Author Topic: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith  (Read 10941 times)

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #135 on: February 14, 2017, 12:45:46 PM »
Of course I accept the church's distinction between NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial birth control (available at death merchants Planned Parenthood).

Allowing a calendar/ mucus tests to dictate when you have sex is just as artificial as anything else. You are still trying to have sex without conceiving a child. If you can't see how this is a major departure from the tradition you brag about that only speaks to your historical ignorance.

Too bad Post of the Month is no more. This would have been a worthy candidate.

That's why I created the edifying posts thread.

And yea, I think Iconodule makes a slam dunk point that Roman Catholics seem to conveniently ignore.  If they were consistent as they say, they would condemn BOTH "NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial non-abortive birth control (available at your nearest grocery shop)."
Why is it that NFP is a source of so many discussions on this and other Christian boards?
This is not a question of consistency but of economy. Nobody ever says that NFP is the ideal, the best possible thing under the sun. It is a compromise which can work for any couple. Now, if you know a better solution, please go ahead and share it!

Oh, now we think economia is appropriate when it comes to contraception.
Is it not? But it is when it comes to second and third marriages?

If you want to justify NFP on the basis of economy, I for one won't object to that, but by the same token you cannot then turn around and condemn us for the Orthodox Church's economy on contraception and marriage.

I don't want to condemn anyone. I am pretty new to this forum, do not want to get banned and I have no idea which disagreements there were in the past with other RCs. As a matter of fact, I already regret replying in this thread. It is leading just to ever more polemics and bad feelings, I fear.
In the end, I think matters such as NFP are strictly private stuff which couples should resolve on their own or with the help of a spiritual father, if needed, and leave it at that. This is I guess something we can agree on. I am sick of others ridiculing Catholics for NFP.

Like I said, it was Young Fogey (a Catholic) who raised the issue on this thread. Young Fogey has an established habit of coming onto the forum, making some cheap shots about contraception, and then disappearing after his hypocrisy is revealed, only to resurface the next year with the same cheap shots.

If you're sick of being ridiculed for NFP, I suggest you take it up with Young Fogey and others like him who brandish modern Catholic teaching on contraception as an emblem of Catholic superiority.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 12:49:27 PM by Iconodule »
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #136 on: February 14, 2017, 12:48:19 PM »
Of course I accept the church's distinction between NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial birth control (available at death merchants Planned Parenthood).

Allowing a calendar/ mucus tests to dictate when you have sex is just as artificial as anything else. You are still trying to have sex without conceiving a child. If you can't see how this is a major departure from the tradition you brag about that only speaks to your historical ignorance.

Too bad Post of the Month is no more. This would have been a worthy candidate.

That's why I created the edifying posts thread.

And yea, I think Iconodule makes a slam dunk point that Roman Catholics seem to conveniently ignore.  If they were consistent as they say, they would condemn BOTH "NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial non-abortive birth control (available at your nearest grocery shop)."
Why is it that NFP is a source of so many discussions on this and other Christian boards?
This is not a question of consistency but of economy. Nobody ever says that NFP is the ideal, the best possible thing under the sun. It is a compromise which can work for any couple. Now, if you know a better solution, please go ahead and share it!

Oh, now we think economia is appropriate when it comes to contraception.
Is it not? But it is when it comes to second and third marriages?

If you want to justify NFP on the basis of economy, I for one won't object to that, but by the same token you cannot then turn around and condemn us for the Orthodox Church's economy on contraception and marriage.

I don't want to condemn anyone. I am pretty new to this forum, do not want to get banned and I have no idea which disagreements there were in the past with other RCs. As a matter of fact, I already regret replying in this thread. It is leading just to ever more polemics and bad feelings, I fear.
In the end, I think matters such as NFP are strictly private stuff which couples should resolve on their own or with the help of a spiritual father, if needed, and leave it at that. This is I guess something we can agree on. I am sick of others ridiculing Catholics for NFP.

And I'm sick of Catholics being hypocritically holier than thou in regards sexual ethics and ridicule Orthodox for their rules of economia.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 12:49:15 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline tcolon90

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #137 on: February 14, 2017, 12:54:07 PM »
It seems there is some Schadenfreude .
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

I derive no pleasure from observing what the Roman Catholics are going through; I believe it is an inevitable consequence of their theological system (whether or not the current controversy is more or less serious than previous controversies). 

Roman Catholics believe that the Popes are heads of the Church on earth, that they have universal, immediate, ordinary, personal jurisdiction over all Catholics, that they are infallible when speaking ex cathedra, that even when not speaking so their teachings and rulings are to be given pious assent by the faithful, etc.  Yet, when a Pope teaches something, the people squirm according to their own predilections. 

So, for example, when Pope John Paul II authoritatively taught that women couldn't be ordained to the priesthood, those who supported the prohibition of women's ordination loved and supported the exercise of papal authority, while those who didn't went on about how it was not (clearly) an infallible definition so perhaps another Pope could rule differently, that it only spoke of priests and not deacons, etc. 

A similar thing is happening with AL.  Those who support the proposal to admit divorced and remarried people to Communion are happy to refer to AL as a magisterial document, highlight the Pope's authority and jurisdiction, begin to implement it, and punish those who do not.  Those who oppose the proposal claim that AL is not magisterial, is not a teaching, that Popes are not always infallible, that some should be opposed and formally corrected, etc.  Often, those who are ultramontane on one issue are left-of-Anglican on others. 

Roman Catholics have a love/hate relationship with the Christian East, and which is at play depends on whether our position is agreeable to them.  So, for example, the same crowd that invokes us as an example of liturgical conservatism/traditionalism in order to combat the myriad insanities found in RC churches on any given day will also self-servingly attack us on our "teaching" on divorce and remarriage (which even their own Cardinals do not really understand because they insist on interpreting it through their own theological system rather than learning ours) because it makes them feel good to believe they have not "sold out".   

I don't see "laetitia" in any of this.  What I see is a lot of confusion among people who are united by a belief in the Pope's authority but only put it into practice when the Pope agrees with them.  And then their apologists wish to impose their theological system on us as an element of apostolic faith by pointing to our alleged confusion, lack of authority, doctrinal deviations, etc. because we don't have that belief.

On the one hand, I am sad for them.  On the other hand, they seem to prefer their system as is and wish for us to submit to it: while I wish them well, we could never do such a thing because then we, like them, would be abandoning the Church of Christ and its divinely-revealed faith for a religion of mere man, by mere man, for mere man, as mere man.   

The RC doesn't allow remarried or divorced individuals to dine with Christ ? I need clarification. Is this before a confession and penance or even after? Is this seen as in unforgivable sin to them?
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Offline beebert

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #138 on: February 14, 2017, 12:57:30 PM »
It seems there is some Schadenfreude .
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

I derive no pleasure from observing what the Roman Catholics are going through; I believe it is an inevitable consequence of their theological system (whether or not the current controversy is more or less serious than previous controversies). 

Roman Catholics believe that the Popes are heads of the Church on earth, that they have universal, immediate, ordinary, personal jurisdiction over all Catholics, that they are infallible when speaking ex cathedra, that even when not speaking so their teachings and rulings are to be given pious assent by the faithful, etc.  Yet, when a Pope teaches something, the people squirm according to their own predilections. 

So, for example, when Pope John Paul II authoritatively taught that women couldn't be ordained to the priesthood, those who supported the prohibition of women's ordination loved and supported the exercise of papal authority, while those who didn't went on about how it was not (clearly) an infallible definition so perhaps another Pope could rule differently, that it only spoke of priests and not deacons, etc. 

A similar thing is happening with AL.  Those who support the proposal to admit divorced and remarried people to Communion are happy to refer to AL as a magisterial document, highlight the Pope's authority and jurisdiction, begin to implement it, and punish those who do not.  Those who oppose the proposal claim that AL is not magisterial, is not a teaching, that Popes are not always infallible, that some should be opposed and formally corrected, etc.  Often, those who are ultramontane on one issue are left-of-Anglican on others. 

Roman Catholics have a love/hate relationship with the Christian East, and which is at play depends on whether our position is agreeable to them.  So, for example, the same crowd that invokes us as an example of liturgical conservatism/traditionalism in order to combat the myriad insanities found in RC churches on any given day will also self-servingly attack us on our "teaching" on divorce and remarriage (which even their own Cardinals do not really understand because they insist on interpreting it through their own theological system rather than learning ours) because it makes them feel good to believe they have not "sold out".   

I don't see "laetitia" in any of this.  What I see is a lot of confusion among people who are united by a belief in the Pope's authority but only put it into practice when the Pope agrees with them.  And then their apologists wish to impose their theological system on us as an element of apostolic faith by pointing to our alleged confusion, lack of authority, doctrinal deviations, etc. because we don't have that belief.

On the one hand, I am sad for them.  On the other hand, they seem to prefer their system as is and wish for us to submit to it: while I wish them well, we could never do such a thing because then we, like them, would be abandoning the Church of Christ and its divinely-revealed faith for a religion of mere man, by mere man, for mere man, as mere man.   

The RC doesn't allow remarried or divorced individuals to dine with Christ ? I need clarification. Is this before a confession and penance or even after? Is this seen as in unforgivable sin to them?
Yes it has become that way which is absolutely absurd
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #139 on: February 14, 2017, 01:00:10 PM »
It seems there is some Schadenfreude .
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

I derive no pleasure from observing what the Roman Catholics are going through; I believe it is an inevitable consequence of their theological system (whether or not the current controversy is more or less serious than previous controversies). 

Roman Catholics believe that the Popes are heads of the Church on earth, that they have universal, immediate, ordinary, personal jurisdiction over all Catholics, that they are infallible when speaking ex cathedra, that even when not speaking so their teachings and rulings are to be given pious assent by the faithful, etc.  Yet, when a Pope teaches something, the people squirm according to their own predilections. 

So, for example, when Pope John Paul II authoritatively taught that women couldn't be ordained to the priesthood, those who supported the prohibition of women's ordination loved and supported the exercise of papal authority, while those who didn't went on about how it was not (clearly) an infallible definition so perhaps another Pope could rule differently, that it only spoke of priests and not deacons, etc. 

A similar thing is happening with AL.  Those who support the proposal to admit divorced and remarried people to Communion are happy to refer to AL as a magisterial document, highlight the Pope's authority and jurisdiction, begin to implement it, and punish those who do not.  Those who oppose the proposal claim that AL is not magisterial, is not a teaching, that Popes are not always infallible, that some should be opposed and formally corrected, etc.  Often, those who are ultramontane on one issue are left-of-Anglican on others. 

Roman Catholics have a love/hate relationship with the Christian East, and which is at play depends on whether our position is agreeable to them.  So, for example, the same crowd that invokes us as an example of liturgical conservatism/traditionalism in order to combat the myriad insanities found in RC churches on any given day will also self-servingly attack us on our "teaching" on divorce and remarriage (which even their own Cardinals do not really understand because they insist on interpreting it through their own theological system rather than learning ours) because it makes them feel good to believe they have not "sold out".   

I don't see "laetitia" in any of this.  What I see is a lot of confusion among people who are united by a belief in the Pope's authority but only put it into practice when the Pope agrees with them.  And then their apologists wish to impose their theological system on us as an element of apostolic faith by pointing to our alleged confusion, lack of authority, doctrinal deviations, etc. because we don't have that belief.

On the one hand, I am sad for them.  On the other hand, they seem to prefer their system as is and wish for us to submit to it: while I wish them well, we could never do such a thing because then we, like them, would be abandoning the Church of Christ and its divinely-revealed faith for a religion of mere man, by mere man, for mere man, as mere man.   

The RC doesn't allow remarried or divorced individuals to dine with Christ ? I need clarification. Is this before a confession and penance or even after? Is this seen as in unforgivable sin to them?
Yes it has become that way which is absolutely absurd

Absolutely untrue. There is no such thing as an unforgivable sin. Did anyone actually read AL or at least a summary?
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Offline PJ26

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #140 on: February 14, 2017, 01:01:54 PM »
"In the end, I think matters such as NFP are strictly private stuff which couples should resolve on their own or with the help of a spiritual father, if needed, and leave it at that."

I'm curious what other "matters" would you define as being "strictly private stuff which couples should resolve on their own or with the help of a spiritual father."  Because it seems to me that, returning to the original theme of this thread, one could say the same thing about communion for the divorced and civilly remarried.  It's exactly what the church in Germany is saying.  Talk to your pastor, and if he's ok with you receiving communion, go for it.  I don't really see a difference in substance...

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #141 on: February 14, 2017, 01:07:45 PM »
"In the end, I think matters such as NFP are strictly private stuff which couples should resolve on their own or with the help of a spiritual father, if needed, and leave it at that."

I'm curious what other "matters" would you define as being "strictly private stuff which couples should resolve on their own or with the help of a spiritual father."  Because it seems to me that, returning to the original theme of this thread, one could say the same thing about communion for the divorced and civilly remarried.  It's exactly what the church in Germany is saying.  Talk to your pastor, and if he's ok with you receiving communion, go for it.  I don't really see a difference in substance...
Don't tell me about the church in Germany. Cardinal Marx, being one force behind that, happens to be my bishop  :(
I admit that I struggle with this more than a bit.
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Offline PJ26

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #142 on: February 14, 2017, 01:13:44 PM »
What is it that you struggle with?

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #143 on: February 14, 2017, 01:26:35 PM »
What is it that you struggle with?
Ah, nevermind. In any case, you as a former trad RC would tell me how you began to have doubts and how swimming the Bosporus (or Moskwa) resolved them all and how you never regretted it.
But, as I stated earlier, there is but one reason to leave the Catholic church.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 01:33:19 PM by Lepanto »
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Offline PJ26

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #144 on: February 14, 2017, 01:44:51 PM »
Oh c'mon...what is that you struggle with?

Let me tell you.  I wish Catholicism was right.  I was Catholic all my life.  Played priest as a boy.  Became an altar boy.  Went to seminary.  When that didn't work out I got married to a woman who was nominally Catholic.  Convinced her just how important the faith was.  Went on pilgrimages to Rome, Guadalupe, Fatima, and Lourdes.  My decision to convert almost ended my marriage.  Even going on three years now being Orthodox and it's still raw.  It's awful not going to church together.  Our wedding anniversary falls on a Sunday this year.  She will go to her church and I will go to mine.  We don't have children of our own, but we have two nephews, Catholic, who are like sons to us, approaching their first communion and I can't be their sponsor.  You think I wouldn't love to be proved wrong, even now? "Swimming the Bosporus" has been painful and traumatic causing more problems than it solved.  But, no, in spite of everything I don't regret it, because no matter how much I might wish it to be otherwise, Orthodoxy is right.  Like it or not, accept it or not, it's the truth.  That's all there is to it.

Offline benjohn146

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #145 on: February 14, 2017, 02:14:43 PM »
Oh c'mon...what is that you struggle with?

Let me tell you.  I wish Catholicism was right.  I was Catholic all my life.  Played priest as a boy.  Became an altar boy.  Went to seminary.  When that didn't work out I got married to a woman who was nominally Catholic.  Convinced her just how important the faith was.  Went on pilgrimages to Rome, Guadalupe, Fatima, and Lourdes.  My decision to convert almost ended my marriage.  Even going on three years now being Orthodox and it's still raw.  It's awful not going to church together.  Our wedding anniversary falls on a Sunday this year.  She will go to her church and I will go to mine.  We don't have children of our own, but we have two nephews, Catholic, who are like sons to us, approaching their first communion and I can't be their sponsor.  You think I wouldn't love to be proved wrong, even now? "Swimming the Bosporus" has been painful and traumatic causing more problems than it solved.  But, no, in spite of everything I don't regret it, because no matter how much I might wish it to be otherwise, Orthodoxy is right.  Like it or not, accept it or not, it's the truth.  That's all there is to it.

+1

I was RC too. It wasn't out of conveniences that I've crossed the Bosporus. It was for the love of Truth and Christ Who established His Church and was kept from heresies in what is known as the Orthodox Church. It is for this love of Christ and His Truth that my marriage has collapsed as I do not accept to live like regular folks, but to live the Gospel as the Church and its 2000 years of Holy Wisdom taught us to do.

I cant speak for others, but when I am talking to other converts, no one ever said that it was convenient.

Believe me, no offense intended, but RC is easy and convenient. Orthodoxy is far from being convenient: it is about denying oneself and picking up its Cross daily.
St Makarios, pray for us.

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #146 on: February 14, 2017, 02:29:19 PM »
Oh c'mon...what is that you struggle with?

Let me tell you.  I wish Catholicism was right.  I was Catholic all my life.  Played priest as a boy.  Became an altar boy.  Went to seminary.  When that didn't work out I got married to a woman who was nominally Catholic.  Convinced her just how important the faith was.  Went on pilgrimages to Rome, Guadalupe, Fatima, and Lourdes.  My decision to convert almost ended my marriage.  Even going on three years now being Orthodox and it's still raw.  It's awful not going to church together.  Our wedding anniversary falls on a Sunday this year.  She will go to her church and I will go to mine.  We don't have children of our own, but we have two nephews, Catholic, who are like sons to us, approaching their first communion and I can't be their sponsor.  You think I wouldn't love to be proved wrong, even now? "Swimming the Bosporus" has been painful and traumatic causing more problems than it solved.  But, no, in spite of everything I don't regret it, because no matter how much I might wish it to be otherwise, Orthodoxy is right.  Like it or not, accept it or not, it's the truth.  That's all there is to it.

I perfectly understand how hard it must be for you. It's the same for me, just roles reversed: My wife is orthodox. But for the very same reason you had to leave, I must stay: Catholicism is right. It is the truth. AL and anything else that might happen in this pontificate does not change this in the least.
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Offline beebert

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #147 on: February 14, 2017, 02:45:17 PM »
Oh c'mon...what is that you struggle with?

Let me tell you.  I wish Catholicism was right.  I was Catholic all my life.  Played priest as a boy.  Became an altar boy.  Went to seminary.  When that didn't work out I got married to a woman who was nominally Catholic.  Convinced her just how important the faith was.  Went on pilgrimages to Rome, Guadalupe, Fatima, and Lourdes.  My decision to convert almost ended my marriage.  Even going on three years now being Orthodox and it's still raw.  It's awful not going to church together.  Our wedding anniversary falls on a Sunday this year.  She will go to her church and I will go to mine.  We don't have children of our own, but we have two nephews, Catholic, who are like sons to us, approaching their first communion and I can't be their sponsor.  You think I wouldn't love to be proved wrong, even now? "Swimming the Bosporus" has been painful and traumatic causing more problems than it solved.  But, no, in spite of everything I don't regret it, because no matter how much I might wish it to be otherwise, Orthodoxy is right.  Like it or not, accept it or not, it's the truth.  That's all there is to it.

I perfectly understand how hard it must be for you. It's the same for me, just roles reversed: My wife is orthodox. But for the very same reason you had to leave, I must stay: Catholicism is right. It is the truth. AL and anything else that might happen in this pontificate does not change this in the least.
I find this a big problem within christendom. So many claim protestantism is right, others catholicism and then others orthodoxy. Isn't Christ the truth? Nothing But Christ. There are plenty of Saints both within orthodox and catcholic Church. Or am I wrong?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline benjohn146

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #148 on: February 14, 2017, 02:50:31 PM »
Oh c'mon...what is that you struggle with?

Let me tell you.  I wish Catholicism was right.  I was Catholic all my life.  Played priest as a boy.  Became an altar boy.  Went to seminary.  When that didn't work out I got married to a woman who was nominally Catholic.  Convinced her just how important the faith was.  Went on pilgrimages to Rome, Guadalupe, Fatima, and Lourdes.  My decision to convert almost ended my marriage.  Even going on three years now being Orthodox and it's still raw.  It's awful not going to church together.  Our wedding anniversary falls on a Sunday this year.  She will go to her church and I will go to mine.  We don't have children of our own, but we have two nephews, Catholic, who are like sons to us, approaching their first communion and I can't be their sponsor.  You think I wouldn't love to be proved wrong, even now? "Swimming the Bosporus" has been painful and traumatic causing more problems than it solved.  But, no, in spite of everything I don't regret it, because no matter how much I might wish it to be otherwise, Orthodoxy is right.  Like it or not, accept it or not, it's the truth.  That's all there is to it.

I perfectly understand how hard it must be for you. It's the same for me, just roles reversed: My wife is orthodox. But for the very same reason you had to leave, I must stay: Catholicism is right. It is the truth. AL and anything else that might happen in this pontificate does not change this in the least.
I find this a big problem within christendom. So many claim protestantism is right, others catholicism and then others orthodoxy. Isn't Christ the truth? Nothing But Christ. There are plenty of Saints both within orthodox and catcholic Church. Or am I wrong?

Please, define for us the following:

Who is Christ?
St Makarios, pray for us.

Offline PJ26

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #149 on: February 14, 2017, 02:57:05 PM »
To Lepanto,

Oh well.  Maybe we'll talk more as things unfold, although I must say that I find your statement "AL and anything else that might happen in this pontificate does not change this in the least" interesting considering just how much might actually still happen and how that will then need to be squared with teachings the Catholic church considers infallible both as regards marriage and the papacy.  Anyway, agree to disagree then for the moment at least.  All the best to you and your wife. :)

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #150 on: February 14, 2017, 03:15:53 PM »
It seems there is some Schadenfreude .
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

I derive no pleasure from observing what the Roman Catholics are going through; I believe it is an inevitable consequence of their theological system (whether or not the current controversy is more or less serious than previous controversies). 

Roman Catholics believe that the Popes are heads of the Church on earth, that they have universal, immediate, ordinary, personal jurisdiction over all Catholics, that they are infallible when speaking ex cathedra, that even when not speaking so their teachings and rulings are to be given pious assent by the faithful, etc.  Yet, when a Pope teaches something, the people squirm according to their own predilections. 

So, for example, when Pope John Paul II authoritatively taught that women couldn't be ordained to the priesthood, those who supported the prohibition of women's ordination loved and supported the exercise of papal authority, while those who didn't went on about how it was not (clearly) an infallible definition so perhaps another Pope could rule differently, that it only spoke of priests and not deacons, etc. 

A similar thing is happening with AL.  Those who support the proposal to admit divorced and remarried people to Communion are happy to refer to AL as a magisterial document, highlight the Pope's authority and jurisdiction, begin to implement it, and punish those who do not.  Those who oppose the proposal claim that AL is not magisterial, is not a teaching, that Popes are not always infallible, that some should be opposed and formally corrected, etc.  Often, those who are ultramontane on one issue are left-of-Anglican on others. 

Roman Catholics have a love/hate relationship with the Christian East, and which is at play depends on whether our position is agreeable to them.  So, for example, the same crowd that invokes us as an example of liturgical conservatism/traditionalism in order to combat the myriad insanities found in RC churches on any given day will also self-servingly attack us on our "teaching" on divorce and remarriage (which even their own Cardinals do not really understand because they insist on interpreting it through their own theological system rather than learning ours) because it makes them feel good to believe they have not "sold out".   

I don't see "laetitia" in any of this.  What I see is a lot of confusion among people who are united by a belief in the Pope's authority but only put it into practice when the Pope agrees with them.  And then their apologists wish to impose their theological system on us as an element of apostolic faith by pointing to our alleged confusion, lack of authority, doctrinal deviations, etc. because we don't have that belief.

On the one hand, I am sad for them.  On the other hand, they seem to prefer their system as is and wish for us to submit to it: while I wish them well, we could never do such a thing because then we, like them, would be abandoning the Church of Christ and its divinely-revealed faith for a religion of mere man, by mere man, for mere man, as mere man.   

The RC doesn't allow remarried or divorced individuals to dine with Christ ? I need clarification. Is this before a confession and penance or even after? Is this seen as in unforgivable sin to them?

I think their position is that a divorced person who remarries without having had his previous marriage declared null by an ecclesiastical tribunal is still sacramentally married to the first spouse: hence, adultery.  And unrepentant adultery is what prevents such a person from receiving the sacraments. 
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline beebert

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #151 on: February 14, 2017, 03:56:05 PM »
Oh c'mon...what is that you struggle with?

Let me tell you.  I wish Catholicism was right.  I was Catholic all my life.  Played priest as a boy.  Became an altar boy.  Went to seminary.  When that didn't work out I got married to a woman who was nominally Catholic.  Convinced her just how important the faith was.  Went on pilgrimages to Rome, Guadalupe, Fatima, and Lourdes.  My decision to convert almost ended my marriage.  Even going on three years now being Orthodox and it's still raw.  It's awful not going to church together.  Our wedding anniversary falls on a Sunday this year.  She will go to her church and I will go to mine.  We don't have children of our own, but we have two nephews, Catholic, who are like sons to us, approaching their first communion and I can't be their sponsor.  You think I wouldn't love to be proved wrong, even now? "Swimming the Bosporus" has been painful and traumatic causing more problems than it solved.  But, no, in spite of everything I don't regret it, because no matter how much I might wish it to be otherwise, Orthodoxy is right.  Like it or not, accept it or not, it's the truth.  That's all there is to it.

I perfectly understand how hard it must be for you. It's the same for me, just roles reversed: My wife is orthodox. But for the very same reason you had to leave, I must stay: Catholicism is right. It is the truth. AL and anything else that might happen in this pontificate does not change this in the least.
I find this a big problem within christendom. So many claim protestantism is right, others catholicism and then others orthodoxy. Isn't Christ the truth? Nothing But Christ. There are plenty of Saints both within orthodox and catcholic Church. Or am I wrong?

Please, define for us the following:

Who is Christ?
The church?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline benjohn146

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #152 on: February 14, 2017, 04:17:43 PM »
Oh c'mon...what is that you struggle with?

Let me tell you.  I wish Catholicism was right.  I was Catholic all my life.  Played priest as a boy.  Became an altar boy.  Went to seminary.  When that didn't work out I got married to a woman who was nominally Catholic.  Convinced her just how important the faith was.  Went on pilgrimages to Rome, Guadalupe, Fatima, and Lourdes.  My decision to convert almost ended my marriage.  Even going on three years now being Orthodox and it's still raw.  It's awful not going to church together.  Our wedding anniversary falls on a Sunday this year.  She will go to her church and I will go to mine.  We don't have children of our own, but we have two nephews, Catholic, who are like sons to us, approaching their first communion and I can't be their sponsor.  You think I wouldn't love to be proved wrong, even now? "Swimming the Bosporus" has been painful and traumatic causing more problems than it solved.  But, no, in spite of everything I don't regret it, because no matter how much I might wish it to be otherwise, Orthodoxy is right.  Like it or not, accept it or not, it's the truth.  That's all there is to it.

I perfectly understand how hard it must be for you. It's the same for me, just roles reversed: My wife is orthodox. But for the very same reason you had to leave, I must stay: Catholicism is right. It is the truth. AL and anything else that might happen in this pontificate does not change this in the least.
I find this a big problem within christendom. So many claim protestantism is right, others catholicism and then others orthodoxy. Isn't Christ the truth? Nothing But Christ. There are plenty of Saints both within orthodox and catcholic Church. Or am I wrong?

Please, define for us the following:

Who is Christ?
The church?

The Church is the Body of Christ, but not Christ in essence. The Church is making us to know Who Is Christ, hence the importance of finding His True Church.

Does it help? If yes, maybe you can answer my previous question and than know Who Christ Is.
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Offline beebert

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #153 on: February 14, 2017, 04:20:50 PM »
Oh c'mon...what is that you struggle with?

Let me tell you.  I wish Catholicism was right.  I was Catholic all my life.  Played priest as a boy.  Became an altar boy.  Went to seminary.  When that didn't work out I got married to a woman who was nominally Catholic.  Convinced her just how important the faith was.  Went on pilgrimages to Rome, Guadalupe, Fatima, and Lourdes.  My decision to convert almost ended my marriage.  Even going on three years now being Orthodox and it's still raw.  It's awful not going to church together.  Our wedding anniversary falls on a Sunday this year.  She will go to her church and I will go to mine.  We don't have children of our own, but we have two nephews, Catholic, who are like sons to us, approaching their first communion and I can't be their sponsor.  You think I wouldn't love to be proved wrong, even now? "Swimming the Bosporus" has been painful and traumatic causing more problems than it solved.  But, no, in spite of everything I don't regret it, because no matter how much I might wish it to be otherwise, Orthodoxy is right.  Like it or not, accept it or not, it's the truth.  That's all there is to it.

I perfectly understand how hard it must be for you. It's the same for me, just roles reversed: My wife is orthodox. But for the very same reason you had to leave, I must stay: Catholicism is right. It is the truth. AL and anything else that might happen in this pontificate does not change this in the least.
I find this a big problem within christendom. So many claim protestantism is right, others catholicism and then others orthodoxy. Isn't Christ the truth? Nothing But Christ. There are plenty of Saints both within orthodox and catcholic Church. Or am I wrong?

Please, define for us the following:

Who is Christ?
The church?

The Church is the Body of Christ, but not Christ in essence. The Church is making us to know Who Is Christ, hence the importance of finding His True Church.

Does it help? If yes, maybe you can answer my previous question and than know Who Christ Is.
I know who Christ is, or what do you mean? Christ is the one who is shown to us in the gospels and in the church, but also within us in our life and around us in others life. Christ is God, he is everywhere present...
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline PJ26

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #154 on: February 14, 2017, 04:50:54 PM »
Returning to the original theme of Amoris Laetitia - and let me preface this by saying yes I know that this is not an official response to the dubia and yes I know that Cardinal Coccopalmerio didn't even bother to show up - the official website of radio vaticana has a story regarding a press conference which took place today introducing a new booklet by Cardinal Coccopalmerio, published by the Vatican's official publishing house, on the subject of Amoris Laetitia.

In the absence of the Cardinal, the booklet was presented by "Father Maurizio Gronchi, theologian, professor at Rome’s Pontifical Urbaniana University and consultant at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and veteran journalist Orazio La Rocca, expert in Vatican affairs."

"La Rocca highlighted the document’s admonition to men of the Church not to condemn anyone forever, but to consider a pastoral approach towards people who have contracted a civil marriage, who are divorced and remarried, or simply living together  but who are seeking to have their situation transformed into the full reality of marriage and family in conformity with the Gospel."

"'I had asked myself whether the doubts that had been raised regarding a possible violation of the Church’s doctrine could be founded; after reading this book it is clear that this is not so' he said."

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2017/02/14/amoris_laetitia_chap_8_explained_by_cardinal_coccopalmier/1292483

The article does not quote the booklet, however, Rorate Coeli provides the following excerpt:

"The divorced and remarried, de facto couples, those cohabiting, are certainly not models of unions in sync with Catholic Doctrine, but the Church cannot look the other way. Therefore, the sacraments of Reconciliation and of Communion must be given even to those so-called wounded families and to however many who, despite living in situations not in line with traditional matrimonial canons, express the sincere desire to approach the sacraments after an appropriate period of discernment... Yes, therefore, to admission to the sacraments for those who, despite living in irregular situations, sincerely ask for admission into the fullness of ecclesial life, it is a gesture of openness and profound mercy on the part of Mother Church, who does not leave behind any of her children, aware that absolute perfection is a precious gift, but one which cannot be reached by everyone."

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2017/02/important-francis-surrogate-to-answer.html



Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #155 on: February 14, 2017, 05:17:17 PM »
To Lepanto,

Oh well.  Maybe we'll talk more as things unfold, although I must say that I find your statement "AL and anything else that might happen in this pontificate does not change this in the least" interesting considering just how much might actually still happen and how that will then need to be squared with teachings the Catholic church considers infallible both as regards marriage and the papacy.  Anyway, agree to disagree then for the moment at least.  All the best to you and your wife. :)
Thank you. The same to you and your wife.
una cum famulo tuo Papa nostro et Antistite nostro et omnibus orthodoxis atque catholicæ et apostolicæ fidei cultoribus

Offline Ilyin

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #156 on: February 14, 2017, 05:45:13 PM »
"It's intuitively obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. In what world is a postpositivist even related to Zizek or phenomenology? The answer is - in no world.

I for one do not support the Council of Crete and am very critical of the Patriarchate of Constantinople and its occasional proclamations of a very...let's say a peculiar ecclesiology. Holding this position does not therefore demand that I sell my soul down the river as a political shill.

In short, you've done nothing more than prove my point, which is that you are not actually all that well-principled. You're just a naïve reactionary contrarian."

Ahh poor Mr Rozhek you need to calm down and listen a bit more to your Greek grandmother. All that Zizek has gone to your head. I'm sorry that I touched on a sore point and your rhizomes have become all mixed up, but never fear. God is merciful! You need not get your knickers in a twist. I recommend a year or two in a (Russian) monastery and absolutely no Zizek (or even Yannaras!). It will be very good for you. Please keep me informed of your progress.

Offline beebert

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #157 on: February 14, 2017, 06:00:38 PM »
Oh c'mon...what is that you struggle with?

Let me tell you.  I wish Catholicism was right.  I was Catholic all my life.  Played priest as a boy.  Became an altar boy.  Went to seminary.  When that didn't work out I got married to a woman who was nominally Catholic.  Convinced her just how important the faith was.  Went on pilgrimages to Rome, Guadalupe, Fatima, and Lourdes.  My decision to convert almost ended my marriage.  Even going on three years now being Orthodox and it's still raw.  It's awful not going to church together.  Our wedding anniversary falls on a Sunday this year.  She will go to her church and I will go to mine.  We don't have children of our own, but we have two nephews, Catholic, who are like sons to us, approaching their first communion and I can't be their sponsor.  You think I wouldn't love to be proved wrong, even now? "Swimming the Bosporus" has been painful and traumatic causing more problems than it solved.  But, no, in spite of everything I don't regret it, because no matter how much I might wish it to be otherwise, Orthodoxy is right.  Like it or not, accept it or not, it's the truth.  That's all there is to it.

I perfectly understand how hard it must be for you. It's the same for me, just roles reversed: My wife is orthodox. But for the very same reason you had to leave, I must stay: Catholicism is right. It is the truth. AL and anything else that might happen in this pontificate does not change this in the least.
I find this a big problem within christendom. So many claim protestantism is right, others catholicism and then others orthodoxy. Isn't Christ the truth? Nothing But Christ. There are plenty of Saints both within orthodox and catcholic Church. Or am I wrong?

Please, define for us the following:

Who is Christ?
The church?

The Church is the Body of Christ, but not Christ in essence. The Church is making us to know Who Is Christ, hence the importance of finding His True Church.

Does it help? If yes, maybe you can answer my previous question and than know Who Christ Is.
I know who Christ is, or what do you mean? Christ is the one who is shown to us in the gospels and in the church, but also within us in our life and around us in others life. Christ is God, he is everywhere present...
But there has been true faith and truth of Christ in orthodoxy, catholicism AND protestantism through history. The gregorian music in the catholic church for example, Johann Sebastian Bach in protestantism, the icons and the russian orthodox music in the orthodox church... All of these are proofs of some deep sense of true faith and truth in general. Of course the catholic church has had a lot of lies and bloody histories as well, like the inquisition etc. And protestantism as well. But still. Even if the orthodox church is the true church(which I believe) it doesn't mean that everything with protestantism and catholicism is false and lies. There are truths there as well and there are some true believers there too
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #158 on: February 14, 2017, 09:17:48 PM »
"It's intuitively obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. In what world is a postpositivist even related to Zizek or phenomenology? The answer is - in no world.

I for one do not support the Council of Crete and am very critical of the Patriarchate of Constantinople and its occasional proclamations of a very...let's say a peculiar ecclesiology. Holding this position does not therefore demand that I sell my soul down the river as a political shill.

In short, you've done nothing more than prove my point, which is that you are not actually all that well-principled. You're just a naïve reactionary contrarian."

Ahh poor Mr Rozhek you need to calm down and listen a bit more to your Greek grandmother. All that Zizek has gone to your head. I'm sorry that I touched on a sore point and your rhizomes have become all mixed up, but never fear. God is merciful! You need not get your knickers in a twist. I recommend a year or two in a (Russian) monastery and absolutely no Zizek (or even Yannaras!). It will be very good for you. Please keep me informed of your progress.

Try Popper, idiot.
I no longer forum here.

Offline tcolon90

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #159 on: February 14, 2017, 10:10:58 PM »
It seems there is some Schadenfreude .
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

I derive no pleasure from observing what the Roman Catholics are going through; I believe it is an inevitable consequence of their theological system (whether or not the current controversy is more or less serious than previous controversies). 

Roman Catholics believe that the Popes are heads of the Church on earth, that they have universal, immediate, ordinary, personal jurisdiction over all Catholics, that they are infallible when speaking ex cathedra, that even when not speaking so their teachings and rulings are to be given pious assent by the faithful, etc.  Yet, when a Pope teaches something, the people squirm according to their own predilections. 

So, for example, when Pope John Paul II authoritatively taught that women couldn't be ordained to the priesthood, those who supported the prohibition of women's ordination loved and supported the exercise of papal authority, while those who didn't went on about how it was not (clearly) an infallible definition so perhaps another Pope could rule differently, that it only spoke of priests and not deacons, etc. 

A similar thing is happening with AL.  Those who support the proposal to admit divorced and remarried people to Communion are happy to refer to AL as a magisterial document, highlight the Pope's authority and jurisdiction, begin to implement it, and punish those who do not.  Those who oppose the proposal claim that AL is not magisterial, is not a teaching, that Popes are not always infallible, that some should be opposed and formally corrected, etc.  Often, those who are ultramontane on one issue are left-of-Anglican on others. 

Roman Catholics have a love/hate relationship with the Christian East, and which is at play depends on whether our position is agreeable to them.  So, for example, the same crowd that invokes us as an example of liturgical conservatism/traditionalism in order to combat the myriad insanities found in RC churches on any given day will also self-servingly attack us on our "teaching" on divorce and remarriage (which even their own Cardinals do not really understand because they insist on interpreting it through their own theological system rather than learning ours) because it makes them feel good to believe they have not "sold out".   

I don't see "laetitia" in any of this.  What I see is a lot of confusion among people who are united by a belief in the Pope's authority but only put it into practice when the Pope agrees with them.  And then their apologists wish to impose their theological system on us as an element of apostolic faith by pointing to our alleged confusion, lack of authority, doctrinal deviations, etc. because we don't have that belief.

On the one hand, I am sad for them.  On the other hand, they seem to prefer their system as is and wish for us to submit to it: while I wish them well, we could never do such a thing because then we, like them, would be abandoning the Church of Christ and its divinely-revealed faith for a religion of mere man, by mere man, for mere man, as mere man.   

The RC doesn't allow remarried or divorced individuals to dine with Christ ? I need clarification. Is this before a confession and penance or even after? Is this seen as in unforgivable sin to them?

I think their position is that a divorced person who remarries without having had his previous marriage declared null by an ecclesiastical tribunal is still sacramentally married to the first spouse: hence, adultery.  And unrepentant adultery is what prevents such a person from receiving the sacraments.

Thanks. I don't get annulment though. It sounds like they're saying the marriage never existed, but how is that possible when the marriage was established by God? I understand sims get washed away, but to say that your love and experience with a person is null seems strange to me.
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Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #160 on: February 14, 2017, 10:43:31 PM »
It seems there is some Schadenfreude .
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

I derive no pleasure from observing what the Roman Catholics are going through; I believe it is an inevitable consequence of their theological system (whether or not the current controversy is more or less serious than previous controversies). 

Roman Catholics believe that the Popes are heads of the Church on earth, that they have universal, immediate, ordinary, personal jurisdiction over all Catholics, that they are infallible when speaking ex cathedra, that even when not speaking so their teachings and rulings are to be given pious assent by the faithful, etc.  Yet, when a Pope teaches something, the people squirm according to their own predilections. 

So, for example, when Pope John Paul II authoritatively taught that women couldn't be ordained to the priesthood, those who supported the prohibition of women's ordination loved and supported the exercise of papal authority, while those who didn't went on about how it was not (clearly) an infallible definition so perhaps another Pope could rule differently, that it only spoke of priests and not deacons, etc. 

A similar thing is happening with AL.  Those who support the proposal to admit divorced and remarried people to Communion are happy to refer to AL as a magisterial document, highlight the Pope's authority and jurisdiction, begin to implement it, and punish those who do not.  Those who oppose the proposal claim that AL is not magisterial, is not a teaching, that Popes are not always infallible, that some should be opposed and formally corrected, etc.  Often, those who are ultramontane on one issue are left-of-Anglican on others. 

Roman Catholics have a love/hate relationship with the Christian East, and which is at play depends on whether our position is agreeable to them.  So, for example, the same crowd that invokes us as an example of liturgical conservatism/traditionalism in order to combat the myriad insanities found in RC churches on any given day will also self-servingly attack us on our "teaching" on divorce and remarriage (which even their own Cardinals do not really understand because they insist on interpreting it through their own theological system rather than learning ours) because it makes them feel good to believe they have not "sold out".   

I don't see "laetitia" in any of this.  What I see is a lot of confusion among people who are united by a belief in the Pope's authority but only put it into practice when the Pope agrees with them.  And then their apologists wish to impose their theological system on us as an element of apostolic faith by pointing to our alleged confusion, lack of authority, doctrinal deviations, etc. because we don't have that belief.

On the one hand, I am sad for them.  On the other hand, they seem to prefer their system as is and wish for us to submit to it: while I wish them well, we could never do such a thing because then we, like them, would be abandoning the Church of Christ and its divinely-revealed faith for a religion of mere man, by mere man, for mere man, as mere man.   

The RC doesn't allow remarried or divorced individuals to dine with Christ ? I need clarification. Is this before a confession and penance or even after? Is this seen as in unforgivable sin to them?

I think their position is that a divorced person who remarries without having had his previous marriage declared null by an ecclesiastical tribunal is still sacramentally married to the first spouse: hence, adultery.  And unrepentant adultery is what prevents such a person from receiving the sacraments.

Thanks. I don't get annulment though. It sounds like they're saying the marriage never existed, but how is that possible when the marriage was established by God? I understand sims get washed away, but to say that your love and experience with a person is null seems strange to me.
Actually, annulment says due to some reason (which is listed in canon law), God actually didn't establish the marriage as a sacramental marriage, even though everyone may have thought it was at the time. Unfortunately establishing the marriage's nullity is a canonical process, with sworn testimony and evidence, and a ruling that can be appealed to Rome. It's also probably not supposed to be as freely granted as it is...though perhaps it's a subconscious admission that RC doctrine has not been correct on this point?

Sadly this will eventually affect my ex since I was married and divorced as a RC. I'll cooperate if she wants to go through, though I'm not sure it's annullable according to their laws. If not, I *technically* have to die to free her to marry with the RCc, though now AL might let her if she did marry again outside it to receive communion with a clear conscience. (She can't kill me though -- that's covered in the law as an impediment to her next marriage :P)
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Offline tcolon90

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #161 on: February 14, 2017, 11:49:09 PM »
It seems there is some Schadenfreude .
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

I derive no pleasure from observing what the Roman Catholics are going through; I believe it is an inevitable consequence of their theological system (whether or not the current controversy is more or less serious than previous controversies). 

Roman Catholics believe that the Popes are heads of the Church on earth, that they have universal, immediate, ordinary, personal jurisdiction over all Catholics, that they are infallible when speaking ex cathedra, that even when not speaking so their teachings and rulings are to be given pious assent by the faithful, etc.  Yet, when a Pope teaches something, the people squirm according to their own predilections. 

So, for example, when Pope John Paul II authoritatively taught that women couldn't be ordained to the priesthood, those who supported the prohibition of women's ordination loved and supported the exercise of papal authority, while those who didn't went on about how it was not (clearly) an infallible definition so perhaps another Pope could rule differently, that it only spoke of priests and not deacons, etc. 

A similar thing is happening with AL.  Those who support the proposal to admit divorced and remarried people to Communion are happy to refer to AL as a magisterial document, highlight the Pope's authority and jurisdiction, begin to implement it, and punish those who do not.  Those who oppose the proposal claim that AL is not magisterial, is not a teaching, that Popes are not always infallible, that some should be opposed and formally corrected, etc.  Often, those who are ultramontane on one issue are left-of-Anglican on others. 

Roman Catholics have a love/hate relationship with the Christian East, and which is at play depends on whether our position is agreeable to them.  So, for example, the same crowd that invokes us as an example of liturgical conservatism/traditionalism in order to combat the myriad insanities found in RC churches on any given day will also self-servingly attack us on our "teaching" on divorce and remarriage (which even their own Cardinals do not really understand because they insist on interpreting it through their own theological system rather than learning ours) because it makes them feel good to believe they have not "sold out".   

I don't see "laetitia" in any of this.  What I see is a lot of confusion among people who are united by a belief in the Pope's authority but only put it into practice when the Pope agrees with them.  And then their apologists wish to impose their theological system on us as an element of apostolic faith by pointing to our alleged confusion, lack of authority, doctrinal deviations, etc. because we don't have that belief.

On the one hand, I am sad for them.  On the other hand, they seem to prefer their system as is and wish for us to submit to it: while I wish them well, we could never do such a thing because then we, like them, would be abandoning the Church of Christ and its divinely-revealed faith for a religion of mere man, by mere man, for mere man, as mere man.   

The RC doesn't allow remarried or divorced individuals to dine with Christ ? I need clarification. Is this before a confession and penance or even after? Is this seen as in unforgivable sin to them?

I think their position is that a divorced person who remarries without having had his previous marriage declared null by an ecclesiastical tribunal is still sacramentally married to the first spouse: hence, adultery.  And unrepentant adultery is what prevents such a person from receiving the sacraments.

Thanks. I don't get annulment though. It sounds like they're saying the marriage never existed, but how is that possible when the marriage was established by God? I understand sims get washed away, but to say that your love and experience with a person is null seems strange to me.
Actually, annulment says due to some reason (which is listed in canon law), God actually didn't establish the marriage as a sacramental marriage, even though everyone may have thought it was at the time. Unfortunately establishing the marriage's nullity is a canonical process, with sworn testimony and evidence, and a ruling that can be appealed to Rome. It's also probably not supposed to be as freely granted as it is...though perhaps it's a subconscious admission that RC doctrine has not been correct on this point?

Sadly this will eventually affect my ex since I was married and divorced as a RC. I'll cooperate if she wants to go through, though I'm not sure it's annullable according to their laws. If not, I *technically* have to die to free her to marry with the RCc, though now AL might let her if she did marry again outside it to receive communion with a clear conscience. (She can't kill me though -- that's covered in the law as an impediment to her next marriage :P)

Sounds like a lot of legal mumbo jumbo made up to get around a bad policy. This kind of loophole shenanigans seems common the the RCc at least from my perspective. Similar to the wierd antipope stuff to explain away abuses of infallibility. He. Ant be infallible if he was never a pope huh?
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #162 on: February 15, 2017, 12:55:48 AM »
Are you saying that the Papacy of a Pope can be annulled like marriage?  There's a loophole for ya!
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #163 on: February 15, 2017, 02:00:21 AM »
Are you saying that the Papacy of a Pope can be annulled like marriage?  There's a loophole for ya!
Don't need no loopholes  ;D
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #164 on: February 15, 2017, 03:26:26 AM »
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #165 on: February 15, 2017, 03:47:26 AM »
Are you saying that the Papacy of a Pope can be annulled like marriage?  There's a loophole for ya!

As I understand it, yes, we just discern our way with our conscience.  The pope has 'developed' himself out of the equation.  I personally do still stick by the Gospel, but I am a bit old-fashioned, rigid even, there.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 03:48:35 AM by christiane777 »
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #166 on: February 15, 2017, 04:53:30 AM »
The four bishops can voice their dubia till the cows come home.
The pope can simply ignore it, if he chooses. He is the vicar of Christ and can do as he pleases.
They can play rebellion, but will pay the bill.
That's the way it is.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 04:56:35 AM by Lepanto »
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #168 on: February 15, 2017, 03:36:37 PM »
The four bishops can voice their dubia till the cows come home.
The pope can simply ignore it, if he chooses. He is the vicar of Christ and can do as he pleases.
They can play rebellion, but will pay the bill.
That's the way it is.

Thank God for Orthodoxy! :)
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #169 on: February 15, 2017, 07:12:58 PM »
Quote
Article: "On the Formal Correction of Pope Francis" - See more at: http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2017/02/article-on-formal-correction-of-pope.html#more

It is more than four months since the dubia concerning the teaching of the apostolic exhortation Amoris Laetitia were sent to Pope Francis by Cardinals Brandmüller, Burke, Caffarra and Meisner. As is well known, the dubia requested the Pope to dispel doubts about the content of Amoris Laetitia by authoritatively confirming that the document did not make five claims that contradicted Catholic tradition and divine revelation. After these dubia were made public, Cardinal Burke stated that 'if there is no response to these questions, then I would say that it would be a question of taking a formal act of correction of a serious error.' - See more at: http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2017/02/article-on-formal-correction-of-pope.html#more

This is one long article.  I just scanned through - not really wanting to get into the AL weeds as I don't really care about the details.  I know enough to believe the Pope is in error, in violation of standing doctrine, teaching.  That suffices for me.  In any event, as I understand it,  the Cardinals can issue a formal correction without a response from the Pope to the dubia.  Now, given the current climate my guess is this is unlikely but it is interesting to think about.  Kind of a Plan B.  Also I am a little careful with Rorate Caeli - they take traditionalism to the next level - think ether.  However, more often than not, they prove to be right.  So I take them seriously - good track record anyway so far on our buddy Francis.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 07:17:45 PM by christiane777 »
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #170 on: February 15, 2017, 07:28:15 PM »
The four bishops can voice their dubia till the cows come home.
The pope can simply ignore it, if he chooses. He is the vicar of Christ and can do as he pleases.
They can play rebellion, but will pay the bill.
That's the way it is.

This se ems to be core problem. He can play rebellion with no consequences but when those below him have legitimate  concerns they risk deposition. Sometimes doing as you please is not right no matter who you are.

As far as the AL goes, it's neither Orthodox nor Catholic. If it's precepts get adopted i wouldn't be surprised. Wouldn't be the first time Rome  changed its doctrines, especially on marriage.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 07:28:56 PM by tcolon90 »
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #171 on: February 15, 2017, 08:45:27 PM »
The four bishops can voice their dubia till the cows come home.
The pope can simply ignore it, if he chooses. He is the vicar of Christ and can do as he pleases.
They can play rebellion, but will pay the bill.
That's the way it is.

Thank God for Orthodoxy! :)

lol indeed.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 08:47:22 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #172 on: February 15, 2017, 09:00:06 PM »
The four bishops can voice their dubia till the cows come home.
The pope can simply ignore it, if he chooses. He is the vicar of Christ and can do as he pleases.
They can play rebellion, but will pay the bill.
That's the way it is.

I don't think other Catholics in this thread agree with you
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #173 on: February 16, 2017, 03:45:07 AM »
The four bishops can voice their dubia till the cows come home.
The pope can simply ignore it, if he chooses. He is the vicar of Christ and can do as he pleases.
They can play rebellion, but will pay the bill.
That's the way it is.

I don't think other Catholics in this thread agree with you
I do not know. Let me try to be more explicit:
Leaning towards tradition, you would probably call me a trad catholic.
In my opinion, as stated previously, AL is unnecessary and irrelevant - you could also say dangerous.
The best thing ordinary Catholics and clergy can do imho is fully ignore it. Period.
The four bishops are right and they are heroes - little hyperbole there.
BUT: It will achieve nothing. It is time that certain trad circles wake up from day-dreaming and realize Francis will not withdraw AL. Seriously: Do they expect him to say: "I overlooked something, sorry, my bad."? Face reality. He is in charge and can do as he pleases. I do not say he should.
Interesting tangent: The very same conservative circles vehemently demanding acceptance of papal primacy in the past (e.g. realizing Summorum Pontificum) are complaining loudest now that a pope really is emphasizing his authority. This is bordering opportunism.
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #174 on: February 16, 2017, 04:16:42 AM »
Deleted.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 04:17:03 AM by Indocern »

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #175 on: February 16, 2017, 04:21:06 AM »
The four bishops can voice their dubia till the cows come home.
The pope can simply ignore it, if he chooses. He is the vicar of Christ and can do as he pleases.
They can play rebellion, but will pay the bill.
That's the way it is.

I don't think other Catholics in this thread agree with you
I do not know. Let me try to be more explicit:
Leaning towards tradition, you would probably call me a trad catholic.
In my opinion, as stated previously, AL is unnecessary and irrelevant - you could also say dangerous.
The best thing ordinary Catholics and clergy can do imho is fully ignore it. Period.
The four bishops are right and they are heroes - little hyperbole there.

BUT: It will achieve nothing. It is time that certain trad circles wake up from day-dreaming and realize Francis will not withdraw AL. Seriously: Do they expect him to say: "I overlooked something, sorry, my bad."? Face reality. He is in charge and can do as he pleases. I do not say he should.
Interesting tangent: The very same conservative circles vehemently demanding acceptance of papal primacy in the past (e.g. realizing Summorum Pontificum) are complaining loudest now that a pope really is emphasizing his authority. This is bordering opportunism.

 ??? Doesn't this statement contradict the other? Or does the unchanging tradition of the Church, change yet again?
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #176 on: February 16, 2017, 04:41:12 AM »
Exactly where is the contradiction?
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #177 on: February 16, 2017, 05:21:49 AM »
Exactly where is the contradiction?

Mixed individuals = different opinions
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 05:22:16 AM by WPM »

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #178 on: February 16, 2017, 05:35:41 AM »
I played a bit advocatus diaboli which may be what confused xOrthodox4Christx.
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Offline PJ26

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #179 on: February 16, 2017, 09:11:19 AM »
Again, to reiterate, this is what Catholicism believes to be absolutely, infallibly true regarding the papacy and how Catholics must adhere to it:

"Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other Church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman Pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world." - Pastor Aeternus

"Religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will." - Lumen Gentium

Yet, keeping that in mind, believing it as you are required to do if you want to be Catholic, you say that the pope's most recent Apostolic Exhortation is unnecessary, irrelevant and dangerous.  That the Cardinals opposing him are to some degree heroes.  And advocating that the average Catholic just ignore him.

Can you explain that contradiction?