Author Topic: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?  (Read 8248 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,419
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Which God have I insulted? I highly doubt that Most Christians Believe in the true God. I think Most people Believe in a God of their own imagination, which they then use to terrorise others. That is the God I have experienced and despise. To rebell against a false Tyrant God must be a righteous thing. I admire Nietzsche for ranting against protestant and catholic psychological terrorists.
I would disagree with you here. I think that most Christians believe in, and have experienced, the true God, but the accuracy of their understanding of him varies considerably. The question then is how can we grow in a correct understanding, while continuing to experience Him in truth. And the answer to that is in the Church - both through her teaching, and through meeting Christ in the Sacrament. These are precious gifts that the Lord has given us. Far better to focus your energy here, than on reading things that, at least for now, will only add to your distress.
You know... Augustine claimed that most people take the sacraments in vain: it doesnt help them. Either they are "elected" or "damned" without any choice of their own. How the Church has accepted this man and Justinian (!) as Saints but not Origen (!!!) is beyond me. Did the crusaders and the Ones behind the inquisition believe in the true God? Or did they Perhaps mistake the devil as being God?

That's your interpretation. A more useful understanding of election doesn't divorce it from free will. As eternity is to time, so predestination is to freedom of the will -- complements that appear opposed under mortal scrutiny -- paradoxes, as are all the largest truths.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Which God have I insulted? I highly doubt that Most Christians Believe in the true God. I think Most people Believe in a God of their own imagination, which they then use to terrorise others. That is the God I have experienced and despise. To rebell against a false Tyrant God must be a righteous thing. I admire Nietzsche for ranting against protestant and catholic psychological terrorists.
I would disagree with you here. I think that most Christians believe in, and have experienced, the true God, but the accuracy of their understanding of him varies considerably. The question then is how can we grow in a correct understanding, while continuing to experience Him in truth. And the answer to that is in the Church - both through her teaching, and through meeting Christ in the Sacrament. These are precious gifts that the Lord has given us. Far better to focus your energy here, than on reading things that, at least for now, will only add to your distress.
You know... Augustine claimed that most people take the sacraments in vain: it doesnt help them. Either they are "elected" or "damned" without any choice of their own. How the Church has accepted this man and Justinian (!) as Saints but not Origen (!!!) is beyond me. Did the crusaders and the Ones behind the inquisition believe in the true God? Or did they Perhaps mistake the devil as being God?

That's your interpretation. A more useful understanding of election doesn't divorce it from free will. As eternity is to time, so predestination is to freedom of the will -- complements that appear opposed under mortal scrutiny -- paradoxes, as are all the largest truths.
No that is Augustine's and Calvin's interpretation. And probably Paul's. And my conclusion at this moment in my life is that if their interpretation is right, then atheism is necessary. Then there is no God.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Which God have I insulted? I highly doubt that Most Christians Believe in the true God. I think Most people Believe in a God of their own imagination, which they then use to terrorise others. That is the God I have experienced and despise. To rebell against a false Tyrant God must be a righteous thing. I admire Nietzsche for ranting against protestant and catholic psychological terrorists.
I would disagree with you here. I think that most Christians believe in, and have experienced, the true God, but the accuracy of their understanding of him varies considerably. The question then is how can we grow in a correct understanding, while continuing to experience Him in truth. And the answer to that is in the Church - both through her teaching, and through meeting Christ in the Sacrament. These are precious gifts that the Lord has given us. Far better to focus your energy here, than on reading things that, at least for now, will only add to your distress.
You know... Augustine claimed that most people take the sacraments in vain: it doesnt help them. Either they are "elected" or "damned" without any choice of their own. How the Church has accepted this man and Justinian (!) as Saints but not Origen (!!!) is beyond me. Did the crusaders and the Ones behind the inquisition believe in the true God? Or did they Perhaps mistake the devil as being God?

That's your interpretation. A more useful understanding of election doesn't divorce it from free will. As eternity is to time, so predestination is to freedom of the will -- complements that appear opposed under mortal scrutiny -- paradoxes, as are all the largest truths.
And what is the paradox? Man creates a paradox where there is none.  When the orthodox church officially opposed calvinism they said that there is indeed predestination, but that this predestination is based om foreknowledge! Foreknowledge of the perdition of one person because of that person's misused freedom predestined him to hell before the foundation of the world! And yet, God created the world! He, eternal love, willed the world to come in to existence despite the misused freedom and eternal suffering of many! What God foreknows, he also wills. There is no paradox. All traditional thought inevitably leads to the same conclusion. Though some denies it. And others call it freedom of the Will. Unless you say that God has no power over freedom and that freedom is uncreated?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Yes... Augustine was in many ways a very evil man.The fact that Nietzsche rebelled against the western God so influenced by Augustine, Aquinas, Luther and Calvin is not surprising. Nietzsche is therefore IMO one of the greatest saints in the west. What he did was a righteous and heroic thing. Perhaps the greatest evil in christianity, the source of all evil, is Saint Paul himself. At least as he was interpreted in the west. As Nietzsche said and he deserves to be taken seriously:

"Paul thought up the idea, Augustine and Calvin rethought it, that for innumerable people damnation has been decreed from eternity, and that this beautiful world plan was instituted to reveal the glory of God: heaven and hell and humanity are thus supposed to exist - to satisfy the vanity of God! What cruel and insatiable vanity must have flared in the soul of the man who thought this up first, or second. Paul has remained Saul after all - the persecutor of God."

The logical conclusion of the system of Augustine and Calvin  (and Perhaps Saint Paul ) is that the Only one who deserves to be condemned to everlasting tortures in hell is God himself. Perhaps their God will realize that om judgement day, that by creating this world, he made a grotesque and unacceptable mistake.

I wouldn't say Augustine was evil. I would say that he was gravely mistaken. And not to be totally random, but you should take a break from theology and go experience some fiction. It seems to me that you have an inability to accept the world as it is or the importance of experience. About your own concerns for Good & Evil, Justice & Righteousness, etc. I'd suggest reading Thornton Wilder's The Bridge of San Luis Rey, play Final Fantasy VI or VII, or watching Season 1 of Gen Urobuchi's Psycho-Pass.

My assessment of the matter is this: If you were as opposed to Augustine's dark vision of God or humanity as you so claim, you wouldn't have such a hard time of accepting an alternative vision of God or humanity. It seems to me that at some level you enjoy the tension that results from such a nihilistic vision. I won't say that there is anything wrong with such catharsis. But do realize that at some point, you will need to move past it somehow.
You make some really Good Points actually! I am extremely influenced by Augustine and Calvin etc. And I believe that they need to be overcome. Even Paul in a certain sense needs to be overcome. I mean what they wrote. Something is needed. God might be all-powerful over being but perhaps he has no power over non-being for example? Perhaps freedom is uncreated, something over which God has no power?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,419
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Which God have I insulted? I highly doubt that Most Christians Believe in the true God. I think Most people Believe in a God of their own imagination, which they then use to terrorise others. That is the God I have experienced and despise. To rebell against a false Tyrant God must be a righteous thing. I admire Nietzsche for ranting against protestant and catholic psychological terrorists.
I would disagree with you here. I think that most Christians believe in, and have experienced, the true God, but the accuracy of their understanding of him varies considerably. The question then is how can we grow in a correct understanding, while continuing to experience Him in truth. And the answer to that is in the Church - both through her teaching, and through meeting Christ in the Sacrament. These are precious gifts that the Lord has given us. Far better to focus your energy here, than on reading things that, at least for now, will only add to your distress.
You know... Augustine claimed that most people take the sacraments in vain: it doesnt help them. Either they are "elected" or "damned" without any choice of their own. How the Church has accepted this man and Justinian (!) as Saints but not Origen (!!!) is beyond me. Did the crusaders and the Ones behind the inquisition believe in the true God? Or did they Perhaps mistake the devil as being God?

That's your interpretation. A more useful understanding of election doesn't divorce it from free will. As eternity is to time, so predestination is to freedom of the will -- complements that appear opposed under mortal scrutiny -- paradoxes, as are all the largest truths.
No that is Augustine's and Calvin's interpretation. And probably Paul's. And my conclusion at this moment in my life is that if their interpretation is right, then atheism is necessary. Then there is no God.

God is all-powerful, ergo, there is no God. Am I doing it right?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Which God have I insulted? I highly doubt that Most Christians Believe in the true God. I think Most people Believe in a God of their own imagination, which they then use to terrorise others. That is the God I have experienced and despise. To rebell against a false Tyrant God must be a righteous thing. I admire Nietzsche for ranting against protestant and catholic psychological terrorists.
I would disagree with you here. I think that most Christians believe in, and have experienced, the true God, but the accuracy of their understanding of him varies considerably. The question then is how can we grow in a correct understanding, while continuing to experience Him in truth. And the answer to that is in the Church - both through her teaching, and through meeting Christ in the Sacrament. These are precious gifts that the Lord has given us. Far better to focus your energy here, than on reading things that, at least for now, will only add to your distress.
You know... Augustine claimed that most people take the sacraments in vain: it doesnt help them. Either they are "elected" or "damned" without any choice of their own. How the Church has accepted this man and Justinian (!) as Saints but not Origen (!!!) is beyond me. Did the crusaders and the Ones behind the inquisition believe in the true God? Or did they Perhaps mistake the devil as being God?

That's your interpretation. A more useful understanding of election doesn't divorce it from free will. As eternity is to time, so predestination is to freedom of the will -- complements that appear opposed under mortal scrutiny -- paradoxes, as are all the largest truths.
No that is Augustine's and Calvin's interpretation. And probably Paul's. And my conclusion at this moment in my life is that if their interpretation is right, then atheism is necessary. Then there is no God.

God is all-powerful, ergo, there is no God. Am I doing it right?
If the Word "all-powerful" is to be interpreted as it has normally been yes. That is the source of atheism. As I said : what is the paradox? Man creates a paradox where there is none.  When the orthodox church officially opposed calvinism they said that there is indeed predestination, but that this predestination is based om foreknowledge! Foreknowledge of the perdition of one person because of that person's misused freedom predestined him to hell before the foundation of the world! And yet, God created the world! He, eternal love, willed the world to come in to existence despite the misused freedom and eternal suffering of many! What God foreknows, he also wills. There is no paradox. All traditional thought inevitably leads to the same conclusion. Though some denies it. And others call it freedom of the Will. Unless you say that God has no power over freedom and that freedom is uncreated?
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 05:45:37 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,419
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Which God have I insulted? I highly doubt that Most Christians Believe in the true God. I think Most people Believe in a God of their own imagination, which they then use to terrorise others. That is the God I have experienced and despise. To rebell against a false Tyrant God must be a righteous thing. I admire Nietzsche for ranting against protestant and catholic psychological terrorists.
I would disagree with you here. I think that most Christians believe in, and have experienced, the true God, but the accuracy of their understanding of him varies considerably. The question then is how can we grow in a correct understanding, while continuing to experience Him in truth. And the answer to that is in the Church - both through her teaching, and through meeting Christ in the Sacrament. These are precious gifts that the Lord has given us. Far better to focus your energy here, than on reading things that, at least for now, will only add to your distress.
You know... Augustine claimed that most people take the sacraments in vain: it doesnt help them. Either they are "elected" or "damned" without any choice of their own. How the Church has accepted this man and Justinian (!) as Saints but not Origen (!!!) is beyond me. Did the crusaders and the Ones behind the inquisition believe in the true God? Or did they Perhaps mistake the devil as being God?

That's your interpretation. A more useful understanding of election doesn't divorce it from free will. As eternity is to time, so predestination is to freedom of the will -- complements that appear opposed under mortal scrutiny -- paradoxes, as are all the largest truths.
No that is Augustine's and Calvin's interpretation. And probably Paul's. And my conclusion at this moment in my life is that if their interpretation is right, then atheism is necessary. Then there is no God.

God is all-powerful, ergo, there is no God. Am I doing it right?
If the Word "all-powerful" is to be interpreted as it has normally been yes. That is the source of atheism. As I said : what is the paradox? Man creates a paradox where there is none.  When the orthodox church officially opposed calvinism they said that there is indeed predestination, but that this predestination is based om foreknowledge! Foreknowledge of the perdition of one person because of that person's misused freedom predestined him to hell before the foundation of the world! And yet, God created the world! He, eternal love, willed the world to come in to existence despite the misused freedom and eternal suffering of many! What God foreknows, he also wills. There is no paradox. All traditional thought inevitably leads to the same conclusion. Though some denies it. And others call it freedom of the Will. Unless you say that God has no power over freedom and that freedom is uncreated?

You can add as many words as you like, but you're still implying that GodIDontLike == NoGod. You even call it a logical necessity. So, yeah, you have some 'splaining to do.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Which God have I insulted? I highly doubt that Most Christians Believe in the true God. I think Most people Believe in a God of their own imagination, which they then use to terrorise others. That is the God I have experienced and despise. To rebell against a false Tyrant God must be a righteous thing. I admire Nietzsche for ranting against protestant and catholic psychological terrorists.
I would disagree with you here. I think that most Christians believe in, and have experienced, the true God, but the accuracy of their understanding of him varies considerably. The question then is how can we grow in a correct understanding, while continuing to experience Him in truth. And the answer to that is in the Church - both through her teaching, and through meeting Christ in the Sacrament. These are precious gifts that the Lord has given us. Far better to focus your energy here, than on reading things that, at least for now, will only add to your distress.
You know... Augustine claimed that most people take the sacraments in vain: it doesnt help them. Either they are "elected" or "damned" without any choice of their own. How the Church has accepted this man and Justinian (!) as Saints but not Origen (!!!) is beyond me. Did the crusaders and the Ones behind the inquisition believe in the true God? Or did they Perhaps mistake the devil as being God?

That's your interpretation. A more useful understanding of election doesn't divorce it from free will. As eternity is to time, so predestination is to freedom of the will -- complements that appear opposed under mortal scrutiny -- paradoxes, as are all the largest truths.
No that is Augustine's and Calvin's interpretation. And probably Paul's. And my conclusion at this moment in my life is that if their interpretation is right, then atheism is necessary. Then there is no God.

God is all-powerful, ergo, there is no God. Am I doing it right?
If the Word "all-powerful" is to be interpreted as it has normally been yes. That is the source of atheism. As I said : what is the paradox? Man creates a paradox where there is none.  When the orthodox church officially opposed calvinism they said that there is indeed predestination, but that this predestination is based om foreknowledge! Foreknowledge of the perdition of one person because of that person's misused freedom predestined him to hell before the foundation of the world! And yet, God created the world! He, eternal love, willed the world to come in to existence despite the misused freedom and eternal suffering of many! What God foreknows, he also wills. There is no paradox. All traditional thought inevitably leads to the same conclusion. Though some denies it. And others call it freedom of the Will. Unless you say that God has no power over freedom and that freedom is uncreated?

You can add as many words as you like, but you're still implying that GodIDontLike == NoGod. You even call it a logical necessity. So, yeah, you have some 'splaining to do.
Well. IF theologians have interpreted this correctly then God seems to me to be evil. Venegance, jealousy etc. Are attributes described to God. Yet when a human is vengeful and jealous People consider it to be reprehensible. It is a logical necessity to be anti-theist if God has damned People before they are born. To me it even feels horrible to sense that God foreknows my fate.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 06:21:24 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,419
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Oh okay. So by "atheism" you meant fighting God who does exist. Well, that's certainly in keeping with the impious men you admire. How killing the one from whom you came, from whom you derive sense and judgment, and who gave you everything you richly enjoy is a superior moral choice I'll leave you and the mob of early- twentieth century pseudo-intellectuals to explain. Which I'm sure you will do without hesitation as soon as I press Post. Pondering is for the weak and grateful.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Oh okay. So by "atheism" you meant fighting God who does exist. Well, that's certainly in keeping with the impious men you admire. How killing the one from whom you came, from whom you derive sense and judgment, and who gave you everything you richly enjoy is a superior moral choice I'll leave you and the mob of early- twentieth century pseudo-intellectuals to explain. Which I'm sure you will do without hesitation as soon as I press Post. Pondering is for the weak and grateful.
If there was no hell, I think I would have killed myself today. Shall I admire and worship someone who created me just in order so that he could destroy me by torturing fire? A man who is tortured Long enough would rather want to die. Yet traditional theology says God planned it to be a hell where people will be tortured forever. Nothing there to be grateful about. It would have been so much better not to create the world at all then. Have you ever seen a suffering Child? A man torturing Another? Another attribute this to God is reprehensible. IF God is behind this, as in predestinating it, även foreknowing it and predestining it based on foreknowledge (which Is basically the same thing) then I refuse to worship him. Then life is the worst possible nightmare. Now I must sleep. Work tomorrow... Tomorrow I can present the Only possible alternative to this theological problem that I can right now come up with that could save me from this nightmare. Though I highly doubt People would accept the idea.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 06:55:40 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Rohzek

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,013
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #100 on: June 11, 2017, 06:55:01 PM »
Yes... Augustine was in many ways a very evil man.The fact that Nietzsche rebelled against the western God so influenced by Augustine, Aquinas, Luther and Calvin is not surprising. Nietzsche is therefore IMO one of the greatest saints in the west. What he did was a righteous and heroic thing. Perhaps the greatest evil in christianity, the source of all evil, is Saint Paul himself. At least as he was interpreted in the west. As Nietzsche said and he deserves to be taken seriously:

"Paul thought up the idea, Augustine and Calvin rethought it, that for innumerable people damnation has been decreed from eternity, and that this beautiful world plan was instituted to reveal the glory of God: heaven and hell and humanity are thus supposed to exist - to satisfy the vanity of God! What cruel and insatiable vanity must have flared in the soul of the man who thought this up first, or second. Paul has remained Saul after all - the persecutor of God."

The logical conclusion of the system of Augustine and Calvin  (and Perhaps Saint Paul ) is that the Only one who deserves to be condemned to everlasting tortures in hell is God himself. Perhaps their God will realize that om judgement day, that by creating this world, he made a grotesque and unacceptable mistake.

I wouldn't say Augustine was evil. I would say that he was gravely mistaken. And not to be totally random, but you should take a break from theology and go experience some fiction. It seems to me that you have an inability to accept the world as it is or the importance of experience. About your own concerns for Good & Evil, Justice & Righteousness, etc. I'd suggest reading Thornton Wilder's The Bridge of San Luis Rey, play Final Fantasy VI or VII, or watching Season 1 of Gen Urobuchi's Psycho-Pass.

My assessment of the matter is this: If you were as opposed to Augustine's dark vision of God or humanity as you so claim, you wouldn't have such a hard time of accepting an alternative vision of God or humanity. It seems to me that at some level you enjoy the tension that results from such a nihilistic vision. I won't say that there is anything wrong with such catharsis. But do realize that at some point, you will need to move past it somehow.
You make some really Good Points actually! I am extremely influenced by Augustine and Calvin etc. And I believe that they need to be overcome. Even Paul in a certain sense needs to be overcome. I mean what they wrote. Something is needed. God might be all-powerful over being but perhaps he has no power over non-being for example? Perhaps freedom is uncreated, something over which God has no power?

Freedom is just conceptual. Don't give it concrete existence. Like I said, take a break from theology for once and go experience something else. You'll have plenty of time to relish problems afterwards.

Which God have I insulted? I highly doubt that Most Christians Believe in the true God. I think Most people Believe in a God of their own imagination, which they then use to terrorise others. That is the God I have experienced and despise. To rebell against a false Tyrant God must be a righteous thing. I admire Nietzsche for ranting against protestant and catholic psychological terrorists.
I would disagree with you here. I think that most Christians believe in, and have experienced, the true God, but the accuracy of their understanding of him varies considerably. The question then is how can we grow in a correct understanding, while continuing to experience Him in truth. And the answer to that is in the Church - both through her teaching, and through meeting Christ in the Sacrament. These are precious gifts that the Lord has given us. Far better to focus your energy here, than on reading things that, at least for now, will only add to your distress.
You know... Augustine claimed that most people take the sacraments in vain: it doesnt help them. Either they are "elected" or "damned" without any choice of their own. How the Church has accepted this man and Justinian (!) as Saints but not Origen (!!!) is beyond me. Did the crusaders and the Ones behind the inquisition believe in the true God? Or did they Perhaps mistake the devil as being God?

That's your interpretation. A more useful understanding of election doesn't divorce it from free will. As eternity is to time, so predestination is to freedom of the will -- complements that appear opposed under mortal scrutiny -- paradoxes, as are all the largest truths.
No that is Augustine's and Calvin's interpretation. And probably Paul's. And my conclusion at this moment in my life is that if their interpretation is right, then atheism is necessary. Then there is no God.

God is all-powerful, ergo, there is no God. Am I doing it right?
If the Word "all-powerful" is to be interpreted as it has normally been yes. That is the source of atheism. As I said : what is the paradox? Man creates a paradox where there is none.  When the orthodox church officially opposed calvinism they said that there is indeed predestination, but that this predestination is based om foreknowledge! Foreknowledge of the perdition of one person because of that person's misused freedom predestined him to hell before the foundation of the world! And yet, God created the world! He, eternal love, willed the world to come in to existence despite the misused freedom and eternal suffering of many! What God foreknows, he also wills. There is no paradox. All traditional thought inevitably leads to the same conclusion. Though some denies it. And others call it freedom of the Will. Unless you say that God has no power over freedom and that freedom is uncreated?

First, I disagree with your conclusion. Just because God might be evil or disagreeable, it does not therefore mean that he does not exist. I once thought God as a reprehensible figure for all of my own misfortunes. When I was convinced that he was of such character, I faced two options: quit belief or enter into a battle against God that I knew I would most certainly lose. I tried for like 2 weeks to not believe. I couldn't do it. I felt such attempts to be the act of a coward. So I entered into an animus against God, but with a sense of pride and utter relish. Obviously, I'm not that way now, and I do not intend to share my own experience any further for the sake of my own privacy and my conviction that it would be of no use here.

As for your aside about God's will, herein is your problem. God's will has three aspects: 1.) that which He wills and serves as the efficient cause; 2.) that which He wills and merely approves of; and 3.) that which He permits. In the sense that God wills evil, it is strictly in the sense that He permits it.

In all honesty though, aside from your own enjoyment of nihilism, I'm not sure why you seem to only have considered Augustine or Calvin's reading of Romans. While I seriously suggest that you disengage for a while from theology and go do something else, especially liberal artsy, if you won't listen to such advise, then I can only suggest that you read Tychonius' Book of Rules which offers a serious analysis of Romans that differs from Augustine. I think you should also read St. John Cassian, St. Vincent of Lérins, Boethius, or John Scotus Eriugena. I'd also suggest St. Faustus of Rietz, but his work remains untranslated.

Cassian's Conferences: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3506.htm
Vincent's Commonitory: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3506.htm
Tychonius: Book of Rules https://www.amazon.com/Tyconius-Translations-Society-Biblical-Literature/dp/1555403670/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1497221230&sr=8-2&keywords=tyconius+book+of+rules
Boethius: The Consolation of Philosophy: https://www.amazon.com/Consolation-Philosophy-Boethius/dp/1614270457/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1497221436&sr=1-1&keywords=boethius+consolation+of+philosophy+richard+green
John Scotus Eriugena: On Divine Predestination: https://www.amazon.com/Treatise-Divine-Predestination-Medieval-Culture/dp/0268042217/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1497221518&sr=1-7&keywords=john+scotus+eriugena

Again though, I think you'd be better off delving into other things besides theology for the time being. I'm not telling you to abandon your catharsis, which is easier said than done. I'm just saying there is a more productive way to go about it.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 06:58:57 PM by Rohzek »
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,999
  • Pray for me Sts. Mina & Kyrillos for my interviews
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #101 on: June 11, 2017, 06:58:38 PM »
This seems relevant here. When faced with the possibility that some Church Fathers like Augustine, Ambrose and Jerome might have taught the filioque doctrine, St. Photius answered this in various ways. Here was one of his arguments:

Quote
It is possible to find many other examples in our holy and blessed fathers. I have in mind Clement, one of the bishops of [Old] Rome. Consider the books which are known from him as Clementine (I do not say write because, according to ancient report, Peter the Coryphaeus commanded they be written). Consider also Dionysius of Alexandria, who in stretching out his hand against Sabellius nearly joins with Arius. Consider also the splendour of the sacred-martyr, Methodius the Great of Patara, who did not reject the idea that angels fell into mortal desire and bodily intercourse, even though they are incorporeal and without passions. I shall pass over Pantaenos, Clement, Pierios, Pamphilos and Theognostos, all holy men and teachers of holy disciples whom we hymn with great honour and affection, especially Pamphilos and Pierios, distinguished by the trials of martyrdom.

Although we do not accept all of their statements, we grant them honour for their patient disposition and goodness of life and for their other doctrines. In addition to those previously mentioned, there is Irenaeus, the bishop of God, who received the supervision of sacred things in Lyons and also Hippolytus, his disciple, the Episcopal martyr: all of these were admirable in many ways, though at times some of their writings do not avoid departing from orthodoxy

-- St. Photius the Great, Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit, 75

Beebert, read this quoted post, and consider how you discuss ancient church fathers in disagreeing with them without addressing their person directly.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #102 on: June 11, 2017, 06:59:55 PM »
I have written a poem that ends like this:
"And in this hideous despair,
Where was a man, nay a God
Who cared?"

« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 07:05:03 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,419
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #103 on: June 11, 2017, 07:03:06 PM »
I have written a poem that ends like this:
"And in this hideous despair,
Where was a man, nay a God
Who cared?"

In celebration, I've rented you your own personal orchestra.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 07:03:35 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #104 on: June 11, 2017, 07:05:21 PM »
I have written a poem that ends like this:
"And in this hideous despair,
Where was a man, nay a God
Who cared?"

In celebration, I've rented you your own personal orchestra.

And earlier in the poem we have this :
"All spoke of the tortures of hell
But no one mentioned the boredom of heaven"

IF Augustine and Calvin were right: Sure! Sand me to hell! I rather be there than worshipping their Tyrant in heaven. But send me there ALONE. NO one else should suffer because of the fate of being born.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,419
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #105 on: June 11, 2017, 07:10:44 PM »
I have written a poem that ends like this:
"And in this hideous despair,
Where was a man, nay a God
Who cared?"

In celebration, I've rented you your own personal orchestra.

And earlier in the poem we have this :
"All spoke of the tortures of hell
But no one mentioned the boredom of heaven"

IF Augustine and Calvin were right: Sure! Sand me to hell! I rather be there than worshipping their Tyrant in heaven. But send me there ALONE. NO one else should suffer because of the fate of being born.

How very popular you would have been among wealthy college-boys of the 1890s.

Has it ever occurred to you that you curse the wonderful life you revel in, with all this? You, wrapped in sunshine, filled with good things, held up by strong bones and tendons, surrounded by variety and beauty, with a mind to enjoy it all.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #106 on: June 11, 2017, 07:17:31 PM »
I have written a poem that ends like this:
"And in this hideous despair,
Where was a man, nay a God
Who cared?"

In celebration, I've rented you your own personal orchestra.

And earlier in the poem we have this :
"All spoke of the tortures of hell
But no one mentioned the boredom of heaven"

IF Augustine and Calvin were right: Sure! Sand me to hell! I rather be there than worshipping their Tyrant in heaven. But send me there ALONE. NO one else should suffer because of the fate of being born.

How very popular you would have been among wealthy college-boys of the 1890s.

Has it ever occurred to you that you curse the wonderful life you revel in, with all this? You, wrapped in sunshine, filled with good things, held up by strong bones and tendons, surrounded by variety and beauty, with a mind to enjoy it all.
Before God turns up and curses me for enjoying my life? No not even that! Cursing me because I was Born and created. Cursing me just because he created me only for the purpose of cursing and torturing me after death? How can I then possibly enjoy life, with the terrors not only of this life but of eternal hell after this life as well constantly behind my back, constantly torturing my mind? Looking around me seeing all these happy People, not being aware of that they are here just in order to be infinitely tortured for God's self-glorification? Would you enjoy such a life?
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 07:18:14 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,419
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #107 on: June 11, 2017, 07:18:30 PM »
I have written a poem that ends like this:
"And in this hideous despair,
Where was a man, nay a God
Who cared?"

In celebration, I've rented you your own personal orchestra.

And earlier in the poem we have this :
"All spoke of the tortures of hell
But no one mentioned the boredom of heaven"

IF Augustine and Calvin were right: Sure! Sand me to hell! I rather be there than worshipping their Tyrant in heaven. But send me there ALONE. NO one else should suffer because of the fate of being born.

How very popular you would have been among wealthy college-boys of the 1890s.

Has it ever occurred to you that you curse the wonderful life you revel in, with all this? You, wrapped in sunshine, filled with good things, held up by strong bones and tendons, surrounded by variety and beauty, with a mind to enjoy it all.
Before God turns up and curses me for enjoying my life? No not even that! Cursing me because I was Born and created. Cursing me just because he created me only for the purpose of cursing and torturing me after death? How can I then possibly enjoy life, with the terrors not only of this life but of eternal hell after this life as well constantly behind my back, constantly torturing my mind? Looking around me seeing all these happy People, not being aware of that they are just here in order to be infinitely tortured? Would you enjoy such a life?

Oh yes he has cursed you so. Cursed you with an extra helping of dinner today, if I don't miss my guess.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #108 on: June 11, 2017, 07:20:09 PM »
I have written a poem that ends like this:
"And in this hideous despair,
Where was a man, nay a God
Who cared?"

In celebration, I've rented you your own personal orchestra.

And earlier in the poem we have this :
"All spoke of the tortures of hell
But no one mentioned the boredom of heaven"

IF Augustine and Calvin were right: Sure! Sand me to hell! I rather be there than worshipping their Tyrant in heaven. But send me there ALONE. NO one else should suffer because of the fate of being born.

How very popular you would have been among wealthy college-boys of the 1890s.

Has it ever occurred to you that you curse the wonderful life you revel in, with all this? You, wrapped in sunshine, filled with good things, held up by strong bones and tendons, surrounded by variety and beauty, with a mind to enjoy it all.
Before God turns up and curses me for enjoying my life? No not even that! Cursing me because I was Born and created. Cursing me just because he created me only for the purpose of cursing and torturing me after death? How can I then possibly enjoy life, with the terrors not only of this life but of eternal hell after this life as well constantly behind my back, constantly torturing my mind? Looking around me seeing all these happy People, not being aware of that they are just here in order to be infinitely tortured? Would you enjoy such a life?

Oh yes he has cursed you so. Cursed you with an extra helping of dinner today, if I don't miss my guess.
Mock me all you want. Good night.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,881
  • Excelsior
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #109 on: June 11, 2017, 07:21:49 PM »
Yet another kid reads a couple cursory philosophy books and turns into a ranting crank who thinks he knows it all. Good riddance.  ::)
My only weakness is, well, never mind

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #110 on: June 11, 2017, 07:22:12 PM »
Yes... Augustine was in many ways a very evil man.The fact that Nietzsche rebelled against the western God so influenced by Augustine, Aquinas, Luther and Calvin is not surprising. Nietzsche is therefore IMO one of the greatest saints in the west. What he did was a righteous and heroic thing. Perhaps the greatest evil in christianity, the source of all evil, is Saint Paul himself. At least as he was interpreted in the west. As Nietzsche said and he deserves to be taken seriously:

"Paul thought up the idea, Augustine and Calvin rethought it, that for innumerable people damnation has been decreed from eternity, and that this beautiful world plan was instituted to reveal the glory of God: heaven and hell and humanity are thus supposed to exist - to satisfy the vanity of God! What cruel and insatiable vanity must have flared in the soul of the man who thought this up first, or second. Paul has remained Saul after all - the persecutor of God."

The logical conclusion of the system of Augustine and Calvin  (and Perhaps Saint Paul ) is that the Only one who deserves to be condemned to everlasting tortures in hell is God himself. Perhaps their God will realize that om judgement day, that by creating this world, he made a grotesque and unacceptable mistake.

I wouldn't say Augustine was evil. I would say that he was gravely mistaken. And not to be totally random, but you should take a break from theology and go experience some fiction. It seems to me that you have an inability to accept the world as it is or the importance of experience. About your own concerns for Good & Evil, Justice & Righteousness, etc. I'd suggest reading Thornton Wilder's The Bridge of San Luis Rey, play Final Fantasy VI or VII, or watching Season 1 of Gen Urobuchi's Psycho-Pass.

My assessment of the matter is this: If you were as opposed to Augustine's dark vision of God or humanity as you so claim, you wouldn't have such a hard time of accepting an alternative vision of God or humanity. It seems to me that at some level you enjoy the tension that results from such a nihilistic vision. I won't say that there is anything wrong with such catharsis. But do realize that at some point, you will need to move past it somehow.
You make some really Good Points actually! I am extremely influenced by Augustine and Calvin etc. And I believe that they need to be overcome. Even Paul in a certain sense needs to be overcome. I mean what they wrote. Something is needed. God might be all-powerful over being but perhaps he has no power over non-being for example? Perhaps freedom is uncreated, something over which God has no power?

Freedom is just conceptual. Don't give it concrete existence. Like I said, take a break from theology for once and go experience something else. You'll have plenty of time to relish problems afterwards.

Which God have I insulted? I highly doubt that Most Christians Believe in the true God. I think Most people Believe in a God of their own imagination, which they then use to terrorise others. That is the God I have experienced and despise. To rebell against a false Tyrant God must be a righteous thing. I admire Nietzsche for ranting against protestant and catholic psychological terrorists.
I would disagree with you here. I think that most Christians believe in, and have experienced, the true God, but the accuracy of their understanding of him varies considerably. The question then is how can we grow in a correct understanding, while continuing to experience Him in truth. And the answer to that is in the Church - both through her teaching, and through meeting Christ in the Sacrament. These are precious gifts that the Lord has given us. Far better to focus your energy here, than on reading things that, at least for now, will only add to your distress.
You know... Augustine claimed that most people take the sacraments in vain: it doesnt help them. Either they are "elected" or "damned" without any choice of their own. How the Church has accepted this man and Justinian (!) as Saints but not Origen (!!!) is beyond me. Did the crusaders and the Ones behind the inquisition believe in the true God? Or did they Perhaps mistake the devil as being God?

That's your interpretation. A more useful understanding of election doesn't divorce it from free will. As eternity is to time, so predestination is to freedom of the will -- complements that appear opposed under mortal scrutiny -- paradoxes, as are all the largest truths.
No that is Augustine's and Calvin's interpretation. And probably Paul's. And my conclusion at this moment in my life is that if their interpretation is right, then atheism is necessary. Then there is no God.

God is all-powerful, ergo, there is no God. Am I doing it right?
If the Word "all-powerful" is to be interpreted as it has normally been yes. That is the source of atheism. As I said : what is the paradox? Man creates a paradox where there is none.  When the orthodox church officially opposed calvinism they said that there is indeed predestination, but that this predestination is based om foreknowledge! Foreknowledge of the perdition of one person because of that person's misused freedom predestined him to hell before the foundation of the world! And yet, God created the world! He, eternal love, willed the world to come in to existence despite the misused freedom and eternal suffering of many! What God foreknows, he also wills. There is no paradox. All traditional thought inevitably leads to the same conclusion. Though some denies it. And others call it freedom of the Will. Unless you say that God has no power over freedom and that freedom is uncreated?

First, I disagree with your conclusion. Just because God might be evil or disagreeable, it does not therefore mean that he does not exist. I once thought God as a reprehensible figure for all of my own misfortunes. When I was convinced that he was of such character, I faced two options: quit belief or enter into a battle against God that I knew I would most certainly lose. I tried for like 2 weeks to not believe. I couldn't do it. I felt such attempts to be the act of a coward. So I entered into an animus against God, but with a sense of pride and utter relish. Obviously, I'm not that way now, and I do not intend to share my own experience any further for the sake of my own privacy and my conviction that it would be of no use here.

As for your aside about God's will, herein is your problem. God's will has three aspects: 1.) that which He wills and serves as the efficient cause; 2.) that which He wills and merely approves of; and 3.) that which He permits. In the sense that God wills evil, it is strictly in the sense that He permits it.

In all honesty though, aside from your own enjoyment of nihilism, I'm not sure why you seem to only have considered Augustine or Calvin's reading of Romans. While I seriously suggest that you disengage for a while from theology and go do something else, especially liberal artsy, if you won't listen to such advise, then I can only suggest that you read Tychonius' Book of Rules which offers a serious analysis of Romans that differs from Augustine. I think you should also read St. John Cassian, St. Vincent of Lérins, Boethius, or John Scotus Eriugena. I'd also suggest St. Faustus of Rietz, but his work remains untranslated.

Cassian's Conferences: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3506.htm
Vincent's Commonitory: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3506.htm
Tychonius: Book of Rules https://www.amazon.com/Tyconius-Translations-Society-Biblical-Literature/dp/1555403670/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1497221230&sr=8-2&keywords=tyconius+book+of+rules
Boethius: The Consolation of Philosophy: https://www.amazon.com/Consolation-Philosophy-Boethius/dp/1614270457/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1497221436&sr=1-1&keywords=boethius+consolation+of+philosophy+richard+green
John Scotus Eriugena: On Divine Predestination: https://www.amazon.com/Treatise-Divine-Predestination-Medieval-Culture/dp/0268042217/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1497221518&sr=1-7&keywords=john+scotus+eriugena

Again though, I think you'd be better off delving into other things besides theology for the time being. I'm not telling you to abandon your catharsis, which is easier said than done. I'm just saying there is a more productive way to go about it.
I have read your post! It was very constructive and I thank you for it! I will answer it tomorrow, since now I really need to sleep...
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #111 on: June 11, 2017, 07:25:04 PM »
Yet another kid reads a couple cursory philosophy books and turns into a ranting crank who thinks he knows it all. Good riddance.  ::)
Cursory? Really? I dont suggest I know anything. One of my major convictions is that the world truly is our representation. Mock me all you want though.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,419
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #112 on: June 11, 2017, 07:32:10 PM »
I have written a poem that ends like this:
"And in this hideous despair,
Where was a man, nay a God
Who cared?"

In celebration, I've rented you your own personal orchestra.

And earlier in the poem we have this :
"All spoke of the tortures of hell
But no one mentioned the boredom of heaven"

IF Augustine and Calvin were right: Sure! Sand me to hell! I rather be there than worshipping their Tyrant in heaven. But send me there ALONE. NO one else should suffer because of the fate of being born.

How very popular you would have been among wealthy college-boys of the 1890s.

Has it ever occurred to you that you curse the wonderful life you revel in, with all this? You, wrapped in sunshine, filled with good things, held up by strong bones and tendons, surrounded by variety and beauty, with a mind to enjoy it all.
Before God turns up and curses me for enjoying my life? No not even that! Cursing me because I was Born and created. Cursing me just because he created me only for the purpose of cursing and torturing me after death? How can I then possibly enjoy life, with the terrors not only of this life but of eternal hell after this life as well constantly behind my back, constantly torturing my mind? Looking around me seeing all these happy People, not being aware of that they are just here in order to be infinitely tortured? Would you enjoy such a life?

Oh yes he has cursed you so. Cursed you with an extra helping of dinner today, if I don't miss my guess.
Mock me all you want. Good night.

"He giveth his beloved sleep" (Psalmist).
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #113 on: June 11, 2017, 07:39:12 PM »
I have written a poem that ends like this:
"And in this hideous despair,
Where was a man, nay a God
Who cared?"

In celebration, I've rented you your own personal orchestra.

And earlier in the poem we have this :
"All spoke of the tortures of hell
But no one mentioned the boredom of heaven"

IF Augustine and Calvin were right: Sure! Sand me to hell! I rather be there than worshipping their Tyrant in heaven. But send me there ALONE. NO one else should suffer because of the fate of being born.

How very popular you would have been among wealthy college-boys of the 1890s.

Has it ever occurred to you that you curse the wonderful life you revel in, with all this? You, wrapped in sunshine, filled with good things, held up by strong bones and tendons, surrounded by variety and beauty, with a mind to enjoy it all.
Before God turns up and curses me for enjoying my life? No not even that! Cursing me because I was Born and created. Cursing me just because he created me only for the purpose of cursing and torturing me after death? How can I then possibly enjoy life, with the terrors not only of this life but of eternal hell after this life as well constantly behind my back, constantly torturing my mind? Looking around me seeing all these happy People, not being aware of that they are just here in order to be infinitely tortured? Would you enjoy such a life?

Oh yes he has cursed you so. Cursed you with an extra helping of dinner today, if I don't miss my guess.
Mock me all you want. Good night.

"He giveth his beloved sleep" (Psalmist).
Well Then Maybe suicide is the Only solution if I am forced to thank him because I must sleep in order to not fall asleep at work. I will continue to consider it. Maybe it is possible btw to question "Creation ex nihilo"? I suggest that freedom is prior to being.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 07:48:21 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,419
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #114 on: June 11, 2017, 07:49:47 PM »
I have written a poem that ends like this:
"And in this hideous despair,
Where was a man, nay a God
Who cared?"

In celebration, I've rented you your own personal orchestra.

And earlier in the poem we have this :
"All spoke of the tortures of hell
But no one mentioned the boredom of heaven"

IF Augustine and Calvin were right: Sure! Sand me to hell! I rather be there than worshipping their Tyrant in heaven. But send me there ALONE. NO one else should suffer because of the fate of being born.

How very popular you would have been among wealthy college-boys of the 1890s.

Has it ever occurred to you that you curse the wonderful life you revel in, with all this? You, wrapped in sunshine, filled with good things, held up by strong bones and tendons, surrounded by variety and beauty, with a mind to enjoy it all.
Before God turns up and curses me for enjoying my life? No not even that! Cursing me because I was Born and created. Cursing me just because he created me only for the purpose of cursing and torturing me after death? How can I then possibly enjoy life, with the terrors not only of this life but of eternal hell after this life as well constantly behind my back, constantly torturing my mind? Looking around me seeing all these happy People, not being aware of that they are just here in order to be infinitely tortured? Would you enjoy such a life?

Oh yes he has cursed you so. Cursed you with an extra helping of dinner today, if I don't miss my guess.
Mock me all you want. Good night.

"He giveth his beloved sleep" (Psalmist).
Well Then Maybe suicide is the Only solution if I am forced to thank him because I must sleep in order to not fall asleep at work.

He also gives us work. Cf. "And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work." And many more.

Quote
I will continue to consider it. Maybe it is possible btw to question "Creation ex nihilo"? I suggest that freedom is prior to being.

Wow what a breakthrough! You chose your being freely, according to you. Now you really can relax and get that rest.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,106
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #115 on: June 11, 2017, 07:51:10 PM »
I just Believe that Paul was not infallible, that he in fact made some mistakes about God even in the letters.

Don't blaspheme against the Holy Spirit now, I hear that comes with an Extra Value™ penalty.
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #116 on: June 11, 2017, 07:55:32 PM »
I just Believe that Paul was not infallible, that he in fact made some mistakes about God even in the letters.

Don't blaspheme against the Holy Spirit now, I hear that comes with an Extra Value™ penalty.
What? Is it blasphemy against the holy spirit to say that Paul might have not been infallible? Oh my. I am certainly doomed. Now I questioned Romans 9 and will never be forgiven. Ever. What a loving and forgiving father. What is left for me now but suicide? Please tell me. Why make God's holy planet dirty with my unforgivable feet?
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 07:58:41 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #117 on: June 11, 2017, 08:00:38 PM »
I have written a poem that ends like this:
"And in this hideous despair,
Where was a man, nay a God
Who cared?"

In celebration, I've rented you your own personal orchestra.

And earlier in the poem we have this :
"All spoke of the tortures of hell
But no one mentioned the boredom of heaven"

IF Augustine and Calvin were right: Sure! Sand me to hell! I rather be there than worshipping their Tyrant in heaven. But send me there ALONE. NO one else should suffer because of the fate of being born.

How very popular you would have been among wealthy college-boys of the 1890s.

Has it ever occurred to you that you curse the wonderful life you revel in, with all this? You, wrapped in sunshine, filled with good things, held up by strong bones and tendons, surrounded by variety and beauty, with a mind to enjoy it all.
Before God turns up and curses me for enjoying my life? No not even that! Cursing me because I was Born and created. Cursing me just because he created me only for the purpose of cursing and torturing me after death? How can I then possibly enjoy life, with the terrors not only of this life but of eternal hell after this life as well constantly behind my back, constantly torturing my mind? Looking around me seeing all these happy People, not being aware of that they are just here in order to be infinitely tortured? Would you enjoy such a life?

Oh yes he has cursed you so. Cursed you with an extra helping of dinner today, if I don't miss my guess.
Mock me all you want. Good night.

"He giveth his beloved sleep" (Psalmist).
Well Then Maybe suicide is the Only solution if I am forced to thank him because I must sleep in order to not fall asleep at work.

He also gives us work. Cf. "And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work." And many more.

Quote
I will continue to consider it. Maybe it is possible btw to question "Creation ex nihilo"? I suggest that freedom is prior to being.

Wow what a breakthrough! You chose your being freely, according to you. Now you really can relax and get that rest.
No. Freedom is prior to being. God didnt create freedom. That is what I mean. I know God gave me Everything. But are you missing the content?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,419
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #118 on: June 11, 2017, 08:04:06 PM »
I just Believe that Paul was not infallible, that he in fact made some mistakes about God even in the letters.

Don't blaspheme against the Holy Spirit now, I hear that comes with an Extra Value™ penalty.
What? Is it blasphemy against the holy spirit to say that Paul might have not been infallible? Oh my. I am certainly doomed. Now I questioned Romans 9 and will never be forgiven. Ever. What a loving and forgiving father. What is left for me now but suicide? Please tell me. Why make God's holy planet dirty with my unforgivable feet?

Or how about do the usual misotheist thing and curse God through mouthfuls of excellent breakfast till you get old enough to lose your teeth?

But, yes, he is a "loving and forgiving father." He loves and forgives you. Most likely, you will continue to have many years in which to choose to accept and enjoy that, along with all the outer gifts from him you enjoy every day.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,106
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #119 on: June 11, 2017, 08:04:12 PM »
I just Believe that Paul was not infallible, that he in fact made some mistakes about God even in the letters.

Don't blaspheme against the Holy Spirit now, I hear that comes with an Extra Value™ penalty.
What? Is it blasphemy against the holy spirit to say that Paul might have not been infallible? Oh my. I am certainly doomed. Now I questioned Romans 9 and will never be forgiven. Ever. What a loving and forgiving father. What is left for me now but suicide? Please tell me. Why make God's holy planet dirty with my unforgivable feet?

To say that St Paul was not infallible is not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, it's common sense.  To say that St Paul made mistakes about God in the letters we have in the NT, on the other hand, approaches the line if not crossing it and running around like a madman who scored the winning goal.   

If you don't want to be a Christian, don't.  But you should still see a physician. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Sharbel

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 508
  • Faith: Catechumen
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #120 on: June 11, 2017, 08:05:27 PM »
What?...

Weren't you supposed to be sleeping over an hour ago?  ???   

This thread cannot possibly be a good idea before tucking yourself in bed.  :)
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 08:14:03 PM by Sharbel »
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ!

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #121 on: June 11, 2017, 08:11:12 PM »
I just Believe that Paul was not infallible, that he in fact made some mistakes about God even in the letters.

Don't blaspheme against the Holy Spirit now, I hear that comes with an Extra Value™ penalty.
What? Is it blasphemy against the holy spirit to say that Paul might have not been infallible? Oh my. I am certainly doomed. Now I questioned Romans 9 and will never be forgiven. Ever. What a loving and forgiving father. What is left for me now but suicide? Please tell me. Why make God's holy planet dirty with my unforgivable feet?

To say that St Paul was not infallible is not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, it's common sense.  To say that St Paul made mistakes about God in the letters we have in the NT, on the other hand, approaches the line if not crossing it and running around like a madman who scored the winning goal.   

If you don't want to be a Christian, don't.  But you should still see a physician.
So it is unforgivable to suggest that Paul perhaps made a mistake? Why? Doesn"t even Paul himself btw har the Word "perhaps" in Romans 9 before speaking about How God wants to show his anger in the vessels of wrath, as if he is saying that he just speculates? How about Augustine? If Augustine was right, is it not an unforgivable sin to suggest he wasn't? If a Christian isn't orthodox but orthodoxy has infallible theology, is it unforgivable then to not be in the orthodox church? Then aren't all protestants and catholics going to hell?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Rohzek

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,013
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #122 on: June 11, 2017, 08:28:05 PM »
Everyone! For now:









It's just not worth. Give it time.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 08:34:55 PM by Rohzek »
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,419
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #123 on: June 11, 2017, 08:59:10 PM »
We love you, Beebert. Sleep well.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,419
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #124 on: June 11, 2017, 10:03:04 PM »
Which God have I insulted? I highly doubt that Most Christians Believe in the true God. I think Most people Believe in a God of their own imagination, which they then use to terrorise others. That is the God I have experienced and despise. To rebell against a false Tyrant God must be a righteous thing. I admire Nietzsche for ranting against protestant and catholic psychological terrorists.
I would disagree with you here. I think that most Christians believe in, and have experienced, the true God, but the accuracy of their understanding of him varies considerably. The question then is how can we grow in a correct understanding, while continuing to experience Him in truth. And the answer to that is in the Church - both through her teaching, and through meeting Christ in the Sacrament. These are precious gifts that the Lord has given us. Far better to focus your energy here, than on reading things that, at least for now, will only add to your distress.
You know... Augustine claimed that most people take the sacraments in vain: it doesnt help them. Either they are "elected" or "damned" without any choice of their own. How the Church has accepted this man and Justinian (!) as Saints but not Origen (!!!) is beyond me. Did the crusaders and the Ones behind the inquisition believe in the true God? Or did they Perhaps mistake the devil as being God?

That's your interpretation. A more useful understanding of election doesn't divorce it from free will. As eternity is to time, so predestination is to freedom of the will -- complements that appear opposed under mortal scrutiny -- paradoxes, as are all the largest truths.
And what is the paradox? Man creates a paradox where there is none.  When the orthodox church officially opposed calvinism they said that there is indeed predestination, but that this predestination is based om foreknowledge! Foreknowledge of the perdition of one person because of that person's misused freedom predestined him to hell before the foundation of the world! And yet, God created the world! He, eternal love, willed the world to come in to existence despite the misused freedom and eternal suffering of many! What God foreknows, he also wills. There is no paradox. All traditional thought inevitably leads to the same conclusion. Though some denies it. And others call it freedom of the Will. Unless you say that God has no power over freedom and that freedom is uncreated?

The intersection of God and Man is infinitely problematic to understand. Eternity and time, infinity and number, first-cause and will are only a few examples. Thus the absolute intellectual and practical necessity for Christ, the Godman. There is no "word" to explain the problems, only the Word; to put it in plainer English: there is no answer, only the Answer. Modern Judaism transfers the problem, Islam forbids it. Christianity embodies it. The intellectual answer to the unanswerable problems is to lift the gaze to contemplate Christ -- "And I, if I be lifted up, shall draw all men after me." The practical answer is to join to Christ -- "I am the vine; ye are the branches." "Grow up into him in all things, which is the head" -- we are the body. To join to Christ as his body is not a glamorous work: "For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, 'Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body'; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, 'Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body'; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, 'I have no need of thee': nor again the head to the feet, 'I have no need of you.' Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: and those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable -- upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked." That is, some are fore-ordained for one life, some for another, and of these lives some are indeed full of difficulty or ugliness or humiliation. But it is a work of salvation: "And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it." By this we ultimately ourselves become the answer to the great problem of God and Man, because by it we don eternity, infinity, and godhood.

If we properly view the nature of Man, we will not know how we could be saved. If we properly view the nature of God, we will not know how we could be lost. Another take on the infinite problem and paradox.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 10:09:05 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,999
  • Pray for me Sts. Mina & Kyrillos for my interviews
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #125 on: June 11, 2017, 10:47:06 PM »
I just Believe that Paul was not infallible, that he in fact made some mistakes about God even in the letters.

Don't blaspheme against the Holy Spirit now, I hear that comes with an Extra Value™ penalty.
What? Is it blasphemy against the holy spirit to say that Paul might have not been infallible? Oh my. I am certainly doomed. Now I questioned Romans 9 and will never be forgiven. Ever. What a loving and forgiving father. What is left for me now but suicide? Please tell me. Why make God's holy planet dirty with my unforgivable feet?

To say that St Paul was not infallible is not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, it's common sense.  To say that St Paul made mistakes about God in the letters we have in the NT, on the other hand, approaches the line if not crossing it and running around like a madman who scored the winning goal.   

If you don't want to be a Christian, don't.  But you should still see a physician.
So it is unforgivable to suggest that Paul perhaps made a mistake? Why? Doesn"t even Paul himself btw har the Word "perhaps" in Romans 9 before speaking about How God wants to show his anger in the vessels of wrath, as if he is saying that he just speculates? How about Augustine? If Augustine was right, is it not an unforgivable sin to suggest he wasn't? If a Christian isn't orthodox but orthodoxy has infallible theology, is it unforgivable then to not be in the orthodox church? Then aren't all protestants and catholics going to hell?

+1000

Beebert, take a break.  I think there has been quite a great deal of patience with you.  It's one thing to criticize the writings of a father, but I don't accept that you call that father a heretic, especially one who is canonized a saint.

However you cross a line when canonized Scripture also becomes questioned and heretical in your terms, and that in itself is something that shows you really have yet to grasp good Christian teaching with a healthy mind.  You still seem to take your intellect into a level of hyper-emotional reaction that presents you in an irrational light.

So...

Take a break brother and tread carefully.  God bless.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #126 on: June 12, 2017, 12:45:37 AM »
Which God have I insulted? I highly doubt that Most Christians Believe in the true God. I think Most people Believe in a God of their own imagination, which they then use to terrorise others. That is the God I have experienced and despise. To rebell against a false Tyrant God must be a righteous thing. I admire Nietzsche for ranting against protestant and catholic psychological terrorists.
I would disagree with you here. I think that most Christians believe in, and have experienced, the true God, but the accuracy of their understanding of him varies considerably. The question then is how can we grow in a correct understanding, while continuing to experience Him in truth. And the answer to that is in the Church - both through her teaching, and through meeting Christ in the Sacrament. These are precious gifts that the Lord has given us. Far better to focus your energy here, than on reading things that, at least for now, will only add to your distress.
You know... Augustine claimed that most people take the sacraments in vain: it doesnt help them. Either they are "elected" or "damned" without any choice of their own. How the Church has accepted this man and Justinian (!) as Saints but not Origen (!!!) is beyond me. Did the crusaders and the Ones behind the inquisition believe in the true God? Or did they Perhaps mistake the devil as being God?

That's your interpretation. A more useful understanding of election doesn't divorce it from free will. As eternity is to time, so predestination is to freedom of the will -- complements that appear opposed under mortal scrutiny -- paradoxes, as are all the largest truths.
And what is the paradox? Man creates a paradox where there is none.  When the orthodox church officially opposed calvinism they said that there is indeed predestination, but that this predestination is based om foreknowledge! Foreknowledge of the perdition of one person because of that person's misused freedom predestined him to hell before the foundation of the world! And yet, God created the world! He, eternal love, willed the world to come in to existence despite the misused freedom and eternal suffering of many! What God foreknows, he also wills. There is no paradox. All traditional thought inevitably leads to the same conclusion. Though some denies it. And others call it freedom of the Will. Unless you say that God has no power over freedom and that freedom is uncreated?

The intersection of God and Man is infinitely problematic to understand. Eternity and time, infinity and number, first-cause and will are only a few examples. Thus the absolute intellectual and practical necessity for Christ, the Godman. There is no "word" to explain the problems, only the Word; to put it in plainer English: there is no answer, only the Answer. Modern Judaism transfers the problem, Islam forbids it. Christianity embodies it. The intellectual answer to the unanswerable problems is to lift the gaze to contemplate Christ -- "And I, if I be lifted up, shall draw all men after me." The practical answer is to join to Christ -- "I am the vine; ye are the branches." "Grow up into him in all things, which is the head" -- we are the body. To join to Christ as his body is not a glamorous work: "For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, 'Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body'; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, 'Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body'; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, 'I have no need of thee': nor again the head to the feet, 'I have no need of you.' Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: and those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable -- upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked." That is, some are fore-ordained for one life, some for another, and of these lives some are indeed full of difficulty or ugliness or humiliation. But it is a work of salvation: "And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it." By this we ultimately ourselves become the answer to the great problem of God and Man, because by it we don eternity, infinity, and godhood.

If we properly view the nature of Man, we will not know how we could be saved. If we properly view the nature of God, we will not know how we could be lost. Another take on the infinite problem and paradox.
So basically what is said, if I understand it correctly, is that from God's Point of view, where time does not exist, those who misuses their freedom and perish have done so from etenity, that is, there has been no point in where I actually sinned against God, I have sinned against him and been headed towards hell from eternity? I have, that is, eternally sinned against God, there is no point in God's view, where I actually haven't sinned against him? The fact that I am a sinner headed towards destruction, is as eternally true and a part of God's truth and eternity as eternity itself, if you know what I mean? My personal problem isnt that some People live harder Lives than others. Though innocent suffering is hard to understand. And I don't want to reconcile with John Piper's idea that "There are no innocent children ".
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 12:59:47 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #127 on: June 12, 2017, 01:06:14 AM »
I just Believe that Paul was not infallible, that he in fact made some mistakes about God even in the letters.

Don't blaspheme against the Holy Spirit now, I hear that comes with an Extra Value™ penalty.
What? Is it blasphemy against the holy spirit to say that Paul might have not been infallible? Oh my. I am certainly doomed. Now I questioned Romans 9 and will never be forgiven. Ever. What a loving and forgiving father. What is left for me now but suicide? Please tell me. Why make God's holy planet dirty with my unforgivable feet?

To say that St Paul was not infallible is not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, it's common sense.  To say that St Paul made mistakes about God in the letters we have in the NT, on the other hand, approaches the line if not crossing it and running around like a madman who scored the winning goal.   

If you don't want to be a Christian, don't.  But you should still see a physician.
So it is unforgivable to suggest that Paul perhaps made a mistake? Why? Doesn"t even Paul himself btw har the Word "perhaps" in Romans 9 before speaking about How God wants to show his anger in the vessels of wrath, as if he is saying that he just speculates? How about Augustine? If Augustine was right, is it not an unforgivable sin to suggest he wasn't? If a Christian isn't orthodox but orthodoxy has infallible theology, is it unforgivable then to not be in the orthodox church? Then aren't all protestants and catholics going to hell?

+1000

Beebert, take a break.  I think there has been quite a great deal of patience with you.  It's one thing to criticize the writings of a father, but I don't accept that you call that father a heretic, especially one who is canonized a saint.

However you cross a line when canonized Scripture also becomes questioned and heretical in your terms, and that in itself is something that shows you really have yet to grasp good Christian teaching with a healthy mind.  You still seem to take your intellect into a level of hyper-emotional reaction that presents you in an irrational light.

So...

Take a break brother and tread carefully.  God bless.
Okay I apologize for my ranting and if I might have offended someone. Really I apologize. I probably need more mental help. But I wouldnt call Paul a heretic. Though as honestly as I can, With my hand to my chest, I can not believe that Paul meant anything else than what Augustine and Calvin  claimed that he meant. And if that is what Paul meant; I have a problem accepting it. I know orthodoxy says Paul means something else, I would love it if that is true. But I just can't believe it. And all traditional interpretations of the words "all-powerful", and "all-knowing" leads to this conclusion. They all lead to the same conclusion. It seems to me that Calvin's double predestination is the inevitable consequence of traditional thought...

I never said as far as I recall that Augustine was a heretic either. But his ideas (which are grounded in scripture) give rise to some serious problems. And I am not sure I can with a Good conscience agree with the church and say that Justinian is and was a saint and Origen wasn't...
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 01:10:26 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline mcarmichael

  • Novice
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,610
  • No cocaine.
  • Faith: Christian
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #128 on: June 12, 2017, 02:19:47 AM »
No comment.
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #129 on: June 12, 2017, 10:29:48 AM »
Let me just ask and see if I have understood Augustine correctly:

Based on my understanding of Auguestine’s dogma of Predestination, it is connected with another dogma, namely, that the mass of humanity is corrupt and doomed to eternal damnation, that very few will be found righteous and attain salvation, and that only in consequence of the gift of grace, and because they are predestined to be saved; whilst the remainder will be overwhelmed by the perdition they have deserved, eternal torment in hell. Taken in its ordinary meaning, the dogma is revolting, for it comes to this: it condemns a man, who may be, perhaps, scarcely twenty years of age, to expiate his errors, or even his unbelief, in everlasting torment; nay, more, it makes this almost universal damnation the natural effect of original sin, and therefore the necessary consequence of the Fall. This is a result which must have been foreseen by him who made mankind, and who, in the first place, made them not better than they are, and secondly, indirectly set a trap for them into which he must have known they would fall; for he made the whole world, and nothing is hidden from him. And he is all-powerful. According to this doctrine, then, God created out of nothing a weak race prone to sin, in order to give them over to endless torment. And, as a last characteristic, we are told that this God, who prescribes forbearance and forgiveness of every fault, exercises none himself, but does the exact opposite; for a punishment which comes at the end of all things, when the world is over and done with, cannot have for its object either to improve or deter, and is therefore pure vengeance. So that, on this view, the whole race is actually destined to eternal torture and damnation, and created expressly for this end, the only exception being those few persons who are rescued by election of grace, from what motive one does not know.
Putting these aside, it looks as if the Blessed Lord had created the world for the benefit of the devil! If this is what Augustine believed, it seems like it would have been so much better not to have made the world at all. Is there anything herr that I have missunderstood, or is this the western Christian view that follows the augustian line of thought? I would Love to read what you think about this and if I have understood it wrongly. If I have, please Tell me in what way, and also in what way orthodoxy is different.

Take, for example, the case as Augustine states it generally in the The City of God, Book 12 chapter 21. It comes to this: God creates a being out of nothing, forbids him some things, and enjoins others upon him; and because these commands are not obeyed, he tortures him to all eternity with every conceivable anguish; and for this purpose, binds soul and body inseparably together, so that, instead, of the torment destroying this being by splitting him up into his elements, and so setting him free, he may live to eternal pain. This poor creature, formed out of nothing! At least, he has a claim on his original nothing: he should be assured, as a matter of right, of this last retreat, which, in any case, cannot be a very evil one: it is what he has inherited. I, at any rate, cannot help sympathizing with him. If you add to this Augustine’s remaining doctrines, that all this does not depend on the man’s own sins and omissions, but was already predestined to happen, one really is at a loss what to think...
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 10:36:58 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,106
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #130 on: June 12, 2017, 11:22:13 AM »
I just Believe that Paul was not infallible, that he in fact made some mistakes about God even in the letters.

Don't blaspheme against the Holy Spirit now, I hear that comes with an Extra Value™ penalty.
What? Is it blasphemy against the holy spirit to say that Paul might have not been infallible? Oh my. I am certainly doomed. Now I questioned Romans 9 and will never be forgiven. Ever. What a loving and forgiving father. What is left for me now but suicide? Please tell me. Why make God's holy planet dirty with my unforgivable feet?

To say that St Paul was not infallible is not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, it's common sense.  To say that St Paul made mistakes about God in the letters we have in the NT, on the other hand, approaches the line if not crossing it and running around like a madman who scored the winning goal.   

If you don't want to be a Christian, don't.  But you should still see a physician.
So it is unforgivable to suggest that Paul perhaps made a mistake? Why? Doesn"t even Paul himself btw har the Word "perhaps" in Romans 9 before speaking about How God wants to show his anger in the vessels of wrath, as if he is saying that he just speculates? How about Augustine? If Augustine was right, is it not an unforgivable sin to suggest he wasn't? If a Christian isn't orthodox but orthodoxy has infallible theology, is it unforgivable then to not be in the orthodox church? Then aren't all protestants and catholics going to hell?

+1000

Beebert, take a break.  I think there has been quite a great deal of patience with you.  It's one thing to criticize the writings of a father, but I don't accept that you call that father a heretic, especially one who is canonized a saint.

However you cross a line when canonized Scripture also becomes questioned and heretical in your terms, and that in itself is something that shows you really have yet to grasp good Christian teaching with a healthy mind.  You still seem to take your intellect into a level of hyper-emotional reaction that presents you in an irrational light.

So...

Take a break brother and tread carefully.  God bless.
Okay I apologize for my ranting and if I might have offended someone. Really I apologize. I probably need more mental help. But I wouldnt call Paul a heretic. Though as honestly as I can, With my hand to my chest, I can not believe that Paul meant anything else than what Augustine and Calvin  claimed that he meant. And if that is what Paul meant; I have a problem accepting it. I know orthodoxy says Paul means something else, I would love it if that is true. But I just can't believe it. And all traditional interpretations of the words "all-powerful", and "all-knowing" leads to this conclusion. They all lead to the same conclusion. It seems to me that Calvin's double predestination is the inevitable consequence of traditional thought...

I never said as far as I recall that Augustine was a heretic either. But his ideas (which are grounded in scripture) give rise to some serious problems. And I am not sure I can with a Good conscience agree with the church and say that Justinian is and was a saint and Origen wasn't...

No matter how much you denounce Calvinism from time to time, it's the one non-negotiable that consistently remains so in your thought.  Even when Scripture is up for grabs, Calvin is sacrosanct. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #131 on: June 12, 2017, 11:39:18 AM »
I just Believe that Paul was not infallible, that he in fact made some mistakes about God even in the letters.

Don't blaspheme against the Holy Spirit now, I hear that comes with an Extra Value™ penalty.
What? Is it blasphemy against the holy spirit to say that Paul might have not been infallible? Oh my. I am certainly doomed. Now I questioned Romans 9 and will never be forgiven. Ever. What a loving and forgiving father. What is left for me now but suicide? Please tell me. Why make God's holy planet dirty with my unforgivable feet?

To say that St Paul was not infallible is not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, it's common sense.  To say that St Paul made mistakes about God in the letters we have in the NT, on the other hand, approaches the line if not crossing it and running around like a madman who scored the winning goal.   

If you don't want to be a Christian, don't.  But you should still see a physician.
So it is unforgivable to suggest that Paul perhaps made a mistake? Why? Doesn"t even Paul himself btw har the Word "perhaps" in Romans 9 before speaking about How God wants to show his anger in the vessels of wrath, as if he is saying that he just speculates? How about Augustine? If Augustine was right, is it not an unforgivable sin to suggest he wasn't? If a Christian isn't orthodox but orthodoxy has infallible theology, is it unforgivable then to not be in the orthodox church? Then aren't all protestants and catholics going to hell?

+1000

Beebert, take a break.  I think there has been quite a great deal of patience with you.  It's one thing to criticize the writings of a father, but I don't accept that you call that father a heretic, especially one who is canonized a saint.

However you cross a line when canonized Scripture also becomes questioned and heretical in your terms, and that in itself is something that shows you really have yet to grasp good Christian teaching with a healthy mind.  You still seem to take your intellect into a level of hyper-emotional reaction that presents you in an irrational light.

So...

Take a break brother and tread carefully.  God bless.
Okay I apologize for my ranting and if I might have offended someone. Really I apologize. I probably need more mental help. But I wouldnt call Paul a heretic. Though as honestly as I can, With my hand to my chest, I can not believe that Paul meant anything else than what Augustine and Calvin  claimed that he meant. And if that is what Paul meant; I have a problem accepting it. I know orthodoxy says Paul means something else, I would love it if that is true. But I just can't believe it. And all traditional interpretations of the words "all-powerful", and "all-knowing" leads to this conclusion. They all lead to the same conclusion. It seems to me that Calvin's double predestination is the inevitable consequence of traditional thought...

I never said as far as I recall that Augustine was a heretic either. But his ideas (which are grounded in scripture) give rise to some serious problems. And I am not sure I can with a Good conscience agree with the church and say that Justinian is and was a saint and Origen wasn't...

No matter how much you denounce Calvinism from time to time, it's the one non-negotiable that consistently remains so in your thought.  Even when Scripture is up for grabs, Calvin is sacrosanct.
In the post above the one you just made, I have a clear view of the Augustinian theology and Its consequences. I would Love it if you could provide me an orthodox answer to those problems, where orthodoxy differ. Because I haven't quite understood it...
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,106
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #132 on: June 12, 2017, 11:55:35 AM »
In the post above the one you just made, I have a clear view of the Augustinian theology and Its consequences. I would Love it if you could provide me an orthodox answer to those problems, where orthodoxy differ. Because I haven't quite understood it...

Evidently.  For starters, you're misusing the word "dogma". 

Look, none of this is going to help you.  Even if I offer a line by line response to your post, you're in no condition to hear it. 

You would do much better if you would read the Gospel of John from beginning to end, and then do it again, and continue to repeat this reading of the entire Gospel for a year.  Don't read anything else for the whole year.  Just John. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

  • "SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,130
  • Trolling Babylon 24/7, without apology!
    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?ref=profile&id=1456515775
  • Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #133 on: June 12, 2017, 12:01:57 PM »
I don't think St. Augustine has a poor view of God, but rather a poor view of humanity.
Good remark.

Are they not inseparable?


Selam
"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."
+ Gebre Menfes Kidus +
http://bookstore.authorhouse.com/Products/SKU-000984270/Rebel-Song.aspx

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #134 on: June 12, 2017, 12:25:30 PM »
In the post above the one you just made, I have a clear view of the Augustinian theology and Its consequences. I would Love it if you could provide me an orthodox answer to those problems, where orthodoxy differ. Because I haven't quite understood it...

Evidently.  For starters, you're misusing the word "dogma". 

Look, none of this is going to help you.  Even if I offer a line by line response to your post, you're in no condition to hear it. 

You would do much better if you would read the Gospel of John from beginning to end, and then do it again, and continue to repeat this reading of the entire Gospel for a year.  Don't read anything else for the whole year.  Just John.
Nothing Else from the whole bible?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)