Author Topic: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith  (Read 5066 times)

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Offline petros22

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Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« on: January 28, 2017, 06:05:09 PM »
Okay so some of you may remember me, I posted on here a little last Spring asking about Orthodox Easter liturgies. I am a Catholic convert from Anglicanism.

Over the last few months, I have really found my faith being tested following all the controversy about Amoris Laetitia. Papal infallibility has always been a pretty hard sell for me and as far as I can see this document is clearly against the long standing teachings of the church. That means infallibility must be wrong, surely? I've been driving myself mad trying to work this one out logically, but this (along with Pope Francis constant attacks on traditionalist and conservative attitudes and people) is really making me wonder how a man who talks like this can really be the Vicar of Christ. If there even is such a position. And then there is the amount of division this is causing, it seems the Roman church is tearing itself in two.

I just really need to get a non-Catholic take on this to try to get some perspective. Had anyone here had any thoughts on AL and the implications it will have? I'd appreciate any points of view or words of wisdom.
Almighty God, unto whom all hearts be open, all desires known, and from whom no secretes are hid: cleanse the thoughts of our hearts by the inspiration of thy holy spirit, that we may perfectly love thee, and worthily magnify thy holy name: through Christ our Lord. Amen.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2017, 06:14:29 PM »
I think Amoris Laetitia simply puts into words what Roman practice has been for a while. I really am not surprised, because there are just so many contradictions in Roman doctrine and teaching.
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Online rakovsky

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2017, 06:16:08 PM »
The RC teaching is that infallible statements are those by the Ecumenical Councils or those made by the Pope "ex cathedra" and accepted by the Church. Do either apply to the Amoris. Laetitia?

EOs reject Papal infallibility, and so even did Popes commonly up to maybe the 19th-20th c. One 19th-20th c. Pope rejected it, because he felt it was actually a huge noncanonical constraint on him. It meant that if he or his predecessor personally made some theological statement on behalf of and accepted by the church, he could NEVER EVER contradict it. Something like that is better left to Councils, if at all.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2017, 06:28:55 PM »
The RC teaching is that infallible statements are those by the Ecumenical Councils or those made by the Pope "ex cathedra" and accepted by the Church. Do either apply to the Amoris. Laetitia?

EOs reject Papal infallibility, and so even did Popes commonly up to maybe the 19th-20th c. One 19th-20th c. Pope rejected it, because he felt it was actually a huge noncanonical constraint on him. It meant that if he or his predecessor personally made some theological statement on behalf of and accepted by the church, he could NEVER EVER contradict it. Something like that is better left to Councils, if at all.

Ah, yes. Papal Infallibility was rejected by the Orthodox Church, and the Roman Catholic Church itself rejected the idea until Pope Pius IX forced it through the council. 1/3rd of the Vatican I fathers didn't accept the idea of infallibility, but Pope Pius IX basically rigged the number of ultramontane Bishops to support him and he forcibly pushed it through the council. Papal infallibility is a tough pill for me to swallow because I don't know which Papal statements to take seriously and which to reject. Are Jews reprobate? Most Popes say yes, some Popes say no. Is Purgatory a literal fire? Popes disagree. Is the liturgy irreformable? Popes disagree. That's why I cannot accept the idea until there is a good explanation that fits with me. Even if there was a good explanation, there's no guarantee I would join Rome though. It's still in a mess, even if they had some explanation.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2017, 06:29:05 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”- St. Ambrose of Milan

"Now one cannot be a half-hearted Christian, but only entirely or not at all." -Fr. Seraphim Rose

"He who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen." (1 John 4:20)

Offline benjohn146

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2017, 05:11:51 PM »
My friend, just have a look at the history of the Church and you will see, historically, that the Orthodox Church is Christ's true Church. History will show you the root of the RCC's heresies when they left the Faith and the Church of Christ.

I can suggest to read "The Orthodox Church" by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware which is very enlightening in my opinion. I was RC too and that book helped me a lot to see clearer with all the falsehood and the distortion taught by Rome.

Praying that you may find the Lord in your journey.
St Makarios, pray for us.

Online rakovsky

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2017, 06:54:12 PM »
My friend, just have a look at the history of the Church and you will see, historically, that the Orthodox Church is Christ's true Church. History will show you the root of the RCC's heresies when they left the Faith and the Church of Christ.

I can suggest to read "The Orthodox Church" by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware which is very enlightening in my opinion. I was RC too and that book helped me a lot to see clearer with all the falsehood and the distortion taught by Rome.

Praying that you may find the Lord in your journey.
+1
So far as the various divisions and schisms in the Church can be seen over the years, the EO church has been orthodox.

Offline PJ26

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2017, 06:56:27 PM »
Hi petros,

Were you looking for a "non-Catholic take" on the issue of infallibility?  Any non-Catholic by definition would reject that teaching.  If there's a non-Catholic out there who believes in papal infallibility, they should convert to Catholicism.  Something to prayerfully keep in mind if you yourself are struggling with that particular teaching is that the First Vatican Council anathematizes any Catholic who rejects it.  As such I'm not sure how any Catholic who takes their faith seriously can deny that teaching and still call themselves Catholic or believe that Catholicism is the true church.

As for Amoris Laetitia - it is not an infallible document strictly speaking, but it is a magisterial document and must be read within the context of what the Catholic church teaches about the papacy.  Many traditionalists and conservatives, led by the likes of Cardinal Burke, are trying to convince themselves and others that it is not so because of the implications that necessarily follow.  However, when one recalls that Pope Francis himself said that his interviews were part of his official papal magisterium and had the Vatican's printing office print them as such, it's frankly absurd to suggest that an apostolic exhortation written at the conclusion of two church synods is somehow not magisterial.

That said remember what Catholicism teaches about the papacy which from a Catholic perspective is infallible.  The two most recent (supposedly) ecumenical councils - Vaticans I and II - state the following:

"Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other Church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman Pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world." - Pastor Aeternus

"Religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will." - Lumen Gentium

The issue of divorce, remarriage, and communion is certainly one of faith, morals, and discipline, and Amoris Laetitia, while not ex cathedra, requires the reverential obedience of the Catholic faithful assuming that the above teachings are true.

When I was in the seminary we had a professor who repeatedly stressed to us that God gave us both faith and reason and that we could not rely on one to the exclusion of the other.  These issues have to be looked at not just with faith but with reason as well.  You mention logic - when you boil it all down - here are your only logical, reasonable options:

1. What the Catholic church teaches about the papacy is true and Francis is truly the pope.  However, what that means, as we are discovering, is that moral truth is not objective but subjective.  That's what Jesus meant in the passage in Matthew's gospel where he bestows the keys on Saint Peter, that what was once bound on earth can now be loosed.  Today, it's the definition of adultery, tomorrow it's homosexuality or abortion or who knows what, and a pope can contradict his predecessors and/or the teachings of councils because he holds the keys and has that power.

2. What the Catholic church teaches about the papacy is true but Francis is not really pope.  That will lead you to sedevacantism in some form - either the traditional "there hasn't been a real pope since Pius XII" version espoused by people like those on the website Novus Ordo Watch or the seemingly growing "resignationist" version where the resignation of Benedict XVI was invalid and therefore he's still pope and Francis is not.  To accept that you have to believe that the 99.99% of the world which thinks that Francis is pope is wrong and that includes Benedict himself who recognizes the reality of Francis' papacy.

3. Francis is pope, but what Catholicism teaches about the papacy is false which leads to Orthodoxy.

Some people are trying to construct for themselves a false middle ground.  The so-called "recognize and resist" option, popular among traditionalists that often leads its proponents to parishes run by traditional orders like the Fraternity of Saint Peter, or to the newly created Ordinariate, or to Eastern rite Catholic churches.  But a better, more reverent liturgy, is really just a placebo for such individuals, an effort to escape from reality rather than confront it.  All such groups are under the full authority of Pope Francis and in full communion with the church in Malta which, largely based on Amoris Laetitia, just approved communion for those divorced and civilly remarried Catholics who are "at peace" with the choices they have made, rejecting the explicit and "infallible" doctrine of the Catholic church.

Religion, like politics, involves A LOT of emotion, but I hope that you will be able to put some of that aside and prayerfully look at these matters with logic and reason.  A crisis of faith, although painful and traumatic, can be a great blessing in the end if it leads you to the truth.  May God bless you and guide you in your journey.


Offline petros22

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2017, 08:13:19 PM »
Thanks everyone for the input and thank you especially PJ26. The three numbered points you gave are very much along the lines I have been thinking. I have been thinking along the lines of point 3, that the pope is not infallible, does not have primacy amoungst all bishops or really any special status beyond being the Catholic Church's chief administrator. I am in fact a member of the Ordinariate as I converted to Catholicism from the Church of England. The liturgy is beautiful. But I am feeling more and more like the RC is rapidly departing from Biblical truths under the leadership of someone with frankly very dangerous and possibly heretical views. This is an issue I will not be able to resolve any time soon, it will require a lot of thought and prayer. I will be considering whether to stay where I am, consider becoming Orthodox, or perhaps consider returning to my Anglican roots. I will not be making any decisions in a hurry but I am very grateful for some perspective on the matter.
Almighty God, unto whom all hearts be open, all desires known, and from whom no secretes are hid: cleanse the thoughts of our hearts by the inspiration of thy holy spirit, that we may perfectly love thee, and worthily magnify thy holy name: through Christ our Lord. Amen.

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2017, 09:45:52 PM »
consider becoming Orthodox, or perhaps consider returning to my Anglican roots. I will not be making any decisions in a hurry but I am very grateful for some perspective on the matter.
I don't see how Anglicanism is better in terms of post-Early-Church revisionism, especially wrt marital issues. Right now the Anglican communion is very divided, with the ECUSA under suspension for gay marriage issues AFAIK.

« Last Edit: January 30, 2017, 09:47:07 PM by rakovsky »

Offline PJ26

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2017, 10:15:50 PM »

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2017, 10:41:46 PM »

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2017, 11:16:18 PM »
Anglicanism is worse than Rome. If I wasn't Orthodox, I would probably not be a Christian. Protestantism's two main points, Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide are inherently in contradiction. Sola Fide is not in the Bible, and Sola Scriptura says the Bible is the sole necessary authority. So, which is it? If it's the former, then you reject the latter. If it's the latter, you must reject the former. Furthermore, in terms of "the Bible" which parts are infallible? Is all of it infallible? Then why not sacrifice rams for sin? If only some of it is infallible, it's up to you to figure out which bits.

In any event, I stay away from Rome because I realize that a) I don't assent to their dogmas, b) even if I did assent to their dogmas, I would be a traditionalist type anyway and c) if I was a traditionalist type, I would be disgusted by the Novus Ordo masses anyway, so I probably wouldn't attend to often anyway.

I like where I am right now.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”- St. Ambrose of Milan

"Now one cannot be a half-hearted Christian, but only entirely or not at all." -Fr. Seraphim Rose

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Offline servulus

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2017, 12:19:05 AM »
Hi petros,

Were you looking for a "non-Catholic take" on the issue of infallibility?  Any non-Catholic by definition would reject that teaching.  If there's a non-Catholic out there who believes in papal infallibility, they should convert to Catholicism.  Something to prayerfully keep in mind if you yourself are struggling with that particular teaching is that the First Vatican Council anathematizes any Catholic who rejects it.  As such I'm not sure how any Catholic who takes their faith seriously can deny that teaching and still call themselves Catholic or believe that Catholicism is the true church.

As for Amoris Laetitia - it is not an infallible document strictly speaking, but it is a magisterial document and must be read within the context of what the Catholic church teaches about the papacy.  Many traditionalists and conservatives, led by the likes of Cardinal Burke, are trying to convince themselves and others that it is not so because of the implications that necessarily follow.  However, when one recalls that Pope Francis himself said that his interviews were part of his official papal magisterium and had the Vatican's printing office print them as such, it's frankly absurd to suggest that an apostolic exhortation written at the conclusion of two church synods is somehow not magisterial.

That said remember what Catholicism teaches about the papacy which from a Catholic perspective is infallible.  The two most recent (supposedly) ecumenical councils - Vaticans I and II - state the following:

"Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other Church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman Pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world." - Pastor Aeternus

"Religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will." - Lumen Gentium

The issue of divorce, remarriage, and communion is certainly one of faith, morals, and discipline, and Amoris Laetitia, while not ex cathedra, requires the reverential obedience of the Catholic faithful assuming that the above teachings are true.

When I was in the seminary we had a professor who repeatedly stressed to us that God gave us both faith and reason and that we could not rely on one to the exclusion of the other.  These issues have to be looked at not just with faith but with reason as well.  You mention logic - when you boil it all down - here are your only logical, reasonable options:

1. What the Catholic church teaches about the papacy is true and Francis is truly the pope.  However, what that means, as we are discovering, is that moral truth is not objective but subjective.  That's what Jesus meant in the passage in Matthew's gospel where he bestows the keys on Saint Peter, that what was once bound on earth can now be loosed.  Today, it's the definition of adultery, tomorrow it's homosexuality or abortion or who knows what, and a pope can contradict his predecessors and/or the teachings of councils because he holds the keys and has that power.

2. What the Catholic church teaches about the papacy is true but Francis is not really pope.  That will lead you to sedevacantism in some form - either the traditional "there hasn't been a real pope since Pius XII" version espoused by people like those on the website Novus Ordo Watch or the seemingly growing "resignationist" version where the resignation of Benedict XVI was invalid and therefore he's still pope and Francis is not.  To accept that you have to believe that the 99.99% of the world which thinks that Francis is pope is wrong and that includes Benedict himself who recognizes the reality of Francis' papacy.

3. Francis is pope, but what Catholicism teaches about the papacy is false which leads to Orthodoxy.

Some people are trying to construct for themselves a false middle ground.  The so-called "recognize and resist" option, popular among traditionalists that often leads its proponents to parishes run by traditional orders like the Fraternity of Saint Peter, or to the newly created Ordinariate, or to Eastern rite Catholic churches.  But a better, more reverent liturgy, is really just a placebo for such individuals, an effort to escape from reality rather than confront it.  All such groups are under the full authority of Pope Francis and in full communion with the church in Malta which, largely based on Amoris Laetitia, just approved communion for those divorced and civilly remarried Catholics who are "at peace" with the choices they have made, rejecting the explicit and "infallible" doctrine of the Catholic church.

Religion, like politics, involves A LOT of emotion, but I hope that you will be able to put some of that aside and prayerfully look at these matters with logic and reason.  A crisis of faith, although painful and traumatic, can be a great blessing in the end if it leads you to the truth.  May God bless you and guide you in your journey.
Excellent post. I'm a former SSPX going Catholic. Sedevacantism pretty much renders the Church non existent, unless you believe there will be some miraculous restoration of the papacy and bishops with Apostolic succession. The post V2 popes being real popes and the church being wrong on papal supremacy was the best option.
Amoris Laetitia came after I left. My problems were with the doctrinal contradictions between V2 and the previous teaching. For me the Catholic Church jumped the shark.

Online Vanhyo

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2017, 04:05:53 AM »
Papal infallibility has to do with predestination and denial of free will.
 
Man is made in the image of God but after His likeness, RCs make it sound as if the Pope is not only the image but also the very likeness of God himself, whether the pope wants it or not, he has no choice, if he wants to say something from his chair, he will be automatically prevented from error...

Offline petros22

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2017, 11:03:54 AM »
Infallability would also seem to take away from the free will of the faithful. On CAF today I asked what happens if someone does not believe certain doctrines. This was the response

Quote
CCC 2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."
Almighty God, unto whom all hearts be open, all desires known, and from whom no secretes are hid: cleanse the thoughts of our hearts by the inspiration of thy holy spirit, that we may perfectly love thee, and worthily magnify thy holy name: through Christ our Lord. Amen.

Offline benjohn146

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2017, 01:13:46 PM »
Infallability would also seem to take away from the free will of the faithful. On CAF today I asked what happens if someone does not believe certain doctrines. This was the response

Quote
CCC 2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."

Ouch!!!! Not surprised though... This organization is run like a government or a law office. I think you just had the answer you were looking for in your search.  ;) And with the Anglican communion being the offspring of the RCC, I strongly suggest you look deeper into Orthodoxy. This forum will help you to answer your questions that will arise  :)
St Makarios, pray for us.

Offline J Michael

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2017, 03:47:43 PM »
Infallability would also seem to take away from the free will of the faithful. On CAF today I asked what happens if someone does not believe certain doctrines. This was the response

Quote
CCC 2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."

So...what happens if someone in the Orthodox Church does not or cannot believe certain doctrines?  Are they, too, not considered a heretic?  I wouldn't go so far, though others might, as saying they'd be an apostate as my understanding of apostasy has to do with, as the CCC says, "total repudiation of the Christian faith".  Now, if Orthodoxy alone is the Christian faith, then a repudiation of Orthodoxy or any of its doctrines could be construed as apostasy.  By the same token, if Roman Catholicism alone (as not a few Catholics, especially trads, would claim)  is the Christian faith, the same would apply, right?
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2017, 03:48:59 PM »
Infallability would also seem to take away from the free will of the faithful. On CAF today I asked what happens if someone does not believe certain doctrines. This was the response

Quote
CCC 2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."

I don't see how that has anything to do with free will.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline PJ26

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2017, 04:35:00 PM »
Who needs free will when you have Pope Francis...

"Whoever wishes to discover what Jesus wants from him, he must ask the Pope, this Pope, not the one who came before him, or the one who came before that. This present Pope." - Archbishop Charles Scicluna of Malta

http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/archbishop-scicluna-we-are-following-the-popes-directives

 :o

Offline petros22

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2017, 04:56:10 PM »
The idea that Jesus speaks through the Pope is frankly bizarre.
Almighty God, unto whom all hearts be open, all desires known, and from whom no secretes are hid: cleanse the thoughts of our hearts by the inspiration of thy holy spirit, that we may perfectly love thee, and worthily magnify thy holy name: through Christ our Lord. Amen.

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2017, 05:35:04 PM »
Quote
I don't see how that has anything to do with free will.
Papal infallibility is a form of predestination and predestination is denial of free will.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 05:42:14 PM by Vanhyo »

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2017, 02:22:20 AM »
Quote
I don't see how that has anything to do with free will.
Papal infallibility is a form of predestination and predestination is denial of free will.
Not seeing it
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Offline christiane777

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2017, 09:33:54 PM »
The idea that Jesus speaks through the Pope is frankly bizarre.

I agree that the idea that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ is a little bizarre.  I have a really hard time with Francis on this, but there have been a lot of really bad popes throughout history leading up to the Reformation (and after).  That said, there are a lot of really good men who have been Popes too.  Saints.  JP II.  I am a Catholic.  I have to come to privately view the role of Pope as head of the Church, not unlike the head of the Russian Orthodox Church (elder is it?  sorry) or any other branch of Orthodoxy or the head of the Southern Baptists or Lutherans, etc etc etc.  That I can handle.  An elder.  I do think Francis is a devout man of God.  I don't agree with his politics or where he so clearly wants to take the Church and his increasingly ruthless ways of taking it there.  But I think he is perhaps just not a good leader; he is limited by his South American Jesuit background, value and thought system (think Marxism/socialism); it is not that he is intentionally trying to do harm per se.  He wants his will implemented in the Church which he geniunely believes to be Christ's will.  I think his views are narrow; he doesn't see the threat of opening the Church up to increased secularism and subjectivity for what it is (I refer to AL).  He is in error here.  To not see this in this day and age is very bizarre.  He also has a little bit of a mean streak, snipes relentlessly at his fellow brethren.

There are so many good Catholics though at all levels of the Church.  And frankly the Orthodox Church feels really Eastern to me personally, foreign.  Though I have a lot of respect for it.  It has fallen to Orthodoxy to carry on the faith really with the RCC in crisis.  I pray you do so.  But we need true Christians to fight for the Latin Church as well.  Don't go gently into the good night.  Whether I am a good or bad Catholic I will leave to God, but I am a Catholic (and I don't honestly care a fig what Francis has to say about it).  I do wonder sometimes if I am judging him too harshly - I pray I am not.  It's sad.  You can't let your own faith and mercy get hurt by this.  We have to stay Christians committed to doctrine AND mercy, not degenerate into angry dogmatists.   Become what Francis says we are.  The best revenge is living well (i.e. in truth and love, both) - and saving the Church right from under his nose.   :)  This is where I stand on this anyway.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2017, 09:35:32 PM by christiane777 »
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Offline PJ26

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2017, 10:46:51 PM »
"I agree that the idea that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ is a little bizarre."

"I have to come to privately view the role of Pope as head of the Church, not unlike the head of the Russian Orthodox Church (elder is it?  sorry) or any other branch of Orthodoxy or the head of the Southern Baptists or Lutherans, etc etc etc.  That I can handle."

"Whether I am a good or bad Catholic I will leave to God, but I am a Catholic (and I don't honestly care a fig what Francis has to say about it)."

I don't wish to come off judgmental or harsh or anything - but by saying these things you aren't Catholic - it's not a case of good or bad - by definition you aren't Catholic.  The Catholic church itself says so.  Holding these beliefs puts you outside of the Catholic church.  I mean you can go through the motions, go to mass, identify yourself to others as being Catholic, whatever, but you're not.  Am I a Christian if I don't believe in the Trinity?  Am I a Muslim if I deny the teachings of Muhammad?  Does simply saying I am make it so?  You may want to read Pastor Aeternus.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2017, 01:31:56 AM »
I agree with PJ26. To be a Catholic means to assent to all of the particulars of the doctrines and teachings of the Roman Church. Rome teaches the Pope is more than simply a visible "head" he is the representative of Christ on Earth, without him there is no visible Church in the world, and he claims infallible and supreme authority.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2017, 01:38:19 AM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2017, 03:28:14 AM »
I think bishops being vicars of Christ and speaking for him can be understood in an orthodox way. I don't know whether pop Francis is a true bishop though.

Offline PJ26

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2017, 09:23:16 AM »
Yes, but the validity of holy orders in the post-Vatican 2 or post-schism Catholic church is neither here nor there as far as the present discussion goes as is how one might interpret Catholic terms in an Orthodox way.  After all, there's a perfectly Orthodox way to understand the primacy of the Bishop of Rome.  What's at issue here is that the Catholic church says you MUST believe a, b, and c about the papacy if you're Catholic and if you don't you're anathematized and Christiane is saying that she rejects a, b, and c but still thinks she's Catholic.  Based on her post, she seems like a nice person who loves her faith, so this is probably just another case of a poorly catechized post-V2 Catholic rather than willful ignorance and obstinacy.  However, she has an obligation to know what her religion teaches and follow it. 
« Last Edit: February 07, 2017, 09:23:47 AM by PJ26 »

Offline Luka

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2017, 03:08:05 PM »
Papal infallibility is a form of predestination and predestination is denial of free will.
Why? The dogma of papal infallibility states that the Pope is infallible when speaking ex cathedra on matters of faith or morals. It is reasonable to think that when the Pope speaks on these matters, he wishes (an act of will) to speak truth. The dogma merely states that God effectively supports his free will with supernatural grace of infallibility.

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2017, 02:56:11 AM »
My comment was moved to another place, let me copy paste what I wrote earlier:


Quote
It is reasonable to think that when the Pope speaks on these matters, he wishes (an act of will) to speak truth.
How do you know what he wishes ? What if he is passionate about a false dogma and want to proclaim it from his chair ?
« Last Edit: February 08, 2017, 02:57:05 AM by Vanhyo »

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2017, 04:12:04 PM »
When I look at the exceptions some RC's  put to papal infability, I kinda think they're tautological. "The Pope is infallible, unless he's wrong."

For instance, Sedevacantists believe recent Popes weren't real Popes, since they spoke heresy. So they weren't infallible because they were wrong, but would they be infallible if they were right?

But I get many Traditionalists believe the heretic Popes never spoke according to the criteria of infallibility.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2017, 04:12:56 PM by RaphaCam »
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2017, 04:15:48 PM »
Yeah, when you really get into the details, I fail to see how Papal infallibility solves any of the problems it's supposed to solve or provides any of the reassurance it's supposed to provide.
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Offline Luka

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2017, 06:10:50 PM »
How do you know what he wishes ? What if he is passionate about a false dogma and want to proclaim it from his chair ?
The burden of proof rests on the one claiming that the Pope intentionally wishes to proclaim falsehood. Unless proven, we cannot ascribe to anyone bad intentions without being condemned ourselves.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2017, 06:53:38 PM »
How do you know what he wishes ? What if he is passionate about a false dogma and want to proclaim it from his chair ?
The burden of proof rests on the one claiming that the Pope intentionally wishes to proclaim falsehood. Unless proven, we cannot ascribe to anyone bad intentions without being condemned ourselves.

I don't know why intentionality matters. If he proclaims a false dogma, intentionally or not, it's wrong.
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Offline Luka

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2017, 03:35:52 PM »
I don't know why intentionality matters. If he proclaims a false dogma, intentionally or not, it's wrong.
We were talking about whether papal infallibility entails a denial of free will. It does not, because the Catholic teaching assumes that the Pope is infallible when he wishes to declare something as truth. That's all.

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2017, 03:41:51 PM »
I don't know why intentionality matters. If he proclaims a false dogma, intentionally or not, it's wrong.
We were talking about whether papal infallibility entails a denial of free will. It does not, because the Catholic teaching assumes that the Pope is infallible when he wishes to declare something as truth. That's all.

Yeah, I don't see how it denies free will. It denies free will on the part of those who have to adhere to it, surely. But the Pope isn't infallible unless he speaks definitively on an issue of morals or faith. The Pope just saying something heretical in an off the cuff manner is not infallible in RC ecclesiology.
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Offline Luka

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2017, 04:32:53 PM »
Yeah, I don't see how it denies free will. It denies free will on the part of those who have to adhere to it, surely.
Why do you think so?
Quote
But the Pope isn't infallible unless he speaks definitively on an issue of morals or faith. The Pope just saying something heretical in an off the cuff manner is not infallible in RC ecclesiology.
Yes, of course.

Offline PJ26

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2017, 04:50:01 PM »
I don't think it denies the free will of its potential adherents because they are still free to reject it as far as their own personal will is concerned.  However, in rejecting it one would be rejecting two supposedly infallible teachings - both the infallible teaching regarding the pope's own charisma of infallibility along with the infallibility of whatever new dogma is proclaimed.  The Catholic who finds him or herself in disagreement with said teachings is free to either say - "well you're the pope so you must know what you're talking about so I'll go along with it even though I may not understand," and thereby remain Catholic or "no, that's crazy, pope or no, you're wrong," in which case they should really consider an alternative faith.

Offline Luka

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2017, 07:34:12 PM »
Well, in essence that's how Christianity works, isn't it? Either you accept the teaching of the Church or you need to find a different religion.

Offline PJ26

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2017, 10:00:37 PM »
In theory it should, but look at Christiane's post above.  I'm a convert to Orthodoxy so I can't speak to how well, in general, the average individual Orthodox knows and follows the tenets of the Faith.  However, I do know that the average post-V2 Catholic is extremely ignorant when it comes to the tenets of Catholicism and even when they do have more than a basic grasp of its teachings, they often don't care and choose not to follow them.  Cafeteria Catholicism is epidemic whether with liberals under popes JP2 and Benedict or now with traditionalists under pope Francis.  I couldn't square the circle despite my best efforts so I left Catholicism for Orthodoxy, but that's not the case with most Catholics unfortunately.

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2017, 06:19:22 AM »
Catholic returnee from Orthodoxy here. I know you asked for non-Catholic opinion here, and although I've stayed off this board partly because of Internet etiquette (I certainly wouldn't like someone preaching Orthodoxy on a Catholic board), the good of souls calls for a reply, then I'll go away again, maybe for good.

Divorce and remarriage is impossible. Even the Pope can't change that; his job is to defend our doctrine. (As I believe a former Catholic seminarian pointed out here, Amoris Laetitia isn't magisterial.) I'm not running away from reality by being Catholic; I'm betting the farm on reality.

So let me get this straight: you're upset because a churchman is proposing divorce and remarriage, so you're considering leaving the church for a faith that has long endorsed divorce and remarriage?

Don't leave the church.

By the way, I go to a Ukrainian Catholic parish once a month, still have an authentic Russian icon corner (icons from a deceased old Russian gentleman), say Byzantine Rite prayers in front of it daily (I know Slavonic and Russian), and wear a three-bar cross. Because the church says I can.

Go with God.
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Offline PJ26

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2017, 09:29:13 AM »
Amoris Laetitia is ABSOLUTELY magisterial unless you're in a state of total denial as many traditional and conservative Catholics are these days.  Now, it's not ex cathedra but Catholicism's teachings regarding the papacy require Catholics to obey it (please see my really long post above). 

Now, I'm not a fan of Orthodoxy's acceptance of divorce and remarriage.  It was the last hurdle I had to overcome before becoming Orthodox.  But I can understand how a marriage can fail and how under very specific circumstances the Orthodox Church will bless a second marriage.  If I have to compare that to what was already a complete joke of an annulment process within Catholicism, where one can conceivably receive an unlimited number of annulments, the reasons for which were expanded greatly under pope Francis' recent motu propio to include "etc." it's clear that the Orthodox way is by far the lesser evil. 

Getting back to Amoris Laetitia, what is at issue is that Catholicism is now sanctioning people who are divorced and CIVILLY remarried to receive communion.  These aren't just adulterers from a Catholic perspective, they are people having sexual relations outside of a sacramental marriage, both of which are mortal sins, who are being allowed to receive communion which when in a state of mortal sin is itself a mortal sin.  Like it or not, the only way Catholicism can square all of this is to do precisely what Orthodoxy is currently doing, bless a second sacramental marriage. 

Offline Luka

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2017, 09:32:13 AM »
In theory it should, but look at Christiane's post above.  I'm a convert to Orthodoxy so I can't speak to how well, in general, the average individual Orthodox knows and follows the tenets of the Faith.  However, I do know that the average post-V2 Catholic is extremely ignorant when it comes to the tenets of Catholicism and even when they do have more than a basic grasp of its teachings, they often don't care and choose not to follow them.  Cafeteria Catholicism is epidemic whether with liberals under popes JP2 and Benedict or now with traditionalists under pope Francis.  I couldn't square the circle despite my best efforts so I left Catholicism for Orthodoxy, but that's not the case with most Catholics unfortunately.
I wouldn't say that Christiane's view falls into the category of Cafeteria Catholicism. In fact it is closer to the tradition of the Roman Church than the more common attitudes held by Catholics nowadays. It is only with the recent decades that Catholics began to rely so strongly on EVERY opinion of the Pope (justifiably since recent bishops of Rome were in general intelligent, learned and well spoken Christians). With pope Francis, many Catholics have awaken to the darker side of this reliance and are simply returning to the tradition in which the Pope is not some kind of golden-mouthed guru, but merely a universal administrator of the Church and a passive (reactive) guardian of the Catholic tradition.

The ills brought upon the Catholic Church by the aftermath of the Second Vatican Council are well known, but I doubt that the ignorance of Catholics in regards to their faith is anything that couldn't be found among the average Orthodox in Orthodox lands. The problem is rather with the Catholic Church's tolerance for most incredible distortions of the faith. Well, I pray that they will finally find a way out of this.

BTW, I was also raised Catholic, although my way to the Orthodox Church was a bit more complicated than yours.

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2017, 09:40:09 AM »
I meant not ex cathedra. So I ignore it.

Catholicism doesn't commune the divorced and civilly remarried, which is adultery. It can't. Some bad churchmen do.

Quote
It was the last hurdle I had to overcome before becoming Orthodox.  But I can understand how a marriage can fail and how under very specific circumstances the Orthodox Church will bless a second marriage.

I used to make excuses because I wanted to leave the church too.
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Offline PJ26

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2017, 10:03:52 AM »
"Catholicism doesn't commune the divorced and civilly remarried"

Have you not read what's going on in Malta and Germany?  The bishops conferences of each have now begun to allow it.  Not some rogue priest or two, the bishops conferences of the two countries.  In Malta, it's a blanket permission for the divorced and civilly remarried to go to communion if they feel "at peace."  In Germany, the divorced and civilly remarried can go to communion with the OK of their pastor.  Both the bishops of Malta and Germany have specifically credited pope Francis and Amoris Laetitia for this change.  And has pope Francis come out to correct them?  Nope.  This is a change in Catholic teaching sanctioned by the pope to allow "adulterers" to receive communion.  I'm sorry, I really truly am sorry for you, if your love for your faith prevents you from seeing that, but denying the reality of a situation doesn't make it not so.

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2017, 12:20:19 PM »
Divorce and remarriage is impossible.
You give the pseudo scholastics of our day a bad name, they'd at least cite some incoherent essentialist-but-not argument when denying reality.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 12:20:51 PM by NicholasMyra »
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2017, 01:16:40 PM »
AL is a pastoral document. It has no effect on church teaching whatsoever. It is both unnecessary and irrelevant. Just simply ignore it l. Why would you want to leave the church for a piece of paper?
Don't do it unless you have a better reason.
It should have zero effect on your spiritual life. It is sad if AL leads people astray, but then again there is in the end not much you can do about it. Compared to what the church saw through throughout the centuries, this is just a mini crisis.

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #46 on: February 11, 2017, 01:22:00 PM »
Just grab them by prayer.


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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #47 on: February 11, 2017, 01:29:01 PM »
It seems there is some Schadenfreude .
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 01:31:22 PM by Lepanto »

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2017, 01:58:04 PM »
AL is a pastoral document. It has no effect on church teaching whatsoever. It is both unnecessary and irrelevant. Just simply ignore it l. Why would you want to leave the church for a piece of paper?
Don't do it unless you have a better reason.
It should have zero effect on your spiritual life. It is sad if AL leads people astray, but then again there is in the end not much you can do about it. Compared to what the church saw through throughout the centuries, this is just a mini crisis.

Forget the empirical evidence to the contrary wherein it will have a direct effect on the practice of the Church, it's still "pastoral."
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #49 on: February 11, 2017, 02:25:26 PM »
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

Western Christianity went down the drain many centuries ago from an Eastern perspective.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 02:25:55 PM by Cyrillic »
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #50 on: February 11, 2017, 03:20:44 PM »
It seems there is some Schadenfreude .
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

I derive no pleasure from observing what the Roman Catholics are going through; I believe it is an inevitable consequence of their theological system (whether or not the current controversy is more or less serious than previous controversies). 

Roman Catholics believe that the Popes are heads of the Church on earth, that they have universal, immediate, ordinary, personal jurisdiction over all Catholics, that they are infallible when speaking ex cathedra, that even when not speaking so their teachings and rulings are to be given pious assent by the faithful, etc.  Yet, when a Pope teaches something, the people squirm according to their own predilections. 

So, for example, when Pope John Paul II authoritatively taught that women couldn't be ordained to the priesthood, those who supported the prohibition of women's ordination loved and supported the exercise of papal authority, while those who didn't went on about how it was not (clearly) an infallible definition so perhaps another Pope could rule differently, that it only spoke of priests and not deacons, etc. 

A similar thing is happening with AL.  Those who support the proposal to admit divorced and remarried people to Communion are happy to refer to AL as a magisterial document, highlight the Pope's authority and jurisdiction, begin to implement it, and punish those who do not.  Those who oppose the proposal claim that AL is not magisterial, is not a teaching, that Popes are not always infallible, that some should be opposed and formally corrected, etc.  Often, those who are ultramontane on one issue are left-of-Anglican on others. 

Roman Catholics have a love/hate relationship with the Christian East, and which is at play depends on whether our position is agreeable to them.  So, for example, the same crowd that invokes us as an example of liturgical conservatism/traditionalism in order to combat the myriad insanities found in RC churches on any given day will also self-servingly attack us on our "teaching" on divorce and remarriage (which even their own Cardinals do not really understand because they insist on interpreting it through their own theological system rather than learning ours) because it makes them feel good to believe they have not "sold out".   

I don't see "laetitia" in any of this.  What I see is a lot of confusion among people who are united by a belief in the Pope's authority but only put it into practice when the Pope agrees with them.  And then their apologists wish to impose their theological system on us as an element of apostolic faith by pointing to our alleged confusion, lack of authority, doctrinal deviations, etc. because we don't have that belief.

On the one hand, I am sad for them.  On the other hand, they seem to prefer their system as is and wish for us to submit to it: while I wish them well, we could never do such a thing because then we, like them, would be abandoning the Church of Christ and its divinely-revealed faith for a religion of mere man, by mere man, for mere man, as mere man.   
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #51 on: February 11, 2017, 03:23:57 PM »
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

Western Christianity went down the drain many centuries ago from an Eastern perspective.
In what way did the West went down the drain? I do not like their theology that much but they do have Augustine who seems to have been the greatest theologian in history.

Offline Ilyin

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #52 on: February 11, 2017, 04:13:45 PM »
Hello - sorry for coming late to this. The only position for a Catholic these days is sedevacantism or to become Orthodox. I know this because I was there myself. The Roman Catholic Church these days is run by a group of liberal-socialist secular protestants. This is absolutely without doubt whatsoever. Of course there are people like Cardinal Burke, the SSPX and good faithful folk all over, but the mainstream hierarchy and the so-called magisterium are 100% "through the looking glass". To pretend this is not true is casuistry in the extreme. I do feel sorry for the those in the RC church trapped in this dilemma but there is a solution. In Orthodoxy we also have a huge swathe of "go with the flow" anti-Trump, anti-Putin, pro "human rights" and even LGBT modernists - BUT these are not the backbone of the Church and they will die out like a passing fad. Go to Russia and you will see the real Church !  Also - the Church is bigger than any one mere man  - or even group of men, as the absurd "council" in Crete showed. Answer - Come to Orthodoxy! Yours Seraphim

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #53 on: February 11, 2017, 04:17:15 PM »
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #54 on: February 11, 2017, 04:19:47 PM »
Hello - sorry for coming late to this. The only position for a Catholic these days is sedevacantism or to become Orthodox. I know this because I was there myself. The Roman Catholic Church these days is run by a group of liberal-socialist secular protestants. This is absolutely without doubt whatsoever. Of course there are people like Cardinal Burke, the SSPX and good faithful folk all over, but the mainstream hierarchy and the so-called magisterium are 100% "through the looking glass". To pretend this is not true is casuistry in the extreme. I do feel sorry for the those in the RC church trapped in this dilemma but there is a solution. In Orthodoxy we also have a huge swathe of "go with the flow" anti-Trump, anti-Putin, pro "human rights" and even LGBT modernists - BUT these are not the backbone of the Church and they will die out like a passing fad. Go to Russia and you will see the real Church !  Also - the Church is bigger than any one mere man  - or even group of men, as the absurd "council" in Crete showed. Answer - Come to Orthodoxy! Yours Seraphim

lol. Most laughable post of this thread.
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #55 on: February 11, 2017, 05:06:07 PM »
Yeah, when you really get into the details, I fail to see how Papal infallibility solves any of the problems it's supposed to solve or provides any of the reassurance it's supposed to provide.

Roman Catholics believe that the Popes are heads of the Church on earth, that they have universal, immediate, ordinary, personal jurisdiction over all Catholics, that they are infallible when speaking ex cathedra, that even when not speaking so their teachings and rulings are to be given pious assent by the faithful, etc.  Yet, when a Pope teaches something, the people squirm according to their own predilections. 

So, for example, when Pope John Paul II authoritatively taught that women couldn't be ordained to the priesthood, those who supported the prohibition of women's ordination loved and supported the exercise of papal authority, while those who didn't went on about how it was not (clearly) an infallible definition so perhaps another Pope could rule differently, that it only spoke of priests and not deacons, etc. 

A similar thing is happening with AL.  Those who support the proposal to admit divorced and remarried people to Communion are happy to refer to AL as a magisterial document, highlight the Pope's authority and jurisdiction, begin to implement it, and punish those who do not.  Those who oppose the proposal claim that AL is not magisterial, is not a teaching, that Popes are not always infallible, that some should be opposed and formally corrected, etc.  Often, those who are ultramontane on one issue are left-of-Anglican on others. 

Roman Catholics have a love/hate relationship with the Christian East, and which is at play depends on whether our position is agreeable to them.  So, for example, the same crowd that invokes us as an example of liturgical conservatism/traditionalism in order to combat the myriad insanities found in RC churches on any given day will also self-servingly attack us on our "teaching" on divorce and remarriage (which even their own Cardinals do not really understand because they insist on interpreting it through their own theological system rather than learning ours) because it makes them feel good to believe they have not "sold out".   

I don't see "laetitia" in any of this.  What I see is a lot of confusion among people who are united by a belief in the Pope's authority but only put it into practice when the Pope agrees with them.  And then their apologists wish to impose their theological system on us as an element of apostolic faith by pointing to our alleged confusion, lack of authority, doctrinal deviations, etc. because we don't have that belief.
+1000. The hypocrisy of some of their apologetics was one thing I noticed while I was inquiring between Catholicism and Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 05:25:28 PM by byhisgrace »
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #56 on: February 11, 2017, 05:41:25 PM »
I think the terms 'Orthodox' and 'Catholic' are interchangable, .. Which is meant to signify the Main Apostolic Church.

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #57 on: February 11, 2017, 05:44:56 PM »
but they do have Augustine who seems to have been the greatest theologian in history.

Nah.
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #58 on: February 11, 2017, 05:57:25 PM »
Your bottom line seems to be: "We have seen it coming all along because papal primacy to the extent the RC demand it is plainly wrong, so Roman Catholicism is intrinsically flawed. It was and is question of time. What happens to a branch cut off a tree?"
I tell you one thing: You are next. They will get you. Modernism and relativism will not stop when they have destroyed large parts of the RC church. This is a huge thing. Orthodoxy may seem immune to you, but it is not. So better stop feeling superior now.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 05:58:24 PM by Lepanto »

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #59 on: February 11, 2017, 06:05:29 PM »
I think the terms 'Orthodox' and 'Catholic' are interchangable, .. Which is meant to signify the Main Apostolic Church.
Yes and no. Both Eastern/Oriental Orthodox and the Roman Catholics consider their own Church both "Orthodox" and "Catholic", in the sense that they are the true, universal Church founded by Christ. I was just using the words "Orthodox" and "Catholic" in the conventional sense, i.e. the way most people call each Church, nowadays.
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #60 on: February 11, 2017, 06:06:46 PM »
How does this:

"You are next. They will get you. Modernism and relativism will not stop when they have destroyed large parts of the RC church. This is a huge thing. Orthodoxy may seem immune to you, but it is not. So better stop feeling superior now."

In any way negate the truth of this:

"We have seen it coming all along because papal primacy to the extent the RC demand it is plainly wrong, so Roman Catholicism is intrinsically flawed. It was and is question of time. What happens to a branch cut off a tree?"

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #61 on: February 11, 2017, 06:10:42 PM »
Your bottom line seems to be: "We have seen it coming all along because papal primacy to the extent the RC demand it is plainly wrong, so Roman Catholicism is intrinsically flawed. It was and is question of time. What happens to a branch cut off a tree?"
I tell you one thing: You are next. They will get you. Modernism and relativism will not stop when they have destroyed large parts of the RC church. This is a huge thing. Orthodoxy may seem immune to you, but it is not. So better stop feeling superior now.

To whom are you responding? 
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #62 on: February 11, 2017, 06:11:30 PM »
How does this:

"You are next. They will get you. Modernism and relativism will not stop when they have destroyed large parts of the RC church. This is a huge thing. Orthodoxy may seem immune to you, but it is not. So better stop feeling superior now."

In any way negate the truth of this:

"We have seen it coming all along because papal primacy to the extent the RC demand it is plainly wrong, so Roman Catholicism is intrinsically flawed. It was and is question of time. What happens to a branch cut off a tree?"

Obviously, I do not think that the three sentences immediately above are true. This was just condensing what several previous posts said.

Offline WPM

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #63 on: February 11, 2017, 06:13:02 PM »
It seems there is some Schadenfreude .
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

I derive no pleasure from observing what the Roman Catholics are going through; I believe it is an inevitable consequence of their theological system (whether or not the current controversy is more or less serious than previous controversies). 

Roman Catholics believe that the Popes are heads of the Church on earth, that they have universal, immediate, ordinary, personal jurisdiction over all Catholics, that they are infallible when speaking ex cathedra, that even when not speaking so their teachings and rulings are to be given pious assent by the faithful, etc.  Yet, when a Pope teaches something, the people squirm according to their own predilections. 

So, for example, when Pope John Paul II authoritatively taught that women couldn't be ordained to the priesthood, those who supported the prohibition of women's ordination loved and supported the exercise of papal authority, while those who didn't went on about how it was not (clearly) an infallible definition so perhaps another Pope could rule differently, that it only spoke of priests and not deacons, etc. 

A similar thing is happening with AL.  Those who support the proposal to admit divorced and remarried people to Communion are happy to refer to AL as a magisterial document, highlight the Pope's authority and jurisdiction, begin to implement it, and punish those who do not.  Those who oppose the proposal claim that AL is not magisterial, is not a teaching, that Popes are not always infallible, that some should be opposed and formally corrected, etc.  Often, those who are ultramontane on one issue are left-of-Anglican on others. 

Roman Catholics have a love/hate relationship with the Christian East, and which is at play depends on whether our position is agreeable to them.  So, for example, the same crowd that invokes us as an example of liturgical conservatism/traditionalism in order to combat the myriad insanities found in RC churches on any given day will also self-servingly attack us on our "teaching" on divorce and remarriage (which even their own Cardinals do not really understand because they insist on interpreting it through their own theological system rather than learning ours) because it makes them feel good to believe they have not "sold out".   

I don't see "laetitia" in any of this.  What I see is a lot of confusion among people who are united by a belief in the Pope's authority but only put it into practice when the Pope agrees with them.  And then their apologists wish to impose their theological system on us as an element of apostolic faith by pointing to our alleged confusion, lack of authority, doctrinal deviations, etc. because we don't have that belief.

On the one hand, I am sad for them.  On the other hand, they seem to prefer their system as is and wish for us to submit to it: while I wish them well, we could never do such a thing because then we, like them, would be abandoning the Church of Christ and its divinely-revealed faith for a religion of mere man, by mere man, for mere man, as mere man.   


So . . .

The Catholic Pope is speaking ex cathedra when clarifying to the Catholics? ...

Offline Luka

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #64 on: February 11, 2017, 06:15:41 PM »
Your bottom line seems to be: "We have seen it coming all along because papal primacy to the extent the RC demand it is plainly wrong, so Roman Catholicism is intrinsically flawed. It was and is question of time. What happens to a branch cut off a tree?"
I tell you one thing: You are next. They will get you. Modernism and relativism will not stop when they have destroyed large parts of the RC church. This is a huge thing. Orthodoxy may seem immune to you, but it is not. So better stop feeling superior now.
Catholic and Orthodox communities have their own unique issues. Unfortunately just as the Orthodox blame Papacy for all the Catholic problems, Catholics blame Orthodox rejection of Papacy for the Orthodox problems. It's a pity that in the midst of this so few are eager to repent from the haughty spirit of "I told you". If we don't support each other in prayer and action, we will all go down the drain confident of our own superiority. And in this humiliation there will be no Christ-like glory.

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #65 on: February 11, 2017, 06:20:31 PM »
Your bottom line seems to be: "We have seen it coming all along because papal primacy to the extent the RC demand it is plainly wrong, so Roman Catholicism is intrinsically flawed. It was and is question of time. What happens to a branch cut off a tree?"
I tell you one thing: You are next. They will get you. Modernism and relativism will not stop when they have destroyed large parts of the RC church. This is a huge thing. Orthodoxy may seem immune to you, but it is not. So better stop feeling superior now.
Catholic and Orthodox communities have their own unique issues. Unfortunately just as the Orthodox blame Papacy for all the Catholic problems, Catholics blame Orthodox rejection of Papacy for the Orthodox problems. It's a pity that in the midst of this so few are eager to repent from the haughty spirit of "I told you". If we don't support each other in prayer and action, we will all go down the drain confident of our own superiority. And in this humiliation there will be no Christ-like glory.

Exactly.
I thank you for this.

Offline WPM

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #66 on: February 11, 2017, 06:21:00 PM »
It seems there is some Schadenfreude .
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

I don't think anyone explained what Schadenfreude actually is? ...

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #67 on: February 11, 2017, 06:23:44 PM »
I tell you one thing: You are next. They will get you. Modernism and relativism will not stop when they have destroyed large parts of the RC church. This is a huge thing. Orthodoxy may seem immune to you, but it is not. So better stop feeling superior now.

Why worry so much if you believe that the gates of hell won't prevail over the Church?
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #68 on: February 11, 2017, 06:24:08 PM »
Your bottom line seems to be: "We have seen it coming all along because papal primacy to the extent the RC demand it is plainly wrong, so Roman Catholicism is intrinsically flawed. It was and is question of time. What happens to a branch cut off a tree?"
I tell you one thing: You are next. They will get you. Modernism and relativism will not stop when they have destroyed large parts of the RC church. This is a huge thing. Orthodoxy may seem immune to you, but it is not. So better stop feeling superior now.

I always love it when my coreligionists start complaining about "modernism." I often wonder if they forgot about the Thirty Years War.
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Offline Luka

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #69 on: February 11, 2017, 06:29:15 PM »
I tell you one thing: You are next. They will get you. Modernism and relativism will not stop when they have destroyed large parts of the RC church. This is a huge thing. Orthodoxy may seem immune to you, but it is not. So better stop feeling superior now.

Why worry so much if you believe that the gates of hell won't prevail over the Church?
They still can prevail over much of the Church bringing spiritual destruction of the faithful, can't they?

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #70 on: February 11, 2017, 06:32:43 PM »
I tell you one thing: You are next. They will get you. Modernism and relativism will not stop when they have destroyed large parts of the RC church. This is a huge thing. Orthodoxy may seem immune to you, but it is not. So better stop feeling superior now.

Why worry so much if you believe that the gates of hell won't prevail over the Church?
They still can prevail over much of the Church bringing spiritual destruction of the faithful, can't they?

There is something to Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI's suggestion of a smaller but purer Church.

« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 06:33:39 PM by Cyrillic »
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #71 on: February 11, 2017, 06:33:43 PM »
Your bottom line seems to be: "We have seen it coming all along because papal primacy to the extent the RC demand it is plainly wrong, so Roman Catholicism is intrinsically flawed. It was and is question of time. What happens to a branch cut off a tree?"
I tell you one thing: You are next. They will get you. Modernism and relativism will not stop when they have destroyed large parts of the RC church. This is a huge thing. Orthodoxy may seem immune to you, but it is not. So better stop feeling superior now.
Catholic and Orthodox communities have their own unique issues. Unfortunately just as the Orthodox blame Papacy for all the Catholic problems, Catholics blame Orthodox rejection of Papacy for the Orthodox problems. It's a pity that in the midst of this so few are eager to repent from the haughty spirit of "I told you". If we don't support each other in prayer and action, we will all go down the drain confident of our own superiority. And in this humiliation there will be no Christ-like glory.
I support this post, wholeheartedly. I disagree with RC teaching, but I don't feel the need to poke fun at internal problems in the RCC at every opportunity. I don't feel superior to other Christians just because I am Orthdox and not X,Y, or Z. Perhaps one of my previous posts was polemical, but it was not out of a "My Church is better than yours" attitude, but out of a reaction to the flawed apologetics and superiority complex expressed by some (not saying all, or even most) of the pro-papacy apologists I have seen in the past.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 06:50:33 PM by byhisgrace »
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Offline Luka

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #72 on: February 11, 2017, 06:38:59 PM »
I tell you one thing: You are next. They will get you. Modernism and relativism will not stop when they have destroyed large parts of the RC church. This is a huge thing. Orthodoxy may seem immune to you, but it is not. So better stop feeling superior now.

Why worry so much if you believe that the gates of hell won't prevail over the Church?
They still can prevail over much of the Church bringing spiritual destruction of the faithful, can't they?

There is something to Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI's suggestion of a smaller but purer Church.
And yet Pope Benedict spoke not of spiritual deterioration, but of external afflictions and pressures of the times. Lepanto, and every person loving the members of Christ's Body, is worried about the former, because this is what brings true loss.

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #73 on: February 11, 2017, 06:48:31 PM »
It seems there is some Schadenfreude .
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

I don't think anyone explained what Schadenfreude actually is? ...
It is German. I would paraphrase as "enjoying if something bad happens to another person".

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #74 on: February 11, 2017, 07:07:29 PM »
I tell you one thing: You are next. They will get you. Modernism and relativism will not stop when they have destroyed large parts of the RC church. This is a huge thing. Orthodoxy may seem immune to you, but it is not. So better stop feeling superior now.

Why worry so much if you believe that the gates of hell won't prevail over the Church?
They still can prevail over much of the Church bringing spiritual destruction of the faithful, can't they?

There is something to Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI's suggestion of a smaller but purer Church.
And yet Pope Benedict spoke not of spiritual deterioration, but of external afflictions and pressures of the times. Lepanto, and every person loving the members of Christ's Body, is worried about the former, because this is what brings true loss.
what is "Christ's body"?

We need to be honest with our disagreements.  This not triumphalism.  This is being honest with the disagreeements we have based on the discussions we had to try to comprehend the unnecessary doctrine of papal infallibility.
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Offline PJ26

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #75 on: February 11, 2017, 07:08:06 PM »
Got an email from someone along the lines of what Lepanto wrote above that Amoris Laetitia is not magisterial.  So I just wanted to point out a couple of things.

1. Pope Francis said that the interpretation of Amoris Laetitia by Cardinal Schonborn of Vienna was the definitive one.

"On the flight returning from Greece, Pope Francis was asked if the Apostolic Exhortation contained a 'change in discipline that governs access to the sacraments' for Catholics who are divorced and remarried. The Pope replied, 'I can say yes, period.' Adding, however, that this would be 'too small' of an answer, the Pope then urged reading the presentation of Cardinal Schönborn, calling Schönborn a 'great theologian who knows the doctrine of the Church.'  'In that presentation your question will have the answer,' the pope concluded."

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/pope-says-schonborn-interpretation-on-communion-for-remarried-is-the-final

2. Cardinal Schonborn said the following:

"It is obvious that this is an act of the magisterium: It is an apostolic exhortation. It is clear that the pope is exercising here his role of pastor, of master and teacher of the faith, after having benefited from the consultation of the two synods. I have no doubt that it must be said that this is a pontifical document of great quality, an authentic teaching of sacra doctrina, which leads us back to the contemporary relevance of the Word of God."

https://cnsblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/07/the-teaching-authority-of-amoris-laetitia/

So the Pope says that AL contains a change in sacramental discipline and directs individuals to Cardinal Schonborn who says it's magisterial, "an authentic teaching of sacra doctrina" but despite this some are still able to conclude something completely to the contrary.

All of this reminds me of an episode of the Simpsons years ago.  Homer, trying to one up Flanders, has a BBQ with this beautiful pig, but the pig is on a cart with wheels and the cart ends up rolling away with the pig.  The pig goes through one dirty place after another with Homer and Bart chasing behind and Homer desperately maintaining "it's still good, it's still good." 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MWvevkE0kAI

The only difference is that at least Homer finally accepted the reality of the situation and gave up.  When will AL deniers accept the truth?  Perhaps when pigs fly. ;)


Offline WPM

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #76 on: February 11, 2017, 07:21:53 PM »
Maybe I shouldn't take words on a forum seriously anymore.

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #77 on: February 11, 2017, 07:28:26 PM »
Maybe I shouldn't take words on a forum seriously anymore.

Good idea.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #78 on: February 12, 2017, 12:20:42 AM »
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

Western Christianity went down the drain many centuries ago from an Eastern perspective.
In what way did the West went down the drain? I do not like their theology that much but they do have Augustine who seems to have been the greatest theologian in history.

Augustine is not a theologian in the Orthodox Church. The theologians are St. Gregory the Theologian and St. Simeon the Theologian. He also is heavily influenced by prophet Mani.
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #79 on: February 12, 2017, 05:48:19 AM »
Got an email from someone along the lines of what Lepanto wrote above that Amoris Laetitia is not magisterial.  So I just wanted to point out a couple of things.

1. Pope Francis said that the interpretation of Amoris Laetitia by Cardinal Schonborn of Vienna was the definitive one.

"On the flight returning from Greece, Pope Francis was asked if the Apostolic Exhortation contained a 'change in discipline that governs access to the sacraments' for Catholics who are divorced and remarried. The Pope replied, 'I can say yes, period.' Adding, however, that this would be 'too small' of an answer, the Pope then urged reading the presentation of Cardinal Schönborn, calling Schönborn a 'great theologian who knows the doctrine of the Church.'  'In that presentation your question will have the answer,' the pope concluded."

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/pope-says-schonborn-interpretation-on-communion-for-remarried-is-the-final

2. Cardinal Schonborn said the following:

"It is obvious that this is an act of the magisterium: It is an apostolic exhortation. It is clear that the pope is exercising here his role of pastor, of master and teacher of the faith, after having benefited from the consultation of the two synods. I have no doubt that it must be said that this is a pontifical document of great quality, an authentic teaching of sacra doctrina, which leads us back to the contemporary relevance of the Word of God."

https://cnsblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/07/the-teaching-authority-of-amoris-laetitia/

So the Pope says that AL contains a change in sacramental discipline and directs individuals to Cardinal Schonborn who says it's magisterial, "an authentic teaching of sacra doctrina" but despite this some are still able to conclude something completely to the contrary.

All of this reminds me of an episode of the Simpsons years ago.  Homer, trying to one up Flanders, has a BBQ with this beautiful pig, but the pig is on a cart with wheels and the cart ends up rolling away with the pig.  The pig goes through one dirty place after another with Homer and Bart chasing behind and Homer desperately maintaining "it's still good, it's still good." 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MWvevkE0kAI

The only difference is that at least Homer finally accepted the reality of the situation and gave up.  When will AL deniers accept the truth?  Perhaps when pigs fly. ;)

Did you really just make a  comparison between a pig getting dirty in a cartoon and RC pastoral guidelines about the reception of the Eucharist (among others)? Strange sense of humor...
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 05:49:37 AM by Lepanto »

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #80 on: February 12, 2017, 07:53:27 AM »
Well, what's the big deal if it's just an unnecessary and irrelevant document to be ignored as you say?  But no, my point was about Homer's inability to accept the truth despite the reality of the situation.  I mean the pope himself says it's a change in sacramental discipline for the divorced and remarried.  He refers further discussions to Cardinal Schonborn who calls it sacred doctrine.  The bishops conferences of two countries, specifically citing Francis and Amoris Laetitia, have begun to allow communion for the divorced and remarried and Francis has not corrected them.  Four Cardinals initially privately then publicly submit their "dubia" on AL to Francis - seemingly putting a lot on the line for an unnecessary and irrelevant document they really should just ignore - and Francis has refused to respond.  I mean really what more do you need?  Fill in the blank.  If Francis said or did ___________ I would accept the reality of the situation. 

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #81 on: February 12, 2017, 08:19:36 AM »
I'm sure the fine priests of the British ordinariate won't tell Petros anything different from what Lepanto and I have written.

Quote
Papal infallibility is a tough pill for me to swallow because I don't know which Papal statements to take seriously and which to reject. Are Jews reprobate? Most Popes say yes, some Popes say no. Is Purgatory a literal fire? Popes disagree. Is the liturgy irreformable? Popes disagree.

Because Popes have fallible opinions. None of the above is doctrine. The Pope's office (vs. the Pope's person) is part of the church's teaching authority, which is about defending our doctrine.

Quote
As for Amoris Laetitia - it is not an infallible document.

Case closed. If you want to leave the church, turning your back on us as apostates or reverting to Protestantism, don't do it because of Amoris Laetitia.

Quote
If I wasn't Orthodox, I would probably not be a Christian.

If I wasn't Catholic, I would probably not be a Christian.

Sedevacantism is possible. Despite the upsetment about Pope Francis, it's not happening now.

Quote
Have you not read what's going on in Malta and Germany?

Episcopal conferences can't define, let alone change (no one can), doctrine. Nor do the Pope's opinions, and Francis knows that. "A few bad churchmen."

The argument thus far: "Catholics are hypocritical about divorce and remarriage so join a faith that's upfront about blessing adultery for pastoral reasons."

Some Catholics are hypocritical about divorce and remarriage. Catholicism isn't.

Quote
In Orthodoxy we also have a huge swath of "go with the flow" anti-Trump, anti-Putin, pro "human rights" and even LGBT modernists - BUT these are not the backbone of the Church and they will die out like a passing fad.

Same here.

Quote
Roman Catholics have a love/hate relationship with the Christian East, and which is at play depends on whether our position is agreeable to them.  So, for example, the same crowd that invokes us as an example of liturgical conservatism/traditionalism in order to combat the myriad insanities found in RC churches on any given day will also self-servingly attack us on our "teaching" on divorce and remarriage...

Yes. Whether it agrees with our doctrine.
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #82 on: February 12, 2017, 08:55:16 AM »
I tell you one thing: You are next. They will get you. Modernism and relativism will not stop when they have destroyed large parts of the RC church. This is a huge thing. Orthodoxy may seem immune to you, but it is not. So better stop feeling superior now.

Why worry so much if you believe that the gates of hell won't prevail over the Church?
Exactly. We have survived two thousand years of attempted heresy, why panic now?

Popes have had wrong opinions before. Nothing new here.

Oh and orthodoxy is still a very strong presence in the Church.
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #83 on: February 12, 2017, 09:26:22 AM »
Quote
I tell you one thing: You are next. They will get you. Modernism and relativism will not stop when they have destroyed large parts of the RC church. This is a huge thing. Orthodoxy may seem immune to you, but it is not. So better stop feeling superior now.

It's already happened: recent Orthodox acceptance of contraception.

Quote
Why worry so much if you believe that the gates of hell won't prevail over the Church?

I'm not worried about the church. I'm worried that one of ours, Petros, is considering committing a grave error by leaving it.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #84 on: February 12, 2017, 09:29:43 AM »
Quote
I tell you one thing: You are next. They will get you. Modernism and relativism will not stop when they have destroyed large parts of the RC church. This is a huge thing. Orthodoxy may seem immune to you, but it is not. So better stop feeling superior now.

It's already happened: recent Orthodox acceptance of contraception.

As has been established many times before, your church accepts contraception too (they call it NFP).
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
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Offline WPM

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #85 on: February 12, 2017, 09:35:56 AM »
Quote
If I wasn't Orthodox, I would probably not be a Christian.

If I wasn't Catholic, I would probably not be a Christian.

Good for you. You're Catholic. Moving on now  :)

Offline The young fogey

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #86 on: February 12, 2017, 09:43:04 AM »
Of course I accept the church's distinction between NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial birth control (available at death merchants Planned Parenthood).

I see one set of basic beliefs, which the Catholic Church, including the Pope, has always been faithful to. (Images are an option, not required by divine law, but church law, discipline, can require them in a rite.) The Orthodox have the first seven councils of our doctrine, so in that sense all their doctrine is true, but that doesn't mean only they have retained the truth, so the Byzantine-centric view required for Western Rite Orthodoxy doesn't interest me in the least.
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #87 on: February 12, 2017, 09:52:37 AM »
Of course I accept the church's distinction between NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial birth control (available at death merchants Planned Parenthood).

Allowing a calendar/ mucus tests to dictate when you have sex is just as artificial as anything else. You are still trying to have sex without conceiving a child. If you can't see how this is a major departure from the tradition you brag about that only speaks to your historical ignorance.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline The young fogey

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #88 on: February 12, 2017, 09:55:00 AM »
I accept the church's distinction. Non-Catholics now often don't. Not news.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #89 on: February 12, 2017, 10:07:25 AM »
I accept the church's distinction. Non-Catholics now often don't. Not news.

It was not "the church's" distinction until the 20th century. In 50 years people like you will be speaking of Amoris Laetitia as "the church's" teaching on divorce and communion. Quite a moving target, "the church's teaching."
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline WPM

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #90 on: February 12, 2017, 10:16:39 AM »
Got an email from someone along the lines of what Lepanto wrote above that Amoris Laetitia is not magisterial.  So I just wanted to point out a couple of things.

1. Pope Francis said that the interpretation of Amoris Laetitia by Cardinal Schonborn of Vienna was the definitive one.

"On the flight returning from Greece, Pope Francis was asked if the Apostolic Exhortation contained a 'change in discipline that governs access to the sacraments' for Catholics who are divorced and remarried. The Pope replied, 'I can say yes, period.' Adding, however, that this would be 'too small' of an answer, the Pope then urged reading the presentation of Cardinal Schönborn, calling Schönborn a 'great theologian who knows the doctrine of the Church.'  'In that presentation your question will have the answer,' the pope concluded."

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/pope-says-schonborn-interpretation-on-communion-for-remarried-is-the-final

2. Cardinal Schonborn said the following:

"It is obvious that this is an act of the magisterium: It is an apostolic exhortation. It is clear that the pope is exercising here his role of pastor, of master and teacher of the faith, after having benefited from the consultation of the two synods. I have no doubt that it must be said that this is a pontifical document of great quality, an authentic teaching of sacra doctrina, which leads us back to the contemporary relevance of the Word of God."

https://cnsblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/07/the-teaching-authority-of-amoris-laetitia/

So the Pope says that AL contains a change in sacramental discipline and directs individuals to Cardinal Schonborn who says it's magisterial, "an authentic teaching of sacra doctrina" but despite this some are still able to conclude something completely to the contrary.

All of this reminds me of an episode of the Simpsons years ago.  Homer, trying to one up Flanders, has a BBQ with this beautiful pig, but the pig is on a cart with wheels and the cart ends up rolling away with the pig.  The pig goes through one dirty place after another with Homer and Bart chasing behind and Homer desperately maintaining "it's still good, it's still good." 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MWvevkE0kAI

The only difference is that at least Homer finally accepted the reality of the situation and gave up.  When will AL deniers accept the truth?  Perhaps when pigs fly. ;)

Did you really just make a  comparison between a pig getting dirty in a cartoon and RC pastoral guidelines about the reception of the Eucharist (among others)? Strange sense of humor...


In the Catholic Church its called the Blessed Sacrament.

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #91 on: February 12, 2017, 12:16:09 PM »
We are digressing. What has NFP to do with anything?
The thread opener, petros22, spoke of a crisis of faith triggered by AL. This is a serious problem.
Imho there is but one reason to leave the RC church: If you are convinced that the church which is truly Christ's body, of which we know that the portae inferi non praevalebunt eam is to be found elsewhere. Then you need to go. But not because of some scrap of paper or because the grass is greener on the other side of the Bosporus or other nonsense.
I do not fully understand why the Orthodox care at all about AL. Why not shrug, think "poor Catholics" and go on with the agenda? It is a purely inner RC issue. But anyway, the thread is here on OC.net and
petros22 asked this question where we are admittedly somewhat at a loss.
We can only ask him not to leave because of a footnote - AL is simply not even worth that much attention.

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #92 on: February 12, 2017, 12:45:00 PM »
Quote
Getting back to Amoris Laetitia, what is at issue is that Catholicism is now sanctioning people who are divorced and CIVILLY remarried to receive communion.  These aren't just adulterers from a Catholic perspective, they are people having sexual relations outside of a sacramental marriage, both of which are mortal sins, who are being allowed to receive communion which when in a state of mortal sin is itself a mortal sin.  Like it or not, the only way Catholicism can square all of this is to do precisely what Orthodoxy is currently doing, bless a second sacramental marriage.
Yeah i was just thinking about that, if an orthodox priest for examples knows that a person is committing adultery and haven't repented, that person will be denied communion.

Amoris Laetitia seems to permit people to commit adultery and then take communion, if i understand this correct, this document have the potential to import the sexual revolution into the vatican.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 12:46:11 PM by Vanhyo »

Offline The young fogey

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #93 on: February 12, 2017, 01:00:44 PM »
We are digressing. What has NFP to do with anything?

The thread opener, petros22, spoke of a crisis of faith triggered by AL. This is a serious problem.

Imho there is but one reason to leave the RC church: If you are convinced that the church which is truly Christ's body, of which we know that the portae inferi non praevalebunt eam , is to be found elsewhere. Then you need to go. But not because of some scrap of paper or because the grass is greener on the other side of the Bosporus or other nonsense.

I do not fully understand why the Orthodox care at all about AL. Why not shrug, think "poor Catholics" and go on with the agenda? It is a purely inner RC issue. But anyway, the thread is here on OC.net and petros22 asked this question where we are admittedly somewhat at a loss.
We can only ask him not to leave because of a footnote - AL is simply not even worth that much attention.

Amen.

Spiritual people often caution against converting in order to run away from something rather than toward something, and against converting generally unless it's for a very serious reason.

Become Orthodox if you're convinced that we apostolic Christians outside the eastern Roman Empire got it wrong sometime around 1,000 years ago, not because of a document one of our people wrote last year or a country's bishops' conference overstepping its authority. Become Anglican (again) if you're convinced the medieval Catholic Church became heretical so Thomas Cranmer and his friends, inspired by the Holy Spirit through their diligent study of scripture and the church fathers, were called to purify the church in England to the pristine condition of the first Christians.

I'll refer you to something the late liberal Catholic Fr. Andrew Greeley wrote: don't leave us because, to give one of his examples, our churchmen sold indulgences to help rebuild St. Peter's Basilica. Leave us because, just like the Orthodox, we teach that God is encountered powerfully in sacred places.
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #94 on: February 12, 2017, 01:09:29 PM »
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

Western Christianity went down the drain many centuries ago from an Eastern perspective.
In what way did the West went down the drain? I do not like their theology that much but they do have Augustine who seems to have been the greatest theologian in history.

Augustine is not a theologian in the Orthodox Church. The theologians are St. Gregory the Theologian and St. Simeon the Theologian. He also is heavily influenced by prophet Mani.

Says someone who has never read Saint Augustine.
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #95 on: February 12, 2017, 01:13:39 PM »
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

Western Christianity went down the drain many centuries ago from an Eastern perspective.
In what way did the West went down the drain? I do not like their theology that much but they do have Augustine who seems to have been the greatest theologian in history.

Augustine is not a theologian in the Orthodox Church. The theologians are St. Gregory the Theologian and St. Simeon the Theologian. He also is heavily influenced by prophet Mani.
Augustine wrote AGAINST manicheism. Mani's influence on Augustine is overrated . Augustine talked a lot about the prodigal son and how that is the human condition. Something he truly jag experienced. He if anybody knew that Only God is Good and that Only God saves.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #96 on: February 12, 2017, 01:18:44 PM »
Quote
The RC teaching is that infallible statements are those by the Ecumenical Councils or those made by the Pope "ex cathedra" and accepted by the Church. [i]Do either apply to the Amoris. Laetitia?[/i]
No. He (Francis) never invoked infallible authority; 8)

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #97 on: February 12, 2017, 01:24:34 PM »
We are digressing. What has NFP to do with anything?
The thread opener, petros22, spoke of a crisis of faith triggered by AL. This is a serious problem.
Imho there is but one reason to leave the RC church: If you are convinced that the church which is truly Christ's body, of which we know that the portae inferi non praevalebunt eam is to be found elsewhere. Then you need to go. But not because of some scrap of paper or because the grass is greener on the other side of the Bosporus or other nonsense.
I do not fully understand why the Orthodox care at all about AL. Why not shrug, think "poor Catholics" and go on with the agenda? It is a purely inner RC issue. But anyway, the thread is here on OC.net and
petros22 asked this question where we are admittedly somewhat at a loss.
We can only ask him not to leave because of a footnote - AL is simply not even worth that much attention.

I really don't care that much about it. I for one support the welcoming of divorcees, etc. into the arms to the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church's previous position was absurd and was intent on erasing its history of a more forgiving nature on divorce and remarriage. The fact of the matter is that 1200 years ago, the Latin West's position on divorce and remarriage was remarkably similar to that of the Christian East's.

The only reason any Orthodox would care today about AL is that it highlights the absurdities of Catholicism and its governing structure. It calls into question its consistency, while it itself claims to be consistent.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #98 on: February 12, 2017, 01:37:33 PM »
We are digressing. What has NFP to do with anything?
The thread opener, petros22, spoke of a crisis of faith triggered by AL. This is a serious problem.
Imho there is but one reason to leave the RC church: If you are convinced that the church which is truly Christ's body, of which we know that the portae inferi non praevalebunt eam is to be found elsewhere. Then you need to go. But not because of some scrap of paper or because the grass is greener on the other side of the Bosporus or other nonsense.
I do not fully understand why the Orthodox care at all about AL. Why not shrug, think "poor Catholics" and go on with the agenda? It is a purely inner RC issue. But anyway, the thread is here on OC.net and
petros22 asked this question where we are admittedly somewhat at a loss.
We can only ask him not to leave because of a footnote - AL is simply not even worth that much attention.

If Rome continues to degenerate, then Rome might return to Holy Mother Church. That might be why we care.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #99 on: February 12, 2017, 01:39:24 PM »
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

Western Christianity went down the drain many centuries ago from an Eastern perspective.
In what way did the West went down the drain? I do not like their theology that much but they do have Augustine who seems to have been the greatest theologian in history.

Augustine is not a theologian in the Orthodox Church. The theologians are St. Gregory the Theologian and St. Simeon the Theologian. He also is heavily influenced by prophet Mani.

Says someone who has never read Saint Augustine.

lol You seem to know a lot about me. I've read Augustine.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #100 on: February 12, 2017, 01:41:35 PM »
We are digressing. What has NFP to do with anything?
The thread opener, petros22, spoke of a crisis of faith triggered by AL. This is a serious problem.
Imho there is but one reason to leave the RC church: If you are convinced that the church which is truly Christ's body, of which we know that the portae inferi non praevalebunt eam is to be found elsewhere. Then you need to go. But not because of some scrap of paper or because the grass is greener on the other side of the Bosporus or other nonsense.
I do not fully understand why the Orthodox care at all about AL. Why not shrug, think "poor Catholics" and go on with the agenda? It is a purely inner RC issue. But anyway, the thread is here on OC.net and
petros22 asked this question where we are admittedly somewhat at a loss.
We can only ask him not to leave because of a footnote - AL is simply not even worth that much attention.

I really don't care that much about it. I for one support the welcoming of divorcees, etc. into the arms to the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church's previous position was absurd and was intent on erasing its history of a more forgiving nature on divorce and remarriage. The fact of the matter is that 1200 years ago, the Latin West's position on divorce and remarriage was remarkably similar to that of the Christian East's.

The only reason any Orthodox would care today about AL is that it highlights the absurdities of Catholicism and its governing structure. It calls into question its consistency, while it itself claims to be consistent.

And, we have a winner.
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #101 on: February 12, 2017, 01:43:18 PM »
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

Western Christianity went down the drain many centuries ago from an Eastern perspective.
In what way did the West went down the drain? I do not like their theology that much but they do have Augustine who seems to have been the greatest theologian in history.

Augustine is not a theologian in the Orthodox Church. The theologians are St. Gregory the Theologian and St. Simeon the Theologian. He also is heavily influenced by prophet Mani.

Says someone who has never read Saint Augustine.

lol You seem to know a lot about me. I've read Augustine.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on the status of Saint Augustine.
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #102 on: February 12, 2017, 01:47:39 PM »
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

Western Christianity went down the drain many centuries ago from an Eastern perspective.
In what way did the West went down the drain? I do not like their theology that much but they do have Augustine who seems to have been the greatest theologian in history.

Augustine is not a theologian in the Orthodox Church. The theologians are St. Gregory the Theologian and St. Simeon the Theologian. He also is heavily influenced by prophet Mani.

Stop it. You're embarrassing yourself.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Online beebert

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #103 on: February 12, 2017, 02:13:30 PM »
Augustine was the greatest theologian. He is by the way very different from Luther and Calvin. He is a greater psychological genius than any other theologian and his insights on the relation between freedom and grace and the human condition before and after salvation is spot on. That is should be considered as just a fact.

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #104 on: February 12, 2017, 02:30:58 PM »
Augustine was the greatest theologian. He is by the way very different from Luther and Calvin. He is a greater psychological genius than any other theologian and his insights on the relation between freedom and grace and the human condition before and after salvation is spot on. That is should be considered as just a fact.

Augustine's conception of grace and free will is actually pretty wretched. I much prefer Saint John Cassian's formulation.
"What I have shown you is reality. What you remember, that is the illusion." - Sephiroth from Final Fantasy VII

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Offline WPM

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #105 on: February 12, 2017, 02:33:17 PM »
But isn't the Online Internet a better option? ...

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #106 on: February 12, 2017, 02:40:28 PM »
To the  "High Elder" who is "Orthodox and Postpositivist" :)

You guys are on the losing side in the battle as the fiasco in Crete showed last year. Nevermind you can always join the Unitarians, or perhaps   the ever-increasing in size (!)  Parisian Exarchate of post-phenomenologists ? (be sure to buy a polo-neck and copy of Zizek)

Yes we all know about the thirty years war so you don't need to be patronising, it just ain't Christian mate :)

Ilyin


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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #107 on: February 12, 2017, 02:42:19 PM »
Augustine was the greatest theologian. He is by the way very different from Luther and Calvin. He is a greater psychological genius than any other theologian and his insights on the relation between freedom and grace and the human condition before and after salvation is spot on. That is should be considered as just a fact.

Augustine's conception of grace and free will is actually pretty wretched. I much prefer Saint John Cassian's formulation.
what was his formulation?

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #108 on: February 12, 2017, 02:42:37 PM »
But isn't the Online Internet a better option? ...
what?

Offline Ilyin

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #109 on: February 12, 2017, 02:52:31 PM »
interesting article here, should be read by a mainstream Roman Catholic:

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/issues/february-10th-2017/pope-franciss-traditionalists/

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #110 on: February 12, 2017, 02:55:38 PM »
I really don't care that much about it. I for one support the welcoming of divorcees,
This didn't sound very well
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 02:55:49 PM by Vanhyo »

Offline J Michael

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #111 on: February 12, 2017, 02:58:06 PM »
I really don't care that much about it. I for one support the welcoming of divorcees,
This didn't sound very well

Why not?
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #112 on: February 12, 2017, 04:18:14 PM »
To the  "High Elder" who is "Orthodox and Postpositivist" :)

You guys are on the losing side in the battle as the fiasco in Crete showed last year. Nevermind you can always join the Unitarians, or perhaps   the ever-increasing in size (!)  Parisian Exarchate of post-phenomenologists ? (be sure to buy a polo-neck and copy of Zizek)

Yes we all know about the thirty years war so you don't need to be patronising, it just ain't Christian mate :)

Ilyin

It's intuitively obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. In what world is a postpositivist even related to Zizek or phenomenology? The answer is - in no world.

I for one do not support the Council of Crete and am very critical of the Patriarchate of Constantinople and its occasional proclamations of a very...let's say a peculiar ecclesiology. Holding this position does not therefore demand that I sell my soul down the river as a political shill.

In short, you've done nothing more than prove my point, which is that you are not actually all that well-principled. You're just a naïve reactionary contrarian.
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #113 on: February 12, 2017, 04:21:26 PM »
To the  "High Elder" who is "Orthodox and Postpositivist" :)

You guys are on the losing side in the battle as the fiasco in Crete showed last year. Nevermind you can always join the Unitarians, or perhaps   the ever-increasing in size (!)  Parisian Exarchate of post-phenomenologists ? (be sure to buy a polo-neck and copy of Zizek)

Yes we all know about the thirty years war so you don't need to be patronising, it just ain't Christian mate :)

Ilyin

What?
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #114 on: February 12, 2017, 04:22:03 PM »
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

Western Christianity went down the drain many centuries ago from an Eastern perspective.
In what way did the West went down the drain? I do not like their theology that much but they do have Augustine who seems to have been the greatest theologian in history.

Augustine is not a theologian in the Orthodox Church. The theologians are St. Gregory the Theologian and St. Simeon the Theologian. He also is heavily influenced by prophet Mani.

Stop it. You're embarrassing yourself.

That hasn't stopped him before.
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #115 on: February 12, 2017, 04:23:41 PM »
Augustine was the greatest theologian. He is by the way very different from Luther and Calvin. He is a greater psychological genius than any other theologian and his insights on the relation between freedom and grace and the human condition before and after salvation is spot on. That is should be considered as just a fact.

Augustine's conception of grace and free will is actually pretty wretched. I much prefer Saint John Cassian's formulation.
what was his formulation?

As I understand it, the will of a human being was not so damaged to the extent that he or she was totally depraved. Rather it was damaged by the Fall to the extent that it inclines humanity towards sin. Whether or not God initiates the first encounter of grace, therefore, is somewhat of a moot question. Cassian suspected the answer varied from individual to individual. At the end of the day, however, he believed that the human will acts alongside the divine will, just as it occurs in the person of Christ. While lacking the term, one could say that he professed some form of deification or theosis, if you will. This is best exemplified in his analogy of the farmer. The farmer can plow the fields and plant the seeds, but without the rain it is all in vain. That is how Cassian conceives of salvation.
"What I have shown you is reality. What you remember, that is the illusion." - Sephiroth from Final Fantasy VII

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #116 on: February 12, 2017, 04:24:40 PM »
Spiritual people often caution against converting in order to run away from something rather than toward something, and against converting generally unless it's for a very serious reason.

Become Orthodox if you're convinced that we apostolic Christians outside the eastern Roman Empire got it wrong sometime around 1,000 years ago, not because of a document one of our people wrote last year or a country's bishops' conference overstepping its authority. Become Anglican (again) if you're convinced the medieval Catholic Church became heretical so Thomas Cranmer and his friends, inspired by the Holy Spirit through their diligent study of scripture and the church fathers, were called to purify the church in England to the pristine condition of the first Christians.

TYF is right for once. Although I wouldn't have phrased it quite like that.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 04:24:48 PM by Cyrillic »
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #117 on: February 12, 2017, 04:29:48 PM »
Of course I accept the church's distinction between NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial birth control (available at death merchants Planned Parenthood).

Allowing a calendar/ mucus tests to dictate when you have sex is just as artificial as anything else. You are still trying to have sex without conceiving a child. If you can't see how this is a major departure from the tradition you brag about that only speaks to your historical ignorance.

Too bad Post of the Month is no more. This would have been a worthy candidate.
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #118 on: February 12, 2017, 04:30:51 PM »
Augustine was the greatest theologian. He is by the way very different from Luther and Calvin. He is a greater psychological genius than any other theologian and his insights on the relation between freedom and grace and the human condition before and after salvation is spot on. That is should be considered as just a fact.

Augustine's conception of grace and free will is actually pretty wretched. I much prefer Saint John Cassian's formulation.
what was his formulation?

As I understand it, the will of a human being was not so damaged to the extent that he or she was totally depraved. Rather it was damaged by the Fall to the extent that it inclines humanity towards sin. Whether or not God initiates the first encounter of grace, therefore, is somewhat of a moot question. Cassian suspected the answer varied from individual to individual. At the end of the day, however, he believed that the human will acts alongside the divine will, just as it occurs in the person of Christ. While lacking the term, one could say that he professed some form of deification or theosis, if you will. This is best exemplified in his analogy of the farmer. The farmer can plow the fields and plant the seeds, but without the rain it is all in vain. That is how Cassian conceives of salvation.
I agree with this view. Man has to respond freely to God's call. But it can't be the othar way around right, that man calls God and God saves man. God always makes the first move right?

Offline WPM

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #119 on: February 12, 2017, 05:03:35 PM »

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #120 on: February 13, 2017, 05:55:25 PM »
Augustine was the greatest theologian. He is by the way very different from Luther and Calvin. He is a greater psychological genius than any other theologian and his insights on the relation between freedom and grace and the human condition before and after salvation is spot on. That is should be considered as just a fact.

You should add to your patristic reading St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Irenaeus, St. Theophilus of Antioch, St. Hippolytus of Rome, St. Clement of Alexandria, Origen, St. Athanasius, the Macarian homilies, St. Ephraim the Syrian, the three Cappadocian fathers, St. John Chrysostom, St. Cyril of Jerusalem, and St. Cyril of Alexandria

Then, you can come back and tell us which is the greatest theological genius.  Don't tell us who you think is the best theologian until you read all these men, who also received similar praise by many others as "greatest theologians".
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #121 on: February 13, 2017, 06:10:22 PM »
Of course I accept the church's distinction between NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial birth control (available at death merchants Planned Parenthood).

Allowing a calendar/ mucus tests to dictate when you have sex is just as artificial as anything else. You are still trying to have sex without conceiving a child. If you can't see how this is a major departure from the tradition you brag about that only speaks to your historical ignorance.

Too bad Post of the Month is no more. This would have been a worthy candidate.

That's why I created the edifying posts thread.

And yea, I think Iconodule makes a slam dunk point that Roman Catholics seem to conveniently ignore.  If they were consistent as they say, they would condemn BOTH "NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial non-abortive birth control (available at your nearest grocery shop)."
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Online beebert

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #122 on: February 13, 2017, 06:19:56 PM »
Augustine was the greatest theologian. He is by the way very different from Luther and Calvin. He is a greater psychological genius than any other theologian and his insights on the relation between freedom and grace and the human condition before and after salvation is spot on. That is should be considered as just a fact.

You should add to your patristic reading St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Irenaeus, St. Theophilus of Antioch, St. Hippolytus of Rome, St. Clement of Alexandria, Origen, St. Athanasius, the Macarian homilies, St. Ephraim the Syrian, the three Cappadocian fathers, St. John Chrysostom, St. Cyril of Jerusalem, and St. Cyril of Alexandria

Then, you can come back and tell us which is the greatest theological genius.  Don't tell us who you think is the best theologian until you read all these men, who also received similar praise by many others as "greatest theologians".
Okay you are right. I love Origen and St Isaac the Syrian.  I know only little about the others and I will make sure to get to know more about them. But Augustine still has his place among the greatest.

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #123 on: February 14, 2017, 03:16:53 AM »
Of course I accept the church's distinction between NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial birth control (available at death merchants Planned Parenthood).

Allowing a calendar/ mucus tests to dictate when you have sex is just as artificial as anything else. You are still trying to have sex without conceiving a child. If you can't see how this is a major departure from the tradition you brag about that only speaks to your historical ignorance.

Too bad Post of the Month is no more. This would have been a worthy candidate.

That's why I created the edifying posts thread.

And yea, I think Iconodule makes a slam dunk point that Roman Catholics seem to conveniently ignore.  If they were consistent as they say, they would condemn BOTH "NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial non-abortive birth control (available at your nearest grocery shop)."
Why is it that NFP is a source of so many discussions on this and other Christian boards?
This is not a question of consistency but of economy. Nobody ever says that NFP is the ideal, the best possible thing under the sun. It is a compromise which can work for any couple. Now, if you know a better solution, please go ahead and share it!


« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 03:29:22 AM by Lepanto »

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #124 on: February 14, 2017, 03:29:35 AM »
Of course I accept the church's distinction between NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial birth control (available at death merchants Planned Parenthood).

Allowing a calendar/ mucus tests to dictate when you have sex is just as artificial as anything else. You are still trying to have sex without conceiving a child. If you can't see how this is a major departure from the tradition you brag about that only speaks to your historical ignorance.

Too bad Post of the Month is no more. This would have been a worthy candidate.

That's why I created the edifying posts thread.

And yea, I think Iconodule makes a slam dunk point that Roman Catholics seem to conveniently ignore.  If they were consistent as they say, they would condemn BOTH "NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial non-abortive birth control (available at your nearest grocery shop)."
Why is it that NFP is a source of so many discussions on this and other Christian boards?
This is not a question of consistency but of economy. Nobody ever says that NFP is the ideal, the best possible thing under the sun. It is a compromise which can work for any couple. Now, if you know a better solution, go ahead and share it!

Pull-out, condoms, non-abortive birth control. The list goes on and on. NFP is garbage btw.
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #125 on: February 14, 2017, 04:17:55 AM »
Of course I accept the church's distinction between NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial birth control (available at death merchants Planned Parenthood).

Allowing a calendar/ mucus tests to dictate when you have sex is just as artificial as anything else. You are still trying to have sex without conceiving a child. If you can't see how this is a major departure from the tradition you brag about that only speaks to your historical ignorance.

Too bad Post of the Month is no more. This would have been a worthy candidate.

That's why I created the edifying posts thread.

And yea, I think Iconodule makes a slam dunk point that Roman Catholics seem to conveniently ignore.  If they were consistent as they say, they would condemn BOTH "NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial non-abortive birth control (available at your nearest grocery shop)."
Why is it that NFP is a source of so many discussions on this and other Christian boards?
This is not a question of consistency but of economy. Nobody ever says that NFP is the ideal, the best possible thing under the sun. It is a compromise which can work for any couple. Now, if you know a better solution, go ahead and share it!

Pull-out, condoms, non-abortive birth control. The list goes on and on. NFP is garbage btw.

After reading this several times, it still does not make any sense to me.
Can you explain again?

Offline byhisgrace

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #126 on: February 14, 2017, 11:00:38 AM »
Of course I accept the church's distinction between NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial birth control (available at death merchants Planned Parenthood).

Allowing a calendar/ mucus tests to dictate when you have sex is just as artificial as anything else. You are still trying to have sex without conceiving a child. If you can't see how this is a major departure from the tradition you brag about that only speaks to your historical ignorance.

Too bad Post of the Month is no more. This would have been a worthy candidate.

That's why I created the edifying posts thread.

And yea, I think Iconodule makes a slam dunk point that Roman Catholics seem to conveniently ignore.  If they were consistent as they say, they would condemn BOTH "NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial non-abortive birth control (available at your nearest grocery shop)."
Why is it that NFP is a source of so many discussions on this and other Christian boards?
This is not a question of consistency but of economy. Nobody ever says that NFP is the ideal, the best possible thing under the sun. It is a compromise which can work for any couple. Now, if you know a better solution, please go ahead and share it!
I don't condemn NFP. It's just not any more right or wrong than any other non-abortive methods of contraception.
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #127 on: February 14, 2017, 11:11:05 AM »
Of course I accept the church's distinction between NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial birth control (available at death merchants Planned Parenthood).

Allowing a calendar/ mucus tests to dictate when you have sex is just as artificial as anything else. You are still trying to have sex without conceiving a child. If you can't see how this is a major departure from the tradition you brag about that only speaks to your historical ignorance.

Too bad Post of the Month is no more. This would have been a worthy candidate.

That's why I created the edifying posts thread.

And yea, I think Iconodule makes a slam dunk point that Roman Catholics seem to conveniently ignore.  If they were consistent as they say, they would condemn BOTH "NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial non-abortive birth control (available at your nearest grocery shop)."
Why is it that NFP is a source of so many discussions on this and other Christian boards?
This is not a question of consistency but of economy. Nobody ever says that NFP is the ideal, the best possible thing under the sun. It is a compromise which can work for any couple. Now, if you know a better solution, please go ahead and share it!

Oh, now we think economia is appropriate when it comes to contraception.


« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 11:11:20 AM by Cyrillic »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #128 on: February 14, 2017, 11:30:16 AM »
Of course I accept the church's distinction between NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial birth control (available at death merchants Planned Parenthood).

Allowing a calendar/ mucus tests to dictate when you have sex is just as artificial as anything else. You are still trying to have sex without conceiving a child. If you can't see how this is a major departure from the tradition you brag about that only speaks to your historical ignorance.

Too bad Post of the Month is no more. This would have been a worthy candidate.

That's why I created the edifying posts thread.

And yea, I think Iconodule makes a slam dunk point that Roman Catholics seem to conveniently ignore.  If they were consistent as they say, they would condemn BOTH "NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial non-abortive birth control (available at your nearest grocery shop)."
Why is it that NFP is a source of so many discussions on this and other Christian boards?

Because Catholics continually flaunt their teaching on birth control as proof of their fidelity to ancient tradition. That is borne out on this very thread- I would point out that it was your co-religionist Young Fogey who introduced the topic of contraception as an area in which modernism had penetrated the Orthodox Church (but not, he thinks, his own church):

Quote
I tell you one thing: You are next. They will get you. Modernism and relativism will not stop when they have destroyed large parts of the RC church. This is a huge thing. Orthodoxy may seem immune to you, but it is not. So better stop feeling superior now.

It's already happened: recent Orthodox acceptance of contraception.

As long as you keep raising this point, I will not fail to point out the hypocrisy of your position in accepting NFP. If you're tired of hearing about NFP, tell your fellow Catholics to stop affecting superiority because of your position on contraception.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #129 on: February 14, 2017, 11:41:32 AM »
Of course I accept the church's distinction between NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial birth control (available at death merchants Planned Parenthood).

Allowing a calendar/ mucus tests to dictate when you have sex is just as artificial as anything else. You are still trying to have sex without conceiving a child. If you can't see how this is a major departure from the tradition you brag about that only speaks to your historical ignorance.

Too bad Post of the Month is no more. This would have been a worthy candidate.

That's why I created the edifying posts thread.

And yea, I think Iconodule makes a slam dunk point that Roman Catholics seem to conveniently ignore.  If they were consistent as they say, they would condemn BOTH "NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial non-abortive birth control (available at your nearest grocery shop)."
Why is it that NFP is a source of so many discussions on this and other Christian boards?
This is not a question of consistency but of economy. Nobody ever says that NFP is the ideal, the best possible thing under the sun. It is a compromise which can work for any couple. Now, if you know a better solution, please go ahead and share it!

Oh, now we think economia is appropriate when it comes to contraception.
Is it not? But it is when it comes to second and third marriages?

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #130 on: February 14, 2017, 11:48:17 AM »
The ancient Western Catholic tradition says the the only reason for sexual relations is to procreate.  When you allow "NFP" for "economia", you actually intend to break this rule.  Hence the hypocrisy.
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #131 on: February 14, 2017, 12:09:33 PM »
Of course I accept the church's distinction between NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial birth control (available at death merchants Planned Parenthood).

Allowing a calendar/ mucus tests to dictate when you have sex is just as artificial as anything else. You are still trying to have sex without conceiving a child. If you can't see how this is a major departure from the tradition you brag about that only speaks to your historical ignorance.

Too bad Post of the Month is no more. This would have been a worthy candidate.

That's why I created the edifying posts thread.

And yea, I think Iconodule makes a slam dunk point that Roman Catholics seem to conveniently ignore.  If they were consistent as they say, they would condemn BOTH "NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial non-abortive birth control (available at your nearest grocery shop)."
Why is it that NFP is a source of so many discussions on this and other Christian boards?
This is not a question of consistency but of economy. Nobody ever says that NFP is the ideal, the best possible thing under the sun. It is a compromise which can work for any couple. Now, if you know a better solution, please go ahead and share it!

Oh, now we think economia is appropriate when it comes to contraception.
Is it not? But it is when it comes to second and third marriages?

If you want to justify NFP on the basis of economy, I for one won't object to that, but by the same token you cannot then turn around and condemn us for the Orthodox Church's economy on contraception and marriage.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #132 on: February 14, 2017, 12:23:43 PM »
The ancient Western Catholic tradition says the the only reason for sexual relations is to procreate.

As juxtaposed to what element in the Eastern tradition?
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #133 on: February 14, 2017, 12:40:37 PM »
Of course I accept the church's distinction between NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial birth control (available at death merchants Planned Parenthood).

Allowing a calendar/ mucus tests to dictate when you have sex is just as artificial as anything else. You are still trying to have sex without conceiving a child. If you can't see how this is a major departure from the tradition you brag about that only speaks to your historical ignorance.

Too bad Post of the Month is no more. This would have been a worthy candidate.

That's why I created the edifying posts thread.

And yea, I think Iconodule makes a slam dunk point that Roman Catholics seem to conveniently ignore.  If they were consistent as they say, they would condemn BOTH "NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial non-abortive birth control (available at your nearest grocery shop)."
Why is it that NFP is a source of so many discussions on this and other Christian boards?
This is not a question of consistency but of economy. Nobody ever says that NFP is the ideal, the best possible thing under the sun. It is a compromise which can work for any couple. Now, if you know a better solution, please go ahead and share it!

Oh, now we think economia is appropriate when it comes to contraception.
Is it not? But it is when it comes to second and third marriages?

If you want to justify NFP on the basis of economy, I for one won't object to that, but by the same token you cannot then turn around and condemn us for the Orthodox Church's economy on contraception and marriage.

I don't want to condemn anyone. I am pretty new to this forum, do not want to get banned and I have no idea which disagreements there were in the past with other RCs. As a matter of fact, I already regret replying in this thread. It is leading just to ever more polemics and bad feelings, I fear.
In the end, I think matters such as NFP are strictly private stuff which couples should resolve on their own or with the help of a spiritual father, if needed, and leave it at that. This is I guess something we can agree on. I am sick of others ridiculing Catholics for NFP.

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #134 on: February 14, 2017, 12:42:42 PM »
The ancient Western Catholic tradition says the the only reason for sexual relations is to procreate.

As juxtaposed to what element in the Eastern tradition?
well, a few fathers like St. John Chrysostom seems to be open to the idea that sexual relations is much more than just procreation, but a mingled unity of both the husband and wife.  I don't deny there is a written majority from the East that seems to agree with the West, but the fact is there is a sense that in the West, sex is seen somewhat as a propagation of sin, whereas in the East, it is not seen that way.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 12:45:12 PM by minasoliman »
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #135 on: February 14, 2017, 12:45:46 PM »
Of course I accept the church's distinction between NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial birth control (available at death merchants Planned Parenthood).

Allowing a calendar/ mucus tests to dictate when you have sex is just as artificial as anything else. You are still trying to have sex without conceiving a child. If you can't see how this is a major departure from the tradition you brag about that only speaks to your historical ignorance.

Too bad Post of the Month is no more. This would have been a worthy candidate.

That's why I created the edifying posts thread.

And yea, I think Iconodule makes a slam dunk point that Roman Catholics seem to conveniently ignore.  If they were consistent as they say, they would condemn BOTH "NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial non-abortive birth control (available at your nearest grocery shop)."
Why is it that NFP is a source of so many discussions on this and other Christian boards?
This is not a question of consistency but of economy. Nobody ever says that NFP is the ideal, the best possible thing under the sun. It is a compromise which can work for any couple. Now, if you know a better solution, please go ahead and share it!

Oh, now we think economia is appropriate when it comes to contraception.
Is it not? But it is when it comes to second and third marriages?

If you want to justify NFP on the basis of economy, I for one won't object to that, but by the same token you cannot then turn around and condemn us for the Orthodox Church's economy on contraception and marriage.

I don't want to condemn anyone. I am pretty new to this forum, do not want to get banned and I have no idea which disagreements there were in the past with other RCs. As a matter of fact, I already regret replying in this thread. It is leading just to ever more polemics and bad feelings, I fear.
In the end, I think matters such as NFP are strictly private stuff which couples should resolve on their own or with the help of a spiritual father, if needed, and leave it at that. This is I guess something we can agree on. I am sick of others ridiculing Catholics for NFP.

Like I said, it was Young Fogey (a Catholic) who raised the issue on this thread. Young Fogey has an established habit of coming onto the forum, making some cheap shots about contraception, and then disappearing after his hypocrisy is revealed, only to resurface the next year with the same cheap shots.

If you're sick of being ridiculed for NFP, I suggest you take it up with Young Fogey and others like him who brandish modern Catholic teaching on contraception as an emblem of Catholic superiority.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 12:49:27 PM by Iconodule »
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #136 on: February 14, 2017, 12:48:19 PM »
Of course I accept the church's distinction between NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial birth control (available at death merchants Planned Parenthood).

Allowing a calendar/ mucus tests to dictate when you have sex is just as artificial as anything else. You are still trying to have sex without conceiving a child. If you can't see how this is a major departure from the tradition you brag about that only speaks to your historical ignorance.

Too bad Post of the Month is no more. This would have been a worthy candidate.

That's why I created the edifying posts thread.

And yea, I think Iconodule makes a slam dunk point that Roman Catholics seem to conveniently ignore.  If they were consistent as they say, they would condemn BOTH "NFP (periodic abstinence) and artificial non-abortive birth control (available at your nearest grocery shop)."
Why is it that NFP is a source of so many discussions on this and other Christian boards?
This is not a question of consistency but of economy. Nobody ever says that NFP is the ideal, the best possible thing under the sun. It is a compromise which can work for any couple. Now, if you know a better solution, please go ahead and share it!

Oh, now we think economia is appropriate when it comes to contraception.
Is it not? But it is when it comes to second and third marriages?

If you want to justify NFP on the basis of economy, I for one won't object to that, but by the same token you cannot then turn around and condemn us for the Orthodox Church's economy on contraception and marriage.

I don't want to condemn anyone. I am pretty new to this forum, do not want to get banned and I have no idea which disagreements there were in the past with other RCs. As a matter of fact, I already regret replying in this thread. It is leading just to ever more polemics and bad feelings, I fear.
In the end, I think matters such as NFP are strictly private stuff which couples should resolve on their own or with the help of a spiritual father, if needed, and leave it at that. This is I guess something we can agree on. I am sick of others ridiculing Catholics for NFP.

And I'm sick of Catholics being hypocritically holier than thou in regards sexual ethics and ridicule Orthodox for their rules of economia.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 12:49:15 PM by minasoliman »
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If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline tcolon90

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #137 on: February 14, 2017, 12:54:07 PM »
It seems there is some Schadenfreude .
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

I derive no pleasure from observing what the Roman Catholics are going through; I believe it is an inevitable consequence of their theological system (whether or not the current controversy is more or less serious than previous controversies). 

Roman Catholics believe that the Popes are heads of the Church on earth, that they have universal, immediate, ordinary, personal jurisdiction over all Catholics, that they are infallible when speaking ex cathedra, that even when not speaking so their teachings and rulings are to be given pious assent by the faithful, etc.  Yet, when a Pope teaches something, the people squirm according to their own predilections. 

So, for example, when Pope John Paul II authoritatively taught that women couldn't be ordained to the priesthood, those who supported the prohibition of women's ordination loved and supported the exercise of papal authority, while those who didn't went on about how it was not (clearly) an infallible definition so perhaps another Pope could rule differently, that it only spoke of priests and not deacons, etc. 

A similar thing is happening with AL.  Those who support the proposal to admit divorced and remarried people to Communion are happy to refer to AL as a magisterial document, highlight the Pope's authority and jurisdiction, begin to implement it, and punish those who do not.  Those who oppose the proposal claim that AL is not magisterial, is not a teaching, that Popes are not always infallible, that some should be opposed and formally corrected, etc.  Often, those who are ultramontane on one issue are left-of-Anglican on others. 

Roman Catholics have a love/hate relationship with the Christian East, and which is at play depends on whether our position is agreeable to them.  So, for example, the same crowd that invokes us as an example of liturgical conservatism/traditionalism in order to combat the myriad insanities found in RC churches on any given day will also self-servingly attack us on our "teaching" on divorce and remarriage (which even their own Cardinals do not really understand because they insist on interpreting it through their own theological system rather than learning ours) because it makes them feel good to believe they have not "sold out".   

I don't see "laetitia" in any of this.  What I see is a lot of confusion among people who are united by a belief in the Pope's authority but only put it into practice when the Pope agrees with them.  And then their apologists wish to impose their theological system on us as an element of apostolic faith by pointing to our alleged confusion, lack of authority, doctrinal deviations, etc. because we don't have that belief.

On the one hand, I am sad for them.  On the other hand, they seem to prefer their system as is and wish for us to submit to it: while I wish them well, we could never do such a thing because then we, like them, would be abandoning the Church of Christ and its divinely-revealed faith for a religion of mere man, by mere man, for mere man, as mere man.   

The RC doesn't allow remarried or divorced individuals to dine with Christ ? I need clarification. Is this before a confession and penance or even after? Is this seen as in unforgivable sin to them?
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #138 on: February 14, 2017, 12:57:30 PM »
It seems there is some Schadenfreude .
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

I derive no pleasure from observing what the Roman Catholics are going through; I believe it is an inevitable consequence of their theological system (whether or not the current controversy is more or less serious than previous controversies). 

Roman Catholics believe that the Popes are heads of the Church on earth, that they have universal, immediate, ordinary, personal jurisdiction over all Catholics, that they are infallible when speaking ex cathedra, that even when not speaking so their teachings and rulings are to be given pious assent by the faithful, etc.  Yet, when a Pope teaches something, the people squirm according to their own predilections. 

So, for example, when Pope John Paul II authoritatively taught that women couldn't be ordained to the priesthood, those who supported the prohibition of women's ordination loved and supported the exercise of papal authority, while those who didn't went on about how it was not (clearly) an infallible definition so perhaps another Pope could rule differently, that it only spoke of priests and not deacons, etc. 

A similar thing is happening with AL.  Those who support the proposal to admit divorced and remarried people to Communion are happy to refer to AL as a magisterial document, highlight the Pope's authority and jurisdiction, begin to implement it, and punish those who do not.  Those who oppose the proposal claim that AL is not magisterial, is not a teaching, that Popes are not always infallible, that some should be opposed and formally corrected, etc.  Often, those who are ultramontane on one issue are left-of-Anglican on others. 

Roman Catholics have a love/hate relationship with the Christian East, and which is at play depends on whether our position is agreeable to them.  So, for example, the same crowd that invokes us as an example of liturgical conservatism/traditionalism in order to combat the myriad insanities found in RC churches on any given day will also self-servingly attack us on our "teaching" on divorce and remarriage (which even their own Cardinals do not really understand because they insist on interpreting it through their own theological system rather than learning ours) because it makes them feel good to believe they have not "sold out".   

I don't see "laetitia" in any of this.  What I see is a lot of confusion among people who are united by a belief in the Pope's authority but only put it into practice when the Pope agrees with them.  And then their apologists wish to impose their theological system on us as an element of apostolic faith by pointing to our alleged confusion, lack of authority, doctrinal deviations, etc. because we don't have that belief.

On the one hand, I am sad for them.  On the other hand, they seem to prefer their system as is and wish for us to submit to it: while I wish them well, we could never do such a thing because then we, like them, would be abandoning the Church of Christ and its divinely-revealed faith for a religion of mere man, by mere man, for mere man, as mere man.   

The RC doesn't allow remarried or divorced individuals to dine with Christ ? I need clarification. Is this before a confession and penance or even after? Is this seen as in unforgivable sin to them?
Yes it has become that way which is absolutely absurd

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #139 on: February 14, 2017, 01:00:10 PM »
It seems there is some Schadenfreude .
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

I derive no pleasure from observing what the Roman Catholics are going through; I believe it is an inevitable consequence of their theological system (whether or not the current controversy is more or less serious than previous controversies). 

Roman Catholics believe that the Popes are heads of the Church on earth, that they have universal, immediate, ordinary, personal jurisdiction over all Catholics, that they are infallible when speaking ex cathedra, that even when not speaking so their teachings and rulings are to be given pious assent by the faithful, etc.  Yet, when a Pope teaches something, the people squirm according to their own predilections. 

So, for example, when Pope John Paul II authoritatively taught that women couldn't be ordained to the priesthood, those who supported the prohibition of women's ordination loved and supported the exercise of papal authority, while those who didn't went on about how it was not (clearly) an infallible definition so perhaps another Pope could rule differently, that it only spoke of priests and not deacons, etc. 

A similar thing is happening with AL.  Those who support the proposal to admit divorced and remarried people to Communion are happy to refer to AL as a magisterial document, highlight the Pope's authority and jurisdiction, begin to implement it, and punish those who do not.  Those who oppose the proposal claim that AL is not magisterial, is not a teaching, that Popes are not always infallible, that some should be opposed and formally corrected, etc.  Often, those who are ultramontane on one issue are left-of-Anglican on others. 

Roman Catholics have a love/hate relationship with the Christian East, and which is at play depends on whether our position is agreeable to them.  So, for example, the same crowd that invokes us as an example of liturgical conservatism/traditionalism in order to combat the myriad insanities found in RC churches on any given day will also self-servingly attack us on our "teaching" on divorce and remarriage (which even their own Cardinals do not really understand because they insist on interpreting it through their own theological system rather than learning ours) because it makes them feel good to believe they have not "sold out".   

I don't see "laetitia" in any of this.  What I see is a lot of confusion among people who are united by a belief in the Pope's authority but only put it into practice when the Pope agrees with them.  And then their apologists wish to impose their theological system on us as an element of apostolic faith by pointing to our alleged confusion, lack of authority, doctrinal deviations, etc. because we don't have that belief.

On the one hand, I am sad for them.  On the other hand, they seem to prefer their system as is and wish for us to submit to it: while I wish them well, we could never do such a thing because then we, like them, would be abandoning the Church of Christ and its divinely-revealed faith for a religion of mere man, by mere man, for mere man, as mere man.   

The RC doesn't allow remarried or divorced individuals to dine with Christ ? I need clarification. Is this before a confession and penance or even after? Is this seen as in unforgivable sin to them?
Yes it has become that way which is absolutely absurd

Absolutely untrue. There is no such thing as an unforgivable sin. Did anyone actually read AL or at least a summary?

Offline PJ26

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #140 on: February 14, 2017, 01:01:54 PM »
"In the end, I think matters such as NFP are strictly private stuff which couples should resolve on their own or with the help of a spiritual father, if needed, and leave it at that."

I'm curious what other "matters" would you define as being "strictly private stuff which couples should resolve on their own or with the help of a spiritual father."  Because it seems to me that, returning to the original theme of this thread, one could say the same thing about communion for the divorced and civilly remarried.  It's exactly what the church in Germany is saying.  Talk to your pastor, and if he's ok with you receiving communion, go for it.  I don't really see a difference in substance...

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #141 on: February 14, 2017, 01:07:45 PM »
"In the end, I think matters such as NFP are strictly private stuff which couples should resolve on their own or with the help of a spiritual father, if needed, and leave it at that."

I'm curious what other "matters" would you define as being "strictly private stuff which couples should resolve on their own or with the help of a spiritual father."  Because it seems to me that, returning to the original theme of this thread, one could say the same thing about communion for the divorced and civilly remarried.  It's exactly what the church in Germany is saying.  Talk to your pastor, and if he's ok with you receiving communion, go for it.  I don't really see a difference in substance...
Don't tell me about the church in Germany. Cardinal Marx, being one force behind that, happens to be my bishop  :(
I admit that I struggle with this more than a bit.

Offline PJ26

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #142 on: February 14, 2017, 01:13:44 PM »
What is it that you struggle with?

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #143 on: February 14, 2017, 01:26:35 PM »
What is it that you struggle with?
Ah, nevermind. In any case, you as a former trad RC would tell me how you began to have doubts and how swimming the Bosporus (or Moskwa) resolved them all and how you never regretted it.
But, as I stated earlier, there is but one reason to leave the Catholic church.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 01:33:19 PM by Lepanto »

Offline PJ26

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #144 on: February 14, 2017, 01:44:51 PM »
Oh c'mon...what is that you struggle with?

Let me tell you.  I wish Catholicism was right.  I was Catholic all my life.  Played priest as a boy.  Became an altar boy.  Went to seminary.  When that didn't work out I got married to a woman who was nominally Catholic.  Convinced her just how important the faith was.  Went on pilgrimages to Rome, Guadalupe, Fatima, and Lourdes.  My decision to convert almost ended my marriage.  Even going on three years now being Orthodox and it's still raw.  It's awful not going to church together.  Our wedding anniversary falls on a Sunday this year.  She will go to her church and I will go to mine.  We don't have children of our own, but we have two nephews, Catholic, who are like sons to us, approaching their first communion and I can't be their sponsor.  You think I wouldn't love to be proved wrong, even now? "Swimming the Bosporus" has been painful and traumatic causing more problems than it solved.  But, no, in spite of everything I don't regret it, because no matter how much I might wish it to be otherwise, Orthodoxy is right.  Like it or not, accept it or not, it's the truth.  That's all there is to it.

Offline benjohn146

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #145 on: February 14, 2017, 02:14:43 PM »
Oh c'mon...what is that you struggle with?

Let me tell you.  I wish Catholicism was right.  I was Catholic all my life.  Played priest as a boy.  Became an altar boy.  Went to seminary.  When that didn't work out I got married to a woman who was nominally Catholic.  Convinced her just how important the faith was.  Went on pilgrimages to Rome, Guadalupe, Fatima, and Lourdes.  My decision to convert almost ended my marriage.  Even going on three years now being Orthodox and it's still raw.  It's awful not going to church together.  Our wedding anniversary falls on a Sunday this year.  She will go to her church and I will go to mine.  We don't have children of our own, but we have two nephews, Catholic, who are like sons to us, approaching their first communion and I can't be their sponsor.  You think I wouldn't love to be proved wrong, even now? "Swimming the Bosporus" has been painful and traumatic causing more problems than it solved.  But, no, in spite of everything I don't regret it, because no matter how much I might wish it to be otherwise, Orthodoxy is right.  Like it or not, accept it or not, it's the truth.  That's all there is to it.

+1

I was RC too. It wasn't out of conveniences that I've crossed the Bosporus. It was for the love of Truth and Christ Who established His Church and was kept from heresies in what is known as the Orthodox Church. It is for this love of Christ and His Truth that my marriage has collapsed as I do not accept to live like regular folks, but to live the Gospel as the Church and its 2000 years of Holy Wisdom taught us to do.

I cant speak for others, but when I am talking to other converts, no one ever said that it was convenient.

Believe me, no offense intended, but RC is easy and convenient. Orthodoxy is far from being convenient: it is about denying oneself and picking up its Cross daily.
St Makarios, pray for us.

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #146 on: February 14, 2017, 02:29:19 PM »
Oh c'mon...what is that you struggle with?

Let me tell you.  I wish Catholicism was right.  I was Catholic all my life.  Played priest as a boy.  Became an altar boy.  Went to seminary.  When that didn't work out I got married to a woman who was nominally Catholic.  Convinced her just how important the faith was.  Went on pilgrimages to Rome, Guadalupe, Fatima, and Lourdes.  My decision to convert almost ended my marriage.  Even going on three years now being Orthodox and it's still raw.  It's awful not going to church together.  Our wedding anniversary falls on a Sunday this year.  She will go to her church and I will go to mine.  We don't have children of our own, but we have two nephews, Catholic, who are like sons to us, approaching their first communion and I can't be their sponsor.  You think I wouldn't love to be proved wrong, even now? "Swimming the Bosporus" has been painful and traumatic causing more problems than it solved.  But, no, in spite of everything I don't regret it, because no matter how much I might wish it to be otherwise, Orthodoxy is right.  Like it or not, accept it or not, it's the truth.  That's all there is to it.

I perfectly understand how hard it must be for you. It's the same for me, just roles reversed: My wife is orthodox. But for the very same reason you had to leave, I must stay: Catholicism is right. It is the truth. AL and anything else that might happen in this pontificate does not change this in the least.

Online beebert

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #147 on: February 14, 2017, 02:45:17 PM »
Oh c'mon...what is that you struggle with?

Let me tell you.  I wish Catholicism was right.  I was Catholic all my life.  Played priest as a boy.  Became an altar boy.  Went to seminary.  When that didn't work out I got married to a woman who was nominally Catholic.  Convinced her just how important the faith was.  Went on pilgrimages to Rome, Guadalupe, Fatima, and Lourdes.  My decision to convert almost ended my marriage.  Even going on three years now being Orthodox and it's still raw.  It's awful not going to church together.  Our wedding anniversary falls on a Sunday this year.  She will go to her church and I will go to mine.  We don't have children of our own, but we have two nephews, Catholic, who are like sons to us, approaching their first communion and I can't be their sponsor.  You think I wouldn't love to be proved wrong, even now? "Swimming the Bosporus" has been painful and traumatic causing more problems than it solved.  But, no, in spite of everything I don't regret it, because no matter how much I might wish it to be otherwise, Orthodoxy is right.  Like it or not, accept it or not, it's the truth.  That's all there is to it.

I perfectly understand how hard it must be for you. It's the same for me, just roles reversed: My wife is orthodox. But for the very same reason you had to leave, I must stay: Catholicism is right. It is the truth. AL and anything else that might happen in this pontificate does not change this in the least.
I find this a big problem within christendom. So many claim protestantism is right, others catholicism and then others orthodoxy. Isn't Christ the truth? Nothing But Christ. There are plenty of Saints both within orthodox and catcholic Church. Or am I wrong?

Offline benjohn146

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #148 on: February 14, 2017, 02:50:31 PM »
Oh c'mon...what is that you struggle with?

Let me tell you.  I wish Catholicism was right.  I was Catholic all my life.  Played priest as a boy.  Became an altar boy.  Went to seminary.  When that didn't work out I got married to a woman who was nominally Catholic.  Convinced her just how important the faith was.  Went on pilgrimages to Rome, Guadalupe, Fatima, and Lourdes.  My decision to convert almost ended my marriage.  Even going on three years now being Orthodox and it's still raw.  It's awful not going to church together.  Our wedding anniversary falls on a Sunday this year.  She will go to her church and I will go to mine.  We don't have children of our own, but we have two nephews, Catholic, who are like sons to us, approaching their first communion and I can't be their sponsor.  You think I wouldn't love to be proved wrong, even now? "Swimming the Bosporus" has been painful and traumatic causing more problems than it solved.  But, no, in spite of everything I don't regret it, because no matter how much I might wish it to be otherwise, Orthodoxy is right.  Like it or not, accept it or not, it's the truth.  That's all there is to it.

I perfectly understand how hard it must be for you. It's the same for me, just roles reversed: My wife is orthodox. But for the very same reason you had to leave, I must stay: Catholicism is right. It is the truth. AL and anything else that might happen in this pontificate does not change this in the least.
I find this a big problem within christendom. So many claim protestantism is right, others catholicism and then others orthodoxy. Isn't Christ the truth? Nothing But Christ. There are plenty of Saints both within orthodox and catcholic Church. Or am I wrong?

Please, define for us the following:

Who is Christ?
St Makarios, pray for us.

Offline PJ26

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #149 on: February 14, 2017, 02:57:05 PM »
To Lepanto,

Oh well.  Maybe we'll talk more as things unfold, although I must say that I find your statement "AL and anything else that might happen in this pontificate does not change this in the least" interesting considering just how much might actually still happen and how that will then need to be squared with teachings the Catholic church considers infallible both as regards marriage and the papacy.  Anyway, agree to disagree then for the moment at least.  All the best to you and your wife. :)

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #150 on: February 14, 2017, 03:15:53 PM »
It seems there is some Schadenfreude .
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

I derive no pleasure from observing what the Roman Catholics are going through; I believe it is an inevitable consequence of their theological system (whether or not the current controversy is more or less serious than previous controversies). 

Roman Catholics believe that the Popes are heads of the Church on earth, that they have universal, immediate, ordinary, personal jurisdiction over all Catholics, that they are infallible when speaking ex cathedra, that even when not speaking so their teachings and rulings are to be given pious assent by the faithful, etc.  Yet, when a Pope teaches something, the people squirm according to their own predilections. 

So, for example, when Pope John Paul II authoritatively taught that women couldn't be ordained to the priesthood, those who supported the prohibition of women's ordination loved and supported the exercise of papal authority, while those who didn't went on about how it was not (clearly) an infallible definition so perhaps another Pope could rule differently, that it only spoke of priests and not deacons, etc. 

A similar thing is happening with AL.  Those who support the proposal to admit divorced and remarried people to Communion are happy to refer to AL as a magisterial document, highlight the Pope's authority and jurisdiction, begin to implement it, and punish those who do not.  Those who oppose the proposal claim that AL is not magisterial, is not a teaching, that Popes are not always infallible, that some should be opposed and formally corrected, etc.  Often, those who are ultramontane on one issue are left-of-Anglican on others. 

Roman Catholics have a love/hate relationship with the Christian East, and which is at play depends on whether our position is agreeable to them.  So, for example, the same crowd that invokes us as an example of liturgical conservatism/traditionalism in order to combat the myriad insanities found in RC churches on any given day will also self-servingly attack us on our "teaching" on divorce and remarriage (which even their own Cardinals do not really understand because they insist on interpreting it through their own theological system rather than learning ours) because it makes them feel good to believe they have not "sold out".   

I don't see "laetitia" in any of this.  What I see is a lot of confusion among people who are united by a belief in the Pope's authority but only put it into practice when the Pope agrees with them.  And then their apologists wish to impose their theological system on us as an element of apostolic faith by pointing to our alleged confusion, lack of authority, doctrinal deviations, etc. because we don't have that belief.

On the one hand, I am sad for them.  On the other hand, they seem to prefer their system as is and wish for us to submit to it: while I wish them well, we could never do such a thing because then we, like them, would be abandoning the Church of Christ and its divinely-revealed faith for a religion of mere man, by mere man, for mere man, as mere man.   

The RC doesn't allow remarried or divorced individuals to dine with Christ ? I need clarification. Is this before a confession and penance or even after? Is this seen as in unforgivable sin to them?

I think their position is that a divorced person who remarries without having had his previous marriage declared null by an ecclesiastical tribunal is still sacramentally married to the first spouse: hence, adultery.  And unrepentant adultery is what prevents such a person from receiving the sacraments. 
Just grab them by prayer.


Mor has spoken through George... this is the faith of the fathers!

The Church's bridegroom was never the Byzantine Empire.

Online beebert

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #151 on: February 14, 2017, 03:56:05 PM »
Oh c'mon...what is that you struggle with?

Let me tell you.  I wish Catholicism was right.  I was Catholic all my life.  Played priest as a boy.  Became an altar boy.  Went to seminary.  When that didn't work out I got married to a woman who was nominally Catholic.  Convinced her just how important the faith was.  Went on pilgrimages to Rome, Guadalupe, Fatima, and Lourdes.  My decision to convert almost ended my marriage.  Even going on three years now being Orthodox and it's still raw.  It's awful not going to church together.  Our wedding anniversary falls on a Sunday this year.  She will go to her church and I will go to mine.  We don't have children of our own, but we have two nephews, Catholic, who are like sons to us, approaching their first communion and I can't be their sponsor.  You think I wouldn't love to be proved wrong, even now? "Swimming the Bosporus" has been painful and traumatic causing more problems than it solved.  But, no, in spite of everything I don't regret it, because no matter how much I might wish it to be otherwise, Orthodoxy is right.  Like it or not, accept it or not, it's the truth.  That's all there is to it.

I perfectly understand how hard it must be for you. It's the same for me, just roles reversed: My wife is orthodox. But for the very same reason you had to leave, I must stay: Catholicism is right. It is the truth. AL and anything else that might happen in this pontificate does not change this in the least.
I find this a big problem within christendom. So many claim protestantism is right, others catholicism and then others orthodoxy. Isn't Christ the truth? Nothing But Christ. There are plenty of Saints both within orthodox and catcholic Church. Or am I wrong?

Please, define for us the following:

Who is Christ?
The church?

Offline benjohn146

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #152 on: February 14, 2017, 04:17:43 PM »
Oh c'mon...what is that you struggle with?

Let me tell you.  I wish Catholicism was right.  I was Catholic all my life.  Played priest as a boy.  Became an altar boy.  Went to seminary.  When that didn't work out I got married to a woman who was nominally Catholic.  Convinced her just how important the faith was.  Went on pilgrimages to Rome, Guadalupe, Fatima, and Lourdes.  My decision to convert almost ended my marriage.  Even going on three years now being Orthodox and it's still raw.  It's awful not going to church together.  Our wedding anniversary falls on a Sunday this year.  She will go to her church and I will go to mine.  We don't have children of our own, but we have two nephews, Catholic, who are like sons to us, approaching their first communion and I can't be their sponsor.  You think I wouldn't love to be proved wrong, even now? "Swimming the Bosporus" has been painful and traumatic causing more problems than it solved.  But, no, in spite of everything I don't regret it, because no matter how much I might wish it to be otherwise, Orthodoxy is right.  Like it or not, accept it or not, it's the truth.  That's all there is to it.

I perfectly understand how hard it must be for you. It's the same for me, just roles reversed: My wife is orthodox. But for the very same reason you had to leave, I must stay: Catholicism is right. It is the truth. AL and anything else that might happen in this pontificate does not change this in the least.
I find this a big problem within christendom. So many claim protestantism is right, others catholicism and then others orthodoxy. Isn't Christ the truth? Nothing But Christ. There are plenty of Saints both within orthodox and catcholic Church. Or am I wrong?

Please, define for us the following:

Who is Christ?
The church?

The Church is the Body of Christ, but not Christ in essence. The Church is making us to know Who Is Christ, hence the importance of finding His True Church.

Does it help? If yes, maybe you can answer my previous question and than know Who Christ Is.
St Makarios, pray for us.

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #153 on: February 14, 2017, 04:20:50 PM »
Oh c'mon...what is that you struggle with?

Let me tell you.  I wish Catholicism was right.  I was Catholic all my life.  Played priest as a boy.  Became an altar boy.  Went to seminary.  When that didn't work out I got married to a woman who was nominally Catholic.  Convinced her just how important the faith was.  Went on pilgrimages to Rome, Guadalupe, Fatima, and Lourdes.  My decision to convert almost ended my marriage.  Even going on three years now being Orthodox and it's still raw.  It's awful not going to church together.  Our wedding anniversary falls on a Sunday this year.  She will go to her church and I will go to mine.  We don't have children of our own, but we have two nephews, Catholic, who are like sons to us, approaching their first communion and I can't be their sponsor.  You think I wouldn't love to be proved wrong, even now? "Swimming the Bosporus" has been painful and traumatic causing more problems than it solved.  But, no, in spite of everything I don't regret it, because no matter how much I might wish it to be otherwise, Orthodoxy is right.  Like it or not, accept it or not, it's the truth.  That's all there is to it.

I perfectly understand how hard it must be for you. It's the same for me, just roles reversed: My wife is orthodox. But for the very same reason you had to leave, I must stay: Catholicism is right. It is the truth. AL and anything else that might happen in this pontificate does not change this in the least.
I find this a big problem within christendom. So many claim protestantism is right, others catholicism and then others orthodoxy. Isn't Christ the truth? Nothing But Christ. There are plenty of Saints both within orthodox and catcholic Church. Or am I wrong?

Please, define for us the following:

Who is Christ?
The church?

The Church is the Body of Christ, but not Christ in essence. The Church is making us to know Who Is Christ, hence the importance of finding His True Church.

Does it help? If yes, maybe you can answer my previous question and than know Who Christ Is.
I know who Christ is, or what do you mean? Christ is the one who is shown to us in the gospels and in the church, but also within us in our life and around us in others life. Christ is God, he is everywhere present...

Offline PJ26

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #154 on: February 14, 2017, 04:50:54 PM »
Returning to the original theme of Amoris Laetitia - and let me preface this by saying yes I know that this is not an official response to the dubia and yes I know that Cardinal Coccopalmerio didn't even bother to show up - the official website of radio vaticana has a story regarding a press conference which took place today introducing a new booklet by Cardinal Coccopalmerio, published by the Vatican's official publishing house, on the subject of Amoris Laetitia.

In the absence of the Cardinal, the booklet was presented by "Father Maurizio Gronchi, theologian, professor at Rome’s Pontifical Urbaniana University and consultant at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and veteran journalist Orazio La Rocca, expert in Vatican affairs."

"La Rocca highlighted the document’s admonition to men of the Church not to condemn anyone forever, but to consider a pastoral approach towards people who have contracted a civil marriage, who are divorced and remarried, or simply living together  but who are seeking to have their situation transformed into the full reality of marriage and family in conformity with the Gospel."

"'I had asked myself whether the doubts that had been raised regarding a possible violation of the Church’s doctrine could be founded; after reading this book it is clear that this is not so' he said."

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2017/02/14/amoris_laetitia_chap_8_explained_by_cardinal_coccopalmier/1292483

The article does not quote the booklet, however, Rorate Coeli provides the following excerpt:

"The divorced and remarried, de facto couples, those cohabiting, are certainly not models of unions in sync with Catholic Doctrine, but the Church cannot look the other way. Therefore, the sacraments of Reconciliation and of Communion must be given even to those so-called wounded families and to however many who, despite living in situations not in line with traditional matrimonial canons, express the sincere desire to approach the sacraments after an appropriate period of discernment... Yes, therefore, to admission to the sacraments for those who, despite living in irregular situations, sincerely ask for admission into the fullness of ecclesial life, it is a gesture of openness and profound mercy on the part of Mother Church, who does not leave behind any of her children, aware that absolute perfection is a precious gift, but one which cannot be reached by everyone."

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2017/02/important-francis-surrogate-to-answer.html



Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #155 on: February 14, 2017, 05:17:17 PM »
To Lepanto,

Oh well.  Maybe we'll talk more as things unfold, although I must say that I find your statement "AL and anything else that might happen in this pontificate does not change this in the least" interesting considering just how much might actually still happen and how that will then need to be squared with teachings the Catholic church considers infallible both as regards marriage and the papacy.  Anyway, agree to disagree then for the moment at least.  All the best to you and your wife. :)
Thank you. The same to you and your wife.

Offline Ilyin

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #156 on: February 14, 2017, 05:45:13 PM »
"It's intuitively obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. In what world is a postpositivist even related to Zizek or phenomenology? The answer is - in no world.

I for one do not support the Council of Crete and am very critical of the Patriarchate of Constantinople and its occasional proclamations of a very...let's say a peculiar ecclesiology. Holding this position does not therefore demand that I sell my soul down the river as a political shill.

In short, you've done nothing more than prove my point, which is that you are not actually all that well-principled. You're just a naïve reactionary contrarian."

Ahh poor Mr Rozhek you need to calm down and listen a bit more to your Greek grandmother. All that Zizek has gone to your head. I'm sorry that I touched on a sore point and your rhizomes have become all mixed up, but never fear. God is merciful! You need not get your knickers in a twist. I recommend a year or two in a (Russian) monastery and absolutely no Zizek (or even Yannaras!). It will be very good for you. Please keep me informed of your progress.

Online beebert

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #157 on: February 14, 2017, 06:00:38 PM »
Oh c'mon...what is that you struggle with?

Let me tell you.  I wish Catholicism was right.  I was Catholic all my life.  Played priest as a boy.  Became an altar boy.  Went to seminary.  When that didn't work out I got married to a woman who was nominally Catholic.  Convinced her just how important the faith was.  Went on pilgrimages to Rome, Guadalupe, Fatima, and Lourdes.  My decision to convert almost ended my marriage.  Even going on three years now being Orthodox and it's still raw.  It's awful not going to church together.  Our wedding anniversary falls on a Sunday this year.  She will go to her church and I will go to mine.  We don't have children of our own, but we have two nephews, Catholic, who are like sons to us, approaching their first communion and I can't be their sponsor.  You think I wouldn't love to be proved wrong, even now? "Swimming the Bosporus" has been painful and traumatic causing more problems than it solved.  But, no, in spite of everything I don't regret it, because no matter how much I might wish it to be otherwise, Orthodoxy is right.  Like it or not, accept it or not, it's the truth.  That's all there is to it.

I perfectly understand how hard it must be for you. It's the same for me, just roles reversed: My wife is orthodox. But for the very same reason you had to leave, I must stay: Catholicism is right. It is the truth. AL and anything else that might happen in this pontificate does not change this in the least.
I find this a big problem within christendom. So many claim protestantism is right, others catholicism and then others orthodoxy. Isn't Christ the truth? Nothing But Christ. There are plenty of Saints both within orthodox and catcholic Church. Or am I wrong?

Please, define for us the following:

Who is Christ?
The church?

The Church is the Body of Christ, but not Christ in essence. The Church is making us to know Who Is Christ, hence the importance of finding His True Church.

Does it help? If yes, maybe you can answer my previous question and than know Who Christ Is.
I know who Christ is, or what do you mean? Christ is the one who is shown to us in the gospels and in the church, but also within us in our life and around us in others life. Christ is God, he is everywhere present...
But there has been true faith and truth of Christ in orthodoxy, catholicism AND protestantism through history. The gregorian music in the catholic church for example, Johann Sebastian Bach in protestantism, the icons and the russian orthodox music in the orthodox church... All of these are proofs of some deep sense of true faith and truth in general. Of course the catholic church has had a lot of lies and bloody histories as well, like the inquisition etc. And protestantism as well. But still. Even if the orthodox church is the true church(which I believe) it doesn't mean that everything with protestantism and catholicism is false and lies. There are truths there as well and there are some true believers there too

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #158 on: February 14, 2017, 09:17:48 PM »
"It's intuitively obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. In what world is a postpositivist even related to Zizek or phenomenology? The answer is - in no world.

I for one do not support the Council of Crete and am very critical of the Patriarchate of Constantinople and its occasional proclamations of a very...let's say a peculiar ecclesiology. Holding this position does not therefore demand that I sell my soul down the river as a political shill.

In short, you've done nothing more than prove my point, which is that you are not actually all that well-principled. You're just a naïve reactionary contrarian."

Ahh poor Mr Rozhek you need to calm down and listen a bit more to your Greek grandmother. All that Zizek has gone to your head. I'm sorry that I touched on a sore point and your rhizomes have become all mixed up, but never fear. God is merciful! You need not get your knickers in a twist. I recommend a year or two in a (Russian) monastery and absolutely no Zizek (or even Yannaras!). It will be very good for you. Please keep me informed of your progress.

Try Popper, idiot.
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Offline tcolon90

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #159 on: February 14, 2017, 10:10:58 PM »
It seems there is some Schadenfreude .
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

I derive no pleasure from observing what the Roman Catholics are going through; I believe it is an inevitable consequence of their theological system (whether or not the current controversy is more or less serious than previous controversies). 

Roman Catholics believe that the Popes are heads of the Church on earth, that they have universal, immediate, ordinary, personal jurisdiction over all Catholics, that they are infallible when speaking ex cathedra, that even when not speaking so their teachings and rulings are to be given pious assent by the faithful, etc.  Yet, when a Pope teaches something, the people squirm according to their own predilections. 

So, for example, when Pope John Paul II authoritatively taught that women couldn't be ordained to the priesthood, those who supported the prohibition of women's ordination loved and supported the exercise of papal authority, while those who didn't went on about how it was not (clearly) an infallible definition so perhaps another Pope could rule differently, that it only spoke of priests and not deacons, etc. 

A similar thing is happening with AL.  Those who support the proposal to admit divorced and remarried people to Communion are happy to refer to AL as a magisterial document, highlight the Pope's authority and jurisdiction, begin to implement it, and punish those who do not.  Those who oppose the proposal claim that AL is not magisterial, is not a teaching, that Popes are not always infallible, that some should be opposed and formally corrected, etc.  Often, those who are ultramontane on one issue are left-of-Anglican on others. 

Roman Catholics have a love/hate relationship with the Christian East, and which is at play depends on whether our position is agreeable to them.  So, for example, the same crowd that invokes us as an example of liturgical conservatism/traditionalism in order to combat the myriad insanities found in RC churches on any given day will also self-servingly attack us on our "teaching" on divorce and remarriage (which even their own Cardinals do not really understand because they insist on interpreting it through their own theological system rather than learning ours) because it makes them feel good to believe they have not "sold out".   

I don't see "laetitia" in any of this.  What I see is a lot of confusion among people who are united by a belief in the Pope's authority but only put it into practice when the Pope agrees with them.  And then their apologists wish to impose their theological system on us as an element of apostolic faith by pointing to our alleged confusion, lack of authority, doctrinal deviations, etc. because we don't have that belief.

On the one hand, I am sad for them.  On the other hand, they seem to prefer their system as is and wish for us to submit to it: while I wish them well, we could never do such a thing because then we, like them, would be abandoning the Church of Christ and its divinely-revealed faith for a religion of mere man, by mere man, for mere man, as mere man.   

The RC doesn't allow remarried or divorced individuals to dine with Christ ? I need clarification. Is this before a confession and penance or even after? Is this seen as in unforgivable sin to them?

I think their position is that a divorced person who remarries without having had his previous marriage declared null by an ecclesiastical tribunal is still sacramentally married to the first spouse: hence, adultery.  And unrepentant adultery is what prevents such a person from receiving the sacraments.

Thanks. I don't get annulment though. It sounds like they're saying the marriage never existed, but how is that possible when the marriage was established by God? I understand sims get washed away, but to say that your love and experience with a person is null seems strange to me.
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Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #160 on: February 14, 2017, 10:43:31 PM »
It seems there is some Schadenfreude .
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

I derive no pleasure from observing what the Roman Catholics are going through; I believe it is an inevitable consequence of their theological system (whether or not the current controversy is more or less serious than previous controversies). 

Roman Catholics believe that the Popes are heads of the Church on earth, that they have universal, immediate, ordinary, personal jurisdiction over all Catholics, that they are infallible when speaking ex cathedra, that even when not speaking so their teachings and rulings are to be given pious assent by the faithful, etc.  Yet, when a Pope teaches something, the people squirm according to their own predilections. 

So, for example, when Pope John Paul II authoritatively taught that women couldn't be ordained to the priesthood, those who supported the prohibition of women's ordination loved and supported the exercise of papal authority, while those who didn't went on about how it was not (clearly) an infallible definition so perhaps another Pope could rule differently, that it only spoke of priests and not deacons, etc. 

A similar thing is happening with AL.  Those who support the proposal to admit divorced and remarried people to Communion are happy to refer to AL as a magisterial document, highlight the Pope's authority and jurisdiction, begin to implement it, and punish those who do not.  Those who oppose the proposal claim that AL is not magisterial, is not a teaching, that Popes are not always infallible, that some should be opposed and formally corrected, etc.  Often, those who are ultramontane on one issue are left-of-Anglican on others. 

Roman Catholics have a love/hate relationship with the Christian East, and which is at play depends on whether our position is agreeable to them.  So, for example, the same crowd that invokes us as an example of liturgical conservatism/traditionalism in order to combat the myriad insanities found in RC churches on any given day will also self-servingly attack us on our "teaching" on divorce and remarriage (which even their own Cardinals do not really understand because they insist on interpreting it through their own theological system rather than learning ours) because it makes them feel good to believe they have not "sold out".   

I don't see "laetitia" in any of this.  What I see is a lot of confusion among people who are united by a belief in the Pope's authority but only put it into practice when the Pope agrees with them.  And then their apologists wish to impose their theological system on us as an element of apostolic faith by pointing to our alleged confusion, lack of authority, doctrinal deviations, etc. because we don't have that belief.

On the one hand, I am sad for them.  On the other hand, they seem to prefer their system as is and wish for us to submit to it: while I wish them well, we could never do such a thing because then we, like them, would be abandoning the Church of Christ and its divinely-revealed faith for a religion of mere man, by mere man, for mere man, as mere man.   

The RC doesn't allow remarried or divorced individuals to dine with Christ ? I need clarification. Is this before a confession and penance or even after? Is this seen as in unforgivable sin to them?

I think their position is that a divorced person who remarries without having had his previous marriage declared null by an ecclesiastical tribunal is still sacramentally married to the first spouse: hence, adultery.  And unrepentant adultery is what prevents such a person from receiving the sacraments.

Thanks. I don't get annulment though. It sounds like they're saying the marriage never existed, but how is that possible when the marriage was established by God? I understand sims get washed away, but to say that your love and experience with a person is null seems strange to me.
Actually, annulment says due to some reason (which is listed in canon law), God actually didn't establish the marriage as a sacramental marriage, even though everyone may have thought it was at the time. Unfortunately establishing the marriage's nullity is a canonical process, with sworn testimony and evidence, and a ruling that can be appealed to Rome. It's also probably not supposed to be as freely granted as it is...though perhaps it's a subconscious admission that RC doctrine has not been correct on this point?

Sadly this will eventually affect my ex since I was married and divorced as a RC. I'll cooperate if she wants to go through, though I'm not sure it's annullable according to their laws. If not, I *technically* have to die to free her to marry with the RCc, though now AL might let her if she did marry again outside it to receive communion with a clear conscience. (She can't kill me though -- that's covered in the law as an impediment to her next marriage :P)
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May the Lord help me to become even a little bit like that guy.

Offline tcolon90

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #161 on: February 14, 2017, 11:49:09 PM »
It seems there is some Schadenfreude .
What good will it do the East, if the West's going down the drain, I wonder.
 >:(

I derive no pleasure from observing what the Roman Catholics are going through; I believe it is an inevitable consequence of their theological system (whether or not the current controversy is more or less serious than previous controversies). 

Roman Catholics believe that the Popes are heads of the Church on earth, that they have universal, immediate, ordinary, personal jurisdiction over all Catholics, that they are infallible when speaking ex cathedra, that even when not speaking so their teachings and rulings are to be given pious assent by the faithful, etc.  Yet, when a Pope teaches something, the people squirm according to their own predilections. 

So, for example, when Pope John Paul II authoritatively taught that women couldn't be ordained to the priesthood, those who supported the prohibition of women's ordination loved and supported the exercise of papal authority, while those who didn't went on about how it was not (clearly) an infallible definition so perhaps another Pope could rule differently, that it only spoke of priests and not deacons, etc. 

A similar thing is happening with AL.  Those who support the proposal to admit divorced and remarried people to Communion are happy to refer to AL as a magisterial document, highlight the Pope's authority and jurisdiction, begin to implement it, and punish those who do not.  Those who oppose the proposal claim that AL is not magisterial, is not a teaching, that Popes are not always infallible, that some should be opposed and formally corrected, etc.  Often, those who are ultramontane on one issue are left-of-Anglican on others. 

Roman Catholics have a love/hate relationship with the Christian East, and which is at play depends on whether our position is agreeable to them.  So, for example, the same crowd that invokes us as an example of liturgical conservatism/traditionalism in order to combat the myriad insanities found in RC churches on any given day will also self-servingly attack us on our "teaching" on divorce and remarriage (which even their own Cardinals do not really understand because they insist on interpreting it through their own theological system rather than learning ours) because it makes them feel good to believe they have not "sold out".   

I don't see "laetitia" in any of this.  What I see is a lot of confusion among people who are united by a belief in the Pope's authority but only put it into practice when the Pope agrees with them.  And then their apologists wish to impose their theological system on us as an element of apostolic faith by pointing to our alleged confusion, lack of authority, doctrinal deviations, etc. because we don't have that belief.

On the one hand, I am sad for them.  On the other hand, they seem to prefer their system as is and wish for us to submit to it: while I wish them well, we could never do such a thing because then we, like them, would be abandoning the Church of Christ and its divinely-revealed faith for a religion of mere man, by mere man, for mere man, as mere man.   

The RC doesn't allow remarried or divorced individuals to dine with Christ ? I need clarification. Is this before a confession and penance or even after? Is this seen as in unforgivable sin to them?

I think their position is that a divorced person who remarries without having had his previous marriage declared null by an ecclesiastical tribunal is still sacramentally married to the first spouse: hence, adultery.  And unrepentant adultery is what prevents such a person from receiving the sacraments.

Thanks. I don't get annulment though. It sounds like they're saying the marriage never existed, but how is that possible when the marriage was established by God? I understand sims get washed away, but to say that your love and experience with a person is null seems strange to me.
Actually, annulment says due to some reason (which is listed in canon law), God actually didn't establish the marriage as a sacramental marriage, even though everyone may have thought it was at the time. Unfortunately establishing the marriage's nullity is a canonical process, with sworn testimony and evidence, and a ruling that can be appealed to Rome. It's also probably not supposed to be as freely granted as it is...though perhaps it's a subconscious admission that RC doctrine has not been correct on this point?

Sadly this will eventually affect my ex since I was married and divorced as a RC. I'll cooperate if she wants to go through, though I'm not sure it's annullable according to their laws. If not, I *technically* have to die to free her to marry with the RCc, though now AL might let her if she did marry again outside it to receive communion with a clear conscience. (She can't kill me though -- that's covered in the law as an impediment to her next marriage :P)

Sounds like a lot of legal mumbo jumbo made up to get around a bad policy. This kind of loophole shenanigans seems common the the RCc at least from my perspective. Similar to the wierd antipope stuff to explain away abuses of infallibility. He. Ant be infallible if he was never a pope huh?
"For where the body is, the eagles will gather."

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #162 on: February 15, 2017, 12:55:48 AM »
Are you saying that the Papacy of a Pope can be annulled like marriage?  There's a loophole for ya!
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #163 on: February 15, 2017, 02:00:21 AM »
Are you saying that the Papacy of a Pope can be annulled like marriage?  There's a loophole for ya!
Don't need no loopholes  ;D

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #164 on: February 15, 2017, 03:26:26 AM »
Just grab them by prayer.


Mor has spoken through George... this is the faith of the fathers!

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Offline christiane777

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #165 on: February 15, 2017, 03:47:26 AM »
Are you saying that the Papacy of a Pope can be annulled like marriage?  There's a loophole for ya!

As I understand it, yes, we just discern our way with our conscience.  The pope has 'developed' himself out of the equation.  I personally do still stick by the Gospel, but I am a bit old-fashioned, rigid even, there.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 03:48:35 AM by christiane777 »
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #166 on: February 15, 2017, 04:53:30 AM »
The four bishops can voice their dubia till the cows come home.
The pope can simply ignore it, if he chooses. He is the vicar of Christ and can do as he pleases.
They can play rebellion, but will pay the bill.
That's the way it is.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 04:56:35 AM by Lepanto »

Offline J Michael

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Offline J Michael

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #168 on: February 15, 2017, 03:36:37 PM »
The four bishops can voice their dubia till the cows come home.
The pope can simply ignore it, if he chooses. He is the vicar of Christ and can do as he pleases.
They can play rebellion, but will pay the bill.
That's the way it is.

Thank God for Orthodoxy! :)
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Offline christiane777

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #169 on: February 15, 2017, 07:12:58 PM »
Quote
Article: "On the Formal Correction of Pope Francis" - See more at: http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2017/02/article-on-formal-correction-of-pope.html#more

It is more than four months since the dubia concerning the teaching of the apostolic exhortation Amoris Laetitia were sent to Pope Francis by Cardinals Brandmüller, Burke, Caffarra and Meisner. As is well known, the dubia requested the Pope to dispel doubts about the content of Amoris Laetitia by authoritatively confirming that the document did not make five claims that contradicted Catholic tradition and divine revelation. After these dubia were made public, Cardinal Burke stated that 'if there is no response to these questions, then I would say that it would be a question of taking a formal act of correction of a serious error.' - See more at: http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2017/02/article-on-formal-correction-of-pope.html#more

This is one long article.  I just scanned through - not really wanting to get into the AL weeds as I don't really care about the details.  I know enough to believe the Pope is in error, in violation of standing doctrine, teaching.  That suffices for me.  In any event, as I understand it,  the Cardinals can issue a formal correction without a response from the Pope to the dubia.  Now, given the current climate my guess is this is unlikely but it is interesting to think about.  Kind of a Plan B.  Also I am a little careful with Rorate Caeli - they take traditionalism to the next level - think ether.  However, more often than not, they prove to be right.  So I take them seriously - good track record anyway so far on our buddy Francis.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 07:17:45 PM by christiane777 »
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Offline tcolon90

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #170 on: February 15, 2017, 07:28:15 PM »
The four bishops can voice their dubia till the cows come home.
The pope can simply ignore it, if he chooses. He is the vicar of Christ and can do as he pleases.
They can play rebellion, but will pay the bill.
That's the way it is.

This se ems to be core problem. He can play rebellion with no consequences but when those below him have legitimate  concerns they risk deposition. Sometimes doing as you please is not right no matter who you are.

As far as the AL goes, it's neither Orthodox nor Catholic. If it's precepts get adopted i wouldn't be surprised. Wouldn't be the first time Rome  changed its doctrines, especially on marriage.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 07:28:56 PM by tcolon90 »
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #171 on: February 15, 2017, 08:45:27 PM »
The four bishops can voice their dubia till the cows come home.
The pope can simply ignore it, if he chooses. He is the vicar of Christ and can do as he pleases.
They can play rebellion, but will pay the bill.
That's the way it is.

Thank God for Orthodoxy! :)

lol indeed.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 08:47:22 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #172 on: February 15, 2017, 09:00:06 PM »
The four bishops can voice their dubia till the cows come home.
The pope can simply ignore it, if he chooses. He is the vicar of Christ and can do as he pleases.
They can play rebellion, but will pay the bill.
That's the way it is.

I don't think other Catholics in this thread agree with you
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #173 on: February 16, 2017, 03:45:07 AM »
The four bishops can voice their dubia till the cows come home.
The pope can simply ignore it, if he chooses. He is the vicar of Christ and can do as he pleases.
They can play rebellion, but will pay the bill.
That's the way it is.

I don't think other Catholics in this thread agree with you
I do not know. Let me try to be more explicit:
Leaning towards tradition, you would probably call me a trad catholic.
In my opinion, as stated previously, AL is unnecessary and irrelevant - you could also say dangerous.
The best thing ordinary Catholics and clergy can do imho is fully ignore it. Period.
The four bishops are right and they are heroes - little hyperbole there.
BUT: It will achieve nothing. It is time that certain trad circles wake up from day-dreaming and realize Francis will not withdraw AL. Seriously: Do they expect him to say: "I overlooked something, sorry, my bad."? Face reality. He is in charge and can do as he pleases. I do not say he should.
Interesting tangent: The very same conservative circles vehemently demanding acceptance of papal primacy in the past (e.g. realizing Summorum Pontificum) are complaining loudest now that a pope really is emphasizing his authority. This is bordering opportunism.

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #174 on: February 16, 2017, 04:16:42 AM »
Deleted.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 04:17:03 AM by Indocern »

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #175 on: February 16, 2017, 04:21:06 AM »
The four bishops can voice their dubia till the cows come home.
The pope can simply ignore it, if he chooses. He is the vicar of Christ and can do as he pleases.
They can play rebellion, but will pay the bill.
That's the way it is.

I don't think other Catholics in this thread agree with you
I do not know. Let me try to be more explicit:
Leaning towards tradition, you would probably call me a trad catholic.
In my opinion, as stated previously, AL is unnecessary and irrelevant - you could also say dangerous.
The best thing ordinary Catholics and clergy can do imho is fully ignore it. Period.
The four bishops are right and they are heroes - little hyperbole there.

BUT: It will achieve nothing. It is time that certain trad circles wake up from day-dreaming and realize Francis will not withdraw AL. Seriously: Do they expect him to say: "I overlooked something, sorry, my bad."? Face reality. He is in charge and can do as he pleases. I do not say he should.
Interesting tangent: The very same conservative circles vehemently demanding acceptance of papal primacy in the past (e.g. realizing Summorum Pontificum) are complaining loudest now that a pope really is emphasizing his authority. This is bordering opportunism.

 ??? Doesn't this statement contradict the other? Or does the unchanging tradition of the Church, change yet again?
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #176 on: February 16, 2017, 04:41:12 AM »
Exactly where is the contradiction?

Offline WPM

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #177 on: February 16, 2017, 05:21:49 AM »
Exactly where is the contradiction?

Mixed individuals = different opinions
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 05:22:16 AM by WPM »

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #178 on: February 16, 2017, 05:35:41 AM »
I played a bit advocatus diaboli which may be what confused xOrthodox4Christx.

Offline PJ26

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #179 on: February 16, 2017, 09:11:19 AM »
Again, to reiterate, this is what Catholicism believes to be absolutely, infallibly true regarding the papacy and how Catholics must adhere to it:

"Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other Church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman Pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world." - Pastor Aeternus

"Religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will." - Lumen Gentium

Yet, keeping that in mind, believing it as you are required to do if you want to be Catholic, you say that the pope's most recent Apostolic Exhortation is unnecessary, irrelevant and dangerous.  That the Cardinals opposing him are to some degree heroes.  And advocating that the average Catholic just ignore him.

Can you explain that contradiction?

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #180 on: February 16, 2017, 09:21:46 AM »
I think the Catholic Pope of today is a social phenomenon . . . (Maybe the earlier popes had no such thing) ...

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #181 on: February 16, 2017, 10:21:11 AM »
The four bishops can voice their dubia till the cows come home.
The pope can simply ignore it, if he chooses. He is the vicar of Christ and can do as he pleases.
They can play rebellion, but will pay the bill.
That's the way it is.

I don't think other Catholics in this thread agree with you
I do not know. Let me try to be more explicit:
Leaning towards tradition, you would probably call me a trad catholic.
In my opinion, as stated previously, AL is unnecessary and irrelevant - you could also say dangerous.
The best thing ordinary Catholics and clergy can do imho is fully ignore it. Period.
The four bishops are right and they are heroes - little hyperbole there.
BUT: It will achieve nothing. It is time that certain trad circles wake up from day-dreaming and realize Francis will not withdraw AL. Seriously: Do they expect him to say: "I overlooked something, sorry, my bad."? Face reality. He is in charge and can do as he pleases. I do not say he should.
Interesting tangent: The very same conservative circles vehemently demanding acceptance of papal primacy in the past (e.g. realizing Summorum Pontificum) are complaining loudest now that a pope really is emphasizing his authority. This is bordering opportunism.

And yet you advocate, "let him just do whatever he wants because he is the vicar of Christ and he can do as he pleases"?  Don't you recognize the problem?
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If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #182 on: February 16, 2017, 11:13:54 AM »
Again: There is no contradiction. Did you actually read AL. It is beautiful and in agreement with what the church always taught almost everywhere. But everybody just talks about this one passage resp. footnote. Anyway.
PJ26 correctly mentioned Lumen Gentium. I am the first to agree that the supreme magisterium must be acknowledged with reverence. Orthodox reminding me of that is in a way pure irony. But once more: AL is a pastoral exhortation. It is not de fide or anything. If the pope were to issue a motu proprio declaring that Christ did not rise on the third day, do you think Lumen Gentium would kick in? We are no lemmings!

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #183 on: February 16, 2017, 11:18:39 AM »
I find it interesting you went from:

AL is a pastoral document. It has no effect on church teaching whatsoever. It is both unnecessary and irrelevant. Just simply ignore it l. Why would you want to leave the church for a piece of paper?
Don't do it unless you have a better reason.
It should have zero effect on your spiritual life. It is sad if AL leads people astray, but then again there is in the end not much you can do about it. Compared to what the church saw through throughout the centuries, this is just a mini crisis.

to:


Again: There is no contradiction. Did you actually read AL. It is beautiful and in agreement with what the church always taught almost everywhere. But everybody just talks about this one passage resp. footnote. Anyway.
PJ26 correctly mentioned Lumen Gentium. I am the first to agree that the supreme magisterium must be acknowledged with reverence. Orthodox reminding me of that is in a way pure irony. But once more: AL is a pastoral exhortation. It is not de fide or anything. If the pope were to issue a motu proprio declaring that Christ did not rise on the third day, do you think Lumen Gentium would kick in? We are no lemmings!

I feel like this is the type of repeated discussion with Catholics on doctrine.  First they go crazy against Pope Francis for heresy, then they say, "oh wait, it's not heresy, and the Pope is infallible.  Praise the Lord!"

Sigh!
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #184 on: February 16, 2017, 11:26:37 AM »
I did not change my point of view! Please don't claim something like that if you can't prove it.
Also, the pope is not infallible if you ask him the 100th digit of Pi of the top of his head in an interview on an airplane. Ex cathedra. You know all that.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #185 on: February 16, 2017, 11:49:50 AM »
Yes, the magical "ex cathedra", which is just a convenient way of saying, "he's right when he's right, and he's wrong when he's wrong."
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #186 on: February 16, 2017, 12:03:30 PM »
Yes, the magical "ex cathedra", which is just a convenient way of saying, "he's right when he's right, and he's wrong when he's wrong."
This thread is about AL and not Vatican I or whatnot.
Also, you for some reason want to use AL in order to prove how Catholicism is wrong. It will not work, already due to the nature of the document.

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #187 on: February 16, 2017, 12:14:06 PM »
I think the Catholic Pope of today is a social phenomenon . . . (Maybe the earlier popes had no such thing) ...

How prescient! 

Quote
"You have not yet realized that the vision that you have of the Church is outdated? Do not you understand that the Pope today is a world leader?  (via Google Translate)

https://anonimidellacroce.wordpress.com/2017/02/13/spifferi-parte-iii-i-grandi-rinnovamenti-di-bergoglio-di-fra-cristoforo/
Just grab them by prayer.


Mor has spoken through George... this is the faith of the fathers!

The Church's bridegroom was never the Byzantine Empire.

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #188 on: February 16, 2017, 12:15:23 PM »
I find it interesting you went from:

AL is a pastoral document. It has no effect on church teaching whatsoever. It is both unnecessary and irrelevant. Just simply ignore it l. Why would you want to leave the church for a piece of paper?
Don't do it unless you have a better reason.
It should have zero effect on your spiritual life. It is sad if AL leads people astray, but then again there is in the end not much you can do about it. Compared to what the church saw through throughout the centuries, this is just a mini crisis.

to:


Again: There is no contradiction. Did you actually read AL. It is beautiful and in agreement with what the church always taught almost everywhere. But everybody just talks about this one passage resp. footnote. Anyway.
PJ26 correctly mentioned Lumen Gentium. I am the first to agree that the supreme magisterium must be acknowledged with reverence. Orthodox reminding me of that is in a way pure irony. But once more: AL is a pastoral exhortation. It is not de fide or anything. If the pope were to issue a motu proprio declaring that Christ did not rise on the third day, do you think Lumen Gentium would kick in? We are no lemmings!

I feel like this is the type of repeated discussion with Catholics on doctrine.  First they go crazy against Pope Francis for heresy, then they say, "oh wait, it's not heresy, and the Pope is infallible.  Praise the Lord!"

Sigh!

+1
Just grab them by prayer.


Mor has spoken through George... this is the faith of the fathers!

The Church's bridegroom was never the Byzantine Empire.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #189 on: February 16, 2017, 12:17:18 PM »
Yes, the magical "ex cathedra", which is just a convenient way of saying, "he's right when he's right, and he's wrong when he's wrong."
This thread is about AL and not Vatican I or whatnot.
Also, you for some reason want to use AL in order to prove how Catholicism is wrong. It will not work, already due to the nature of the document.

It was never about AL brother.  There is no consistency among Catholic theologians.  There are usually a couple of qualified Catholic theologians with different views of this issue, all because of the ridiculously unnecessary ecclesio-theologomenoun AT BEST of this "papalist primacy" issue.  AL is a problem because of his so-called "infallibility".
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #190 on: February 16, 2017, 12:19:45 PM »
Yes, the magical "ex cathedra", which is just a convenient way of saying, "he's right when he's right, and he's wrong when he's wrong."

Which, in turn, essentially boils down to "He's right when I say so, and he's wrong when I say so."  IOW, Protestantism.
Just grab them by prayer.


Mor has spoken through George... this is the faith of the fathers!

The Church's bridegroom was never the Byzantine Empire.

Offline tcolon90

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #191 on: February 16, 2017, 01:20:59 PM »
Ex cathedra is funny because the goal post seems to shift. When he's right it seems to apply more generally but when he's wrong it gets narrowed down to a tiny rare incident. It's pointless to argue over this issue on this basis because you can never pin him down. When he's got nothing left to defend himself with the church can just say he was never really a pope in the first place and reject him, which makes me wonder why the infallibility doctrine is needed.
"For where the body is, the eagles will gather."

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #192 on: February 16, 2017, 01:21:26 PM »
Yes, the magical "ex cathedra", which is just a convenient way of saying, "he's right when he's right, and he's wrong when he's wrong."

Which, in turn, essentially boils down to "He's right when I say so, and he's wrong when I say so."  IOW, Protestantism.
Nah, another cliché.
 I will not post anymore to this thread as it is leading nowhere. At the end, it is always about papal primacy. Always the same.

Offline tcolon90

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #193 on: February 16, 2017, 01:25:07 PM »
Which leads to my next point. If a sacrament or action of the church can be later deemed ineffective even though at the time it was declared to be, then how reliable is the church's sacraments. They're either valid or not.
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Offline tcolon90

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #194 on: February 16, 2017, 01:27:28 PM »
Yes, the magical "ex cathedra", which is just a convenient way of saying, "he's right when he's right, and he's wrong when he's wrong."

Which, in turn, essentially boils down to "He's right when I say so, and he's wrong when I say so."  IOW, Protestantism.
Nah, another cliché.
 I will not post anymore to this thread as it is leading nowhere. At the end, it is always about papal primacy. Always the same.

The OP was asking about AL and how it relates to infallibility. So yes it is about the pope and his primacy.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 01:28:27 PM by tcolon90 »
"For where the body is, the eagles will gather."

Offline PJ26

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #195 on: February 16, 2017, 02:39:17 PM »
A couple of things.

AL is NOT ex cathedra, it does not IN ANY WAY touch on the issue of papal infallibility.  It does, however, touch on some other key issues such as papal authority and the nature of objective truth and perhaps whether or not such a thing even exists.

As quoted above Lumen Gentium says:

"Religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will."

Is this statement of Vatican II true or false? Period.  Stop trying to qualify it.

The fact that AL is not ex cathedra is IRRELEVANT if the above statement is true, it explicitly says so.

The pope has said that the authoritative interpretation of AL is the one given by Cardinal Schonborn who has himself said it is magisterial and part of sacred doctrine.  If you want to say the pope and one of his chief theologians are wrong - on what do you base that? What are your qualifications to do so?

Look, the very people who are criticizing Pope Francis and Amoris Laetitia would be having an absolute aneurism if I said the exact same things about John Paul II and Familiaris Consortio.  Don't deny it.  What's the difference?  Francis is pope.  JP2 was pope.  Amoris Laetitia is a post-synodal Apostolic Exhortation.  Familiaris Consortio is a post-synodal Apostolic Exhortation.  The only difference is the content.  I don't like the content.  I don't agree with it.  So I'm going to dismiss it.  Since when can a Catholic pick and choose what he or she will and will not accept?  Again, if I said that 30 years ago about Familiaris Consortio, I would be labeled disobedient, a heretic, etc.

If you want to say I don't have to pay attention to AL because it's heretical and Francis is a heretic and not really pope, that's fine, make that argument.  If you want to say Francis is the vicar of Christ, possessing the keys, so he can change moral truths and redefine things like adultery, that's fine too.  But stop being inconsistent and hypocritical applying Catholic teaching one way when you like what the pope says and another way when you don't. 



« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 02:40:37 PM by PJ26 »

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #196 on: February 16, 2017, 03:22:35 PM »
@PJ 26: Thanks. As I said, I don't want to comment anymore, sorry. Probably other RCs here want.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #197 on: February 16, 2017, 03:23:09 PM »
God bless you brother.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Agabus

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #198 on: February 16, 2017, 05:22:01 PM »
"It's intuitively obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. In what world is a postpositivist even related to Zizek or phenomenology? The answer is - in no world.

I for one do not support the Council of Crete and am very critical of the Patriarchate of Constantinople and its occasional proclamations of a very...let's say a peculiar ecclesiology. Holding this position does not therefore demand that I sell my soul down the river as a political shill.

In short, you've done nothing more than prove my point, which is that you are not actually all that well-principled. You're just a naïve reactionary contrarian."

Ahh poor Mr Rozhek you need to calm down and listen a bit more to your Greek grandmother. All that Zizek has gone to your head. I'm sorry that I touched on a sore point and your rhizomes have become all mixed up, but never fear. God is merciful! You need not get your knickers in a twist. I recommend a year or two in a (Russian) monastery and absolutely no Zizek (or even Yannaras!). It will be very good for you. Please keep me informed of your progress.

Try Popper, idiot.


Ad hom are not allowed in this forum. This goes for both of you.
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Offline christiane777

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #199 on: February 17, 2017, 10:18:49 PM »
I don't know if this has been hit on yet, but the other thing about AL - why is only communion for the divorce and remarried subject to this discernment / conscience exception of teaching?  What prevents discernment/conscience from applying to all sins?  Once the conscience (of a priest or an individual) is overriding teaching, law, on one issue, what is to prevent a universal application?  Why is one sin in one situation different?  CDR is already being extended to all 'irregular situations.'  At least there is talk of that.   It just seems like kind of a lame, subversive argument.  The revenge of the C students.  I think most concede the conservatives hit the books a little harder... :laugh:  It is amazing how much harm it is doing to the Church too.  Scattering not gathering.
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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #200 on: February 18, 2017, 10:06:53 AM »
nvm, out of context.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 10:07:42 AM by Vanhyo »

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #201 on: February 20, 2017, 12:34:35 AM »
The principle problem with Amoris Laetitia is that it is reflective of the arbitrary Catholic legalism that has dominated the church for centuries. This is how I think things have played out with this controversial document:

-Pope Francis wants divorced and remarried catholics to be reintegrated into the church and provide a pathway where they could possibly receive communion.

-Pope Francis knows he can't blatantly change doctrine on this issue, so he calls a synod that issues a document that contains one tiny, deliberately ambiguous statement that bishops can interpret in a way that justifies their allowing divorced and remarried to receive communion.

-This would technically be an abuse under traditional Catholic teaching, but it seems this Pope is so focused on discernment and the individual conscience that he seems to marginalize such concerns under the assumption that 'God understands when it comes to gray areas',  a dubious proposition.

-The fact that it at worst could be called an abuse allows the Pope to get the "best" of both worlds. He can reintegrate divorced and remarrieds (and presumably their children who have yet to marry) at least when it comes to appearances and side step the issue of a doctrinal change claiming none has occurred. In this sense the infamous footnote in AL basically attempts to serve as 'plausible deniability' for Bishops who permit divorced and remarrieds to receive where they can attempt to assert that they have a clean conscience by claiming they thought interpreting that ambiguous footnote a certain way was valid.

-So ultimately this whole controversy is about Francis trying to orchestrate a convoluted pathway to navigate his way around Catholic legalism which has spun such a tangled web that it creates the potential for chaos on the reexamination of any issue concerning the faith or morals.

Offline PJ26

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #202 on: February 20, 2017, 01:13:07 PM »
I wasn't planning on posting anything else in this thread, but I had to respond to this:

"The principle problem with Amoris Laetitia is that it is reflective of the arbitrary Catholic legalism that has dominated the church for centuries."

"ultimately this whole controversy is about Francis trying to orchestrate a convoluted pathway to navigate his way around Catholic legalism"

No.

I think people who are ignorant of their faith, if they are Catholic, and even those who belong to some other religion, but are keeping an eye on these matters, look at Pope Francis and say "Good for him for combating outdated moral and legalistic teachings.  I mean at least half of all marriages end in divorce, right? And everyone deserves a second chance after all."  Even the way Greystone phrases it - Pope Francis just wants to help out those poor folks who are divorced and remarried not feel so marginalized.  Who would have a problem with that?  That's where the focus is.

But, again, the thing is that these people are only CIVILLY remarried meaning, from a Catholic perspective, they aren't really remarried at all.  Not only are they having sexual relations outside of a sacramental marriage - a mortal sin - worse still, they are committing adultery - another mortal sin.  Then you're telling them they can receive communion in a state of mortal sin which is itself a mortal sin.  And if you die in mortal sin, you go to hell.  That is Catholic teaching.  So either the Catholic church is knowingly leading these people to hell, which really seems contradictory to the whole idea of being a church, or it is saying that the pope has the authority to change moral truths, or it is saying that what Catholicism has always taught is false, which is basically an admission that they aren't the true church after all. 

That is what this whole controversy is really about.



Offline Greystone

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #203 on: February 22, 2017, 10:31:43 AM »


But, again, the thing is that these people are only CIVILLY remarried meaning, from a Catholic perspective, they aren't really remarried at all.  Not only are they having sexual relations outside of a sacramental marriage - a mortal sin - worse still, they are committing adultery - another mortal sin.  Then you're telling them they can receive communion in a state of mortal sin which is itself a mortal sin.  And if you die in mortal sin, you go to hell.  That is Catholic teaching.

So either the Catholic church is knowingly leading these people to hell, which really seems contradictory to the whole idea of being a church, or it is saying that the pope has the authority to change moral truths, or it is saying that what Catholicism has always taught is false, which is basically an admission that they aren't the true church after all. 

That is what this whole controversy is really about.

I'm giving Pope Francis the benefit of doubt by assuming he believes all of what you expressed in the first paragraph to a great extent. The thing is a mortal sin in Catholic teaching requires three factors: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. If an uninformed divorced and remarried (civil marriage) Catholic takes the advice of their priest or bishop (based on a liberal interpretation of AL) and is led to believe it is okay for them to receive communion, the case can be made that even if the grave matters exists regardless, that in following their conscience through serious "discernment" and by following the advice of their priest or Bishop they lack full knowledge (of the acts sinfulness and gravity) and also lack deliberate consent (by not explicitly intending to sin since they don't think they are doing any wrong). This is the legalism I'm talking about which I see Pope Francis as trying to get around by opening the door for a 'loophole' where a couple can do something objectively sinful, but subjectively not be culpable or less culpable because they are acting on the counsel of their priest or Bishop and their implementation of AL. Why would he want to do this? Who knows. But it seems to me Francis doesn't seem to think it's that big of a deal and that even if the couple is doing wrong..God will understand because they just want to be close to him and potentially bring their children into the Church as well.

Ultimately I don't know what Francis believes privately, but based on his public statements he seems to put more emphasis on the individual conscience, and the idea of personal discernment is always at the forefront when he speaks on this issue (much to the distress of traditionalists who continually emphasize doctrine).

« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 10:31:57 AM by Greystone »

Offline PJ26

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #204 on: February 22, 2017, 12:28:23 PM »
For the most part, I agree with what you're saying when looking at AL in the narrow context with which you are viewing it.  My point was that one should look at it in the broader context of the papacy and Catholic teaching.  That, for me, is where its real significance lies. 

The OP was about how AL is causing some to have a crisis of faith.  I don't think that it's the fact that on any given Sunday I see two people that I know to be "living in sin" get up and go to communion that causes me to have a crisis of faith.  When I was Catholic I always assumed a bunch of people standing in line for communion probably shouldn't be doing so.  There is basically zero sacramental discipline these days when it comes to communion in the Catholic church.  It's the fact that the Pope, episcopal conferences, and Cardinals are saying it's now OK that causes the crisis in faith (and if anyone wants to say: "Oh, the pope didn't say that or AL doesn't say that" be sure to reads Francis' letter to the church in Buenos Aires regarding the implementation of AL apart from the host of other actions that others are doing without any correction from him).

Unless one is a sedevacantist, i.e. believing Francis isn't really pope, I think a Catholic has to do an incredible amount of mental gymnastics, bordering on delusion, to say that Catholic teaching isn't changing here, that there is no contradiction between what is coming out of the Vatican and say the Council of Trent's teaching on adultery, and as such, what does that mean big picture?  Is the true church, the one Jesus founded, really one where its leader has absolute authority to either change moral truths or tell others to ignore them?  That's what is causing the crisis of faith and that's the real importance of AL and all that is happening because of it.



Offline benjohn146

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #205 on: February 22, 2017, 01:07:34 PM »
Quote
But it seems to me Francis doesn't seem to think it's that big of a deal and that even if the couple is doing wrong..God will understand because they just want to be close to him and potentially bring their children into the Church as well.

Might as well abolish all dogmas and canon law, because regardless of what your are doing, even if it is wrong, God will understand because they just want to be close to him. Might as well join the Protestant Churches since that they have been doing that for awhile.

No disrespect, but this is how I see things and why I think that the RCC is in complete apostasy. It is only a sign among others of its sickness.

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Offline ErmyCath

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #206 on: February 22, 2017, 01:18:20 PM »


But, again, the thing is that these people are only CIVILLY remarried meaning, from a Catholic perspective, they aren't really remarried at all.  Not only are they having sexual relations outside of a sacramental marriage - a mortal sin - worse still, they are committing adultery - another mortal sin.  Then you're telling them they can receive communion in a state of mortal sin which is itself a mortal sin.  And if you die in mortal sin, you go to hell.  That is Catholic teaching.

So either the Catholic church is knowingly leading these people to hell, which really seems contradictory to the whole idea of being a church, or it is saying that the pope has the authority to change moral truths, or it is saying that what Catholicism has always taught is false, which is basically an admission that they aren't the true church after all. 

That is what this whole controversy is really about.

I'm giving Pope Francis the benefit of doubt by assuming he believes all of what you expressed in the first paragraph to a great extent. The thing is a mortal sin in Catholic teaching requires three factors: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. If an uninformed divorced and remarried (civil marriage) Catholic takes the advice of their priest or bishop (based on a liberal interpretation of AL) and is led to believe it is okay for them to receive communion, the case can be made that even if the grave matters exists regardless, that in following their conscience through serious "discernment" and by following the advice of their priest or Bishop they lack full knowledge (of the acts sinfulness and gravity) and also lack deliberate consent (by not explicitly intending to sin since they don't think they are doing any wrong). This is the legalism I'm talking about which I see Pope Francis as trying to get around by opening the door for a 'loophole' where a couple can do something objectively sinful, but subjectively not be culpable or less culpable because they are acting on the counsel of their priest or Bishop and their implementation of AL. Why would he want to do this? Who knows. But it seems to me Francis doesn't seem to think it's that big of a deal and that even if the couple is doing wrong..God will understand because they just want to be close to him and potentially bring their children into the Church as well.

Ultimately I don't know what Francis believes privately, but based on his public statements he seems to put more emphasis on the individual conscience, and the idea of personal discernment is always at the forefront when he speaks on this issue (much to the distress of traditionalists who continually emphasize doctrine).

The traditionalist Catholic problem with Francis's ideas in this regard, in addition to what PJ26 has stated, might be as follows: As you say, people are being led to partake of Communion in these situations on the advice of the pope, the bishops, and their priests so they might have a reduced level of culpability for the objective sacrilege taking place. But the answer to that is not to exploit a loophole in the law. The answer, according to the Catholic Church, is to promote better catechesis so that people can properly form their consciences and, as a result, ultimately bring their moral life into accord with the objective moral law, as defined by the Church over time.

So, as you say, this loophole might have the result of bringing people closer to God from an outsider perspective, but according to the Catholic teaching, these people are receiving Communion to their damnation whether they know it or not. They receive no grace through the reception of a sacrilegious Communion. So they are now being deluded by the very hierarchy who has the divine mandate to teach them the moral law and its attendant practices so that their souls will be saved.

As for their children, when the Church approves a sacrilege by downplaying the seriousness of adultery, what good is accomplished by bringing the children into Church? The Catholic Church has long taught that parents in these situations demonstrate a love of God through the tremendous sacrifices they make to live in accordance with the moral law. The children, though, are now taught the complete opposite.

All of this, of course, fails to account for precisely what PJ26 mentioned: namely, that the eternal consequences of these institutionalized sacrilegious Communions are never mentioned. So people in these situations can receive Communion and so feel as if they are part of the community -- but, as I mentioned, it is well-settled Catholic teaching that they cannot receive grace thereby, and they cannot receive valid absolution until they have a firm purpose of amendment for the sin. So the reception of Communion is  a hollow gesture of false inclusion since they are excluded from the life of the Church on the supernatural level and from the standpoint of eternity.

Whatever one thinks about the situation, it is the lack of continuity with the established practice that causes a crisis of faith, just as PJ26 so excellently described it a couple posts back.
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Offline petros22

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #207 on: February 22, 2017, 06:55:38 PM »
Quote
Unless one is a sedevacantist, i.e. believing Francis isn't really pope, I think a Catholic has to do an incredible amount of mental gymnastics, bordering on delusion, to say that Catholic teaching isn't changing here, that there is no contradiction between what is coming out of the Vatican and say the Council of Trent's teaching on adultery, and as such, what does that mean big picture?  Is the true church, the one Jesus founded, really one where its leader has absolute authority to either change moral truths or tell others to ignore them?  That's what is causing the crisis of faith and that's the real importance of AL and all that is happening because of it.

This is essentially the conclusion I have come to. A lot of Catholics are trying to defend AL as being consistent with previous doctrine in some way, but I think its a convoluted argument. And if AL contradicts previous doctrine, that means logically speaking that either Francis isn't the Pope at all, or that the Pope is not infallible. Which means the RC is not what it claims to be.
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Offline tcolon90

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #208 on: February 22, 2017, 07:13:00 PM »
According to  Catholic doctrine I guess it's technically not ex cathedra. But I always thought that a bishop always speaks ex cathedra no matter when and where he speaks. I think it's strange that a bishop can be excommunicated for even holding a hereticsl belief but the pope is somehow immune to this?
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Offline PJ26

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #209 on: February 22, 2017, 07:22:51 PM »
petros,

I would just suggest changing "that the Pope is not infallible" to something like "what Catholicism teaches about the papacy is false."  AL is not ex cathedra, so it doesn't touch on the specific issue of infallibility.  However, as Pastor Aeternus states implicitly and Lumen Gentium states explicitly, a Catholic has to obey the pope on matters of faith, morals, discipline, and governance even when not speaking infallibly.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #210 on: February 22, 2017, 07:23:58 PM »
One thing that I don't quite understand about all of this is: can't the Catholic Church (or the Pope, or whoever) just point to other ancient local orthodox catholic churches allowing divorce, as evidence that it isn't some betrayal of Tradition and stain on Church moral teachings? Or is Catholicism so far down the creek in developing their moral theology about divorce that they can't change canoes now?

Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #211 on: February 22, 2017, 07:36:01 PM »
According to  Catholic doctrine I guess it's technically not ex cathedra. But I always thought that a bishop always speaks ex cathedra no matter when and where he speaks. I think it's strange that a bishop can be excommunicated for even holding a hereticsl belief but the pope is somehow immune to this?
I don't think Catholics have ever defined ex cathedra in any meaningful way, other than to say the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption were defined ex cathedra, and argue over others like priestesses and "We declare, we define, we proclaim that it is necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff". Seems like a rather large oversight on an issue fundamental to the church of Rome.

As far as excommunicating the Pope for heresy...ask a sedevacantist, as that's their raison d'etre;)
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Offline ErmyCath

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #212 on: February 22, 2017, 07:41:05 PM »
One thing that I don't quite understand about all of this is: can't the Catholic Church (or the Pope, or whoever) just point to other ancient local orthodox catholic churches allowing divorce, as evidence that it isn't some betrayal of Tradition and stain on Church moral teachings? Or is Catholicism so far down the creek in developing their moral theology about divorce that they can't change canoes now?

Presumably, it's the latter, due especially to the Canons of Trent, Session XXIV. The teaching against divorce (with its attendant focus on annulments) is incredibly well-established. It would be tantamount to a change of course in, say, teachings about the papacy, for example. That is to say, while some might welcome the change, the change itself would tend to undermine any claim to being "the Church" based on an exposed and clear lack of consistency.
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Offline tcolon90

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #213 on: February 22, 2017, 07:45:47 PM »
According to  Catholic doctrine I guess it's technically not ex cathedra. But I always thought that a bishop always speaks ex cathedra no matter when and where he speaks. I think it's strange that a bishop can be excommunicated for even holding a hereticsl belief but the pope is somehow immune to this?
I don't think Catholics have ever defined ex cathedra in any meaningful way, other than to say the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption were defined ex cathedra, and argue over others like priestesses and "We declare, we define, we proclaim that it is necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff". Seems like a rather large oversight on an issue fundamental to the church of Rome.

As far as excommunicating the Pope for heresy...ask a sedevacantist, as that's their raison d'etre;)

I could consult the Dimond brothers on this but they're unbearable to listen to. Can't have a reasonable discussion with a sede  without being slandered or angrily yelled at for heresy.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #214 on: February 22, 2017, 07:59:40 PM »
According to  Catholic doctrine I guess it's technically not ex cathedra. But I always thought that a bishop always speaks ex cathedra no matter when and where he speaks. I think it's strange that a bishop can be excommunicated for even holding a hereticsl belief but the pope is somehow immune to this?
I don't think Catholics have ever defined ex cathedra in any meaningful way, other than to say the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption were defined ex cathedra, and argue over others like priestesses and "We declare, we define, we proclaim that it is necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff". Seems like a rather large oversight on an issue fundamental to the church of Rome.

As far as excommunicating the Pope for heresy...ask a sedevacantist, as that's their raison d'etre;)

I could consult the Dimond brothers on this but they're unbearable to listen to. Can't have a reasonable discussion with a sede  without being slandered or angrily yelled at for heresy.

I mean, if you're dialoguing with them. Their monologues are nice to listen to.
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Offline PJ26

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #215 on: February 22, 2017, 08:11:54 PM »
"Presumably, it's the latter, due especially to the Canons of Trent, Session XXIV. The teaching against divorce (with its attendant focus on annulments) is incredibly well-established. It would be tantamount to a change of course in, say, teachings about the papacy, for example. That is to say, while some might welcome the change, the change itself would tend to undermine any claim to being "the Church" based on an exposed and clear lack of consistency."

^ This

For a Catholic, the Council of Trent is an ecumenical council and therefore its teachings on divorce, as they touch on morals, are infallible, directly inspired by the Holy Spirit, unchangeable.

If you say Trent is wrong then you are acknowledging that it is not really an ecumenical council after all and, if it wasn't, what about all of the other so-called post-schism ecumenical councils?  To invalidate one ecumenical council or one teaching of faith and morals of an ecumenical council is to potentially invalidate them all.

If you say it was right then, but wrong now, then you would be saying moral truth can change, that the Holy Spirit can change His mind.

But if it really is an ecumenical council and its teachings on morality are therefore infallible and unchangeable, then how do you explain what is currently happening at the Vatican?  That the pope, either by his action or inaction, is defying what he knows to be the express will of God and leading others to do the same?  Two other supposedly ecumenical councils, Vaticans 1 & 2, say that, if I'm Catholic, I have to obey him on matters of faith, morals, discipline, and governance even when not speaking infallibly.  Are those teachings of faith of an ecumenical council false?

When you get right down to it, it's Orthodoxy, sedevacantism, moral relativism, or denial.  I really don't see a plausible alternative.

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #216 on: February 24, 2017, 03:06:26 AM »
Augustine was the greatest theologian. He is by the way very different from Luther and Calvin. He is a greater psychological genius than any other theologian and his insights on the relation between freedom and grace and the human condition before and after salvation is spot on. That is should be considered as just a fact.

Augustine's conception of grace and free will is actually pretty wretched. I much prefer Saint John Cassian's formulation.
what was his formulation?

As I understand it, the will of a human being was not so damaged to the extent that he or she was totally depraved. Rather it was damaged by the Fall to the extent that it inclines humanity towards sin. Whether or not God initiates the first encounter of grace, therefore, is somewhat of a moot question. Cassian suspected the answer varied from individual to individual. At the end of the day, however, he believed that the human will acts alongside the divine will, just as it occurs in the person of Christ. While lacking the term, one could say that he professed some form of deification or theosis, if you will. This is best exemplified in his analogy of the farmer. The farmer can plow the fields and plant the seeds, but without the rain it is all in vain. That is how Cassian conceives of salvation.
I agree with this view. Man has to respond freely to God's call. But it can't be the othar way around right, that man calls God and God saves man. God always makes the first move right?

I'm agnostic on the position. This is where my thought deviates from the Augustinian tradition. As I understand it, Augustinianism only accounts for one will, which is the human will. The human will is so damaged from the Fall that it can only choose to do evil. Therefore, God gives grace to people to restore their free will. This then leads to the question of predestination, in which Augustine explicitly states in his anti-Pelagian writings that God does not choose to save all and that those who have their free will restored are in some sense predestined to salvation. Throughout the entire framework of the Augustinian conception of grace and human free will, there really doesn't seem to be any place for free will. Before, it is too damaged to be considered free. And after, it is seized and made prisoner by God. It's a strange dichotomy between nihilism and tyranny. It's a crypto-monoenergism, if you will. This seems to me to contradict the example of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Who, at least in the Chalcedonian/post-Chalcedonian formulation, has both a human will and a divine will in a single person. Under this framework, I would argue that the question of grace vs. free will is entirely moot, and that the problem is obviated. Instead, human ambition and will ideally works in conjunction with God's will within the individual believer. The order of beginning simply doesn't matter. I think Cassian's formulation approaches this conception, so I prefer him to Augustine or even Pelagius, whose differences with Augustine were not all that great.

P.S. My apologies for the belated reply.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 03:10:09 AM by Rohzek »
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #217 on: February 24, 2017, 06:44:23 AM »
When you get right down to it, it's Orthodoxy, sedevacantism, moral relativism, or denial.  I really don't see a plausible alternative.
Nope. Did not want to post here anymore, but I can't refrain. NOPE.
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« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 06:51:49 AM by Lepanto »

Offline PJ26

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #218 on: February 24, 2017, 08:52:27 AM »
Hey Lepanto.  It can be difficult to leave and keep away from some of these discussions, right?   :)

As I mentioned some time back, I would love to be able to convince myself of the truth of Catholicism.  It would make my life SO much easier.  But it's not true.  It's close, but Orthodoxy is the Truth. 

So what do you see as the alternative to the options I presented?

Offline Lepanto

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