Author Topic: Who Are These Guys?  (Read 2337 times)

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Offline drewmeister2

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Who Are These Guys?
« on: September 06, 2005, 12:32:02 AM »
Who are these guys? http://www.uaoc.org/

Thanks :)
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Offline SeanMc

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Re: Who Are These Guys?
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2005, 12:41:42 AM »
Schismatics, I would venture to say. It claims to be the "Ukrainian Autocephalus Orthodox Church of North and South America and the Diaspora", but that's not at all possible b/c there is a separate EO Church in Canada, the UOCC, which is headed by the Ecumenical Patriarch.

It also has links to the "True Orthodox Church," which should raise some alarm bells as to it's canonical situation.

I don't know for sure, though.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2005, 12:44:42 AM by SeanMc »

Offline SeanMc

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Re: Who Are These Guys?
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2005, 01:12:16 AM »
Hold, I think I understand the situation better. There are two Ukrainian Orthodox Churches in Ukraine: one is under the Kiev Patriarchate and the other under the MP.  Now I guess the problem is whether or not the KP is canonical. It claims it was granted autocephaly, but it's hard to find official documents.

UAOC is in communion with the KP whereas the other ones are in communion with the MP. Apparently the Communists tried to force the Ukrainians to be with the MP and under it, that's what wikipedia said.

Offline Orthodoc

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Re: Who Are These Guys?
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2005, 10:52:21 AM »
Hold, I think I understand the situation better. There are two Ukrainian Orthodox Churches in Ukraine: one is under the Kiev Patriarchate and the other under the MP.ÂÂ  Now I guess the problem is whether or not the KP is canonical. It claims it was granted autocephaly, but it's hard to find official documents.

UAOC is in communion with the KP whereas the other ones are in communion with the MP. Apparently the Communists tried to force the Ukrainians to be with the MP and under it, that's what wikipedia said.

Neither the UOC-KP or the UAOC are canonical churches.ÂÂ  They are not recognized as such by any canonical autocephalous or automonous church in the world.

The UOC-Kp is headed by self proclaimed and defrocked former Bishop Filaret who was excommunicated by the ROC.ÂÂ  he was a strong Russiphile until he lost the bid for the Moscow Patriarchate.ÂÂ  He was married with children and supported by the KGB prior to the fall of communism.ÂÂ  He bacame a Ukrainiphile only fter being defrocked.

The act of excommunication can be found at -

http://www.russian-orthodox-church.org.ru/sobor09e.htm#6

ACT





ON EXCOMMUNICATION





of the monk Filaret Denisenko


1. The blessed Bishops' Council considered the antichurch activities of the monk Filaret Denisenko who was deprived of all priestly ranks by a Court order of the Bishops' Council on 11 June 1992 and who was warned by the Bishops' Council of 1994 that "should he continue to act uncanonically he will be excommunicated by anathema".

The blessed Bishops' Council now has to state with regret that the monk Filaret has not heeded the call addressed to him by the Mother Church to repent and in the period between Councils has continued his schismatic activities which he extended beyond the Russian Orthodox Church by facilitating the deepening of the schism in the fraternal Bulgarian Orthodox Church and by taking into communion schismatics from other Local Orthodox Churches; criminally ignoring the grounded banishment imposed by the lawful church authorities - his deposition - he has continued to perform sacrilegious "divine services", including blasphemous false consecrations without possessing the holy priesthood; the monk Filaret, to the temptation of many, has dared to call himself "patriarch of Kiev and Rus-Ukraine", while the ancient throne of Kiev is lawfully occupied by a canonical representative of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the rank of metropolitan; the monk Filaret has not ceased to blaspheme against the bishops, clergy and the faithful of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church which is in canonical communion with the Russian Orthodox Church and through her with the universal Orthodox Church, continuing to harm Orthodoxy in Ukraine by his criminal actions.

In view of the aforesaid, the blessed Bishops' Council on the basis of Apostolic canon 28 which says : "If a bishop, or a presbyter, or a deacon, lawfully deposed for his apparent faults dares to perform services once entrusted to him, he will be completely cut off from the Church", and also on the basis of canon 14 of the Council of Sardica, canon 4 of the Council of Antioch, and rule 88 of St.Basil the Great, unanimously decided:

To excommunicate monk Filaret (Mikhail Antonovich Denisenko). Let him be anathema before all people.

2. The blessed Bishops' Council, in view of the lack of repentance on the part of the monks Iakov Panchuk and Andrey Gorak, who participate in the criminal schismatic activities of the former monk Filaret, once again calls them to repent and stop these blasphemous outrages and warns them that otherwise they will be excommunicated by anathema.

3. The blessed Bishops' Council, caring for those who have erred and have been drawn into schism by the former monk Filaret, reminds all who dare communicate with him in prayers that according to the sacred canons, they, in case they do not break this communion, are subject to excommunication. St.Basil the Great said in rule 88, warning Protopresbyter Gregory whom he suspended: "If you without correcting yourself dare to celebrate, you will be anathema before all people, and those who accept you will be excommunicated".

4. The blessed Bishops' Council informs the Primates of the Local Orthodox Church of the excommunication of the former monk Filaret (Mikhail Antonovich Denisenko) by anathema.



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« Last Edit: September 06, 2005, 10:54:35 AM by Orthodoc »
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Offline heavymg

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Re: Who Are These Guys?
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2005, 06:36:28 PM »
wow, what a landmine for potential converts!
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Offline drewmeister2

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Re: Who Are These Guys?
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2005, 06:43:20 PM »
Thanks!  I can see why UOC-KP might not be canonical, but why isn't UAOC?
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Offline sdcheung

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Re: Who Are These Guys?
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2005, 06:51:33 PM »
wow, what a landmine for potential converts!

Which is? The Board? or the Plthora of Canonical and Non-Canonical Orthodox Churches out there?

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Offline SouthSerb99

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Re: Who Are These Guys?
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2005, 08:01:49 PM »
Interesting... because compare the original site posted to this http://www.soborna.org/news_eng/news_eng.htm.
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Offline drewmeister2

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Re: Who Are These Guys?
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2005, 08:46:41 PM »
Interesting... because compare the original site posted to this http://www.soborna.org/news_eng/news_eng.htm.

I think this group is canonical, whereas the other group isn't.  Not sure :).
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Offline Orthodoc

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Re: Who Are These Guys?
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2005, 10:09:07 PM »
Thanks!ÂÂ  I can see why UOC-KP might not be canonical, but why isn't UAOC?

Because, like its counterpart (the UOC-KP) its a self proclaimed church.  It did not receive its autocephally from its mother chrch.  If you are RC it would be similiar to the status of your SSPX group.

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Offline SouthSerb99

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Re: Who Are These Guys?
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2005, 08:22:16 AM »
I think this group is canonical, whereas the other group isn't.ÂÂ  Not sure :).

No.  Not canonical at all.  Just because they use the word "autocephalous" and "canonical" in their names, doesn't mean a hoot.
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Offline Silouan

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Re: Who Are These Guys?
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2005, 12:49:08 PM »
But the real question is are they in communion with Macedonia, since that is the standard of truth!

Offline SouthSerb99

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Re: Who Are These Guys?
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2005, 01:42:55 PM »
But the real question is are they in communion with Macedonia, since that is the standard of truth!

 ;D :D ;D  Ah, what a way to come back to the office.  I had a good chuckle at this one!!!
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Offline Mexican

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Re: Who Are These Guys?
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2005, 07:20:04 PM »
I had the same doubts so I investigated some time ago and here's a summary of facts.

In 1924 the EP issued a tomos of autocephaly restoring the Ukrainian Orthodox Church leaving Polish Orthodox Bishops in charge of forming their Holy Synod. However, when the USSR anexed Ukraine the movement was disbanded, the tomos was in practice rescinded, the Church re-incorporated to the MP and many autocephalists went to US and Canada.

Exiled Ukranians formed several short living jurisdictions, the largest part was received by the Ecumenical Patriarchate as a diocese for the USA and Canada, leaving the autocephaly thing out of discussion:

http://www.uocc.ca/
http://www.uocofusa.org/

(These are the only Canonical jurisdictions of Ukrainians in the USA).

After Ukraine's independence in the 1990's, many wanted to restore the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church and they chose Bishop Mstislav, who departed from America to Ukraine, as Patriarch but that Church was not recognized by World Orthodoxy as legitimate. Metropolitan Methodius is their present leader:
http://www.uaoc.org/

When Metropolitan Filaret (MP's Ukrainian Church head) was defrocked for the reasons that were already mentioned, he joined the autocephalists and wanted to become Patriarch but was disapproved by Mstislav's group who regarded him as a mere opportunist. The atempt for unity failed but Filaret was able to attract most of the UAOC supporters and set up his own Church as Patriarch:
http://www.kievpatr.org.ua

The smaller group, the UAOC after Mstislav's dead was affected by financial scandals and lost most of its influence. They suffered another schism in 2005 when Moisey, a Charismatic bishop of the American branch of the UAOC (which did not accept the union with Constantinople) proclaimed himself Patriarch and formed his own sect, the UAOC-C with a few hundred followers:
http://www.soborna.org/news_eng/news_eng.htm

This group never got recognition in Ukraine because of Moisey's pretentious attitude and excentric behaviour (ordination of teenagers to priesthood, sermons about re-incarnation, etc). Two of his American Bishops left him to create a new sect, the "Ukrainian Autonomous Orthodox Church of America" which was later joined by Moisey's bishops in Ukraine:
http://www.uaocamerica.org/

As you can see, while the first UAOC and the KP are un-canonical Orthodox Churches, Moisey's Church and the American faction have more in common with independent and "vagant" Internet groups than with the previous.

They are actualy an "eclectic" amalgam of Old-Catholic, Anglican and Ukrainian individuals who wouldn't be accepted by a real Church and who have no followers at all. They would accept anyone regardless of the validity of their orders and knowledge of Orthodoxy (the Western Rite folks among them are particularly doubtful).
« Last Edit: September 07, 2005, 08:04:18 PM by Mexican »

Offline SeanMc

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Re: Who Are These Guys?
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2005, 08:25:23 PM »
Is there a master list somewhere of all the canonical churches in all the countries? It would make everything much easier.

If there isn't, someone should make one (an perhaps even include details like autocephaly and which mother church it came from). Maybe I'll make it if it doesn't exist (at least, for Canada).
« Last Edit: September 07, 2005, 08:26:17 PM by SeanMc »

Offline Orthodoc

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Re: Who Are These Guys?
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2005, 11:17:07 AM »
Is there a master list somewhere of all the canonical churches in all the countries? It would make everything much easier.

If there isn't, someone should make one (an perhaps even include details like autocephaly and which mother church it came from). Maybe I'll make it if it doesn't exist (at least, for Canada).

Try Al Greene's website -

http://aggreen.net/orth_links/orthlink.html

Worldwide Canonical Orthodoxy -

http://aggreen.net/autocephaly/autoceph.html

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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Who Are These Guys?
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2005, 12:32:03 PM »
Mexican,

It should be remembered the the Polish Orthodox Synod did ordain bishops for the UAOC and they met the same fate as the Greek Catholics in Ukraine, liquidation at the hands of the Soviets and the MP.  The group that stayed loyal to Patriarch Mystislav are now under Metropolitan Constantine of the UOC-USA which in turn is under the EP.  So that faction, which is the original UAOC, is canonical or at least as canonical as ROCOR.

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