Author Topic: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?  (Read 6587 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,560
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #180 on: June 14, 2017, 09:08:23 AM »
And if God foresaw eternal hell from all eternity he indirectly created it. That seems blasphemous to me. It is a massive problem.

Do you mean why God created evil people if he foreknows that they will be evil and inherit eternal death?
That is one of the things I wonder yes. Do you have an answer?

Our holy Father, saint John of Damascus said a lot of things about evil and hell. That is why God created even evil people:
"God in His goodness brought what exists into being out of nothing, and has foreknowledge of what will exist in the future. If, therefore, they were not to exist in the future, they would neither be evil in the future nor would they be foreknown. For knowledge is of what exists and foreknowledge is of what will surely exist in the future. For simple being comes first and then good or evil being. But if the very existence of those, who through the goodness of God are in the future to exist, were to be prevented by the fact that they were to become evil of their own choice, evil would have prevailed over the goodness of God. Wherefore God makes all His works good, but each becomes of its own choice good or evil. Although, then, the Lord said, Goad were it for that man that he had never been barn, He said it in condemnation not of His own creation but of the evil which His own creation had acquired by his own choice and through his own heedlessness. For the heedlessness that marks man's judgment made His Creator's beneficence of no profit to him. It is just as if any one, when he had obtained riches and dominion from a king, were to lord it over his benefactor, who, when he has worsted him, will punish him as he deserves, if he should see him keeping hold of the sovereignty to the end."
Exact exposition of the orthodox faith, Book 4, Chapter 21
That doesnt really solve the problem nor answer my question in depth. Only Dostoevsky has been capable of that as far as I know. The problem of hell remains unfortunately...
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,708
  • Pray for me Sts. Mina & Kyrillos for my interviews
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #181 on: June 14, 2017, 09:08:50 AM »
Suit yourself Beebert.  You obviously consider yourself smart enough that you do not know whether God created you or not.  You be the judge of how stupid that sounds.
Oh my... Is it impossible for people to understand what I am saying? I DO BELIEVE God created me.

Good!  Was that so hard?  You see how you did not have to write anymore than 6 words for that.

Now...next question.  THIS IS NOT A TRICK QUESTION.  Is God ALONE your creator, emphasis on the word "ALONE"?
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,560
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #182 on: June 14, 2017, 09:15:20 AM »
Suit yourself Beebert.  You obviously consider yourself smart enough that you do not know whether God created you or not.  You be the judge of how stupid that sounds.
Oh my... Is it impossible for people to understand what I am saying? I DO BELIEVE God created me.

Good!  Was that so hard?  You see how you did not have to write anymore than 6 words for that.

Now...next question.  THIS IS NOT A TRICK QUESTION.  Is God ALONE your creator, emphasis on the word "ALONE"?
Yes. He created ME. MY PERSON. But NOT my freedom.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,708
  • Pray for me Sts. Mina & Kyrillos for my interviews
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #183 on: June 14, 2017, 09:16:30 AM »
Suit yourself Beebert.  You obviously consider yourself smart enough that you do not know whether God created you or not.  You be the judge of how stupid that sounds.
Oh my... Is it impossible for people to understand what I am saying? I DO BELIEVE God created me.

Good!  Was that so hard?  You see how you did not have to write anymore than 6 words for that.

Now...next question.  THIS IS NOT A TRICK QUESTION.  Is God ALONE your creator, emphasis on the word "ALONE"?
Yes. He created ME. MY PERSON. But NOT my freedom.

How sad.  God is therefore not your sole creator.  Therefore, deep down you believe God doesn't truly love you and you can't truly love Him completely.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 09:16:44 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,560
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #184 on: June 14, 2017, 09:18:21 AM »
"For the secret of man's being is not only to live but to have something to live for . . . Instead of taking men's freedom from them, Thou didst make it greater than ever! Didst Thou forget that man prefers peace, and even death, to the freedom of choice in the knowledge of good and evil? . . . So that, in truth, thou didst Thyself lay the foundation for the destruction of Thy kingdom, and no one is more to blame for it". This is Dostoevsky's first accusation towards Christ through the Grand Inquisitor. And Christ replies how? Not by condemning him, but by kissing him. This is the view of Christ I accept and could be able to love if I let it win.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,560
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #185 on: June 14, 2017, 09:21:59 AM »
Suit yourself Beebert.  You obviously consider yourself smart enough that you do not know whether God created you or not.  You be the judge of how stupid that sounds.
Oh my... Is it impossible for people to understand what I am saying? I DO BELIEVE God created me.

Good!  Was that so hard?  You see how you did not have to write anymore than 6 words for that.

Now...next question.  THIS IS NOT A TRICK QUESTION.  Is God ALONE your creator, emphasis on the word "ALONE"?
Yes. He created ME. MY PERSON. But NOT my freedom.

How sad.  God is therefore not your sole creator.  Therefore, deep down you believe God doesn't truly love you and you can't truly love Him completely.
It is the only way I can see it without it making sound like God is responsible for teh eternal suffering of many. And I consider even one person to be many.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,708
  • Pray for me Sts. Mina & Kyrillos for my interviews
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #186 on: June 14, 2017, 09:22:50 AM »
You misunderstand the point of Dostoevsky.  Yes, He created you free, even free choice, in order that you choose GREATER FREEDOM than merely knowledge.  I believe He ALONE created ALL OF ME, including my free choice.  Because true freedom lies in the nature of God, he contrasts free choice from freedom from the shackles of my limitations, but that doesn't mean He did not create your free choice.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,560
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #187 on: June 14, 2017, 09:23:01 AM »
Suit yourself Beebert.  You obviously consider yourself smart enough that you do not know whether God created you or not.  You be the judge of how stupid that sounds.
Oh my... Is it impossible for people to understand what I am saying? I DO BELIEVE God created me.

Good!  Was that so hard?  You see how you did not have to write anymore than 6 words for that.

Now...next question.  THIS IS NOT A TRICK QUESTION.  Is God ALONE your creator, emphasis on the word "ALONE"?
Yes. He created ME. MY PERSON. But NOT my freedom.

How sad.  God is therefore not your sole creator.  Therefore, deep down you believe God doesn't truly love you and you can't truly love Him completely.
So what about hell? Did God foreknew everyone's eternal destiny before the foundatio of the world?

« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 09:24:38 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,560
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #188 on: June 14, 2017, 09:25:23 AM »
You misunderstand the point of Dostoevsky.  Yes, He created you free, even free choice, in order that you choose GREATER FREEDOM than merely knowledge.  I believe He ALONE created ALL OF ME, including my free choice.  Because true freedom lies in the nature of God, he contrasts free choice from freedom from the shackles of my limitations, but that doesn't mean He did not create your free choice.
So what about hell? Did God foreknew everyone's eternal destiny before the foundation of the world?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 09:27:02 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,708
  • Pray for me Sts. Mina & Kyrillos for my interviews
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #189 on: June 14, 2017, 09:32:21 AM »
You ask the wrong question.  You claim, like Dostoevsky to want to have peace with God rather than knowledge, and yet you desire mere knowledge of something you are incapable of handling, and frankly not important in the discussion.

At this stage in your life, learn to be like the man born blind.  Whether or not God foreknows my destiny, I do not know.  But I know one thing, that once I did not exist, but now I exist (cf. John 9:25).

It really does not matter.  God is love, and I exist because He loves me.  And He loves me so much, He gave me His Son, His Life through His suffering Son.  That's all I need.  That's all that matters in my small tiny limited mind.  I was given the capability to know my Creator and to know My Only True Love.  No need to complicate the matter, and no need to make silly (YES SILLY) assumptions based on the omniscience of God.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,560
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #190 on: June 14, 2017, 09:38:06 AM »
You ask the wrong question.  You claim, like Dostoevsky to want to have peace with God rather than knowledge, and yet you desire mere knowledge of something you are incapable of handling, and frankly not important in the discussion.

At this stage in your life, learn to be like the man born blind.  Whether or not God foreknows my destiny, I do not know.  But I know one thing, that once I did not exist, but now I exist (cf. John 9:25).

It really does not matter.  God is love, and I exist because He loves me.  And He loves me so much, He gave me His Son, His Life through His suffering Son.  That's all I need.  That's all that matters in my small tiny limited mind.  I was given the capability to know my Creator and to know My Only True Love.  No need to complicate the matter, and no need to make silly (YES SILLY) assumptions based on the omniscience of God.
What you say is all I need to, and I thank you for your very fine answer. Though the difference between us is that after having read the bible twice, and prayed a lot for a long time for knowledge of the truth, I can't come to believe that what you are saying is true... Even if I wish it to be true, just as I wish for Dostoevsky's Christ to be true... But in the bible and in my prayers, I come always to see and believe in a God whose love is very exclusive...
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,708
  • Pray for me Sts. Mina & Kyrillos for my interviews
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #191 on: June 14, 2017, 09:40:13 AM »
You ask the wrong question.  You claim, like Dostoevsky to want to have peace with God rather than knowledge, and yet you desire mere knowledge of something you are incapable of handling, and frankly not important in the discussion.

At this stage in your life, learn to be like the man born blind.  Whether or not God foreknows my destiny, I do not know.  But I know one thing, that once I did not exist, but now I exist (cf. John 9:25).

It really does not matter.  God is love, and I exist because He loves me.  And He loves me so much, He gave me His Son, His Life through His suffering Son.  That's all I need.  That's all that matters in my small tiny limited mind.  I was given the capability to know my Creator and to know My Only True Love.  No need to complicate the matter, and no need to make silly (YES SILLY) assumptions based on the omniscience of God.
What you say is all I need to, and I thank you for your very fine answer. Though the difference between us is that after having read the bible twice, and prayed a lot for a long time for knowledge of the truth, I can't come to believe that what you are saying is true... Even if I wish it to be true, just as I wish for Dostoevsky's Christ to be true... But in the bible and in my prayers, I come always to see and believe in a God whose love is very exclusive...

Hence lies your problem.  Your inability to see God as your sole Creator and Savior and Love, in whom all things make sense.  You are in love with your own self-torture of complicated knowledge.  You need to sacrifice that part of yourself in order to truly be saved.

And it was even more evident you claimed that you "converted" when in fact all you really did was channel your energy and hatred into something else with no true inner conversion.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 09:41:22 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,560
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #192 on: June 14, 2017, 09:48:09 AM »
You ask the wrong question.  You claim, like Dostoevsky to want to have peace with God rather than knowledge, and yet you desire mere knowledge of something you are incapable of handling, and frankly not important in the discussion.

At this stage in your life, learn to be like the man born blind.  Whether or not God foreknows my destiny, I do not know.  But I know one thing, that once I did not exist, but now I exist (cf. John 9:25).

It really does not matter.  God is love, and I exist because He loves me.  And He loves me so much, He gave me His Son, His Life through His suffering Son.  That's all I need.  That's all that matters in my small tiny limited mind.  I was given the capability to know my Creator and to know My Only True Love.  No need to complicate the matter, and no need to make silly (YES SILLY) assumptions based on the omniscience of God.
What you say is all I need to, and I thank you for your very fine answer. Though the difference between us is that after having read the bible twice, and prayed a lot for a long time for knowledge of the truth, I can't come to believe that what you are saying is true... Even if I wish it to be true, just as I wish for Dostoevsky's Christ to be true... But in the bible and in my prayers, I come always to see and believe in a God whose love is very exclusive...

Hence lies your problem.  Your inability to see God as your sole Creator and Savior and Love, in whom all things make sense.  You are in love with your own self-torture of complicated knowledge.  You need to sacrifice that part of yourself in order to truly be saved.

And it was even more evident you claimed that you "converted" when in fact all you really did was channel your energy and hatred into something else with no true inner conversion.
When did I say I converted? You mean my conversion-experience 2 years ago? That one was real. I felt the love of Christ when I had no theological knowledge. Then for some unexplainable reason I surpressed the truth in unrighteousness and my heart was hardened. Now it seems too late. And now, the more I have read the bible and about theologians, the more it feels like the power of hell is stronger than Christ's love, and the theology presented to me does not resemble my personal encounter with Christ...

Do you find all-embracing love in the bible? Can you provide me with some verses? It would be a huge help... Because I cant see it after having read the bible twice... :/
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 09:49:52 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,708
  • Pray for me Sts. Mina & Kyrillos for my interviews
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #193 on: June 14, 2017, 10:08:08 AM »
Perhaps I misunderstood, but in one of your threads, you seem to have had some sort of relief or hope in you when you finally (or so it seems) let go of the beliefs of a Calvinist God, but all you really did was continue to preach against it and not seem to be able to truly let it go.

Quote
Do you find all-embracing love in the bible? Can you provide me with some verses? It would be a huge help... Because I cant see it after having read the bible twice... :/

No...you claim to have read the Bible twice, but you only seem to read INTO the Bible, not READ THE Bible.

GOD IS LOVE.  Read the Bible through that perspective, not through your own garbled perspective.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 10:08:27 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,560
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #194 on: June 14, 2017, 10:13:15 AM »
Perhaps I misunderstood, but in one of your threads, you seem to have had some sort of relief or hope in you when you finally (or so it seems) let go of the beliefs of a Calvinist God, but all you really did was continue to preach against it and not seem to be able to truly let it go.

Quote
Do you find all-embracing love in the bible? Can you provide me with some verses? It would be a huge help... Because I cant see it after having read the bible twice... :/

No...you claim to have read the Bible twice, but you only seem to read INTO the Bible, not READ THE Bible.

GOD IS LOVE.  Read the Bible through that perspective, not through your own garbled perspective.
That is true but it was a rejection of the calvinist God where I said that I rather go to hell than worship him. Unfortunately I didnt meet the real God there... And still, when reading the bible, I seem incapable of NOT finding calvinism all over the place...
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,708
  • Pray for me Sts. Mina & Kyrillos for my interviews
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #195 on: June 14, 2017, 10:15:21 AM »
Then the only the thing I can say is just do what Mor Ephrem told you.  Maybe that might help.  I do not know, but the discussion here will not lead anywhere.  There's an ample amount of posts that addressed your problems, but you are unable to have ears to listen.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 10:15:54 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,173
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #196 on: June 14, 2017, 10:23:36 AM »
Suit yourself Beebert.  You obviously consider yourself smart enough that you do not know whether God created you or not.  You be the judge of how stupid that sounds.
Oh my... Is it impossible for people to understand what I am saying? I DO BELIEVE God created me.

Good!  Was that so hard?  You see how you did not have to write anymore than 6 words for that.

Now...next question.  THIS IS NOT A TRICK QUESTION.  Is God ALONE your creator, emphasis on the word "ALONE"?
Yes. He created ME. MY PERSON. But NOT my freedom.
Oh? Who created that?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,173
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #197 on: June 14, 2017, 10:25:02 AM »
And if God foresaw eternal hell from all eternity he indirectly created it. That seems blasphemous to me. It is a massive problem.

Do you mean why God created evil people if he foreknows that they will be evil and inherit eternal death?
That is one of the things I wonder yes. Do you have an answer?

Our holy Father, saint John of Damascus said a lot of things about evil and hell. That is why God created even evil people:
"God in His goodness brought what exists into being out of nothing, and has foreknowledge of what will exist in the future. If, therefore, they were not to exist in the future, they would neither be evil in the future nor would they be foreknown. For knowledge is of what exists and foreknowledge is of what will surely exist in the future. For simple being comes first and then good or evil being. But if the very existence of those, who through the goodness of God are in the future to exist, were to be prevented by the fact that they were to become evil of their own choice, evil would have prevailed over the goodness of God. Wherefore God makes all His works good, but each becomes of its own choice good or evil. Although, then, the Lord said, Goad were it for that man that he had never been barn, He said it in condemnation not of His own creation but of the evil which His own creation had acquired by his own choice and through his own heedlessness. For the heedlessness that marks man's judgment made His Creator's beneficence of no profit to him. It is just as if any one, when he had obtained riches and dominion from a king, were to lord it over his benefactor, who, when he has worsted him, will punish him as he deserves, if he should see him keeping hold of the sovereignty to the end."
Exact exposition of the orthodox faith, Book 4, Chapter 21
That doesnt really solve the problem nor answer my question in depth. Only Dostoevsky has been capable of that as far as I know. The problem of hell remains unfortunately...
....one of your own making.
Quote
Father Anthony meditated on the depth of the judgment of God, he asked, “Lord, how is it that some die when they are young, while others drag on to extreme old age?  And why are some poor and others rich?  Why do wicked people prosper and why are the just in need?  He heard a voice answering him, “Anthony, keep your attention on yourself; these things are according to the judgment of God, and it is not to your benefit to know anything about them.
http://www.fatherarseny.com/38-sayings-of-saint-anthony.html
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 10:35:30 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Sharbel

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 349
  • Faith: Maronite Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #198 on: June 14, 2017, 10:26:30 AM »
I find it selfish to spend my life working out my salvation. What about everybody else?...
What if you are supposed to work your salvation out by helping others to work their salvation out?  This is called the Church.  For Our Lord promised His Divine presence among his disciples (i.e., students) only when "two or three gather in [His] Name" (Mt 18:20), not when you read the Bible or pray on your own.  So, rather, read the Bible and pray with the Church: go to Divine Liturgy.  That is where you'll find your answers, in being loved by your Creator and loving those He created.
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ!

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,560
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #199 on: June 14, 2017, 10:36:46 AM »
Suit yourself Beebert.  You obviously consider yourself smart enough that you do not know whether God created you or not.  You be the judge of how stupid that sounds.
Oh my... Is it impossible for people to understand what I am saying? I DO BELIEVE God created me.

Good!  Was that so hard?  You see how you did not have to write anymore than 6 words for that.

Now...next question.  THIS IS NOT A TRICK QUESTION.  Is God ALONE your creator, emphasis on the word "ALONE"?
Yes. He created ME. MY PERSON. But NOT my freedom.
Oh? Who created that?
It is what the mystics call the divine nothing. What genesis describes as chaos. No one created it, just as no one created God
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,173
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #200 on: June 14, 2017, 10:37:11 AM »
I find it selfish to spend my life working out my salvation. What about everybody else?...
What if you are supposed to work your salvation out by helping others to work their salvation out?  This is called the Church.  For Our Lord promised His Divine presence among his disciples (i.e., students) only when "two or three gather in [His] Name" (Mt 18:20), not when you read the Bible or pray on your own.  So, rather, read the Bible and pray with the Church: go to Divine Liturgy.  That is where you'll find your answers, in being loved by your Creator and loving those He created.
"Save yourself, and thousands around you will be saved."-St. Seraphim of Sarov.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,173
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #201 on: June 14, 2017, 10:38:41 AM »
Suit yourself Beebert.  You obviously consider yourself smart enough that you do not know whether God created you or not.  You be the judge of how stupid that sounds.
Oh my... Is it impossible for people to understand what I am saying? I DO BELIEVE God created me.

Good!  Was that so hard?  You see how you did not have to write anymore than 6 words for that.

Now...next question.  THIS IS NOT A TRICK QUESTION.  Is God ALONE your creator, emphasis on the word "ALONE"?
Yes. He created ME. MY PERSON. But NOT my freedom.
Oh? Who created that?
It is what the mystics call the divine nothing. What genesis describes as chaos. No one created it, just as no one created God
That would make it co-eternal with God, a logical absurdity and theology blasphemy.

And no, the mystics Him that.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,560
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #202 on: June 14, 2017, 10:39:07 AM »
And if God foresaw eternal hell from all eternity he indirectly created it. That seems blasphemous to me. It is a massive problem.

Do you mean why God created evil people if he foreknows that they will be evil and inherit eternal death?
That is one of the things I wonder yes. Do you have an answer?

Our holy Father, saint John of Damascus said a lot of things about evil and hell. That is why God created even evil people:
"God in His goodness brought what exists into being out of nothing, and has foreknowledge of what will exist in the future. If, therefore, they were not to exist in the future, they would neither be evil in the future nor would they be foreknown. For knowledge is of what exists and foreknowledge is of what will surely exist in the future. For simple being comes first and then good or evil being. But if the very existence of those, who through the goodness of God are in the future to exist, were to be prevented by the fact that they were to become evil of their own choice, evil would have prevailed over the goodness of God. Wherefore God makes all His works good, but each becomes of its own choice good or evil. Although, then, the Lord said, Goad were it for that man that he had never been barn, He said it in condemnation not of His own creation but of the evil which His own creation had acquired by his own choice and through his own heedlessness. For the heedlessness that marks man's judgment made His Creator's beneficence of no profit to him. It is just as if any one, when he had obtained riches and dominion from a king, were to lord it over his benefactor, who, when he has worsted him, will punish him as he deserves, if he should see him keeping hold of the sovereignty to the end."
Exact exposition of the orthodox faith, Book 4, Chapter 21
That doesnt really solve the problem nor answer my question in depth. Only Dostoevsky has been capable of that as far as I know. The problem of hell remains unfortunately...
....one of your own making.
Quote
Father Anthony meditated on the depth of the judgment of God, he asked, “Lord, how is it that some die when they are young, while others drag on to extreme old age?  And why are some poor and others rich?  Why do wicked people prosper and why are the just in need?  He heard a voice answering him, “Anthony, keep your attention on yourself; these things are according to the judgment of God, and it is not to your benefit to know anything about them.
http://www.fatherarseny.com/38-sayings-of-saint-anthony.html
Dont you Care about if rebelious people go to hell? Are you satisfied with Thinking it is their own fault or that they get what they deserve? I am not. Therefore, hell is a huge problem for me
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,560
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #203 on: June 14, 2017, 10:40:59 AM »
Suit yourself Beebert.  You obviously consider yourself smart enough that you do not know whether God created you or not.  You be the judge of how stupid that sounds.
Oh my... Is it impossible for people to understand what I am saying? I DO BELIEVE God created me.

Good!  Was that so hard?  You see how you did not have to write anymore than 6 words for that.

Now...next question.  THIS IS NOT A TRICK QUESTION.  Is God ALONE your creator, emphasis on the word "ALONE"?
Yes. He created ME. MY PERSON. But NOT my freedom.
Oh? Who created that?
It is what the mystics call the divine nothing. What genesis describes as chaos. No one created it, just as no one created God
That would make it co-eternal with God, a logical absurdity and theology blasphemy.

And no, the mystics Him that.
Read Dostoevsky and Berdyaev. Perhaps they were blasphemers then. It is basically their idea. Actually it IS Berdyaev 's idea, first developed in some mystics (like Eckehart and Boehme) and then also in Dostoevsky.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,560
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #204 on: June 14, 2017, 10:42:07 AM »
I find it selfish to spend my life working out my salvation. What about everybody else?...
What if you are supposed to work your salvation out by helping others to work their salvation out?  This is called the Church.  For Our Lord promised His Divine presence among his disciples (i.e., students) only when "two or three gather in [His] Name" (Mt 18:20), not when you read the Bible or pray on your own.  So, rather, read the Bible and pray with the Church: go to Divine Liturgy.  That is where you'll find your answers, in being loved by your Creator and loving those He created.
"Save yourself, and thousands around you will be saved."-St. Seraphim of Sarov.
Yes. And true. Is that the main reason why you want salvation?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,560
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #205 on: June 14, 2017, 10:43:47 AM »
I find it selfish to spend my life working out my salvation. What about everybody else?...
What if you are supposed to work your salvation out by helping others to work their salvation out?  This is called the Church.  For Our Lord promised His Divine presence among his disciples (i.e., students) only when "two or three gather in [His] Name" (Mt 18:20), not when you read the Bible or pray on your own.  So, rather, read the Bible and pray with the Church: go to Divine Liturgy.  That is where you'll find your answers, in being loved by your Creator and loving those He created.
Thanks you are right
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Alkis

  • All things therefore whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, even so do ye also unto them: for this is the law and the prophets. (Matthew 7:12)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 224
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Constantinople
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #206 on: June 14, 2017, 10:47:24 AM »
Have you read beebert works of saint Maximus the Confessor? It would be helpful for you to understand that Orthodoxy doesn't focus on hell and eternal damnation.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 10:47:40 AM by Alkis »
For You keep my lamp burning; Lord my God You illumine my darkness. (Psalm 17:29)

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,560
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #207 on: June 14, 2017, 10:49:41 AM »
Have you read beebert works of saint Maximus the Confessor? It would be helpful for you to understand that Orthodoxy doesn't focus on hell and eternal damnation.
No never read him. Please of you want, recommend some of his Works to me... I have the feeling I would like him
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Alkis

  • All things therefore whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, even so do ye also unto them: for this is the law and the prophets. (Matthew 7:12)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 224
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Constantinople
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #208 on: June 14, 2017, 10:54:01 AM »
Read these two works. You will find peace (I hope).
Centuries on Love
Centuries on Theology
For You keep my lamp burning; Lord my God You illumine my darkness. (Psalm 17:29)

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,080
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #209 on: June 14, 2017, 11:00:32 AM »
Suit yourself Beebert.  You obviously consider yourself smart enough that you do not know whether God created you or not.  You be the judge of how stupid that sounds.
Oh my... Is it impossible for people to understand what I am saying? I DO BELIEVE God created me.

Good!  Was that so hard?  You see how you did not have to write anymore than 6 words for that.

Now...next question.  THIS IS NOT A TRICK QUESTION.  Is God ALONE your creator, emphasis on the word "ALONE"?
Yes. He created ME. MY PERSON. But NOT my freedom.
Oh? Who created that?
It is what the mystics call the divine nothing. What genesis describes as chaos. No one created it, just as no one created God
That would make it co-eternal with God, a logical absurdity and theology blasphemy.

And no, the mystics Him that.
Read Dostoevsky and Berdyaev. Perhaps they were blasphemers then. It is basically their idea. Actually it IS Berdyaev 's idea, first developed in some mystics (like Eckehart and Boehme) and then also in Dostoevsky.

You're in way over your head.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,560
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #210 on: June 14, 2017, 11:03:20 AM »
Suit yourself Beebert.  You obviously consider yourself smart enough that you do not know whether God created you or not.  You be the judge of how stupid that sounds.
Oh my... Is it impossible for people to understand what I am saying? I DO BELIEVE God created me.

Good!  Was that so hard?  You see how you did not have to write anymore than 6 words for that.

Now...next question.  THIS IS NOT A TRICK QUESTION.  Is God ALONE your creator, emphasis on the word "ALONE"?
Yes. He created ME. MY PERSON. But NOT my freedom.
Oh? Who created that?
It is what the mystics call the divine nothing. What genesis describes as chaos. No one created it, just as no one created God
That would make it co-eternal with God, a logical absurdity and theology blasphemy.

And no, the mystics Him that.
Read Dostoevsky and Berdyaev. Perhaps they were blasphemers then. It is basically their idea. Actually it IS Berdyaev 's idea, first developed in some mystics (like Eckehart and Boehme) and then also in Dostoevsky.

You're in way over your head.
I Guess... Will you pray for me? I am evil
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,560
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #211 on: June 14, 2017, 11:04:39 AM »
Read these two works. You will find peace (I hope).
Centuries on Love
Centuries on Theology
Thank you very much. I will. Do you have Any suggestions for works by Isaac the Syrian?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,173
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #212 on: June 14, 2017, 11:18:24 AM »
And if God foresaw eternal hell from all eternity he indirectly created it. That seems blasphemous to me. It is a massive problem.

Do you mean why God created evil people if he foreknows that they will be evil and inherit eternal death?
That is one of the things I wonder yes. Do you have an answer?

Our holy Father, saint John of Damascus said a lot of things about evil and hell. That is why God created even evil people:
"God in His goodness brought what exists into being out of nothing, and has foreknowledge of what will exist in the future. If, therefore, they were not to exist in the future, they would neither be evil in the future nor would they be foreknown. For knowledge is of what exists and foreknowledge is of what will surely exist in the future. For simple being comes first and then good or evil being. But if the very existence of those, who through the goodness of God are in the future to exist, were to be prevented by the fact that they were to become evil of their own choice, evil would have prevailed over the goodness of God. Wherefore God makes all His works good, but each becomes of its own choice good or evil. Although, then, the Lord said, Goad were it for that man that he had never been barn, He said it in condemnation not of His own creation but of the evil which His own creation had acquired by his own choice and through his own heedlessness. For the heedlessness that marks man's judgment made His Creator's beneficence of no profit to him. It is just as if any one, when he had obtained riches and dominion from a king, were to lord it over his benefactor, who, when he has worsted him, will punish him as he deserves, if he should see him keeping hold of the sovereignty to the end."
Exact exposition of the orthodox faith, Book 4, Chapter 21
That doesnt really solve the problem nor answer my question in depth. Only Dostoevsky has been capable of that as far as I know. The problem of hell remains unfortunately...
....one of your own making.
Quote
Father Anthony meditated on the depth of the judgment of God, he asked, “Lord, how is it that some die when they are young, while others drag on to extreme old age?  And why are some poor and others rich?  Why do wicked people prosper and why are the just in need?  He heard a voice answering him, “Anthony, keep your attention on yourself; these things are according to the judgment of God, and it is not to your benefit to know anything about them.
http://www.fatherarseny.com/38-sayings-of-saint-anthony.html
Dont you Care about if rebelious people go to hell? Are you satisfied with Thinking it is their own fault or that they get what they deserve? I am not. Therefore, hell is a huge problem for me
One of your own making, as pointed out above. Who are you to judge God? Do you really think you do better playing devil's advocate for the defense than the Paraklete?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,173
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #213 on: June 14, 2017, 11:20:09 AM »
I find it selfish to spend my life working out my salvation. What about everybody else?...
What if you are supposed to work your salvation out by helping others to work their salvation out?  This is called the Church.  For Our Lord promised His Divine presence among his disciples (i.e., students) only when "two or three gather in [His] Name" (Mt 18:20), not when you read the Bible or pray on your own.  So, rather, read the Bible and pray with the Church: go to Divine Liturgy.  That is where you'll find your answers, in being loved by your Creator and loving those He created.
"Save yourself, and thousands around you will be saved."-St. Seraphim of Sarov.
Yes. And true. Is that the main reason why you want salvation?
don't let your curiosity about my salvation lead you astray...
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,560
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #214 on: June 14, 2017, 11:24:00 AM »
And if God foresaw eternal hell from all eternity he indirectly created it. That seems blasphemous to me. It is a massive problem.

Do you mean why God created evil people if he foreknows that they will be evil and inherit eternal death?
That is one of the things I wonder yes. Do you have an answer?

Our holy Father, saint John of Damascus said a lot of things about evil and hell. That is why God created even evil people:
"God in His goodness brought what exists into being out of nothing, and has foreknowledge of what will exist in the future. If, therefore, they were not to exist in the future, they would neither be evil in the future nor would they be foreknown. For knowledge is of what exists and foreknowledge is of what will surely exist in the future. For simple being comes first and then good or evil being. But if the very existence of those, who through the goodness of God are in the future to exist, were to be prevented by the fact that they were to become evil of their own choice, evil would have prevailed over the goodness of God. Wherefore God makes all His works good, but each becomes of its own choice good or evil. Although, then, the Lord said, Goad were it for that man that he had never been barn, He said it in condemnation not of His own creation but of the evil which His own creation had acquired by his own choice and through his own heedlessness. For the heedlessness that marks man's judgment made His Creator's beneficence of no profit to him. It is just as if any one, when he had obtained riches and dominion from a king, were to lord it over his benefactor, who, when he has worsted him, will punish him as he deserves, if he should see him keeping hold of the sovereignty to the end."
Exact exposition of the orthodox faith, Book 4, Chapter 21
That doesnt really solve the problem nor answer my question in depth. Only Dostoevsky has been capable of that as far as I know. The problem of hell remains unfortunately...
....one of your own making.
Quote
Father Anthony meditated on the depth of the judgment of God, he asked, “Lord, how is it that some die when they are young, while others drag on to extreme old age?  And why are some poor and others rich?  Why do wicked people prosper and why are the just in need?  He heard a voice answering him, “Anthony, keep your attention on yourself; these things are according to the judgment of God, and it is not to your benefit to know anything about them.
http://www.fatherarseny.com/38-sayings-of-saint-anthony.html
Dont you Care about if rebelious people go to hell? Are you satisfied with Thinking it is their own fault or that they get what they deserve? I am not. Therefore, hell is a huge problem for me
One of your own making, as pointed out above. Who are you to judge God? Do you really think you do better playing devil's advocate for the defense than the Paraklete?
What? I am out of this thread. I apologize if I have offended you. Forgive me.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Alkis

  • All things therefore whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, even so do ye also unto them: for this is the law and the prophets. (Matthew 7:12)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 224
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Constantinople
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #215 on: June 14, 2017, 11:28:56 AM »
Read these two works. You will find peace (I hope).
Centuries on Love
Centuries on Theology
Thank you very much. I will. Do you have Any suggestions for works by Isaac the Syrian?

I have just a translation in new greek of his ascetic homilies... Saint John of Damascus, saint Maximus the Confessor, saint Isaac the Syrian and saint Gregory Palamas are my favourite Fathers and my personal teachers. :P
For You keep my lamp burning; Lord my God You illumine my darkness. (Psalm 17:29)

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 32,618
  • Pope Pius XIII, play for us!
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #216 on: June 14, 2017, 01:58:21 PM »
You neglect the fact that people can choose whether or not to sin.

People receive the consequences of their actions.

They can also choose to repent.

God is not the author of sin.

You have no business blaming God.
I don't blame God. I question the traditional view and its logical consequences. We dont know all the mysteries that is behind the truth. At least least have the Courage to think and ask questions. Why not answering with your view of the problem I presented?

I did.

You continue to ignore our very numerous opportunities to repent.

You don't have to go to Hell.
I cant repent.

Can you go to a doctor?
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,560
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #217 on: June 14, 2017, 02:06:59 PM »
You neglect the fact that people can choose whether or not to sin.

People receive the consequences of their actions.

They can also choose to repent.

God is not the author of sin.

You have no business blaming God.
I don't blame God. I question the traditional view and its logical consequences. We dont know all the mysteries that is behind the truth. At least least have the Courage to think and ask questions. Why not answering with your view of the problem I presented?

I did.

You continue to ignore our very numerous opportunities to repent.

You don't have to go to Hell.
I cant repent.

Can you go to a doctor?
But What is reoentance? What I there to turn to? I cant have Faith in God without his grace. I have tried. Just like Esau tried. The warnings about what has happened to me are quite clear in scripture. Especally in Hebrews.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,080
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #218 on: June 14, 2017, 02:26:07 PM »
You neglect the fact that people can choose whether or not to sin.

People receive the consequences of their actions.

They can also choose to repent.

God is not the author of sin.

You have no business blaming God.
I don't blame God. I question the traditional view and its logical consequences. We dont know all the mysteries that is behind the truth. At least least have the Courage to think and ask questions. Why not answering with your view of the problem I presented?

I did.

You continue to ignore our very numerous opportunities to repent.

You don't have to go to Hell.
I cant repent.

Can you go to a doctor?
But What is reoentance? What I there to turn to? I cant have Faith in God without his grace. I have tried. Just like Esau tried. The warnings about what has happened to me are quite clear in scripture. Especally in Hebrews.

He couldn't recover his inheritance. He went on to be blessed by God in other ways. Why am I repeating myself? You're not being too grateful for others' time if you don't read our replies.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,560
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #219 on: June 14, 2017, 02:34:10 PM »
You neglect the fact that people can choose whether or not to sin.

People receive the consequences of their actions.

They can also choose to repent.

God is not the author of sin.

You have no business blaming God.
I don't blame God. I question the traditional view and its logical consequences. We dont know all the mysteries that is behind the truth. At least least have the Courage to think and ask questions. Why not answering with your view of the problem I presented?

I did.

You continue to ignore our very numerous opportunities to repent.

You don't have to go to Hell.
I cant repent.

Can you go to a doctor?
But What is reoentance? What I there to turn to? I cant have Faith in God without his grace. I have tried. Just like Esau tried. The warnings about what has happened to me are quite clear in scripture. Especally in Hebrews.

He couldn't recover his inheritance. He went on to be blessed by God in other ways. Why am I repeating myself? You're not being too grateful for others' time if you don't read our replies.
Sorry... I will try to Change.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 32,618
  • Pope Pius XIII, play for us!
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #220 on: June 14, 2017, 02:47:45 PM »
You neglect the fact that people can choose whether or not to sin.

People receive the consequences of their actions.

They can also choose to repent.

God is not the author of sin.

You have no business blaming God.
I don't blame God. I question the traditional view and its logical consequences. We dont know all the mysteries that is behind the truth. At least least have the Courage to think and ask questions. Why not answering with your view of the problem I presented?

I did.

You continue to ignore our very numerous opportunities to repent.

You don't have to go to Hell.
I cant repent.

Can you go to a doctor?
But What is reoentance? What I there to turn to? I cant have Faith in God without his grace. I have tried. Just like Esau tried. The warnings about what has happened to me are quite clear in scripture. Especally in Hebrews.

I don't think you can possibly understand any of this until you are in a healthier mental and physical condition.  Maybe getting to that point through medical treatment, counseling, cultivation of good habits, etc., should be your primary spiritual, theological, and ascetic task.  Essentially you're bleeding to death, and your primary concern is your philosophical difficulty with the concept of gravity, which in turn is causing an intense interior conflict about why all the blood is flowing out and dripping downward when plenty of other things float, and you are so focused on that mental exercise that you won't allow yourself or anyone else to help you get to the hospital where people would focus on helping you not die. 
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

Offline RaphaCam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,282
  • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
    • Em Espírito e em Verdade
  • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #221 on: June 14, 2017, 03:08:55 PM »
But What is reoentance? What I there to turn to? I cant have Faith in God without his grace. I have tried. Just like Esau tried. The warnings about what has happened to me are quite clear in scripture. Especally in Hebrews.
Take a read at this: http://livingorthodoxtheology.blogspot.com.br/2014/11/how-to-deal-with-sinful-condition.html
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese)

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,560
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #222 on: June 14, 2017, 03:13:25 PM »
But What is reoentance? What I there to turn to? I cant have Faith in God without his grace. I have tried. Just like Esau tried. The warnings about what has happened to me are quite clear in scripture. Especally in Hebrews.
Take a read at this: http://livingorthodoxtheology.blogspot.com.br/2014/11/how-to-deal-with-sinful-condition.html
‘I will reject them when the measure of their sins will exceed the measure of their suffering’…

Had I only read this 4 months ago
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,560
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #223 on: June 14, 2017, 03:22:55 PM »
You neglect the fact that people can choose whether or not to sin.

People receive the consequences of their actions.

They can also choose to repent.

God is not the author of sin.

You have no business blaming God.
I don't blame God. I question the traditional view and its logical consequences. We dont know all the mysteries that is behind the truth. At least least have the Courage to think and ask questions. Why not answering with your view of the problem I presented?

I did.

You continue to ignore our very numerous opportunities to repent.

You don't have to go to Hell.
I cant repent.

Can you go to a doctor?
But What is reoentance? What I there to turn to? I cant have Faith in God without his grace. I have tried. Just like Esau tried. The warnings about what has happened to me are quite clear in scripture. Especally in Hebrews.

I don't think you can possibly understand any of this until you are in a healthier mental and physical condition.  Maybe getting to that point through medical treatment, counseling, cultivation of good habits, etc., should be your primary spiritual, theological, and ascetic task.  Essentially you're bleeding to death, and your primary concern is your philosophical difficulty with the concept of gravity, which in turn is causing an intense interior conflict about why all the blood is flowing out and dripping downward when plenty of other things float, and you are so focused on that mental exercise that you won't allow yourself or anyone else to help you get to the hospital where people would focus on helping you not die.
I Guess I need to follow this advice
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,560
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #224 on: June 14, 2017, 03:32:28 PM »
I might suffer, or at least have suffered from scruples
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)