Author Topic: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?  (Read 4237 times)

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Online LivenotoneviL

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #90 on: August 22, 2017, 12:34:01 AM »
I've actually called and spoken with several vagantes.  All of them were cranks except one, who wasnt a bishop but a priest in a larger "vagante jurisdiction" somewhere between Anglicanism and Orthodoxy theologically.  He had been a monk in canonical Eastern and Western rite communities; I don't entirely understand the basis for his decision to work outside the canonical church, but his church, alhoufh miniscule, used to own property and run a soup kitchen, until they ran out of money, and still has legit parishioners.  I found him to be pious; he works for a bishop who is a vagante, from a canonical perspective, but nonetheless, this particular man was a decent man.
Thank you for trying to steer us back on topic, lol.

There are actually pretenders out there, not on the grand scale I just outlined, but you will find fake scholars wih degrees from bogus universities, fake monastics, unauathorized hermits, and the odd fake priest.  I know of a priest who has a church in California, near the CalNeVa border, who celebrates the Tridentine rite, but who does not admit on his website the connection to any bishop; he is clearly of the SSPX or SSPV mentality but does not appear to be affiliated with any traditional Catholic or sedevacantist bishops.

I'm reminded of the "Light of the Spirit Monastery," formerly "Light of Christ Monastery," formerly "Holy Protection Gnostic Orthodox Monastery," a group by the self-proclaimed Abbot Bishop George Burke, who currently celebrates mass as a vangate in the Tridentine Rite, but encourages Hindu spirituality, believing in the Hindu idols and worships those said idols. On top of believing in Yoga as a legitimate, Christian spiritual exercise, his group also encourages Tarot Cards for spiritual communication.

Some people might think I'm making this up, connecting Tarot Cards and Hinduism to demonic spirituality, but I remember someone interested in this group being disturbed by their handing out of free Tarot Cards and realizing their blasphemous acts. I also listed a website which has links to their books where they encourage spiritual communication and Tarot.

They started in Oklahoma City, moved to Nebraska, moved to California, and are now located in New Mexico.

He originally was a member of the OCA, but then started learning about Yogananda and visited Holy Transfiguration Monastery, but then he started a strictly Hindu group, but then converted it to a Hindu-Old Catholicism group, where he was consecrated by an Old Catholic bishop, and then converted the group to Eastern Orthodox-Hinduism, and then Coptic Orthodox-Hinduism, and now they are Catholic-Hindu again.

This monastic community also owns "Monastery Icons," which unfortunately has sold their products to both Roman Catholics and Orthodox alike - and in both churches I have seen their icons used.
https://www.monasteryicons.com/

AVOID BUYING FROM THIS SITE AT ALL COSTS!

You can read more about them here if you aren't familiar with them:

http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/monasteryicons.aspx
https://www.aquinasandmore.com/blog/beware-of-monastery-icons/


May Lord have mercy on his soul....God, forgive them, for they know not what they do!

In the Evangelical movement, and related regions of Protestantism,  the Invisible Church ecclesiology leads to a condition where one could open up a church on one's own, legitimately and without the approval of any authority other than one's own sense of divine instruction from the Holy Spirit.


It is for this reason why I believe most cradle-Protestants, and a significant portion of cradle-Catholics and cradle-Orthodox have subscribed into believing moral relativism and deism, because they see all the contradictions that result from such a flawed idea.

I understand your objections to their syncretic heresy and agree with them entirely.   That is gross heresy and horrible.

That said, I can't agree that people should avoid buying icons through their website; the icons they sell appear to be standard designs, I strongly doubt that the "Abbot Bishop" paints them himself, and if his website connects genuine Orthodox and Catholic icon painters and manufacturers to parishes, from a free market perspective, that's a good thing, helpful to the parishes and helpful to the painters and printers who produce icons.  I don't believe these icons would in any way be cursed simply by virtue of passing through an ecommerce website run by a man who thinks he's a bishop, but who is more accurately described as a crank, wacko and heresiarch.  That said, I would respect the decision of any who chose not to use that website for the reasons you stated (although suppose he sells it to someone who is genuinely Orthodox or Catholic?  Ecommerce sites change hands all the time)

You are right about the demonic aspects of tarot cards however.

Now, here is something else to consider: if a heretic, even an heresiarch, was at risk of starving or perishing from exposure, I would not hesitate to come to their assistance were it within my power to do so.  Indeed, by ministering to these people, we can show them the true light of Christ and help them to return to the fold.  The thing I would not do, ever, is say to a heresiarch vagante bishop "I'll feed you only if you renounce your heresies and return to the True Church."  God's love is unconditional, and so should our love also be unconditional.

Well, a few things to respond to.

For your first point, as to the spiritual nature of these images -
according to Father Anthony Nelson, who wrote the respective Orthodox Info article -

"They have one “iconographer” there who paints all their pictures...All are “blessed” with one of their occult rituals before being shipped, and they support themselves to the tune of several hundred thousand dollars per year selling the demonic things....Please don’t buy their pictures—they are spiritually very dangerous."

This is a bold accusation which for me, is enough for me to look elsewhere.

And while I see your analogy, I don't know if I would agree with that completely - if someone decides to sell drugs to make a living, I wouldn't buy their drugs out of sympathy in order to give them financial aid - if I saw they needed money, I would give it to them directly and would at several points - if I knew the person and they would listen to me - try to convince them to change their life around to find happiness. Buying their drugs suggests that I give assent and approval to such a horrible business practice. I wouldn't give assent to their "spiritual products," which, from a moral perspective, seems to implicitly condone their actions and approve of the images they use in their worship.

I think that if one of these icons are blessed and are Orthodox in nature, it can be used just fine if absolutely necessary - but still, there are plenty of options to find beautiful and diverse Orthodox iconography, and give money to poorer - in communion - Orthodox iconographers. The Monastery Icons store has a much larger market in the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church and is financially successful compared to legitimate, in communion Orthodox book stores.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 12:36:05 AM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
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Online LivenotoneviL

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #91 on: August 22, 2017, 12:35:03 AM »
I think you misunderstand. I'm not talking about the passions of the supplicant, but of the icon.

Explain. I still don't understand - how would this Russian icon of the Theotokos be spiritually unfit for veneration?
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #92 on: August 22, 2017, 12:36:00 AM »
Is that what I said?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #93 on: August 22, 2017, 12:37:15 AM »
Is that what I said?

Now look at the painting of our Lady here and see if it does not affect you with a rush of mortal sentiment much as would a Kewpie doll or at least a heroine in an old movie. That part of man the orientals called the bowels is stirred, rather than reminded to be passionless as heaven.

This idea implies my quotation, as if the consequence of this icon is this reaction, how can it be spiritually fit for veneration and used in prayer?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 12:38:56 AM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
-Saint John of Kronstadt

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #94 on: August 22, 2017, 12:47:37 AM »
I think there is better and worse. I think the traits I listed above are important.

In the West, it came to be that religious paintings were technically-dazzling portraits of the artist's mistress or perhaps just of a vividly-imagined person. Strong passions were captured in paint and stone. All this devolved into sensationalism and sentiment in the following centuries. The effect is to tie the mind to this world.

As I began with above, true art is not a product of ambition or imagination but a faithful use of skill in  within traditional confines to work a traditional symbolic language. It is art only in the sense of tekhne -- the modern usage of the word is something very different indeed.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #95 on: August 22, 2017, 01:33:35 AM »
Many of the places that sell icons, books, etc. are criticized by someone, somewhere. The place considered by some people to have the best Psalter (and other materials) had seemingly credible charges of abusing monks leveled against it. Several places with good Orthodox materials (sometimes the only place you can get them anymore) on the west coast are run by old calendarist 'schismatics.' Fr. (St? lol) Seraphim Rose said decades ago that Jordanville was the only seminary/school which hadn't fallen victim to modernism or ecumenism or some-such, so there goes St. Vladimirs, St. Tikhons, and Holy Cross. And so on and so on.

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #96 on: August 22, 2017, 02:07:37 AM »
Yeah but isn't this the publisher that sells gay-friendly icons painted by that activist Franciscan?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #97 on: August 22, 2017, 05:55:29 AM »
The icons sold by "Monastery Icons" aren't bad just because it's a new age sect (though that should be enough to avoid sending them money). They are ugly, dull, soulless. Their resemblance to classic Orthodox icons is superficial. "But they are standard designs" is a maddening defense for bad art. This is why viewing iconography as simply ticking off a set of boxes is dangerous.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 06:06:05 AM by Iconodule »
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“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #98 on: August 22, 2017, 06:02:10 AM »
Example:



Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline LBK

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #99 on: August 22, 2017, 06:16:20 AM »
They are ugly, dull, soulless.

Completely agree. I'd also add "devoid of any spiritual power". No Life (sic) in them.

Example:





And that one's one of their "better" ones. Not that it's any good. Churned out, cookie-cutter Photoshopped pap.  :P
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 06:16:57 AM by LBK »
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Online LivenotoneviL

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #100 on: August 22, 2017, 07:20:45 AM »
I think there is better and worse. I think the traits I listed above are important.

In the West, it came to be that religious paintings were technically-dazzling portraits of the artist's mistress or perhaps just of a vividly-imagined person. Strong passions were captured in paint and stone. All this devolved into sensationalism and sentiment in the following centuries. The effect is to tie the mind to this world.

As I began with above, true art is not a product of ambition or imagination but a faithful use of skill in  within traditional confines to work a traditional symbolic language. It is art only in the sense of tekhne -- the modern usage of the word is something very different indeed.

OK, cool - I agree with this.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 07:24:21 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #101 on: August 22, 2017, 07:31:10 AM »
They are ugly, dull, soulless.

Completely agree. I'd also add "devoid of any spiritual power". No Life (sic) in them.

Example:





And that one's one of their "better" ones. Not that it's any good. Churned out, cookie-cutter Photoshopped pap.  :P


I also personally think that they don't do a good job either at adapting contemporary "saints" into their iconographic style.


"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
-Saint John of Kronstadt

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #102 on: August 22, 2017, 07:33:41 AM »
Many of the places that sell icons, books, etc. are criticized by someone, somewhere. The place considered by some people to have the best Psalter (and other materials) had seemingly credible charges of abusing monks leveled against it. Several places with good Orthodox materials (sometimes the only place you can get them anymore) on the west coast are run by old calendarist 'schismatics.' Fr. (St? lol) Seraphim Rose said decades ago that Jordanville was the only seminary/school which hadn't fallen victim to modernism or ecumenism or some-such, so there goes St. Vladimirs, St. Tikhons, and Holy Cross. And so on and so on.

Even despite this, I wonder who would say that "Monastery Icons" is a more viable option to purchase products from in comparison to ANY of the previously mentioned places.
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
-Saint John of Kronstadt

Offline LBK

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #103 on: August 22, 2017, 08:12:12 AM »

I also personally think that they don't do a good job either at adapting contemporary "saints" into their iconographic style.



That's a major pitfall when working from photographs. Mind you, there are Orthodox iconographers who are also guilty of this.  :P
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #104 on: August 22, 2017, 04:59:52 PM »
I guess for me, supposing the thing already counts as an icon, the art in itself is so secondary that I often look past it when other factors are involved. So if an an icon is: a computer printout, or a bulletin from a church, or a piece of paper mounted on wood and sold at a monastery bookstore, or a $500 commissioned icon, I see none as being any more or less holy or effective, so it all amounts largely to the same to me. That isn't to say that I haven't compared icons before and chose the one I found more appealing; it's just that that seems somewhat down the list, and one of the later factors to take into consideration. And then there are plenty of icons of less known saints which you have limited choices for... you're happy if you find one.

The other thing I was trying to comment on in my last post was that everyone draws lines in the sand at different places, and you shouldn't really expect everyone else to suddenly refuse business to a certain place just because you've decided to. And personally I rarely find the 'lines in the sand' drawn by orthodoxinfo articles to match my own. If Matthew Heimbach prints an icon of St. Justin Popovich on his printer and hands it to me, and it's the same thing as you could buy from a reputable seller, I may dislike the origin, but I'm not going to say it's not a real icon, and so far as I know many Orthodox would say you're doing a naughty naughty thing by treating it with disdain, disrespectfully disposing of it, or whatever.

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #105 on: August 22, 2017, 05:06:56 PM »
My parish uses "monastery icons" unfortunately for most feast days. I venerate them without misgivings- my respect goes to the saints and not the weird sect that produced these images. Still if I had any say in the matter, I would strongly warn against purchasing any more icons from them.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #106 on: August 22, 2017, 05:19:10 PM »
I guess for me, supposing the thing already counts as an icon, the art in itself is so secondary that I often look past it when other factors are involved. So if an an icon is: a computer printout, or a bulletin from a church, or a piece of paper mounted on wood and sold at a monastery bookstore, or a $500 commissioned icon, I see none as being any more or less holy or effective, so it all amounts largely to the same to me. That isn't to say that I haven't compared icons before and chose the one I found more appealing; it's just that that seems somewhat down the list, and one of the later factors to take into consideration. And then there are plenty of icons of less known saints which you have limited choices for... you're happy if you find one.

The other thing I was trying to comment on in my last post was that everyone draws lines in the sand at different places, and you shouldn't really expect everyone else to suddenly refuse business to a certain place just because you've decided to. And personally I rarely find the 'lines in the sand' drawn by orthodoxinfo articles to match my own. If Matthew Heimbach prints an icon of St. Justin Popovich on his printer and hands it to me, and it's the same thing as you could buy from a reputable seller, I may dislike the origin, but I'm not going to say it's not a real icon, and so far as I know many Orthodox would say you're doing a naughty naughty thing by treating it with disdain, disrespectfully disposing of it, or whatever.

What you're literally posting in objection to in this thread is someone voicing an opinion of "Monastery Icons."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #107 on: August 22, 2017, 08:12:27 PM »
I guess for me, supposing the thing already counts as an icon, the art in itself is so secondary that I often look past it when other factors are involved. So if an an icon is: a computer printout, or a bulletin from a church, or a piece of paper mounted on wood and sold at a monastery bookstore, or a $500 commissioned icon, I see none as being any more or less holy or effective, so it all amounts largely to the same to me. That isn't to say that I haven't compared icons before and chose the one I found more appealing; it's just that that seems somewhat down the list, and one of the later factors to take into consideration. And then there are plenty of icons of less known saints which you have limited choices for... you're happy if you find one.

The other thing I was trying to comment on in my last post was that everyone draws lines in the sand at different places, and you shouldn't really expect everyone else to suddenly refuse business to a certain place just because you've decided to. And personally I rarely find the 'lines in the sand' drawn by orthodoxinfo articles to match my own. If Matthew Heimbach prints an icon of St. Justin Popovich on his printer and hands it to me, and it's the same thing as you could buy from a reputable seller, I may dislike the origin, but I'm not going to say it's not a real icon, and so far as I know many Orthodox would say you're doing a naughty naughty thing by treating it with disdain, disrespectfully disposing of it, or whatever.

Fair enough, but I still personally stand by my own analogy and encourage people to see it from my perspective.

And plus, there are plenty of other stores which are from organizations from the in-communion Orthodox, or even secular stores who create icons for the Eastern Orthodox, which I feel it would better serve the purpose of the money spent in helping people out who earn less money and who are creating icons for a spiritually better purpose, rather than that sect.

As for Orthodox Info, from what I have read, there are some things I think can get too conservative at points.

That article which pretty much accuses anybody who has said that "the union of man and woman in marriage sexual relations, as the Book of Genesis states when the man and the woman become one in marriage is modeled after the Trinity's communion of Persons" as reading New Age material, being Occult sympathizers, and leading individuals to eternal spiritual damnation is a little too far-fetched. Although I think some of their criticisms are valid and informative with how the Church Fathers viewed such sexual relations as a consequence of the Fall, and how one could receive the impression of the idea that Communion with God is like physical sexual pleasure, but still - their (the "New Agers") conclusion is a conclusion I at one point came to agreeing with without the use of Occultist materials - and this was after I was taught about how the Orthodox teach about Sacraments compared to the extremely rigid Roman Catholic perspective (which led me to think about what other sacraments outside the 7 there could be -
what about the creation of a child within the context of marriage? Could that be a sacrament? After all, it happens morally to receive that result, and we don't usually act in that manner except for that result - and is sexual immorality a form of sacrilege?) Although I think God showed me this article coincidentally after I came to a thoughtful conclusion like that, though.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/frluke_newage.aspx

I would say the union of the family and the union of society, and the Unity of the Church, which are one as institutions, are better images of the Trinity than sexual union.

I do like some of their articles though, like the Monastery Icons article (which for the most part is accurate - I wonder how Father knows for a fact that they curse the icons before they ship them out, though), and their quote of Saint John of Damascus on Islam.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 08:23:52 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #108 on: August 22, 2017, 08:25:48 PM »
Quote
what about the creation of a child within the context of marriage? Could that be a sacrament? After all, it happens morally to receive that result, and we don't usually act in that manner except for that result - and is sexual immorality a form of sacrilege?

And keep in mind this comes from my background knowledge from Roman catechesis of how sex within marriage is a gift from God to be used sacredly.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 08:28:47 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
-Saint John of Kronstadt

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #109 on: August 22, 2017, 09:10:49 PM »
Sacraments, or mysteria, are certain symbols -- literally, that which is thrown together -- a sacred colliding of the heavenly and early worlds. Now many mundane things are surely such symbols , such as birth, conception, harvest -- when considered from or entered into in a particular spirit. But to call them sacraments or mysteria would be a step too far. The mysteria must be specific, corporate, and closely involve the Church. Yet I agree with those Fathers and hierarchs who have implied limiting their number to five or seven is inaccurate or unhelpfully legalistic. So I think you and I are close to agreement.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #110 on: August 22, 2017, 10:03:54 PM »
I figured they, being a weird sect, were just reselling icons made by someone else.  But yes, I agree with 5he consensus that these icons are ugly, and soulless, and if some demonic ritual is being performed on them, priests ought to exorcise them.  I think I have seen a few of these in small Orthodox parishes.   Very unfortunate.

Note my point about charity to the heretic did not extend to patronizing their enterprise if that enterprise is destructive, e.g. a drug dealer.  But rather, if someone who happened to be a crank made beautiful sketches of waterfalls or other gifts, that were unrelated to his religious error, these I would buy.
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Online LivenotoneviL

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #111 on: August 22, 2017, 10:34:56 PM »
I figured they, being a weird sect, were just reselling icons made by someone else.  But yes, I agree with 5he consensus that these icons are ugly, and soulless, and if some demonic ritual is being performed on them, priests ought to exorcise them.  I think I have seen a few of these in small Orthodox parishes.   Very unfortunate.

Note my point about charity to the heretic did not extend to patronizing their enterprise if that enterprise is destructive, e.g. a drug dealer.  But rather, if someone who happened to be a crank made beautiful sketches of waterfalls or other gifts, that were unrelated to his religious error, these I would buy.

How is Hindu spirituality, idolatry, and blasphemy not destructive to something more important than our physical bodies - our eternal soul?
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #112 on: August 22, 2017, 10:40:05 PM »
Sacraments, or mysteria, are certain symbols -- literally, that which is thrown together -- a sacred colliding of the heavenly and early worlds. Now many mundane things are surely such symbols , such as birth, conception, harvest -- when considered from or entered into in a particular spirit. But to call them sacraments or mysteria would be a step too far. The mysteria must be specific, corporate, and closely involve the Church. Yet I agree with those Fathers and hierarchs who have implied limiting their number to five or seven is inaccurate or unhelpfully legalistic. So I think you and I are close to agreement.

Yeah, you are right.

I honestly kind of like the legalistic loophole the Roman Catholic Church has created due to the Council of Trent, said council which anathematizes anybody who says there are more than 7 Sacraments.

That being they call other sacraments than those 7 "sacramentals," or like "mini-sacraments."

Also, that is one fundamental problem that I myself have with talking to people I find - in order to take up people's time and keep the conversation going, I will steer the conversation into a completely unrelated topic - so please stop me if I do, and tell me to make another forum. lol  :P
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 10:42:06 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
-Saint John of Kronstadt

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #113 on: August 22, 2017, 11:13:58 PM »
The Counter-Reformation is much like the two Vatican Councils, very un-Orthodox.
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #114 on: October 05, 2017, 10:32:08 AM »
The idea of icons being exorcised sounds weird to me, like a cross being exorcised (which I mentioned on the forum a long time ago and was - I believe much rightly - dismissed).
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #115 on: October 05, 2017, 10:41:47 AM »
Sacraments, or mysteria, are certain symbols -- literally, that which is thrown together -- a sacred colliding of the heavenly and early worlds. Now many mundane things are surely such symbols , such as birth, conception, harvest -- when considered from or entered into in a particular spirit. But to call them sacraments or mysteria would be a step too far. The mysteria must be specific, corporate, and closely involve the Church. Yet I agree with those Fathers and hierarchs who have implied limiting their number to five or seven is inaccurate or unhelpfully legalistic. So I think you and I are close to agreement.

I myself lean this way as well.  I don't understand why we deny the status of a sacrament to the Pannikhida, or to the Great Blessing of Water on Epiphany, etc.  I think the idea of there being precisely seven sacraments was a Roman concept which like so much else was inadvertantly imported into the East.  The Assyrians also count seven sacraments, but their sacraments differ from ours, and include Malka, for instance, the baking of the Eucharistic bread using a starter left over from the previous liturgy; they maintain a succession of bread as it were going back to the Last Supper, via St. Thomas.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #116 on: October 05, 2017, 10:46:35 AM »
I figured they, being a weird sect, were just reselling icons made by someone else.  But yes, I agree with 5he consensus that these icons are ugly, and soulless, and if some demonic ritual is being performed on them, priests ought to exorcise them.  I think I have seen a few of these in small Orthodox parishes.   Very unfortunate.

Note my point about charity to the heretic did not extend to patronizing their enterprise if that enterprise is destructive, e.g. a drug dealer.  But rather, if someone who happened to be a crank made beautiful sketches of waterfalls or other gifts, that were unrelated to his religious error, these I would buy.

How is Hindu spirituality, idolatry, and blasphemy not destructive to something more important than our physical bodies - our eternal soul?

Allow me to quote what else I wrote in that same post:

Quote
Now, here is something else to consider: if a heretic, even an heresiarch, was at risk of starving or perishing from exposure, I would not hesitate to come to their assistance were it within my power to do so.  Indeed, by ministering to these people, we can show them the true light of Christ and help them to return to the fold.  The thing I would not do, ever, is say to a heresiarch vagante bishop "I'll feed you only if you renounce your heresies and return to the True Church."  God's love is unconditional, and so should our love also be unconditional.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #117 on: October 05, 2017, 11:08:23 AM »
There are actually pretenders out there, not on the grand scale I just outlined, but you will find fake scholars wih degrees from bogus universities, fake monastics, unauathorized hermits, and the odd fake priest.  I know of a priest who has a church in California, near the CalNeVa border, who celebrates the Tridentine rite, but who does not admit on his website the connection to any bishop; he is clearly of the SSPX or SSPV mentality but does not appear to be affiliated with any traditional Catholic or sedevacantist bishops.

An odd corollary with vagantes is how many of them claim to belong to bogus chivalric military or royal orders. You'll see some guy claiming to be an archbishop or patriarch, but also the governor of Malta as appointed by the Order of Royal Roses of the Serbain-Kenyan House in Exile.
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #118 on: October 05, 2017, 01:19:29 PM »
Quote
, for instance, the baking of the Eucharistic bread using a starter left over from the previous liturgy; they maintain a succession of bread as it were going back to the Last Supper, via St. Thomas.


really? that's very cool.

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #119 on: October 05, 2017, 02:18:42 PM »
Quote
, for instance, the baking of the Eucharistic bread using a starter left over from the previous liturgy; they maintain a succession of bread as it were going back to the Last Supper, via St. Thomas.
really? that's very cool.
There was a sect in Egypt that did the same during the Chalcedonian controversy, but for much different reasons.
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