Author Topic: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?  (Read 8246 times)

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #135 on: June 12, 2017, 12:32:19 PM »
In the post above the one you just made, I have a clear view of the Augustinian theology and Its consequences. I would Love it if you could provide me an orthodox answer to those problems, where orthodoxy differ. Because I haven't quite understood it...

Evidently.  For starters, you're misusing the word "dogma". 

Look, none of this is going to help you.  Even if I offer a line by line response to your post, you're in no condition to hear it. 

You would do much better if you would read the Gospel of John from beginning to end, and then do it again, and continue to repeat this reading of the entire Gospel for a year.  Don't read anything else for the whole year.  Just John.
Nothing Else from the whole bible?

Nothing else.  It'll be there for you next year. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #136 on: June 12, 2017, 01:45:12 PM »
This reminds of a story of a former Islamist terrorist who converted into the Coptic Orthodox Church formerly named "Sheikh Saber".  In his autobiographical story to some Coptic monks he mentioned how we spent weeks rereading John 1:1 alone just so that he can understand the rest of the chapter!
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Offline beebert

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #137 on: June 12, 2017, 02:56:54 PM »
In the post above the one you just made, I have a clear view of the Augustinian theology and Its consequences. I would Love it if you could provide me an orthodox answer to those problems, where orthodoxy differ. Because I haven't quite understood it...

Evidently.  For starters, you're misusing the word "dogma". 

Look, none of this is going to help you.  Even if I offer a line by line response to your post, you're in no condition to hear it. 

You would do much better if you would read the Gospel of John from beginning to end, and then do it again, and continue to repeat this reading of the entire Gospel for a year.  Don't read anything else for the whole year.  Just John.
Nothing Else from the whole bible?

Nothing else.  It'll be there for you next year.
I will seriously consider your advice! I think I will follow it. Though I must say, I read today the letter of Clement to the corinthians from the Apostlic Fathers. Now that is a wonderful letter. That is what feels to me to be a true christian and authentic christianity. It is the greatest Christian letter I think I have ever read.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #138 on: June 12, 2017, 04:56:13 PM »
In the post above the one you just made, I have a clear view of the Augustinian theology and Its consequences. I would Love it if you could provide me an orthodox answer to those problems, where orthodoxy differ. Because I haven't quite understood it...

Evidently.  For starters, you're misusing the word "dogma". 

Look, none of this is going to help you.  Even if I offer a line by line response to your post, you're in no condition to hear it. 

You would do much better if you would read the Gospel of John from beginning to end, and then do it again, and continue to repeat this reading of the entire Gospel for a year.  Don't read anything else for the whole year.  Just John.
Nothing Else from the whole bible?

Nothing else.  It'll be there for you next year.
I will seriously consider your advice! I think I will follow it. Though I must say, I read today the letter of Clement to the corinthians from the Apostlic Fathers. Now that is a wonderful letter. That is what feels to me to be a true christian and authentic christianity. It is the greatest Christian letter I think I have ever read.

Then I think the letters of St. Peter would blow your mind.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Alkis

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #139 on: June 12, 2017, 06:14:53 PM »
Saint Augustine said one of my favourite phrases "love is the beauty of the soul". I venerate him, I admire the fact that he wrote so many works to defend the christian faith although our Church don't accept some of his teachings. This doesn't make him less saint. He is a Father of the Church. Also, I think that we must remember that saint Augustine was not considered himself infallible and he asked for corrections of others. Heretic is man who continues his errors EVEN IF SOMEONE SHOWS HIM THE TRUTH. And saint Augustine was not selfish. Noone is infallible except God. Holy Spirit in all of these centuries guides us in God's Truth, accepting some teachings and rejecting other.

As for the letter of saint Paul to Romans, me must all know what "justice" means in hebrew (tzedakah) and read the chapter 59 in Isaiah, from which the holy apostle quotes. Then it will be so easy to avoid the errors of the heretics. Saint Augustine also said that for difficult passages we must read them in their original languange. This letter is one of the most important letters of saint Paul and the letter that many people fell in heresies due to wrong understanding. My personal experience showed me that a christian must read the WHOLE Old Testament CAREFULLY and then read the New Testament.
Read this article about Romans 9
http://www.joeledmundanderson.com/?p=1149&
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Offline beebert

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #140 on: June 13, 2017, 06:08:19 AM »
In the post above the one you just made, I have a clear view of the Augustinian theology and Its consequences. I would Love it if you could provide me an orthodox answer to those problems, where orthodoxy differ. Because I haven't quite understood it...

Evidently.  For starters, you're misusing the word "dogma". 

Look, none of this is going to help you.  Even if I offer a line by line response to your post, you're in no condition to hear it. 

You would do much better if you would read the Gospel of John from beginning to end, and then do it again, and continue to repeat this reading of the entire Gospel for a year.  Don't read anything else for the whole year.  Just John.
Nothing Else from the whole bible?

Nothing else.  It'll be there for you next year.
I will seriously consider your advice! I think I will follow it. Though I must say, I read today the letter of Clement to the corinthians from the Apostlic Fathers. Now that is a wonderful letter. That is what feels to me to be a true christian and authentic christianity. It is the greatest Christian letter I think I have ever read.

Then I think the letters of St. Peter would blow your mind.
They are good but not as loving. I like John's 1st letter.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #141 on: June 13, 2017, 06:14:05 AM »
Saint Augustine said one of my favourite phrases "love is the beauty of the soul". I venerate him, I admire the fact that he wrote so many works to defend the christian faith although our Church don't accept some of his teachings. This doesn't make him less saint. He is a Father of the Church. Also, I think that we must remember that saint Augustine was not considered himself infallible and he asked for corrections of others. Heretic is man who continues his errors EVEN IF SOMEONE SHOWS HIM THE TRUTH. And saint Augustine was not selfish. Noone is infallible except God. Holy Spirit in all of these centuries guides us in God's Truth, accepting some teachings and rejecting other.

As for the letter of saint Paul to Romans, me must all know what "justice" means in hebrew (tzedakah) and read the chapter 59 in Isaiah, from which the holy apostle quotes. Then it will be so easy to avoid the errors of the heretics. Saint Augustine also said that for difficult passages we must read them in their original languange. This letter is one of the most important letters of saint Paul and the letter that many people fell in heresies due to wrong understanding. My personal experience showed me that a christian must read the WHOLE Old Testament CAREFULLY and then read the New Testament.
Read this article about Romans 9
http://www.joeledmundanderson.com/?p=1149&
St. Augustine said many good and admirable things like "Truth without love is cruelty". But the older he got the more pessimistic he seems to have got.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Alkis

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #142 on: June 13, 2017, 10:28:30 AM »
I didn't read all of his works so I can't criticize him. I accept this phrase of saint John of Damascus about the Fathers "...and the God-inspired Fathers handed down a true message, whether they taught this doctrine or that..." Our Fathers passed down to us every possible interpretation. The Spirit of God accepted some of them as true for His Church. We can't blame a man who tried to teach about God even if he is wrong. It wasn't his will to teach something wrong.
For You keep my lamp burning; Lord my God You illumine my darkness. (Psalm 17:29)

Offline beebert

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #143 on: June 13, 2017, 11:02:21 AM »
Anyway, in traditional theology, in the classical theist view, God foresaw the fatal consequences of creating man, whether those fatal consequences depends on man's fatal freedom or God's determinate Will but God did nothing to prevent these consequences. He  foresaw the perdition of many, but went along the line anyway. And I claim with confidence that this traditional view is a major reason to why many morally good people reject God and become atheists. It is the profound moral source of atheism.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline biro

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #144 on: June 13, 2017, 11:49:16 AM »
You neglect the fact that people can choose whether or not to sin.

People receive the consequences of their actions.

They can also choose to repent.

God is not the author of sin.

You have no business blaming God.




 
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #145 on: June 13, 2017, 11:57:47 AM »
St. Augustine is upfront that his writings are his own attempts to understand, which he admits are faulty and in part at least perhaps in error, unlike St. Jerome,  who writes as if his word is the singular last dogmatic stand.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #146 on: June 13, 2017, 11:59:38 AM »
Anyway, in traditional theology, in the classical theist view, God foresaw the fatal consequences of creating man, whether those fatal consequences depends on man's fatal freedom or God's determinate Will but God did nothing to prevent these consequences. He  foresaw the perdition of many, but went along the line anyway. And I claim with confidence that this traditional view is a major reason to why many morally good people reject God and become atheists. It is the profound moral source of atheism.

You keep asserting this, every few posts, as tho that's going eventually to make it true.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #147 on: June 13, 2017, 12:03:32 PM »
You neglect the fact that people can choose whether or not to sin.

People receive the consequences of their actions.

They can also choose to repent.

God is not the author of sin.

You have no business blaming God.
I don't blame God. I question the traditional view and its logical consequences. We dont know all the mysteries that is behind the truth. At least least have the Courage to think and ask questions. Why not answering with your view of the problem I presented?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #148 on: June 13, 2017, 12:05:37 PM »
Anyway, in traditional theology, in the classical theist view, God foresaw the fatal consequences of creating man, whether those fatal consequences depends on man's fatal freedom or God's determinate Will but God did nothing to prevent these consequences. He  foresaw the perdition of many, but went along the line anyway. And I claim with confidence that this traditional view is a major reason to why many morally good people reject God and become atheists. It is the profound moral source of atheism.

You keep asserting this, every few posts, as tho that's going eventually to make it true.
As if what is true? This is the traditional view right? En these are the objections one often hear from morally serious unbelievers who try to understand.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #149 on: June 13, 2017, 12:09:28 PM »
Anyway, in traditional theology, in the classical theist view, God foresaw the fatal consequences of creating man, whether those fatal consequences depends on man's fatal freedom or God's determinate Will but God did nothing to prevent these consequences. He  foresaw the perdition of many, but went along the line anyway. And I claim with confidence that this traditional view is a major reason to why many morally good people reject God and become atheists. It is the profound moral source of atheism.

You keep asserting this, every few posts, as tho that's going eventually to make it true.
As if what is true? This is the traditional view right? En these are the objections one often hear from morally serious unbelievers who try to understand.
Can you hear hypothetical constructs?

Profound moral source of atheism. No such thing. And, btw, no, it is not true nor traditional.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #150 on: June 13, 2017, 01:24:20 PM »
Anyway, in traditional theology, in the classical theist view, God foresaw the fatal consequences of creating man, whether those fatal consequences depends on man's fatal freedom or God's determinate Will but God did nothing to prevent these consequences. He  foresaw the perdition of many, but went along the line anyway. And I claim with confidence that this traditional view is a major reason to why many morally good people reject God and become atheists. It is the profound moral source of atheism.

You keep asserting this, every few posts, as tho that's going eventually to make it true.
As if what is true? This is the traditional view right? En these are the objections one often hear from morally serious unbelievers who try to understand.

Nope. It sure isn't. Christian Tradition does very little in the way of accusing God of evil -- shocking, I know. ::) "For he is a good God who alone loves mankind" is the traditional affirmation. Maybe it's a good thing you've finally come to an (ostensibly) non-Skeptical forum to learn about Christianity -- altho it's obviously taking you a while to adjust.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #151 on: June 13, 2017, 02:12:13 PM »
Anyway, in traditional theology, in the classical theist view, God foresaw the fatal consequences of creating man, whether those fatal consequences depends on man's fatal freedom or God's determinate Will but God did nothing to prevent these consequences. He  foresaw the perdition of many, but went along the line anyway. And I claim with confidence that this traditional view is a major reason to why many morally good people reject God and become atheists. It is the profound moral source of atheism.

You keep asserting this, every few posts, as tho that's going eventually to make it true.
As if what is true? This is the traditional view right? En these are the objections one often hear from morally serious unbelievers who try to understand.
Can you hear hypothetical constructs?

Profound moral source of atheism. No such thing. And, btw, no, it is not true nor traditional.
I prefer atheism over fanatical fundamentalism dressed up as faith in God. So in some cases, one should take arguments from atheists who are trying to be honest and who honestly search the truth seriously. I am thinking about Ivan Karamazov for example. To ridicule him and thereby not see his struggle would be a pharisaical crime
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 02:15:35 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #152 on: June 13, 2017, 02:19:18 PM »
Anyway, in traditional theology, in the classical theist view, God foresaw the fatal consequences of creating man, whether those fatal consequences depends on man's fatal freedom or God's determinate Will but God did nothing to prevent these consequences. He  foresaw the perdition of many, but went along the line anyway. And I claim with confidence that this traditional view is a major reason to why many morally good people reject God and become atheists. It is the profound moral source of atheism.

You keep asserting this, every few posts, as tho that's going eventually to make it true.
As if what is true? This is the traditional view right? En these are the objections one often hear from morally serious unbelievers who try to understand.

Nope. It sure isn't. Christian Tradition does very little in the way of accusing God of evil -- shocking, I know. ::) "For he is a good God who alone loves mankind" is the traditional affirmation. Maybe it's a good thing you've finally come to an (ostensibly) non-Skeptical forum to learn about Christianity -- altho it's obviously taking you a while to adjust.
I liked the citation that God alone loves man. Never heard before. Where can I find it and what is the traditional view about God's foreknowledge in relation to freedom and predestination etc? Did God foresee eternal hell before creating the world?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #153 on: June 13, 2017, 02:41:38 PM »
Anyway, in traditional theology, in the classical theist view, God foresaw the fatal consequences of creating man, whether those fatal consequences depends on man's fatal freedom or God's determinate Will but God did nothing to prevent these consequences. He  foresaw the perdition of many, but went along the line anyway. And I claim with confidence that this traditional view is a major reason to why many morally good people reject God and become atheists. It is the profound moral source of atheism.

You keep asserting this, every few posts, as tho that's going eventually to make it true.
As if what is true? This is the traditional view right? En these are the objections one often hear from morally serious unbelievers who try to understand.
Can you hear hypothetical constructs?

Profound moral source of atheism. No such thing. And, btw, no, it is not true nor traditional.
I prefer atheism over fanatical fundamentalism dressed up as faith in God. So in some cases, one should take arguments from atheists who are trying to be honest and who honestly search the truth seriously. I am thinking about Ivan Karamazov for example. To ridicule him and thereby not see his struggle would be a pharisaical crime

Our minds weren't designed to inhabit a world of fiction. Without real people and fruitful acts to apply themselves to, our minds simply spin wheels endlessly and sicken.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #154 on: June 13, 2017, 02:43:14 PM »
Anyway, in traditional theology, in the classical theist view, God foresaw the fatal consequences of creating man, whether those fatal consequences depends on man's fatal freedom or God's determinate Will but God did nothing to prevent these consequences. He  foresaw the perdition of many, but went along the line anyway. And I claim with confidence that this traditional view is a major reason to why many morally good people reject God and become atheists. It is the profound moral source of atheism.

You keep asserting this, every few posts, as tho that's going eventually to make it true.
As if what is true? This is the traditional view right? En these are the objections one often hear from morally serious unbelievers who try to understand.

Nope. It sure isn't. Christian Tradition does very little in the way of accusing God of evil -- shocking, I know. ::) "For he is a good God who alone loves mankind" is the traditional affirmation. Maybe it's a good thing you've finally come to an (ostensibly) non-Skeptical forum to learn about Christianity -- altho it's obviously taking you a while to adjust.
I liked the citation that God alone loves man. Never heard before. Where can I find it and what is the traditional view about God's foreknowledge in relation to freedom and predestination etc? Did God foresee eternal hell before creating the world?

Good gravy. Pardon my shock, but you really need to get to church. That's part of the prayers at almost any service, if not all of them.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #155 on: June 13, 2017, 03:42:13 PM »
Anyway, in traditional theology, in the classical theist view, God foresaw the fatal consequences of creating man, whether those fatal consequences depends on man's fatal freedom or God's determinate Will but God did nothing to prevent these consequences. He  foresaw the perdition of many, but went along the line anyway. And I claim with confidence that this traditional view is a major reason to why many morally good people reject God and become atheists. It is the profound moral source of atheism.

You keep asserting this, every few posts, as tho that's going eventually to make it true.
As if what is true? This is the traditional view right? En these are the objections one often hear from morally serious unbelievers who try to understand.

Nope. It sure isn't. Christian Tradition does very little in the way of accusing God of evil -- shocking, I know. ::) "For he is a good God who alone loves mankind" is the traditional affirmation. Maybe it's a good thing you've finally come to an (ostensibly) non-Skeptical forum to learn about Christianity -- altho it's obviously taking you a while to adjust.
I liked the citation that God alone loves man. Never heard before. Where can I find it and what is the traditional view about God's foreknowledge in relation to freedom and predestination etc? Did God foresee eternal hell before creating the world?

Good gravy. Pardon my shock, but you really need to get to church. That's part of the prayers at almost any service, if not all of them.
I go to Church. Though I prefer not to take the eucharist since I do not deserve it in this condition, it would be to My condemnation. And I doubt God wants it. At least it feels wrong to take it before My heart says that is what God wants. And honestly, I have never heard at the liturgy that God ALONE loves mankind... Now... IF You dont mind, please answer the question about whether God from all eternity foreknew eternal torment in hell or not according to traditional theology...
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 03:43:09 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #156 on: June 13, 2017, 03:44:15 PM »
Anyway, in traditional theology, in the classical theist view, God foresaw the fatal consequences of creating man, whether those fatal consequences depends on man's fatal freedom or God's determinate Will but God did nothing to prevent these consequences. He  foresaw the perdition of many, but went along the line anyway. And I claim with confidence that this traditional view is a major reason to why many morally good people reject God and become atheists. It is the profound moral source of atheism.

You keep asserting this, every few posts, as tho that's going eventually to make it true.
As if what is true? This is the traditional view right? En these are the objections one often hear from morally serious unbelievers who try to understand.

Nope. It sure isn't. Christian Tradition does very little in the way of accusing God of evil -- shocking, I know. ::) "For he is a good God who alone loves mankind" is the traditional affirmation. Maybe it's a good thing you've finally come to an (ostensibly) non-Skeptical forum to learn about Christianity -- altho it's obviously taking you a while to adjust.
I liked the citation that God alone loves man. Never heard before. Where can I find it and what is the traditional view about God's foreknowledge in relation to freedom and predestination etc? Did God foresee eternal hell before creating the world?

Good gravy. Pardon my shock, but you really need to get to church. That's part of the prayers at almost any service, if not all of them.
I go to Church. Though I prefer not to take the eucharist since I do not deserve it in this condition, it would be to My condemnation. And I doubt God wants it. At least it feels wrong to take it before My heart says that is what God wants. And honestly, I have never heard at the liturgy that God ALONE loves mankind... Now... IF You dont mind, please answer the question about whether God from all eternity foreknew eternal torment in hell or not according to traditional theology...

I do mind. I do mind that you're wantonly dismissing a core of the Liturgy and instead ordering me to play your wretched little game. No thanks, and may God have mercy on your soul.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #157 on: June 13, 2017, 04:23:16 PM »
Anyway, in traditional theology, in the classical theist view, God foresaw the fatal consequences of creating man, whether those fatal consequences depends on man's fatal freedom or God's determinate Will but God did nothing to prevent these consequences. He  foresaw the perdition of many, but went along the line anyway. And I claim with confidence that this traditional view is a major reason to why many morally good people reject God and become atheists. It is the profound moral source of atheism.

You keep asserting this, every few posts, as tho that's going eventually to make it true.
As if what is true? This is the traditional view right? En these are the objections one often hear from morally serious unbelievers who try to understand.

Nope. It sure isn't. Christian Tradition does very little in the way of accusing God of evil -- shocking, I know. ::) "For he is a good God who alone loves mankind" is the traditional affirmation. Maybe it's a good thing you've finally come to an (ostensibly) non-Skeptical forum to learn about Christianity -- altho it's obviously taking you a while to adjust.
I liked the citation that God alone loves man. Never heard before. Where can I find it and what is the traditional view about God's foreknowledge in relation to freedom and predestination etc? Did God foresee eternal hell before creating the world?

Good gravy. Pardon my shock, but you really need to get to church. That's part of the prayers at almost any service, if not all of them.
I go to Church. Though I prefer not to take the eucharist since I do not deserve it in this condition, it would be to My condemnation. And I doubt God wants it. At least it feels wrong to take it before My heart says that is what God wants. And honestly, I have never heard at the liturgy that God ALONE loves mankind... Now... IF You dont mind, please answer the question about whether God from all eternity foreknew eternal torment in hell or not according to traditional theology...

I do mind. I do mind that you're wantonly dismissing a core of the Liturgy and instead ordering me to play your wretched little game. No thanks, and may God have mercy on your soul.
... "For You, O God, are good and love mankind"... That is What it says in the liturgy I have heard. Not the Word "alone". Not in the church I go to. Now I don't mean to be rude but I take it that you don't want to answer my question because you either now that it creates a moral problem, or because you know the answer and it again creates a moral answer. May God have mercy on you too... Sorry if I make you feel disgusted over my soul
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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #158 on: June 13, 2017, 05:43:25 PM »
Who else created you?
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #159 on: June 13, 2017, 05:50:22 PM »
If only you spent half the youthful energy on studying the plan of salvation and its implications that you spend on the plan of damnation.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #160 on: June 14, 2017, 01:08:30 AM »
If only you spent half the youthful energy on studying the plan of salvation and its implications that you spend on the plan of damnation.
I find it selfish to spend my life working out my salvation. What about everybody else? I don't want to be a utilitarian. God either saves me or he doesn't. It would be better if I acquired a heart where I spend my energy caring about helping others being saved. Wouldn't it be better to prefer to alone be damned while rest of mankind is saved than to alone be saved while the rest of mankind is damned?
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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #161 on: June 14, 2017, 01:10:24 AM »
Who else created you?
I believe God created me yes. I just believe that all juridical interpretations of the Christian mysteries are humiliating. They humiliate both man and God.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #162 on: June 14, 2017, 01:24:20 AM »
And if God foresaw eternal hell from all eternity he indirectly created it. That seems blasphemous to me. It is a massive problem.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #163 on: June 14, 2017, 01:26:07 AM »
And if God foresaw eternal hell from all eternity he indirectly created it. That seems blasphemous to me. It is a massive problem.
IOW you want man's free will to be free from the consequences of his choices.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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and urgent strife sheds blood.
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if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #164 on: June 14, 2017, 01:47:33 AM »
Who else created you?
I believe God created me yes. I just believe that all juridical interpretations of the Christian mysteries are humiliating. They humiliate both man and God.

Did anyone else create you or God ALONE create you?  Don't overthink it, just answer the question with simplicity.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 01:48:15 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #165 on: June 14, 2017, 05:29:19 AM »
And if God foresaw eternal hell from all eternity he indirectly created it. That seems blasphemous to me. It is a massive problem.
IOW you want man's free will to be free from the consequences of his choices.
I dont' want to be rude but it doesnt seem like You understand What I Am saying. Did our free Will and freedom to Make choices precede God's creation of us? Is that What You suggest?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #166 on: June 14, 2017, 05:32:52 AM »
Who else created you?
I believe God created me yes. I just believe that all juridical interpretations of the Christian mysteries are humiliating. They humiliate both man and God.

Did anyone else create you or God ALONE create you?  Don't overthink it, just answer the question with simplicity.
God created My being. Not My non-being. And it might be that IF freedom is real, then God didn't create freedom and has no power over freedom and its potentially fatal consequences which is non-being. Either that(which is My belief and takes away any responsibility of hell and evil from God) or freedom and free-Will are illusions. That is what I believe.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #167 on: June 14, 2017, 06:43:29 AM »
So God created a part of your being or ALL of your being (assume freedom is a part of your being)?
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #168 on: June 14, 2017, 06:58:28 AM »
So God created a part of your being or ALL of your being (assume freedom is a part of your being)?
Have you ever heard of Jacob Boehme's idea of ungrund, or Eckehart's idea of the gottheit, that is, the godhead? I believe these are expressions of their mystic intuitions of some sort of meonic freedom, where freedom is uncreated and independent of man. Man is part of this uncreated freedom as well as being made in the divine image. Now God created man, but he did not create man's freedom. Freedom runs the risk of having fatal consequences, since it can seperate man from God. Therefore, since God has no power over our freedom, the only thing he can do to truly overcome the fatal consequences of freedom is to step down into the abyss that comes from meonic freedom and release man from its force, which is what he does through the cross, by sacrificial love. And by demonstrating his powerlessness over our freedom through sacrificial love on the cross, he demonstrates his power over its fatal consequences, for whosoever is willing to accept his sacrifice. He freely dies to release us from the death that has come through our missuse of freedom, and by hus resurrection shows his own freedom , namely that he is free and has the last word: He is all-powerful over being, he can not be lost because of freedom, he can not missuse his freedom, and therefore death has no power over him. God created all of my BEING, but not the freedom that can lead to non-being, that is that which can lead to sin and death.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 07:01:49 AM by beebert »
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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #169 on: June 14, 2017, 07:52:55 AM »
You know Beebert, I didn't read any of what you wrote after the word Boeme because frankly I don't care about the first few words.  You seem to have trouble with being simple in life in answering the question.  You will never understand the love of God if you don't let go with some of the silly complexities of your philosophical ramblings.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 07:53:19 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline biro

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #170 on: June 14, 2017, 07:56:46 AM »
You neglect the fact that people can choose whether or not to sin.

People receive the consequences of their actions.

They can also choose to repent.

God is not the author of sin.

You have no business blaming God.
I don't blame God. I question the traditional view and its logical consequences. We dont know all the mysteries that is behind the truth. At least least have the Courage to think and ask questions. Why not answering with your view of the problem I presented?

I did.

You continue to ignore our very numerous opportunities to repent.

You don't have to go to Hell.
My only weakness is, well, never mind

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God
« Reply #171 on: June 14, 2017, 08:14:10 AM »
You know Beebert, I didn't read any of what you wrote after the word Boeme because frankly I don't care about the first few words.  You seem to have trouble with being simple in life in answering the question.  You will never understand the love of God if you don't let go with some of the silly complexities of your philosophical ramblings.
Dont call it silly because it isnt.  If you dont care to understand then that is okay. But your response is typical this site and a typical that I get from all christians I have met. Please read what I wrote, specially since you asked the question that made me reaponse. And after that you can call me silly if that is still what you think. But please, at least try to be open-minded.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 08:19:08 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #172 on: June 14, 2017, 08:16:11 AM »
You neglect the fact that people can choose whether or not to sin.

People receive the consequences of their actions.

They can also choose to repent.

God is not the author of sin.

You have no business blaming God.
I don't blame God. I question the traditional view and its logical consequences. We dont know all the mysteries that is behind the truth. At least least have the Courage to think and ask questions. Why not answering with your view of the problem I presented?

I did.

You continue to ignore our very numerous opportunities to repent.

You don't have to go to Hell.
I cant repent.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God
« Reply #173 on: June 14, 2017, 08:39:06 AM »
You know Beebert, I didn't read any of what you wrote after the word Boeme because frankly I don't care about the first few words.  You seem to have trouble with being simple in life in answering the question.  You will never understand the love of God if you don't let go with some of the silly complexities of your philosophical ramblings.
Dont call it silly because it isnt.  If you dont care to understand then that is okay. But your response is typical this site and a typical that I get from all christians I have met. Please read what I wrote, specially since you asked the question that made me reaponse. And after that you can call me silly if that is still what you think. But please, at least try to be open-minded.

No, I'm not going to be complicit in your own unwillingness to be simple in your own personal life.  Simplicity is a virtue.  Learn it and embrace it.  I didn't ask for an essay of an answer.  I asked something very very very simple that I personally could have answered in a few words.

And I'm not doing this to frustrate you.  You bring upon yourself your own frustration.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 08:40:19 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Alkis

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #174 on: June 14, 2017, 08:56:03 AM »
And if God foresaw eternal hell from all eternity he indirectly created it. That seems blasphemous to me. It is a massive problem.

Do you mean why God created evil people if he foreknows that they will be evil and inherit eternal death?
For You keep my lamp burning; Lord my God You illumine my darkness. (Psalm 17:29)

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #175 on: June 14, 2017, 08:59:58 AM »
And if God foresaw eternal hell from all eternity he indirectly created it. That seems blasphemous to me. It is a massive problem.

Do you mean why God created evil people if he foreknows that they will be evil and inherit eternal death?
That is one of the things I wonder yes. Do you have an answer?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God
« Reply #176 on: June 14, 2017, 09:00:49 AM »
You know Beebert, I didn't read any of what you wrote after the word Boeme because frankly I don't care about the first few words.  You seem to have trouble with being simple in life in answering the question.  You will never understand the love of God if you don't let go with some of the silly complexities of your philosophical ramblings.
Dont call it silly because it isnt.  If you dont care to understand then that is okay. But your response is typical this site and a typical that I get from all christians I have met. Please read what I wrote, specially since you asked the question that made me reaponse. And after that you can call me silly if that is still what you think. But please, at least try to be open-minded.

No, I'm not going to be complicit in your own unwillingness to be simple in your own personal life.  Simplicity is a virtue.  Learn it and embrace it.  I didn't ask for an essay of an answer.  I asked something very very very simple that I personally could have answered in a few words.

And I'm not doing this to frustrate you.  You bring upon yourself your own frustration.
Simplicity is a virtue. But not stupidity. And especially not collective stupidity.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #177 on: June 14, 2017, 09:03:22 AM »
Suit yourself Beebert.  You obviously consider yourself smart enough that you do not know whether God created you or not.  You be the judge of how stupid that sounds.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #178 on: June 14, 2017, 09:04:47 AM »
And if God foresaw eternal hell from all eternity he indirectly created it. That seems blasphemous to me. It is a massive problem.

Do you mean why God created evil people if he foreknows that they will be evil and inherit eternal death?
That is one of the things I wonder yes. Do you have an answer?

Our holy Father, saint John of Damascus said a lot of things about evil and hell. That is why God created even evil people:
"God in His goodness brought what exists into being out of nothing, and has foreknowledge of what will exist in the future. If, therefore, they were not to exist in the future, they would neither be evil in the future nor would they be foreknown. For knowledge is of what exists and foreknowledge is of what will surely exist in the future. For simple being comes first and then good or evil being. But if the very existence of those, who through the goodness of God are in the future to exist, were to be prevented by the fact that they were to become evil of their own choice, evil would have prevailed over the goodness of God. Wherefore God makes all His works good, but each becomes of its own choice good or evil. Although, then, the Lord said, Goad were it for that man that he had never been barn, He said it in condemnation not of His own creation but of the evil which His own creation had acquired by his own choice and through his own heedlessness. For the heedlessness that marks man's judgment made His Creator's beneficence of no profit to him. It is just as if any one, when he had obtained riches and dominion from a king, were to lord it over his benefactor, who, when he has worsted him, will punish him as he deserves, if he should see him keeping hold of the sovereignty to the end."
Exact exposition of the orthodox faith, Book 4, Chapter 21

For You keep my lamp burning; Lord my God You illumine my darkness. (Psalm 17:29)

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #179 on: June 14, 2017, 09:05:54 AM »
Suit yourself Beebert.  You obviously consider yourself smart enough that you do not know whether God created you or not.  You be the judge of how stupid that sounds.
Oh my... Is it impossible for people to understand what I am saying? I DO BELIEVE God created me.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)