Author Topic: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion  (Read 1310 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,078
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Quote
My Ukrainian Catholic faith has been a significant cornerstone in the life of me and my family, but I had been pulling away from my faith over the past few years, mostly out of fear I would not feel welcome expressing my authentic self.

I am a transgender woman. Weeks before I came out last year to the rest of the world, I met the bishop — at his invitation — for another in a long line of very important conversations. I later talked to our priest. From my personal journal dated Jan. 29, 2014, this is how part of that conversation went.

“Will we still be welcome to practise our faith as we always have in the church?” I asked...

http://edmontonjournal.com/news/politics/priest-bishop-supportive-of-me-as-transgender-woman-opinion

Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline LizaSymonenko

  • Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
  • Global Moderator
  • Hoplitarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,542
    • St.Mary the Protectress Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Re: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2017, 06:15:55 PM »

From the article:
"In the Ukrainian church, the funeral is very gender-specific. When I asked how I will be referred to during my burial, I was told: “Well, after March 21, you will be Marni and we will call you a she.”

...that was the bishop's reply.  Really?!?  What about his/her baptismal name?  When I go up for Holy Communion, I am not referred to as Liz, or Liza, or anything other than "Elizabeth".

How is he condoning this? 

....and....I love that she doesn't mention either priest or bishop by name, therefore, how do we know that any priest or bishop actually stated what she claims they did?
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline Jackson02

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 203
  • Lord have mercy on me a sinner
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOC-A
Re: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2017, 06:25:55 PM »
Lord have mercy.
IC XC
NI KA

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,321
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic Church
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2017, 06:45:48 PM »
These are Ukrainian Catholics, I hope.
This profile is defunct as of 11/8/2017. I created it before Orthodoxy, and have used it after Orthodoxy.

I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

I will likely lurk on this forum under a different name.

Offline LizaSymonenko

  • Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
  • Global Moderator
  • Hoplitarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,542
    • St.Mary the Protectress Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Re: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2017, 06:49:08 PM »
These are Ukrainian Catholics, I hope.

I believe so...although I wish they were nothing Ukrainian.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline Deacon Lance

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,726
  • Faith: Byzantine Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Re: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2017, 09:16:27 PM »
What should be the response?  Once the operation is done it is done.  Excommunication till death?  I believe the canons call for excommunication for three years for self-castration.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline RaphaCam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,535
  • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
    • Em Espírito e em Verdade
  • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2017, 09:33:11 PM »
What should be the response?  Once the operation is done it is done.  Excommunication till death?  I believe the canons call for excommunication for three years for self-castration.
Origen wasn't called Origena by the Church...
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese)

Offline Deacon Lance

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,726
  • Faith: Byzantine Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Re: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2017, 09:40:08 PM »
What should be the response?  Once the operation is done it is done.  Excommunication till death?  I believe the canons call for excommunication for three years for self-castration.
Origen wasn't called Origena by the Church...
He also didn't have surgery, dress like a woman and have the government redo his birth certificate and driver license.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline IXOYE

  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,059
Re: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2017, 09:40:22 PM »
Lord, have mercy!

Offline Deacon Lance

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,726
  • Faith: Byzantine Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Re: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2017, 09:44:08 PM »
Don't misunderstand I am not saying we encourage people to have sex changes but once they do it, how do we respond?  Tell them they aren't welcme? 
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline Jackson02

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 203
  • Lord have mercy on me a sinner
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOC-A
Re: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2017, 09:45:09 PM »
What should be the response?  Once the operation is done it is done.  Excommunication till death?  I believe the canons call for excommunication for three years for self-castration.
simply ignore them they don't deserve attention on this matter.
IC XC
NI KA

Offline Deacon Lance

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,726
  • Faith: Byzantine Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Re: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2017, 09:47:42 PM »
What should be the response?  Once the operation is done it is done.  Excommunication till death?  I believe the canons call for excommunication for three years for self-castration.
simply ignore them they don't deserve attention on this matter.
That is an easy non-answer.  They are coming to Church, requesting ministry, sacraments, etc.  How do you respond?  Is this an unforgivable sin?
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline RaphaCam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,535
  • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
    • Em Espírito e em Verdade
  • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2017, 09:54:36 PM »
That is an easy non-answer.  They are coming to Church, requesting ministry, sacraments, etc.  How do you respond?  Is this an unforgivable sin?
No, but they should repent, even if they can't reverse it all. Like in this Roman Catholic story you may've heard of a couple who had divorced a previous marriage before marrying each other, and, upon retaking the faith, started living as brother and sister.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese)

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,078
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2017, 10:10:01 PM »
That is an easy non-answer.  They are coming to Church, requesting ministry, sacraments, etc.  How do you respond?  Is this an unforgivable sin?
No, but they should repent, even if they can't reverse it all. Like in this Roman Catholic story you may've heard of a couple who had divorced a previous marriage before marrying each other, and, upon retaking the faith, started living as brother and sister.

What would repentance look like in a situation like that in the OP?
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,321
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic Church
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2017, 10:10:47 PM »
What should be the response?  Once the operation is done it is done.  Excommunication till death?  I believe the canons call for excommunication for three years for self-castration.

Repent and excommunication. The Church's authority is absolute, snowflakes can whine about it.

Don't misunderstand I am not saying we encourage people to have sex changes but once they do it, how do we respond?  Tell them they aren't welcme? 

That's exactly what you do. You'll never please everybody, so quit trying to.
This profile is defunct as of 11/8/2017. I created it before Orthodoxy, and have used it after Orthodoxy.

I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

I will likely lurk on this forum under a different name.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,078
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2017, 10:12:30 PM »
What should be the response?  Once the operation is done it is done.  Excommunication till death?  I believe the canons call for excommunication for three years for self-castration.

Repent and excommunication. The Church's authority is absolute, snowflakes can whine about it.

What would repentance look like in a situation like that in the OP?

Quote
Don't misunderstand I am not saying we encourage people to have sex changes but once they do it, how do we respond?  Tell them they aren't welcme? 

That's exactly what you do. You'll never please everybody, so quit trying to.

"Jesus Christ died for Greek people's sins!"
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,321
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic Church
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2017, 10:16:38 PM »
What should be the response?  Once the operation is done it is done.  Excommunication till death?  I believe the canons call for excommunication for three years for self-castration.

Repent and excommunication. The Church's authority is absolute, snowflakes can whine about it.

What would repentance look like in a situation like that in the OP?

Quote
Don't misunderstand I am not saying we encourage people to have sex changes but once they do it, how do we respond?  Tell them they aren't welcme? 

That's exactly what you do. You'll never please everybody, so quit trying to.

"Jesus Christ died for Greek people's sins!"

Loving someone is one thing, expecting they will all conform, obey and believe the same things is another. It's about being realistic.
This profile is defunct as of 11/8/2017. I created it before Orthodoxy, and have used it after Orthodoxy.

I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

I will likely lurk on this forum under a different name.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,078
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2017, 10:19:39 PM »
What should be the response?  Once the operation is done it is done.  Excommunication till death?  I believe the canons call for excommunication for three years for self-castration.

Repent and excommunication. The Church's authority is absolute, snowflakes can whine about it.

What would repentance look like in a situation like that in the OP?

Quote
Don't misunderstand I am not saying we encourage people to have sex changes but once they do it, how do we respond?  Tell them they aren't welcme? 

That's exactly what you do. You'll never please everybody, so quit trying to.

"Jesus Christ died for Greek people's sins!"

Loving someone is one thing, expecting they will all conform, obey and believe the same things is another. It's about being realistic.

You still haven't answered the question. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline RaphaCam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,535
  • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
    • Em Espírito e em Verdade
  • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2017, 10:28:17 PM »
What would repentance look like in a situation like that in the OP?
No idea about "looks", but using the original name and, if financially and medically possible, regressing feminilisation, would be a good start.

Resultado de imagem para ex transsexual
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese)

Offline Jackson02

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 203
  • Lord have mercy on me a sinner
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOC-A
Re: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2017, 10:49:43 PM »
Perhaps they should just depose them, maybe their ideas would go away then.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 10:49:58 PM by Jackson02 »
IC XC
NI KA

Offline Faithseeker

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 34
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2017, 11:10:03 PM »
I have a number of transgender friends. While I don't agree with their belief that they were assigned a different gender than the gender they feel they are inside, I respect them. God does not make mistakes,  He creates male and female.

The theological question here - how should the church react when an individual identifies as transgender - note that not all have gone through gender reassignment surgery. They most likely take hormones to "counteract" the gender to which they were born.

I know of other "churches" who accept transgender individuals into their community but ban them from any religious practices - such as Mormons.  No transgender male can be given the priesthood or attain "good standing" to attend the temple.

How should we see individuals who identify as transgender?  Some are intersex, born with genitalia of both sexes. These individuals would not be banned because it was an in utero circumstance.

This of course is obviously quite different from individuals who choose the step of identification as transgender.

Excommunicated? Banned from the Holy Mysteries  (sacraments)?

I believe that if an individual is Orthodox or raised in a traditional RC  environment,  they would,  if still associated with these communities know God does not make mistakes and would learn to balance their feelings in like manner,  just as those who identify as gay/lesbian, who may choose to follow church teachings or ignore them.

I would think this is more of an issue in relation to an individual who is a convert to the church post- gender identification.

"Love the sinner, hate the sin?" Perhaps. This would mean to embrace the individual,  not excommunicate. In regards to Baptism and Chrismation this may be the way to go. In remain to the Holy Eucharist, perhaps likewise.  A transgender male (with or without gender reassignment surgery), ordained?  I would think no - then again this response of no,  also applies to other individuals for other reasons.  Marriage?  No. Holy Unction and burial?  Sticky issue - I don't know.

Offline FatherGiryus

  • Don't Ask
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,189
Re: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2017, 01:51:31 AM »
It seems to me that before we answer the question of what to do, we ought to first ask what is going on with people who do these kinds of things.
You can't find wisdom in the mirror.

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,188
  • Unbreakable! He's alive, dammit! It's a MIRACLE!
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Candle-lighting Cross Kisser
Re: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2017, 01:54:56 AM »
These are Ukrainian Catholics, I hope.

I believe so...although I wish they were nothing Ukrainian.

If some other ethnicity, then it'd be ok?
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,386
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2017, 02:10:04 AM »
A lot of people are talking as tho she's transsexual. She's transgender, which means she lives as the opposite gender, not that she's actually changing sex. As such, it's a much simpler case. If she's really repentant (and in this story it sounds as tho she's not repentant at all), then she can just go back to dressing in her old clothes and using her old name.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline LizaSymonenko

  • Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
  • Global Moderator
  • Hoplitarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,542
    • St.Mary the Protectress Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Re: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2017, 12:13:27 PM »
These are Ukrainian Catholics, I hope.

I believe so...although I wish they were nothing Ukrainian.

If some other ethnicity, then it'd be ok?

No...it would never be okay. 
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline LizaSymonenko

  • Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
  • Global Moderator
  • Hoplitarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,542
    • St.Mary the Protectress Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Re: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2017, 12:15:12 PM »
A lot of people are talking as tho she's transsexual. She's transgender, which means she lives as the opposite gender, not that she's actually changing sex. As such, it's a much simpler case. If she's really repentant (and in this story it sounds as tho she's not repentant at all), then she can just go back to dressing in her old clothes and using her old name.

This would be the best solution.

We all sin, we need to repent.

A sinner ought to be led back to the correct path....not embraced in their sinful nature and told everything is okay.

If true, the clergy are not doing this woman any favors.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline IreneOlinyk

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 501
Re: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2017, 05:33:06 PM »
The newspaper article was published in 2015.  I do not understand why it is being discussed here two years after the fact.

Also the article was an "Opinion" piece written by Marni Panas.   Who knows what the bishop really.  I doubt the meeting was recorded.  I believe the original issue in 2015 was the couple's son participating in the Catholic First Communion ceremonies.  Probably the young boy goes to a local Catholic school and like the rest of his class wanted to participate with his fellow students. 
I think we should be praying for the son today since this is all old news.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,078
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2017, 05:47:25 PM »
The newspaper article was published in 2015.  I do not understand why it is being discussed here two years after the fact.

It only popped up in my FB feed in the fourth week of June 2017.
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Antonious Nikolas

  • Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,234
  • Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Oriental Orthodox Church
Re: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2017, 06:11:45 PM »
If this story is accurate as reported, I think this bishop has moved beyond the realm of compassionate and pastoral care for a wounded soul to endorsing the sin of someone who sees no reason to repent.  It should be okay to be someone grappling with the sins this person is grappling with and to still expect to be ministered to in some sense by a merciful Church, but not to be an unrepentant sinner who claims the Church endorses their sin.  If I've murdered and repented, yes, I can call myself a member of the Church and even receive its Mysteries.  But if I'm Buffalo Bill and I'm actively killing and claiming the Church wants it to put the lotion on its skin, or the Church will give it the hose again, that's a problem.  Before anyone loses their you-know-what, I'm only comparing this person's sin to murder in the same sense that I'd compare my own sins to the same: it's all sin.  None of it is okay, and none of it should be endorsed, but none of it should mean we're written off entirely and not called back to repentance either.  Lord, have mercy.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline scamandrius

  • A man of many, many turns
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,195
  • Faith: Greek Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: DOWAMA of AANA
Re: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2017, 11:11:31 AM »

From the article:
"In the Ukrainian church, the funeral is very gender-specific. When I asked how I will be referred to during my burial, I was told: “Well, after March 21, you will be Marni and we will call you a she.”

...that was the bishop's reply.  Really?!?  What about his/her baptismal name?  When I go up for Holy Communion, I am not referred to as Liz, or Liza, or anything other than "Elizabeth".

How is he condoning this

....and....I love that she doesn't mention either priest or bishop by name, therefore, how do we know that any priest or bishop actually stated what she claims they did?

In pieces like this, we are often told that the person has received the support, i.e. Endorsement of his/her respective, bishop, priest, etc., but that clergyman is never mentioned by name which always leaves me suspect about whether that is really the case. It is no different when JamesRottnek constantly says he knows many clergy and hierarchy of the Orthodox church who want to bless gay marriages and condone homosexual acts, but never in my 11 years on this forum has he ever named one, which, again, leaves me suspect as to how far the support for such issues regarding sexuality really goes or whether it is a just a lie. 
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

Offline ZealousZeal

  • Cosmic Knowledge Fish
  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,980
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2017, 11:50:42 AM »
It seems to me that before we answer the question of what to do, we ought to first ask what is going on with people who do these kinds of things.

But Father, it's so much easier "to ignore them". As Christ taught us: "Give to all who ask of you, unless they don't deserve attention on a certain matter, in which case do not give them that." #blessed
You want your belt to buckle, not your chair.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,078
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2017, 12:09:47 PM »
It seems to me that before we answer the question of what to do, we ought to first ask what is going on with people who do these kinds of things.

But Father, it's so much easier "to ignore them". As Christ taught us: "Give to all who ask of you, unless they don't deserve attention on a certain matter, in which case do not give them that." #blessed

"I came that they might die, and that they might die abundantly."
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline augustin717

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,429
  • Faith: Higher Criticism
  • Jurisdiction: Dutch
Re: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2017, 12:14:37 PM »

From the article:
"In the Ukrainian church, the funeral is very gender-specific. When I asked how I will be referred to during my burial, I was told: “Well, after March 21, you will be Marni and we will call you a she.”

...that was the bishop's reply.  Really?!?  What about his/her baptismal name?  When I go up for Holy Communion, I am not referred to as Liz, or Liza, or anything other than "Elizabeth".

How is he condoning this

....and....I love that she doesn't mention either priest or bishop by name, therefore, how do we know that any priest or bishop actually stated what she claims they did?

In pieces like this, we are often told that the person has received the support, i.e. Endorsement of his/her respective, bishop, priest, etc., but that clergyman is never mentioned by name which always leaves me suspect about whether that is really the case. It is no different when JamesRottnek constantly says he knows many clergy and hierarchy of the Orthodox church who want to bless gay marriages and condone homosexual acts, but never in my 11 years on this forum has he ever named one, which, again, leaves me suspect as to how far the support for such issues regarding sexuality really goes or whether it is a just a lie.
some don't drop names just because many writing here are of the "write your bishop" types. It doesn't mean sympathetic clergy don't exist .
She hears, upon that water without sound,
A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine
Is not the porch of spirits lingering.
It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.”
We live in an old chaos of the sun,
Or old dependency of day and night,
Or island solitude, unsponsored, free,
Of that wide water, inescapable.

Offline scamandrius

  • A man of many, many turns
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,195
  • Faith: Greek Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: DOWAMA of AANA
Re: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion
« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2017, 01:27:39 PM »

From the article:
"In the Ukrainian church, the funeral is very gender-specific. When I asked how I will be referred to during my burial, I was told: “Well, after March 21, you will be Marni and we will call you a she.”

...that was the bishop's reply.  Really?!?  What about his/her baptismal name?  When I go up for Holy Communion, I am not referred to as Liz, or Liza, or anything other than "Elizabeth".

How is he condoning this

....and....I love that she doesn't mention either priest or bishop by name, therefore, how do we know that any priest or bishop actually stated what she claims they did?

In pieces like this, we are often told that the person has received the support, i.e. Endorsement of his/her respective, bishop, priest, etc., but that clergyman is never mentioned by name which always leaves me suspect about whether that is really the case. It is no different when JamesRottnek constantly says he knows many clergy and hierarchy of the Orthodox church who want to bless gay marriages and condone homosexual acts, but never in my 11 years on this forum has he ever named one, which, again, leaves me suspect as to how far the support for such issues regarding sexuality really goes or whether it is a just a lie.
some don't drop names just because many writing here are of the "write your bishop" types. It doesn't mean sympathetic clergy don't exist .

Maybe they do, but when someone--anyone--invokes bishops or priests anonymously to support their positions on such issues as if that then carries authority, best to name the individuals.  Because all we have is your word and I don't trust many people on this vorum any further than I can throw 'em. 

I have also noticed over the course of my life when a statement begins along the lines of "some say" or "there is a belief" or "a bishop once said" that those are all code for "I think" or "I believe."
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

Offline FatherGiryus

  • Don't Ask
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,189
Re: Priest, bishop supportive of me as transgender woman: Opinion
« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2017, 12:17:40 AM »
It seems to me that before we answer the question of what to do, we ought to first ask what is going on with people who do these kinds of things.

But Father, it's so much easier "to ignore them". As Christ taught us: "Give to all who ask of you, unless they don't deserve attention on a certain matter, in which case do not give them that." #blessed

Well, there are a few issues.  The first is statistical: these incidents are quite rare.  Most of us clergy have not had to deal with this problem, and most never will.  Given that I am moving from a major metropolitan area to 'the sticks,' it is highly unlikely that I ever will.

But, the bigger issue that I see is that we here in The Church don't really understand how The Church has dealt with these things.  I am saying that gender dysphoria is nothing 'modern.'  If it is, then we ought to examine it in a completely different way.  But, if it is a problem that is old, then we would do well to understand how it was seen.

I use the past tense because most folks these days tend to see these issues as 'psychology.'  They are psychological matters, which then must either be assigned to the categories of 'normal' or 'abnormal.'  That's also tricky, because the major delineation between normal and abnormal in psychology is occurrence, hence the 'statistical' part of the DSM.

But, there's another problem, and that is how we can fit trans-whatever into the category of normal when it is both rare and problematic for those going through it.  There are no stories about people going through this experience who found it pleasant.  It is a form of suffering, even when one has 'supportive' and non-judgmental relative and friends.

Another problem is that it is 'fluid.'  Roughly 50% of those who go through reassignment surgery end up wanting it reversed, just as there are statistically more people who once identified as 'gay' who know longer do so.

But, the real core issue is how we answer this question: what causes this to happen with some people?

Perhaps some of you here can answer what the scientific answer is.  I have not seen any scientific explanation that is universally accepted, though I am not a professional in this area and there may very well be.

We can't really help anyone unless we know what is wrong with them.

You can't find wisdom in the mirror.