Author Topic: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?  (Read 3372 times)

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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Offline juliogb

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2016, 06:11:50 AM »

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2016, 07:15:56 AM »
Lol, their website is a rabbit hole.
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Offline benjohn146

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2016, 08:13:16 AM »
Quote
Not at all! Rather he insists. “I am a wholistic Minister. I cast out the demons from their spirit in prayer, feed their soul with a positive mental attitude – with a burning desire to live a just life with teachings and writings, to thrive and to win. Then I put food in their mouth to give them strength and support them as they face the world. Towards becoming self reliant I empower them with skills that enable them to make money and be financially stable. The glory of God is a person fully alive.”

Humility seems like something he needs to improve  :P

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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2016, 08:23:39 AM »
Why are all of these psuedo-Orthodox all "coming out" of the Syriac Orthodox Church? That's what I want to know.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2016, 08:23:53 AM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2016, 08:32:31 AM »
Why are all of these psuedo-Orthodox all "coming out" of the Syriac Orthodox Church? That's what I want to know.

There are plenty of vagante/offshoot groups coming out of all the major players, which has been happening from the beginning. Although I may only think this because I am not yet "fully alive," so take what I say with a grain of salt.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2016, 10:53:15 AM »
These are probably the same guys that opened a couple of parishes in isolated places across Brazil: http://igrejaorthodoxa.dx.am/

They claim to practice the "Western Byzantine rite", while the liturgy they have in their site looks like a shortened version of St. John Chrysostom's DL.

Also, I don't want to point fingers or anything, but weirdly enough they have a section on their site dedicated to UAOC apology, another section calling Ukraine their "spiritual homeland" and their links section firstly mentions many UAOC sites, then some other uncanonical churches, then they start to fit OO, canonical EO and EC links in.
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2016, 11:14:04 AM »
Byzantine Orthodox Catholic Greek Syriac Church?  :o

Maybe they'll film more episodes of Seinfeld.

In that episode, they were Latvian Orthodox which is canonical.
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2016, 11:15:43 AM »
From their website: 
Our Primate, His Eminence Metropolitan Mar +Anthony was consecrated on April 18, 2011 to the Episcopacy of the Byzantine Catholic Church by Archbishop Peter Tang  and Co consecrated by Archbishop Jean Ndjewel of the Old Catholic Church. His Consecration was accepted into Orthodoxy through cheirothesia in February 2013 by Metropolitan Stephen Thomas and Archbishop Timothy Kjera of the Syriac Greek Antiochian Orthodox Catholic Church, Sharon Pennsylvanian, USA. He was issued a bull of Cheirothesia tou presbyteriou, thus his entrance into the Oriental Orthodoxy through the Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch.

This pretty much tells you everything you need to know.
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2016, 12:58:58 PM »
Why are all of these psuedo-Orthodox all "coming out" of the Syriac Orthodox Church? That's what I want to know.

Abp Vilatte.
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2016, 10:18:31 PM »
Why are all of these psuedo-Orthodox all "coming out" of the Syriac Orthodox Church? That's what I want to know.

Rene Villatte.
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2016, 10:18:52 PM »
Why are all of these psuedo-Orthodox all "coming out" of the Syriac Orthodox Church? That's what I want to know.

Abp Vilatte.

He was deposed.
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2016, 11:28:00 PM »
Why are all of these psuedo-Orthodox all "coming out" of the Syriac Orthodox Church? That's what I want to know.

Abp Vilatte.

He was deposed.
Not in the Syrian Byzantine Minnesotan Pan-Orthodox Church...
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2016, 11:08:16 AM »
Byzantine Orthodox Catholic Greek Syriac Church?  :o

I think it's funny that the first two entries under "Our Hierarchs" are "God the Almighty" and "Mor Ignatius Aphraim II".  And there's a profile for "God the Almighty", you know, in case you're unfamiliar with Him.  Oh, and they expressly declare themselves to be Monophysites.
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2016, 11:48:56 AM »
Byzantine Orthodox Catholic Greek Syriac Church?  :o

I think it's funny that the first two entries under "Our Hierarchs" are "God the Almighty" and "Mor Ignatius Aphraim II".  And there's a profile for "God the Almighty", you know, in case you're unfamiliar with Him.  Oh, and they expressly declare themselves to be Monophysites.

Finally, someone for the good folks at OrthodoxInfo.com et al. to target. 
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2016, 12:02:12 PM »
Byzantine Orthodox Catholic Greek Syriac Church?  :o

I think it's funny that the first two entries under "Our Hierarchs" are "God the Almighty" and "Mor Ignatius Aphraim II".  And there's a profile for "God the Almighty", you know, in case you're unfamiliar with Him.  Oh, and they expressly declare themselves to be Monophysites.

Finally, someone for the good folks at OrthodoxInfo.com et al. to target.

Perhaps as "New Generation Orthodox" members of the "Other Orthodox Family" they can seek shelter with Georgy and the gang over at theorthodoxchurch.info.
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2016, 12:19:37 PM »
Not only are they Monophysite, they're Monophysite because Christ "is from two natures Divine and Human".
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

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Offline Agabus

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2016, 03:48:00 PM »
And their primate is a Benedictine, too!
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2016, 05:27:59 PM »
Why are all of these psuedo-Orthodox all "coming out" of the Syriac Orthodox Church? That's what I want to know.

 ???

Not my impression that "all" come out from the Syriac Orthodox.

But in any case, imitation, albeit fraudulent, is a form of flattery.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2017, 05:36:32 PM »
It reminds me of this video that I found:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if-ZcWgrXhg&t=23s

This is a Western Rite orthodox church that is not in communion with any of the Patriarchs, because they have all succumbed to the heresy of modernism and new-calendarism.

They have a blog right here:
https://traditionalwesternorthodoxy.blogspot.com/

And they are a part of this organization, which is a communion of a bunch of orthodox churches who believe simularly that are mostly Western Rite in America only.
http://orthodoxmetropolia.org/

And I thought Most Holy Family Monastery was obscure.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 05:41:13 PM by LivenotoneviL »

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2017, 05:43:06 PM »
Haven't the Syriac and/or Malankara Churches expressly denied the validity of vagante lines claiming to originate with them?
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2017, 06:20:07 PM »
Haven't the Syriac and/or Malankara Churches expressly denied the validity of vagante lines claiming to originate with them?

I don't think so, at least not "expressly".  In a roundabout way, sure (e.g., "These groups have and have had no connection to us").  We are more likely to make such a declaration with regard to groups that pose a real threat to us, but no one is threatened by Mar Ellis Jackson IV and the members of the Holy Syro-Coptic Orthodox Russian Anglo-Catholic Apostolic Universal Church of Columbia Heights. 
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2017, 07:08:43 PM »
I'll say it: I take a slightly deranged enjoyment in reading the biographies and apostolic succession statements from all of these various churches. Nothing like Archbishop Metropolitan Mor Thomas Herbert Engelbert IV of the Apostolic See of Wahoo, Nebraska, who received his consecration in a living room from a guy with mismatched homemade vestments and is now Christ's Vicar to the Western Hemisphere. The longer the qualifiers, the better. These people are fascinating.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 07:09:17 PM by Aram »

Offline IreneOlinyk

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2017, 08:06:53 PM »
We are more likely to make such a declaration with regard to groups that pose a real threat to us, but no one is threatened by Mar Ellis Jackson IV and the members of the Holy Syro-Coptic Orthodox Russian Anglo-Catholic Apostolic Universal Church of Columbia Heights.

Is Columbia Heights in Columbia?  (LOL)

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2017, 08:07:38 PM »
It reminds me of this video that I found:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if-ZcWgrXhg&t=23s

This is a Western Rite orthodox church that is not in communion with any of the Patriarchs, because they have all succumbed to the heresy of modernism and new-calendarism.

They have a blog right here:
https://traditionalwesternorthodoxy.blogspot.com/

And they are a part of this organization, which is a communion of a bunch of orthodox churches who believe simularly that are mostly Western Rite in America only.
http://orthodoxmetropolia.org/

And I thought Most Holy Family Monastery was obscure.

This is the same ecclesial body that used to be known as the Milan Synod. They weren't always as radical as they are now.
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2017, 08:08:48 PM »
I'll say it: I take a slightly deranged enjoyment in reading the biographies and apostolic succession statements from all of these various churches. Nothing like Archbishop Metropolitan Mor Thomas Herbert Engelbert IV of the Apostolic See of Wahoo, Nebraska, who received his consecration in a living room from a guy with mismatched homemade vestments and is now Christ's Vicar to the Western Hemisphere. The longer the qualifiers, the better. These people are fascinating.

+1

I will admit that I only skim when their inevitable page justifying their particular existence has a 10,000 word essay starting with a history of the See of Utrecht. So many of them hit soooooo many of the same beats.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 08:10:22 PM by Agabus »
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2017, 08:28:45 PM »
Haven't the Syriac and/or Malankara Churches expressly denied the validity of vagante lines claiming to originate with them?

I don't think so, at least not "expressly".  In a roundabout way, sure (e.g., "These groups have and have had no connection to us").  We are more likely to make such a declaration with regard to groups that pose a real threat to us, but no one is threatened by Mar Ellis Jackson IV and the members of the Holy Syro-Coptic Orthodox Russian Anglo-Catholic Apostolic Universal Church of Columbia Heights.

Point taken.  But a friend of mine I consider to be knowledgeable recently said that the Syriac and/or Malankara Syrian Churches torpedoed the legitimacy of the René Vilatte and Jules Ferrette.  Is that true?  Perhaps he was referring to this (though it seems to refer only to the Vilatte line)?

Quote
A notice from the Syriac Patriarchate of Antioch and All the East concerning schismatic bodies and episcopi vagantes, dated December 10, 1938, states that "after direct expulsion from official Christian communities" some schismatic bodies exist, including "all the sects claiming succession through Vilatte," that claim "without truth to derive their origin and apostolic succession from some ancient Apostolic Church of the East" and

[...] some of these schismatic bodies have with effrontery published statements which are untrue as to an alleged relation "in succession and ordination" to our Holy Apostolic Church and her forefathers, We find it necessary to announce to all whom it may concern that we deny any and every relation whatsoever with these schismatic bodies and repudiate them and their claims absolutely. Furthermore, our Church forbids any and every relationship, and above all, intercommunion with all and any of these schismatic sects and warns the public that their statements and pretensions [...] are altogether without truth.[3](p70)

The notice named the AOC specifically as an example of such schismatic bodies.[

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Orthodox_Church#Relationship_to_Syriac_Patriarch
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Offline michaelus

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2017, 08:32:50 PM »
I'll say it: I take a slightly deranged enjoyment in reading the biographies and apostolic succession statements from all of these various churches. Nothing like Archbishop Metropolitan Mor Thomas Herbert Engelbert IV of the Apostolic See of Wahoo, Nebraska, who received his consecration in a living room from a guy with mismatched homemade vestments and is now Christ's Vicar to the Western Hemisphere. The longer the qualifiers, the better. These people are fascinating.
At least you guys don't have a "pope" hiding in his mom's attic...
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2017, 09:58:29 PM »
Haven't the Syriac and/or Malankara Churches expressly denied the validity of vagante lines claiming to originate with them?

I don't think so, at least not "expressly".  In a roundabout way, sure (e.g., "These groups have and have had no connection to us").  We are more likely to make such a declaration with regard to groups that pose a real threat to us, but no one is threatened by Mar Ellis Jackson IV and the members of the Holy Syro-Coptic Orthodox Russian Anglo-Catholic Apostolic Universal Church of Columbia Heights.

Point taken.  But a friend of mine I consider to be knowledgeable recently said that the Syriac and/or Malankara Syrian Churches torpedoed the legitimacy of the René Vilatte and Jules Ferrette.  Is that true?  Perhaps he was referring to this (though it seems to refer only to the Vilatte line)?

Quote
A notice from the Syriac Patriarchate of Antioch and All the East concerning schismatic bodies and episcopi vagantes, dated December 10, 1938, states that "after direct expulsion from official Christian communities" some schismatic bodies exist, including "all the sects claiming succession through Vilatte," that claim "without truth to derive their origin and apostolic succession from some ancient Apostolic Church of the East" and

[...] some of these schismatic bodies have with effrontery published statements which are untrue as to an alleged relation "in succession and ordination" to our Holy Apostolic Church and her forefathers, We find it necessary to announce to all whom it may concern that we deny any and every relation whatsoever with these schismatic bodies and repudiate them and their claims absolutely. Furthermore, our Church forbids any and every relationship, and above all, intercommunion with all and any of these schismatic sects and warns the public that their statements and pretensions [...] are altogether without truth.[3](p70)

The notice named the AOC specifically as an example of such schismatic bodies.[

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Orthodox_Church#Relationship_to_Syriac_Patriarch

Maybe such a letter was issued, but I don't know if there were any others.  Anyway, based on the quote provided, I find it curious, funny, and perhaps typical.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2017, 10:10:15 PM »
I'll say it: I take a slightly deranged enjoyment in reading the biographies and apostolic succession statements from all of these various churches. Nothing like Archbishop Metropolitan Mor Thomas Herbert Engelbert IV of the Apostolic See of Wahoo, Nebraska, who received his consecration in a living room from a guy with mismatched homemade vestments and is now Christ's Vicar to the Western Hemisphere. The longer the qualifiers, the better. These people are fascinating.
At least you guys don't have a "pope" hiding in his mom's attic...


 :'(
I actually, to a degree, feel sympathetic in a very ironic fashion to Pope Michael. I mean, I really feel that the Roman Catholic Church - which is self-destructing before our very eyes - is causing a lot of spiritual pain to people who once felt they had a safe home with an organization that at one point had a beautiful liturgy, beautiful art, a fascinating history and an organization that, before Vatican II, always fought against Modernism and fought against the contrary-to-Christ values of the day, fighting against contraception, abortion, moral-relativism, religious indifferentism, and which, despite the pride of the Papacy and the evil things the Roman Catholic Church has done since the Great Schism, with the Orthodox Church condemned ideas, values, and people which are forerunners to the Antichrist. People had a home, and back in the 60's and before, these people held that the very idea of the Roman Catholic as it exists today would be an impossibility due to its values, history, and culture, which they treasured - and all of which is very much almost completely gone.

When I see this person, Pope Michael, I see a man who throughout his whole life put everything in the Roman Catholic Church, who was spiritually attached to the Roman Catholic Church and, at one point of his life, put stock that this is where true happiness and peace can be found due to some spiritual experience - maybe he was a Protestant who converted, or maybe his parents gave it a fundamental place in his heart in his childhood. I see extreme cognitive dissonance and self-denial that what is happening cannot be happening, that he was wrong, and I see him spiritually mourning in pain, pushing him to prelest and sinfulness and to declare himself Pope. In his mannerisms from the videos I've seen online, with the way he acts, I see him trying to imitate Pope Pius XII - He's trying to bring back what was lost, to that period where he didn't have to worry about the Roman church, where he could feel comfortable having his family raised in a morally safe and beautiful environment - and its gone.

We should really say a prayer for him, because I really think this man, if he truly wants to find God, can find comfort in the Orthodox Church, and find peace - find God. He can find a culture and see the origin of the Roman Catholic Church, and have trust that, despite its problems, the gates of hell will never prevail against the Church, according to the Promise of Him who cannot lie.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 10:10:39 PM by LivenotoneviL »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2017, 10:31:49 PM »
I'm sorry, but what "beautiful art" is he preserving in his present role? And objecting to Vatican II for art's sake, as I'm taking it you do, strikes me as decadent, but I won't dwell on the topic.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 10:32:09 PM by Porter ODoran »
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2017, 10:37:09 PM »
I'll say it: I take a slightly deranged enjoyment in reading the biographies and apostolic succession statements from all of these various churches. Nothing like Archbishop Metropolitan Mor Thomas Herbert Engelbert IV of the Apostolic See of Wahoo, Nebraska, who received his consecration in a living room from a guy with mismatched homemade vestments and is now Christ's Vicar to the Western Hemisphere. The longer the qualifiers, the better. These people are fascinating.

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2017, 10:48:21 PM »
Haven't the Syriac and/or Malankara Churches expressly denied the validity of vagante lines claiming to originate with them?

I don't think so, at least not "expressly".  In a roundabout way, sure (e.g., "These groups have and have had no connection to us").  We are more likely to make such a declaration with regard to groups that pose a real threat to us, but no one is threatened by Mar Ellis Jackson IV and the members of the Holy Syro-Coptic Orthodox Russian Anglo-Catholic Apostolic Universal Church of Columbia Heights.

Point taken.  But a friend of mine I consider to be knowledgeable recently said that the Syriac and/or Malankara Syrian Churches torpedoed the legitimacy of the René Vilatte and Jules Ferrette.  Is that true?  Perhaps he was referring to this (though it seems to refer only to the Vilatte line)?

Quote
A notice from the Syriac Patriarchate of Antioch and All the East concerning schismatic bodies and episcopi vagantes, dated December 10, 1938, states that "after direct expulsion from official Christian communities" some schismatic bodies exist, including "all the sects claiming succession through Vilatte," that claim "without truth to derive their origin and apostolic succession from some ancient Apostolic Church of the East" and

[...] some of these schismatic bodies have with effrontery published statements which are untrue as to an alleged relation "in succession and ordination" to our Holy Apostolic Church and her forefathers, We find it necessary to announce to all whom it may concern that we deny any and every relation whatsoever with these schismatic bodies and repudiate them and their claims absolutely. Furthermore, our Church forbids any and every relationship, and above all, intercommunion with all and any of these schismatic sects and warns the public that their statements and pretensions [...] are altogether without truth.[3](p70)

The notice named the AOC specifically as an example of such schismatic bodies.[

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Orthodox_Church#Relationship_to_Syriac_Patriarch

Maybe such a letter was issued, but I don't know if there were any others.  Anyway, based on the quote provided, I find it curious, funny, and perhaps typical.

Those are an interesting three adjectives to chose.  How so?
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2017, 11:04:13 PM »
I'm sorry, but what "beautiful art" is he preserving in his present role? And objecting to Vatican II for art's sake, as I'm taking it you do, strikes me as decadent, but I won't dwell on the topic.

Wow....
This comment, I just want to let you know, caused me so much anger with this kind of snobbish attitude. Do you honestly believe that this is what I was referring to as the main problem in the Roman Catholic Church, that I could be that vain to believe that art - although very important - is the sole medium to have a relationship with God and have His Grace?!

I was a Roman Catholic in my faith who found it as a shelter very early on in my life, when I needed God in my life and was in a state of spiritual and mental torment and misery.

But who, by following the logic of Modernism and contemporary Roman Catholic liturgy, lost my relationship with God, and am dealing with the consequences of my almost infinite sins to this present hour, and later only to have it (my relationship with God) rediscovered in an Orthodox Church I visited after making friends here at college, which inevitably led me to a long period of questioning about my Faith - what I believed in, and after attending a contemporary charismatic Catholic service, I realized it was this evil ideology (which I deamed Modernism, as Pius X defines it (http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-x/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_19070908_pascendi-dominici-gregis.html)) which has infected the RCC like a virus caused my relationship with God to end - but due to God's grace, brought me to the Truth recently with the Orthodox Church. I was brought to certain questions, which were in my mind which I accepted, such as: If everyone got into heaven as long as you aren't a bad person, why pray or go to church at all? If being in a certain religion isn't important, why convert people at all? If we live in a culture where values can subjectively change, what's the point of following Christ at all, or what the Church taught for 2000 years! I lurked the hallways of Traditional Catholicism, even looking into Sedevacantism, and after reading the objective historical facts, the Orthodox Church is the True Church of Christ where you can find Salvation.

Maybe it was the Roman Catholic Church which led me to this dead end intrinsically, but I have come to my own personal own conclusions.

And if you actually read my comment, you would see that I do not put art as the most important aspect - but I wonder how you can possibly say that art isn't important in Church! Which seems what you are suggesting! Wasn't iconoclasm condemned in the 7th Ecumenical Council!?

And I'm not saying that it was Vatican II alone that caused everything by abandoning art - but from Vatican II onwards, there is a drastic shift in the Roman Catholic Church in terms of its watered-down catechesis, it's liturgy, it's values, and it's zeal. It's self-imploding, which is shown by the decrease in the Roman Catholic Church's numbers consistently since Vatican II. Admittedly, it began before Vatican II, but Vatican II did not help it but only accentuated this sad and mournful decline.

It is Modernism and the abandonment of the Roman Catholic Church which I see as the fundamental issue, with art being lost as a sinful side-effect

Am I justifying his behavior? NO!

He is clearly sinning and not justified at all!

But I feel sorry for him, cause he is in a vainful and impotent manner trying to bring back something gone.

I'm sorry if I came across snobby as all in this comment - I just really put my heart and soul in this comment, and reflected on the spiritual sadness and crying I had experienced recently, and as a matter of fact my eyes got watery writing that comment.

And to have you write this snobbish and condescending comment made me upset.
 
Maybe I am truly an idiot, maybe I am decedant, and feel free to think of me as a sophist who can't comprehend anything. I don't care what you think of me honestly. Go ahead, shake your head at me in your supremacy! And maybe look at me as a person who only cares about art and who is cognitively inflexible in that I cannot abandon anything that is traditional.

Go ahead, I don't care, because at the end of the day, God is my Judge, and I beg Him that He has mercy on me for my terrible life decisions, which I have committed even yesterday.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 11:07:02 PM by LivenotoneviL »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2017, 11:16:47 PM »
I don't think the Seventh Ecumenical Council was a statement regarding aesthetics, in the modern sense of the word. I think "art" in the modern sense is a work of the imagination that fevers the passions. Even the product of Palestrina would have been considered -- quite rightly, in my opinion -- enervating and effeminating by the sober ancients. Iconography is art only in the sense of ars, tekhne. It is the product of a sober formula calculated over holy generations effectually to attach the soul to heaven. I'm probably misreading your post again, as you accuse, but those are some of my thoughts.
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2017, 11:17:39 PM »
I'm sorry, but what "beautiful art" is he preserving in his present role? And objecting to Vatican II for art's sake, as I'm taking it you do, strikes me as decadent, but I won't dwell on the topic.

Wow....
This comment, I just want to let you know, caused me so much anger with this kind of snobbish attitude. Do you honestly believe that this is what I was referring to as the main problem in the Roman Catholic Church, that I could be that vain to believe that art - although very important - is the sole medium to have a relationship with God and have His Grace?!

I was a Roman Catholic in my faith who found it as a shelter very early on in my life, when I needed God in my life and was in a state of spiritual and mental torment and misery.

But who, by following the logic of Modernism and contemporary Roman Catholic liturgy, lost my relationship with God, and am dealing with the consequences of my almost infinite sins to this present hour, and later only to have it (my relationship with God) rediscovered in an Orthodox Church I visited after making friends here at college, which inevitably led me to a long period of questioning about my Faith - what I believed in, and after attending a contemporary charismatic Catholic service, I realized it was this evil ideology (which I deamed Modernism, as Pius X defines it (http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-x/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_19070908_pascendi-dominici-gregis.html)) which has infected the RCC like a virus caused my relationship with God to end - but due to God's grace, brought me to the Truth recently with the Orthodox Church. I was brought to certain questions, which were in my mind which I accepted, such as: If everyone got into heaven as long as you aren't a bad person, why pray or go to church at all? If being in a certain religion isn't important, why convert people at all? If we live in a culture where values can subjectively change, what's the point of following Christ at all, or what the Church taught for 2000 years! I lurked the hallways of Traditional Catholicism, even looking into Sedevacantism, and after reading the objective historical facts, the Orthodox Church is the True Church of Christ where you can find Salvation.

Maybe it was the Roman Catholic Church which led me to this dead end intrinsically, but I have come to my own personal own conclusions.

And if you actually read my comment, you would see that I do not put art as the most important aspect - but I wonder how you can possibly say that art isn't important in Church! Which seems what you are suggesting! Wasn't iconoclasm condemned in the 7th Ecumenical Council!?

And I'm not saying that it was Vatican II alone that caused everything by abandoning art - but from Vatican II onwards, there is a drastic shift in the Roman Catholic Church in terms of its watered-down catechesis, it's liturgy, it's values, and it's zeal. It's self-imploding, which is shown by the decrease in the Roman Catholic Church's numbers consistently since Vatican II. Admittedly, it began before Vatican II, but Vatican II did not help it but only accentuated this sad and mournful decline.

It is Modernism and the abandonment of the Roman Catholic Church which I see as the fundamental issue, with art being lost as a sinful side-effect

Am I justifying his behavior? NO!

He is clearly sinning and not justified at all!

But I feel sorry for him, cause he is in a vainful and impotent manner trying to bring back something gone.

I'm sorry if I came across snobby as all in this comment - I just really put my heart and soul in this comment, and reflected on the spiritual sadness and crying I had experienced recently, and as a matter of fact my eyes got watery writing that comment.

And to have you write this snobbish and condescending comment made me upset.
 
Maybe I am truly an idiot, maybe I am decedant, and feel free to think of me as a sophist who can't comprehend anything. I don't care what you think of me honestly. Go ahead, shake your head at me in your supremacy! And maybe look at me as a person who only cares about art and who is cognitively inflexible in that I cannot abandon anything that is traditional.

Go ahead, I don't care, because at the end of the day, God is my Judge, and I beg Him that He has mercy on me for my terrible life decisions, which I have committed even yesterday.

I should also state that I believe his subconcious intention is to try to recreate the Papacy of Pius XII by his own hands in a prideful manner.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2017, 11:28:49 PM »
I don't think the Seventh Ecumenical Council was a statement regarding aesthetics, in the modern sense of the word. I think "art" in the modern sense is a work of the imagination that fevers the passions. Even the product of Palestrina would have been considered -- quite rightly, in my opinion -- enervating and effeminating by the sober ancients. Iconography is art only in the sense of ars, tekhne. It is the product of a sober formula calculated over holy generations effectually to attach the soul to heaven. I'm probably misreading your post again, as you accuse, but those are some of my thoughts.

No, you are right. I didn't mean to imply that most Roman Catholic - if not all - artwork leads to a healthy spirituality, and I apologize if I gave that impression. Thank you for correcting me.

If you remember my post about the Pope Francis statue, and how I find realistic imagery of the saints very disturbing and disgusting, and even prayers using statues disturbing, you can figure out my attitude.

However, and maybe I'm just prejudiced as a Roman Catholic, but I think that artwork which, in some parts, is somewhat correct with other parts being incorrect is better than no artwork at all.

Obviously, both aren't "good," but I would say that this:

Is better than this:


And I'm sorry for such an irrational reaction, it's just that I am very immature spiritually still and my first moments with God were found in the Roman Catholic Church and its culture.

As someone who has just exited the door, my attachments are still lagging behind.

And maybe due to this cultural upbringing from my youth, I am more sympathetic towards prideful heretics who miss "the good ole days" (which, obviously, weren't perfect either).

My main point of the post was what Traditionalist Catholics point to as "Modernism," which is what I should've been more explicit with.

Not to suggest that one can find a proper relationship with Our Creator outside the Orthodox Church either.

And maybe, just maybe, it is the aesthetics which have pushed these people to having such a panic breakdown (me included)

And also, I didn't completely understand the intent of your post or your mindset - I interpreted it as simply a strawman argument.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 11:38:49 PM by LivenotoneviL »

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2017, 11:48:51 PM »
I don't think the Seventh Ecumenical Council was a statement regarding aesthetics, in the modern sense of the word. I think "art" in the modern sense is a work of the imagination that fevers the passions. Even the product of Palestrina would have been considered -- quite rightly, in my opinion -- enervating and effeminating by the sober ancients. Iconography is art only in the sense of ars, tekhne. It is the product of a sober formula calculated over holy generations effectually to attach the soul to heaven. I'm probably misreading your post again, as you accuse, but those are some of my thoughts.

No, you are right. I didn't mean to imply that most Roman Catholic - if not all - artwork leads to a healthy spirituality, and I apologize if I gave that impression. Thank you for correcting me.

If you remember my post about the Pope Francis statue, and how I find realistic imagery of the saints very disturbing and disgusting, and even prayers using statues disturbing, you can figure out my attitude.

However, and maybe I'm just prejudiced as a Roman Catholic, but I think that artwork which, in some parts, is somewhat correct with other parts being incorrect is better than no artwork at all.

Obviously, both aren't "good," but I would say that this:

Is better than this:


And I'm sorry for such an irrational reaction, it's just that I am very immature spiritually still and my first moments with God were found in the Roman Catholic Church and its culture.

As someone who has just exited the door, my attachments are still lagging behind.

And maybe due to this cultural upbringing from my youth, I am more sympathetic towards prideful heretics who miss "the good ole days" (which, obviously, weren't perfect either).

My main point of the post was what Traditionalist Catholics point to as "Modernism," which is what I should've been more explicit with.

Not to suggest that one can find a proper relationship with Our Creator outside the Orthodox Church either.

And maybe, just maybe, it is the aesthetics which have pushed these people to having such a panic breakdown (me included)

And also, I didn't completely understand the intent of your post or your mindset - I interpreted it as simply a strawman argument.

Whatever....I doubt that anybody can really understand such feelings of mine that have, from my pride, blackened my own rationality.
I mean, it isn't even close to the same, but could you imagine what the Orthodox Church would be like without her Liturgy?

Obviously, its (the RCC) spirituality is much, much different (and not healthy), but losing such regulated forms of worship is like penultimate destruction.

The ultimate destruction of the RCC, something that will happen even if it takes till Christ comes again, is sad with someone who has sinful nostalgia with this schismatic sect.

Maybe I should really take a break from this forum, because I really am too immature in my faith to discuss such complex topics without giving heretical implications that I don't intend.

In fact, maybe I had no relationship with God at all! Maybe I was deceived by Satan and was really praying to a demonic entity because of that accursed filioque. But God saw my effort and moved me into a healthier place where I can hopefully have a genuine relationship with Him.

But why am I analyzing Catholic artwork anyways - what good will it bring.

As someone who may possibly have no Grace at all, don't listen to me.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 11:57:26 PM by LivenotoneviL »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2017, 12:03:51 AM »
Oh don't apologize. You are hardly the first to find my posts angering. I think I speak for many when I say I enjoy having you here, value your posts, and find your spiritual journey engrossing.
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2017, 12:45:55 AM »
It's interesting where psychosis can lead people. Some think they're Napoleon, some think they're patriarchs.
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2017, 12:50:36 AM »
It's interesting where psychosis can lead people. Some think they're Napoleon, some think they're patriarchs.
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2017, 01:49:53 AM »
I'll say it: I take a slightly deranged enjoyment in reading the biographies and apostolic succession statements from all of these various churches. Nothing like Archbishop Metropolitan Mor Thomas Herbert Engelbert IV of the Apostolic See of Wahoo, Nebraska, who received his consecration in a living room from a guy with mismatched homemade vestments and is now Christ's Vicar to the Western Hemisphere. The longer the qualifiers, the better. These people are fascinating.
At least you guys don't have a "pope" hiding in his mom's attic...

Oh, Pope Michael is a particular favorite.

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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #43 on: August 21, 2017, 09:26:31 AM »
There was a "patriarch" of a Coptic Catholic Orthodox whatever it was who came and posted on oc.net, and EA (a Coptic oc.net poster here) a while ago was one of the people who got him so upset, he disbanded the name "Coptic" and chose another name for his group.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 09:26:58 AM by minasoliman »
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Re: Another psuedo-Orthodox Church?
« Reply #44 on: August 21, 2017, 10:26:47 AM »
I'll say it: I take a slightly deranged enjoyment in reading the biographies and apostolic succession statements from all of these various churches. Nothing like Archbishop Metropolitan Mor Thomas Herbert Engelbert IV of the Apostolic See of Wahoo, Nebraska, who received his consecration in a living room from a guy with mismatched homemade vestments and is now Christ's Vicar to the Western Hemisphere. The longer the qualifiers, the better. These people are fascinating.
At least you guys don't have a "pope" hiding in his mom's attic...

Oh, Pope Michael is a particular favorite.
But he doesn't have the style of Pope Athanasius I

« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 10:27:08 AM by Agabus »
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