Author Topic: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith  (Read 15144 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline WPM

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,486
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #180 on: February 16, 2017, 09:21:46 AM »
I think the Catholic Pope of today is a social phenomenon . . . (Maybe the earlier popes had no such thing) ...
Learn meditation.

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,993
  • Pray for me Sts. Mina & Kyrillos for my interviews
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #181 on: February 16, 2017, 10:21:11 AM »
The four bishops can voice their dubia till the cows come home.
The pope can simply ignore it, if he chooses. He is the vicar of Christ and can do as he pleases.
They can play rebellion, but will pay the bill.
That's the way it is.

I don't think other Catholics in this thread agree with you
I do not know. Let me try to be more explicit:
Leaning towards tradition, you would probably call me a trad catholic.
In my opinion, as stated previously, AL is unnecessary and irrelevant - you could also say dangerous.
The best thing ordinary Catholics and clergy can do imho is fully ignore it. Period.
The four bishops are right and they are heroes - little hyperbole there.
BUT: It will achieve nothing. It is time that certain trad circles wake up from day-dreaming and realize Francis will not withdraw AL. Seriously: Do they expect him to say: "I overlooked something, sorry, my bad."? Face reality. He is in charge and can do as he pleases. I do not say he should.
Interesting tangent: The very same conservative circles vehemently demanding acceptance of papal primacy in the past (e.g. realizing Summorum Pontificum) are complaining loudest now that a pope really is emphasizing his authority. This is bordering opportunism.

And yet you advocate, "let him just do whatever he wants because he is the vicar of Christ and he can do as he pleases"?  Don't you recognize the problem?
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Lepanto

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 310
  • Faith: Roman Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Munich and Freising
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #182 on: February 16, 2017, 11:13:54 AM »
Again: There is no contradiction. Did you actually read AL. It is beautiful and in agreement with what the church always taught almost everywhere. But everybody just talks about this one passage resp. footnote. Anyway.
PJ26 correctly mentioned Lumen Gentium. I am the first to agree that the supreme magisterium must be acknowledged with reverence. Orthodox reminding me of that is in a way pure irony. But once more: AL is a pastoral exhortation. It is not de fide or anything. If the pope were to issue a motu proprio declaring that Christ did not rise on the third day, do you think Lumen Gentium would kick in? We are no lemmings!
una cum famulo tuo Papa nostro et Antistite nostro et omnibus orthodoxis atque catholicæ et apostolicæ fidei cultoribus

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,993
  • Pray for me Sts. Mina & Kyrillos for my interviews
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #183 on: February 16, 2017, 11:18:39 AM »
I find it interesting you went from:

AL is a pastoral document. It has no effect on church teaching whatsoever. It is both unnecessary and irrelevant. Just simply ignore it l. Why would you want to leave the church for a piece of paper?
Don't do it unless you have a better reason.
It should have zero effect on your spiritual life. It is sad if AL leads people astray, but then again there is in the end not much you can do about it. Compared to what the church saw through throughout the centuries, this is just a mini crisis.

to:


Again: There is no contradiction. Did you actually read AL. It is beautiful and in agreement with what the church always taught almost everywhere. But everybody just talks about this one passage resp. footnote. Anyway.
PJ26 correctly mentioned Lumen Gentium. I am the first to agree that the supreme magisterium must be acknowledged with reverence. Orthodox reminding me of that is in a way pure irony. But once more: AL is a pastoral exhortation. It is not de fide or anything. If the pope were to issue a motu proprio declaring that Christ did not rise on the third day, do you think Lumen Gentium would kick in? We are no lemmings!

I feel like this is the type of repeated discussion with Catholics on doctrine.  First they go crazy against Pope Francis for heresy, then they say, "oh wait, it's not heresy, and the Pope is infallible.  Praise the Lord!"

Sigh!
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Lepanto

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 310
  • Faith: Roman Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Munich and Freising
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #184 on: February 16, 2017, 11:26:37 AM »
I did not change my point of view! Please don't claim something like that if you can't prove it.
Also, the pope is not infallible if you ask him the 100th digit of Pi of the top of his head in an interview on an airplane. Ex cathedra. You know all that.
una cum famulo tuo Papa nostro et Antistite nostro et omnibus orthodoxis atque catholicæ et apostolicæ fidei cultoribus

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,993
  • Pray for me Sts. Mina & Kyrillos for my interviews
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #185 on: February 16, 2017, 11:49:50 AM »
Yes, the magical "ex cathedra", which is just a convenient way of saying, "he's right when he's right, and he's wrong when he's wrong."
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Lepanto

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 310
  • Faith: Roman Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Munich and Freising
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #186 on: February 16, 2017, 12:03:30 PM »
Yes, the magical "ex cathedra", which is just a convenient way of saying, "he's right when he's right, and he's wrong when he's wrong."
This thread is about AL and not Vatican I or whatnot.
Also, you for some reason want to use AL in order to prove how Catholicism is wrong. It will not work, already due to the nature of the document.
una cum famulo tuo Papa nostro et Antistite nostro et omnibus orthodoxis atque catholicæ et apostolicæ fidei cultoribus

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,078
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #187 on: February 16, 2017, 12:14:06 PM »
I think the Catholic Pope of today is a social phenomenon . . . (Maybe the earlier popes had no such thing) ...

How prescient! 

Quote
"You have not yet realized that the vision that you have of the Church is outdated? Do not you understand that the Pope today is a world leader?  (via Google Translate)

https://anonimidellacroce.wordpress.com/2017/02/13/spifferi-parte-iii-i-grandi-rinnovamenti-di-bergoglio-di-fra-cristoforo/
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,078
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #188 on: February 16, 2017, 12:15:23 PM »
I find it interesting you went from:

AL is a pastoral document. It has no effect on church teaching whatsoever. It is both unnecessary and irrelevant. Just simply ignore it l. Why would you want to leave the church for a piece of paper?
Don't do it unless you have a better reason.
It should have zero effect on your spiritual life. It is sad if AL leads people astray, but then again there is in the end not much you can do about it. Compared to what the church saw through throughout the centuries, this is just a mini crisis.

to:


Again: There is no contradiction. Did you actually read AL. It is beautiful and in agreement with what the church always taught almost everywhere. But everybody just talks about this one passage resp. footnote. Anyway.
PJ26 correctly mentioned Lumen Gentium. I am the first to agree that the supreme magisterium must be acknowledged with reverence. Orthodox reminding me of that is in a way pure irony. But once more: AL is a pastoral exhortation. It is not de fide or anything. If the pope were to issue a motu proprio declaring that Christ did not rise on the third day, do you think Lumen Gentium would kick in? We are no lemmings!

I feel like this is the type of repeated discussion with Catholics on doctrine.  First they go crazy against Pope Francis for heresy, then they say, "oh wait, it's not heresy, and the Pope is infallible.  Praise the Lord!"

Sigh!

+1
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,993
  • Pray for me Sts. Mina & Kyrillos for my interviews
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #189 on: February 16, 2017, 12:17:18 PM »
Yes, the magical "ex cathedra", which is just a convenient way of saying, "he's right when he's right, and he's wrong when he's wrong."
This thread is about AL and not Vatican I or whatnot.
Also, you for some reason want to use AL in order to prove how Catholicism is wrong. It will not work, already due to the nature of the document.

It was never about AL brother.  There is no consistency among Catholic theologians.  There are usually a couple of qualified Catholic theologians with different views of this issue, all because of the ridiculously unnecessary ecclesio-theologomenoun AT BEST of this "papalist primacy" issue.  AL is a problem because of his so-called "infallibility".
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,078
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #190 on: February 16, 2017, 12:19:45 PM »
Yes, the magical "ex cathedra", which is just a convenient way of saying, "he's right when he's right, and he's wrong when he's wrong."

Which, in turn, essentially boils down to "He's right when I say so, and he's wrong when I say so."  IOW, Protestantism.
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline tcolon90

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 89
  • Faith: The Way
  • Jurisdiction: + Michael - Diocese NY & NJ
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #191 on: February 16, 2017, 01:20:59 PM »
Ex cathedra is funny because the goal post seems to shift. When he's right it seems to apply more generally but when he's wrong it gets narrowed down to a tiny rare incident. It's pointless to argue over this issue on this basis because you can never pin him down. When he's got nothing left to defend himself with the church can just say he was never really a pope in the first place and reject him, which makes me wonder why the infallibility doctrine is needed.
"For where the body is, the eagles will gather."

Offline Lepanto

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 310
  • Faith: Roman Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Munich and Freising
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #192 on: February 16, 2017, 01:21:26 PM »
Yes, the magical "ex cathedra", which is just a convenient way of saying, "he's right when he's right, and he's wrong when he's wrong."

Which, in turn, essentially boils down to "He's right when I say so, and he's wrong when I say so."  IOW, Protestantism.
Nah, another cliché.
 I will not post anymore to this thread as it is leading nowhere. At the end, it is always about papal primacy. Always the same.
una cum famulo tuo Papa nostro et Antistite nostro et omnibus orthodoxis atque catholicæ et apostolicæ fidei cultoribus

Offline tcolon90

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 89
  • Faith: The Way
  • Jurisdiction: + Michael - Diocese NY & NJ
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #193 on: February 16, 2017, 01:25:07 PM »
Which leads to my next point. If a sacrament or action of the church can be later deemed ineffective even though at the time it was declared to be, then how reliable is the church's sacraments. They're either valid or not.
"For where the body is, the eagles will gather."

Offline tcolon90

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 89
  • Faith: The Way
  • Jurisdiction: + Michael - Diocese NY & NJ
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #194 on: February 16, 2017, 01:27:28 PM »
Yes, the magical "ex cathedra", which is just a convenient way of saying, "he's right when he's right, and he's wrong when he's wrong."

Which, in turn, essentially boils down to "He's right when I say so, and he's wrong when I say so."  IOW, Protestantism.
Nah, another cliché.
 I will not post anymore to this thread as it is leading nowhere. At the end, it is always about papal primacy. Always the same.

The OP was asking about AL and how it relates to infallibility. So yes it is about the pope and his primacy.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 01:28:27 PM by tcolon90 »
"For where the body is, the eagles will gather."

Offline PJ26

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 179
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Russian - is there another one? ;)
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #195 on: February 16, 2017, 02:39:17 PM »
A couple of things.

AL is NOT ex cathedra, it does not IN ANY WAY touch on the issue of papal infallibility.  It does, however, touch on some other key issues such as papal authority and the nature of objective truth and perhaps whether or not such a thing even exists.

As quoted above Lumen Gentium says:

"Religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will."

Is this statement of Vatican II true or false? Period.  Stop trying to qualify it.

The fact that AL is not ex cathedra is IRRELEVANT if the above statement is true, it explicitly says so.

The pope has said that the authoritative interpretation of AL is the one given by Cardinal Schonborn who has himself said it is magisterial and part of sacred doctrine.  If you want to say the pope and one of his chief theologians are wrong - on what do you base that? What are your qualifications to do so?

Look, the very people who are criticizing Pope Francis and Amoris Laetitia would be having an absolute aneurism if I said the exact same things about John Paul II and Familiaris Consortio.  Don't deny it.  What's the difference?  Francis is pope.  JP2 was pope.  Amoris Laetitia is a post-synodal Apostolic Exhortation.  Familiaris Consortio is a post-synodal Apostolic Exhortation.  The only difference is the content.  I don't like the content.  I don't agree with it.  So I'm going to dismiss it.  Since when can a Catholic pick and choose what he or she will and will not accept?  Again, if I said that 30 years ago about Familiaris Consortio, I would be labeled disobedient, a heretic, etc.

If you want to say I don't have to pay attention to AL because it's heretical and Francis is a heretic and not really pope, that's fine, make that argument.  If you want to say Francis is the vicar of Christ, possessing the keys, so he can change moral truths and redefine things like adultery, that's fine too.  But stop being inconsistent and hypocritical applying Catholic teaching one way when you like what the pope says and another way when you don't. 



« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 02:40:37 PM by PJ26 »

Offline Lepanto

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 310
  • Faith: Roman Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Munich and Freising
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #196 on: February 16, 2017, 03:22:35 PM »
@PJ 26: Thanks. As I said, I don't want to comment anymore, sorry. Probably other RCs here want.
una cum famulo tuo Papa nostro et Antistite nostro et omnibus orthodoxis atque catholicæ et apostolicæ fidei cultoribus

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,993
  • Pray for me Sts. Mina & Kyrillos for my interviews
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #197 on: February 16, 2017, 03:23:09 PM »
God bless you brother.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Agabus

  • The user formerly known as Agabus.
  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,551
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #198 on: February 16, 2017, 05:22:01 PM »
"It's intuitively obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. In what world is a postpositivist even related to Zizek or phenomenology? The answer is - in no world.

I for one do not support the Council of Crete and am very critical of the Patriarchate of Constantinople and its occasional proclamations of a very...let's say a peculiar ecclesiology. Holding this position does not therefore demand that I sell my soul down the river as a political shill.

In short, you've done nothing more than prove my point, which is that you are not actually all that well-principled. You're just a naïve reactionary contrarian."

Ahh poor Mr Rozhek you need to calm down and listen a bit more to your Greek grandmother. All that Zizek has gone to your head. I'm sorry that I touched on a sore point and your rhizomes have become all mixed up, but never fear. God is merciful! You need not get your knickers in a twist. I recommend a year or two in a (Russian) monastery and absolutely no Zizek (or even Yannaras!). It will be very good for you. Please keep me informed of your progress.

Try Popper, idiot.


Ad hom are not allowed in this forum. This goes for both of you.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline christiane777

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 342
  • and drinketh water of the raine of heauen
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: God
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #199 on: February 17, 2017, 10:18:49 PM »
I don't know if this has been hit on yet, but the other thing about AL - why is only communion for the divorce and remarried subject to this discernment / conscience exception of teaching?  What prevents discernment/conscience from applying to all sins?  Once the conscience (of a priest or an individual) is overriding teaching, law, on one issue, what is to prevent a universal application?  Why is one sin in one situation different?  CDR is already being extended to all 'irregular situations.'  At least there is talk of that.   It just seems like kind of a lame, subversive argument.  The revenge of the C students.  I think most concede the conservatives hit the books a little harder... :laugh:  It is amazing how much harm it is doing to the Church too.  Scattering not gathering.
I was in the spirit on the Lords day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Offline Vanhyo

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 598
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Layman in the Bulgarian Orthodox Church
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #200 on: February 18, 2017, 10:06:53 AM »
nvm, out of context.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 10:07:42 AM by Vanhyo »

Offline Greystone

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Faith: ex-Catholic looking for truth
  • Jurisdiction: I don't know
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #201 on: February 20, 2017, 12:34:35 AM »
The principle problem with Amoris Laetitia is that it is reflective of the arbitrary Catholic legalism that has dominated the church for centuries. This is how I think things have played out with this controversial document:

-Pope Francis wants divorced and remarried catholics to be reintegrated into the church and provide a pathway where they could possibly receive communion.

-Pope Francis knows he can't blatantly change doctrine on this issue, so he calls a synod that issues a document that contains one tiny, deliberately ambiguous statement that bishops can interpret in a way that justifies their allowing divorced and remarried to receive communion.

-This would technically be an abuse under traditional Catholic teaching, but it seems this Pope is so focused on discernment and the individual conscience that he seems to marginalize such concerns under the assumption that 'God understands when it comes to gray areas',  a dubious proposition.

-The fact that it at worst could be called an abuse allows the Pope to get the "best" of both worlds. He can reintegrate divorced and remarrieds (and presumably their children who have yet to marry) at least when it comes to appearances and side step the issue of a doctrinal change claiming none has occurred. In this sense the infamous footnote in AL basically attempts to serve as 'plausible deniability' for Bishops who permit divorced and remarrieds to receive where they can attempt to assert that they have a clean conscience by claiming they thought interpreting that ambiguous footnote a certain way was valid.

-So ultimately this whole controversy is about Francis trying to orchestrate a convoluted pathway to navigate his way around Catholic legalism which has spun such a tangled web that it creates the potential for chaos on the reexamination of any issue concerning the faith or morals.

Offline PJ26

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 179
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Russian - is there another one? ;)
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #202 on: February 20, 2017, 01:13:07 PM »
I wasn't planning on posting anything else in this thread, but I had to respond to this:

"The principle problem with Amoris Laetitia is that it is reflective of the arbitrary Catholic legalism that has dominated the church for centuries."

"ultimately this whole controversy is about Francis trying to orchestrate a convoluted pathway to navigate his way around Catholic legalism"

No.

I think people who are ignorant of their faith, if they are Catholic, and even those who belong to some other religion, but are keeping an eye on these matters, look at Pope Francis and say "Good for him for combating outdated moral and legalistic teachings.  I mean at least half of all marriages end in divorce, right? And everyone deserves a second chance after all."  Even the way Greystone phrases it - Pope Francis just wants to help out those poor folks who are divorced and remarried not feel so marginalized.  Who would have a problem with that?  That's where the focus is.

But, again, the thing is that these people are only CIVILLY remarried meaning, from a Catholic perspective, they aren't really remarried at all.  Not only are they having sexual relations outside of a sacramental marriage - a mortal sin - worse still, they are committing adultery - another mortal sin.  Then you're telling them they can receive communion in a state of mortal sin which is itself a mortal sin.  And if you die in mortal sin, you go to hell.  That is Catholic teaching.  So either the Catholic church is knowingly leading these people to hell, which really seems contradictory to the whole idea of being a church, or it is saying that the pope has the authority to change moral truths, or it is saying that what Catholicism has always taught is false, which is basically an admission that they aren't the true church after all. 

That is what this whole controversy is really about.



Offline Greystone

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Faith: ex-Catholic looking for truth
  • Jurisdiction: I don't know
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #203 on: February 22, 2017, 10:31:43 AM »


But, again, the thing is that these people are only CIVILLY remarried meaning, from a Catholic perspective, they aren't really remarried at all.  Not only are they having sexual relations outside of a sacramental marriage - a mortal sin - worse still, they are committing adultery - another mortal sin.  Then you're telling them they can receive communion in a state of mortal sin which is itself a mortal sin.  And if you die in mortal sin, you go to hell.  That is Catholic teaching.

So either the Catholic church is knowingly leading these people to hell, which really seems contradictory to the whole idea of being a church, or it is saying that the pope has the authority to change moral truths, or it is saying that what Catholicism has always taught is false, which is basically an admission that they aren't the true church after all. 

That is what this whole controversy is really about.

I'm giving Pope Francis the benefit of doubt by assuming he believes all of what you expressed in the first paragraph to a great extent. The thing is a mortal sin in Catholic teaching requires three factors: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. If an uninformed divorced and remarried (civil marriage) Catholic takes the advice of their priest or bishop (based on a liberal interpretation of AL) and is led to believe it is okay for them to receive communion, the case can be made that even if the grave matters exists regardless, that in following their conscience through serious "discernment" and by following the advice of their priest or Bishop they lack full knowledge (of the acts sinfulness and gravity) and also lack deliberate consent (by not explicitly intending to sin since they don't think they are doing any wrong). This is the legalism I'm talking about which I see Pope Francis as trying to get around by opening the door for a 'loophole' where a couple can do something objectively sinful, but subjectively not be culpable or less culpable because they are acting on the counsel of their priest or Bishop and their implementation of AL. Why would he want to do this? Who knows. But it seems to me Francis doesn't seem to think it's that big of a deal and that even if the couple is doing wrong..God will understand because they just want to be close to him and potentially bring their children into the Church as well.

Ultimately I don't know what Francis believes privately, but based on his public statements he seems to put more emphasis on the individual conscience, and the idea of personal discernment is always at the forefront when he speaks on this issue (much to the distress of traditionalists who continually emphasize doctrine).

« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 10:31:57 AM by Greystone »

Offline PJ26

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 179
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Russian - is there another one? ;)
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #204 on: February 22, 2017, 12:28:23 PM »
For the most part, I agree with what you're saying when looking at AL in the narrow context with which you are viewing it.  My point was that one should look at it in the broader context of the papacy and Catholic teaching.  That, for me, is where its real significance lies. 

The OP was about how AL is causing some to have a crisis of faith.  I don't think that it's the fact that on any given Sunday I see two people that I know to be "living in sin" get up and go to communion that causes me to have a crisis of faith.  When I was Catholic I always assumed a bunch of people standing in line for communion probably shouldn't be doing so.  There is basically zero sacramental discipline these days when it comes to communion in the Catholic church.  It's the fact that the Pope, episcopal conferences, and Cardinals are saying it's now OK that causes the crisis in faith (and if anyone wants to say: "Oh, the pope didn't say that or AL doesn't say that" be sure to reads Francis' letter to the church in Buenos Aires regarding the implementation of AL apart from the host of other actions that others are doing without any correction from him).

Unless one is a sedevacantist, i.e. believing Francis isn't really pope, I think a Catholic has to do an incredible amount of mental gymnastics, bordering on delusion, to say that Catholic teaching isn't changing here, that there is no contradiction between what is coming out of the Vatican and say the Council of Trent's teaching on adultery, and as such, what does that mean big picture?  Is the true church, the one Jesus founded, really one where its leader has absolute authority to either change moral truths or tell others to ignore them?  That's what is causing the crisis of faith and that's the real importance of AL and all that is happening because of it.



Offline benjohn146

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 476
    • Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church, Belleville, Ontario, Canada
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Metropolis of Toronto
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #205 on: February 22, 2017, 01:07:34 PM »
Quote
But it seems to me Francis doesn't seem to think it's that big of a deal and that even if the couple is doing wrong..God will understand because they just want to be close to him and potentially bring their children into the Church as well.

Might as well abolish all dogmas and canon law, because regardless of what your are doing, even if it is wrong, God will understand because they just want to be close to him. Might as well join the Protestant Churches since that they have been doing that for awhile.

No disrespect, but this is how I see things and why I think that the RCC is in complete apostasy. It is only a sign among others of its sickness.

St Makarios, pray for us.

Offline ErmyCath

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 227
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #206 on: February 22, 2017, 01:18:20 PM »


But, again, the thing is that these people are only CIVILLY remarried meaning, from a Catholic perspective, they aren't really remarried at all.  Not only are they having sexual relations outside of a sacramental marriage - a mortal sin - worse still, they are committing adultery - another mortal sin.  Then you're telling them they can receive communion in a state of mortal sin which is itself a mortal sin.  And if you die in mortal sin, you go to hell.  That is Catholic teaching.

So either the Catholic church is knowingly leading these people to hell, which really seems contradictory to the whole idea of being a church, or it is saying that the pope has the authority to change moral truths, or it is saying that what Catholicism has always taught is false, which is basically an admission that they aren't the true church after all. 

That is what this whole controversy is really about.

I'm giving Pope Francis the benefit of doubt by assuming he believes all of what you expressed in the first paragraph to a great extent. The thing is a mortal sin in Catholic teaching requires three factors: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. If an uninformed divorced and remarried (civil marriage) Catholic takes the advice of their priest or bishop (based on a liberal interpretation of AL) and is led to believe it is okay for them to receive communion, the case can be made that even if the grave matters exists regardless, that in following their conscience through serious "discernment" and by following the advice of their priest or Bishop they lack full knowledge (of the acts sinfulness and gravity) and also lack deliberate consent (by not explicitly intending to sin since they don't think they are doing any wrong). This is the legalism I'm talking about which I see Pope Francis as trying to get around by opening the door for a 'loophole' where a couple can do something objectively sinful, but subjectively not be culpable or less culpable because they are acting on the counsel of their priest or Bishop and their implementation of AL. Why would he want to do this? Who knows. But it seems to me Francis doesn't seem to think it's that big of a deal and that even if the couple is doing wrong..God will understand because they just want to be close to him and potentially bring their children into the Church as well.

Ultimately I don't know what Francis believes privately, but based on his public statements he seems to put more emphasis on the individual conscience, and the idea of personal discernment is always at the forefront when he speaks on this issue (much to the distress of traditionalists who continually emphasize doctrine).

The traditionalist Catholic problem with Francis's ideas in this regard, in addition to what PJ26 has stated, might be as follows: As you say, people are being led to partake of Communion in these situations on the advice of the pope, the bishops, and their priests so they might have a reduced level of culpability for the objective sacrilege taking place. But the answer to that is not to exploit a loophole in the law. The answer, according to the Catholic Church, is to promote better catechesis so that people can properly form their consciences and, as a result, ultimately bring their moral life into accord with the objective moral law, as defined by the Church over time.

So, as you say, this loophole might have the result of bringing people closer to God from an outsider perspective, but according to the Catholic teaching, these people are receiving Communion to their damnation whether they know it or not. They receive no grace through the reception of a sacrilegious Communion. So they are now being deluded by the very hierarchy who has the divine mandate to teach them the moral law and its attendant practices so that their souls will be saved.

As for their children, when the Church approves a sacrilege by downplaying the seriousness of adultery, what good is accomplished by bringing the children into Church? The Catholic Church has long taught that parents in these situations demonstrate a love of God through the tremendous sacrifices they make to live in accordance with the moral law. The children, though, are now taught the complete opposite.

All of this, of course, fails to account for precisely what PJ26 mentioned: namely, that the eternal consequences of these institutionalized sacrilegious Communions are never mentioned. So people in these situations can receive Communion and so feel as if they are part of the community -- but, as I mentioned, it is well-settled Catholic teaching that they cannot receive grace thereby, and they cannot receive valid absolution until they have a firm purpose of amendment for the sin. So the reception of Communion is  a hollow gesture of false inclusion since they are excluded from the life of the Church on the supernatural level and from the standpoint of eternity.

Whatever one thinks about the situation, it is the lack of continuity with the established practice that causes a crisis of faith, just as PJ26 so excellently described it a couple posts back.
"You must have an opinion on everything and loudly confront everyone with it." - Cyrillic

Offline petros22

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
  • Faith: Struggling Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #207 on: February 22, 2017, 06:55:38 PM »
Quote
Unless one is a sedevacantist, i.e. believing Francis isn't really pope, I think a Catholic has to do an incredible amount of mental gymnastics, bordering on delusion, to say that Catholic teaching isn't changing here, that there is no contradiction between what is coming out of the Vatican and say the Council of Trent's teaching on adultery, and as such, what does that mean big picture?  Is the true church, the one Jesus founded, really one where its leader has absolute authority to either change moral truths or tell others to ignore them?  That's what is causing the crisis of faith and that's the real importance of AL and all that is happening because of it.

This is essentially the conclusion I have come to. A lot of Catholics are trying to defend AL as being consistent with previous doctrine in some way, but I think its a convoluted argument. And if AL contradicts previous doctrine, that means logically speaking that either Francis isn't the Pope at all, or that the Pope is not infallible. Which means the RC is not what it claims to be.
Almighty God, unto whom all hearts be open, all desires known, and from whom no secretes are hid: cleanse the thoughts of our hearts by the inspiration of thy holy spirit, that we may perfectly love thee, and worthily magnify thy holy name: through Christ our Lord. Amen.

Offline tcolon90

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 89
  • Faith: The Way
  • Jurisdiction: + Michael - Diocese NY & NJ
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #208 on: February 22, 2017, 07:13:00 PM »
According to  Catholic doctrine I guess it's technically not ex cathedra. But I always thought that a bishop always speaks ex cathedra no matter when and where he speaks. I think it's strange that a bishop can be excommunicated for even holding a hereticsl belief but the pope is somehow immune to this?
"For where the body is, the eagles will gather."

Offline PJ26

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 179
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Russian - is there another one? ;)
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #209 on: February 22, 2017, 07:22:51 PM »
petros,

I would just suggest changing "that the Pope is not infallible" to something like "what Catholicism teaches about the papacy is false."  AL is not ex cathedra, so it doesn't touch on the specific issue of infallibility.  However, as Pastor Aeternus states implicitly and Lumen Gentium states explicitly, a Catholic has to obey the pope on matters of faith, morals, discipline, and governance even when not speaking infallibly.

Online Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 36,091
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #210 on: February 22, 2017, 07:23:58 PM »
One thing that I don't quite understand about all of this is: can't the Catholic Church (or the Pope, or whoever) just point to other ancient local orthodox catholic churches allowing divorce, as evidence that it isn't some betrayal of Tradition and stain on Church moral teachings? Or is Catholicism so far down the creek in developing their moral theology about divorce that they can't change canoes now?

Offline Justin Kolodziej

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 709
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of Atlanta
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #211 on: February 22, 2017, 07:36:01 PM »
According to  Catholic doctrine I guess it's technically not ex cathedra. But I always thought that a bishop always speaks ex cathedra no matter when and where he speaks. I think it's strange that a bishop can be excommunicated for even holding a hereticsl belief but the pope is somehow immune to this?
I don't think Catholics have ever defined ex cathedra in any meaningful way, other than to say the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption were defined ex cathedra, and argue over others like priestesses and "We declare, we define, we proclaim that it is necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff". Seems like a rather large oversight on an issue fundamental to the church of Rome.

As far as excommunicating the Pope for heresy...ask a sedevacantist, as that's their raison d'etre;)
Quote from: Nun M.
The dread Pantocrator...is also "Christouli mou", (my little Christ), who really listens when you run in to your neighborhood church on the way to work to cry and light a candle because your daughter is in trouble at school. The untouchable and all-holy Mother of God is also "Panayitsa mou", who really will take your part before the court of heaven because, just like your own mom, she’ll always stick up for her children, no matter how badly they’ve behaved.

Offline ErmyCath

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 227
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #212 on: February 22, 2017, 07:41:05 PM »
One thing that I don't quite understand about all of this is: can't the Catholic Church (or the Pope, or whoever) just point to other ancient local orthodox catholic churches allowing divorce, as evidence that it isn't some betrayal of Tradition and stain on Church moral teachings? Or is Catholicism so far down the creek in developing their moral theology about divorce that they can't change canoes now?

Presumably, it's the latter, due especially to the Canons of Trent, Session XXIV. The teaching against divorce (with its attendant focus on annulments) is incredibly well-established. It would be tantamount to a change of course in, say, teachings about the papacy, for example. That is to say, while some might welcome the change, the change itself would tend to undermine any claim to being "the Church" based on an exposed and clear lack of consistency.
"You must have an opinion on everything and loudly confront everyone with it." - Cyrillic

Offline tcolon90

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 89
  • Faith: The Way
  • Jurisdiction: + Michael - Diocese NY & NJ
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #213 on: February 22, 2017, 07:45:47 PM »
According to  Catholic doctrine I guess it's technically not ex cathedra. But I always thought that a bishop always speaks ex cathedra no matter when and where he speaks. I think it's strange that a bishop can be excommunicated for even holding a hereticsl belief but the pope is somehow immune to this?
I don't think Catholics have ever defined ex cathedra in any meaningful way, other than to say the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption were defined ex cathedra, and argue over others like priestesses and "We declare, we define, we proclaim that it is necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff". Seems like a rather large oversight on an issue fundamental to the church of Rome.

As far as excommunicating the Pope for heresy...ask a sedevacantist, as that's their raison d'etre;)

I could consult the Dimond brothers on this but they're unbearable to listen to. Can't have a reasonable discussion with a sede  without being slandered or angrily yelled at for heresy.
"For where the body is, the eagles will gather."

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,321
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic Church
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #214 on: February 22, 2017, 07:59:40 PM »
According to  Catholic doctrine I guess it's technically not ex cathedra. But I always thought that a bishop always speaks ex cathedra no matter when and where he speaks. I think it's strange that a bishop can be excommunicated for even holding a hereticsl belief but the pope is somehow immune to this?
I don't think Catholics have ever defined ex cathedra in any meaningful way, other than to say the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption were defined ex cathedra, and argue over others like priestesses and "We declare, we define, we proclaim that it is necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff". Seems like a rather large oversight on an issue fundamental to the church of Rome.

As far as excommunicating the Pope for heresy...ask a sedevacantist, as that's their raison d'etre;)

I could consult the Dimond brothers on this but they're unbearable to listen to. Can't have a reasonable discussion with a sede  without being slandered or angrily yelled at for heresy.

I mean, if you're dialoguing with them. Their monologues are nice to listen to.
This profile is defunct as of 11/8/2017. I created it before Orthodoxy, and have used it after Orthodoxy.

I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

I will likely lurk on this forum under a different name.

Offline PJ26

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 179
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Russian - is there another one? ;)
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #215 on: February 22, 2017, 08:11:54 PM »
"Presumably, it's the latter, due especially to the Canons of Trent, Session XXIV. The teaching against divorce (with its attendant focus on annulments) is incredibly well-established. It would be tantamount to a change of course in, say, teachings about the papacy, for example. That is to say, while some might welcome the change, the change itself would tend to undermine any claim to being "the Church" based on an exposed and clear lack of consistency."

^ This

For a Catholic, the Council of Trent is an ecumenical council and therefore its teachings on divorce, as they touch on morals, are infallible, directly inspired by the Holy Spirit, unchangeable.

If you say Trent is wrong then you are acknowledging that it is not really an ecumenical council after all and, if it wasn't, what about all of the other so-called post-schism ecumenical councils?  To invalidate one ecumenical council or one teaching of faith and morals of an ecumenical council is to potentially invalidate them all.

If you say it was right then, but wrong now, then you would be saying moral truth can change, that the Holy Spirit can change His mind.

But if it really is an ecumenical council and its teachings on morality are therefore infallible and unchangeable, then how do you explain what is currently happening at the Vatican?  That the pope, either by his action or inaction, is defying what he knows to be the express will of God and leading others to do the same?  Two other supposedly ecumenical councils, Vaticans 1 & 2, say that, if I'm Catholic, I have to obey him on matters of faith, morals, discipline, and governance even when not speaking infallibly.  Are those teachings of faith of an ecumenical council false?

When you get right down to it, it's Orthodoxy, sedevacantism, moral relativism, or denial.  I really don't see a plausible alternative.

Offline Rohzek

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,013
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #216 on: February 24, 2017, 03:06:26 AM »
Augustine was the greatest theologian. He is by the way very different from Luther and Calvin. He is a greater psychological genius than any other theologian and his insights on the relation between freedom and grace and the human condition before and after salvation is spot on. That is should be considered as just a fact.

Augustine's conception of grace and free will is actually pretty wretched. I much prefer Saint John Cassian's formulation.
what was his formulation?

As I understand it, the will of a human being was not so damaged to the extent that he or she was totally depraved. Rather it was damaged by the Fall to the extent that it inclines humanity towards sin. Whether or not God initiates the first encounter of grace, therefore, is somewhat of a moot question. Cassian suspected the answer varied from individual to individual. At the end of the day, however, he believed that the human will acts alongside the divine will, just as it occurs in the person of Christ. While lacking the term, one could say that he professed some form of deification or theosis, if you will. This is best exemplified in his analogy of the farmer. The farmer can plow the fields and plant the seeds, but without the rain it is all in vain. That is how Cassian conceives of salvation.
I agree with this view. Man has to respond freely to God's call. But it can't be the othar way around right, that man calls God and God saves man. God always makes the first move right?

I'm agnostic on the position. This is where my thought deviates from the Augustinian tradition. As I understand it, Augustinianism only accounts for one will, which is the human will. The human will is so damaged from the Fall that it can only choose to do evil. Therefore, God gives grace to people to restore their free will. This then leads to the question of predestination, in which Augustine explicitly states in his anti-Pelagian writings that God does not choose to save all and that those who have their free will restored are in some sense predestined to salvation. Throughout the entire framework of the Augustinian conception of grace and human free will, there really doesn't seem to be any place for free will. Before, it is too damaged to be considered free. And after, it is seized and made prisoner by God. It's a strange dichotomy between nihilism and tyranny. It's a crypto-monoenergism, if you will. This seems to me to contradict the example of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Who, at least in the Chalcedonian/post-Chalcedonian formulation, has both a human will and a divine will in a single person. Under this framework, I would argue that the question of grace vs. free will is entirely moot, and that the problem is obviated. Instead, human ambition and will ideally works in conjunction with God's will within the individual believer. The order of beginning simply doesn't matter. I think Cassian's formulation approaches this conception, so I prefer him to Augustine or even Pelagius, whose differences with Augustine were not all that great.

P.S. My apologies for the belated reply.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 03:10:09 AM by Rohzek »
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Lepanto

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 310
  • Faith: Roman Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Munich and Freising
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #217 on: February 24, 2017, 06:44:23 AM »
When you get right down to it, it's Orthodoxy, sedevacantism, moral relativism, or denial.  I really don't see a plausible alternative.
Nope. Did not want to post here anymore, but I can't refrain. NOPE.
Whom are you trying to convince? Yourself?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 06:51:49 AM by Lepanto »
una cum famulo tuo Papa nostro et Antistite nostro et omnibus orthodoxis atque catholicæ et apostolicæ fidei cultoribus

Offline PJ26

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 179
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Russian - is there another one? ;)
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #218 on: February 24, 2017, 08:52:27 AM »
Hey Lepanto.  It can be difficult to leave and keep away from some of these discussions, right?   :)

As I mentioned some time back, I would love to be able to convince myself of the truth of Catholicism.  It would make my life SO much easier.  But it's not true.  It's close, but Orthodoxy is the Truth. 

So what do you see as the alternative to the options I presented?

Offline Lepanto

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 310
  • Faith: Roman Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Munich and Freising
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #219 on: February 24, 2017, 09:55:23 AM »
Hey Lepanto.  It can be difficult to leave and keep away from some of these discussions, right?   :)

As I mentioned some time back, I would love to be able to convince myself of the truth of Catholicism.  It would make my life SO much easier.  But it's not true.  It's close, but Orthodoxy is the Truth. 

So what do you see as the alternative to the options I presented?
The answer is simple and obvious. Just stay RC, be it trad or mainstream. You are blowing the whole thing up. It is a foot note in a pastoral guideline. A foot note! Come on. I admit that it is a serious problem, but one must not despair. You basically saw that the Catholic church has some severe internal upheavals going on. Ok. I see that, too. You went away. This feels like defeatism to me - sorry for the hard word, but do not know what else to say. You cannot jump ship just because Peter's boat is rocking.
Apostasy is grave matter.
AL's foot note has zero implications for your salvation unless you are divorced and remarried and even then it need not be. You are trying to build up a contradiction using Lumen Gentium. But the pope never said you had to receive as a divorced remarried not living as brother and sister! I am by no means disobedient here. This is just your shooting in the dark.
una cum famulo tuo Papa nostro et Antistite nostro et omnibus orthodoxis atque catholicæ et apostolicæ fidei cultoribus

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,078
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #220 on: February 24, 2017, 11:12:59 AM »
"It's a serious problem.  No big deal!"
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,296
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #221 on: February 24, 2017, 11:33:55 AM »
Apostasy is grave matter.

Is converting from Catholicism to Orthodoxy really apostasy?
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #222 on: February 24, 2017, 11:37:57 AM »
Apostasy is grave matter.

Is converting from Catholicism to Orthodoxy really apostasy?
No. Apostasy is to renounce your belief in Christ and God. And even more to speak against it to other people. I find it ridiculous to believe that converting from one church to another is apostasy. Only God knows who is an apostate. And the apostate himself maybe.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline benjohn146

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 476
    • Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church, Belleville, Ontario, Canada
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Metropolis of Toronto
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #223 on: February 24, 2017, 11:53:12 AM »
Apostasy is grave matter.

Is converting from Catholicism to Orthodoxy really apostasy?

For RC, yes. There is no salvation outside the RCC according to them.
St Makarios, pray for us.

Offline Alpo

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,249
  • Je suis Janusz Korwin-Mikke
  • Faith: I'm a Vegan
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to ROCOR
Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #224 on: February 24, 2017, 12:00:18 PM »
Apostasy is grave matter.

Is converting from Catholicism to Orthodoxy really apostasy?

Yes, if we're talking about 1200s Catholicism.

For RC, yes. There is no salvation outside the RCC according to them.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34