Author Topic: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?  (Read 3314 times)

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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #45 on: August 21, 2017, 12:00:11 PM »
Oh don't apologize. You are hardly the first to find my posts angering. I think I speak for many when I say I enjoy having you here, value your posts, and find your spiritual journey engrossing.

That statement was me reacting in frustration....so....yeah. And I should apologize for both that post and my self-pitiful post in response, as it was more emotionally selfish and frustrating as a motivation than attempting to seek truth.

Now that I am calmed down,
I will, however, ask a fundamental question:

Despite the effeminating artwork and liturgical hymns of the Western church, you also seem to imply that Russian Orthodox Chants, which have been heavily Westernized, are not all justified and are illicit, if that is what you are suggesting.

To point to you to some examples,

Tchaikovsky's interpretation of the Cherubic Hymn:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qSUB2Z8NVs

or This example of "Let my prayer arise":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nG5gEzymh5c

or This example of Svirdov's version of the Trisagion Prayers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQvtD2zTyVs

I should also point out Russian icons which have taken influence from the West as well, including the famous Saint Seraphim of Sarov icon:


Or this icon of Saint John Maximovitch:


Or the Theotokos, Softener of Hearts icon:


If these hymns and artwork are purely illicit, than why hasn't the Russian Orthodox Church been excommunicated for liturgical blasphemy?

This question is semi-strawman, admittedly, but is it really morally wrong and disgusting that iconography and hymns which, to a limited degree, have drawn influence from Western artwork, to be used?

And is it possible that the inverse argument is true as well: That the Coptic icons or Ethiopian icons are overtly simplistic to the point that they are blasphemous to use, as they don't represent Heaven in how the Divine Liturgy is truly supposed to be symbolic of?





I will admit that a significant portion of Western artwork is indeed blasphemous - I wonder who in their mind could look at me with a straight face and say that Michaelangelo's the Last Judgment, in which Christ is replaced with the Pagan god Apollo, there is nothing but nudity and the worship of corpses everywhere, with even the Virgin Mary looking in that general direction, and with a blatant and intentional disrespect towards the clergy by putting critics of the art in Hell - How can anyone say that such a work is not blasphemous, even if it is pretty and historical?

And then there are portrayals of Roman Catholic devotions, which of course, can be interpreted as blasphemous as well - the worship of the Physical Heart of Jesus, etc., or, as the Orthodox have historically held, statues...

A lot of works from the Renaissance period are indeed blasphemous - but from my own experience, and having gone to several Roman Catholic Churches, not most of it if not not all of it is inherently evil.

I at one point attended Holy Name Roman Catholic Church in Columbus, Ohio, when I was down there once - and the Orthodox iconography brought me memories of it. It is a Novus Ordo church, but I wonder, if your standards apply, would this Roman Catholic artwork on the apse be improper to use in veneration?:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Holy_Name_Church_%28Columbus%2C_Ohio%29_-_interior%2C_apse_mural.jpg

Not that you should be worshiping in a Roman Catholic Church, but from an ecumenical standpoint, how limited and inflexible should we be to heterodox artwork?

P.S... not to mention the famous icon of Jesus Christ Pantocrator and Saint Peter, which are more realistic and three dimensional, and are older than most of the Traditional Byzantine iconography, with both being dated around the 5th or 6th Century in Saint Catherine's Monastery:


« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 12:11:16 PM by LivenotoneviL »

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #46 on: August 21, 2017, 12:10:56 PM »
By what criteria are we judging a given icon to be "illicit" (not a term one usually comes across in Orthodoxy, by the way)?

In terms of actual canons there is very little governing icons in particular. There is no rule against "realism", for one.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 12:11:42 PM by Iconodule »
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #47 on: August 21, 2017, 12:12:21 PM »
By what criteria are we judging a given icon to be "illicit" (not a term one usually comes across in Orthodoxy, by the way)?

In terms of actual canons there is very little governing icons in particular. There is no rule against "realism", for one.

"I'm sorry, but what "beautiful art" is he preserving in his present role? And objecting to Vatican II for art's sake, as I'm taking it you do, strikes me as decadent, but I won't dwell on the topic."
"I don't think the Seventh Ecumenical Council was a statement regarding aesthetics, in the modern sense of the word. I think "art" in the modern sense is a work of the imagination that fevers the passions. Even the product of Palestrina would have been considered -- quite rightly, in my opinion -- enervating and effeminating by the sober ancients. Iconography is art only in the sense of ars, tekhne. It is the product of a sober formula calculated over holy generations effectually to attach the soul to heaven. I'm probably misreading your post again, as you accuse, but those are some of my thoughts."

I'm asking if he (Porter) could be more clarifying at where we draw the line at artwork which is influenced by Heterodox culture and history, and at one point does art become "effeminating."
If he is explicitly talking about the extreme and blasphemous Renaissance artwork, such as "The Last Judgement" by Michaelangelo, and other artwork at that same level with such a fixation of corpses, then I would argue that he misrepresents a significant portion of Roman Catholic iconography - especially contemporary Roman Catholic iconography.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 12:16:51 PM by LivenotoneviL »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #48 on: August 21, 2017, 12:12:45 PM »
Good gosh I don't remember saying anything about blasphemy. The Russian church has suffered its abuses; but it has also, in my opinion, done much to moderate them. I was in no way asserting that a good tone or icon is always old. Now look at the painting of our Lady here and see if it does not affect you with a rush of mortal sentiment much as would a Kewpie doll or at least a heroine in an old movie. That part of man the orientals called the bowels is stirred, rather than reminded to be passionless as heaven. I have no doubt someone will soon post to put me in my place. Thank you for the dialog.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #49 on: August 21, 2017, 12:14:40 PM »
By what criteria are we judging a given icon to be "illicit" (not a term one usually comes across in Orthodoxy, by the way)?

In terms of actual canons there is very little governing icons in particular. There is no rule against "realism", for one.

The rich irony, that you contemn the legal term "illicit" on the one hand and raise the canons to an exclusive height on the other.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #50 on: August 21, 2017, 12:18:33 PM »
By what criteria are we judging a given icon to be "illicit" (not a term one usually comes across in Orthodoxy, by the way)?

In terms of actual canons there is very little governing icons in particular. There is no rule against "realism", for one.

The rich irony, that you contemn the legal term "illicit" on the one hand and raise the canons to an exclusive height on the other.

My point was that if we want to get legal about icons, the laws (canons) don't give us much to go on. These arguments usually fall back on someone's personal reasoning, however sound or not (e.g. "this image arouses the passions! Icons mustn't do that") rather than any legal basis. Also, I didn't "contemn" anything, just pointed out that, as a matter of fact, we don't talk very much in terms of licit/illicit- except Old Calendarists perhaps.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 12:19:09 PM by Iconodule »
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #51 on: August 21, 2017, 12:19:41 PM »
By what criteria are we judging a given icon to be "illicit" (not a term one usually comes across in Orthodoxy, by the way)?

In terms of actual canons there is very little governing icons in particular. There is no rule against "realism", for one.

"I'm sorry, but what "beautiful art" is he preserving in his present role? And objecting to Vatican II for art's sake, as I'm taking it you do, strikes me as decadent, but I won't dwell on the topic."
"I don't think the Seventh Ecumenical Council was a statement regarding aesthetics, in the modern sense of the word. I think "art" in the modern sense is a work of the imagination that fevers the passions. Even the product of Palestrina would have been considered -- quite rightly, in my opinion -- enervating and effeminating by the sober ancients. Iconography is art only in the sense of ars, tekhne. It is the product of a sober formula calculated over holy generations effectually to attach the soul to heaven. I'm probably misreading your post again, as you accuse, but those are some of my thoughts."

I'm asking if he (Porter) could be more clarifying at where we draw the line at artwork which is influenced by Heterodox culture and history, and at one point does art become "effeminating."
If he is explicitly talking about the extreme and blasphemous Renaissance artwork, such as "The Last Judgement" by Michaelangelo, and other artwork at that same level with such a fixation of corpses, then I would argue that he misrepresents a significant portion of Roman Catholic iconography - especially contemporary Roman Catholic iconography.

For example, prayer cards are a MAJOR Roman Catholic cultural trend for the past few decades, in which images, especially for the deceased, our given out on cards with a prayer on them.

A couple of them that come to mind (which my parents have posted on their home mirror:
http://st-takla.org/Pix/Jesus-Christ-our-Lord-n-Savior/13-Bostan-Gasimany/www-St-Takla-org___Jesus-Praying-in-Gethsemane-Garden-05.jpg

https://static.trinityroad.com/prod/500/2015495.jpg

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #52 on: August 21, 2017, 12:31:55 PM »
Good gosh I don't remember saying anything about blasphemy. The Russian church has suffered its abuses; but it has also, in my opinion, done much to moderate them. I was in no way asserting that a good tone or icon is always old. Now look at the painting of our Lady here and see if it does not affect you with a rush of mortal sentiment much as would a Kewpie doll or at least a heroine in an old movie. That part of man the orientals called the bowels is stirred, rather than reminded to be passionless as heaven. I have no doubt someone will soon post to put me in my place. Thank you for the dialog.

I can understand your perspective, and maybe "illicit" or "blasphemy" are too strong of words.

However, considering the culture we live in, where it seems that every check out aisle in a grocery store and every single billboard has a photograph of an almost completely naked, unrealistically pretty - looking, and lust inducing woman, with most young women wearing extremely short shorts, leggings, I'm more focused on resisting those sinful and dignity-offending images. A culture in which most women become offended at the mere idea of covering your head in Liturgy.

And I don't know - once again, maybe my Roman prejudices - if such Russian icons really entice the passions in such a way you describe and make me want to be attached to the earth - at least, in comparison to some certain Roman artwork of the Virgin Mary which comes to mind (I really don't even want to post it), and the previously held images. In fact, that icon makes me want to see Our Lady in Heaven in a similar way to the Byzantine iconography of Our Lady.

So, let me revise the question - is it offensive to God, at least to a minute degree, to venerate such images, and at what point should it be strictly forbidden?

And I would not dare to suggest that I could be as holy as this Orthodox elder, who literally uses a Roman icon of Our Lady of the Perpetual Help in his Corner (at 7:00):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9go4yS5Pk0M

Not that I'm saying we shouldn't be careless about art, but...
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 12:35:28 PM by LivenotoneviL »

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #53 on: August 21, 2017, 12:39:02 PM »
Good gosh I don't remember saying anything about blasphemy. The Russian church has suffered its abuses; but it has also, in my opinion, done much to moderate them. I was in no way asserting that a good tone or icon is always old. Now look at the painting of our Lady here and see if it does not affect you with a rush of mortal sentiment much as would a Kewpie doll or at least a heroine in an old movie. That part of man the orientals called the bowels is stirred, rather than reminded to be passionless as heaven. I have no doubt someone will soon post to put me in my place. Thank you for the dialog.

I can understand your perspective, and maybe "illicit" or "blasphemy" are too strong of words.

However, considering the culture we live in, where it seems that every check out aisle in a grocery store and every single billboard has a photograph of an almost completely naked, unrealistically pretty - looking, and lust inducing woman, with most young women wearing extremely short shorts, leggings, I'm more focused on resisting those sinful and dignity-offending images. A culture in which most women become offended at the mere idea of covering your head in Liturgy.

And I don't know - once again, maybe my Roman prejudices - if such Russian icons really entice the passions in such a way you describe and make me want to be attached to the earth - at least, in comparison to some certain Roman artwork of the Virgin Mary which comes to mind (I really don't even want to post it), and the previously held images. In fact, that icon makes me want to see Our Lady in Heaven in a similar way to the Byzantine iconography of Our Lady.

So, let me revise the question - is it offensive to God, at least to a minute degree, to venerate such images, and at what point should it be strictly forbidden?

And I would not dare to suggest that I could be as holy as this Orthodox elder, who literally uses a Roman icon of Our Lady of the Perpetual Help in his Corner (at 7:00):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9go4yS5Pk0M

Not that I'm saying we shouldn't be careless about art, but...

Oh! And not to mention Our Lady of Jerusalem, which was allegedly given by the Virgin Mary herself, and which Elder Paisios allegedly said "The Virgin Mary looks a lot like the one on the icon of the Virgin Mary of Jerusalem. She is exactly the same. I have seen her many times and I don’t know of any other icon resembling her so much."
https://orthodoxwiki.org/Panagia_Ierosolymitissa
http://www.pigizois.net/agglika/paisios/11.htm (search "Jerusalem")
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 12:40:23 PM by LivenotoneviL »

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #54 on: August 21, 2017, 01:06:27 PM »
I'm not sure why the Russian church is being singled out here. Look at almost any Greek church decorated between the 18th and early 20th centuries and you will find the same Latin influence in the icons.

I don't think the attitude that any Western influence is inherently a contamination holds up to scrutiny (and I don't think that's what Porter means). The Byzantine tradition of iconography, beautiful and holy, should nevertheless not be held up as an immoveable standard. I would also disagree that the iconographic tradition is just a repetition and refinement of formulae, divorced from non-religious art. True, it is quite apart from the individualism and innovation-for-its-own sake that characterize modern art, but then again so are all worthwhile artistic traditions. Insofar as the world and all its manifold beauties- including those mediated by human culture- belong to God, there is nothing to fear in our iconographers taking influence from outer streams if they are directed to pious ends, and the borrowing is not haphazard or whimsical.

In all the great icons of the Church one notices a stirring vital current, stemming both from the tradition they emerge from and the inspiration of the individual artists. These are not simply the products of craftsmen adhering to formulae. Change and development, organic and perhaps only semi-conscious, are evident.

Regarding the post-Renaissance Catholic art, it's hard for me to generalize. I don't care for Michelangelo as a painter but I get a sense of real sanctity from Botticelli's madonnas. A lot of baroque stuff likewise strikes me as decadent and vapid but there are some strong exceptions. Also, art is not subjective but it is multifaceted and it is possible for an image that is syrupy and sentimental to one to inspired deep reverence in someone with a different disposition.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #55 on: August 21, 2017, 01:25:17 PM »
By what criteria are we judging a given icon to be "illicit" (not a term one usually comes across in Orthodoxy, by the way)?

In terms of actual canons there is very little governing icons in particular. There is no rule against "realism", for one.

The rich irony, that you contemn the legal term "illicit" on the one hand and raise the canons to an exclusive height on the other.

My point was that if we want to get legal about icons, the laws (canons) don't give us much to go on. These arguments usually fall back on someone's personal reasoning, however sound or not (e.g. "this image arouses the passions! Icons mustn't do that") rather than any legal basis. Also, I didn't "contemn" anything, just pointed out that, as a matter of fact, we don't talk very much in terms of licit/illicit- except Old Calendarists perhaps.

The bulk of tradition is neither canons nor "personal reasoning." Indeed, that's definitional. If you cannot grasp this much, you cannot grasp Orthodoxy.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #56 on: August 21, 2017, 01:41:48 PM »
By what criteria are we judging a given icon to be "illicit" (not a term one usually comes across in Orthodoxy, by the way)?

In terms of actual canons there is very little governing icons in particular. There is no rule against "realism", for one.

The rich irony, that you contemn the legal term "illicit" on the one hand and raise the canons to an exclusive height on the other.

My point was that if we want to get legal about icons, the laws (canons) don't give us much to go on. These arguments usually fall back on someone's personal reasoning, however sound or not (e.g. "this image arouses the passions! Icons mustn't do that") rather than any legal basis. Also, I didn't "contemn" anything, just pointed out that, as a matter of fact, we don't talk very much in terms of licit/illicit- except Old Calendarists perhaps.

The bulk of tradition is neither canons nor "personal reasoning."

And the bulk of tradition includes countless icons, some of them miracle-working, that certain latter-day reformers try to define away as heterodox or deficient in some way.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #57 on: August 21, 2017, 01:45:08 PM »
What reformers are denouncing "the bulk" of Orthodox icons? This sounds a dyspeptic post even from you. Please do educate us.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #58 on: August 21, 2017, 01:47:56 PM »
What reformers are denouncing "the bulk" of Orthodox icons?

I didn't say that. Do you know what the word "include" means? As opposed, to say, "comprise"? It would be good to clarify these terms before further going down the rabbit-hole of your paranoia.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #59 on: August 21, 2017, 02:19:59 PM »
I'm not sure why the Russian church is being singled out here. Look at almost any Greek church decorated between the 18th and early 20th centuries and you will find the same Latin influence in the icons.

For me, the Russian Church stands out as having significant Western influence for a couple of reasons:

1. The influence of Polish and German artwork which came into Russia, and which would come to a clash with the Old Ritualist controversy with Patriarch Nikon (Who literally ordered a house to house search of Westernized icons and ordered that the eyes of these "counterfeit" icons to be gouged out and carried through the town in derision)
2. The fact that Russia stands out, from Peter the Great onward up until the October Revolution, as having its culture and society fundamentally transformed to parallel Western ideas - even to the point that speaking in French, similarly to Western Europe, was common and used to sound "aristocratic" - and such influences, as seen by - for example - the works of Tchaikovsky, have clearly affected the Russian Church too.

The image that comes to mind is that famous political cartoon which those who have at least briefly looked at Russian imperial history have seen before:




But of course, your argument is valid. I point to Saint George's Antiochan Church in Cleveland.

https://orthodoxcleveland.us/images/Cleveland%20Churches%20-%20Downtown/DSC02682w.jpg

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #60 on: August 21, 2017, 02:27:45 PM »
If you were to point to faithful Orthodox places of worship in Greece or Asia Minor, you'd just be told they were the sterile fruits of "dhimmitude." The problem with some of the educated posters on the forum is they were literally trained in cynicism and condemnation, the "analysis" of modern methodology, as well as in an ethics that there is nothing better or worse or purposefully distinguishable. I don't know that there's much use arguing, as where the vision is obscured, the display of examples or tendencies will never be seen and assented to.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #61 on: August 21, 2017, 02:38:32 PM »
If you were to point to faithful Orthodox places of worship in Greece or Asia Minor, you'd just be told they were the sterile fruits of "dhimmitude."

So you're saying that a little Italian-style art renders a place of worship apostate. That's a scary world you live in.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #62 on: August 21, 2017, 02:39:11 PM »
The problem with some of the educated posters on the forum is they were literally trained in cynicism and condemnation, the "analysis" of modern methodology, as well as in an ethics that there is nothing better or worse or purposefully distinguishable. I don't know that there's much use arguing, as where the vision is obscured, the display of examples or tendencies will never be seen and assented to.

I don't know if that is a fair or valid assumption to make, as I hopefully have demonstrated, by my condemnation of extreme realism and Michaelangelo, and Iconodule's condemnation of a significant portion of Baroque artwork, but at least we both condemn objective relativism  ;)
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 02:40:13 PM by LivenotoneviL »

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #63 on: August 21, 2017, 03:13:42 PM »
I'm not sure why the Russian church is being singled out here. Look at almost any Greek church decorated between the 18th and early 20th centuries and you will find the same Latin influence in the icons.

For me, the Russian Church stands out as having significant Western influence for a couple of reasons:

1. The influence of Polish and German artwork which came into Russia, and which would come to a clash with the Old Ritualist controversy with Patriarch Nikon (Who literally ordered a house to house search of Westernized icons and ordered that the eyes of these "counterfeit" icons to be gouged out and carried through the town in derision)
2. The fact that Russia stands out, from Peter the Great onward up until the October Revolution, as having its culture and society fundamentally transformed to parallel Western ideas - even to the point that speaking in French, similarly to Western Europe, was common and used to sound "aristocratic" - and such influences, as seen by - for example - the works of Tchaikovsky, have clearly affected the Russian Church too.

The image that comes to mind is that famous political cartoon which those who have at least briefly looked at Russian imperial history have seen before:




But of course, your argument is valid. I point to Saint George's Antiochan Church in Cleveland.

https://orthodoxcleveland.us/images/Cleveland%20Churches%20-%20Downtown/DSC02682w.jpg

It's a little tricky. One of the biggest loci of Latin influence in Russia was Saint Peter Mogila's Kiev academy, which was founded under Constantinople's Kiev metropolitanate. And Mogila's catechism was approved as the official catechism by the EP for all of Orthodoxy. The Nikonian reforms were carried out with a zeal for conforming Russia not to the West but to current practice in the Greek church, and were done with the support of Constantinople (maybe not the eye-gouging part). One of the major arguments the Old Believers made (not that I take it seriously) was that when the Latins conquered Constantinople in the Fourth Crusade, the Greek church was steadily infused with Latin practices. Going further afield, the Church of Antioch came to be highly reliant on Jesuits for instructing its faithful, which of course contributed to the growing rapprochement between Antioch and Rome culminating in the schism between Catholic Melkites and Greek Orthodox.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #64 on: August 21, 2017, 03:25:16 PM »
If you were to point to faithful Orthodox places of worship in Greece or Asia Minor, you'd just be told they were the sterile fruits of "dhimmitude."

So you're saying that a little Italian-style art renders a place of worship apostate. That's a scary world you live in.

So you're saying you're unaware of any but the single most technical usage of a word.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #65 on: August 21, 2017, 03:30:50 PM »
I'm not sure why the Russian church is being singled out here. Look at almost any Greek church decorated between the 18th and early 20th centuries and you will find the same Latin influence in the icons.

For me, the Russian Church stands out as having significant Western influence for a couple of reasons:

1. The influence of Polish and German artwork which came into Russia, and which would come to a clash with the Old Ritualist controversy with Patriarch Nikon (Who literally ordered a house to house search of Westernized icons and ordered that the eyes of these "counterfeit" icons to be gouged out and carried through the town in derision)
2. The fact that Russia stands out, from Peter the Great onward up until the October Revolution, as having its culture and society fundamentally transformed to parallel Western ideas - even to the point that speaking in French, similarly to Western Europe, was common and used to sound "aristocratic" - and such influences, as seen by - for example - the works of Tchaikovsky, have clearly affected the Russian Church too.

The image that comes to mind is that famous political cartoon which those who have at least briefly looked at Russian imperial history have seen before:




But of course, your argument is valid. I point to Saint George's Antiochan Church in Cleveland.

https://orthodoxcleveland.us/images/Cleveland%20Churches%20-%20Downtown/DSC02682w.jpg

It's a little tricky. One of the biggest loci of Latin influence in Russia was Saint Peter Mogila's Kiev academy, which was founded under Constantinople's Kiev metropolitanate. And Mogila's catechism was approved as the official catechism by the EP for all of Orthodoxy. The Nikonian reforms were carried out with a zeal for conforming Russia not to the West but to current practice in the Greek church, and were done with the support of Constantinople (maybe not the eye-gouging part). One of the major arguments the Old Believers made (not that I take it seriously) was that when the Latins conquered Constantinople in the Fourth Crusade, the Greek church was steadily infused with Latin practices. Going further afield, the Church of Antioch came to be highly reliant on Jesuits for instructing its faithful, which of course contributed to the growing rapprochement between Antioch and Rome culminating in the schism between Catholic Melkites and Greek Orthodox.

Are you saying all this because you really think Greek Orthodoxy is Jesuit? Stop and think before you get your knowledge glitter all over the thread.

But the real question is how you're posts are solving the problem? You can dissect and cavil and denigrate in the most dazzling way -- and if course this kind of thing pleases your department head -- but if you're unable to enter with creative sympathy and genuine integrity into the ancient project of solving the problem, then the posts are gaudy monsters, not fruit.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #66 on: August 21, 2017, 03:33:59 PM »
If you were to point to faithful Orthodox places of worship in Greece or Asia Minor, you'd just be told they were the sterile fruits of "dhimmitude."

So you're saying that a little Italian-style art renders a place of worship apostate. That's a scary world you live in.

So you're saying you're unaware of any but the single most technical usage of a word.

It's pretty annoying, isn't it, when someone jumps onto a handful of words you say and twists them far beyond anything that you meant. Let that be a lesson to you.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #67 on: August 21, 2017, 03:35:27 PM »
If you were to point to faithful Orthodox places of worship in Greece or Asia Minor, you'd just be told they were the sterile fruits of "dhimmitude."

So you're saying that a little Italian-style art renders a place of worship apostate. That's a scary world you live in.

So you're saying you're unaware of any but the single most technical usage of a word.

It's pretty annoying, isn't it, when someone jumps onto a handful of words you say and twists them far beyond anything that you meant. Let that be a lesson to you.

You're not annoying me.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #68 on: August 21, 2017, 03:35:55 PM »
I'm not sure why the Russian church is being singled out here. Look at almost any Greek church decorated between the 18th and early 20th centuries and you will find the same Latin influence in the icons.

For me, the Russian Church stands out as having significant Western influence for a couple of reasons:

1. The influence of Polish and German artwork which came into Russia, and which would come to a clash with the Old Ritualist controversy with Patriarch Nikon (Who literally ordered a house to house search of Westernized icons and ordered that the eyes of these "counterfeit" icons to be gouged out and carried through the town in derision)
2. The fact that Russia stands out, from Peter the Great onward up until the October Revolution, as having its culture and society fundamentally transformed to parallel Western ideas - even to the point that speaking in French, similarly to Western Europe, was common and used to sound "aristocratic" - and such influences, as seen by - for example - the works of Tchaikovsky, have clearly affected the Russian Church too.

The image that comes to mind is that famous political cartoon which those who have at least briefly looked at Russian imperial history have seen before:




But of course, your argument is valid. I point to Saint George's Antiochan Church in Cleveland.

https://orthodoxcleveland.us/images/Cleveland%20Churches%20-%20Downtown/DSC02682w.jpg

It's a little tricky. One of the biggest loci of Latin influence in Russia was Saint Peter Mogila's Kiev academy, which was founded under Constantinople's Kiev metropolitanate. And Mogila's catechism was approved as the official catechism by the EP for all of Orthodoxy. The Nikonian reforms were carried out with a zeal for conforming Russia not to the West but to current practice in the Greek church, and were done with the support of Constantinople (maybe not the eye-gouging part). One of the major arguments the Old Believers made (not that I take it seriously) was that when the Latins conquered Constantinople in the Fourth Crusade, the Greek church was steadily infused with Latin practices. Going further afield, the Church of Antioch came to be highly reliant on Jesuits for instructing its faithful, which of course contributed to the growing rapprochement between Antioch and Rome culminating in the schism between Catholic Melkites and Greek Orthodox.

I should stress that I don't believe that the Old Believers are justified - that it is better to break Communion then to make the Sign of the Cross in a legitimate way like the rest of the world. However, I don't think that the idea of literally stealing people's private property, and destroying images of the saints and holding them up in derision in public, simply because they were painted or printed in a different art style, is a holy practice to follow.

Both sides were wrong, but I don't believe schism was justified - after all, Nikon's reforms, weren't heretical in the context of the rest of the Orthodox Churches, but his actions were elitist, condescending, and prideful, and the Synod that deposed him seems justified.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #69 on: August 21, 2017, 03:45:55 PM »
I'm not sure why the Russian church is being singled out here. Look at almost any Greek church decorated between the 18th and early 20th centuries and you will find the same Latin influence in the icons.

For me, the Russian Church stands out as having significant Western influence for a couple of reasons:

1. The influence of Polish and German artwork which came into Russia, and which would come to a clash with the Old Ritualist controversy with Patriarch Nikon (Who literally ordered a house to house search of Westernized icons and ordered that the eyes of these "counterfeit" icons to be gouged out and carried through the town in derision)
2. The fact that Russia stands out, from Peter the Great onward up until the October Revolution, as having its culture and society fundamentally transformed to parallel Western ideas - even to the point that speaking in French, similarly to Western Europe, was common and used to sound "aristocratic" - and such influences, as seen by - for example - the works of Tchaikovsky, have clearly affected the Russian Church too.

The image that comes to mind is that famous political cartoon which those who have at least briefly looked at Russian imperial history have seen before:




But of course, your argument is valid. I point to Saint George's Antiochan Church in Cleveland.

https://orthodoxcleveland.us/images/Cleveland%20Churches%20-%20Downtown/DSC02682w.jpg

It's a little tricky. One of the biggest loci of Latin influence in Russia was Saint Peter Mogila's Kiev academy, which was founded under Constantinople's Kiev metropolitanate. And Mogila's catechism was approved as the official catechism by the EP for all of Orthodoxy. The Nikonian reforms were carried out with a zeal for conforming Russia not to the West but to current practice in the Greek church, and were done with the support of Constantinople (maybe not the eye-gouging part). One of the major arguments the Old Believers made (not that I take it seriously) was that when the Latins conquered Constantinople in the Fourth Crusade, the Greek church was steadily infused with Latin practices. Going further afield, the Church of Antioch came to be highly reliant on Jesuits for instructing its faithful, which of course contributed to the growing rapprochement between Antioch and Rome culminating in the schism between Catholic Melkites and Greek Orthodox.

Are you saying all this because you really think Greek Orthodoxy is Jesuit?

No. Not even close. It might help you if you dialed down the Rage-O-Vision when reading posts on OC.net and you might find that posts that seemed antagonistic towards you are actually quite harmless. My point has nothing to do with criticizing the Greek church or anyone else.

You and LivenottoeviL have been talking about the Russian church and its Latin influence as something isolated. My point is that Latin influence was a church-wide phenomenon at this time due to the extremely difficult situations the ancient patriarchates all found themselves in. I do not fault the Church of Antioch for allowing Jesuit teachers in their midst- they were a poor and oppressed church and needed help. What is sometimes called the "Latin captivity" was a peculiar phase the church went through, in some ways tragic, in others inspiring. It produced mixed fruit. I note this without a whiff of condemnation of any of the pastors who took this option in a world of bad choices.

Quote
But the real question is how you're posts are solving the problem? You can dissect and cavil and denigrate in the most dazzling way

I have done none of those things. Perhaps you should look inside yourself for the source of all the darkness you see everywhere.

Quote
but if you're unable to enter with creative sympathy and genuine integrity into the ancient project of solving the problem, then the posts are gaudy monsters, not fruit.

What "problem" are you talking about? If you have some substantive objection to any of the facts I've mentioned feel free to air it. Your deliberately malicious reading of everyone's posts says a lot about the dark places you're in. If this is your "intuition" at work then it's time to face the fact that it's broken.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #70 on: August 21, 2017, 03:48:04 PM »
If you were to point to faithful Orthodox places of worship in Greece or Asia Minor, you'd just be told they were the sterile fruits of "dhimmitude."

So you're saying that a little Italian-style art renders a place of worship apostate. That's a scary world you live in.

So you're saying you're unaware of any but the single most technical usage of a word.

It's pretty annoying, isn't it, when someone jumps onto a handful of words you say and twists them far beyond anything that you meant. Let that be a lesson to you.

You're not annoying me.

That's true. It's mostly the shadowy spirits your conjure up in your scrying mirror that get you riled up, you just seem to conflate them with people on internet forums. Pro-tip: If you want to get into fights with imaginary monsters you can do it without paying for an internet connection.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #71 on: August 21, 2017, 03:54:00 PM »
If you were to point to faithful Orthodox places of worship in Greece or Asia Minor, you'd just be told they were the sterile fruits of "dhimmitude."

So you're saying that a little Italian-style art renders a place of worship apostate. That's a scary world you live in.

So you're saying you're unaware of any but the single most technical usage of a word.

It's pretty annoying, isn't it, when someone jumps onto a handful of words you say and twists them far beyond anything that you meant. Let that be a lesson to you.

You're not annoying me.

That's true. It's mostly the shadowy spirits your conjure up in your scrying mirror that get you riled up, you just seem to conflate them with people on internet forums. Pro-tip: If you want to get into fights with imaginary monsters you can do it without paying for an internet connection.

Can we stop with the venomous ad-hominem attacks please?
Is it productive, moral, or Christ-like?
Both you and Porter.

Feel free to debate as passionately and bitterly as you want, but nothing progresses if you revert to such tactics.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 03:57:34 PM by LivenotoneviL »

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #72 on: August 21, 2017, 04:05:38 PM »
I'm not sure why the Russian church is being singled out here. Look at almost any Greek church decorated between the 18th and early 20th centuries and you will find the same Latin influence in the icons.

For me, the Russian Church stands out as having significant Western influence for a couple of reasons:

1. The influence of Polish and German artwork which came into Russia, and which would come to a clash with the Old Ritualist controversy with Patriarch Nikon (Who literally ordered a house to house search of Westernized icons and ordered that the eyes of these "counterfeit" icons to be gouged out and carried through the town in derision)
2. The fact that Russia stands out, from Peter the Great onward up until the October Revolution, as having its culture and society fundamentally transformed to parallel Western ideas - even to the point that speaking in French, similarly to Western Europe, was common and used to sound "aristocratic" - and such influences, as seen by - for example - the works of Tchaikovsky, have clearly affected the Russian Church too.

The image that comes to mind is that famous political cartoon which those who have at least briefly looked at Russian imperial history have seen before:




But of course, your argument is valid. I point to Saint George's Antiochan Church in Cleveland.

https://orthodoxcleveland.us/images/Cleveland%20Churches%20-%20Downtown/DSC02682w.jpg

It's a little tricky. One of the biggest loci of Latin influence in Russia was Saint Peter Mogila's Kiev academy, which was founded under Constantinople's Kiev metropolitanate. And Mogila's catechism was approved as the official catechism by the EP for all of Orthodoxy. The Nikonian reforms were carried out with a zeal for conforming Russia not to the West but to current practice in the Greek church, and were done with the support of Constantinople (maybe not the eye-gouging part). One of the major arguments the Old Believers made (not that I take it seriously) was that when the Latins conquered Constantinople in the Fourth Crusade, the Greek church was steadily infused with Latin practices. Going further afield, the Church of Antioch came to be highly reliant on Jesuits for instructing its faithful, which of course contributed to the growing rapprochement between Antioch and Rome culminating in the schism between Catholic Melkites and Greek Orthodox.

I should stress that I don't believe that the Old Believers are justified - that it is better to break Communion then to make the Sign of the Cross in a legitimate way like the rest of the world. However, I don't think that the idea of literally stealing people's private property, and destroying images of the saints and holding them up in derision in public, simply because they were painted or printed in a different art style, is a holy practice to follow.

Both sides were wrong, but I don't believe schism was justified - after all, Nikon's reforms, weren't heretical in the context of the rest of the Orthodox Churches, but his actions were elitist, condescending, and prideful, and the Synod that deposed him seems justified.

I think both the Old Believers and the Nikonians represented very ugly aspects of the Josephite movement that had prevailed in Russia in the previous century. The "Third Rome" ideology and the atmosphere of Russian exceptionalism were bound to produce some traumatic crisis.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #73 on: August 21, 2017, 04:20:02 PM »
If you were to point to faithful Orthodox places of worship in Greece or Asia Minor, you'd just be told they were the sterile fruits of "dhimmitude."

So you're saying that a little Italian-style art renders a place of worship apostate. That's a scary world you live in.

So you're saying you're unaware of any but the single most technical usage of a word.

It's pretty annoying, isn't it, when someone jumps onto a handful of words you say and twists them far beyond anything that you meant. Let that be a lesson to you.

You're not annoying me.

That's true. It's mostly the shadowy spirits your conjure up in your scrying mirror that get you riled up, you just seem to conflate them with people on internet forums. Pro-tip: If you want to get into fights with imaginary monsters you can do it without paying for an internet connection.

Try to concentrate on the thread. It is a problem when postmodernism teaches us to say "There is no answer" is the answer. I'm merely the voice hoping to illuminate the problem.

If you were to point to faithful Orthodox places of worship in Greece or Asia Minor, you'd just be told they were the sterile fruits of "dhimmitude."

So you're saying that a little Italian-style art renders a place of worship apostate. That's a scary world you live in.

So you're saying you're unaware of any but the single most technical usage of a word.

It's pretty annoying, isn't it, when someone jumps onto a handful of words you say and twists them far beyond anything that you meant. Let that be a lesson to you.

You're not annoying me.

That's true. It's mostly the shadowy spirits your conjure up in your scrying mirror that get you riled up, you just seem to conflate them with people on internet forums. Pro-tip: If you want to get into fights with imaginary monsters you can do it without paying for an internet connection.

Can we stop with the venomous ad-hominem attacks please?
Is it productive, moral, or Christ-like?
Both you and Porter.

Feel free to debate as passionately and bitterly as you want, but nothing progresses if you revert to such tactics.

Thank you for this reminder.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #74 on: August 21, 2017, 04:28:52 PM »
I've actually called and spoken with several vagantes.  All of them were cranks except one, who wasnt a bishop but a priest in a larger "vagante jurisdiction" somewhere between Anglicanism and Orthodoxy theologically.  He had been a monk in canonical Eastern and Western rite communities; I don't entirely understand the basis for his decision to work outside the canonical church, but his church, alhoufh miniscule, used to own property and run a soup kitchen, until they ran out of money, and still has legit parishioners.  I found him to be pious; he works for a bishop who is a vagante, from a canonical perspective, but nonetheless, this particular man was a decent man.

On the opposite end of the spectrum was a confused old man of the "Celtic Orthodox Church," who swears he attended Celtic Orthodox liturgies in his childhood in the Midwest.  Is this possible?  I don't know, but his theology is all wrong.

I like talking to vagantes, as they are interesting.

There are some psuedo-vagantes within otherwise canonical church bodies, at least, in the Roman Catholic church, I know of a pair of self proclaimed Melkite monks who live togeher, outside of a monastery, allegedly with the approval of their bishop, claim to attend church in full vesture, and one of whom constantly trolls another Internet forum, often in a pro-homosexual direction.  Sort of a pair of gay versions of Brother Nathanael, albeit much more pscynologically stable.

Assuming everything they say is true though, the Melkite Patriarch really needs to tighten its grip on things.  And if its not, they're psuedo-canonical vagantes.  It would be like if I bought a house, opened up a Syriac or Coptic Orthodox Church, celebrated or rather pretended to celebrate the liturgy (obviously if I made the mistake of letting a tonsured Psalti behind the altar, they would see the mistakes I was making regarding the ritual actions of the priests, which must be taught, and practiced, hence the Coptic tradition of the Forty Days training of priests in a monastery, et cetera), and claimed to be in full communion, while of course not being in full communion at all, no matter how many photographs of His Holiness Pope Tawadros II I placed in the trapeza.

There are actually pretenders out there, not on the grand scale I just outlined, but you will find fake scholars wih degrees from bogus universities, fake monastics, unauathorized hermits, and the odd fake priest.  I know of a priest who has a church in California, near the CalNeVa border, who celebrates the Tridentine rite, but who does not admit on his website the connection to any bishop; he is clearly of the SSPX or SSPV mentality but does not appear to be affiliated with any traditional Catholic or sedevacantist bishops.

In the Evangelical movement, and related regions of Protestantism,  the Invisble Church ecclesiology leads to a condition where one could open up a church on one's own, legitimately and without the approval of any authority other than one's own sense of divine instruction from the Holy Spirit.

~

I believe however the Church is visible, and we must all seek it, and it can be found in the canonical Eastern and Oriental patriarchates.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 04:30:07 PM by Alpha60 »
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

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This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #75 on: August 21, 2017, 05:05:38 PM »
I've actually called and spoken with several vagantes.  All of them were cranks except one, who wasnt a bishop but a priest in a larger "vagante jurisdiction" somewhere between Anglicanism and Orthodoxy theologically.  He had been a monk in canonical Eastern and Western rite communities; I don't entirely understand the basis for his decision to work outside the canonical church, but his church, alhoufh miniscule, used to own property and run a soup kitchen, until they ran out of money, and still has legit parishioners.  I found him to be pious; he works for a bishop who is a vagante, from a canonical perspective, but nonetheless, this particular man was a decent man.
Thank you for trying to steer us back on topic, lol.

There are actually pretenders out there, not on the grand scale I just outlined, but you will find fake scholars wih degrees from bogus universities, fake monastics, unauathorized hermits, and the odd fake priest.  I know of a priest who has a church in California, near the CalNeVa border, who celebrates the Tridentine rite, but who does not admit on his website the connection to any bishop; he is clearly of the SSPX or SSPV mentality but does not appear to be affiliated with any traditional Catholic or sedevacantist bishops.

I'm reminded of the "Light of the Spirit Monastery," formerly "Light of Christ Monastery," formerly "Holy Protection Gnostic Orthodox Monastery," a group by the self-proclaimed Abbot Bishop George Burke, who currently celebrates mass as a vangate in the Tridentine Rite, but encourages Hindu spirituality, believing in the Hindu idols and worships those said idols. On top of believing in Yoga as a legitimate, Christian spiritual exercise, his group also encourages Tarot Cards for spiritual communication.

Some people might think I'm making this up, connecting Tarot Cards and Hinduism to demonic spirituality, but I remember someone interested in this group being disturbed by their handing out of free Tarot Cards and realizing their blasphemous acts. I also listed a website which has links to their books where they encourage spiritual communication and Tarot.

They started in Oklahoma City, moved to Nebraska, moved to California, and are now located in New Mexico.

He originally was a member of the OCA, but then started learning about Yogananda and visited Holy Transfiguration Monastery, but then he started a strictly Hindu group, but then converted it to a Hindu-Old Catholicism group, where he was consecrated by an Old Catholic bishop, and then converted the group to Eastern Orthodox-Hinduism, and then Coptic Orthodox-Hinduism, and now they are Catholic-Hindu again.

This monastic community also owns "Monastery Icons," which unfortunately has sold their products to both Roman Catholics and Orthodox alike - and in both churches I have seen their icons used.
https://www.monasteryicons.com/

AVOID BUYING FROM THIS SITE AT ALL COSTS!

You can read more about them here if you aren't familiar with them:

http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/monasteryicons.aspx
https://www.aquinasandmore.com/blog/beware-of-monastery-icons/


May Lord have mercy on his soul....God, forgive them, for they know not what they do!

In the Evangelical movement, and related regions of Protestantism,  the Invisible Church ecclesiology leads to a condition where one could open up a church on one's own, legitimately and without the approval of any authority other than one's own sense of divine instruction from the Holy Spirit.


It is for this reason why I believe most cradle-Protestants, and a significant portion of cradle-Catholics and cradle-Orthodox have subscribed into believing moral relativism and deism, because they see all the contradictions that result from such a flawed idea.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 05:15:19 PM by LivenotoneviL »

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #76 on: August 21, 2017, 09:13:21 PM »
1. The influence of Polish and German artwork which came into Russia, and which would come to a clash with the Old Ritualist controversy with Patriarch Nikon (Who literally ordered a house to house search of Westernized icons and ordered that the eyes of these "counterfeit" icons to be gouged out and carried through the town in derision)
Can you develop on that, or maybe quote sources telling this at more length?
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #77 on: August 21, 2017, 10:18:10 PM »
1. The influence of Polish and German artwork which came into Russia, and which would come to a clash with the Old Ritualist controversy with Patriarch Nikon (Who literally ordered a house to house search of Westernized icons and ordered that the eyes of these "counterfeit" icons to be gouged out and carried through the town in derision)
Can you develop on that, or maybe quote sources telling this at more length?

Do you doubt it? Czars didn't mess around.
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #78 on: August 21, 2017, 10:47:52 PM »
Haven't the Syriac and/or Malankara Churches expressly denied the validity of vagante lines claiming to originate with them?

I don't think so, at least not "expressly".  In a roundabout way, sure (e.g., "These groups have and have had no connection to us").  We are more likely to make such a declaration with regard to groups that pose a real threat to us, but no one is threatened by Mar Ellis Jackson IV and the members of the Holy Syro-Coptic Orthodox Russian Anglo-Catholic Apostolic Universal Church of Columbia Heights.

Point taken.  But a friend of mine I consider to be knowledgeable recently said that the Syriac and/or Malankara Syrian Churches torpedoed the legitimacy of the René Vilatte and Jules Ferrette.  Is that true?  Perhaps he was referring to this (though it seems to refer only to the Vilatte line)?

Quote
A notice from the Syriac Patriarchate of Antioch and All the East concerning schismatic bodies and episcopi vagantes, dated December 10, 1938, states that "after direct expulsion from official Christian communities" some schismatic bodies exist, including "all the sects claiming succession through Vilatte," that claim "without truth to derive their origin and apostolic succession from some ancient Apostolic Church of the East" and

[...] some of these schismatic bodies have with effrontery published statements which are untrue as to an alleged relation "in succession and ordination" to our Holy Apostolic Church and her forefathers, We find it necessary to announce to all whom it may concern that we deny any and every relation whatsoever with these schismatic bodies and repudiate them and their claims absolutely. Furthermore, our Church forbids any and every relationship, and above all, intercommunion with all and any of these schismatic sects and warns the public that their statements and pretensions [...] are altogether without truth.[3](p70)

The notice named the AOC specifically as an example of such schismatic bodies.[

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Orthodox_Church#Relationship_to_Syriac_Patriarch

Maybe such a letter was issued, but I don't know if there were any others.  Anyway, based on the quote provided, I find it curious, funny, and perhaps typical.

Those are an interesting three adjectives to chose.  How so?

Curious: The quoted portion of the letter seems to make a big deal over how the Vilatte groups were expelled "from official Christian communities" before claiming lineage from "some ancient Apostolic Church of the East".  The language is rather ecumenical.  Who cares how "official" their denominations of origin are if they are not Orthodox?  Why focus on "some ancient...Church" rather than "our Church" or "the Church"?  It just sounds like the precursor ideology to a lot of what we have to deal with nowadays.   

Funny: I'm no expert on patriarchal letters coming out of Antioch, but from the ones I've read, it seems that the more important the subject matter, the loftier the rhetoric, but something is off.  It's like they're trying to do what the Greeks do, but not as well. 

Typical: this style goes back a few decades at least, as if they are following a template scribbled on a now-significantly-yellowed sheet of paper from the 1930s.   
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #79 on: August 21, 2017, 11:02:03 PM »
1. The influence of Polish and German artwork which came into Russia, and which would come to a clash with the Old Ritualist controversy with Patriarch Nikon (Who literally ordered a house to house search of Westernized icons and ordered that the eyes of these "counterfeit" icons to be gouged out and carried through the town in derision)
Can you develop on that, or maybe quote sources telling this at more length?

Do you doubt it? Czars didn't mess around.
Au contraire, rather curious about this particular event.
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #80 on: August 21, 2017, 11:26:28 PM »
Haven't the Syriac and/or Malankara Churches expressly denied the validity of vagante lines claiming to originate with them?

I don't think so, at least not "expressly".  In a roundabout way, sure (e.g., "These groups have and have had no connection to us").  We are more likely to make such a declaration with regard to groups that pose a real threat to us, but no one is threatened by Mar Ellis Jackson IV and the members of the Holy Syro-Coptic Orthodox Russian Anglo-Catholic Apostolic Universal Church of Columbia Heights.

Point taken.  But a friend of mine I consider to be knowledgeable recently said that the Syriac and/or Malankara Syrian Churches torpedoed the legitimacy of the René Vilatte and Jules Ferrette.  Is that true?  Perhaps he was referring to this (though it seems to refer only to the Vilatte line)?

Quote
A notice from the Syriac Patriarchate of Antioch and All the East concerning schismatic bodies and episcopi vagantes, dated December 10, 1938, states that "after direct expulsion from official Christian communities" some schismatic bodies exist, including "all the sects claiming succession through Vilatte," that claim "without truth to derive their origin and apostolic succession from some ancient Apostolic Church of the East" and

[...] some of these schismatic bodies have with effrontery published statements which are untrue as to an alleged relation "in succession and ordination" to our Holy Apostolic Church and her forefathers, We find it necessary to announce to all whom it may concern that we deny any and every relation whatsoever with these schismatic bodies and repudiate them and their claims absolutely. Furthermore, our Church forbids any and every relationship, and above all, intercommunion with all and any of these schismatic sects and warns the public that their statements and pretensions [...] are altogether without truth.[3](p70)

The notice named the AOC specifically as an example of such schismatic bodies.[

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Orthodox_Church#Relationship_to_Syriac_Patriarch

Maybe such a letter was issued, but I don't know if there were any others.  Anyway, based on the quote provided, I find it curious, funny, and perhaps typical.

Those are an interesting three adjectives to chose.  How so?

Curious: The quoted portion of the letter seems to make a big deal over how the Vilatte groups were expelled "from official Christian communities" before claiming lineage from "some ancient Apostolic Church of the East".  The language is rather ecumenical.  Who cares how "official" their denominations of origin are if they are not Orthodox?  Why focus on "some ancient...Church" rather than "our Church" or "the Church"?  It just sounds like the precursor ideology to a lot of what we have to deal with nowadays.   

Funny: I'm no expert on patriarchal letters coming out of Antioch, but from the ones I've read, it seems that the more important the subject matter, the loftier the rhetoric, but something is off.  It's like they're trying to do what the Greeks do, but not as well. 

Typical: this style goes back a few decades at least, as if they are following a template scribbled on a now-significantly-yellowed sheet of paper from the 1930s.   

It seems like you're (perhaps understandably) viewing this through the lens of the conflict between the two Orthodox jurisdictions in India.  My concern - as it pertains to the first paragraph - is that it seems what you're writing could be used to legitimize the Vilatte line.  I'm not entirely clear on the history here, but are you saying that the Vilatte line originated with the MOSC after it separated from Antioch and that is why Antioch is using such "curious" language here?  Do you view the Vilatte line as a legitimate one?  Does any Oriental Orthodox Church?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 11:27:28 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #81 on: August 21, 2017, 11:34:01 PM »
1. The influence of Polish and German artwork which came into Russia, and which would come to a clash with the Old Ritualist controversy with Patriarch Nikon (Who literally ordered a house to house search of Westernized icons and ordered that the eyes of these "counterfeit" icons to be gouged out and carried through the town in derision)
Can you develop on that, or maybe quote sources telling this at more length?

Do you doubt it? Czars didn't mess around.
Au contraire, rather curious about this particular event.


http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/nikon.htm
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2012/09/the-orthodoxy-of-st-basil-and-extremism.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_Nikon_of_Moscow (I know its Wikipedia, but it is how I first heard about it)
https://books.google.com/books?id=pqDkFgq1OYkC&pg=PA22&lpg=PA22&dq=iconoclasm+patriarch+nikon&source=bl&ots=y5UsJuew0F&sig=-eO_jxC4IYCm5Y6CPSvQyltY73k&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwibztjZ8-nVAhUk7oMKHUqsAggQ6AEIUTAH#v=onepage&q=iconoclasm%20patriarch%20nikon&f=false

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #82 on: August 21, 2017, 11:44:26 PM »
I'm also curious from Porter's perspective, because I could be wrong and I do not want people to spiritually be damaged - how do we distinguish between Icons that are focused on Heaven compared to pictures which are materialistic?

Is three-dimensional figurines in a painting the line, or what? And although you could argue the Peter and Christ Pantocrator icons from the 6th Century aren't icons, if they are, how would they be distinguished from the baroque-influenced iconography of Russian Churches....or 18th - 19th century Greek Churches as well.

Do you believe that Nikon was justified, or the synod that condemned him was from your knowledge on the subject.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 11:53:49 PM by LivenotoneviL »

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #83 on: August 21, 2017, 11:52:38 PM »
Haven't the Syriac and/or Malankara Churches expressly denied the validity of vagante lines claiming to originate with them?

I don't think so, at least not "expressly".  In a roundabout way, sure (e.g., "These groups have and have had no connection to us").  We are more likely to make such a declaration with regard to groups that pose a real threat to us, but no one is threatened by Mar Ellis Jackson IV and the members of the Holy Syro-Coptic Orthodox Russian Anglo-Catholic Apostolic Universal Church of Columbia Heights.

Point taken.  But a friend of mine I consider to be knowledgeable recently said that the Syriac and/or Malankara Syrian Churches torpedoed the legitimacy of the René Vilatte and Jules Ferrette.  Is that true?  Perhaps he was referring to this (though it seems to refer only to the Vilatte line)?

Quote
A notice from the Syriac Patriarchate of Antioch and All the East concerning schismatic bodies and episcopi vagantes, dated December 10, 1938, states that "after direct expulsion from official Christian communities" some schismatic bodies exist, including "all the sects claiming succession through Vilatte," that claim "without truth to derive their origin and apostolic succession from some ancient Apostolic Church of the East" and

[...] some of these schismatic bodies have with effrontery published statements which are untrue as to an alleged relation "in succession and ordination" to our Holy Apostolic Church and her forefathers, We find it necessary to announce to all whom it may concern that we deny any and every relation whatsoever with these schismatic bodies and repudiate them and their claims absolutely. Furthermore, our Church forbids any and every relationship, and above all, intercommunion with all and any of these schismatic sects and warns the public that their statements and pretensions [...] are altogether without truth.[3](p70)

The notice named the AOC specifically as an example of such schismatic bodies.[

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Orthodox_Church#Relationship_to_Syriac_Patriarch

Maybe such a letter was issued, but I don't know if there were any others.  Anyway, based on the quote provided, I find it curious, funny, and perhaps typical.

Those are an interesting three adjectives to chose.  How so?

Curious: The quoted portion of the letter seems to make a big deal over how the Vilatte groups were expelled "from official Christian communities" before claiming lineage from "some ancient Apostolic Church of the East".  The language is rather ecumenical.  Who cares how "official" their denominations of origin are if they are not Orthodox?  Why focus on "some ancient...Church" rather than "our Church" or "the Church"?  It just sounds like the precursor ideology to a lot of what we have to deal with nowadays.   

Funny: I'm no expert on patriarchal letters coming out of Antioch, but from the ones I've read, it seems that the more important the subject matter, the loftier the rhetoric, but something is off.  It's like they're trying to do what the Greeks do, but not as well. 

Typical: this style goes back a few decades at least, as if they are following a template scribbled on a now-significantly-yellowed sheet of paper from the 1930s.   

It seems like you're (perhaps understandably) viewing this through the lens of the conflict between the two Orthodox jurisdictions in India.  My concern - as it pertains to the first paragraph - is that it seems what you're writing could be used to legitimize the Vilatte line.  I'm not entirely clear on the history here, but are you saying that the Vilatte line originated with the MOSC after it separated from Antioch and that is why Antioch is using such "curious" language here?  Do you view the Vilatte line as a legitimate one?  Does any Oriental Orthodox Church?

Vilatte was ordained by the Orthodox Church in India (prior to any schism there) with a mission to evangelise.  Whatever he did in that regard, it doesn't seem to have had much connection with us and he died out of communion.  I don't view the Vilatte line as we have it as legitimate, though he did have authority to do it correctly.     

Now, if groups of people left "official Christian communities", got Vilatte ordinations, and claimed to be connected to our Church, I think it's proper to correct the record.  I guess my quibble is what difference it makes if they came from "official Christian communities".  I don't think it's a more serious issue if they are former RCs as opposed to former "Tabernacle of Deliverance and Empowerment Through the Shed Blood of Emmanuel Enterprises, LLC". 

Why should we validate other churches outside our bounds by labeling them "official"? 

If the followers of Vilatte came from "official Christian communities" which had no connection to us, why label them schismatic as if they broke off from us?  Or are they schismatic because they broke from an "official" body?   

I'm not starting from the Orthodox/Jacobite schism, but from a more fundamental distinction between Orthodoxy and not Orthodoxy.  ISTM that the seeds for a lot of modern problems were planted unawares back then.     
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #84 on: August 21, 2017, 11:54:54 PM »
I'm also curious from Porter's perspective, because I could be wrong and I do not want people to spiritually be damaged - how do we distinguish between Icons that are focused on Heaven compared to pictures which are materialistic?

"The eye is the lamp of the body..."

Love Jesus, kiss his icon. 
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #85 on: August 21, 2017, 11:56:52 PM »
I'm also curious from Porter's perspective, because I could be wrong and I do not want people to spiritually be damaged - how do we distinguish between Icons that are focused on Heaven compared to pictures which are materialistic?

Is three-dimensional figurines in a painting the line, or what? And although you could argue the Peter and Christ Pantocrator icons from the 6th Century aren't icons, if they are, how would they be distinguished from the baroque-influenced iconography of Russian Churches....or 18th - 19th century Greek Churches as well.

Passionlessness would seem to be the foremost requirement. This is the heavenly characteristic in which the supplicant's soul is reminded of true rest. Then some level of stylization so the mind is not captured by details ("Hey she looks like my old girlfriend"). Finally many icons incorporate an important visual language. I'm certainly not equipped to go beyond that.
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #86 on: August 22, 2017, 12:10:28 AM »
I've actually called and spoken with several vagantes.  All of them were cranks except one, who wasnt a bishop but a priest in a larger "vagante jurisdiction" somewhere between Anglicanism and Orthodoxy theologically.  He had been a monk in canonical Eastern and Western rite communities; I don't entirely understand the basis for his decision to work outside the canonical church, but his church, alhoufh miniscule, used to own property and run a soup kitchen, until they ran out of money, and still has legit parishioners.  I found him to be pious; he works for a bishop who is a vagante, from a canonical perspective, but nonetheless, this particular man was a decent man.
Thank you for trying to steer us back on topic, lol.

There are actually pretenders out there, not on the grand scale I just outlined, but you will find fake scholars wih degrees from bogus universities, fake monastics, unauathorized hermits, and the odd fake priest.  I know of a priest who has a church in California, near the CalNeVa border, who celebrates the Tridentine rite, but who does not admit on his website the connection to any bishop; he is clearly of the SSPX or SSPV mentality but does not appear to be affiliated with any traditional Catholic or sedevacantist bishops.

I'm reminded of the "Light of the Spirit Monastery," formerly "Light of Christ Monastery," formerly "Holy Protection Gnostic Orthodox Monastery," a group by the self-proclaimed Abbot Bishop George Burke, who currently celebrates mass as a vangate in the Tridentine Rite, but encourages Hindu spirituality, believing in the Hindu idols and worships those said idols. On top of believing in Yoga as a legitimate, Christian spiritual exercise, his group also encourages Tarot Cards for spiritual communication.

Some people might think I'm making this up, connecting Tarot Cards and Hinduism to demonic spirituality, but I remember someone interested in this group being disturbed by their handing out of free Tarot Cards and realizing their blasphemous acts. I also listed a website which has links to their books where they encourage spiritual communication and Tarot.

They started in Oklahoma City, moved to Nebraska, moved to California, and are now located in New Mexico.

He originally was a member of the OCA, but then started learning about Yogananda and visited Holy Transfiguration Monastery, but then he started a strictly Hindu group, but then converted it to a Hindu-Old Catholicism group, where he was consecrated by an Old Catholic bishop, and then converted the group to Eastern Orthodox-Hinduism, and then Coptic Orthodox-Hinduism, and now they are Catholic-Hindu again.

This monastic community also owns "Monastery Icons," which unfortunately has sold their products to both Roman Catholics and Orthodox alike - and in both churches I have seen their icons used.
https://www.monasteryicons.com/

AVOID BUYING FROM THIS SITE AT ALL COSTS!

You can read more about them here if you aren't familiar with them:

http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/monasteryicons.aspx
https://www.aquinasandmore.com/blog/beware-of-monastery-icons/


May Lord have mercy on his soul....God, forgive them, for they know not what they do!

In the Evangelical movement, and related regions of Protestantism,  the Invisible Church ecclesiology leads to a condition where one could open up a church on one's own, legitimately and without the approval of any authority other than one's own sense of divine instruction from the Holy Spirit.


It is for this reason why I believe most cradle-Protestants, and a significant portion of cradle-Catholics and cradle-Orthodox have subscribed into believing moral relativism and deism, because they see all the contradictions that result from such a flawed idea.

I understand your objections to their syncretic heresy and agree with them entirely.   That is gross heresy and horrible.

That said, I can't agree that people should avoid buying icons through their website; the icons they sell appear to be standard designs, I strongly doubt that the "Abbot Bishop" paints them himself, and if his website connects genuine Orthodox and Catholic icon painters and manufacturers to parishes, from a free market perspective, that's a good thing, helpful to the parishes and helpful to the painters and printers who produce icons.  I don't believe these icons would in any way be cursed simply by virtue of passing through an ecommerce website run by a man who thinks he's a bishop, but who is more accurately described as a crank, wacko and heresiarch.  That said, I would respect the decision of any who chose not to use that website for the reasons you stated (although suppose he sells it to someone who is genuinely Orthodox or Catholic?  Ecommerce sites change hands all the time)

You are right about the demonic aspects of tarot cards however.

Now, here is something else to consider: if a heretic, even an heresiarch, was at risk of starving or perishing from exposure, I would not hesitate to come to their assistance were it within my power to do so.  Indeed, by ministering to these people, we can show them the true light of Christ and help them to return to the fold.  The thing I would not do, ever, is say to a heresiarch vagante bishop "I'll feed you only if you renounce your heresies and return to the True Church."  God's love is unconditional, and so should our love also be unconditional.
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #87 on: August 22, 2017, 12:18:57 AM »
Haven't the Syriac and/or Malankara Churches expressly denied the validity of vagante lines claiming to originate with them?

I don't think so, at least not "expressly".  In a roundabout way, sure (e.g., "These groups have and have had no connection to us").  We are more likely to make such a declaration with regard to groups that pose a real threat to us, but no one is threatened by Mar Ellis Jackson IV and the members of the Holy Syro-Coptic Orthodox Russian Anglo-Catholic Apostolic Universal Church of Columbia Heights.

Point taken.  But a friend of mine I consider to be knowledgeable recently said that the Syriac and/or Malankara Syrian Churches torpedoed the legitimacy of the René Vilatte and Jules Ferrette.  Is that true?  Perhaps he was referring to this (though it seems to refer only to the Vilatte line)?

Quote
A notice from the Syriac Patriarchate of Antioch and All the East concerning schismatic bodies and episcopi vagantes, dated December 10, 1938, states that "after direct expulsion from official Christian communities" some schismatic bodies exist, including "all the sects claiming succession through Vilatte," that claim "without truth to derive their origin and apostolic succession from some ancient Apostolic Church of the East" and

[...] some of these schismatic bodies have with effrontery published statements which are untrue as to an alleged relation "in succession and ordination" to our Holy Apostolic Church and her forefathers, We find it necessary to announce to all whom it may concern that we deny any and every relation whatsoever with these schismatic bodies and repudiate them and their claims absolutely. Furthermore, our Church forbids any and every relationship, and above all, intercommunion with all and any of these schismatic sects and warns the public that their statements and pretensions [...] are altogether without truth.[3](p70)

The notice named the AOC specifically as an example of such schismatic bodies.[

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Orthodox_Church#Relationship_to_Syriac_Patriarch

Maybe such a letter was issued, but I don't know if there were any others.  Anyway, based on the quote provided, I find it curious, funny, and perhaps typical.

Those are an interesting three adjectives to chose.  How so?

Curious: The quoted portion of the letter seems to make a big deal over how the Vilatte groups were expelled "from official Christian communities" before claiming lineage from "some ancient Apostolic Church of the East".  The language is rather ecumenical.  Who cares how "official" their denominations of origin are if they are not Orthodox?  Why focus on "some ancient...Church" rather than "our Church" or "the Church"?  It just sounds like the precursor ideology to a lot of what we have to deal with nowadays.   

Funny: I'm no expert on patriarchal letters coming out of Antioch, but from the ones I've read, it seems that the more important the subject matter, the loftier the rhetoric, but something is off.  It's like they're trying to do what the Greeks do, but not as well. 

Typical: this style goes back a few decades at least, as if they are following a template scribbled on a now-significantly-yellowed sheet of paper from the 1930s.   

I know what you mean, my brother.  The Patriarchal Encyclicals of the Syriac Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch have this bizarre, curious affectation, in terms of the way they are numbered, worded, addressed, and so on.  They always seem distrivuted as PDFs or as images with the Patriarchal logo/seal/coat of arms thing.  They're not concise or clear in the way a typical encyclical or episcopal letter from any other jurisdiction is (just compare them with the letters issued by the His Beatitude the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch).

I have no idea why it is this way; one gets the impression from them of some vast ecclesiastical bureaucracy with hundreds of celibate secretary-monks processing thousands of dispatches daily, by hand and on typewriters, in a stuffy office in Damascus, kind of like the mailing room of the Vatican circa 1910.  It's a bit pretentious.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #88 on: August 22, 2017, 12:20:50 AM »
I'm also curious from Porter's perspective, because I could be wrong and I do not want people to spiritually be damaged - how do we distinguish between Icons that are focused on Heaven compared to pictures which are materialistic?

Is three-dimensional figurines in a painting the line, or what? And although you could argue the Peter and Christ Pantocrator icons from the 6th Century aren't icons, if they are, how would they be distinguished from the baroque-influenced iconography of Russian Churches....or 18th - 19th century Greek Churches as well.

Passionlessness would seem to be the foremost requirement. This is the heavenly characteristic in which the supplicant's soul is reminded of true rest. Then some level of stylization so the mind is not captured by details ("Hey she looks like my old girlfriend"). Finally many icons incorporate an important visual language. I'm certainly not equipped to go beyond that.

What is your view of "passionlessness?" Is it simply three-dimensional imagery? Is this the only criteria? At what point do such stylizations and influences become passion inducing?

Like, for example, the Russian icon of the Theotokos I posted - what about this icon in particular induces the passions, or as you say, "stirs the bowels?" Why is it not passionless?

What about "Theotokos Giver of Milk" (Don't Google this icon, it is a Byzantine icon in which Our Lady is visibly breastfeeding Christ...I personally don't find it appropriate for veneration)? Surely iconography can be passion inducing even if it is in the Byzantine - or even Middle Ages Roman / Romanesque or Coptic - style?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #89 on: August 22, 2017, 12:32:53 AM »
I think you misunderstand. I'm not talking about the passions of the supplicant, but of the icon.
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