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Author Topic: Coptic Calendar and Liturgies (in Britain)  (Read 1625 times) Average Rating: 0
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Mexican
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« on: September 06, 2005, 03:30:36 AM »

Dear friends.

It's my understanding that the liturgy used by the Coptic Church on most ocasions (just as the Byzantine Church does with St. John Chrysostom Liturgy), is the Liturgy of St. Basil (which is not related to our St. Basil liturgy for 1th Jan and is not as long, solemn and ceremonius).

On special ocasions, while the Byzantine Church uses that of St. Basil, the Coptic Church has the Liturgy of St. Gregory (for Christmas, Resurrection, etc).

However I came across the site of the British Orthodox Church which is a diocese of the Coptic Church in Britain and they say that their liturgy is the Divine Liturgy of St. James.

Can someone explain me where this liturgy came from? Maybe all what I wrote before is wrong as I don't know very much about Oriental Orthodoxy.

I alays thought that Copts celebrated Christmas on January 7 according to the Julian Calendar but the French site as well as the British site say it's celebrated on 25th december.

The Coptic Church has a mission near my Mexican town (unbelievable) and there are some contradictions. They received some Mexican converts by Baptism (Byzantine Orthodox here do not re-baptize or re-chrismate people who received these mysteries at the Roman Church). However, the Egyptians before they had their church, attended Roman parishes regularly and even took communion there as the Egyptian Church permits this (they did not go to the Eastern Orthodox parishes though).

The fact that they are performing public conversions will probably get them in trouble with the Roman Church.

Does the Ethiopian Church use the same liturgies of the Coptic Church in Egypt???

Thanks
« Last Edit: September 06, 2005, 03:36:32 AM by Mexican » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2005, 10:49:44 AM »

It's my understanding that the liturgy used by the Coptic Church on most ocasions (just as the Byzantine Church does with St. John Chrysostom Liturgy), is the Liturgy of St. Basil (which is not related to our St. Basil liturgy for 1th Jan and is not as long, solemn and ceremonius).

Actually, if you read the texts of the anaphorae, you will see that there are similarities.

Quote
However I came across the site of the British Orthodox Church which is a diocese of the Coptic Church in Britain and they say that their liturgy is the Divine Liturgy of St. James.

Can someone explain me where this liturgy came from? Maybe all what I wrote before is wrong as I don't know very much about Oriental Orthodoxy.

The British Orthodox Church was an independent group which was canonically received into the Coptic Orthodox Church.  From what I know, and I could be wrong, they used the Byzantine St. James, and when they were received into the Church, they were allowed to continue using it. 

Quote
I alays thought that Copts celebrated Christmas on January 7 according to the Julian Calendar but the French site as well as the British site say it's celebrated on 25th december.

It may be that they are allowed to use the Gregorian calendar. 

Quote
The Coptic Church has a mission near my Mexican town (unbelievable) and there are some contradictions. They received some Mexican converts by Baptism (Byzantine Orthodox here do not re-baptize or re-chrismate people who received these mysteries at the Roman Church). However, the Egyptians before they had their church, attended Roman parishes regularly and even took communion there as the Egyptian Church permits this (they did not go to the Eastern Orthodox parishes though).

Hmm.  I don't know why they would choose to commune at RC churches rather than EO churches.  Possibly, the EO churches were not willing to commune them, and so they decided to go to the RC's.  I didn't know that their Church would've allowed them to seek out the Catholics in such a situation, though. 

Quote
Does the Ethiopian Church use the same liturgies of the Coptic Church in Egypt???

My suspicion is that while there may be certain structural similarities, they probably use something different from the Copts.
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Jonathan
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« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2005, 02:56:48 PM »

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On specil ocasions, while the Byzantine Church uses that of St. Basil, the Coptic Church has the Liturgy of St. Gregory (for Christmas, Resurrection, etc).

We also use St. Cyril's Liturgy during Lent.  St. Cyril's Liturgy is the translation and rearrangement of St. Mark's Liturgy.


Quote
However I came across the site of the British Orthodox Church which is a diocese of the Coptic Church in Britain and they say that their liturgy is the Divine Liturgy of St. James.

Can someone explain me where this liturgy came from? Maybe all what I wrote before is wrong as I don't know very much about Oriental Orthodoxy. 

The British Orthodox Church has revised thier Liturgy a few times... I can't remember exactly what they were using but I think it was a western Mass (anglican I think) heavily modified to be suitable to Orthodoxy... They described it as too ornate and ceremonious and disorganized with everything mixed together, so they eventually adopted the Liturgy of St. James, I believe after they were received into the Coptic Orthodox Church.  I don't know the exact reason for chosing that over St. Basil's that we use... I think they wanted to go a little shorter, but I believe there was also some connection there that I can't remember.

Quote
I alays thought that Copts celebrated Christmas on January 7 according to the Julian Calendar but the French site as well as the British site say it's celebrated on 25th december.

We celebrate Christmas on Jan 7 (on leap years our calander is out of synch and we actually should celebrate on Jan 8th, but we stay on the 7th to avoid confusion...), but the British and I guess also the French celebrate it on the 25, as they did before coming into the Coptic Church.

Quote
The Coptic Church has a mission near my Mexican town (unbelievable) and there are some contradictions. They received some Mexican converts by Baptism (Byzantine Orthodox here do not re-baptize or re-chrismate people who received these mysteries at the Roman Church). However, the Egyptians before they had their church, attended Roman parishes regularly and even took communion there as the Egyptian Church permits this (they did not go to the Eastern Orthodox parishes though).

Those not Baptised by tripple-immersion are received by Baptism, not as a statement that their Baptism was invalid, but kind of a better safe than sorry approach... We are not allowed to receive Communion at a Roman Catholic Church.  We're not strictly allowed to receive Communion at an Eastern Orthodox Church, but if it's the only option often there "silent approval" from the bishops... I've never head of anything like that with Catholics though.  Doesn't mean people won't do it though, and how people who chose to do so are dealt with would be up to the pastoral discretion of their father in confession.

Quote
The fact that they are performing public conversions will probably get them in trouble with the Roman Church.

What do you mean public?  Converts won't be turned away because of their background for political safety, but do you mean they were making a big show of it or something?

Quote
Does the Ethiopian Church use the same liturgies of the Coptic Church in Egypt???

Yes, same Liturgy.  It's hard to recognize it as such because their tunes are different and they're a lot more animated (and I think they use a drum instead of cymbols), but it's the same.  I'm not sure about St. Gregory's & St. Cyrils, but I know normally they use St. Basil's Liturgy anyways.
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Jonathan
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« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2005, 03:09:47 PM »

Found an article by H.E. Metropolitan Seraphim explaining why they chose St. James' Liturgy:

http://www.britishorthodox.org/stjames.php

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Mexican
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« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2005, 06:05:34 PM »

Hello

Thanks very much for the information, the text about St. James is interesting but the adoption of this liturgy by British Copts seems like a kind of liturgical archeologism. Now I understand why the Antiochian Orthodox Church tried to avoid these speculation when adopted its Western Rite.

Blessings

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Jonathan
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« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2005, 07:02:52 PM »

Just to clarify, Copts in Britan use the same Liturgy as anywhere else in the world, but the British Orthodox (who are also under the Coptic Patriarchate) have thier own rites.
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Tags: British Orthodox Church Coptic Orthodox Church calendar nativity conversion 
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