Author Topic: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith  (Read 18287 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline benjohn146

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 476
    • Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church, Belleville, Ontario, Canada
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Metropolis of Toronto
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #225 on: February 24, 2017, 12:13:28 PM »
Apostasy is grave matter.

Is converting from Catholicism to Orthodoxy really apostasy?

Yes, if we're talking about 1200s Catholicism.

For RC, yes. There is no salvation outside the RCC according to them.

Ok so the 21st century version of RC is not the same as in the 1200s? Is it a different religion?
St Makarios, pray for us.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Ο προκαθήμενος της Ορθοδοξίας - The President of Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,278
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #226 on: February 24, 2017, 12:17:30 PM »
^It's certainly trying.
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline PJ26

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 179
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Russian - is there another one? ;)
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #227 on: February 24, 2017, 01:05:15 PM »
Lepanto,

I'm blowing the whole thing up? Really, me, guy on the internet, am blowing the whole thing up?  It's not like four Cardinals presented the pope with a number of doubts regarding the orthodoxy of AL, or various Catholic outlets, including EWTN, are talking about the real possibility of a schism as a result of AL.  It's just me.  OK.  Well, good thing that I, at least, am calling attention to the matter, since it is, as you say, "a serious problem."

But if it is a serious problem, what is the solution?  Just stay RC according to you - trad or mainstream. That, in itself, is kind of an interesting statement since there is such a big difference between the two.  But anyway, what you are advocating, simply put, is denial.  Just keep doing what you're doing.  Nothing to see here.  No!  God gave you the gift of reason and you have an obligation to seek the truth.

AL has exposed clear contradictions in what Catholicism teaches that go to the very heart of what Catholicism says it is.  Even if I'm not divorced and "remarried" those contradictions do effect me, if I am Catholic and they show Catholicism to be something other than what it says it is, i.e. the true church.  You just are unwilling or unable to confront that reality. 

You asked me if I was trying to convince myself.  To be honest, I think you're the one trying to convince yourself.  You say you have an Orthodox wife.  I assume she takes her faith seriously otherwise she would probably just convert to Catholicism and go with you to church for the sake of harmony and convenience.  But she isn't and maybe that's got you wondering.  Maybe that, along with what's going on now, has caused you some doubts.  I mean why come on an Orthodox site and dig in your heals to the degree you are doing?  Toward the end of my journey to Orthodoxy I did something similar.  I went on to Catholic sites, sometimes making the argument as a trad Catholic, sometimes as a defender of the pope - not to deceive mind you, but to put down my ideas, to see what others said, how they reacted, and then try to determine where the truth lied.  I wonder if you aren't doing the same.  Only you know that.

As far as being disobedient, I don't believe anyone has accused you of that.  However, I do think you are in denial.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 01:07:04 PM by PJ26 »

Offline Lepanto

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 334
  • Faith: Roman Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Munich and Freising
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #228 on: February 24, 2017, 03:35:41 PM »
@PJ 26: This got me thinking.
I wrote a reply, deleted it because it was crap. No more equivocating.
The truth is: You pretty much hit the nail. With all you wrote. Really.
I have learned the hard way that my wife puts her faith first, I come only second.
This hurt and impressed me at the same time.
AL is but a symptom of a larger problem I can't quite grasp.
To be honest: I have no clue what to do. What if Orthodoxy was right after all?
I have no idea what that means. I am confused....
una cum famulo tuo Papa nostro et Antistite nostro et omnibus orthodoxis atque catholicæ et apostolicæ fidei cultoribus

Offline benjohn146

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 476
    • Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church, Belleville, Ontario, Canada
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Metropolis of Toronto
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #229 on: February 24, 2017, 03:45:20 PM »
@PJ 26: This got me thinking.
I wrote a reply, deleted it because it was crap. No more equivocating.
The truth is: You pretty much hit the nail. With all you wrote. Really.
I have learned the hard way that my wife puts her faith first, I come only second.
This hurt and impressed me at the same time.
AL is but a symptom of a larger problem I can't quite grasp.
To be honest: I have no clue what to do. What if Orthodoxy was right after all?
I have no idea what that means. I am confused....

Perhaps that following your wife to church this week end, might shed more light on your confusion ;)
St Makarios, pray for us.

Offline PJ26

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 179
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Russian - is there another one? ;)
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #230 on: February 24, 2017, 04:10:22 PM »
Lepanto,

Well first, it took a lot of courage to write what you wrote.  So, you deserve a lot of respect just for that.

Second, stop equivocating, stop lying to yourself.  Have an open mind and heart.  Pray.  Read.  Search for the truth wherever that leads.  If it affirms you in your Catholicism, ok, but you owe it to yourself, and perhaps to your wife, to make the journey.  And if you take your faith seriously, you just can't ignore everything that is going on with AL right now.  You just can't.

I wish I could bottle everything I went through in my conversion, all the prayer, the reading, the tears, the fights with my wife - seven years from beginning to end - and say "Here you go buddy.  Here's the answer.  Orthodoxy.  Trust me."  Give you a big hug and send you on your way.  And if you want to accept that you can, but maybe you need to go through the struggle for yourself.  I don't know.

My wife and I went through a pretty rough time.  About two years.  I honestly didn't think we would make it, but we did.  Every marriage is its own little world, but if you really love each other and are committed to making it work, you will succeed.  But for the record, I'm with your wife - the Faith comes first.  If my wife had said "stay Catholic or it's over" I still would have become Orthodox.  That's how much I believe in the truth of Orthodoxy.  But again that is something you/the two of you need to work out.

We seem to be in similar situations on the same road, maybe you're at the beginning and I'm at the end.  If there is any advice I can give, just let me know.  PM me or whatever.  And be assured of my prayers for you.

:)

Offline Lepanto

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 334
  • Faith: Roman Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Munich and Freising
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #231 on: February 24, 2017, 05:35:58 PM »
Thanks!
Seems I have to do lots thinking, guess also have to do more reading.
Likely I will ask quite some questions here.
Let us see. I truly don't know right now.
I only know it cannot go on like this. It is constantly nagging at me.
AL... plain crazy that it should trigger such things.

« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 05:43:41 PM by Lepanto »
una cum famulo tuo Papa nostro et Antistite nostro et omnibus orthodoxis atque catholicæ et apostolicæ fidei cultoribus

Offline petros22

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
  • Faith: Struggling Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #232 on: February 25, 2017, 10:54:25 AM »
Quote
I only know it cannot go on like this. It is constantly nagging at me.

I know what you mean. This whole thing is gnawing at my soul. But there are probably no easy answers here.
Almighty God, unto whom all hearts be open, all desires known, and from whom no secretes are hid: cleanse the thoughts of our hearts by the inspiration of thy holy spirit, that we may perfectly love thee, and worthily magnify thy holy name: through Christ our Lord. Amen.

Offline Charles Martel

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,805
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #233 on: February 26, 2017, 08:14:04 PM »
Quote
I only know it cannot go on like this. It is constantly nagging at me.

I know what you mean. This whole thing is gnawing at my soul. But there are probably no easy answers here.
The easy answer is the Church has gone through worse heresies and challenges than this and She still here.

This is nothing new, there were times like during the Arian heresy, there was only a few true believers  that held the Faith together.

We will survive this as well. the gates of hell shall not prevail!

« Last Edit: February 26, 2017, 08:14:45 PM by Charles Martel »
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline tcolon90

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 99
  • Faith: The Way
  • Jurisdiction: + Michael - Diocese NY & NJ
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #234 on: February 26, 2017, 08:44:24 PM »
Quote
I only know it cannot go on like this. It is constantly nagging at me.

I know what you mean. This whole thing is gnawing at my soul. But there are probably no easy answers here.
The easy answer is the Church has gone through worse heresies and challenges than this and She still here.

This is nothing new, there were times like during the Arian heresy, there was only a few true believers  that held the Faith together.

We will survive this as well. the gates of hell shall not prevail!

They also didn't have a bloated papal system to complicate things either, which is the issue underlying this whole thing.
"For where the body is, the eagles will gather."

Offline J Michael

  • Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,549
  • Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!
  • Faith: Cafeteria CHRISTIAN Heretic
  • Jurisdiction: Here and now (well...sometimes...)
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #235 on: February 28, 2017, 04:24:10 PM »
^It's certainly trying.

"Trying" as in attempting to be a different religion?  Or "trying" as in "difficult or annoying; hard to endure"?  Or both? :laugh:
"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Charles Martel

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,805
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #236 on: April 23, 2017, 08:27:34 PM »
The pope cannot change doctrine; 8)

‘The pope has not, will not, and cannot change Revelation’: Cardinal Müller

April 21, 2017 (LifeSiteNews) -- The question about Communion for civilly-divorced-and-remarried Catholics can only be approached from the “perspective of the fullness of the teaching of the Church” and the Pope “cannot” change that teaching, Cardinal Gerhard Müller says in a new interview.

“The pope has not, will not, and cannot change Revelation. Some claim that the pope has changed the foundations of Church morality and has relativized the sacrament of holy matrimony. This he would not and cannot do,” he said during an interview in Poland with Aleteia that was published today.


https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/the-pope-has-not-will-not-and-cannot-change-revelation-vatican-doctrinal-ch
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Charles Martel

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,805
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #237 on: April 23, 2017, 08:34:32 PM »
Quote
I only know it cannot go on like this. It is constantly nagging at me.

I know what you mean. This whole thing is gnawing at my soul. But there are probably no easy answers here.
The easy answer is the Church has gone through worse heresies and challenges than this and She still here.

This is nothing new, there were times like during the Arian heresy, there was only a few true believers  that held the Faith together.

We will survive this as well. the gates of hell shall not prevail!

They also didn't have a bloated papal system to complicate things either, which is the issue underlying this whole thing.
Complicate things? Actually that "bloated" papal system clarifies things. The buck stops with the pope and the hierarchial  system keeps things in order, especially on doctrinal and dogmatic issues. Otherwise you have a bunch of chiefs with  their own  rules for everybody like you do in the East or 30 thousand "churches" all with their own little "popes" like the prottys.

Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline ErmyCath

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 249
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #238 on: April 23, 2017, 09:17:06 PM »
Quote
I only know it cannot go on like this. It is constantly nagging at me.

I know what you mean. This whole thing is gnawing at my soul. But there are probably no easy answers here.
The easy answer is the Church has gone through worse heresies and challenges than this and She still here.

This is nothing new, there were times like during the Arian heresy, there was only a few true believers  that held the Faith together.

We will survive this as well. the gates of hell shall not prevail!

They also didn't have a bloated papal system to complicate things either, which is the issue underlying this whole thing.
Complicate things? Actually that "bloated" papal system clarifies things. The buck stops with the pope and the hierarchial  system keeps things in order, especially on doctrinal and dogmatic issues. Otherwise you have a bunch of chiefs with  their own  rules for everybody like you do in the East or 30 thousand "churches" all with their own little "popes" like the prottys.

And the pope has now clarified that adultery isn't always mortal sin. And that people living in an objective state of adultery can receive Communion without repenting.

He's also clarified that everyone's conscience is their supreme guide, even when not properly formed. So the pope has said that everyone is basically their own little pope when it comes to morality.
"You must have an opinion on everything and loudly confront everyone with it." - Cyrillic

Offline PJ26

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 179
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Russian - is there another one? ;)
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #239 on: April 24, 2017, 02:31:03 PM »
Charles,

If the pope cannot change doctrine as you maintain, then the following is still true I assume:

1. The individual who has a sacramental marriage, divorces his or her spouse, and civilly "remarries" is guilty of adultery.
2. Adultery is a mortal sin.
3. To receive Communion in a state of mortal sin is itself a mortal sin
4. To die in a state of mortal sin condemns one to eternal damnation

And, if the buck stops with the pope, then isn't Pope Francis knowingly and directly responsible for the damnation of numerous souls via commission when he himself told the bishops of Buenos Aires that there were cases in which the divorced and civilly "remarried" could commune and via omission by not correcting the local churches in Malta and Germany where the bishops' conferences have begun allowing people who are divorced and civilly "remarried" to go to Communion?

Offline Charles Martel

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,805
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #240 on: April 26, 2017, 05:22:37 AM »
Quote
[And the pope has now clarified that adultery isn't always mortal sin. And that people living in an objective state of adultery can receive Communion without repenting./quote] Well this guy has said a lot of stupid things about everything else, so why leave adultery out? This is what we get when they elect a Jesuit from the commie  school of theology school. he fits right in with the rest of commie/marxist -christianity of today....." Hey man, don't worry worry about getting married, you can shack-up and sleep together, it's ok. I'm ok, you're ok, we're all ok, gawd still lubs us, he knows your heart". ::)

What a bunch of loaded crap. ::)

Catholicism was the last hold-out for any kind of respect for and of the [ indissolubility of marriage /i] of any kind whatsoever.

By the time this hippy-pope is done with us (if he even is pope) we'll be no different than you guys with your three srtikes and your out marriages or the 30thousand protty "churches" who make up any kind of rules as they go along. You know, whatever they "feel" that day or whatever they "feel" some quote form the bibble that is convenient for them at the time.

Most depressing itz.

Quote
He's also clarified that everyone's conscience is their supreme guide, even when not properly formed
Yea, haven't we heard this mantra our whole lives......."Let your conscience be your guide, my son". ::)

Tell me, where is this written anywhere in sacred scripture or tradition? when did any of the popes or church fathers ever give us any inclination to let our conscience "guide" us? I thought it was our human nature (conscience) that got us into trouble most of the time? But, now we have a pope pushing this modernist garbage about listeneing to our "conscience" and not church teaching and doctrine, much less any respect and reverence for the sacraments. We might as well start tossing them out like the protty's as well. They certainly don't mean anything anymore, not even to the pope. Like I said, depressing.

Quote
So the pope has said that everyone is basically their own little pope when it comes to morality.
Well, at least this one does. But, again. he cannot change doctrine. The minute he pushes this heresy, he ceases to be pope. I pray this does not happen.

I'm trying not to "judge" the pope, but as you can see, I'm vexed about this issue. And i'm not the only one who is or wants clarity from the pope's offical position on these maritial and adultery "issues";

https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2017/03/27/burke-says-pope-must-answer-amoris-questions/
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Charles Martel

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,805
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #241 on: April 26, 2017, 05:30:58 AM »
Charles,

If the pope cannot change doctrine as you maintain, then the following is still true I assume:

1. The individual who has a sacramental marriage, divorces his or her spouse, and civilly "remarries" is guilty of adultery.
2. Adultery is a mortal sin.
3. To receive Communion in a state of mortal sin is itself a mortal sin
4. To die in a state of mortal sin condemns one to eternal damnation

And, if the buck stops with the pope, then isn't Pope Francis knowingly and directly responsible for the damnation of numerous souls via commission when he himself told the bishops of Buenos Aires that there were cases in which the divorced and civilly "remarried" could commune and via omission by not correcting the local churches in Malta and Germany where the bishops' conferences have begun allowing people who are divorced and civilly "remarried" to go to Communion?
Read my post above, he cannot change Church doctrine no matter what he tells the bishops of Bueno Aires, the bishops of Malta or anyone else. the minute he does, he ceases to be pope. He cannot not change Church teachings on sacrments  of Matrimony, Confession or the Eucharist. But, it sure looks like he's trying.

We are truly in an Henry the VIII momment here in the Catholic Church.


Hopefully we have some St John the Baptist's and St. John Fischer's in the clergy start standing up for marriage.


Otherwise, they died for nothing.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,321
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic Church
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #242 on: April 26, 2017, 07:53:59 AM »
Charles,

If the pope cannot change doctrine as you maintain, then the following is still true I assume:

1. The individual who has a sacramental marriage, divorces his or her spouse, and civilly "remarries" is guilty of adultery.
2. Adultery is a mortal sin.
3. To receive Communion in a state of mortal sin is itself a mortal sin
4. To die in a state of mortal sin condemns one to eternal damnation

And, if the buck stops with the pope, then isn't Pope Francis knowingly and directly responsible for the damnation of numerous souls via commission when he himself told the bishops of Buenos Aires that there were cases in which the divorced and civilly "remarried" could commune and via omission by not correcting the local churches in Malta and Germany where the bishops' conferences have begun allowing people who are divorced and civilly "remarried" to go to Communion?
Read my post above, he cannot change Church doctrine no matter what he tells the bishops of Bueno Aires, the bishops of Malta or anyone else. the minute he does, he ceases to be pope. He cannot not change Church teachings on sacrments  of Matrimony, Confession or the Eucharist. But, it sure looks like he's trying.

We are truly in an Henry the VIII momment here in the Catholic Church.


Hopefully we have some St John the Baptist's and St. John Fischer's in the clergy start standing up for marriage.


Otherwise, they died for nothing.

Is "Saint" John Paul II allowed to do so, but not Francis?
This profile is defunct as of 11/8/2017. I created it before Orthodoxy, and have used it after Orthodoxy.

I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

I will likely lurk on this forum under a different name.

Offline benjohn146

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 476
    • Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church, Belleville, Ontario, Canada
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Metropolis of Toronto
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #243 on: April 26, 2017, 08:00:09 AM »
Charles,

If the pope cannot change doctrine as you maintain, then the following is still true I assume:

1. The individual who has a sacramental marriage, divorces his or her spouse, and civilly "remarries" is guilty of adultery.
2. Adultery is a mortal sin.
3. To receive Communion in a state of mortal sin is itself a mortal sin
4. To die in a state of mortal sin condemns one to eternal damnation

And, if the buck stops with the pope, then isn't Pope Francis knowingly and directly responsible for the damnation of numerous souls via commission when he himself told the bishops of Buenos Aires that there were cases in which the divorced and civilly "remarried" could commune and via omission by not correcting the local churches in Malta and Germany where the bishops' conferences have begun allowing people who are divorced and civilly "remarried" to go to Communion?
Read my post above, he cannot change Church doctrine no matter what he tells the bishops of Bueno Aires, the bishops of Malta or anyone else. the minute he does, he ceases to be pope. He cannot not change Church teachings on sacrments  of Matrimony, Confession or the Eucharist. But, it sure looks like he's trying.

We are truly in an Henry the VIII momment here in the Catholic Church.


Hopefully we have some St John the Baptist's and St. John Fischer's in the clergy start standing up for marriage.


Otherwise, they died for nothing.

But he was allowed to change the Fillioque too?
St Makarios, pray for us.

Offline PJ26

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 179
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Russian - is there another one? ;)
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #244 on: April 26, 2017, 08:03:09 AM »
Charles,

You didn't answer my question.  Assuming those 4 points of Catholic teaching are still valid, is Pope Francis knowingly and directly responsible for the damnation of numerous souls via commission when he himself told the bishops of Buenos Aires that there were cases in which the divorced and civilly "remarried" could commune and via omission by not correcting the local churches in Malta and Germany where the bishops' conferences have begun allowing people who are divorced and civilly "remarried" to go to Communion?

Those involved, bishops and laity, are Catholics who, like you, are bound to submit to the pope "by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world" and whose judgements you must "sincerely adhere to."

If you want to say he's not pope fine. Become a sedevacantist or resignationist and own that.  But if not, don't keep refreshing Lifesite news or EWTN or whatever website you like every five minutes looking for the latest quote from Cardinal Muller or Cardinal Burke or whomever so you can keep trying to convince yourself and others that nothing has changed, everything's fine, and the pope isn't in actuality doing precisely what you say he cannot do because you are either unwilling or unable to accept what that would mean.

« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 08:04:24 AM by PJ26 »

Offline Lepanto

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 334
  • Faith: Roman Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Munich and Freising
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #245 on: April 26, 2017, 08:27:41 AM »
Read my post above, he cannot change Church doctrine no matter what he tells the bishops of Bueno Aires, the bishops of Malta or anyone else. the minute he does, he ceases to be pope.
Hmm... going sedi? The question is who is going to judge when he would declare formal heresy and cease to be pope? Also, what does it take? Imho nothing short of a: "In irreconcilable contradiction to unchangeable church doctrine, I tell you that..." will do. And this is something which will never happen.
una cum famulo tuo Papa nostro et Antistite nostro et omnibus orthodoxis atque catholicæ et apostolicæ fidei cultoribus

Offline Charles Martel

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,805
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #246 on: April 28, 2017, 04:02:07 PM »
Quote
suming those 4 points of Catholic teaching are still valid, is Pope Francis knowingly and directly responsible for the damnation of numerous souls via commission when he himself told the bishops of Buenos Aires that there were cases in which the divorced and civilly "remarried" could commune and via omission by not correcting the local churches in Malta and Germany where the bishops' conferences have begun allowing people who are divorced and civilly "remarried" to go to Communion?
I don't believe anyone's soul is going to be "damned" for following the instructions of the pope or the bishops of BA, however misleading and wrong that may be, however, if they were correctly catechized and know the teachings of the Magesterium and the Church, they would be dangerously close if they knew in their heart what they were doing was indeed in grave error and sinful. How we lose salvation is not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with church teaching as opposed to having the stain of mortal sin on our soul. And  the components of mortal sin is having full knowledge that the act is sinful and of grave matter and giving full consent in the light of that knowledge. Most Catholics really don't know either the conditions for mortal  sin or even have full knowledge of the Church teaching and doctrines on many issues. Mostly, because most were poorly catechized these days.

As for pope Francis, yes he might be culpable of sending the wrong message in the attempt at charity for those who would wish to commune in the Church and yet still not have complete absolution while recieving the Eucharist.

Quote
Those involved, bishops and laity, are Catholics who, like you, are bound to submit to the pope "by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world" and whose judgements you must "sincerely adhere to."
No one is bound or obligated to submit to error or even heresy. What you are describing is false obedience.

Quote
If you want to say he's not pope fine.
I never said that. don't put words in my mouth. Francis IS the pope.

Quote
Become a sedevacantist or resignationist and own that.
Or maybe a shismatic and join the ROC? uh, no thx.

Actually, it's ironic that this whole deal is over the abuse of the Sacrament of Marriage. (Not too mention Communion and Confession) And this is one area the Orthodox have seemingly dropped the ball on as well, and for a very long time.

No, I don't plan on going sede,shismatic and heretic anytime soon. And I certainly pray that my pope doesn't either.

Quote
But if not, don't keep refreshing Lifesite news or EWTN or whatever website you like every five minutes looking for the latest quote from Cardinal Muller or Cardinal Burke or whomever so you can keep trying to convince yourself and others that nothing has changed
I'm sorry if these updates offend you. But I'm trying to keep this information updated on exactly what is going on. Feel free to post any Russin Orthodox input here as well. But it's really not your fight. As for the Cardinals, they are very brave and exceptionally smart men. This is exactly what the Church needs right now. As for change, nothing, absolutely nothing has changed in the doctrines and the deposit of Faith in the Church concerning these issues. But you keep convincing yourself it has.

Quote
and the pope isn't in actuality doing precisely what you say he cannot do because you are either unwilling or unable to accept what that would mean
What the pope needs to do, is asnwer the Cardinal's questions from the Dubia.

Then there's no doubt what that would mean.

« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 04:02:50 PM by Charles Martel »
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Charles Martel

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,805
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #247 on: April 28, 2017, 04:03:24 PM »
Charles,

If the pope cannot change doctrine as you maintain, then the following is still true I assume:

1. The individual who has a sacramental marriage, divorces his or her spouse, and civilly "remarries" is guilty of adultery.
2. Adultery is a mortal sin.
3. To receive Communion in a state of mortal sin is itself a mortal sin
4. To die in a state of mortal sin condemns one to eternal damnation

And, if the buck stops with the pope, then isn't Pope Francis knowingly and directly responsible for the damnation of numerous souls via commission when he himself told the bishops of Buenos Aires that there were cases in which the divorced and civilly "remarried" could commune and via omission by not correcting the local churches in Malta and Germany where the bishops' conferences have begun allowing people who are divorced and civilly "remarried" to go to Communion?
Read my post above, he cannot change Church doctrine no matter what he tells the bishops of Bueno Aires, the bishops of Malta or anyone else. the minute he does, he ceases to be pope. He cannot not change Church teachings on sacrments  of Matrimony, Confession or the Eucharist. But, it sure looks like he's trying.

We are truly in an Henry the VIII momment here in the Catholic Church.


Hopefully we have some St John the Baptist's and St. John Fischer's in the clergy start standing up for marriage.


Otherwise, they died for nothing.

Is "Saint" John Paul II allowed to do so, but not Francis?
What are you even talking about?
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline PJ26

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 179
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Russian - is there another one? ;)
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #248 on: April 28, 2017, 06:25:25 PM »
Charles,

I don't know if you've been following some of the other threads here, but you strike me as being sort of the Catholic version of BCSenior.  You say, it's not my fight, and by extension it's not Orthodoxy's fight and that is, of course, correct. Yet, regardless of that fact, it's you who come on an Orthodox website to defend Catholicism, and, by the way, thank you for your permission to post my reflections as an Orthodox Christian on an Orthodox website.  As for being offended, I'm not offended by your posts any more than I am offended by those of BCSenior.  I guess I'm just somewhat mystified as to why an individual would do it.  An open-minded give and take is one thing, but this sort of out of nowhere, defensive, quasi-proselytizing strikes me as a bit odd.  A thread is left untouched for two months, and then out of the blue, here's the latest from Cardinal Muller, doing his best Leslie Nielsen impression, standing in front of the exploding fireworks factory telling us "nothing to see here," but whatever.

Regarding your response, you'll forgive me if I remain unconvinced.  You say Francis "might be culpable of sending the wrong message."  I had to laugh when I read that.  To review, Catholic teaching says the following:

1. The individual who has a sacramental marriage, divorces his or her spouse, and civilly "remarries" is guilty of adultery.
2. Adultery is a mortal sin.
3. To receive Communion in a state of mortal sin is itself a mortal sin
4. To die in a state of mortal sin condemns one to eternal damnation

Pope Francis stands in clear opposition to this teaching through both his action and inaction.  Again, he told the bishops of Buenos Aires that there were times when those who were civilly divorced and "remarried" could go to communion.  How is that not a direct contradiction of the above teaching?  And even if the bishops of Buenos Aires disagreed with him, they have to obey him and if they don't he can remove them.  The same can be said about the bishops of Malta and Germany.  If he really believed in and wanted to enforce Catholic teaching he would tell them, "You know what, what you guys are doing is putting souls in jeopardy of going to hell, so you had better stop it, or else!" But is he doing that?  No!  In fact, the bishops of Malta and Germany specifically cite him and Amoris Laetitia for making the change.  And does he correct them?  "Hey, that's not what I meant"? No!  Cardinal Coccopalmerio, President of the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts, authors a pamphlet, printed by the Vatican's own printing office, saying that people who are divorced and civilly "remarried" should be allowed to receive communion.  Any word from the pope?  No!  Has he responded to the Dubia?  No!  And why do you think that is Charles?  Yes, I know you aren't in the mind of the pope, but I'd be interested in your best guess.  Give it a shot.  Certainly, he has to be aware of the "lio" he is causing here by not responding.  Why not just come out and reaffirm Catholic teaching on the matter?  Easy enough.  But we all know (yes, we all know!) either a. he doesn't believe it or b. he's intentionally leading a portion of his flock to commit what are objectively mortally sinful acts regardless of their own subjective culpability come judgement day.  It's one or the other, there is no alternative.

You write regarding the potential eternal damnation of the individuals involved: "if they were correctly catechized and know the teachings of the Magesterium and the Church, they would be dangerously close if they knew in their heart what they were doing was indeed in grave error and sinful."  So, at the very least, you are admitting that Pope Francis' action and inaction are putting these people dangerously close to damnation, because, while you correctly lament the present state of Catholic catechesis, don't tell me that the majority of those involved here don't know that the Catholic church previously said that they couldn't commune and the reasons why, but now, under Pope Francis, they can.  C'mon!  We are talking about gravely sinful acts that could lead to an eternity in hell and you shrug your shoulders and say well the pope's messaging is just off.  That would be funny if the dangers weren't so real and potentially tragic.

I also find your previous Henry VIII metaphor interesting.  You look for modern day John Fishers and Thomas Mores to fight against the villainous, heretic king, and I assume you would put the "exceptionally brave and smart" Dubia Cardinals in the category of the two famous defenders of Catholicism.  The only problem is, that in doing that, who are you necessarily casting in the role of Henry VIII?  Seems like it would have to be Pope Francis, right?  Maybe Henry VIII's messaging, like the pope's, was off too.  After all, he showed great charity, as well, to John and Thomas, by beheading them rather than the usual draw and quartering.

Look, traditional Catholics, such as yourself, are probably the smartest Catholics out there and you know, deep down, your arguments regarding the pope are wanting.  You know exactly what's happening here and you're struggling to make sense of it.  I understand that and I sincerely sympathize having once been where you are.  You put up a brave front, but like with Lepanto, I just can't help but ask myself why someone would feel the need to come on an Orthodox website and so vociferously defend Catholicism if that individual did not have some nagging doubt somewhere that maybe, just maybe, Orthodoxy wasn't correct after all.  But only you know that and even if it were true, I doubt you would admit it.

As for your swipe at Orthodoxy:

"it's ironic that this whole deal is over the abuse of the Sacrament of Marriage. (Not too mention Communion and Confession) And this is one area the Orthodox have seemingly dropped the ball on as well, and for a very long time."

Why don't you make a list of everything in which Orthodoxy differs from Catholicism - the authority of the Bishop of Rome, the Filioque, leavened vs. unleavened bread in the Eucharist, the age of first communion, the time frame between baptism and confirmation/chrismation, married vs. celibate clergy, etc. Make the list and show me who maintains the more ancient tradition.  That's your homework assignment.  Regarding the first one, might I recommend Abbe Guettee's "The Papacy."




Offline Charles Martel

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,805
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #249 on: April 30, 2017, 07:36:04 AM »
Charles,

If the pope cannot change doctrine as you maintain, then the following is still true I assume:

1. The individual who has a sacramental marriage, divorces his or her spouse, and civilly "remarries" is guilty of adultery.
2. Adultery is a mortal sin.
3. To receive Communion in a state of mortal sin is itself a mortal sin
4. To die in a state of mortal sin condemns one to eternal damnation

And, if the buck stops with the pope, then isn't Pope Francis knowingly and directly responsible for the damnation of numerous souls via commission when he himself told the bishops of Buenos Aires that there were cases in which the divorced and civilly "remarried" could commune and via omission by not correcting the local churches in Malta and Germany where the bishops' conferences have begun allowing people who are divorced and civilly "remarried" to go to Communion?
Read my post above, he cannot change Church doctrine no matter what he tells the bishops of Bueno Aires, the bishops of Malta or anyone else. the minute he does, he ceases to be pope. He cannot not change Church teachings on sacrments  of Matrimony, Confession or the Eucharist. But, it sure looks like he's trying.

We are truly in an Henry the VIII momment here in the Catholic Church.


Hopefully we have some St John the Baptist's and St. John Fischer's in the clergy start standing up for marriage.


Otherwise, they died for nothing.

But he was allowed to change the Fillioque too?
Francis hasn't attempted an assault on the  Filioque that I'm aware of.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Rohzek

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,053
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #250 on: April 30, 2017, 10:58:04 AM »
So here's an honest question: Who here is speaking more authoritatively as Pope, guardian of faith, doctrine, and morals? Pope Francis or Pope Eugenius II?

Quote
De his, qui adhibitam sibi uxorem reliquerunt et aliam sociaverunt. Nulli liceat, excepta causa fornicationis, adhibitam uxorem relinquere et deinde aliam copulare; alioquin transgressorem priori convenit sociari coniugio. Sin autem vir et uxor divertere pro sola religiosa inter se consenserint vita, nullatenus sine conscientia episocopi fiat, ut ab eo singulariter proviso constituantur loco. Nam uxore nolente aut altero eorum etiam pro tali re matrimonium non solvatur.

Concerning those men, who have divorced [their] married wives and marry another. Let no one, except for the cause of fornication, divorce their married wife and then marry another. Otherwise, he combines the transgression of the first with having been married [to another]. If however a man and wife consent to divorce between themselves for the sake of a monastic life, in no way shall it be so without the joint knowledge of the bishop, so that they may be stationed by him in a single prepared location. For [if] due to an unwilling wife or her husband, let it not be dissolved for the sake of the marriage.

Canon 36 of the Synod of Rome in 826: http://www.dmgh.de/de/fs1/object/display/bsb00000638_00127.html?sortIndex=020%3A040%3A0002%3A010%3A02%3A00&zoom=0.75

Here's what we got for Pope Francis:

1.) Holds two synods.
2.) Presumably in each synod things come of for a debate.
3.) About 6 months after the second synod, just up and publishes the Amoris laetitia, which exhorts a radical change from prior policy.

Here's what we got for Pope Eugenius II:

1.) Holds a synod in Rome.
2.) Debates many matters.
3.) Publishes the canons in typical conciliar style, and in no unconfused terms allows divorce and remarriage.

My money is on Eugenius, but only because he did it all more typically. I have my sympathies with Francis, but if he is gonna have two synods on something and not come up with any actual canons, then he is only small time.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline benjohn146

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 476
    • Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church, Belleville, Ontario, Canada
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Metropolis of Toronto
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #251 on: April 30, 2017, 12:09:56 PM »
Charles,

If the pope cannot change doctrine as you maintain, then the following is still true I assume:

1. The individual who has a sacramental marriage, divorces his or her spouse, and civilly "remarries" is guilty of adultery.
2. Adultery is a mortal sin.
3. To receive Communion in a state of mortal sin is itself a mortal sin
4. To die in a state of mortal sin condemns one to eternal damnation

And, if the buck stops with the pope, then isn't Pope Francis knowingly and directly responsible for the damnation of numerous souls via commission when he himself told the bishops of Buenos Aires that there were cases in which the divorced and civilly "remarried" could commune and via omission by not correcting the local churches in Malta and Germany where the bishops' conferences have begun allowing people who are divorced and civilly "remarried" to go to Communion?
Read my post above, he cannot change Church doctrine no matter what he tells the bishops of Bueno Aires, the bishops of Malta or anyone else. the minute he does, he ceases to be pope. He cannot not change Church teachings on sacrments  of Matrimony, Confession or the Eucharist. But, it sure looks like he's trying.

We are truly in an Henry the VIII momment here in the Catholic Church.


Hopefully we have some St John the Baptist's and St. John Fischer's in the clergy start standing up for marriage.


Otherwise, they died for nothing.

But he was allowed to change the Fillioque too?
Francis hasn't attempted an assault on the  Filioque that I'm aware of.

We are talking about papal powers my friend, dont go around the issue.
St Makarios, pray for us.

Offline PJ26

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 179
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Russian - is there another one? ;)
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #252 on: April 30, 2017, 02:35:07 PM »
Pope Eugenius II allowed for divorce and remarriage?  I had no idea.  I always thought that it was Constantinople who first permitted it.  That issue was one of the biggest hurdles I had to overcome in my conversion.  Interesting...

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,321
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic Church
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #253 on: April 30, 2017, 04:15:56 PM »
Charles,

If the pope cannot change doctrine as you maintain, then the following is still true I assume:

1. The individual who has a sacramental marriage, divorces his or her spouse, and civilly "remarries" is guilty of adultery.
2. Adultery is a mortal sin.
3. To receive Communion in a state of mortal sin is itself a mortal sin
4. To die in a state of mortal sin condemns one to eternal damnation

And, if the buck stops with the pope, then isn't Pope Francis knowingly and directly responsible for the damnation of numerous souls via commission when he himself told the bishops of Buenos Aires that there were cases in which the divorced and civilly "remarried" could commune and via omission by not correcting the local churches in Malta and Germany where the bishops' conferences have begun allowing people who are divorced and civilly "remarried" to go to Communion?
Read my post above, he cannot change Church doctrine no matter what he tells the bishops of Bueno Aires, the bishops of Malta or anyone else. the minute he does, he ceases to be pope. He cannot not change Church teachings on sacrments  of Matrimony, Confession or the Eucharist. But, it sure looks like he's trying.

We are truly in an Henry the VIII momment here in the Catholic Church.


Hopefully we have some St John the Baptist's and St. John Fischer's in the clergy start standing up for marriage.


Otherwise, they died for nothing.

Is "Saint" John Paul II allowed to do so, but not Francis?
What are you even talking about?

John Paul II changed Roman Catholic doctrine also.
This profile is defunct as of 11/8/2017. I created it before Orthodoxy, and have used it after Orthodoxy.

I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

I will likely lurk on this forum under a different name.

Offline Charles Martel

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,805
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #254 on: May 01, 2017, 05:11:51 AM »
Quote
Hmm... going sedi?
Nope, i'm in full communion.....you?

Quote
The question is who is going to judge when he would declare formal heresy and cease to be pope
He judges himself. No one is allowed to judge the pope, other than another pope.

Quote
Also, what does it take? Imho nothing short of a: "In irreconcilable contradiction to unchangeable church doctrine, I tell you that..." will do. And this is something which will never happen.
Let's pray not.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Charles Martel

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,805
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #255 on: May 01, 2017, 05:33:53 AM »
So here's an honest question: Who here is speaking more authoritatively as Pope, guardian of faith, doctrine, and morals? Pope Francis or Pope Eugenius II?

Quote
De his, qui adhibitam sibi uxorem reliquerunt et aliam sociaverunt. Nulli liceat, excepta causa fornicationis, adhibitam uxorem relinquere et deinde aliam copulare; alioquin transgressorem priori convenit sociari coniugio. Sin autem vir et uxor divertere pro sola religiosa inter se consenserint vita, nullatenus sine conscientia episocopi fiat, ut ab eo singulariter proviso constituantur loco. Nam uxore nolente aut altero eorum etiam pro tali re matrimonium non solvatur.

Concerning those men, who have divorced [their] married wives and marry another. Let no one, except for the cause of fornication, divorce their married wife and then marry another. Otherwise, he combines the transgression of the first with having been married [to another]. If however a man and wife consent to divorce between themselves for the sake of a monastic life, in no way shall it be so without the joint knowledge of the bishop, so that they may be stationed by him in a single prepared location. For [if] due to an unwilling wife or her husband, let it not be dissolved for the sake of the marriage.

Canon 36 of the Synod of Rome in 826: http://www.dmgh.de/de/fs1/object/display/bsb00000638_00127.html?sortIndex=020%3A040%3A0002%3A010%3A02%3A00&zoom=0.75

Here's what we got for Pope Francis:

1.) Holds two synods.
2.) Presumably in each synod things come of for a debate.
3.) About 6 months after the second synod, just up and publishes the Amoris laetitia, which exhorts a radical change from prior policy.

Here's what we got for Pope Eugenius II:

1.) Holds a synod in Rome.
2.) Debates many matters.
3.) Publishes the canons in typical conciliar style, and in no unconfused terms allows divorce and remarriage.

My money is on Eugenius, but only because he did it all more typically. I have my sympathies with Francis, but if he is gonna have two synods on something and not come up with any actual canons, then he is only small time.
This is nonsense. try posting something in English the next time you want to back up your false accusations.

No pope has ever condoned/allowed divorce of a valid marriage in the RCC, they cannot abrogate what Christ has commanded (What God has joined, let no MAN put asunder), they simply can't, period, close the book .

You want to play fast and loose in the East with "three strikes and your out" with the marriage Sacrament, that's your problem, stop trying to find examples of loopholes by popes in the Vatican changing doctrine on marriage, you're just wasting your time.No pope can change/terminate  the valid marriage contract.

You are  also insulting the Catholic martyrs who have been tortured and died defending the Faith on these marriage sacramental issues.


Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Charles Martel

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,805
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #256 on: May 01, 2017, 05:40:28 AM »
Charles,

If the pope cannot change doctrine as you maintain, then the following is still true I assume:

1. The individual who has a sacramental marriage, divorces his or her spouse, and civilly "remarries" is guilty of adultery.
2. Adultery is a mortal sin.
3. To receive Communion in a state of mortal sin is itself a mortal sin
4. To die in a state of mortal sin condemns one to eternal damnation

And, if the buck stops with the pope, then isn't Pope Francis knowingly and directly responsible for the damnation of numerous souls via commission when he himself told the bishops of Buenos Aires that there were cases in which the divorced and civilly "remarried" could commune and via omission by not correcting the local churches in Malta and Germany where the bishops' conferences have begun allowing people who are divorced and civilly "remarried" to go to Communion?
Read my post above, he cannot change Church doctrine no matter what he tells the bishops of Bueno Aires, the bishops of Malta or anyone else. the minute he does, he ceases to be pope. He cannot not change Church teachings on sacrments  of Matrimony, Confession or the Eucharist. But, it sure looks like he's trying.

We are truly in an Henry the VIII momment here in the Catholic Church.


Hopefully we have some St John the Baptist's and St. John Fischer's in the clergy start standing up for marriage.


Otherwise, they died for nothing.

But he was allowed to change the Fillioque too?
Francis hasn't attempted an assault on the  Filioque that I'm aware of.

We are talking about papal powers my friend, dont go around the issue.
Yes we are, powers that you don't recognize, so what's your point?

BTW, the addition of the Filioque was only confirming what the early Church Fathers believed anyway.

It was also used as part of the political excuse for the Great Schism. I don't want to open up a whole can of worms here.

Just saying. ;)
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Charles Martel

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,805
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #257 on: May 01, 2017, 05:42:29 AM »
Charles,

If the pope cannot change doctrine as you maintain, then the following is still true I assume:

1. The individual who has a sacramental marriage, divorces his or her spouse, and civilly "remarries" is guilty of adultery.
2. Adultery is a mortal sin.
3. To receive Communion in a state of mortal sin is itself a mortal sin
4. To die in a state of mortal sin condemns one to eternal damnation

And, if the buck stops with the pope, then isn't Pope Francis knowingly and directly responsible for the damnation of numerous souls via commission when he himself told the bishops of Buenos Aires that there were cases in which the divorced and civilly "remarried" could commune and via omission by not correcting the local churches in Malta and Germany where the bishops' conferences have begun allowing people who are divorced and civilly "remarried" to go to Communion?
Read my post above, he cannot change Church doctrine no matter what he tells the bishops of Bueno Aires, the bishops of Malta or anyone else. the minute he does, he ceases to be pope. He cannot not change Church teachings on sacrments  of Matrimony, Confession or the Eucharist. But, it sure looks like he's trying.

We are truly in an Henry the VIII momment here in the Catholic Church.


Hopefully we have some St John the Baptist's and St. John Fischer's in the clergy start standing up for marriage.


Otherwise, they died for nothing.

Is "Saint" John Paul II allowed to do so, but not Francis?
What are you even talking about?

John Paul II changed Roman Catholic doctrine also.
Sure OK.

Name one example.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Charles Martel

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,805
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #258 on: May 01, 2017, 05:44:09 AM »
Charles,

I don't know if you've been following some of the other threads here, but you strike me as being sort of the Catholic version of BCSenior.  You say, it's not my fight, and by extension it's not Orthodoxy's fight and that is, of course, correct. Yet, regardless of that fact, it's you who come on an Orthodox website to defend Catholicism, and, by the way, thank you for your permission to post my reflections as an Orthodox Christian on an Orthodox website.  As for being offended, I'm not offended by your posts any more than I am offended by those of BCSenior.  I guess I'm just somewhat mystified as to why an individual would do it.  An open-minded give and take is one thing, but this sort of out of nowhere, defensive, quasi-proselytizing strikes me as a bit odd.  A thread is left untouched for two months, and then out of the blue, here's the latest from Cardinal Muller, doing his best Leslie Nielsen impression, standing in front of the exploding fireworks factory telling us "nothing to see here," but whatever.

Regarding your response, you'll forgive me if I remain unconvinced.  You say Francis "might be culpable of sending the wrong message."  I had to laugh when I read that.  To review, Catholic teaching says the following:

1. The individual who has a sacramental marriage, divorces his or her spouse, and civilly "remarries" is guilty of adultery.
2. Adultery is a mortal sin.
3. To receive Communion in a state of mortal sin is itself a mortal sin
4. To die in a state of mortal sin condemns one to eternal damnation

Pope Francis stands in clear opposition to this teaching through both his action and inaction.  Again, he told the bishops of Buenos Aires that there were times when those who were civilly divorced and "remarried" could go to communion.  How is that not a direct contradiction of the above teaching?  And even if the bishops of Buenos Aires disagreed with him, they have to obey him and if they don't he can remove them.  The same can be said about the bishops of Malta and Germany.  If he really believed in and wanted to enforce Catholic teaching he would tell them, "You know what, what you guys are doing is putting souls in jeopardy of going to hell, so you had better stop it, or else!" But is he doing that?  No!  In fact, the bishops of Malta and Germany specifically cite him and Amoris Laetitia for making the change.  And does he correct them?  "Hey, that's not what I meant"? No!  Cardinal Coccopalmerio, President of the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts, authors a pamphlet, printed by the Vatican's own printing office, saying that people who are divorced and civilly "remarried" should be allowed to receive communion.  Any word from the pope?  No!  Has he responded to the Dubia?  No!  And why do you think that is Charles?  Yes, I know you aren't in the mind of the pope, but I'd be interested in your best guess.  Give it a shot.  Certainly, he has to be aware of the "lio" he is causing here by not responding.  Why not just come out and reaffirm Catholic teaching on the matter?  Easy enough.  But we all know (yes, we all know!) either a. he doesn't believe it or b. he's intentionally leading a portion of his flock to commit what are objectively mortally sinful acts regardless of their own subjective culpability come judgement day.  It's one or the other, there is no alternative.

You write regarding the potential eternal damnation of the individuals involved: "if they were correctly catechized and know the teachings of the Magesterium and the Church, they would be dangerously close if they knew in their heart what they were doing was indeed in grave error and sinful."  So, at the very least, you are admitting that Pope Francis' action and inaction are putting these people dangerously close to damnation, because, while you correctly lament the present state of Catholic catechesis, don't tell me that the majority of those involved here don't know that the Catholic church previously said that they couldn't commune and the reasons why, but now, under Pope Francis, they can.  C'mon!  We are talking about gravely sinful acts that could lead to an eternity in hell and you shrug your shoulders and say well the pope's messaging is just off.  That would be funny if the dangers weren't so real and potentially tragic.

I also find your previous Henry VIII metaphor interesting.  You look for modern day John Fishers and Thomas Mores to fight against the villainous, heretic king, and I assume you would put the "exceptionally brave and smart" Dubia Cardinals in the category of the two famous defenders of Catholicism.  The only problem is, that in doing that, who are you necessarily casting in the role of Henry VIII?  Seems like it would have to be Pope Francis, right?  Maybe Henry VIII's messaging, like the pope's, was off too.  After all, he showed great charity, as well, to John and Thomas, by beheading them rather than the usual draw and quartering.

Look, traditional Catholics, such as yourself, are probably the smartest Catholics out there and you know, deep down, your arguments regarding the pope are wanting.  You know exactly what's happening here and you're struggling to make sense of it.  I understand that and I sincerely sympathize having once been where you are.  You put up a brave front, but like with Lepanto, I just can't help but ask myself why someone would feel the need to come on an Orthodox website and so vociferously defend Catholicism if that individual did not have some nagging doubt somewhere that maybe, just maybe, Orthodoxy wasn't correct after all.  But only you know that and even if it were true, I doubt you would admit it.

As for your swipe at Orthodoxy:

"it's ironic that this whole deal is over the abuse of the Sacrament of Marriage. (Not too mention Communion and Confession) And this is one area the Orthodox have seemingly dropped the ball on as well, and for a very long time."

Why don't you make a list of everything in which Orthodoxy differs from Catholicism - the authority of the Bishop of Rome, the Filioque, leavened vs. unleavened bread in the Eucharist, the age of first communion, the time frame between baptism and confirmation/chrismation, married vs. celibate clergy, etc. Make the list and show me who maintains the more ancient tradition.  That's your homework assignment.  Regarding the first one, might I recommend Abbe Guettee's "The Papacy."
PJ, I will address this post as time permits. I'm not ignoring you my friend. ;)
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Online Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 36,339
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #259 on: May 01, 2017, 06:28:18 AM »
Pastoral care: it's not just for icky, bleeding-heart liberals ;)

For God at the first, indeed, warning them by means of natural precepts, which from the beginning He had implanted in mankind, that is, by means of the Decalogue (which, if any one does not observe, he has no salvation), did then demand nothing more of them. As Moses says in Deuteronomy, "These are all the words which the Lord spoke to the whole assembly of the sons of Israel on the mount, and He added no more; and He wrote them on two tables of stone, and gave them to me." (Deut 5:22) For this reason [He did so], that they who are willing to follow Him might keep these commandments. But when they turned themselves to make a calf, and had gone back in their minds to Egypt, desiring to be slaves instead of free-men, they were placed for the future in a state of servitude suited to their wish—[a slavery] which did not indeed cut them off from God, but subjected them to the yoke of bondage; as Ezekiel the prophet, when stating the reasons for the giving of such a law, declares: "And their eyes were after the desire of their heart; and I gave them statutes that were not good, and judgments in which they shall not live." (Eze. 20:24)...

And not only so, but the Lord also showed that certain precepts were enacted for them by Moses, on account of their hardness [of heart], and because of their unwillingness to be obedient, when, on their saying to Him, "Why then did Moses command to give a writing of divorcement, and to send away a wife?" He said to them, "Because of the hardness of your hearts he permitted these things to you; but from the beginning it was not so," (Matt. 19:7-8) thus exculpating Moses as a faithful servant, but acknowledging one God, who from the beginning made male and female, and reproving them as hard-hearted and disobedient. And therefore it was that they received from Moses this law of divorcement, adapted to their hard nature.

But why say I these things concerning the Old Testament? For in the New also are the apostles found doing this very thing, on the ground which has been mentioned, Paul plainly declaring, "But these things I say, not the Lord." (1 Cor. 7:12) And again: "But this I speak by permission, not by commandment." (1 Cor. 7:6) And again: "Now, as concerning virgins, I have no commandment from the Lord; yet I give my judgment, as one that has obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful." (1 Cor. 7:25) But further, in another place he says: "That Satan tempt you not for your incontinence." (1 Cor. 7:5) If, therefore, even in the New Testament, the apostles are found granting certain precepts in consideration of human infirmity, because of the incontinence of some, lest such persons, having grown obdurate, and despairing altogether of their salvation, should become apostates from God—it ought not to be wondered at, if also in the Old Testament the same God permitted similar indulgences for the benefit of His people, drawing them on by means of the ordinances already mentioned, so that they might obtain the gift of salvation through them, while they obeyed the Decalogue, and being restrained by Him, should not revert to idolatry, nor apostatize from God, but learn to love Him with the whole heart.

-- St. Irenaeus of Lyon (d. 202), Against Heresies, 4.15.1-2

The fact is God did allow a man (named Moses) to change things and allow divorce--to split up what had become one flesh--as a condescension to human weakness; the Church does not have less power or freedom than the Law.

Offline PJ26

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 179
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Russian - is there another one? ;)
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #260 on: May 01, 2017, 08:16:20 AM »
Synod of Rome, AD 826, which Pope Eugenius II presided over:

De his, qui adhibitam sibi uxorem reliquerunt et aliam sociaverunt. Nulli liceat, excepta causa fornicationis, adhibitam uxorem relinquere et deinde aliam copulare; alioquin transgressorem priori convenit sociari coniugio. Sin autem vir et uxor divertere pro sola religiosa inter se consenserint vita, nullatenus sine conscientia episocopi fiat, ut ab eo singulariter proviso constituantur loco. Nam uxore nolente aut altero eorum etiam pro tali re matrimonium non solvatur.

Forma minor: Nullus excepta causa fornicationis uxorem suam dimittat. Si vero vir et uxor pro religion dividi voluerint, cum consensus episcopi hic faciant. Nam si unus voluerit et alius noluerit, etiam pro tali re matrimonium non solvatur.

Concerning those men, who have divorced [their] married wives and marry another. Let no one, except for the cause of fornication, divorce their married wife and then marry another. Otherwise, he combines the transgression of the first with having been married [to another]. If however a man and wife consent to divorce between themselves for the sake of a monastic life, in no way shall it be so without the joint knowledge of the bishop, so that they may be stationed by him in a single prepared location. For [if] due to an unwilling wife or her husband, let it not be dissolved for the sake of the marriage.

Smaller form: Let no one divorce his wife except for the cause of fornication. Truly if a man and a wife wish to separate for [pursuing] a religious life, let them do so with the consent of the bishop here. For if one wishes and another does not wish, let the marriage not be dissolved.

Concilia Romanum, canon 36, MGH, Concilia aevi Karolini, 2.1: 582

https://shamelessorthodoxy.wordpress.com/2016/09/17/divorce-remarriage-in-the-latin-west-a-forgotten-history/

Yes, it is from a site called "Shameless Orthodoxy," but that doesn't invalidate the truth of the matter.

Offline ErmyCath

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 249
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #261 on: May 01, 2017, 09:21:55 AM »
No pope has ever condoned/allowed divorce of a valid marriage in the RCC, they cannot abrogate what Christ has commanded (What God has joined, let no MAN put asunder), they simply can't, period, close the book .

Are you taking issue with the authenticity of the proffered quote, or are you saying that, if a past pope did say that, he didn't have the authority to do so, making his statement void?
"You must have an opinion on everything and loudly confront everyone with it." - Cyrillic

Offline benjohn146

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 476
    • Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church, Belleville, Ontario, Canada
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Metropolis of Toronto
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #262 on: May 01, 2017, 09:30:11 AM »
Charles,

If the pope cannot change doctrine as you maintain, then the following is still true I assume:

1. The individual who has a sacramental marriage, divorces his or her spouse, and civilly "remarries" is guilty of adultery.
2. Adultery is a mortal sin.
3. To receive Communion in a state of mortal sin is itself a mortal sin
4. To die in a state of mortal sin condemns one to eternal damnation

And, if the buck stops with the pope, then isn't Pope Francis knowingly and directly responsible for the damnation of numerous souls via commission when he himself told the bishops of Buenos Aires that there were cases in which the divorced and civilly "remarried" could commune and via omission by not correcting the local churches in Malta and Germany where the bishops' conferences have begun allowing people who are divorced and civilly "remarried" to go to Communion?
Read my post above, he cannot change Church doctrine no matter what he tells the bishops of Bueno Aires, the bishops of Malta or anyone else. the minute he does, he ceases to be pope. He cannot not change Church teachings on sacrments  of Matrimony, Confession or the Eucharist. But, it sure looks like he's trying.

We are truly in an Henry the VIII momment here in the Catholic Church.


Hopefully we have some St John the Baptist's and St. John Fischer's in the clergy start standing up for marriage.


Otherwise, they died for nothing.

But he was allowed to change the Fillioque too?
Francis hasn't attempted an assault on the  Filioque that I'm aware of.

We are talking about papal powers my friend, dont go around the issue.
Yes we are, powers that you don't recognize, so what's your point?

BTW, the addition of the Filioque was only confirming what the early Church Fathers believed anyway.

It was also used as part of the political excuse for the Great Schism. I don't want to open up a whole can of worms here.

Just saying. ;)

According to that same logic, if a pope does have that kind of power to change a doctrine (i.e. the filioque) he can change the doctrine of marriage.

You will probably answer saying that it is not the same thing but here is the thing; where do we draw the line with what a pope can authoritatively proclaim that it is abiding to his flock or not?

Is he not infallible after not? And if he is, councils are useless and void.

Not going any further, waiting for your reaction.
St Makarios, pray for us.

Offline Rohzek

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,053
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #263 on: May 01, 2017, 11:20:22 AM »
So here's an honest question: Who here is speaking more authoritatively as Pope, guardian of faith, doctrine, and morals? Pope Francis or Pope Eugenius II?

Quote
De his, qui adhibitam sibi uxorem reliquerunt et aliam sociaverunt. Nulli liceat, excepta causa fornicationis, adhibitam uxorem relinquere et deinde aliam copulare; alioquin transgressorem priori convenit sociari coniugio. Sin autem vir et uxor divertere pro sola religiosa inter se consenserint vita, nullatenus sine conscientia episocopi fiat, ut ab eo singulariter proviso constituantur loco. Nam uxore nolente aut altero eorum etiam pro tali re matrimonium non solvatur.

Concerning those men, who have divorced [their] married wives and marry another. Let no one, except for the cause of fornication, divorce their married wife and then marry another. Otherwise, he combines the transgression of the first with having been married [to another]. If however a man and wife consent to divorce between themselves for the sake of a monastic life, in no way shall it be so without the joint knowledge of the bishop, so that they may be stationed by him in a single prepared location. For [if] due to an unwilling wife or her husband, let it not be dissolved for the sake of the marriage.

Canon 36 of the Synod of Rome in 826: http://www.dmgh.de/de/fs1/object/display/bsb00000638_00127.html?sortIndex=020%3A040%3A0002%3A010%3A02%3A00&zoom=0.75

Here's what we got for Pope Francis:

1.) Holds two synods.
2.) Presumably in each synod things come of for a debate.
3.) About 6 months after the second synod, just up and publishes the Amoris laetitia, which exhorts a radical change from prior policy.

Here's what we got for Pope Eugenius II:

1.) Holds a synod in Rome.
2.) Debates many matters.
3.) Publishes the canons in typical conciliar style, and in no unconfused terms allows divorce and remarriage.

My money is on Eugenius, but only because he did it all more typically. I have my sympathies with Francis, but if he is gonna have two synods on something and not come up with any actual canons, then he is only small time.
This is nonsense. try posting something in English the next time you want to back up your false accusations.

No pope has ever condoned/allowed divorce of a valid marriage in the RCC, they cannot abrogate what Christ has commanded (What God has joined, let no MAN put asunder), they simply can't, period, close the book .

You want to play fast and loose in the East with "three strikes and your out" with the marriage Sacrament, that's your problem, stop trying to find examples of loopholes by popes in the Vatican changing doctrine on marriage, you're just wasting your time.No pope can change/terminate  the valid marriage contract.

You are  also insulting the Catholic martyrs who have been tortured and died defending the Faith on these marriage sacramental issues.



The crazy thing is that I did post it in English. That is, I translated it. The canonical ruling even made it into secular imperial law under Emperor Lothar. I should probably also correct the following line:

Quote
alioquin transgressorem priori convenit sociari coniugio.

This should be: Otherwise, it is suitable for the transgressor to be married to the former spouse.

My bad for the translation. I still find some things every now and then that I tend to get wrong. All that being said, the overall meaning remains the same.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 11:25:43 AM by Rohzek »
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,597
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #264 on: May 01, 2017, 12:47:53 PM »
Come on, you can't expect Charles accept any of this nonsense if you can't produce the documents in their original English.
Quote
Don John pounding from the slaughter-painted poop
- GK Chesteron, "Lepanto"

Offline Lepanto

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 334
  • Faith: Roman Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Munich and Freising
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #265 on: May 01, 2017, 01:17:56 PM »
Quote
Hmm... going sedi?
Nope, i'm in full communion.....you?

Quote
The question is who is going to judge when he would declare formal heresy and cease to be pope
He judges himself. No one is allowed to judge the pope, other than another pope.

Quote
Also, what does it take? Imho nothing short of a: "In irreconcilable contradiction to unchangeable church doctrine, I tell you that..." will do. And this is something which will never happen.
Let's pray not.
1) I was in full communion with the bishop of Rome last time I checked ( see Jurisdiction)
2) He judges himself? Nah. After this life, there will be just one judge.
You write: "No one is allowed to judge the pope." Yep. This is exactly it. Checks. Which authority could prove him wrong if he were to speak heresy in plain terms rather than footnotes?
From the outside, this appears to be a severe flaw right there at the root of Catholicism.
una cum famulo tuo Papa nostro et Antistite nostro et omnibus orthodoxis atque catholicæ et apostolicæ fidei cultoribus

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 450
  • Māran etraḥam 'lay!
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #266 on: May 01, 2017, 04:15:14 PM »
Come on, you can't expect Charles accept any of this nonsense if you can't produce the documents in their original English.

*snort*
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline Charles Martel

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,805
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #267 on: May 05, 2017, 06:41:50 PM »
Synod of Rome, AD 826, which Pope Eugenius II presided over:

De his, qui adhibitam sibi uxorem reliquerunt et aliam sociaverunt. Nulli liceat, excepta causa fornicationis, adhibitam uxorem relinquere et deinde aliam copulare; alioquin transgressorem priori convenit sociari coniugio. Sin autem vir et uxor divertere pro sola religiosa inter se consenserint vita, nullatenus sine conscientia episocopi fiat, ut ab eo singulariter proviso constituantur loco. Nam uxore nolente aut altero eorum etiam pro tali re matrimonium non solvatur.

Forma minor: Nullus excepta causa fornicationis uxorem suam dimittat. Si vero vir et uxor pro religion dividi voluerint, cum consensus episcopi hic faciant. Nam si unus voluerit et alius noluerit, etiam pro tali re matrimonium non solvatur.

Concerning those men, who have divorced [their] married wives and marry another. Let no one, except for the cause of fornication, divorce their married wife and then marry another. Otherwise, he combines the transgression of the first with having been married [to another]. If however a man and wife consent to divorce between themselves for the sake of a monastic life, in no way shall it be so without the joint knowledge of the bishop, so that they may be stationed by him in a single prepared location. For [if] due to an unwilling wife or her husband, let it not be dissolved for the sake of the marriage.

Smaller form: Let no one divorce his wife except for the cause of fornication. Truly if a man and a wife wish to separate for [pursuing] a religious life, let them do so with the consent of the bishop here. For if one wishes and another does not wish, let the marriage not be dissolved.

Concilia Romanum, canon 36, MGH, Concilia aevi Karolini, 2.1: 582

https://shamelessorthodoxy.wordpress.com/2016/09/17/divorce-remarriage-in-the-latin-west-a-forgotten-history/

Yes, it is from a site called "Shameless Orthodoxy," but that doesn't invalidate the truth of the matter.
Sorry, but no pope has ever allowed divorce within the Catholic Church. It is against Catholic doctrine.

Regardless of your garbage websites falsely accussing prior popes condoning as such;


Divorce

2382 The Lord Jesus insisted on the original intention of the Creator who willed that marriage be indissoluble.173 He abrogates the accommodations that had slipped into the old Law.174
Between the baptized, "a ratified and consummated marriage cannot be dissolved by any human power or for any reason other than death."175

2383 The separation of spouses while maintaining the marriage bond can be legitimate in certain cases provided for by canon law.176
If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense.

2384 Divorce is a grave offense against the natural law. It claims to break the contract, to which the spouses freely consented, to live with each other till death. Divorce does injury to the covenant of salvation, of which sacramental marriage is the sign. Contracting a new union, even if it is recognized by civil law, adds to the gravity of the rupture: the remarried spouse is then in a situation of public and permanent adultery:

If a husband, separated from his wife, approaches another woman, he is an adulterer because he makes that woman commit adultery, and the woman who lives with him is an adulteress, because she has drawn another's husband to herself.177

2385 Divorce is immoral also because it introduces disorder into the family and into society. This disorder brings grave harm to the deserted spouse, to children traumatized by the separation of their parents and often torn between them, and because of its contagious effect which makes it truly a plague on society.

2386 It can happen that one of the spouses is the innocent victim of a divorce decreed by civil law; this spouse therefore has not contravened the moral law. There is a considerable difference between a spouse who has sincerely tried to be faithful to the sacrament of marriage and is unjustly abandoned, and one who through his own grave fault destroys a canonically valid marriage.178


http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P87.HTM
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Charles Martel

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,805
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #268 on: May 05, 2017, 06:43:06 PM »
No pope has ever condoned/allowed divorce of a valid marriage in the RCC, they cannot abrogate what Christ has commanded (What God has joined, let no MAN put asunder), they simply can't, period, close the book .

Are you taking issue with the authenticity of the proffered quote, or are you saying that, if a past pope did say that, he didn't have the authority to do so, making his statement void?
Yes.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Rohzek

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,053
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #269 on: May 05, 2017, 07:53:16 PM »
No pope has ever condoned/allowed divorce of a valid marriage in the RCC, they cannot abrogate what Christ has commanded (What God has joined, let no MAN put asunder), they simply can't, period, close the book .

Are you taking issue with the authenticity of the proffered quote, or are you saying that, if a past pope did say that, he didn't have the authority to do so, making his statement void?
Yes.

The Latin text, which I've translated into English, is available on a well-respected and academically rigorous website, known as the Monumenta Germaniae Historica. You are taking issue with one of the best primary source editors and publishers in the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monumenta_Germaniae_Historica

By the way, Church canons always trump church catechisms. Read it and weep son.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746