-revealed faith for a religion of mere man, by mere man, for mere man, as mere man.   
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Offline beebert

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #51 on: February 11, 2017, 03:23:57 PM »
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

Western Christianity went down the drain many centuries ago from an Eastern perspective.
In what way did the West went down the drain? I do not like their theology that much but they do have Augustine who seems to have been the greatest theologian in history.
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Offline Ilyin

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #52 on: February 11, 2017, 04:13:45 PM »
Hello - sorry for coming late to this. The only position for a Catholic these days is sedevacantism or to become Orthodox. I know this because I was there myself. The Roman Catholic Church these days is run by a group of liberal-socialist secular protestants. This is absolutely without doubt whatsoever. Of course there are people like Cardinal Burke, the SSPX and good faithful folk all over, but the mainstream hierarchy and the so-called magisterium are 100% "through the looking glass". To pretend this is not true is casuistry in the extreme. I do feel sorry for the those in the RC church trapped in this dilemma but there is a solution. In Orthodoxy we also have a huge swathe of "go with the flow" anti-Trump, anti-Putin, pro "human rights" and even LGBT modernists - BUT these are not the backbone of the Church and they will die out like a passing fad. Go to Russia and you will see the real Church !  Also - the Church is bigger than any one mere man  - or even group of men, as the absurd "council" in Crete showed. Answer - Come to Orthodoxy! Yours Seraphim

Offline WPM

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #53 on: February 11, 2017, 04:17:15 PM »
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #54 on: February 11, 2017, 04:19:47 PM »
Hello - sorry for coming late to this. The only position for a Catholic these days is sedevacantism or to become Orthodox. I know this because I was there myself. The Roman Catholic Church these days is run by a group of liberal-socialist secular protestants. This is absolutely without doubt whatsoever. Of course there are people like Cardinal Burke, the SSPX and good faithful folk all over, but the mainstream hierarchy and the so-called magisterium are 100% "through the looking glass". To pretend this is not true is casuistry in the extreme. I do feel sorry for the those in the RC church trapped in this dilemma but there is a solution. In Orthodoxy we also have a huge swathe of "go with the flow" anti-Trump, anti-Putin, pro "human rights" and even LGBT modernists - BUT these are not the backbone of the Church and they will die out like a passing fad. Go to Russia and you will see the real Church !  Also - the Church is bigger than any one mere man  - or even group of men, as the absurd "council" in Crete showed. Answer - Come to Orthodoxy! Yours Seraphim

lol. Most laughable post of this thread.
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Offline byhisgrace

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #55 on: February 11, 2017, 05:06:07 PM »
Yeah, when you really get into the details, I fail to see how Papal infallibility solves any of the problems it's supposed to solve or provides any of the reassurance it's supposed to provide.

Roman Catholics believe that the Popes are heads of the Church on earth, that they have universal, immediate, ordinary, personal jurisdiction over all Catholics, that they are infallible when speaking ex cathedra, that even when not speaking so their teachings and rulings are to be given pious assent by the faithful, etc.  Yet, when a Pope teaches something, the people squirm according to their own predilections. 

So, for example, when Pope John Paul II authoritatively taught that women couldn't be ordained to the priesthood, those who supported the prohibition of women's ordination loved and supported the exercise of papal authority, while those who didn't went on about how it was not (clearly) an infallible definition so perhaps another Pope could rule differently, that it only spoke of priests and not deacons, etc. 

A similar thing is happening with AL.  Those who support the proposal to admit divorced and remarried people to Communion are happy to refer to AL as a magisterial document, highlight the Pope's authority and jurisdiction, begin to implement it, and punish those who do not.  Those who oppose the proposal claim that AL is not magisterial, is not a teaching, that Popes are not always infallible, that some should be opposed and formally corrected, etc.  Often, those who are ultramontane on one issue are left-of-Anglican on others. 

Roman Catholics have a love/hate relationship with the Christian East, and which is at play depends on whether our position is agreeable to them.  So, for example, the same crowd that invokes us as an example of liturgical conservatism/traditionalism in order to combat the myriad insanities found in RC churches on any given day will also self-servingly attack us on our "teaching" on divorce and remarriage (which even their own Cardinals do not really understand because they insist on interpreting it through their own theological system rather than learning ours) because it makes them feel good to believe they have not "sold out".   

I don't see "laetitia" in any of this.  What I see is a lot of confusion among people who are united by a belief in the Pope's authority but only put it into practice when the Pope agrees with them.  And then their apologists wish to impose their theological system on us as an element of apostolic faith by pointing to our alleged confusion, lack of authority, doctrinal deviations, etc. because we don't have that belief.
+1000. The hypocrisy of some of their apologetics was one thing I noticed while I was inquiring between Catholicism and Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 05:25:28 PM by byhisgrace »
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Offline WPM

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #56 on: February 11, 2017, 05:41:25 PM »
I think the terms 'Orthodox' and 'Catholic' are interchangable, .. Which is meant to signify the Main Apostolic Church.

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #57 on: February 11, 2017, 05:44:56 PM »
but they do have Augustine who seems to have been the greatest theologian in history.

Nah.
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #58 on: February 11, 2017, 05:57:25 PM »
Your bottom line seems to be: "We have seen it coming all along because papal primacy to the extent the RC demand it is plainly wrong, so Roman Catholicism is intrinsically flawed. It was and is question of time. What happens to a branch cut off a tree?"
I tell you one thing: You are next. They will get you. Modernism and relativism will not stop when they have destroyed large parts of the RC church. This is a huge thing. Orthodoxy may seem immune to you, but it is not. So better stop feeling superior now.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 05:58:24 PM by Lepanto »
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Offline byhisgrace

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #59 on: February 11, 2017, 06:05:29 PM »
I think the terms 'Orthodox' and 'Catholic' are interchangable, .. Which is meant to signify the Main Apostolic Church.
Yes and no. Both Eastern/Oriental Orthodox and the Roman Catholics consider their own Church both "Orthodox" and "Catholic", in the sense that they are the true, universal Church founded by Christ. I was just using the words "Orthodox" and "Catholic" in the conventional sense, i.e. the way most people call each Church, nowadays.
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Offline PJ26

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #60 on: February 11, 2017, 06:06:46 PM »
How does this:

"You are next. They will get you. Modernism and relativism will not stop when they have destroyed large parts of the RC church. This is a huge thing. Orthodoxy may seem immune to you, but it is not. So better stop feeling superior now."

In any way negate the truth of this:

"We have seen it coming all along because papal primacy to the extent the RC demand it is plainly wrong, so Roman Catholicism is intrinsically flawed. It was and is question of time. What happens to a branch cut off a tree?"

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #61 on: February 11, 2017, 06:10:42 PM »
Your bottom line seems to be: "We have seen it coming all along because papal primacy to the extent the RC demand it is plainly wrong, so Roman Catholicism is intrinsically flawed. It was and is question of time. What happens to a branch cut off a tree?"
I tell you one thing: You are next. They will get you. Modernism and relativism will not stop when they have destroyed large parts of the RC church. This is a huge thing. Orthodoxy may seem immune to you, but it is not. So better stop feeling superior now.

To whom are you responding? 
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #62 on: February 11, 2017, 06:11:30 PM »
How does this:

"You are next. They will get you. Modernism and relativism will not stop when they have destroyed large parts of the RC church. This is a huge thing. Orthodoxy may seem immune to you, but it is not. So better stop feeling superior now."

In any way negate the truth of this:

"We have seen it coming all along because papal primacy to the extent the RC demand it is plainly wrong, so Roman Catholicism is intrinsically flawed. It was and is question of time. What happens to a branch cut off a tree?"

Obviously, I do not think that the three sentences immediately above are true. This was just condensing what several previous posts said.
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Offline WPM

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #63 on: February 11, 2017, 06:13:02 PM »
It seems there is some Schadenfreude .
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

I derive no pleasure from observing what the Roman Catholics are going through; I believe it is an inevitable consequence of their theological system (whether or not the current controversy is more or less serious than previous controversies). 

Roman Catholics believe that the Popes are heads of the Church on earth, that they have universal, immediate, ordinary, personal jurisdiction over all Catholics, that they are infallible when speaking ex cathedra, that even when not speaking so their teachings and rulings are to be given pious assent by the faithful, etc.  Yet, when a Pope teaches something, the people squirm according to their own predilections. 

So, for example, when Pope John Paul II authoritatively taught that women couldn't be ordained to the priesthood, those who supported the prohibition of women's ordination loved and supported the exercise of papal authority, while those who didn't went on about how it was not (clearly) an infallible definition so perhaps another Pope could rule differently, that it only spoke of priests and not deacons, etc. 

A similar thing is happening with AL.  Those who support the proposal to admit divorced and remarried people to Communion are happy to refer to AL as a magisterial document, highlight the Pope's authority and jurisdiction, begin to implement it, and punish those who do not.  Those who oppose the proposal claim that AL is not magisterial, is not a teaching, that Popes are not always infallible, that some should be opposed and formally corrected, etc.  Often, those who are ultramontane on one issue are left-of-Anglican on others. 

Roman Catholics have a love/hate relationship with the Christian East, and which is at play depends on whether our position is agreeable to them.  So, for example, the same crowd that invokes us as an example of liturgical conservatism/traditionalism in order to combat the myriad insanities found in RC churches on any given day will also self-servingly attack us on our "teaching" on divorce and remarriage (which even their own Cardinals do not really understand because they insist on interpreting it through their own theological system rather than learning ours) because it makes them feel good to believe they have not "sold out".   

I don't see "laetitia" in any of this.  What I see is a lot of confusion among people who are united by a belief in the Pope's authority but only put it into practice when the Pope agrees with them.  And then their apologists wish to impose their theological system on us as an element of apostolic faith by pointing to our alleged confusion, lack of authority, doctrinal deviations, etc. because we don't have that belief.

On the one hand, I am sad for them.  On the other hand, they seem to prefer their system as is and wish for us to submit to it: while I wish them well, we could never do such a thing because then we, like them, would be abandoning the Church of Christ and its divinely-revealed faith for a religion of mere man, by mere man, for mere man, as mere man.   


So . . .

The Catholic Pope is speaking ex cathedra when clarifying to the Catholics? ...

Offline Luka

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #64 on: February 11, 2017, 06:15:41 PM »
Your bottom line seems to be: "We have seen it coming all along because papal primacy to the extent the RC demand it is plainly wrong, so Roman Catholicism is intrinsically flawed. It was and is question of time. What happens to a branch cut off a tree?"
I tell you one thing: You are next. They will get you. Modernism and relativism will not stop when they have destroyed large parts of the RC church. This is a huge thing. Orthodoxy may seem immune to you, but it is not. So better stop feeling superior now.
Catholic and Orthodox communities have their own unique issues. Unfortunately just as the Orthodox blame Papacy for all the Catholic problems, Catholics blame Orthodox rejection of Papacy for the Orthodox problems. It's a pity that in the midst of this so few are eager to repent from the haughty spirit of "I told you". If we don't support each other in prayer and action, we will all go down the drain confident of our own superiority. And in this humiliation there will be no Christ-like glory.

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #65 on: February 11, 2017, 06:20:31 PM »
Your bottom line seems to be: "We have seen it coming all along because papal primacy to the extent the RC demand it is plainly wrong, so Roman Catholicism is intrinsically flawed. It was and is question of time. What happens to a branch cut off a tree?"
I tell you one thing: You are next. They will get you. Modernism and relativism will not stop when they have destroyed large parts of the RC church. This is a huge thing. Orthodoxy may seem immune to you, but it is not. So better stop feeling superior now.
Catholic and Orthodox communities have their own unique issues. Unfortunately just as the Orthodox blame Papacy for all the Catholic problems, Catholics blame Orthodox rejection of Papacy for the Orthodox problems. It's a pity that in the midst of this so few are eager to repent from the haughty spirit of "I told you". If we don't support each other in prayer and action, we will all go down the drain confident of our own superiority. And in this humiliation there will be no Christ-like glory.

Exactly.
I thank you for this.
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Offline WPM

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #66 on: February 11, 2017, 06:21:00 PM »
It seems there is some Schadenfreude .
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

I don't think anyone explained what Schadenfreude actually is? ...

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #67 on: February 11, 2017, 06:23:44 PM »
I tell you one thing: You are next. They will get you. Modernism and relativism will not stop when they have destroyed large parts of the RC church. This is a huge thing. Orthodoxy may seem immune to you, but it is not. So better stop feeling superior now.

Why worry so much if you believe that the gates of hell won't prevail over the Church?
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #68 on: February 11, 2017, 06:24:08 PM »
Your bottom line seems to be: "We have seen it coming all along because papal primacy to the extent the RC demand it is plainly wrong, so Roman Catholicism is intrinsically flawed. It was and is question of time. What happens to a branch cut off a tree?"
I tell you one thing: You are next. They will get you. Modernism and relativism will not stop when they have destroyed large parts of the RC church. This is a huge thing. Orthodoxy may seem immune to you, but it is not. So better stop feeling superior now.

I always love it when my coreligionists start complaining about "modernism." I often wonder if they forgot about the Thirty Years War.
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Offline Luka

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #69 on: February 11, 2017, 06:29:15 PM »
I tell you one thing: You are next. They will get you. Modernism and relativism will not stop when they have destroyed large parts of the RC church. This is a huge thing. Orthodoxy may seem immune to you, but it is not. So better stop feeling superior now.

Why worry so much if you believe that the gates of hell won't prevail over the Church?
They still can prevail over much of the Church bringing spiritual destruction of the faithful, can't they?

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #70 on: February 11, 2017, 06:32:43 PM »
I tell you one thing: You are next. They will get you. Modernism and relativism will not stop when they have destroyed large parts of the RC church. This is a huge thing. Orthodoxy may seem immune to you, but it is not. So better stop feeling superior now.

Why worry so much if you believe that the gates of hell won't prevail over the Church?
They still can prevail over much of the Church bringing spiritual destruction of the faithful, can't they?

There is something to Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI's suggestion of a smaller but purer Church.

« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 06:33:39 PM by Cyrillic »
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Offline byhisgrace

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #71 on: February 11, 2017, 06:33:43 PM »
Your bottom line seems to be: "We have seen it coming all along because papal primacy to the extent the RC demand it is plainly wrong, so Roman Catholicism is intrinsically flawed. It was and is question of time. What happens to a branch cut off a tree?"
I tell you one thing: You are next. They will get you. Modernism and relativism will not stop when they have destroyed large parts of the RC church. This is a huge thing. Orthodoxy may seem immune to you, but it is not. So better stop feeling superior now.
Catholic and Orthodox communities have their own unique issues. Unfortunately just as the Orthodox blame Papacy for all the Catholic problems, Catholics blame Orthodox rejection of Papacy for the Orthodox problems. It's a pity that in the midst of this so few are eager to repent from the haughty spirit of "I told you". If we don't support each other in prayer and action, we will all go down the drain confident of our own superiority. And in this humiliation there will be no Christ-like glory.
I support this post, wholeheartedly. I disagree with RC teaching, but I don't feel the need to poke fun at internal problems in the RCC at every opportunity. I don't feel superior to other Christians just because I am Orthdox and not X,Y, or Z. Perhaps one of my previous posts was polemical, but it was not out of a "My Church is better than yours" attitude, but out of a reaction to the flawed apologetics and superiority complex expressed by some (not saying all, or even most) of the pro-papacy apologists I have seen in the past.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 06:50:33 PM by byhisgrace »
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Offline Luka

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #72 on: February 11, 2017, 06:38:59 PM »
I tell you one thing: You are next. They will get you. Modernism and relativism will not stop when they have destroyed large parts of the RC church. This is a huge thing. Orthodoxy may seem immune to you, but it is not. So better stop feeling superior now.

Why worry so much if you believe that the gates of hell won't prevail over the Church?
They still can prevail over much of the Church bringing spiritual destruction of the faithful, can't they?

There is something to Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI's suggestion of a smaller but purer Church.
And yet Pope Benedict spoke not of spiritual deterioration, but of external afflictions and pressures of the times. Lepanto, and every person loving the members of Christ's Body, is worried about the former, because this is what brings true loss.

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #73 on: February 11, 2017, 06:48:31 PM »
It seems there is some Schadenfreude .
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

I don't think anyone explained what Schadenfreude actually is? ...
It is German. I would paraphrase as "enjoying if something bad happens to another person".
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #74 on: February 11, 2017, 07:07:29 PM »
I tell you one thing: You are next. They will get you. Modernism and relativism will not stop when they have destroyed large parts of the RC church. This is a huge thing. Orthodoxy may seem immune to you, but it is not. So better stop feeling superior now.

Why worry so much if you believe that the gates of hell won't prevail over the Church?
They still can prevail over much of the Church bringing spiritual destruction of the faithful, can't they?

There is something to Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI's suggestion of a smaller but purer Church.
And yet Pope Benedict spoke not of spiritual deterioration, but of external afflictions and pressures of the times. Lepanto, and every person loving the members of Christ's Body, is worried about the former, because this is what brings true loss.
what is "Christ's body"?

We need to be honest with our disagreements.  This not triumphalism.  This is being honest with the disagreeements we have based on the discussions we had to try to comprehend the unnecessary doctrine of papal infallibility.
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Offline PJ26

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #75 on: February 11, 2017, 07:08:06 PM »
Got an email from someone along the lines of what Lepanto wrote above that Amoris Laetitia is not magisterial.  So I just wanted to point out a couple of things.

1. Pope Francis said that the interpretation of Amoris Laetitia by Cardinal Schonborn of Vienna was the definitive one.

"On the flight returning from Greece, Pope Francis was asked if the Apostolic Exhortation contained a 'change in discipline that governs access to the sacraments' for Catholics who are divorced and remarried. The Pope replied, 'I can say yes, period.' Adding, however, that this would be 'too small' of an answer, the Pope then urged reading the presentation of Cardinal Schönborn, calling Schönborn a 'great theologian who knows the doctrine of the Church.'  'In that presentation your question will have the answer,' the pope concluded."

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/pope-says-schonborn-interpretation-on-communion-for-remarried-is-the-final

2. Cardinal Schonborn said the following:

"It is obvious that this is an act of the magisterium: It is an apostolic exhortation. It is clear that the pope is exercising here his role of pastor, of master and teacher of the faith, after having benefited from the consultation of the two synods. I have no doubt that it must be said that this is a pontifical document of great quality, an authentic teaching of sacra doctrina, which leads us back to the contemporary relevance of the Word of God."

https://cnsblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/07/the-teaching-authority-of-amoris-laetitia/

So the Pope says that AL contains a change in sacramental discipline and directs individuals to Cardinal Schonborn who says it's magisterial, "an authentic teaching of sacra doctrina" but despite this some are still able to conclude something completely to the contrary.

All of this reminds me of an episode of the Simpsons years ago.  Homer, trying to one up Flanders, has a BBQ with this beautiful pig, but the pig is on a cart with wheels and the cart ends up rolling away with the pig.  The pig goes through one dirty place after another with Homer and Bart chasing behind and Homer desperately maintaining "it's still good, it's still good." 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MWvevkE0kAI

The only difference is that at least Homer finally accepted the reality of the situation and gave up.  When will AL deniers accept the truth?  Perhaps when pigs fly. ;)


Offline WPM

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #76 on: February 11, 2017, 07:21:53 PM »
Maybe I shouldn't take words on a forum seriously anymore.

Offline J Michael

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #77 on: February 11, 2017, 07:28:26 PM »
Maybe I shouldn't take words on a forum seriously anymore.

Good idea.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #78 on: February 12, 2017, 12:20:42 AM »
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

Western Christianity went down the drain many centuries ago from an Eastern perspective.
In what way did the West went down the drain? I do not like their theology that much but they do have Augustine who seems to have been the greatest theologian in history.

Augustine is not a theologian in the Orthodox Church. The theologians are St. Gregory the Theologian and St. Simeon the Theologian. He also is heavily influenced by prophet Mani.
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #79 on: February 12, 2017, 05:48:19 AM »
Got an email from someone along the lines of what Lepanto wrote above that Amoris Laetitia is not magisterial.  So I just wanted to point out a couple of things.

1. Pope Francis said that the interpretation of Amoris Laetitia by Cardinal Schonborn of Vienna was the definitive one.

"On the flight returning from Greece, Pope Francis was asked if the Apostolic Exhortation contained a 'change in discipline that governs access to the sacraments' for Catholics who are divorced and remarried. The Pope replied, 'I can say yes, period.' Adding, however, that this would be 'too small' of an answer, the Pope then urged reading the presentation of Cardinal Schönborn, calling Schönborn a 'great theologian who knows the doctrine of the Church.'  'In that presentation your question will have the answer,' the pope concluded."

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/pope-says-schonborn-interpretation-on-communion-for-remarried-is-the-final

2. Cardinal Schonborn said the following:

"It is obvious that this is an act of the magisterium: It is an apostolic exhortation. It is clear that the pope is exercising here his role of pastor, of master and teacher of the faith, after having benefited from the consultation of the two synods. I have no doubt that it must be said that this is a pontifical document of great quality, an authentic teaching of sacra doctrina, which leads us back to the contemporary relevance of the Word of God."

https://cnsblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/07/the-teaching-authority-of-amoris-laetitia/

So the Pope says that AL contains a change in sacramental discipline and directs individuals to Cardinal Schonborn who says it's magisterial, "an authentic teaching of sacra doctrina" but despite this some are still able to conclude something completely to the contrary.

All of this reminds me of an episode of the Simpsons years ago.  Homer, trying to one up Flanders, has a BBQ with this beautiful pig, but the pig is on a cart with wheels and the cart ends up rolling away with the pig.  The pig goes through one dirty place after another with Homer and Bart chasing behind and Homer desperately maintaining "it's still good, it's still good." 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MWvevkE0kAI

The only difference is that at least Homer finally accepted the reality of the situation and gave up.  When will AL deniers accept the truth?  Perhaps when pigs fly. ;)

Did you really just make a  comparison between a pig getting dirty in a cartoon and RC pastoral guidelines about the reception of the Eucharist (among others)? Strange sense of humor...
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 05:49:37 AM by Lepanto »
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Offline PJ26

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #80 on: February 12, 2017, 07:53:27 AM »
Well, what's the big deal if it's just an unnecessary and irrelevant document to be ignored as you say?  But no, my point was about Homer's inability to accept the truth despite the reality of the situation.  I mean the pope himself says it's a change in sacramental discipline for the divorced and remarried.  He refers further discussions to Cardinal Schonborn who calls it sacred doctrine.  The bishops conferences of two countries, specifically citing Francis and Amoris Laetitia, have begun to allow communion for the divorced and remarried and Francis has not corrected them.  Four Cardinals initially privately then publicly submit their "dubia" on AL to Francis - seemingly putting a lot on the line for an unnecessary and irrelevant document they really should just ignore - and Francis has refused to respond.  I mean really what more do you need?  Fill in the blank.  If Francis said or did ___________ I would accept the reality of the situation. 

Offline The young fogey

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #81 on: February 12, 2017, 08:19:36 AM »
I'm sure the fine priests of the British ordinariate won't tell Petros anything different from what Lepanto and I have written.

Quote
Papal infallibility is a tough pill for me to swallow because I don't know which Papal statements to take seriously and which to reject. Are Jews reprobate? Most Popes say yes, some Popes say no. Is Purgatory a literal fire? Popes disagree. Is the liturgy irreformable? Popes disagree.

Because Popes have fallible opinions. None of the above is doctrine. The Pope's office (vs. the Pope's person) is part of the church's teaching authority, which is about defending our doctrine.

Quote
As for Amoris Laetitia - it is not an infallible document.

Case closed. If you want to leave the church, turning your back on us as apostates or reverting to Protestantism, don't do it because of Amoris Laetitia.

Quote
If I wasn't Orthodox, I would probably not be a Christian.

If I wasn't Catholic, I would probably not be a Christian.

Sedevacantism is possible. Despite the upsetment about Pope Francis, it's not happening now.

Quote
Have you not read what's going on in Malta and Germany?

Episcopal conferences can't define, let alone change (no one can), doctrine. Nor do the Pope's opinions, and Francis knows that. "A few bad churchmen."

The argument thus far: "Catholics are hypocritical about divorce and remarriage so join a faith that's upfront about blessing adultery for pastoral reasons."

Some Catholics are hypocritical about divorce and remarriage. Catholicism isn't.

Quote
In Orthodoxy we also have a huge swath of "go with the flow" anti-Trump, anti-Putin, pro "human rights" and even LGBT modernists - BUT these are not the backbone of the Church and they will die out like a passing fad.

Same here.

Quote
Roman Catholics have a love/hate relationship with the Christian East, and which is at play depends on whether our position is agreeable to them.  So, for example, the same crowd that invokes us as an example of liturgical conservatism/traditionalism in order to combat the myriad insanities found in RC churches on any given day will also self-servingly attack us on our "teaching" on divorce and remarriage...

Yes. Whether it agrees with our doctrine.
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #82 on: February 12, 2017, 08:55:16 AM »
I tell you one thing: You are next. They will get you. Modernism and relativism will not stop when they have destroyed large parts of the RC church. This is a huge thing. Orthodoxy may seem immune to you, but it is not. So better stop feeling superior now.

Why worry so much if you believe that the gates of hell won't prevail over the Church?
Exactly. We have survived two thousand years of attempted heresy, why panic now?

Popes have had wrong opinions before. Nothing new here.

Oh and orthodoxy is still a very strong presence in the Church.
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #83 on: February 12, 2017, 09:26:22 AM »
Quote
I tell you one thing: You are next. They will get you. Modernism and relativism will not stop when they have destroyed large parts of the RC church. This is a huge thing. Orthodoxy may seem immune to you, but it is not. So better stop feeling superior now.

It's already happened: recent Orthodox acceptance of contraception.

Quote
Why worry so much if you believe that the gates of hell won't prevail over the Church?

I'm not worried about the church. I'm worried that one of ours, Petros, is considering committing a grave error by leaving it.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #84 on: February 12, 2017, 09:29:43 AM »
Quote
I tell you one thing: You are next. They will get you. Modernism and relativism will not stop when they have destroyed large parts of the RC church. This is a huge thing. Orthodoxy may seem immune to you, but it is not. So better stop feeling superior now.

It's already happened: recent Orthodox acceptance of contraception.

As has been established many times before, your church accepts contraception too (they call it NFP).
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline WPM

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #85 on: February 12, 2017, 09:35:56 AM »
Quote
If I wasn't Orthodox, I would probably not be a Christian.

If I wasn't Catholic, I would probably not be a Christian.

Good for you. You're Catholic. Moving on now  :)

Offline The young fogey

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #86 on: February 12, 2017, 09:43:04 AM »
Of course I accept the church's distinction between NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial birth control (available at death merchants Planned Parenthood).

I see one set of basic beliefs, which the Catholic Church, including the Pope, has always been faithful to. (Images are an option, not required by divine law, but church law, discipline, can require them in a rite.) The Orthodox have the first seven councils of our doctrine, so in that sense all their doctrine is true, but that doesn't mean only they have retained the truth, so the Byzantine-centric view required for Western Rite Orthodoxy doesn't interest me in the least.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #87 on: February 12, 2017, 09:52:37 AM »
Of course I accept the church's distinction between NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial birth control (available at death merchants Planned Parenthood).

Allowing a calendar/ mucus tests to dictate when you have sex is just as artificial as anything else. You are still trying to have sex without conceiving a child. If you can't see how this is a major departure from the tradition you brag about that only speaks to your historical ignorance.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline The young fogey

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #88 on: February 12, 2017, 09:55:00 AM »
I accept the church's distinction. Non-Catholics now often don't. Not news.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #89 on: February 12, 2017, 10:07:25 AM »
I accept the church's distinction. Non-Catholics now often don't. Not news.

It was not "the church's" distinction until the 20th century. In 50 years people like you will be speaking of Amoris Laetitia as "the church's" teaching on divorce and communion. Quite a moving target, "the church's teaching."
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles