Author Topic: What all human beings want is love  (Read 36680 times)

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Offline hecma925

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #180 on: January 14, 2017, 04:18:28 PM »
May I just ask: Is there ever a chance that God REFUSES to forgive if one asks for forgiveness and wants forgiveness?


Sorry I don't understand

Luke 15:11-32
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Offline beebert

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #181 on: January 14, 2017, 04:42:22 PM »
May I just ask: Is there ever a chance that God REFUSES to forgive if one asks for forgiveness and wants forgiveness?


Sorry I don't understand

Luke 15:11-32

Yes the parable of the Lost son. I was very touched by it first time I read it 2 years ago. It spoke to me.
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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #182 on: January 14, 2017, 04:44:28 PM »
May I just ask: Is there ever a chance that God REFUSES to forgive if one asks for forgiveness and wants forgiveness?

Quote
Luke 17

3 Take heed to yourselves; if your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him; 4 and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

But does this apply to ALL human beings or just those who are saved?

Stop.

Would Jesus tell us to do something which he would not do?
No. So I am forgiven the moment I ask for it? Than I must be forgiven now, but I don 't feel forgiven...

What should being forgiven feel like, in your opinion? 
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Offline beebert

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #183 on: January 14, 2017, 05:04:25 PM »
May I just ask: Is there ever a chance that God REFUSES to forgive if one asks for forgiveness and wants forgiveness?

Quote
Luke 17

3 Take heed to yourselves; if your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him; 4 and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

But does this apply to ALL human beings or just those who are saved?

Stop.

Would Jesus tell us to do something which he would not do?
No. So I am forgiven the moment I ask for it? Than I must be forgiven now, but I don 't feel forgiven...

What should being forgiven feel like, in your opinion?

Like a spiritual resurrection, a joy, a feeling of being loved... Knowing in my heart with trust that God loves me and to love him back
« Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 05:06:11 PM by beebert »
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Offline vorgos

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #184 on: January 15, 2017, 03:31:33 AM »
May I just ask: Is there ever a chance that God REFUSES to forgive if one asks for forgiveness and wants forgiveness?

Quote
Luke 17

3 Take heed to yourselves; if your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him; 4 and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

But does this apply to ALL human beings or just those who are saved?

beebert, you seem to have a very different understanding of what it means to be saved than that of Orthodox Christians and that found in the New Testament. Please have a read through this...

From http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/how-are-we-saved
Quote
The reception of the gift of salvation is not a one-time event but a life-time process.  St. Paul employs the verb “to save” (sozesthai) in the past tense (“we have been saved,” Rom 8:24; Eph 2:5); in the present tense (“we are being saved,” 1 Cor 1:18; 15:2), and in the future tense (“we will be saved,” Rom 5:10).  He can think even of justification as a future event and part of the final judgment (Rom 2:13, 16).  For Paul, Christians are involved in a lifetime covenant with God in which we work, planting and watering, but it is “only God who gives the growth” (1 Cor 3:7).  We are “co-workers with God” (synergoi Theou, 1 Cor 3:9; 1 Thess 3:2). (Not “co-workers under God” as some translations would have it).  The mystery of salvation is a duet, not a solo.  It is a life-time engagement with God.  It has ups and downs, twists and turns, with opportunities to grow in the love of God, knowing that we can turn to Him again and again and receive forgiveness and a new birth.  When we come to Christ as sinners, we have no works to offer to Him, but only faith and repentance.  But once we come to Him and receive the gift of salvation, we enter into a sacred covenant to honor Him with good works.  We read in Ephesians:  “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God . . . [We are] created in Christ Jesus for good works” (Eph 2:8-10).
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Offline beebert

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #185 on: January 15, 2017, 04:59:34 AM »
May I just ask: Is there ever a chance that God REFUSES to forgive if one asks for forgiveness and wants forgiveness?

Quote
Luke 17

3 Take heed to yourselves; if your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him; 4 and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

But does this apply to ALL human beings or just those who are saved?

beebert, you seem to have a very different understanding of what it means to be saved than that of Orthodox Christians and that found in the New Testament. Please have a read through this...

From http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/how-are-we-saved
Quote
The reception of the gift of salvation is not a one-time event but a life-time process.  St. Paul employs the verb “to save” (sozesthai) in the past tense (“we have been saved,” Rom 8:24; Eph 2:5); in the present tense (“we are being saved,” 1 Cor 1:18; 15:2), and in the future tense (“we will be saved,” Rom 5:10).  He can think even of justification as a future event and part of the final judgment (Rom 2:13, 16).  For Paul, Christians are involved in a lifetime covenant with God in which we work, planting and watering, but it is “only God who gives the growth” (1 Cor 3:7).  We are “co-workers with God” (synergoi Theou, 1 Cor 3:9; 1 Thess 3:2). (Not “co-workers under God” as some translations would have it).  The mystery of salvation is a duet, not a solo.  It is a life-time engagement with God.  It has ups and downs, twists and turns, with opportunities to grow in the love of God, knowing that we can turn to Him again and again and receive forgiveness and a new birth.  When we come to Christ as sinners, we have no works to offer to Him, but only faith and repentance.  But once we come to Him and receive the gift of salvation, we enter into a sacred covenant to honor Him with good works.  We read in Ephesians:  “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God . . . [We are] created in Christ Jesus for good works” (Eph 2:8-10).

But what about Calvin and Luther? They must have gotten their ideas from experience. And obviously orthodoxy mean something similar but more complete. Salvation in orthodox is BOTH one time event(first through faith and repentance) AND process (Faith and Good Works ). But you need the first to get the second. The first is what sets you free from the devil. The second is how you handle and live with that freedom
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Offline beebert

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #186 on: January 15, 2017, 08:40:09 AM »
Sorry guys but I just have to ask this: IF eternal hell is really true and as horrible as described then isn't it better to avoid having children? I definately know I would never have kids if I knew there was a High risk they end up in hell. Isn't it better to avoid children since life is such a horrible place where Satan dwells and desceives most people anyway? Even Christ himself says to Judas for example that it would have been better of he had never been born.

Also, this makes me Think even more how insane and Cold hearted many calvinists must be. Since they believe in double predestination and that most people are damned, how can they come with such an evil idea as to have children? Isn't it evil to have a Child and believe that the chance that they escape eternal torture is like 5 percent?
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Offline ttcmacro

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #187 on: January 15, 2017, 01:38:23 PM »
Sorry guys but I just have to ask this: IF eternal hell is really true and as horrible as described then isn't it better to avoid having children? I definately know I would never have kids if I knew there was a High risk they end up in hell. Isn't it better to avoid children since life is such a horrible place where Satan dwells and desceives most people anyway? Even Christ himself says to Judas for example that it would have been better of he had never been born.

Also, this makes me Think even more how insane and Cold hearted many calvinists must be. Since they believe in double predestination and that most people are damned, how can they come with such an evil idea as to have children? Isn't it evil to have a Child and believe that the chance that they escape eternal torture is like 5 percent?

If I was a Calvinists, I would not have children. But I don't think the typical Calvinist reasons through this. Or perhaps they assume they should have children because doing so is God's will, regardless of the eternal outcome.

I hope that hell is empty. I know Jesus is willing to do whatever it takes to find the lost sheep and bring it back into the fold, whether all the sheep willingly come back is unknown. So with this eschatology, I have no concerns about having children.

Offline beebert

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #188 on: January 15, 2017, 02:27:05 PM »
Sorry guys but I just have to ask this: IF eternal hell is really true and as horrible as described then isn't it better to avoid having children? I definately know I would never have kids if I knew there was a High risk they end up in hell. Isn't it better to avoid children since life is such a horrible place where Satan dwells and desceives most people anyway? Even Christ himself says to Judas for example that it would have been better of he had never been born.

Also, this makes me Think even more how insane and Cold hearted many calvinists must be. Since they believe in double predestination and that most people are damned, how can they come with such an evil idea as to have children? Isn't it evil to have a Child and believe that the chance that they escape eternal torture is like 5 percent?

If I was a Calvinists, I would not have children. But I don't think the typical Calvinist reasons through this. Or perhaps they assume they should have children because doing so is God's will, regardless of the eternal outcome.

I hope that hell is empty. I know Jesus is willing to do whatever it takes to find the lost sheep and bring it back into the fold, whether all the sheep willingly come back is unknown. So with this eschatology, I have no concerns about having children.

And it is a much more humane eschatology. Otherwise life in itself is a mistake and of calvinism were true, having kids would be the one of the most wicked, immoral, selfish acts imaginable. And having abortion would be smart and moral, since aborted kids according to most calvinists don't go to hell. I mean, should not oneär a calvinist then try to spread a gospel of abortion then saying "have abortion, and your kids will be safe!". And also the christians who have abortion will not be judged according to calvinists, since they are eternally secured. It is just a sick system. I am very sad that calvinism exists at all.

Is there a possibility that hell is empty?
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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #189 on: January 15, 2017, 02:34:56 PM »
But what about Calvin and Luther? They must have gotten their ideas from experience.

Or from the devil.
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Offline beebert

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #190 on: January 15, 2017, 02:39:09 PM »
But what about Calvin and Luther? They must have gotten their ideas from experience.

Or from the devil.

You really Think so? I can understand suggesting that about Calvin since he himself actrd like a devil. But was Luther so horrible?
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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #191 on: January 15, 2017, 04:13:04 PM »
But what about Calvin and Luther? They must have gotten their ideas from experience.

Or from the devil.

You really Think so? I can understand suggesting that about Calvin since he himself actrd like a devil. But was Luther so horrible?

Yes. See his words and actions in response to the peasant wars.
Quote
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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #192 on: January 15, 2017, 04:14:59 PM »
From elsewhere:

Quote
Hi! May I ask : Can it Happen that God rejects a person who regret their sins and wants to be with him but that God rejects him Only because of his sins? Did he not do that with Saul and Esau? 

I'm not sure that Saul and Esau were rejected entirely by God.

Saul kept falling back into his sins over and over, especially his pride and fear of David - and, still, David honored him, and honored his covenant with Jonathan (to not destroy his house or his name).  There is no indication that Saul had a clear repentance, or desired one, before his death - he was still vengeful, even though he had been spared by David multiple times, and in each case said that he would not pursue him further.

Esau, while passed over for the blessing of the firstborn, was still provided for by the Lord - an inheritance for his nation, and the stern word to Moses that the children of Israel were not to attempt to displace his nation, since they were kin by Isaac.  There's no indication that Esau was unfaithful to the Lord as far as I can remember, and despite not receiving what he thought he was due, he and his people are still loved and protected by God as far as we can tell through the OT narrative.

Those who repent with their heart, even if they have committed horrible violations, are typically given some form of mercy by God.  Moses wasn't permitted to enter the promised land, but he was allowed to see it and be firm in the promise that the Lord would provide for the people.  Aaron was given the assurance that his lineage would continue to be ministers to the Lord despite his making the golden idols in the wilderness of Sinai.  David's repentance after the murder of Uriah was accepted by the Lord.  Solomon's name continues to be honored, despite his falling into idolatry in his latter years.  Peter betrayed his Master, Lord, and God in the most desperate hour and was redeemed by Him.  The Thief on the Cross was convicted to die, and "justly" by his own word, but entered paradise because of his repentance. 

As long as we draw breath, we have the opportunity to repair our relationship with God - we can repent, find mercy, and learn to love.  In the meantime, we will find times when we are blessed and not blessed according to our desires, but always blessed when doing His work with sincere faith and convicted action.

I hope this is helpful.  Discussion on the forum has its place and its use - but if you are being tormented by your sin, and despair of the mercy of God, then a face-to-face with your Orthodox parish priest is most appropriate.

May God bless you and have compassion upon you; may He shine the light of His countenance upon you, and have mercy on you.

+ Fr. George
« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 04:15:34 PM by Fr. George »
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Offline ttcmacro

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #193 on: January 15, 2017, 04:16:33 PM »
But what about Calvin and Luther? They must have gotten their ideas from experience.

Or from the devil.

You really Think so? I can understand suggesting that about Calvin since he himself actrd like a devil. But was Luther so horrible?

I'm interested in how Mor Ephrem will respond to this. I don't think he is saying that Luther acted like a devil necessarily, but the devil gave  him some of his ideas. I think this is a plausible. Many of Luther's doctrines such as Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide are very problematic, and eventually was the starting point of Calvinism. That being said, I have a lot of personal sympathy toward Luther. He was dealing with a very corrupt point in the history of the Latin Church, and certainly suffered from extreme anxiety due to some of the teachings.

I think there is certainly a possibility the hell will be empty. There are plenty of people smarter and holier than I that believe this to be something that can be reasonably hoped for.

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #194 on: January 15, 2017, 04:25:33 PM »
But what about Calvin and Luther? They must have gotten their ideas from experience.

Or from the devil.

You really Think so? I can understand suggesting that about Calvin since he himself actrd like a devil. But was Luther so horrible?

I'm interested in how Mor Ephrem will respond to this. I don't think he is saying that Luther acted like a devil necessarily, but the devil gave  him some of his ideas. I think this is a plausible. Many of Luther's doctrines such as Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide are very problematic, and eventually was the starting point of Calvinism. That being said, I have a lot of personal sympathy toward Luther. He was dealing with a very corrupt point in the history of the Latin Church, and certainly suffered from extreme anxiety due to some of the teachings.

I think there is certainly a possibility the hell will be empty. There are plenty of people smarter and holier than I that believe this to be something that can be reasonably hoped for.

I don't typically presume to speak for Mor, but I believe his underlying point is, "Not every idea that seems good, popular, etc. to us comes from God; they may come from His enemy, wrapped in such a way as to make us think that they're His."  For us, this is often the lens through which we see the work of people like Luther and Calvin - I don't think those men set out to (a) divide the church, or (b) become heresiarchs, but from our POV they took ideas that were planted by the divider and ran with them.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 04:27:05 PM by Fr. George »
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Offline beebert

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #195 on: January 15, 2017, 06:22:37 PM »
I would be happy if both Calvin and Luther were totally wrong. Only place I find little hope is in the orthodox church, that is why I am converting. The problem is that the experience I had was very lutheran. The encounter I had with God two years ago, which was dramatic, and my previous life and what has happened after my encounter with God which I failed to live up to, when I said "no" to him I guess one can say since I failed to live up to what he wanted me to do, is an experience which best fits Luther's descritiption of sin and salvation since I had lived a depraved life before the encounter with Jesus and then felt how filthy sin was. And then when I kept on sinning instead of saying yes to Christ I have, since I realized my sins and wanted to turn away from them, felt that I am totally depraved and incapable of turning back to God and that is why I have feared Luther is right. Though I must say I have FEARED it, since his theology gives me no hope, while orthodoxy does.
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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #196 on: January 15, 2017, 06:54:53 PM »
What should being forgiven feel like, in your opinion?

Like a spiritual resurrection, a joy, a feeling of being loved... Knowing in my heart with trust that God loves me and to love him back

I don't see much in Scripture about feeling forgiven and what that's like.  Have I missed a passage?   
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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #197 on: January 15, 2017, 06:57:30 PM »
But what about Calvin and Luther? They must have gotten their ideas from experience.

Or from the devil.

You really Think so? I can understand suggesting that about Calvin since he himself actrd like a devil. But was Luther so horrible?

I'm interested in how Mor Ephrem will respond to this. I don't think he is saying that Luther acted like a devil necessarily, but the devil gave  him some of his ideas. I think this is a plausible. Many of Luther's doctrines such as Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide are very problematic, and eventually was the starting point of Calvinism. That being said, I have a lot of personal sympathy toward Luther. He was dealing with a very corrupt point in the history of the Latin Church, and certainly suffered from extreme anxiety due to some of the teachings.

I think there is certainly a possibility the hell will be empty. There are plenty of people smarter and holier than I that believe this to be something that can be reasonably hoped for.

I don't typically presume to speak for Mor, but I believe his underlying point is, "Not every idea that seems good, popular, etc. to us comes from God; they may come from His enemy, wrapped in such a way as to make us think that they're His."  For us, this is often the lens through which we see the work of people like Luther and Calvin - I don't think those men set out to (a) divide the church, or (b) become heresiarchs, but from our POV they took ideas that were planted by the divider and ran with them.

You can presume to speak for Mor. 
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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #198 on: January 15, 2017, 07:05:12 PM »
I can't help but think of a Beatles song, whenever I see this thread. :P
« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 07:09:11 PM by byhisgrace »
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Offline beebert

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #199 on: January 15, 2017, 07:15:26 PM »
What should being forgiven feel like, in your opinion?

Like a spiritual resurrection, a joy, a feeling of being loved... Knowing in my heart with trust that God loves me and to love him back

I don't see much in Scripture about feeling forgiven and what that's like.  Have I missed a passage?   
No of course not, but we must have something to base things on no? How did Paul know he was forgiven? Augustine? Starets Silouan? It's mostly based on my experience. I felt loved by God and it gave me purpose in life and so on but I failed to follow him
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Offline ttcmacro

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #200 on: January 15, 2017, 07:35:38 PM »
I would be happy if both Calvin and Luther were totally wrong. Only place I find little hope is in the orthodox church, that is why I am converting.

Of course they are wrong ;D. I think you have to be a little careful extrapolating that "Luther was right" based on your conversion experience. There have obviously been Orthodox with dramatic conversions. I don't think such a conversion lends support for the idea of total depravity. While you may have been sinning, this does not mean that you never did a kind act or other good deed.

I know you are struggling now, but I think converting to Orthodoxy will help you with these issues. It is not a silver bullet that will put away your anxiety immediately, but it is a treatment that will work over time. 

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #201 on: January 15, 2017, 07:54:20 PM »
I do have a guru smoking pipe for fresh cut tobacco.
Learn meditation.

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #202 on: January 15, 2017, 07:57:33 PM »
What should being forgiven feel like, in your opinion?

Like a spiritual resurrection, a joy, a feeling of being loved... Knowing in my heart with trust that God loves me and to love him back

I don't see much in Scripture about feeling forgiven and what that's like.  Have I missed a passage?   
No of course not, but we must have something to base things on no?

If you base yourself on feelings, your foundation is built on sand. 

Quote
How did Paul know he was forgiven? Augustine? Starets Silouan? It's mostly based on my experience. I felt loved by God and it gave me purpose in life and so on but I failed to follow him

Forgiveness is not a feeling.  It is action, choice, life. 
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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #203 on: January 15, 2017, 07:58:07 PM »
I do have a guru smoking pipe for fresh cut tobacco.

Molasses.
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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #204 on: January 15, 2017, 09:08:35 PM »
What should being forgiven feel like, in your opinion?

Like a spiritual resurrection, a joy, a feeling of being loved... Knowing in my heart with trust that God loves me and to love him back

I don't see much in Scripture about feeling forgiven and what that's like.  Have I missed a passage?   
No of course not, but we must have something to base things on no? How did Paul know he was forgiven? Augustine? Starets Silouan? It's mostly based on my experience. I felt loved by God and it gave me purpose in life and so on but I failed to follow him

What is this experience doing for you now, other than bring you to despair? You keep referring back to it as something wonderful but it seems to be, for you, a proof of your damnation because you can't get it back. If I may be so bold, perhaps you should question whether the feeling really came from God.
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“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #205 on: January 15, 2017, 09:17:33 PM »
beebert, I think a lot of good things have been said here already, but on the off chance this may be helpful, allow me to be a bit of a grammar nerd for a minute.  'Love' and 'forgive' are both transitive verbs--actions done by a subject, and necessarily to an object.  How they are done, their completeness and perfection, are entirely dependent on the subject, not the object.  In both of these cases, God is the subject and we are the object(s).  So the real question is whether you trust that God is able to love and forgive completely and perfectly.  And while we're talking about transitive verbs, 'trust' is one, also.  But now we are the subject and God is the object.  Being imperfect, we will trust imperfectly, but we can still trust to the best of our ability and pray for what we lack.  As someone quoted up-thread, "I believe, help my unbelief."

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #206 on: January 16, 2017, 06:28:10 AM »
What should being forgiven feel like, in your opinion?

Like a spiritual resurrection, a joy, a feeling of being loved... Knowing in my heart with trust that God loves me and to love him back

I don't see much in Scripture about feeling forgiven and what that's like.  Have I missed a passage?   
No of course not, but we must have something to base things on no?

If you base yourself on feelings, your foundation is built on sand. 

Quote
How did Paul know he was forgiven? Augustine? Starets Silouan? It's mostly based on my experience. I felt loved by God and it gave me purpose in life and so on but I failed to follow him

Forgiveness is not a feeling.  It is action, choice, life.

Maybe But that action recquires the grace of God right?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #207 on: January 16, 2017, 06:30:31 AM »
beebert, I think a lot of good things have been said here already, but on the off chance this may be helpful, allow me to be a bit of a grammar nerd for a minute.  'Love' and 'forgive' are both transitive verbs--actions done by a subject, and necessarily to an object.  How they are done, their completeness and perfection, are entirely dependent on the subject, not the object.  In both of these cases, God is the subject and we are the object(s).  So the real question is whether you trust that God is able to love and forgive completely and perfectly.  And while we're talking about transitive verbs, 'trust' is one, also.  But now we are the subject and God is the object.  Being imperfect, we will trust imperfectly, but we can still trust to the best of our ability and pray for what we lack.  As someone quoted up-thread, "I believe, help my unbelief."

Thank you for this it was a Nice comment. But my doubt lies in me doubting God's willingness to forgive me, since I imagine that in order for him to fforgive me it must in some way be revealed within me that he has
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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #208 on: January 16, 2017, 12:11:01 PM »
Forgiveness is not a feeling.  It is action, choice, life.

Maybe But that action recquires the grace of God right?

Yes.
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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #209 on: January 16, 2017, 12:11:45 PM »
beebert, I think a lot of good things have been said here already, but on the off chance this may be helpful, allow me to be a bit of a grammar nerd for a minute.  'Love' and 'forgive' are both transitive verbs--actions done by a subject, and necessarily to an object.  How they are done, their completeness and perfection, are entirely dependent on the subject, not the object.  In both of these cases, God is the subject and we are the object(s).  So the real question is whether you trust that God is able to love and forgive completely and perfectly.  And while we're talking about transitive verbs, 'trust' is one, also.  But now we are the subject and God is the object.  Being imperfect, we will trust imperfectly, but we can still trust to the best of our ability and pray for what we lack.  As someone quoted up-thread, "I believe, help my unbelief."

Thank you for this it was a Nice comment. But my doubt lies in me doubting God's willingness to forgive me, since I imagine that in order for him to fforgive me it must in some way be revealed within me that he has

More problems. 
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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #210 on: January 16, 2017, 12:24:51 PM »
Forgiveness is not a feeling.  It is action, choice, life.

Maybe But that action recquires the grace of God right?

Yes.

And I have fallen from grace
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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #211 on: January 16, 2017, 12:28:41 PM »
You can presume to speak for Mor.   

Signature updated.
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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #212 on: January 16, 2017, 12:29:45 PM »
Mor has spoken through George... this is the faith of the fathers!
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #213 on: January 16, 2017, 12:33:22 PM »
Mor has spoken through George... this is the faith of the fathers!

Do the canons allow channelling? :P
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #214 on: January 16, 2017, 12:33:48 PM »
Forgiveness is not a feeling.  It is action, choice, life.
Maybe But that action recquires the grace of God right?
Yes.
And I have fallen from grace 

"Fallen from grace" is a phrase that has its uses, but as a statement about our relationship to God it is impossible.  You're assuming that Grace is given (a) sparingly, (b) in limited situations, and (c) to limited people.  But He grants grace to all in the measure that they require it; but we reject and disassociate from it by our disposition and action.  Humility breaks down the walls that we erect, and allows that Grace to penetrate our hearts.  (Really, this is a key idea in Orthodox spirituality, that we harden a layer around our hearts, and thus require compunction - piercing through the hardened layer  - in order to allow God's grace to enter.)
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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #215 on: January 16, 2017, 01:36:45 PM »
Forgiveness is not a feeling.  It is action, choice, life.
Maybe But that action recquires the grace of God right?
Yes.
And I have fallen from grace 

"Fallen from grace" is a phrase that has its uses, but as a statement about our relationship to God it is impossible.  You're assuming that Grace is given (a) sparingly, (b) in limited situations, and (c) to limited people.  But He grants grace to all in the measure that they require it; but we reject and disassociate from it by our disposition and action.  Humility breaks down the walls that we erect, and allows that Grace to penetrate our hearts.  (Really, this is a key idea in Orthodox spirituality, that we harden a layer around our hearts, and thus require compunction - piercing through the hardened layer  - in order to allow God's grace to enter.)

Yes I know and I really love this about orthodoxy. For example is starets Silouan one of my favorite Saints. He laid much stress on humility. But the thing is it seems to me that it is God's grace that MAKES one humble. Or is it not so? Also, I know why have fallen from grace, it is because of my sins
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 01:37:49 PM by beebert »
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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #216 on: January 17, 2017, 11:00:32 AM »
May I just ask this: If I confess my sins to the Priest, I can be 100 percent sure I am forgiven by God when he says I am, is that correct?
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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #217 on: January 17, 2017, 11:30:47 AM »
May I just ask this: If I confess my sins to the Priest, I can be 100 percent sure I am forgiven by God when he says I am, is that correct?

The Lord said so Himself!  Matthew 18:18, John 20:23, Matthew 16:19, et al.  If the priest reads the prayer on earth asking for forgiveness, then we by faith recognize that the Lord Himself said he will forgive the sins in heaven.
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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #218 on: January 17, 2017, 11:35:35 AM »
May I just ask this: If I confess my sins to the Priest, I can be 100 percent sure I am forgiven by God when he says I am, is that correct?

The Lord said so Himself!  Matthew 18:18, John 20:23, Matthew 16:19, et al.  If the priest reads the prayer on earth asking for forgiveness, then we by faith recognize that the Lord Himself said he will forgive the sins in heaven.

Yes but then my fears within me says "But what if I have comitted the unforgivable sin?"
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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #219 on: January 17, 2017, 11:57:12 AM »
May I just ask this: If I confess my sins to the Priest, I can be 100 percent sure I am forgiven by God when he says I am, is that correct?

The Lord said so Himself!  Matthew 18:18, John 20:23, Matthew 16:19, et al.  If the priest reads the prayer on earth asking for forgiveness, then we by faith recognize that the Lord Himself said he will forgive the sins in heaven.

Yes but then my fears within me says "But what if I have comitted the unforgivable sin?"

Then your fear comes from the devil. Ignore it, or fight it and rebuke it, because it is a lie.

One thing I would add to Fr. George's remark- your sins are forgiven at confession, but do not expect necessarily a "feeling" of forgiveness or a spiritual high. Passions and bad habits continue, and so will the struggle.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #220 on: January 17, 2017, 12:00:14 PM »
May I just ask this: If I confess my sins to the Priest, I can be 100 percent sure I am forgiven by God when he says I am, is that correct?

The Lord said so Himself!  Matthew 18:18, John 20:23, Matthew 16:19, et al.  If the priest reads the prayer on earth asking for forgiveness, then we by faith recognize that the Lord Himself said he will forgive the sins in heaven.

Yes but then my fears within me says "But what if I have comitted the unforgivable sin?"

Then your fear comes from the devil. Ignore it, or fight it and rebuke it, because it is a lie.

One thing I would add to Fr. George's remark- your sins are forgiven at confession, but do not expect necessarily a "feeling" of forgiveness or a spiritual high. Passions and bad habits continue, and so will the struggle.

Okay Thank you very much. I will do what I can to trust it fully that I am forgiven when I ask for forgiveness. I wonder though, what is the orthodox view of the unforgivable sin?
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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #221 on: January 18, 2017, 12:04:43 PM »
What do you guys think of pastors like John Macarthur and John Piper?
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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #222 on: January 18, 2017, 12:12:30 PM »
What do you guys think of pastors like John Macarthur and John Piper?

You already know what we think of Calvinism. Why do you need to ask our opinion about individual Calvinist preacher X?

May I just ask this: If I confess my sins to the Priest, I can be 100 percent sure I am forgiven by God when he says I am, is that correct?

The Lord said so Himself!  Matthew 18:18, John 20:23, Matthew 16:19, et al.  If the priest reads the prayer on earth asking for forgiveness, then we by faith recognize that the Lord Himself said he will forgive the sins in heaven.

Yes but then my fears within me says "But what if I have comitted the unforgivable sin?"

Then your fear comes from the devil. Ignore it, or fight it and rebuke it, because it is a lie.

One thing I would add to Fr. George's remark- your sins are forgiven at confession, but do not expect necessarily a "feeling" of forgiveness or a spiritual high. Passions and bad habits continue, and so will the struggle.

Okay Thank you very much. I will do what I can to trust it fully that I am forgiven when I ask for forgiveness. I wonder though, what is the orthodox view of the unforgivable sin?

You can find lots of discussions of this online. Such as here: https://oca.org/reflections/fr.-lawrence-farley/what-is-the-unforgivable-sin
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline ttcmacro

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #223 on: January 18, 2017, 08:00:20 PM »
What do you guys think of pastors like John Macarthur and John Piper?

I think they are deluded.

Personally, I usually don't listen to pastors or read theologians who are not Orthodox. There are a few exceptions (I like reading N.T. Wright for example, but his theology is much closer to Orthodoxy than most Protestants). I certainly don't listen to Calvinists, I think their theology is psychological poison.

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #224 on: January 19, 2017, 01:08:25 AM »
I certainly don't listen to Calvinists, I think their theology is psychological poison.

+1
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