Author Topic: Trailers from Christian movies  (Read 7105 times)

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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #45 on: November 06, 2017, 06:48:32 PM »
In Everything Remains for People, the scientist Dronov says that there is no afterlife, and Fr. Seraphim disagrees and says that there are important benefits to belief in an afterlife for society. Fr. Seraphim thinks that Dronov does good things, wanting to help people, but not everyone is like that. Fr. Seraphim says that  with belief in an afterlife, a good person will naturally be inclined to sacrifice, hoping for reward, whereas a bad person will be inclined to restraint in evil. If a bad person sees no afterlife, he could see no restraint to any evil. Dronov replies that religious belief motivated evil actions like the Crusades and Inquisition. Further, Dronov finds meaning in the limitation of his time on earth - knowing that life is limited, he wants to do good and leave behind a good legacy within that limited time that he has.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 06:49:11 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2017, 12:52:51 PM »
Here is a list in Russian of biblical movies:
http://orthodoxy.cafe/index.php?topic=644433.0
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #47 on: November 21, 2017, 11:18:55 PM »
See also the UK BBC Bible Mysteries series:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0318ps7/episodes/guide
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #48 on: November 22, 2017, 10:35:21 PM »
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #49 on: November 23, 2017, 12:32:15 AM »
Francis Schaeffer has a nice directing and filmographic style in his documentary "The Early Church", showing ancient Christian and Roman ruins. But the teachings in the documentary have a major dose of how Schaeffar would like to imagine early Christianity as a Reformed Protestant. For example, Schaeffer shows a man in Roman garb reading a scroll, while he narrates in an academic tone:

"In the early church, the authority rested on the Bible alone, but in the Middle Ages there had come a change, with authority divided between the Bible and the Church."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=287midjlhl8


Shouldn't someone who has studied the early Church realize that the Bible hadn't even been completed until the end of the 1st century or so? Shouldn't he realize that in 44-200 AD, the Church's bishops and the Traditions would also have authority over the Church?
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 12:35:38 AM by rakovsky »
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #50 on: November 23, 2017, 01:07:41 AM »
Francis Schaeffer has a nice directing and filmographic style in his documentary "The Early Church", showing ancient Christian and Roman ruins. But the teachings in the documentary have a major dose of how Schaeffar would like to imagine early Christianity as a Reformed Protestant. For example, Schaeffer shows a man in Roman garb reading a scroll, while he narrates in an academic tone:

"In the early church, the authority rested on the Bible alone, but in the Middle Ages there had come a change, with authority divided between the Bible and the Church."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=287midjlhl8


Shouldn't someone who has studied the early Church realize that the Bible hadn't even been completed until the end of the 1st century or so? Shouldn't he realize that in 44-200 AD, the Church's bishops and the Traditions would also have authority over the Church?

As far as these kinds of discussions go, one of my favorite passages is from Eusebius, who records something written by St. Melito of Sardis (d. 180):

"Melito, to his brother Onesimus, greeting! Since you have often, in your zeal for the Word, expressed a wish to have extracts made from the Law and the Prophets concerning the Saviour, and concerning our entire Faith, and have also desired to have an accurate statement of the ancient books, as regards their number and their order, I have endeavored to perform the task, knowing your zeal for the faith, and your desire to gain information in regard to the Word, and knowing that you, in your yearning after God, esteem these things above all else, struggling to attain eternal salvation. Accordingly when I went to the East and reached the place where these things were preached and done, I learned accurately the books of the Old Testament, and I send them to you as written below" (Ecclesiastical History, 4.26.13-14)

It reminds me of the humility of St. Paul as recorded in Galatians: even though they'd been going about things for years in a certain way, nonetheless they were still open to correction if they found out they were mistaken:

"Then after fourteen years, I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also. I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain." (Gal. 2:1-2)
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #51 on: November 23, 2017, 01:14:06 AM »
Francis Schaeffer has a nice directing and filmographic style in his documentary "The Early Church", showing ancient Christian and Roman ruins. But the teachings in the documentary have a major dose of how Schaeffar would like to imagine early Christianity as a Reformed Protestant. For example, Schaeffer shows a man in Roman garb reading a scroll, while he narrates in an academic tone:

"In the early church, the authority rested on the Bible alone, but in the Middle Ages there had come a change, with authority divided between the Bible and the Church."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=287midjlhl8


Shouldn't someone who has studied the early Church realize that the Bible hadn't even been completed until the end of the 1st century or so? Shouldn't he realize that in 44-200 AD, the Church's bishops and the Traditions would also have authority over the Church?

As far as these kinds of discussions go, one of my favorite passages is from Eusebius, who records something written by St. Melito of Sardis (d. 180):

"Melito, to his brother Onesimus, greeting! Since you have often, in your zeal for the Word, expressed a wish to have extracts made from the Law and the Prophets concerning the Saviour, and concerning our entire Faith, and have also desired to have an accurate statement of the ancient books, as regards their number and their order, I have endeavored to perform the task, knowing your zeal for the faith, and your desire to gain information in regard to the Word, and knowing that you, in your yearning after God, esteem these things above all else, struggling to attain eternal salvation. Accordingly when I went to the East and reached the place where these things were preached and done, I learned accurately the books of the Old Testament, and I send them to you as written below" (Ecclesiastical History, 4.26.13-14)

It reminds me of the humility of St. Paul as recorded in Galatians: even though they'd been going about things for years in a certain way, nonetheless they were still open to correction if they found out they were mistaken:

"Then after fourteen years, I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also. I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain." (Gal. 2:1-2)

Add to that St. Basil's discussion of authoritative unwritten traditions, yeah.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 01:14:19 AM by Volnutt »
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #52 on: November 23, 2017, 02:15:15 PM »
The Council of Jerusalem on circumcision's status, and the later decision on the Quartodecimian controversy were not resolved in the early Church by debating scripture alone, but were resolved by a churchly institutional body of leaders.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #53 on: November 24, 2017, 08:18:06 PM »
The Jesus Mysteries (National Geographic) (No trailer, but the video intro is like one)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmwqWugMmso
It's part of the National Geographic Lost Mysteries of the Bible series:
https://shop.nationalgeographic.com/product/dvds/religion/lost-mysteries-of-the-bible-6-dvd-set

The Naked Archeologist is a History Channel series that covers a lot of Biblical topics:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Naked_Archaeologist
http://tv.twcc.com/tv/naked-archaeologist
« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 08:24:51 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #54 on: November 24, 2017, 08:26:19 PM »
Definitely a joke to be made here out of the biblical idiom "covering [someone's] nakedness"  :P
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #55 on: November 25, 2017, 01:06:17 PM »
Salome (1953, about Salome who shows up in the story of John the Baptist)
http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/video/208448/Salome-Original-Trailer-.html

Salome (2013, same topic, but in a modern stageplay setting with modern clothes)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo8FSy393dQ

Quote from: rakovsky
Fabiola (1949/51, Italian, about pagan Rome & its Christians)
http://www.ivid.it/trailer/12857/FABIOLA/Clip%20Italiana
It's about the persecution of Christians and Constantine's arrival to Rome. There are English language versions online. What is the forum's policy on posting links to full movies?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2017, 01:16:13 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #56 on: November 25, 2017, 05:16:26 PM »
In The Apostles: 12 Ordinary Men, the film presents an Apologetic, using the theme of the apostles. It also presents a standard Reformed Protestant view of the Eucharist as not "literal". The narrator says that Jesus' Eucharistic message was more "shocking" than the teaching that the Messiah would be put to death and resurrect. He then reads from John where it says you must eat the flesh of the Son of Man to get life (John 6). The minister John Macarthur says:
Quote
Jesus was trying to tell the people that anyone who came to him would have to do so through acceptance of his death and resurrection. That is the basis of salvation. But many of the Jews took his statement literally and for them this was too much to take. They were forbidden by the Jewish religion to drink blood and they were offended by the very suggestion. This statement caused most people to walk away from Jesus and it even gave some of them ammunition that they would bring against him when he was at trial. They missed the point entirely.
The movie then at 10:30 shows a painting of Jesus on the cross with his side pierced and what looks like people putting their faces next to and into his bleeding wounds in his side and right hand.


The movie just seems to be asserting that the literal interpretation is wrong, without giving a real explanation. The sense seems to be that because consuming human flesh and blood would violate Jewish tradition, was very offensive, etc., a literal view of salvation by eating Jesus' flesh and blood must be wrong. And as a result, the only explanation must be that it's a symbolic way of talking about salvation by believing.

The film interviews Prof. Gary Habermas, who says that many people, like Jihadists, are willing to die for a belief or ideology that they have. He says that the apostles were willing to risk death for their factual claims about Jesus' appearances, so therefore they must have sincerely believed their claims of seeing Jesus. It's an interesting Apologetic issue. I think that it's a real, good argument. The apostles certainly claimed to have seen Jesus after the resurrection, singly or in groups, as Paul tells the Corinthians. They risked imprisonment and death, with scripture recording Stephen's death for his faith. And certainly, a person is far more likely to risk death for the sake of a claim about an experience they believe they had than for one that they believe that they didn't.

Nor can I think of any historic cases that exactly match all the same elements of the argument. John Smith and the other Mormons who claimed to have seen his angel in the woods or his golden plates may have reached about a dozen in total, but the risk of death was not very clear. John Smith was killed by a mob in Illinois. But I think that he probably didn't surrender himself to the authorities thinking he faced a serious risk of being killed. So the case of John Smith and his supporters claiming that they saw the plates and angel in the woods doesn't seem quite analogous to dozens of apostles preaching that they saw Jesus while risking death at the hands of the rabbis and the Romans. Likewise, charismatics may make up "visions", they are quite fervent, and have gone to preach in dangerous 3rd world countries. But how many instances do we know wherein modern Charismatics have risked death for their claims of visions?
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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #57 on: November 25, 2017, 05:42:13 PM »
In The Apostles: 12 Ordinary Men, the film presents an Apologetic, using the theme of the apostles. It also presents a standard Reformed Protestant view of the Eucharist as not "literal". The narrator says that Jesus' Eucharistic message was more "shocking" than the teaching that the Messiah would be put to death and resurrect. He then reads from John where it says you must eat the flesh of the Son of Man to get life (John 6). The minister John Macarthur says:
Quote
Jesus was trying to tell the people that anyone who came to him would have to do so through acceptance of his death and resurrection. That is the basis of salvation. But many of the Jews took his statement literally and for them this was too much to take. They were forbidden by the Jewish religion to drink blood and they were offended by the very suggestion. This statement caused most people to walk away from Jesus and it even gave some of them ammunition that they would bring against him when he was at trial. They missed the point entirely.

Were Christ's words shocking just for the sake of it? Why then use such language?

Seems to me what scandalized the Jews, scandalizes Protestants just as well. Both would rather flee His teachings than accept them.

Nor can I think of any historic cases that exactly match all the same elements of the argument. John Smith and the other Mormons who claimed to have seen his angel in the woods or his golden plates may have reached about a dozen in total, but the risk of death was not very clear. John Smith was killed by a mob in Illinois. But I think that he probably didn't surrender himself to the authorities thinking he faced a serious risk of being killed. So the case of John Smith and his supporters claiming that they saw the plates and angel in the woods doesn't seem quite analogous to dozens of apostles preaching that they saw Jesus while risking death at the hands of the rabbis and the Romans.

Joseph Smith was his name, and the long con was his game.
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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #58 on: November 25, 2017, 05:47:57 PM »
Francis Schaeffer has a nice directing and filmographic style in his documentary "The Early Church", showing ancient Christian and Roman ruins. But the teachings in the documentary have a major dose of how Schaeffar would like to imagine early Christianity as a Reformed Protestant. For example, Schaeffer shows a man in Roman garb reading a scroll, while he narrates in an academic tone:

"In the early church, the authority rested on the Bible alone, but in the Middle Ages there had come a change, with authority divided between the Bible and the Church."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=287midjlhl8


Shouldn't someone who has studied the early Church realize that the Bible hadn't even been completed until the end of the 1st century or so? Shouldn't he realize that in 44-200 AD, the Church's bishops and the Traditions would also have authority over the Church?

As far as these kinds of discussions go, one of my favorite passages is from Eusebius, who records something written by St. Melito of Sardis (d. 180):

"Melito, to his brother Onesimus, greeting! Since you have often, in your zeal for the Word, expressed a wish to have extracts made from the Law and the Prophets concerning the Saviour, and concerning our entire Faith, and have also desired to have an accurate statement of the ancient books, as regards their number and their order, I have endeavored to perform the task, knowing your zeal for the faith, and your desire to gain information in regard to the Word, and knowing that you, in your yearning after God, esteem these things above all else, struggling to attain eternal salvation. Accordingly when I went to the East and reached the place where these things were preached and done, I learned accurately the books of the Old Testament, and I send them to you as written below" (Ecclesiastical History, 4.26.13-14)

It reminds me of the humility of St. Paul as recorded in Galatians: even though they'd been going about things for years in a certain way, nonetheless they were still open to correction if they found out they were mistaken:

"Then after fourteen years, I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also. I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain." (Gal. 2:1-2)

Love all of this.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #59 on: November 25, 2017, 06:44:36 PM »
In The Apostles: 12 Ordinary Men, the film presents an Apologetic, using the theme of the apostles. It also presents a standard Reformed Protestant view of the Eucharist as not "literal". The narrator says that Jesus' Eucharistic message was more "shocking" than the teaching that the Messiah would be put to death and resurrect. He then reads from John where it says you must eat the flesh of the Son of Man to get life (John 6). The minister John Macarthur says:
Quote
Jesus was trying to tell the people that anyone who came to him would have to do so through acceptance of his death and resurrection. That is the basis of salvation. But many of the Jews took his statement literally and for them this was too much to take. They were forbidden by the Jewish religion to drink blood and they were offended by the very suggestion. This statement caused most people to walk away from Jesus and it even gave some of them ammunition that they would bring against him when he was at trial. They missed the point entirely.

Were Christ's words shocking just for the sake of it? Why then use such language?

Seems to me what scandalized the Jews, scandalizes Protestants just as well. Both would rather flee His teachings than accept them.
I think the movie was suggesting to the audience that the Jews and many initial followers had difficulty with Jesus' teaching that he would get killed and resurrect. They didn't understand what this meant (a literal death and literal resurrection, not just "spiritually" dying alone) and were expecting a victorious rebel king leader as a Messiah.

It's saying that another difficulty was the teaching about eating Jesus's body. The apologetic is that the audience didn't understand this and made a mistake in taking this literally. The narrators seem to use the logic is that since this is offensive as a teaching, this literal reading could not have been what Jesus meant. The non-Reformed teaching though is that there is in fact a literal aspect to the Eucharist, offensive to Jewish attitudes, just like there is to the death and resurrection.

You asked: "Were Christ's words shocking just for the sake of it? Why then use such language?"

Not only that, but if Jesus rejected any literal eating of his body, then why would he make the concept of eating flesh a test of faith that winnowed out those who rejected a literal eating of Jesus' body?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2017, 06:50:53 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #60 on: November 26, 2017, 08:46:27 AM »
So the Real Presence is more offensive than the Cross itself? MacArthur and Habermas make it sound as if the crowd was right to walk away from a presumed literal John 6:53-54 but not to walk away from the scandal of the Cross, which seems a little backwards to me.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2017, 08:47:07 AM by Volnutt »
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #61 on: November 26, 2017, 02:30:48 PM »
So the Real Presence is more offensive than the Cross itself? MacArthur and Habermas make it sound as if the crowd was right to walk away from a presumed literal John 6:53-54 but not to walk away from the scandal of the Cross, which seems a little backwards to me.
I guess MacArthur would answer that the crowd was wrong to walk away and that they instead should have interpreted Jesus's words in a nonliteral, inoffensive way.

Like you said, MacArthur accepts the scandal of the cross, but not the challenge of really discerning Jesus's body itself in the meal.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2017, 02:33:51 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #62 on: November 26, 2017, 02:54:30 PM »
So the Real Presence is more offensive than the Cross itself? MacArthur and Habermas make it sound as if the crowd was right to walk away from a presumed literal John 6:53-54 but not to walk away from the scandal of the Cross, which seems a little backwards to me.
I guess MacArthur would answer that the crowd was wrong to walk away and that they instead should have interpreted Jesus's words in a nonliteral, inoffensive way.

I'm sure he would. But the Messiah being crucified for their sins would probably have been almost as offensive to them as eating flesh and blood would be, so MacArthur is a bit naive to think that therefore we should take the Eucharist as nonliteral. It's almost a non-sequitur, really.
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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #63 on: November 26, 2017, 04:22:56 PM »
So the Real Presence is more offensive than the Cross itself? MacArthur and Habermas make it sound as if the crowd was right to walk away from a presumed literal John 6:53-54 but not to walk away from the scandal of the Cross, which seems a little backwards to me.
I guess MacArthur would answer that the crowd was wrong to walk away and that they instead should have interpreted Jesus's words in a nonliteral, inoffensive way.

I'm sure he would. But the Messiah being crucified for their sins would probably have been almost as offensive to them as eating flesh and blood would be, so MacArthur is a bit naive to think that therefore we should take the Eucharist as nonliteral. It's almost a non-sequitur, really.

Your analysis is so right. So much of the later Reformation makes little sense of itself. It's a collection of reactions and assumptions. I suppose this is true of most movements, over time.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #64 on: November 26, 2017, 11:09:04 PM »
In Deadly Journeys of the Apostles: From the Holy Land to Africa, a Catholic priest says that in the apocryphal writings, Philip doesn't want to be taken down from his cross by the onlookers whom he converts while suffering, because he sees his crucifixion as an eternal reward, not as anguish (despite being painful) or an embarrassment, but as a glorification, as a beautiful conclusion to his calling. It's an interesting observation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttZ4hc3wDkk
« Last Edit: November 26, 2017, 11:09:47 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #65 on: November 27, 2017, 06:27:31 AM »
In Deadly Journeys of the Apostles: From the Holy Land to Africa, a Catholic priest says that in the apocryphal writings, Philip doesn't want to be taken down from his cross by the onlookers whom he converts while suffering, because he sees his crucifixion as an eternal reward, not as anguish (despite being painful) or an embarrassment, but as a glorification, as a beautiful conclusion to his calling. It's an interesting observation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttZ4hc3wDkk

Kind of reminds me of St. Ignatius.
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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #67 on: November 27, 2017, 11:40:56 PM »
The video of The Seventh Seal that I found has a medieval procession with the song Dies Irae, Day of Wrath, but unfortunately doesn't translate the Latin into English. Here is a clip with the procession, but it too lacks the lyrics translated:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnD3ZgfEg8s





A full text of the full medieval song in English is here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dies_irae

But Bergman's version is abridged, and is here in Latin below:
Quote
Solvet saeclum in favilla
Teste David cum Sibylla
Quantus tremor est futurus
Quando judex est venturus
Cuncta stricte discussurus
Tuba, mirum spargens sonum
Per sepulcra regionum
Coget omnes ante thronum
Mors stupebit et natura
Cum resurget criatura
Judicanti responsura
Lacrymosa dies illa
Qua resurget ex favilla
Judicandus homo réus
Huic ergo parce Deus

Reviewers said that this scene in the movie has a strong impact. It comes right after some medieval painted actors on a stage perform a ballad about a black one on a beach, and forms a very serious contrast. One review noted that self-flagellation was not a trait particularly noted about medieval Sweden, while a movie critic said that the scene with the penitents self-flagellating was an objection by Bergman against his strict religious (Lutheran) upbringing, as was the cruel image of the bishop in Fanny and Alexander.

I think that it turns out in the next scene that the preacher leading the procession was the same preacher who had told people to join the Crusades and had later tried to rob a corpse and then rape somebody.
....

A messed up scene in the movie comes later where an actor pretends to kill himself so that a drunken husband, mad at him over an affair, stops pursuing him. The actor then climbs up a tree to escape "ghosts" and predators in the forest. But then Death saws down his tree and he dies.

The movie does a successful job portraying the impersonal force or event of death as a person.

It's an interesting philosophical tale. Death comes for the group of travelers. But while the religious philosopher distracts death with the chess game, the three "innocents" slip away. Those are the visionary actor and his wife and child. In the beginning of the movie, the actor had seen a vision of the Virgin and Child, suggesting a divine blessing on his family.

Quote
...the remaining characters in the film are representative of various attitudes towards life (and death)...:

The Religious Idealist. Antonius Block (Max von Sydow) is the knight who has returned from the Crusades.  He is not a fanatic, but a reflective religious idealist who wishes to know the unknowable God through his intellect.

The Rational Skeptic. Jons (Gunnar Bjornstrand), the knight’s squire, is an earthy skeptic who dismisses religious feelings as utter nonsense used to fool the common people.  For him, life is to be lived in the here and now.

The Innocents. The traveling performers, Jof (Nils Poppe) and Mia (Bibi Anderson), are unreflective commoners, but they are essentially innocent and good-hearted.  If there is a God, he should look after these people, even when they lie (as Jof often does).
...
Seeing the bliss of Jof and Mia, [Antonius Block] realizes, at least momentarily, that his obsession with religious truth is not so significant.  Later in the tavern, we see Jons's expressing his contrasting and cynical view of love, which states is just lust and nothing more.
http://www.filmsufi.com/2013/08/the-seventh-seal-ingmar-bergman-1957.html

Quote
The Seventh Seal not only helped establish Bergman as one of the most influential filmmakers of the 20th century but, in the words of Bergman himself, it also helped him overcome his colossal fear of death. In an interview with Charles Thomas Samuels in 1971, Bergman says, “Say anything you want against The Seventh Seal. My fear of death—this infantile fixation of mine—was, at that moment, overwhelming. I felt myself in contact with death day and night, and my fear was tremendous. When I finished the picture, my fear went away. I have the feeling simply of having painted a canvas in an enormous hurry—with enormous pretension but without any arrogance.”
http://www.jamuura.com/blog/the-seventh-seal-bergmans-existential-masterpiece-on-the-battle-between-life-death/

It's hard to see whether Bergman judges religion as philosophically helpful or harmful, and I am not sure how much this reviewer is right:
Quote
Bergman seems to be offering that one possibility for the existence of religion is that people turn to it when they are scared. The knight says we “make an idol of our fear, and call it God.” The church artist says people need a reason to explain the devastation of the plague, so the justify it by calling it a punishment from God for the evil ways of humans. Indeed, later in the movie, we have a procession of people whipping each other, subduing the flesh as it were, as penance for sinful ways. A priest among these penitents frightens the townspeople by saying that they will all die of the Black Plague. Instead of rejoicing at life, he talks of a pregnant woman being full of a lust for life as being foolish, since life is short. From this viewpoint, life is not meant to be enjoyed, and one should worry about the immortal soul that can be tortured in hell if it leaves this world in a sinful state. When the procession members march out of the town, we see them disappear, suggesting they lived their lives as if already dead.
...
The irrational fear of death leads to superstitious practices that justify the tormenting of others. Block and his squire come across soldiers who have tortured and are ready to burn at the stake a woman they say has consorted with the devil. They blame her for bringing about the plague. When Jof is in a tavern he jokes about the impending doom, and is immediately considered suspicious for his lack of fear. In contrast to those whose belief in religion is based on fear, the knight Block wants his faith built on a basis of true belief. When he looks at a statue of a crucified Jesus, the knight’s tormented soul is mirrored in the agony on the sculptured face of Christ.
...
Without actual knowledge of God, not just faith that he may exist, he is left in a state of “preposterous horror.” He can’t face death “knowing everything’s nothingness.” But, that is exactly what he is doing, because the priest turns out to be a masquerading Death (the irony then is that the church and its priests are implied as fake purveyors of truth).
http://mymeaningfulmovies.blogspot.com/2017/03/the-seventh-seal.html
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #68 on: December 02, 2017, 06:23:27 PM »
In "Bible Mysteries: Revelation", a scholar notes that some early copies of the Bible say Harmageddon instead of Armageddon, showing that the original reference was to the Mount of Megiddo, Har Megiddo.
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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #69 on: December 03, 2017, 11:14:49 AM »
In "Bible Mysteries: Revelation", a scholar notes that some early copies of the Bible say Harmageddon instead of Armageddon, showing that the original reference was to the Mount of Megiddo, Har Megiddo.

Wow, there's still people that that's news for? Is this one of those 5th grade level History Channel shows?
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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #70 on: December 14, 2017, 12:33:14 PM »
I'm watching the Greek Archdiocese's film "Enter In: Exploring the Feasts of the Church". In the section on the Exaltation of the Cross, they quote St John Chrysostom as saying that people have crosses to bear. He asks why then people are healed by God from their fatal crosses and live longer. And his answer is so that they can get more crosses to bear.

Here is the video's section on the Exaltation of the Cross:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzXSeJ4NmJI

They also talk about the feast of the entrance of the Theotokos into the Temple. The OCA website explains that in this holiday's event,
Quote
... the High Priest, through inspiration from above, led the Most Holy Virgin into the Holy of Holies, where only the High Priest entered once a year to offer a purifying sacrifice of blood. Therefore, all those present in the Temple were astonished at this most unusual occurrence.

...

DISCOURSE ON THE FEAST OF THE ENTRY OF OUR MOST PURE LADY THEOTOKOS INTO THE HOLY OF HOLIES

by Saint Gregory Palamas, Archbishop of Thessalonica
...
Now He finds a Handmaiden perfectly suited to these needs, the supplier of Her own unsullied nature, the Ever-Virgin now hymned by us, and Whose miraculous Entrance into the Temple, into the Holy of Holies, we now celebrate.
https://oca.org/saints/lives/2010/11/21/103357-the-entry-of-the-most-holy-mother-of-god-into-the-temple


During the video, two theologians say that she didn't actually enter into the Holy Holies, because that was something the high priest only did once a year. And one of the theologians says that even the high priest didn't really enter it, he only lifted a corner of the curtain of the Holy of Holies.

Here is the section of the video on the Entrance of the Theotokos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npRrdkXXjLI
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #71 on: December 16, 2017, 07:00:03 PM »
In the segment on the Dormition of the Theotokos in "Enter In: Exploring the Feasts of the Church", the program said that the Theotokos needed salvation, she died, the Dormition is not a dogma of the Church, and belief in the Dormition is not needed for salvation. They said that the Dormition is described by Melito of Sardis. Fr. John Peck, an Orthodox priest, notes that most schoalrs date this text about the Dormition to the 5th century, rather than attributing it directly to Melito of Sardis.

They said there is a hymn that talks about the "New Eve" (in Greek, Eve is "Zoe"), a title which is often considered to refer to the Theotokos. But in this hymn, the Theotokos refers always to Christ as the New Eve, "Zoe". They said this is because she gives her titles to Christ.

During the film, a clergyman said that the Orthodox teaching of the Theotokos' Dormition differs from the Catholic teaching of her Assumption.

Quote
The Orthodox Church specifically holds one of two Roman Catholic alternative beliefs, teaching that Mary died a natural death, like any human being; that her soul was received by Christ upon death; and that her body was resurrected on the third day after her repose, at which time she was taken up, bodily only, into heaven when the apostles, miraculously transported from the ends of the earth, found her tomb to be empty.
...
Both views agree that she was taken up into heaven bodily. The specific belief of the Orthodox is expressed in their liturgical texts used of the feast of the Dormition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dormition_of_the_Mother_of_God

There are famous Orthodox churches called "Assumption" (Uspenie, in Russian). Does this mean that the Assumption is also an Orthodox teaching, but that the Orthodox don't mean by this phrase that she avoided death, like some Catholics intend by the phrase?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2017, 07:00:15 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #72 on: December 17, 2017, 12:21:33 AM »
I'm watching the Greek Archdiocese's film "Enter In: Exploring the Feasts of the Church". In the section on the Exaltation of the Cross, they quote St John Chrysostom as saying that people have crosses to bear. He asks why then people are healed by God from their fatal crosses and live longer. And his answer is so that they can get more crosses to bear.

Gosh I would live to find and read this really in Chrysostom.

Quote
Here is the video's section on the Exaltation of the Cross:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzXSeJ4NmJI

They also talk about the feast of the entrance of the Theotokos into the Temple. The OCA website explains that in this holiday's event,
Quote
... the High Priest, through inspiration from above, led the Most Holy Virgin into the Holy of Holies, where only the High Priest entered once a year to offer a purifying sacrifice of blood. Therefore, all those present in the Temple were astonished at this most unusual occurrence.

...

DISCOURSE ON THE FEAST OF THE ENTRY OF OUR MOST PURE LADY THEOTOKOS INTO THE HOLY OF HOLIES

by Saint Gregory Palamas, Archbishop of Thessalonica
...
Now He finds a Handmaiden perfectly suited to these needs, the supplier of Her own unsullied nature, the Ever-Virgin now hymned by us, and Whose miraculous Entrance into the Temple, into the Holy of Holies, we now celebrate.
https://oca.org/saints/lives/2010/11/21/103357-the-entry-of-the-most-holy-mother-of-god-into-the-temple


During the video, two theologians say that she didn't actually enter into the Holy Holies, because that was something the high priest only did once a year. And one of the theologians says that even the high priest didn't really enter it, he only lifted a corner of the curtain of the Holy of Holies.

Here is the section of the video on the Entrance of the Theotokos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npRrdkXXjLI

So now even our religious academics are sitting at the feet of the Jews. I hate fads in academia, and "theology" is like any other humanity at this point -- let no one think it is not.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #73 on: January 28, 2018, 01:03:02 AM »
In the National Geographic video Secret Lives Of The Apostles, Dominic Crossan claims that the phenomenon of speaking in tongues at Pentecost was a matter of speaking national languages; "we are talking about instant Berlitz, everyone can speak every language."

I think that Acts 2 is not clear whether they were speaking national languages, or whether they were only speaking "other tongues", and the other tongues were interpreted by passersby in their own languages:
Quote
3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.
6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.

The video at 33:00 also portrays Paul's eating with gentiles as if the gentiles were converts. The incident is important because the apostles tell Peter not to eat with Paul's gentile friends. Do you agree that the apostles were warning Peter not to eat with gentile Christians, or was that just a ban against eating with gentile nonChristian acquaintances of Paul?
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5csrbYDQOg)
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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #74 on: January 28, 2018, 01:13:20 AM »
In the National Geographic video Secret Lives Of The Apostles, Dominic Crossan claims that the phenomenon of speaking in tongues at Pentecost was a matter of speaking national languages; "we are talking about instant Berlitz, everyone can speak every language."

I think that Acts 2 is not clear whether they were speaking national languages, or whether they were only speaking "other tongues", and the other tongues were interpreted by passersby in their own languages:
Quote
3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.
6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.

I think it's a bit of "six of one half dozen of the other," isn't it? The purpose of the tongues was so everyone could understand each other. What we might hear if we could have a "view from nowhere" copy of what was coming out of their mouths seems kind of a pointless question to me.

The video at 33:00 also portrays Paul's eating with gentiles as if the gentiles were converts. The incident is important because the apostles tell Peter not to eat with Paul's gentile friends. Do you agree that the apostles were warning Peter not to eat with gentile Christians, or was that just a ban against eating with gentile nonChristian acquaintances of Paul?
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5csrbYDQOg)

How could the Gentiles be non-Christians when this incident is what ultimately lead to the Council of Jerusalem's letter to Gentile converts?
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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #75 on: January 28, 2018, 01:18:00 AM »
So now even our religious academics are sitting at the feet of the Jews. I hate fads in academia, and "theology" is like any other humanity at this point -- let no one think it is not.

How is that "sitting at the feet of the Jews?" You sound like a paranoid antisemite.
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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #76 on: January 28, 2018, 01:38:42 AM »
The video at 33:00 also portrays Paul's eating with gentiles as if the gentiles were converts. The incident is important because the apostles tell Peter not to eat with Paul's gentile friends. Do you agree that the apostles were warning Peter not to eat with gentile Christians, or was that just a ban against eating with gentile nonChristian acquaintances of Paul?
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5csrbYDQOg)

Where in the chronology was this supposed to be taking place? According to Acts members of the Church, including Peter, were uncertain about how Christians should act among/towards gentiles, which was the reason that God gave Peter visions and sent him on a conversion mission (Acts 10-11). After that there seemed to be some within the body of believers who weren't on board or needed clarification (Acts 15), and even later these kinds of things were still causing tension (Acts 21:17-26). It seems that the real pivot point for all this was in Acts 10-11 though; St. Paul and some others had been dealing with Gentiles before that, but that's the point in the story when God makes sure the other apostles are on board (even if some "believers" remained in need of convincing or correction).
« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 01:39:38 AM by Asteriktos »
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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #77 on: January 28, 2018, 02:23:41 AM »
It's in Galatians 2:
11 But when Peter came to Antioch, I had to oppose him to his face, for what he did was very wrong. 12 When he first arrived, he ate with the Gentile believers, who were not circumcised. But afterward, when some friends of James came, Peter wouldn’t eat with the Gentiles anymore. He was afraid of criticism from these people who insisted on the necessity of circumcision. 13 As a result, other Jewish believers followed Peter’s hypocrisy, and even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy.



It's strange- James ends up taking a possibly opposite position at the council of Jerusalem. In Galatians 2,James demands that the gentiles be circumcised before eating with them, but at the council he decided uncircumcised Christians were legitimate and saved.

Was James practicing a kind of Messianic Judaism when it came to Halakha? And what about Peter's vision saying that eating unclean animals is ok?
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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #78 on: January 28, 2018, 01:44:44 PM »
You assume that the "men from James" actually represented his thought well. I'm not sure the context bears that out one way or another, especially in an age of very slow communication.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #79 on: March 03, 2018, 11:58:41 PM »
New movie coming out:
Paul, Apostle of Christ
http://www.paulmovie.com/site/
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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #80 on: September 03, 2018, 05:08:59 PM »
In the movie Biblical Prophecy of John, the narrator says of a local church of Laodecea described in John's Revelation and located in what is now in modern Turkey:
Quote
One of the members was Philemon. ... Philemon was a wealthy landowner in this area who owned many slaves. One of them was Onesimus whose name means useless, ran away. Paul met him, converted him to the faith and sent him back to his master Philemon. Recently archeologists here in Laodicea found a plaque to a Marcus Cestus Philemon for his benefactions to the city.. I wonder if their Philemon was our Philemon to whom Paul wrote in the New Testament?
It's interesting to see from archeology what a large role some of the mid 1st century Christians had in their local societies.
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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #81 on: September 03, 2018, 06:45:37 PM »
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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #82 on: September 06, 2018, 10:20:29 PM »
In The Early Christianity (From a Cult to a Religion) – How the First Christians Changed the World, the movie quotes the Fourth Commandment to keep the Sabbath holy. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-10k_sfs2g)
To paraphrase, the movie says:
Quote
The Christians become alienated from the Jews. ... Church leaders begin to devalue the sabbath for the more popular Roman Sunday. Some Christians mistakenly thought you should fast on the Sabbath but you could feast on Sunday. That's what the pagans did, they feasted on Sunday, fasted on Saturday. Not a Jewish concept. The Jews fasted on Friday, feasted on the Sabbath. So if your fasting on one day and feasting on the next, you can guess which becomes the more popular day.
What do you think, is there a contradiction in the two treatments of these days for a mid-first century faithful Christian Jew? On which day would he fast and on which would he feast, if he wanted to keep both holy in honor of both traditions to which he belonged?

Dr. Pettibone says:
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For alot of Christians, during this period of time would observe the sabbath and then onSunday they would have a service remembering the resurrection, and then they would go about their work. It's during the time of Constantine in which the idea of transferring the solemnity of the Sabbath to Sunday is expressed.
The narrator concludes:
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Centuries earlier, the prophet Daniel had foretold, a religious power would arise that would think to change times and laws. Within the ten commandments, there is only one law that is also a time - the Sabbath.

This probably refers to Daniel 7, which says:
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24. And the ten horns are ten kings who will rise from this kingdom. After them another king, different from the earlier ones, will rise and subdue three kings. 25. He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the set times and laws, and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time. 26. But the court will convene, and his dominion will be taken away and completely destroyed forever.
I don't think that this refers to Constantine, because he didn't speak against God, the Most High.

The movie also complains that the church began to use repetitive prayers, like when Catholics pray a large number of "Hail Mary"s as part of penance. It compares this to pagans making repetitive prayers to appease pagan deities and quotes Matthew 6:7, which goes: "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."
What do you think? For me, the difference between what Jesus was criticizing and the Catholic practice (or the Jesus prayer for example) is that the Catholics don't intend for their prayers to be vain.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 10:20:46 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #83 on: September 06, 2018, 11:30:14 PM »
Is this a Seventh Day Adventist film? I could see them making that argument.

I could also see Jewish antimissionaries arguing that Jesus is the changer of times and laws that Daniel foretold (or even Old Calendarists arguing that it's Pat. Athenagoras lol), so I'm not sure there's much objectivity to such an appeal.

In terms of the argument itself, I think the Council of Nicaea deciding to ditch 14 Nisan was the most definitive break with the Jewish past. All bets were off from that point. I don't know what the timeline of changes in the observance were up to that point (I'd imagine it was uneven, with variations on Sabbartarianism being a lot more common in places where Christians lived and worked closely with Jews).


And I think that if Jesus in Matthew is condemning all repetition, period, then a lot of the Psalms are in vain, too. Jesus must have been speaking about a particular kind of bad prayer--prayer without faith, perhaps. I need to read some Patristic commentaries on that verse.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 11:30:54 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #84 on: September 07, 2018, 12:07:07 AM »
Good points, thanks. I don't know who the movie producer is, but they must have been a Protestant group because of their criticisms of Catholicism.
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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #85 on: September 07, 2018, 01:21:12 AM »
In Banned from the Bible I, the movie says:
Quote
By the 4th c. the RC church [said] Mary remained a virgin throughout her life. Yet the Bible also reports the existence of Mary's 4 other sons and a number of unnamed daughters. And thus for some Christian believers, the question of Mary's perpetual virginity became a problem.
How might one defend the concept of her perpetual virginity while also accepting that Jesus had brothers and sisters? Is it that brothers and sisters referred to extended siblings like half brothers from Joseph or cousins? The movie says that the Protoevangelion gives the first answer, that they were Joseph's offspring, and that this answer was picked up by Church writers later.

In discussing the Gospel of Nicodemus, the movie says that this Gospel was popular among early Christians because "...it suggested that heaven and hell exist here and now on earth." The movie then interviews a Greek Orthodox priest from St Sophia's in Los Angeles, who says: "It is a holy tradition of the church to say that Jesus descended into the pit of despair, into the pit of darkness. Because what is hell? Hell is distance from God. Hell is being outside of the light and love of God."
Is this a correct description?




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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #86 on: September 07, 2018, 02:13:53 AM »
The "children of St. Joseph from a previous marriage" view is mainly based on the ambiguity of "adelphoi" (for example, Lot in the LXX is described as "adelphos" of Abraham, even though he was really Abraham's nephew), whereas I don't think there was a seperate word for "stepbrother" in the Greek parlance of the day. In the same vein, we could also perhaps consider the Theotokos to be their adopted mother (though this might step on some apologetics regarding John 19:25-29).

The "cousins" view is also possible, but seems less likely given that Greek did have a separate word for cousin, IIRC. St. Jerome is one of the few Fathers who believed this. I think the motivation was that (as I read somewhere or other) for some reason he thought that St. Joseph was a lifelong celibate.

Quote
Is this a correct description?

The priest is giving the standard River of Fire spiel, nothing really controversial there. But whatever the Gospel of Nicodemus really says about Hell, I'd bet dollars to donuts that the filmmakers want it to say that "Hell is in this life... because there is no Hell after death."

And sure enough, there were plenty of universalists in the early Church, but I have no idea if the author of the Gospel of Nicodemus was one of them or not (and if they were a universalist, whether they considered Hell as continuing after death and then ceasing at some point).

Or alternately, the filmmakers want "Hell is in this life" to imply that the author of the Gospel of Nicodemus doesn't believe in life after death. But that's a little less parsimonious, I suppose.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2018, 02:19:46 AM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #87 on: September 07, 2018, 02:58:05 AM »
In Banned from the Bible I, the movie says:
Quote
By the 4th c. the RC church [said] Mary remained a virgin throughout her life. Yet the Bible also reports the existence of Mary's 4 other sons and a number of unnamed daughters. And thus for some Christian believers, the question of Mary's perpetual virginity became a problem.
How might one defend the concept of her perpetual virginity while also accepting that Jesus had brothers and sisters? Is it that brothers and sisters referred to extended siblings like half brothers from Joseph or cousins? The movie says that the Protoevangelion gives the first answer, that they were Joseph's offspring, and that this answer was picked up by Church writers later.

In discussing the Gospel of Nicodemus, the movie says that this Gospel was popular among early Christians because "...it suggested that heaven and hell exist here and now on earth." The movie then interviews a Greek Orthodox priest from St Sophia's in Los Angeles, who says: "It is a holy tradition of the church to say that Jesus descended into the pit of despair, into the pit of darkness. Because what is hell? Hell is distance from God. Hell is being outside of the light and love of God."
Is this a correct description?


I mean, hell/hades could probably be described as a lot of things. That captures part of it...
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #88 on: September 08, 2018, 07:15:54 PM »
The movie "From Jesus to Christ: The First Christians" by PBS presents an alleged contradiction - the Synoptics propose that the Last Supper was on the Passover, whereas the Gospel of John suggests that the Last Supper was several days before the Passover.

The website Catholic.com clears up the discrepancy for me:
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According to The Navarre Study Bible, in Mark’s Gospel the Pharisees and Sadducees had a different way of celebrating feast days (51-52). The Pharisees were strict in their observance. If the fifteenth of Nisan fell on Friday, then that would be the day they celebrated the Passover. The Sadducees, on the other hand, were more liberal and had no problem with moving a feast day in certain situations. This practice is analogous to our modern practice of moving some feast days to Sunday when they actually occur during the week (as is commonly practiced with the feast of the Epiphany). It could also be likened to the bishops declaring a holy day not obligatory because of the day upon which it happens to fall. For example, if a holy day falls on a Friday, the bishops will sometimes dispense Catholics from the obligation of attending Mass on that particular holy day for that year.

What does all of this mean? When Jesus actually celebrated the Passover, he did it in the traditional way of the Pharisees. That is what we see in the synoptic Gospels. With the Pharisees, Jesus kept the Passover strictly in accord with what Moses said in Ex. 12. However, when John wrote about Christ’s passion, he does not put the emphasis on the Lord’s Supper that the synoptic Gospel writers do. In fact, he does not mention the Lord’s Supper at all. He emphasizes the crucifixion. Only in passing, as he describes the activity of the day, does John mention that it was "the day of preparation." John was not speaking of the practice of Jesus and the apostles; he was speaking of the practice of the Sadducees, who had a large number of priests in their camp and great influence in the culture at the time. This fact explains why John calls Friday the "day of preparation" instead of Thursday. The Sadducees, who moved the Passover to Saturday, celebrated the day of preparation on Friday, rather than on Thursday as Jesus and the apostles did.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/how-do-we-explain-the-passover-discrepancy

Otherwise, I liked the 2 Part movie and recommend it:
https://www.pbs.org/video/jesus-christ-first-christians-part-one-uosmze/
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Trailers from Christian movies
« Reply #89 on: September 08, 2018, 11:05:49 PM »
In the Documentary "The Beloved Disciple", in the Naked Archeologist Series, the movie tries to decide who the Beloved Disciple is at the Last Supper, Crucifixion, and empty tomb. Prof James Tabor of UNC says that in the Gospel of John, only some of the disciples are listed as being at the last supper and he concludes that the Beloved disciple must be unnamed in that list.

Prof. Tabor says that the Beloved Disciple must be his brother James, because at the Cross, Jesus says "Son, behold your mother", and in Judaism, the second son takes over the leading role in the family's heritage after the death of the oldest son.

James Charlesworth says that the Beloved Disciple hesitated before going into the tomb and waited for Peter to show up, and this is because Judaism demanded that one who enters a grave separate himself for purification for 6 days. He notes that Thomas wasn't there with the disciples when Jesus showed up after the resurrection, and so Thomas must have been purifying himself for 6 days, having been at the tomb. Charlesworth notes that Thomas wants to see the wound in the resurrected Jesus' side, and that Thomas would know about the side wound from seeing Jesus' crucifixion, since crucifixion victims weren't normally pierced.

He is named Didymus, meaning twin in Greek. This brings us back to the question of whose twin Thomas was that I raised on an earlier thread. Charlesworth notes that Thomas in Aramaic means twin.

The narrator toys with the idea that this could mean that Judah Thomas could be Jesus' son, because a twin looks like a brother like a son looks like his father. But this option doesn't sound good to me because I think Jesus said "Son behold your Mother" regarding the Virgin Mary, who certainly wasn't Jesus' wife.

The narrator also proposes that the beloved disciple is the young man in the garden of Gethsemane, since the beloved disciple isn't mentioned in John's gospel in the events betweent he last supper and crucifixion.

What do you think? I took the Beloved Disciple to refer to the disciple John.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2018, 11:07:10 PM by rakovsky »
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20