Author Topic: What all human beings want is love  (Read 28615 times)

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Offline Fr. George

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #90 on: January 10, 2017, 01:40:31 PM »
There's a lot going on in this thread...

Re: difficult Old Testament passages - do you weep for the Amalekites but not for Sodom?  And what of Nineveh?  What of Noah's neighbors, who ate and drank without care until the day of the flood? The passage about the Amalekites is not the first or last that recalls the accomplished or intended destruction of a people.  But we also don't know what else transpired in the meantime.  In some of the cases, it's clear that what was being blotted out was wickedness - not sin through deception (like Eve and Adam), but willing cooperation with the tempter.  We know that God sent a messenger to Nineveh to try and turn their hearts, and had Abraham and Lot advocating for Sodom when the He went to test them - do we know that He did not do so for the nations that he swept away before Israel?

Where is the accountability for one's actions?  The law of the Old Covenant is couched in its context - a context that is contained in the text if one considers it.  When the Lord gives the law, He also makes it clear that the other nations in the land of Canaan violate the law (that is to say, commit all kinds of sexual perversion, violence, retribution without justification, theft, etc.) and have hardened their hearts against Him.  The major limitation of the OT is that it does not fully document the Lord's attempts at relationships with the other nations - it's clear from the text that He did indeed interact with them, and it's clear that He is angry with their moral lawlessness. 

Accountability is key for free will, no?  Universalism fails at this key point - what of those who know God and choose to reject Him?  We like to think that it's impossible - you can't really know Him and reject Him - but it's been done before!  Apokatastasis eliminates free will.  At least with the view that both Heaven and Hell are experienced within the presence of God there is a manifestation of that choice - that those who reject Him are tormented by that rejection as they live through eternity surrounded by the One Who Is everywhere present and filling all things.

As for those not exposed to the salvific message - we know how they will be judged, as St. Paul says in his letter to the Romans: " for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them" (NKJV)

I sincerly doubt that God loves all. I am sorry. But to me he seems to want to damn just as much as he wants to save. I have tried to be forgiven for 6 months. It has not helped. I can make things undone. God damned me. He doesn't answet anymore. Read romans 9 and read John 12. It is obvious that God doesn't want to save all. That we can do nothing to be saved. It is conpletely in God's hands and when you blew the one chance you get you are screwed. Everybody has to go through a conversion like St  Paul and Augustine did and when you realize God is now willing to forgive you on the cross and you don't take the oppurtunity you are damned.

There's one of your problems.

I'm with Mor.  When you fall, pick yourself back up.  The Lord, both in the OT and NT, directs us to repent when we sin - that even if we are to be cast out of the community, we are to still strive to repair our relationship with Him and with His people.  He answers when you're ready to hear, in a way that fits His assessment of your needs, not your own.  If you want to judge Him by your standards, then you're worshiping a man-made god, not the Living God.

If God forgave me when I asked I would have known so. By Faith.

If sin is like a mud that clouds our vision, habitual sin cakes on and forms a shell.  Sometimes we cannot see the forgiveness granted until we've (a) ended the sin, and (b) broken away from the encasement it's set up around us.

But he doesn't grand me Faith. 

Since we're referencing without quoting: Mark 9:24

God's existence is not Only something that han be Believed can also be felt and revealed. He does not reveal himself to me Any longer since I did exactly the worst thing imaginable: the sin described in Hebrew 6.4-6

Will the Lord who said what He did in Luke 17:4 treat you this way?  How about the Lord Who forgave his most beloved David?
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #91 on: January 10, 2017, 01:42:30 PM »
Predestination means that God decides who to save aand not no? Hebrew 6 says what it says. You can not crucify Jesus twice. In order for me to be saved I would have to crucify Christ again. I already did "crucify" him 2 years ago.

You need to get off the computer, go to a priest, and have a soul-searching confession, not this.
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Offline beebert

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #92 on: January 10, 2017, 01:59:06 PM »
There's a lot going on in this thread...

Re: difficult Old Testament passages - do you weep for the Amalekites but not for Sodom?  And what of Nineveh?  What of Noah's neighbors, who ate and drank without care until the day of the flood? The passage about the Amalekites is not the first or last that recalls the accomplished or intended destruction of a people.  But we also don't know what else transpired in the meantime.  In some of the cases, it's clear that what was being blotted out was wickedness - not sin through deception (like Eve and Adam), but willing cooperation with the tempter.  We know that God sent a messenger to Nineveh to try and turn their hearts, and had Abraham and Lot advocating for Sodom when the He went to test them - do we know that He did not do so for the nations that he swept away before Israel?

Where is the accountability for one's actions?  The law of the Old Covenant is couched in its context - a context that is contained in the text if one considers it.  When the Lord gives the law, He also makes it clear that the other nations in the land of Canaan violate the law (that is to say, commit all kinds of sexual perversion, violence, retribution without justification, theft, etc.) and have hardened their hearts against Him.  The major limitation of the OT is that it does not fully document the Lord's attempts at relationships with the other nations - it's clear from the text that He did indeed interact with them, and it's clear that He is angry with their moral lawlessness. 

Accountability is key for free will, no?  Universalism fails at this key point - what of those who know God and choose to reject Him?  We like to think that it's impossible - you can't really know Him and reject Him - but it's been done before!  Apokatastasis eliminates free will.  At least with the view that both Heaven and Hell are experienced within the presence of God there is a manifestation of that choice - that those who reject Him are tormented by that rejection as they live through eternity surrounded by the One Who Is everywhere present and filling all things.

As for those not exposed to the salvific message - we know how they will be judged, as St. Paul says in his letter to the Romans: " for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them" (NKJV)

I sincerly doubt that God loves all. I am sorry. But to me he seems to want to damn just as much as he wants to save. I have tried to be forgiven for 6 months. It has not helped. I can make things undone. God damned me. He doesn't answet anymore. Read romans 9 and read John 12. It is obvious that God doesn't want to save all. That we can do nothing to be saved. It is conpletely in God's hands and when you blew the one chance you get you are screwed. Everybody has to go through a conversion like St  Paul and Augustine did and when you realize God is now willing to forgive you on the cross and you don't take the oppurtunity you are damned.

There's one of your problems.

I'm with Mor.  When you fall, pick yourself back up.  The Lord, both in the OT and NT, directs us to repent when we sin - that even if we are to be cast out of the community, we are to still strive to repair our relationship with Him and with His people.  He answers when you're ready to hear, in a way that fits His assessment of your needs, not your own.  If you want to judge Him by your standards, then you're worshiping a man-made god, not the Living God.

If God forgave me when I asked I would have known so. By Faith.

If sin is like a mud that clouds our vision, habitual sin cakes on and forms a shell.  Sometimes we cannot see the forgiveness granted until we've (a) ended the sin, and (b) broken away from the encasement it's set up around us.

But he doesn't grand me Faith. 

Since we're referencing without quoting: Mark 9:24

God's existence is not Only something that han be Believed can also be felt and revealed. He does not reveal himself to me Any longer since I did exactly the worst thing imaginable: the sin described in Hebrew 6.4-6

Will the Lord who said what He did in Luke 17:4 treat you this way?  How about the Lord Who forgave his most beloved David?

About rejecting God... I do fear I did reject him 2 years ago when I KNOW he revealed himself to me and now afterwards I have understood that he offered me salvation. God was the one who looked me up and not the other way around... when it comes to David he was probably already saved before his sin and therefore it was easier to forgive him. I have to go to the cross all over again which is impossible. Before I felt the living Word. It was alive. Now when I read the bible it is just dead Words. It is horrible. Apolatastasis might fail there But not necesarilly. Since hell can be meant as something purifying rather than retributive. But I don't know... Anyway. Those who are saved clearly knows they are because they know what Christ have done for them personally. I know what Christ would have done to me it I didn't sin instead of repenting but now I only live knowing what I did against him and mostly my self.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 02:01:23 PM by beebert »

Offline beebert

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #93 on: January 10, 2017, 02:20:50 PM »
And doesn't Christ's teachings only apply to his own? To those who are saved and love him? To those who have been forgiven through the cross?

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #94 on: January 10, 2017, 02:22:49 PM »
Regarding the "free will" defense of eternal hell, I found this comment by David Bentley Hart to succinctly address it:

"... [F]reedom as defined in a purely voluntarist, spontaneous, atelic movement of the will–pure libertarian freedom–might be denied by the doctrine of apokatastasis. But that is a logically incoherent model of freedom in any event. The classical Platonic-Aristotelian-Christian understanding of freedom is one in which the rational will of necessity, when set free from ignorance, wills the good end of its own nature; and perfect freedom is the power to achieve that end without hindrance. Thus God is perfectly free precisely because he cannot work evil, which is to say nothing can prevent him from realizing his nature as the infinite Good. Similarly, for Gregory of Nyssa or Gregory of Nazianzus, perfect freedom is liberation from the fetters of ignorance that constrain the rational will from seeing the Good as what it is. For Augustine, the highest freedom is the perfection of human nature in a condition of “non posse peccare.” For Maximus, the natural will is free because it tends inexorably towards God, and the gnomic will is free precisely to the degree that it comes into harmony with the natural will. And so on. Since, after all, all employments of the will are teleological–necessarily intentionally directed towards an end, either clearly or obscurely known by the intellect–and since the Good is the final cause of all movements of the will, no choice of evil can be free in a meaningful sense. For evil is not an end, and so can be chosen under the delusion that it is in some sense a good in respect of the soul (even if, in moral terms, one is aware that one is choosing what is conventionally regarded as “evil”); and no choice made in ignorance can be a free choice.

In simple terms, if a deranged man chooses to slash himself with a knife or set fire to himself, you would not be interfering with his “freedom” by preventing him from doing so. You would be rescuing him from his slavery to madness. This is why the free-will defense of the idea of an eternal hell is essentially gibberish."
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But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline beebert

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #95 on: January 10, 2017, 02:29:01 PM »
David Bentley Hart is obviously a universalist.

I believe in all three. I think universalism is the one I most Hope for, eternal hell the one that seems Most likely according to scripture but  anihillation seems to be the most logical and fair one to me.


"Like Spinoza, Einstein was a strict determinist who believed that human behavior was completely determined by causal laws."

I quoted this Only to say that there is a reason why most great thinkers have considered the will to be unfree. The will is free Only in the moment itis given the offer to say yes or now to salvation by God. For the saved, for those under the grace of God, the will is free. But those who are still natural men are bound by necessity. 
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 02:42:45 PM by beebert »

Offline beebert

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #96 on: January 10, 2017, 02:42:11 PM »

David Bentley Hart is obviously a universalist.

I believe in all three. I think universalism is the one I most Hope for, eternal hell the one that seems Most likely according to scripture but  anihillation seems to be the most logical and fair one to me.

"Like Spinoza, Einstein was a strict determinist who believed that human behavior was completely determined by causal laws."

I quoted this Only to say that there is a reason why most great thinkers have considered the will to be unfree. The will is free Only in the moment itis given the offer to say yes or now to salvation by God. For the saved, for those under the grace of God, the will is free. But those who are still natural men are bound by necessity. 
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 02:43:30 PM by beebert »

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #97 on: January 10, 2017, 02:52:40 PM »
Predestination means that God decides who to save aand not no? Hebrew 6 says what it says. You can not crucify Jesus twice. In order for me to be saved I would have to crucify Christ again. I already did "crucify" him 2 years ago.

You need to get off the computer, go to a priest, and have a soul-searching confession, not this.

^This. 

Besides, beebert, AFAIK, is not yet Orthodox.  Worrying about "crucifying Christ again" before he has entered into the paschal mystery through baptismal regeneration is a sort of misguided zeal.  But insisting on that zeal rather than the gospel as taught by the Church is pride and worse than whatever he thinks he did when he kissed some girl.     
Just grab them by prayer.


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The Church's bridegroom was never the Byzantine Empire.

Offline beebert

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #98 on: January 10, 2017, 02:55:19 PM »
Predestination means that God decides who to save aand not no? Hebrew 6 says what it says. You can not crucify Jesus twice. In order for me to be saved I would have to crucify Christ again. I already did "crucify" him 2 years ago.

You need to get off the computer, go to a priest, and have a soul-searching confession, not this.

^This. 

Besides, beebert, AFAIK, is not yet Orthodox.  Worrying about "crucifying Christ again" before he has entered into the paschal mystery through baptismal regeneration is a sort of misguided zeal.  But insisting on that zeal rather than the gospel as taught by the Church is pride and worse than whatever he thinks he did when he kissed some girl.     

I do not doubt that I am proudful. I know I am and I Hate it.

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #99 on: January 10, 2017, 03:01:17 PM »
Predestination means that God decides who to save aand not no? Hebrew 6 says what it says. You can not crucify Jesus twice. In order for me to be saved I would have to crucify Christ again. I already did "crucify" him 2 years ago.

You need to get off the computer, go to a priest, and have a soul-searching confession, not this.

^This. 

Besides, beebert, AFAIK, is not yet Orthodox.  Worrying about "crucifying Christ again" before he has entered into the paschal mystery through baptismal regeneration is a sort of misguided zeal.  But insisting on that zeal rather than the gospel as taught by the Church is pride and worse than whatever he thinks he did when he kissed some girl.     

I do not doubt that I am proudful. I know I am and I Hate it.

That's the very first thing you're going to have to address.  Not how God was mean to Amalekites or whatever. 
Just grab them by prayer.


Mor has spoken through George... this is the faith of the fathers!

The Church's bridegroom was never the Byzantine Empire.

Offline beebert

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #100 on: January 10, 2017, 03:05:56 PM »
Okay I Guess you are right. I just don't know what to do anymore. Salvation brings freedom. I know l would have beenxsaved 2 years ago if I confessed. Now I am not Free and make the conclusion I am not saved. And I don't feel God calling me anymore like I did before...

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #101 on: January 10, 2017, 03:07:59 PM »
Okay I Guess you are right. I just don't know what to do anymore. Salvation brings freedom. I know l would have beenxsaved 2 years ago if I confessed. Now I am not Free and make the conclusion I am not saved. And I don't feel God calling me anymore like I did before...
"Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down." (Revelation 12:10)
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Offline beebert

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #102 on: January 10, 2017, 03:12:14 PM »
How does the orthodox church view Nikolai Berdyaev? He has in my opinion some excellent views on christianity.

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #103 on: January 10, 2017, 03:15:56 PM »
Okay I Guess you are right. I just don't know what to do anymore.

Do what Fr George told you to do. 
Just grab them by prayer.


Mor has spoken through George... this is the faith of the fathers!

The Church's bridegroom was never the Byzantine Empire.

Offline beebert

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #104 on: January 10, 2017, 03:17:36 PM »
Okay I Guess you are right. I just don't know what to do anymore.

Do what Fr George told you to do.

Cofess to a Priest? I will certainly do that.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #105 on: January 10, 2017, 03:24:53 PM »
Okay I Guess you are right. I just don't know what to do anymore.

Do what Fr George told you to do.

Cofess to a Priest? I will certainly do that.

Yes.  You should discuss your issues with and confess your sins to a priest and listen to his advice.  Nothing you're doing here is really helping you. 
Just grab them by prayer.


Mor has spoken through George... this is the faith of the fathers!

The Church's bridegroom was never the Byzantine Empire.

Offline beebert

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #106 on: January 10, 2017, 04:34:09 PM »
Okay I Guess you are right. I just don't know what to do anymore.

Do what Fr George told you to do.

Cofess to a Priest? I will certainly do that.

Yes.  You should discuss your issues with and confess your sins to a priest and listen to his advice.  Nothing you're doing here is really helping you.

yes you are right. I would still be interested to know other's view on the question of free will. My experience tells me the will is not free but bound by necessity, basically by the law of cause and effect and that through Christ one can become free from this unfree bondage of the will. But one needs the grace of God for that which enables one to choose Christ which is to choose freedom. Without it it is impossible.

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #107 on: January 10, 2017, 04:43:15 PM »
yes you are right. I would still be interested to know other's view on the question of free will. My experience tells me the will is not free but bound by necessity, basically by the law of cause and effect and that through Christ one can become free from this unfree bondage of the will. But one needs the grace of God for that which enables one to choose Christ which is to choose freedom. Without it it is impossible.

Grace is abundantly given; it is experienced best when sincere faith leads us to act out our faith in a way pleasing to God (which is why we don't have the faith/works/grace separation that some do; you need all 3!).

Example:  faith that God forgives those who truly repent leads us to the action of confession (and trust in the confessor), which is met with the grace of forgiveness (through the word of the confessor) and the strength to begin true repentance (including the changing of lifestyle, etc.).
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Offline beebert

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #108 on: January 10, 2017, 04:55:14 PM »
so salvation according to orthodoxy then is not a one time event but more of a life time proecess of confession and repentance? And so one can say that everytime we confess our sins we are "saved"?

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #109 on: January 10, 2017, 04:58:55 PM »
Insofar as a will is bound by sin and passions, it is not free. Outside of alignment with God's will and purpose, there is no freedom. Whether one accepts the idea of eternal hell or not, the use of "free will" as an explanation for it falls flat because no meaningful Christian sense of freedom would recognize an eternal rejection of God as free.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #110 on: January 10, 2017, 05:51:08 PM »
Insofar as a will is bound by sin and passions, it is not free. Outside of alignment with God's will and purpose, there is no freedom. Whether one accepts the idea of eternal hell or not, the use of "free will" as an explanation for it falls flat because no meaningful Christian sense of freedom would recognize an eternal rejection of God as free.
So you do not believe in eternal hell?

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #111 on: January 11, 2017, 10:09:38 AM »
Insofar as a will is bound by sin and passions, it is not free. Outside of alignment with God's will and purpose, there is no freedom. Whether one accepts the idea of eternal hell or not, the use of "free will" as an explanation for it falls flat because no meaningful Christian sense of freedom would recognize an eternal rejection of God as free.

I was called but didn't follow out God's calling. Now OF Course if I knew better 2 years ago, if someone had put a Sign over my face that Said "IF YOU DO THIS YOU WILL LOSE GOD WHO CERTAINLY EXISTS, AND YOU WILL HAVE A MISERABLE LIFE AND THEN BURN IN HELL FOREVER" I would NOT have chosen wrong. If I had back then the slighest knowledge of thé consequences I wouldn't have chosen eternal hell over eternal life.

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #112 on: January 11, 2017, 10:27:02 AM »
Beebert, if I may play armchair internet psychologist, it honestly sounds like you have deep-seated anxieties/neuroses/whatever that are manifesting as religious terror and interfering with your ability to reason or read properly. It seems like you almost want us to tell you, "Yep, you're damned." I think the advice others gave to confess and talk to a priest is good, but it will only take you so far if you close yourself off to any counsel that contradicts what I can only describe as your spiritual masochism.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #113 on: January 11, 2017, 10:40:06 AM »
Beebert, if I may play armchair internet psychologist, it honestly sounds like you have deep-seated anxieties/neuroses/whatever that are manifesting as religious terror and interfering with your ability to reason or read properly. It seems like you almost want us to tell you, "Yep, you're damned." I think the advice others gave to confess and talk to a priest is good, but it will only take you so far if you close yourself off to any counsel that contradicts what I can only describe as your spiritual masochism.

Perhaps you are right but I seem to be unable to forgive my self. When I pray I pray to empty air it feels like. I take that go mean God ignores me. I mean... I know Luther might have been a heretic but  did have some points. I feel too totally depraved. And I fear Augustine's notion of predestination has some truth in it.why did Jesus so often speak about"the elect"? It seems God doesn't want to have anything to do with me... I am a Child of the devil according to scripture. I hate my  life. I feel damned and wonder if God DOES damn some people  before their death?

Why is hell eternal btw? Doesn't that make either crearion a failure or God's wrath stronger than his love? Does it not mean that God has failed to destroy evil OR has it not showed that God WANTS People to burn in hell?

Offline beebert

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #114 on: January 11, 2017, 12:05:36 PM »
Beebert, if I may play armchair internet psychologist, it honestly sounds like you have deep-seated anxieties/neuroses/whatever that are manifesting as religious terror and interfering with your ability to reason or read properly. It seems like you almost want us to tell you, "Yep, you're damned." I think the advice others gave to confess and talk to a priest is good, but it will only take you so far if you close yourself off to any counsel that contradicts what I can only describe as your spiritual masochism.

Perhaps you are right but I seem to be unable to forgive my self. When I pray I pray to empty air it feels like. I take that go mean God ignores me. I mean... I know Luther might have been a heretic but  did have some points. I feel too totally depraved. And I fear Augustine's notion of predestination has some truth in it.why did Jesus so often speak about"the elect"? It seems God doesn't want to have anything to do with me... I am a Child of the devil according to scripture. I hate my  life. I feel damned and wonder if God DOES damn some people  before their death?

Why is hell eternal btw? Doesn't that make either crearion a failure or God's wrath stronger than his love? Does it not mean that God has failed to destroy evil OR does it mean that God WANTS People to burn in hell?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 12:06:05 PM by beebert »

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #115 on: January 11, 2017, 12:21:56 PM »
Beebert, if I may play armchair internet psychologist, it honestly sounds like you have deep-seated anxieties/neuroses/whatever that are manifesting as religious terror and interfering with your ability to reason or read properly. It seems like you almost want us to tell you, "Yep, you're damned." I think the advice others gave to confess and talk to a priest is good, but it will only take you so far if you close yourself off to any counsel that contradicts what I can only describe as your spiritual masochism.

Perhaps you are right but I seem to be unable to forgive my self.

This is another major problem.

Quote
When I pray I pray to empty air it feels like.

Even saints went/go through periods like that.

Quote
I take that go mean God ignores me.


Nope.

Quote
I mean... I know Luther might have been a heretic but  did have some points. I feel too totally depraved. And I fear Augustine's notion of predestination has some truth in it.why did Jesus so often speak about"the elect"? It seems God doesn't want to have anything to do with me... I am a Child of the devil according to scripture. I hate my  life. I feel damned and wonder if God DOES damn some people  before their death?

Why is hell eternal btw? Doesn't that make either crearion a failure or God's wrath stronger than his love? Does it not mean that God has failed to destroy evil OR has it not showed that God WANTS People to burn in hell?

You're in no condition to wrestle with this, not even as an academic exercise.
Just grab them by prayer.


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Offline beebert

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #116 on: January 11, 2017, 12:29:05 PM »
But I am intetested in knowing the truth. And with that, the true condition of my soul. If I am damned, then why continue living? Not that I would kill my self but I serously wonder why ny life is worth living if God has decided to torture me for all eternity.

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #117 on: January 11, 2017, 12:35:07 PM »
"Origen is better than Calvin, there is more moral truth in Origen than in St. Augustine."

Words by Nikolai Berdyaev, an orthodox religious philosopher. I think my hope lies in believing this.

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #118 on: January 11, 2017, 03:26:53 PM »
Also. Does God value this life where we cannot see him but where our Only knowledge of him is through a book basically more than the next life to come? why would he torment People för eternity for some wrong actions over the Course of a Few years? But it seems like Most Christians including God himself values the afterlife more since this life is more or less Only a testing ground to prepare for next life while the next is eternal. So would not thé Fair thing to do by God for to be to let all murdered people go directly to heaven and all unrepentant murderers get punished for a few years befor they join too? Because if the next life is more valuable, why would one find pleasure in revenge against People doing wrong in this short life? Why would a murdered person who now rejoices in heaven which was the whole purpose of his earthly lite only rejoice fully if his murderer is punished eternally, when the murdered already has gotten what he wanted: namely heaven. would not thé Fair thing rather be that the murderer is punished before going to heaven while the murdered escaped punisment? That seems Only fair.

Also, is it not selfish to give birth to a Child as a Christian, knowing that there is about 80-90 percent risk that the Child Will they and be tortured in hell forever?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 03:43:01 PM by beebert »

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #119 on: January 12, 2017, 05:27:53 AM »
His crucifixion included all the sins you will commit. Therefore you have not crucified Christ twice. He will not die for those who die in unbelief because that would mean dying for two lives and He will not tolerate that because of its permanent consequences. As Daniel says by His death He made an end of sin . I have to be Blunt with you the kingdom of God is not for people who don't want  to give their all to God or who are afraid they can not please their master like the person with 1 talent who buried it. See Luke 9:61-62
You have to run while you have the chance. Do not be like Lots wife. She may have had 1 chance because she was under the old covenant though I think one sin was enough for punishment for some because they never intended to do good. Some people in the Old Testament who were punished were only punished as an example they did not go to hell they were punished to make Israel give birth to Messiah through a pure virgin while for others their time was up from being in sin for long maybe Lot wife was in sin for long. But they were not promised patience under the old but Lot wife may have for Lot sake or for some other reason

Do not say to yourself you will have more than 1 chance but also you might. It is a sin to tempt the Lord and also to despair.The man who said my master is delaying his coming and commited big sins the Lord came and he was not ready or when he was not ready

but now He says I will remember their sins no more for everyone not just few.Let Him decide for you when your time is up
You can't be sure you will make it but there is still a chance strive. You have to love yourself enough to hope in God mercy

Christ has saved many who have repeated big sins many times. You should never despair. Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Despite all I said above it might even be less difficult and I can not put a limit to God mercy to those who are in Christ Jesus who come back to Him
Therefore the church says the mercy of God is infinite so the one who despairs is the author of his own death and David says the mercy of God is from everlasting to everlasting to those who fear Him and those who remember His commandments to do them. I worry I push people away I shouldn't from the above if I make it harder to be saved than it is. I don't want to be regarded as an infallible teacher I give just thoughts to consider. You have to listen to other teachers especially priests

Luke 9:61-62
61 And another also said, “Lord, I will follow You, but let me first go and bid them farewell who are at my house.”
62 But Jesus said to him, “No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 05:31:30 AM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #120 on: January 12, 2017, 06:24:54 AM »
His crucifixion included all the sins you will commit. Therefore you have not crucified Christ twice. He will not die for those who die in unbelief because that would mean dying for two lives and He will not tolerate that because of its permanent consequences. As Daniel says by His death He made an end of sin . I have to be Blunt with you the kingdom of God is not for people who don't want  to give their all to God or who are afraid they can not please their master like the person with 1 talent who buried it. See Luke 9:61-62
You have to run while you have the chance. Do not be like Lots wife. She may have had 1 chance because she was under the old covenant though I think one sin was enough for punishment for some because they never intended to do good. Some people in the Old Testament who were punished were only punished as an example they did not go to hell they were punished to make Israel give birth to Messiah through a pure virgin while for others their time was up from being in sin for long maybe Lot wife was in sin for long. But they were not promised patience under the old but Lot wife may have for Lot sake or for some other reason

Do not say to yourself you will have more than 1 chance but also you might. It is a sin to tempt the Lord and also to despair.The man who said my master is delaying his coming and commited big sins the Lord came and he was not ready or when he was not ready

but now He says I will remember their sins no more for everyone not just few.Let Him decide for you when your time is up
You can't be sure you will make it but there is still a chance strive. You have to love yourself enough to hope in God mercy

Christ has saved many who have repeated big sins many times. You should never despair. Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Despite all I said above it might even be less difficult and I can not put a limit to God mercy to those who are in Christ Jesus who come back to Him
Therefore the church says the mercy of God is infinite so the one who despairs is the author of his own death and David says the mercy of God is from everlasting to everlasting to those who fear Him and those who remember His commandments to do them. I worry I push people away I shouldn't from the above if I make it harder to be saved than it is. I don't want to be regarded as an infallible teacher I give just thoughts to consider. You have to listen to other teachers especially priests

Luke 9:61-62
61 And another also said, “Lord, I will follow You, but let me first go and bid them farewell who are at my house.”
62 But Jesus said to him, “No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”

Thanks for your comment. Well... your thoughts are very much like the thoughts I have had. I feel exactly like Lot, Esau etc. I know I have despaired and I don't want to but it is not as easy as one might think. Regarding the quote from Luke, it had condemned me a lot before. Since I was invited to his kingdom 2 years ago but turned Another direction. To People who has done like I did Christ says  “No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."

It seems to me that God says his mercy is infinite for those who are saved
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 06:26:29 AM by beebert »

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #121 on: January 12, 2017, 08:11:54 AM »
Jesus did not mean there is no more chance when saying no one putting his hand to the plow and looking back is fit for heaven just that if he chooses to follow Him later He should follow Him wholeheartedly. Love the Lord with all your heart and strength. It is never too late to come back to God and make the decision not to look back
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 08:12:23 AM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #122 on: January 12, 2017, 08:22:57 AM »
Jesus did not mean there is no more chance when saying no one putting his hand to the plow and looking back is fit for heaven just that if he chooses to follow Him later He should follow Him wholeheartedly. Love the Lord with all your heart and strength. It is never too late to come back to God and make the decision not to look back

Are you 100 percent sure? But how shall I view such passages as hebrew 6:4-6 and 10:26-29 then? I hope with all my heart that you are right.

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #123 on: January 12, 2017, 08:47:36 AM »
Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[a] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Hebrews 10:26-29
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

Chrysostom: “They crucify,” he says, “the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.” What he means is this. Baptism is a cross, and “our old self was crucified with him,” for we were “united with him in a death like his” and again, “we were buried therefore with him by baptism into death.” Therefore, it is not possible that Christ should be crucified a second time, for that is to “hold him up to contempt.” For if “death no longer has dominion over him,” if he rose again, by his resurrection becoming superior to death, if by death he wrestled with and overcame death, and then is crucified again, all those things become a fable and a mockery. He then that baptizes a second time crucifies him again.…
For as Christ died on the cross, so do we in baptism, not as to the flesh but as to sin. Behold two deaths. He died as to the flesh. In our case, the old self was buried and the new self arose, made conformable to the likeness of his death. If, therefore, it is necessary to be baptized again, it is necessary that this same Christ should die again. For baptism is nothing else than the putting to death of the baptized and his rising again. And he well said, “crucify on their own account,” for he that does this, having forgotten the former grace and ordering his own life carelessly, acts in all respects as if there were another baptism. It behooves us therefore to take heed and to make ourselves safe. On the Epistle to the Hebrews 9.6.

Oecumenius: He did not speak of people who have sinned, but he addressed the reckless and desired to admonish those who wish to remain in sin until the end. Hence it is especially clear that he does not destroy the possibility of repentance. Fragments on the Epistle to the Hebrews 10.26.

Theodore of Mopsuestia: Those who have changed from the better to the worse must in the end be handed over to punishment, when they rise from the dead, since they did not allow any repentance in this life. For not merely in the present life does such an individual abolish repentance, but by his inability to assent to repentance he remains content with his fall and takes no notice of his stumbling, accomplishing every sort of sin with much pleasure by a certain lack of reason. Fragments on the Epistle to the Hebrews 10.26–27.

You can read the rest in ancient Christian commentary on scripture for book of Hebrews
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 09:18:01 AM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #124 on: January 12, 2017, 09:44:51 AM »
Some also think Jesus was making high demands on those who want to reach perfection not that they can not be saved without total renunciation. I mean with reference to Jesus saying no one putting his hand to the plow and looking back is fit for the kingdom of God. I think He means both. Jesus said we have to leave everything to be His disciple but He means the love of anything. Not everyone will choose the same way of life and that is okay but we have to give account then on our life

Also it is possible true repentance can be gained in an instant not needing weeks or days but one should not think he will be alive to offer it but there is hope for all alive. Once again you have to seek others also and I will add most importantly God

St Ambrose of Optina
“Years are not needed for true repentance, and not days, but only an instant.”



« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 09:56:24 AM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #125 on: January 12, 2017, 09:53:44 AM »
Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[a] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Hebrews 10:26-29
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

Chrysostom: “They crucify,” he says, “the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.” What he means is this. Baptism is a cross, and “our old self was crucified with him,” for we were “united with him in a death like his” and again, “we were buried therefore with him by baptism into death.” Therefore, it is not possible that Christ should be crucified a second time, for that is to “hold him up to contempt.” For if “death no longer has dominion over him,” if he rose again, by his resurrection becoming superior to death, if by death he wrestled with and overcame death, and then is crucified again, all those things become a fable and a mockery. He then that baptizes a second time crucifies him again.…
For as Christ died on the cross, so do we in baptism, not as to the flesh but as to sin. Behold two deaths. He died as to the flesh. In our case, the old self was buried and the new self arose, made conformable to the likeness of his death. If, therefore, it is necessary to be baptized again, it is necessary that this same Christ should die again. For baptism is nothing else than the putting to death of the baptized and his rising again. And he well said, “crucify on their own account,” for he that does this, having forgotten the former grace and ordering his own life carelessly, acts in all respects as if there were another baptism. It behooves us therefore to take heed and to make ourselves safe. On the Epistle to the Hebrews 9.6.

Oecumenius: He did not speak of people who have sinned, but he addressed the reckless and desired to admonish those who wish to remain in sin until the end. Hence it is especially clear that he does not destroy the possibility of repentance. Fragments on the Epistle to the Hebrews 10.26.

Theodore of Mopsuestia: Those who have changed from the better to the worse must in the end be handed over to punishment, when they rise from the dead, since they did not allow any repentance in this life. For not merely in the present life does such an individual abolish repentance, but by his inability to assent to repentance he remains content with his fall and takes no notice of his stumbling, accomplishing every sort of sin with much pleasure by a certain lack of reason. Fragments on the Epistle to the Hebrews 10.26–27.

You can read the rest in ancient Christian commentary on scripture for book of Hebrews

Those to passages make me despair. That is just how it is. I have done hebrew 6 and 10... So then I must wait now, at age 22 for an eternal punishment. I am already being punished here and now and Will probably continue to be for the rest of my life. And then it Will continue for ever? I continued sinning for 1 year after knowledge of truth and Lost all grace.I didn't know God found sin so horrible that he will torture me eternally from this moment on. if sins comitted during 1 year time despite knowledge of truth deserves punishment for the rest of life and and then eternally in the next then I wonder WHY God doesn't speak and warn me of that. that didn't know the seriousness until I had sinned so if he so loves human beings why does he not 1. Speak with a voice one can hear to warn us? If he did then surely I would have avoided to sin.
2. Prevent People from coming in to existence or forgive people who asks for forgiveness despite having comitted the sin described in Hebrew 6 and 10?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 09:59:50 AM by beebert »

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #126 on: January 12, 2017, 10:01:36 AM »
The commentaries I showed you clearly show there is only no hope for the person who does not desire to repent so will not. Also David wept for his sin day and night not to earn forgiveness but to be restored and become a great Saint by completely leaving his sins and show God how he loves Him. Therefore he did not lose his reward as Esau did. But Esau was still saved
St. Paul said the sorrow of world which is having no hope so not moving toward Christ produces death
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 10:06:55 AM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #127 on: January 12, 2017, 10:03:28 AM »
I fear I can not repent. Because what is repentance? I have asked for forgiveness as sincerely as possible for 6 months and nothing has changed. If I had confessed 2 years ago then repentance would have been made in an instant. But since I continued sinning instead after knowledge of truth it seems God has rejected me because I am completely left alone with my horrible disgusting self

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #128 on: January 12, 2017, 10:19:43 AM »
Feelings are not trusted but the only way to know you have repented is if you renew your mind with the bible and are making progress by choosing to obey the bible and any amount of progress is proof God never abandons us. He said I will not leave you orphans I will give you the Holy Spirit
You said you had tears surely that would have killed sin to a little degree and might in itself be a progress. That is just to prove that He has not abandoned you but you have to completely leave the sin only with minor falls or repent how ever much it is expected of us all

« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 10:28:02 AM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #129 on: January 12, 2017, 10:23:57 AM »
Feelings are not trusted but the only way to know you have repented is if you renew your mind with the bible and are making progress by choosing to obey the bible and any amount of progress is proof God never abandons us. He said I will not leave you orphans I will give you the Holy Spirit
You said you had tears surely that would have killed sin to a little degree and might in itself be a progress.

There has been no progress. As soon as I pray I feel a heavy arm of wrath over me and Picture a God who has an everlasting wrath against me. I seem unable to a what the bible says because it says everywhere that I am damned. My tears have been tears of despair. Not godly tears of love. Why does God demand all this from us? I can only feel his wrath. No love to me whatsoever. But since he is Always right I Guess I deserve it
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 10:26:09 AM by beebert »

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #130 on: January 12, 2017, 10:33:14 AM »
I will pray for you. I have to prepare to sleep again

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #131 on: January 12, 2017, 10:39:12 AM »
I will pray for you. I have to prepare to sleep again
yes please pray and despite me sounding hopeless: Thank you a lot for your help

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #132 on: January 12, 2017, 10:47:59 AM »
Just one question to all: Can it Happen that God rejects a person who regret their sins and wants to be with him but that God rejects him Only because of his sins? Did he not do that with Saul and Esau?

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #133 on: January 12, 2017, 12:01:13 PM »
But I am intetested in knowing the truth. And with that, the true condition of my soul. If I am damned, then why continue living? Not that I would kill my self but I serously wonder why ny life is worth living if God has decided to torture me for all eternity.

Look, if you're trying to come back to God, knowing the truth is good, but not all truth is immediately helpful.  For instance, if you insisted on learning everything you could about ecclesiology, it would not really help you where you are right now, even if it's a good and helpful thing.  What you need to concern yourself with is not various ideas about hell and damnation.  You already have plenty of erroneous ideas confusing you, and when confronted with true ideas, you interrogate them in light of your erroneous ideas and create more confusion for yourself. 

You would be better off going to a priest, confessing your sins, being honest about your problems, and letting him help you to heal.  It might be helpful to seek some sort of professional counseling or therapy as well.  But exegeting Hebrews or reading John Calvin is not going to help you.  You don't even have the basics down, so overreaching like this will be disastrous. 
Just grab them by prayer.


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The Church's bridegroom was never the Byzantine Empire.

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Re: What all human beings want is love
« Reply #134 on: January 12, 2017, 12:18:03 PM »
But I am intetested in knowing the truth. And with that, the true condition of my soul. If I am damned, then why continue living? Not that I would kill my self but I serously wonder why ny life is worth living if God has decided to torture me for all eternity.

Look, if you're trying to come back to God, knowing the truth is good, but not all truth is immediately helpful.  For instance, if you insisted on learning everything you could about ecclesiology, it would not really help you where you are right now, even if it's a good and helpful thing.  What you need to concern yourself with is not various ideas about hell and damnation.  You already have plenty of erroneous ideas confusing you, and when confronted with true ideas, you interrogate them in light of your erroneous ideas and create more confusion for yourself. 

You would be better off going to a priest, confessing your sins, being honest about your problems, and letting him help you to heal.  It might be helpful to seek some sort of professional counseling or therapy as well.  But exegeting Hebrews or reading John Calvin is not going to help you.  You don't even have the basics down, so overreaching like this will be disastrous.

Okay I shall follow your advice about confession... Which erroneous ideas do I have?Tell me and I would be thankful so that I can do everything to avoid those ideas