Author Topic: Jerusalem Patriarchate Sacked Palestinian Archbishop, Froze Salaries of Clergy  (Read 8151 times)

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Offline rakovsky

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This is because he doesn't have a see, really. All bishops in the Patriarchate of Jerusalem are basically titular and there are no diocesan structures. Met Atallah has also never been a member of the Holy Synod of Jerusalem, which includes some of the bishops as well as some monks, all chosen by the patriarch. Which is to say, the Patriarchate of Jerusalem is not at all structured like an Orthodox church.

Samn,

Thanks for writing in!


Since you are from that region, do you think you could please be able to provide some insight into this latest development or solid facts like others in this thread are asking for? They are saying we need some more info before making a judgment on what happened.

Second, could anything be legitimately and canonically done to address this situation or an even worse one?
Theoretically, for example, can this group of hierarchs do anything they want as long as it is within state law and not a heresy? If they wanted to close down 40% of parishes, stop funding Arab Christian social needs, stop paying any salaries to any Arab bishop, etc., what could anyone do canonically or realistically to stop them?

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Offline tcolon90

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Leaving the Constantinopolitan GOARCH for Antioch has nothing to do with the Church of Jerusalem jurisdictionally, except that they are both "Greek" Orthodox Churches, as opposed to "Slavic", "Romanian", "Georgian" or "Japanese".

I was going to point this out if someone else didn't.

And even if you did leave GOARCH for Antioch because Antioch isn't at present in communion with the JP, they are still in communion with everyone else who is still in communion with the JP. So it's not a real workaround, which I think is mike's point.

It's not meant to a workaround. It's a decision of conscience. churches aren't excommunicated overnight. A lot of times they remain canonical for years despite being in heresy, but before this happens local churches tend to break communion little by little until a synod is called to make a concrete decision.

There's a Schmemanite church near my house that I don't go to. I still recognize them as canonical but that doesn't mean that what they're doing is right. Just because a church is in communion doesn't mean that It's ok to go to it because many canonical churches do heretical and downright nasty things. Technically the Gifts are still valid but if no one takes the first steps of leaving than it will never be cut off.
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Offline benjohn146

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This is a bridge too far, Idk if I can remain in a Greek Church in good conscious, if this is going on by the Greek Heirarchs to our Arab brothers, and sisters. what the point to doing this? The Muslim will gain converts by saying that they preserve Arab culture to the Palestinian Orthodox Christians, while saying that the Greeks are hostile to it. Lord have mercy! I love the Greeks in my local Church, but being in communion with heirarchs like this is unsettling  :(

You dont go to Church for the priests or whoever is in charge, you go there for Christ and to work your way through to salvation.

No rudeness intended and i understand what you mean, just my humble opinion. Lord have mercy!
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Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Leaving the Constantinopolitan GOARCH for Antioch has nothing to do with the Church of Jerusalem jurisdictionally, except that they are both "Greek" Orthodox Churches, as opposed to "Slavic", "Romanian", "Georgian" or "Japanese".

I was going to point this out if someone else didn't.

And even if you did leave GOARCH for Antioch because Antioch isn't at present in communion with the JP, they are still in communion with everyone else who is still in communion with the JP. So it's not a real workaround, which I think is mike's point.

It's not meant to a workaround. It's a decision of conscience. churches aren't excommunicated overnight. A lot of times they remain canonical for years despite being in heresy, but before this happens local churches tend to break communion little by little until a synod is called to make a concrete decision.

There's a Schmemanite church near my house that I don't go to. I still recognize them as canonical but that doesn't mean that what they're doing is right. Just because a church is in communion doesn't mean that It's ok to go to it because many canonical churches do heretical and downright nasty things. Technically the Gifts are still valid but if no one takes the first steps of leaving than it will never be cut off.
Schmemanite? Is that like Maronite or Mennonite?
Seriously, what do you mean by that?
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Offline benjohn146

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While I can understand being displeased with the manner in which the Greek Orthodox Church is dealing with this situation; I can't follow the logic of leaving a parish in the USA that is connected only via jurisdiction. I attended an Antiochian parish for almost a decade. I started attending another Antiochian parish that was less than ideal after we moved, and have now started attending third Antiochian parish that our family loves. By your logic I should have shunned all Antiochian parishes because of the unpleasant experience I had with the second one I attended.

Your choice to attend or not attend a parish in the US has zero impact upon how the Greek Church treats Palestinians in Jerusalem. The church itself is an institution that cares very little for PR issues like parish members leaving in "protest."

I wonder, does this effect Fr. Av Aleksandr? I think I recall that he was a priest in Isreal that worked extensively with Palestinians. I am no longer on Facebook, so I haven't checked up on him lately.

OK this makes much more sense, unlike Mike who accuses people like a rude jerk. The fact I'm concerned about a situation where Orthodox Arabs are treated as second class, doesn't equal leaving the Church. Is Mike always a angry rude disrespectful jerk to people?

From experience: yes. It is always simple with him and he have all the good answers to everybody's problems.  ;)

Just dont pay attention to him, forgive him and focus on the Lord instead.  :)
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Offline tcolon90

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Leaving the Constantinopolitan GOARCH for Antioch has nothing to do with the Church of Jerusalem jurisdictionally, except that they are both "Greek" Orthodox Churches, as opposed to "Slavic", "Romanian", "Georgian" or "Japanese".

I was going to point this out if someone else didn't.

And even if you did leave GOARCH for Antioch because Antioch isn't at present in communion with the JP, they are still in communion with everyone else who is still in communion with the JP. So it's not a real workaround, which I think is mike's point.

It's not meant to a workaround. It's a decision of conscience. churches aren't excommunicated overnight. A lot of times they remain canonical for years despite being in heresy, but before this happens local churches tend to break communion little by little until a synod is called to make a concrete decision.

There's a Schmemanite church near my house that I don't go to. I still recognize them as canonical but that doesn't mean that what they're doing is right. Just because a church is in communion doesn't mean that It's ok to go to it because many canonical churches do heretical and downright nasty things. Technically the Gifts are still valid but if no one takes the first steps of leaving than it will never be cut off.
Schmemanite? Is that like Maronite or Mennonite?
Seriously, what do you mean by that?

It's a term some people use around here to describe churches which are influenced by the teachings of Fr. Schmeman (forgive me if my spelling of his name is wrong).
"For where the body is, the eagles will gather."

Offline tcolon90

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While I can understand being displeased with the manner in which the Greek Orthodox Church is dealing with this situation; I can't follow the logic of leaving a parish in the USA that is connected only via jurisdiction. I attended an Antiochian parish for almost a decade. I started attending another Antiochian parish that was less than ideal after we moved, and have now started attending third Antiochian parish that our family loves. By your logic I should have shunned all Antiochian parishes because of the unpleasant experience I had with the second one I attended.

Your choice to attend or not attend a parish in the US has zero impact upon how the Greek Church treats Palestinians in Jerusalem. The church itself is an institution that cares very little for PR issues like parish members leaving in "protest."

I wonder, does this effect Fr. Av Aleksandr? I think I recall that he was a priest in Isreal that worked extensively with Palestinians. I am no longer on Facebook, so I haven't checked up on him lately.

OK this makes much more sense, unlike Mike who accuses people like a rude jerk. The fact I'm concerned about a situation where Orthodox Arabs are treated as second class, doesn't equal leaving the Church. Is Mike always a angry rude disrespectful jerk to people?

From experience: yes. It is always simple with him and he have all the good answers to everybody's problems.  ;)

Just dont pay attention to him, forgive him and focus on the Lord instead.  :)

He seems to be the type of person who thinks that because he's an expert on canon law, ecclessiology, and fasting perfectly that he has a right to treat other people's souls like expendable garbage. I think the Bible calls them Pharisees.


Please do not jugde, especially in public, since it is not Christian attitude. Unfortunately, you have done it in this reply and in the reply number 44.
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« Last Edit: December 05, 2016, 09:21:18 AM by Dominika »
"For where the body is, the eagles will gather."

Offline benjohn146

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Before you all decide to attack each other:

1) You do not know all the facts, so, stop jumping to conclusions which only hurt the Church and her faithful
2) No matter your jurisdiction/calendar, you are in the midst of the Nativity Fast....cool your engines.

Wisdom! Let us be attentive!  ;)
St Makarios, pray for us.

Offline benjohn146

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While I can understand being displeased with the manner in which the Greek Orthodox Church is dealing with this situation; I can't follow the logic of leaving a parish in the USA that is connected only via jurisdiction. I attended an Antiochian parish for almost a decade. I started attending another Antiochian parish that was less than ideal after we moved, and have now started attending third Antiochian parish that our family loves. By your logic I should have shunned all Antiochian parishes because of the unpleasant experience I had with the second one I attended.

Your choice to attend or not attend a parish in the US has zero impact upon how the Greek Church treats Palestinians in Jerusalem. The church itself is an institution that cares very little for PR issues like parish members leaving in "protest."

I wonder, does this effect Fr. Av Aleksandr? I think I recall that he was a priest in Isreal that worked extensively with Palestinians. I am no longer on Facebook, so I haven't checked up on him lately.

OK this makes much more sense, unlike Mike who accuses people like a rude jerk. The fact I'm concerned about a situation where Orthodox Arabs are treated as second class, doesn't equal leaving the Church. Is Mike always a angry rude disrespectful jerk to people?

From experience: yes. It is always simple with him and he have all the good answers to everybody's problems.  ;)

Just dont pay attention to him, forgive him and focus on the Lord instead.  :)

He seems to be the type of person who thinks that because he's an expert on canon law, ecclessiology, and fasting perfectly that he has a right to treat other people's souls like expendable garbage. I think the Bible calls them Pharisees.

Maybe. And i do appreciate his knowledge. I do not speak with authority but i think we should leave the judgement to God and focus on our own sinfulness. Let us just have a prayer to help our brother in Christ Mike.

Lord have mercy!
St Makarios, pray for us.

Offline IreneOlinyk

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I think the Alexandrian Patriarchate is also a good example, at least in its missionary efforts in Africa, but it's also in good relations with Copts and with Orthodox Arab Egyptians too.
Alexandria even has a couple of black bishops. Also, given the revival of the Albanian Church from scratch, I imagine choosing a Greek bishop may have been a matter of necessity?
The people in the parishes in Albania are of Greek ethnicity and historically were Orthodox Christians belonging to the Geek Orthodox Church.  That area of Europe has a history of ethnic minorities and empire falling and borders changing.   

Offline RaphaCam

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The people in the parishes in Albania are of Greek ethnicity and historically were Orthodox Christians belonging to the Geek Orthodox Church.  That area of Europe has a history of ethnic minorities and empire falling and borders changing.
I know, but Archbishop Anastasios was actually born in Greek territory having himself little to no ties to Albania. I'm not judging him for that in any way, though.
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Offline scamandrius

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The people in the parishes in Albania are of Greek ethnicity and historically were Orthodox Christians belonging to the Geek Orthodox Church.  That area of Europe has a history of ethnic minorities and empire falling and borders changing.
I know, but Archbishop Anastasios was actually born in Greek territory having himself little to no ties to Albania. I'm not judging him for that in any way, though.

So the Church of Albania should wait until they get a hierarch who is sufficiently "Albanian"?  If he's the right man for the job, he's the right man for the job regardless of his ethnicity. 
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Offline Samn!

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This is because he doesn't have a see, really. All bishops in the Patriarchate of Jerusalem are basically titular and there are no diocesan structures. Met Atallah has also never been a member of the Holy Synod of Jerusalem, which includes some of the bishops as well as some monks, all chosen by the patriarch. Which is to say, the Patriarchate of Jerusalem is not at all structured like an Orthodox church.

Samn,

Thanks for writing in!


Since you are from that region, do you think you could please be able to provide some insight into this latest development or solid facts like others in this thread are asking for? They are saying we need some more info before making a judgment on what happened.

Second, could anything be legitimately and canonically done to address this situation or an even worse one?
Theoretically, for example, can this group of hierarchs do anything they want as long as it is within state law and not a heresy? If they wanted to close down 40% of parishes, stop funding Arab Christian social needs, stop paying any salaries to any Arab bishop, etc., what could anyone do canonically or realistically to stop them?


I don't have details for exactly what happened. I've seen this report and  the Arabic report it was based on, as well as one or two statements from minor Palestinian politicians. I haven't seen any reports from fully reliable sources in any language I read and I'm waiting to hear a more detailed account of what's going on. But to be honest, I wasn't aware that they had resumed paying Met Atallah's salary after they had cancelled it the last time a couple years ago.

In any case, nothing in this report is different from what happened in 2014. It had seemed that the Jerusalem Patriarchate was making a few more symbolic concessions in the past year-- not only allowing Archimandrite Christophoros to remain at his monastery, but also taking him to Crete in June to serve the liturgy there in Arabic.

As for a what-to-do, it's not fully my place to say from my own position of comfort outside Palestine. I think the most important things that can be done by people not directly involved is to build contacts with the Palestinian and Jordanan faithful to understand where they're coming from and let them know that they're not cut off from the rest of the world and then, secondarily, to be more educated about just how anomalous and, frankly, unorthodox the institution of the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulcher is.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2016, 01:32:43 AM by Samn! »

Offline Fr.Kaisarios

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I love the Greeks in my local Church, but being in communion with heirarchs like this is unsettling  :(

They might have serious reasons for doing like this. Let's abstain from condemning anyone. During the Lent at least...
I believe that by the mercy of God Orthodox Christians in the Middle East won't be left outside the Church.

Offline Dominika

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I think the Alexandrian Patriarchate is also a good example, at least in its missionary efforts in Africa, but it's also in good relations with Copts and with Orthodox Arab Egyptians too.
Alexandria even has a couple of black bishops. Also, given the revival of the Albanian Church from scratch, I imagine choosing a Greek bishop may have been a matter of necessity?
The people in the parishes in Albania are of Greek ethnicity and historically were Orthodox Christians belonging to the Geek Orthodox Church.  That area of Europe has a history of ethnic minorities and empire falling and borders changing.

As far I know it's not so easy - I mean, not all of them were Greeks, but Albanians (the same like in the territory of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth not all Orthodox were of various Rusyn background, but among them were e.g some Poles), however suprsed by Greek in Church and Muslims as for state rulers. You can read more about the beginning of the Albanian autocehpaly and the activity of metropolitan Fan (Noli).
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Offline IreneOlinyk

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I think the Alexandrian Patriarchate is also a good example, at least in its missionary efforts in Africa, but it's also in good relations with Copts and with Orthodox Arab Egyptians too.
Alexandria even has a couple of black bishops. Also, given the revival of the Albanian Church from scratch, I imagine choosing a Greek bishop may have been a matter of necessity?
The people in the parishes in Albania are of Greek ethnicity and historically were Orthodox Christians belonging to the Geek Orthodox Church.  That area of Europe has a history of ethnic minorities and empire falling and borders changing.

As far I know it's not so easy - I mean, not all of them were Greeks, but Albanians (the same like in the territory of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth not all Orthodox were of various Rusyn background, but among them were e.g some Poles), however suprsed by Greek in Church and Muslims as for state rulers. You can read more about the beginning of the Albanian autocehpaly and the activity of Metropolitan Fan (Noli). 

Metropolitan Fan Noli is well know in North America.  He was ordained in the USA and celebrated the first liturgy in the Albanian language in 1908 in Boston.
I base my comments on the article in the Blackwell Dictionary of Eastern Christianity pages 15 to 17.  This article deals with all the issues of competing empires and also the connection between the minority Christian Albanians who are Catholics and Muslims and Orthodox. 
In addition everything I have read online about Archbishop Anastasios and his ministry in Albania has been very positive.  He seems to be well loved by his flock.

Offline RaphaCam

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The people in the parishes in Albania are of Greek ethnicity and historically were Orthodox Christians belonging to the Geek Orthodox Church.  That area of Europe has a history of ethnic minorities and empire falling and borders changing.
I know, but Archbishop Anastasios was actually born in Greek territory having himself little to no ties to Albania. I'm not judging him for that in any way, though.

So the Church of Albania should wait until they get a hierarch who is sufficiently "Albanian"?  If he's the right man for the job, he's the right man for the job regardless of his ethnicity.
I know, but Archbishop Anastasios was actually born in Greek territory having himself little to no ties to Albania. I'm not judging him for that in any way, though. I'm not judging him for that in any way, though. I'm not judging him for that in any way, though. I'm not judging him for that in any way, though. I'm not judging him for that in any way, though. I'm not judging him for that in any way, though. I'm not judging him for that in any way, though. I'm not judging him for that in any way, though. I'm not judging him for that in any way, though. I'm not judging him for that in any way, though. I'm not judging him for that in any way, though. I'm not judging him for that in any way, though. I'm not judging him for that in any way, though. I'm not judging him for that in any way, though. I'm not judging him for that in any way, though. I'm not judging him for that in any way, though. I'm not judging him for that in any way, though. I'm not judging him for that in any way, though. I'm not judging him for that in any way, though. I'm not judging him for that in any way, though. I'm not judging him for that in any way, though.

You should really stop reading into stuff.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2016, 10:51:58 AM by RaphaCam »
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Offline rakovsky

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As for a what-to-do, it's not fully my place to say from my own position of comfort outside Palestine.
OK, well, can we please consider a more theoretical scenario then, as opposed to thinking about Palestine in its current circumstances and consider what the options are? This will help me understand how Orthodoxy works in practice.

Let's say that the Orthodox hierarchy, ie. 2/3 of the bishops and the Patriarch in Palestine decide on a program that is destructive of the Church. Let's say for example they close down 80% of churches, freeze the other third's salaries, close down any Orthodox charities, close down almost all the monasteries, ban services in any language but Greek, and take all kinds of other destructive policies, but stop short of violating canon law or state law or teaching heresy. In a scenario like that, what could be done to stop this within the bounds of the canons and the organizational structure of the Jerusalem Patriarchate?
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Offline Iconodule

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You have interesting concept of what "theoretical scenario" means.
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Offline orthoreader

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The Greeks certainly have an interesting way of spreading the Gospel.

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Thinking about it, I am less and less convinced that hellenocentrism at the Church of Jerusalem is  exclusively  a bad thing.

I've been thinking you ought be governed by some ex American Baptist convert.

English, please.

In my mind, I came to this conclusion: I am growing more convinced an american baptist ought follow you around and bark orders at you, and you ought follow them.

My reasoning is that as the Church of  Jerusalem operates on the  teritory of 3 countries, two of which are hostile to each other it is wise to  have  leadership  from the third party so that they do not antagonize the situation further.
not when it is trying to destroy one of the parties.
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Offline seekeroftruth777

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I love the Greeks in my local Church, but being in communion with heirarchs like this is unsettling  :(

They might have serious reasons for doing like this. Let's abstain from condemning anyone. During the Lent at least...
I believe that by the mercy of God Orthodox Christians in the Middle East won't be left outside the Church.

Your right father, we shouldn't judge, however don't you mean nativity, and not Lent?

Offline IreneOlinyk

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I love the Greeks in my local Church, but being in communion with heirarchs like this is unsettling  :(

They might have serious reasons for doing like this. Let's abstain from condemning anyone. During the Lent at least...
I believe that by the mercy of God Orthodox Christians in the Middle East won't be left outside the Church.
This lent is known in some languages as the "little lent".
Your right father, we shouldn't judge, however don't you mean nativity, and not Lent?