Author Topic: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?  (Read 6584 times)

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Offline Hinterlander

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Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?

Offline hecma925

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2016, 04:15:10 PM »
Was he Orthodox when he wrote it?
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2016, 04:21:27 PM »
Was he Orthodox when he wrote it?

Augustine is an Orthodox saint. What are you talking about?

As for an Orthodox assessment, I'm not sure. If there is one, it will undoubtedly disagree with his predestinarian beliefs in it. Furthermore, they might be mad about Augustine's casual abandonment of the necessity of the Roman Empire for a Christian faith.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 04:24:46 PM by Rohzek »
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2016, 04:40:09 PM »
I thought there was many critiques. Augustine's origin as a member of the Gnostic heresy who eventually converted to Holy Orthodoxy and is now counted among the Saints of God unfortunately colored some of his later theology, not to mention his ignorance of Hebrew and Greek,  usage of misleading and corrupt Latin versions of the Bible and the Latin theology that he was by default inclined toward.

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« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 04:41:09 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline Georgios Scholarios

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2016, 06:00:32 PM »
The City of God (along with the Confessions) wasn't translated into Greek until the 1900s.

Of course, there have been Orthodox saints who have known Latin (e.g., Gennadios Scholarios, Peter Mogila, and Nikodemos the Hagiorite I think). I don't know whether they read it. Other than that, I do know that certain saints agreed with St. Augustine concerning ideas that can be found in The City of God. Nektarios of Aegina, for example, agreed with Augustine about the existence of valid sacraments outside of the Church, which I think shows up in The City of God, although maybe he found in it in another work by Augustine.

Finally, I'd add that it doesn't make much sense to me to ask for an "Orthodox assessment" of a work by an Orthodox saint who was looked on with respect by Gregory Palamas and Mark of Ephesus.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 06:04:49 PM by Georgios Scholarios »

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2016, 06:03:36 PM »
The City of God (along with the Confessions) wasn't translated into Greek until the 1900s.

Of course, there have been Orthodox saints who have known Latin (e.g., Gennadios Scholarios, Peter Mogila, and Nikodemos the Hagiorite I think). I don't know whether they read it. In addition, ideas found in The City of God can be found in his other writings. St. Nektarios, for example, agreed with Augustine about the existence of valid sacraments outside of the Church, which I think shows up in The City of God.

Finally, it doesn't make much sense to me to ask for an "Orthodox assessment" of a work by an Orthodox saint who was looked on with respect by Gregory Palamas and Mark of Ephesus.

I agree. He is a Orthodox theologian, Saint and God-bearing Father. He might've made mistakes, but so did the Apostles, they denied Christ! That doesn't take away from their holiness and Orthodoxy.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”- St. Ambrose of Milan

"Now one cannot be a half-hearted Christian, but only entirely or not at all." -Fr. Seraphim Rose

"He who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen." (1 John 4:20)

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2016, 06:07:33 PM »
The City of God (along with the Confessions) wasn't translated into Greek until the 1900s.

Of course, there have been Orthodox saints who have known Latin (e.g., Gennadios Scholarios, Peter Mogila, and Nikodemos the Hagiorite I think). I don't know whether they read it. In addition, ideas found in The City of God can be found in his other writings. St. Nektarios, for example, agreed with Augustine about the existence of valid sacraments outside of the Church, which I think shows up in The City of God.

Finally, it doesn't make much sense to me to ask for an "Orthodox assessment" of a work by an Orthodox saint who was looked on with respect by Gregory Palamas and Mark of Ephesus.

I agree. He is a Orthodox theologian, Saint and God-bearing Father. He might've made mistakes, but so did the Apostles, they denied Christ! That doesn't take away from their holiness and Orthodoxy.

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison.  While I too venerate and admire St. Augustine, he did not live long enough to retract most of his teachings we may have issues with today.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2016, 06:10:21 PM »
The City of God (along with the Confessions) wasn't translated into Greek until the 1900s.

Of course, there have been Orthodox saints who have known Latin (e.g., Gennadios Scholarios, Peter Mogila, and Nikodemos the Hagiorite I think). I don't know whether they read it. In addition, ideas found in The City of God can be found in his other writings. St. Nektarios, for example, agreed with Augustine about the existence of valid sacraments outside of the Church, which I think shows up in The City of God.

Finally, it doesn't make much sense to me to ask for an "Orthodox assessment" of a work by an Orthodox saint who was looked on with respect by Gregory Palamas and Mark of Ephesus.

I agree. He is a Orthodox theologian, Saint and God-bearing Father. He might've made mistakes, but so did the Apostles, they denied Christ! That doesn't take away from their holiness and Orthodoxy.

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison.  While I too venerate and admire St. Augustine, he did not live long enough to retract most of his teachings we may have issues with today.

There are people who preach Ss. Isaac the Syrian and Gregory of Nyssa on universal reconciliation and St. Irenaeus on Chilasm (rejected by the Second Ecumenical Council), but they are still Orthodox Fathers.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 06:11:00 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”- St. Ambrose of Milan

"Now one cannot be a half-hearted Christian, but only entirely or not at all." -Fr. Seraphim Rose

"He who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen." (1 John 4:20)

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2016, 06:37:06 PM »
The City of God (along with the Confessions) wasn't translated into Greek until the 1900s.

Of course, there have been Orthodox saints who have known Latin (e.g., Gennadios Scholarios, Peter Mogila, and Nikodemos the Hagiorite I think). I don't know whether they read it. In addition, ideas found in The City of God can be found in his other writings. St. Nektarios, for example, agreed with Augustine about the existence of valid sacraments outside of the Church, which I think shows up in The City of God.

Finally, it doesn't make much sense to me to ask for an "Orthodox assessment" of a work by an Orthodox saint who was looked on with respect by Gregory Palamas and Mark of Ephesus.

I agree. He is a Orthodox theologian, Saint and God-bearing Father. He might've made mistakes, but so did the Apostles, they denied Christ! That doesn't take away from their holiness and Orthodoxy.

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison.  While I too venerate and admire St. Augustine, he did not live long enough to retract most of his teachings we may have issues with today.

There are people who preach Ss. Isaac the Syrian and Gregory of Nyssa on universal reconciliation and St. Irenaeus on Chilasm (rejected by the Second Ecumenical Council), but they are still Orthodox Fathers.

Origen.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2016, 06:39:00 PM »
The City of God (along with the Confessions) wasn't translated into Greek until the 1900s.

Of course, there have been Orthodox saints who have known Latin (e.g., Gennadios Scholarios, Peter Mogila, and Nikodemos the Hagiorite I think). I don't know whether they read it. In addition, ideas found in The City of God can be found in his other writings. St. Nektarios, for example, agreed with Augustine about the existence of valid sacraments outside of the Church, which I think shows up in The City of God.

Finally, it doesn't make much sense to me to ask for an "Orthodox assessment" of a work by an Orthodox saint who was looked on with respect by Gregory Palamas and Mark of Ephesus.

I agree. He is a Orthodox theologian, Saint and God-bearing Father. He might've made mistakes, but so did the Apostles, they denied Christ! That doesn't take away from their holiness and Orthodoxy.

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison.  While I too venerate and admire St. Augustine, he did not live long enough to retract most of his teachings we may have issues with today.

There are people who preach Ss. Isaac the Syrian and Gregory of Nyssa on universal reconciliation and St. Irenaeus on Chilasm (rejected by the Second Ecumenical Council), but they are still Orthodox Fathers.

Origen.

Tertullian. I just don't see why Augustine is criticized when other Fathers were in error. St. Leo was in error about Christology, as non-Chalcedonians believe and I personally believe. Although I consider him, and the Church considers him, a Saint. Same with St. Patrick who used a modalist analogy for the Holy Trinity.

It just seems like Easterners hating on Western theology.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 06:40:16 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”- St. Ambrose of Milan

"Now one cannot be a half-hearted Christian, but only entirely or not at all." -Fr. Seraphim Rose

"He who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen." (1 John 4:20)

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2016, 06:42:28 PM »
The City of God (along with the Confessions) wasn't translated into Greek until the 1900s.

Of course, there have been Orthodox saints who have known Latin (e.g., Gennadios Scholarios, Peter Mogila, and Nikodemos the Hagiorite I think). I don't know whether they read it. In addition, ideas found in The City of God can be found in his other writings. St. Nektarios, for example, agreed with Augustine about the existence of valid sacraments outside of the Church, which I think shows up in The City of God.

Finally, it doesn't make much sense to me to ask for an "Orthodox assessment" of a work by an Orthodox saint who was looked on with respect by Gregory Palamas and Mark of Ephesus.

I agree. He is a Orthodox theologian, Saint and God-bearing Father. He might've made mistakes, but so did the Apostles, they denied Christ! That doesn't take away from their holiness and Orthodoxy.

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison.  While I too venerate and admire St. Augustine, he did not live long enough to retract most of his teachings we may have issues with today.

There are people who preach Ss. Isaac the Syrian and Gregory of Nyssa on universal reconciliation and St. Irenaeus on Chilasm (rejected by the Second Ecumenical Council), but they are still Orthodox Fathers.

Better comparisons

The City of God (along with the Confessions) wasn't translated into Greek until the 1900s.

Of course, there have been Orthodox saints who have known Latin (e.g., Gennadios Scholarios, Peter Mogila, and Nikodemos the Hagiorite I think). I don't know whether they read it. In addition, ideas found in The City of God can be found in his other writings. St. Nektarios, for example, agreed with Augustine about the existence of valid sacraments outside of the Church, which I think shows up in The City of God.

Finally, it doesn't make much sense to me to ask for an "Orthodox assessment" of a work by an Orthodox saint who was looked on with respect by Gregory Palamas and Mark of Ephesus.

I agree. He is a Orthodox theologian, Saint and God-bearing Father. He might've made mistakes, but so did the Apostles, they denied Christ! That doesn't take away from their holiness and Orthodoxy.

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison.  While I too venerate and admire St. Augustine, he did not live long enough to retract most of his teachings we may have issues with today.

There are people who preach Ss. Isaac the Syrian and Gregory of Nyssa on universal reconciliation and St. Irenaeus on Chilasm (rejected by the Second Ecumenical Council), but they are still Orthodox Fathers.

Origen.

The best comparison...one who I would like to see canonized someday

The City of God (along with the Confessions) wasn't translated into Greek until the 1900s.

Of course, there have been Orthodox saints who have known Latin (e.g., Gennadios Scholarios, Peter Mogila, and Nikodemos the Hagiorite I think). I don't know whether they read it. In addition, ideas found in The City of God can be found in his other writings. St. Nektarios, for example, agreed with Augustine about the existence of valid sacraments outside of the Church, which I think shows up in The City of God.

Finally, it doesn't make much sense to me to ask for an "Orthodox assessment" of a work by an Orthodox saint who was looked on with respect by Gregory Palamas and Mark of Ephesus.

I agree. He is a Orthodox theologian, Saint and God-bearing Father. He might've made mistakes, but so did the Apostles, they denied Christ! That doesn't take away from their holiness and Orthodoxy.

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison.  While I too venerate and admire St. Augustine, he did not live long enough to retract most of his teachings we may have issues with today.

There are people who preach Ss. Isaac the Syrian and Gregory of Nyssa on universal reconciliation and St. Irenaeus on Chilasm (rejected by the Second Ecumenical Council), but they are still Orthodox Fathers.

Origen.

Tertullian. I just don't see why Augustine is criticized when other Fathers were in error. St. Leo was in error about Christology, as non-Chalcedonians believe and I personally believe. Although I consider him, and the Church considers him, a Saint. Same with St. Patrick who used a modalist analogy for the Holy Trinity.

It just seems like Easterners hating on Western theology.

I respect that, though to be fair, not many Chalcedonians will agree with you.  But then again, I'm not one to comment any further on this specific matter
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2016, 06:45:38 PM »
The City of God (along with the Confessions) wasn't translated into Greek until the 1900s.

Of course, there have been Orthodox saints who have known Latin (e.g., Gennadios Scholarios, Peter Mogila, and Nikodemos the Hagiorite I think). I don't know whether they read it. In addition, ideas found in The City of God can be found in his other writings. St. Nektarios, for example, agreed with Augustine about the existence of valid sacraments outside of the Church, which I think shows up in The City of God.

Finally, it doesn't make much sense to me to ask for an "Orthodox assessment" of a work by an Orthodox saint who was looked on with respect by Gregory Palamas and Mark of Ephesus.

I agree. He is a Orthodox theologian, Saint and God-bearing Father. He might've made mistakes, but so did the Apostles, they denied Christ! That doesn't take away from their holiness and Orthodoxy.

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison.  While I too venerate and admire St. Augustine, he did not live long enough to retract most of his teachings we may have issues with today.

There are people who preach Ss. Isaac the Syrian and Gregory of Nyssa on universal reconciliation and St. Irenaeus on Chilasm (rejected by the Second Ecumenical Council), but they are still Orthodox Fathers.

Origen.

The best comparison...one who I would like to see canonized someday

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2016, 06:50:00 PM »
I bought a wooden reprint "icon" of this.  I put it in my study room when I read or study for exams.

If I had enough money though, I want a customized one.  Some of the saints named like Maximus the Confessor or Cyril the Great does not really have that strong admirable connection to him as the Cappadocians or Evagrius much later
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2016, 06:55:36 PM »
The City of God (along with the Confessions) wasn't translated into Greek until the 1900s.

Of course, there have been Orthodox saints who have known Latin (e.g., Gennadios Scholarios, Peter Mogila, and Nikodemos the Hagiorite I think). I don't know whether they read it. In addition, ideas found in The City of God can be found in his other writings. St. Nektarios, for example, agreed with Augustine about the existence of valid sacraments outside of the Church, which I think shows up in The City of God.

Finally, it doesn't make much sense to me to ask for an "Orthodox assessment" of a work by an Orthodox saint who was looked on with respect by Gregory Palamas and Mark of Ephesus.

I agree. He is a Orthodox theologian, Saint and God-bearing Father. He might've made mistakes, but so did the Apostles, they denied Christ! That doesn't take away from their holiness and Orthodoxy.

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison.  While I too venerate and admire St. Augustine, he did not live long enough to retract most of his teachings we may have issues with today.

There are people who preach Ss. Isaac the Syrian and Gregory of Nyssa on universal reconciliation and St. Irenaeus on Chilasm (rejected by the Second Ecumenical Council), but they are still Orthodox Fathers.

Origen.

The best comparison...one who I would like to see canonized someday



That is the funniest thing I've ever seen.  ;D
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”- St. Ambrose of Milan

"Now one cannot be a half-hearted Christian, but only entirely or not at all." -Fr. Seraphim Rose

"He who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen." (1 John 4:20)

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2016, 06:57:34 PM »
The City of God (along with the Confessions) wasn't translated into Greek until the 1900s.

Of course, there have been Orthodox saints who have known Latin (e.g., Gennadios Scholarios, Peter Mogila, and Nikodemos the Hagiorite I think). I don't know whether they read it. In addition, ideas found in The City of God can be found in his other writings. St. Nektarios, for example, agreed with Augustine about the existence of valid sacraments outside of the Church, which I think shows up in The City of God.

Finally, it doesn't make much sense to me to ask for an "Orthodox assessment" of a work by an Orthodox saint who was looked on with respect by Gregory Palamas and Mark of Ephesus.

I agree. He is a Orthodox theologian, Saint and God-bearing Father. He might've made mistakes, but so did the Apostles, they denied Christ! That doesn't take away from their holiness and Orthodoxy.

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison.  While I too venerate and admire St. Augustine, he did not live long enough to retract most of his teachings we may have issues with today.

There are people who preach Ss. Isaac the Syrian and Gregory of Nyssa on universal reconciliation and St. Irenaeus on Chilasm (rejected by the Second Ecumenical Council), but they are still Orthodox Fathers.

Origen.

The best comparison...one who I would like to see canonized someday



That is the funniest thing I've ever seen.  ;D

Many of the saints disagree with you. 
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2016, 07:15:57 PM »
Augustine himself, close to the end of his life, began writing his "retractions" but never finished them.   In them one might find a kind of rebuttal and critique of his own previous writings, however incomplete it may be.   

Quote
I am reviewing my works - books, letters and sermons - and as it were, with the pen of a censor, I am indicating what dissatisfies me.  For, truly, only an ignorant man will have the hardihood to criticize me for criticizing my own errors.   But if he maintains that I should not have said those things which, indeed, dissatisfied me later, he speaks the truth and concurs with me.  In fact, he and I are critics of the same thing...

without a doubt, many things can be collected from my numerous disputations which, if not false, yet may certainly seem or even be proved unnecessary.


https://www.amazon.com/Retractations-Fathers-Church-Patristic/dp/0813209706

Augustine lived in difficult times in an area under siege.   Anyone trying to wrestle with his writing needs to learn as much as they can about the threats he faced, his goals in standing up to them, and his later writings which either abrogate or nuance the contingency of many of his arguments.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2016, 08:18:01 PM »
The City of God (along with the Confessions) wasn't translated into Greek until the 1900s.

Of course, there have been Orthodox saints who have known Latin (e.g., Gennadios Scholarios, Peter Mogila, and Nikodemos the Hagiorite I think). I don't know whether they read it. In addition, ideas found in The City of God can be found in his other writings. St. Nektarios, for example, agreed with Augustine about the existence of valid sacraments outside of the Church, which I think shows up in The City of God.

Finally, it doesn't make much sense to me to ask for an "Orthodox assessment" of a work by an Orthodox saint who was looked on with respect by Gregory Palamas and Mark of Ephesus.

I agree. He is a Orthodox theologian, Saint and God-bearing Father. He might've made mistakes, but so did the Apostles, they denied Christ! That doesn't take away from their holiness and Orthodoxy.

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison.  While I too venerate and admire St. Augustine, he did not live long enough to retract most of his teachings we may have issues with today.

There are people who preach Ss. Isaac the Syrian and Gregory of Nyssa on universal reconciliation and St. Irenaeus on Chilasm (rejected by the Second Ecumenical Council), but they are still Orthodox Fathers.

Origen.

The best comparison...one who I would like to see canonized someday



That is the funniest thing I've ever seen.  ;D

Many of the saints disagree with you.

Indeed. I don't doubt Origen's relevance in the slightest. He was one of the most influential Christian writers in the whole history of the Church, it's a shame he was anathematized.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”- St. Ambrose of Milan

"Now one cannot be a half-hearted Christian, but only entirely or not at all." -Fr. Seraphim Rose

"He who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen." (1 John 4:20)

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2016, 10:53:13 PM »
Augustine himself, close to the end of his life, began writing his "retractions" but never finished them.   In them one might find a kind of rebuttal and critique of his own previous writings, however incomplete it may be.   

Quote
I am reviewing my works - books, letters and sermons - and as it were, with the pen of a censor, I am indicating what dissatisfies me.  For, truly, only an ignorant man will have the hardihood to criticize me for criticizing my own errors.   But if he maintains that I should not have said those things which, indeed, dissatisfied me later, he speaks the truth and concurs with me.  In fact, he and I are critics of the same thing...

without a doubt, many things can be collected from my numerous disputations which, if not false, yet may certainly seem or even be proved unnecessary.


https://www.amazon.com/Retractations-Fathers-Church-Patristic/dp/0813209706

Augustine lived in difficult times in an area under siege.   Anyone trying to wrestle with his writing needs to learn as much as they can about the threats he faced, his goals in standing up to them, and his later writings which either abrogate or nuance the contingency of many of his arguments.

I'm very sympathetic to this actually.  Perhaps if one assumes that he might have retracted what many Orthodox would frown upon in his writings, he might be comparable to the Apostles in this way, I suppose.
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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2016, 11:05:58 PM »
Augustine himself, close to the end of his life, began writing his "retractions" but never finished them.   In them one might find a kind of rebuttal and critique of his own previous writings, however incomplete it may be.   

Quote
I am reviewing my works - books, letters and sermons - and as it were, with the pen of a censor, I am indicating what dissatisfies me.  For, truly, only an ignorant man will have the hardihood to criticize me for criticizing my own errors.   But if he maintains that I should not have said those things which, indeed, dissatisfied me later, he speaks the truth and concurs with me.  In fact, he and I are critics of the same thing...

without a doubt, many things can be collected from my numerous disputations which, if not false, yet may certainly seem or even be proved unnecessary.


https://www.amazon.com/Retractations-Fathers-Church-Patristic/dp/0813209706

Augustine lived in difficult times in an area under siege.   Anyone trying to wrestle with his writing needs to learn as much as they can about the threats he faced, his goals in standing up to them, and his later writings which either abrogate or nuance the contingency of many of his arguments.

I'm very sympathetic to this actually.  Perhaps if one assumes that he might have retracted what many Orthodox would frown upon in his writings, he might be comparable to the Apostles in this way, I suppose.
Didn't he humbly retract after St. Jerome exhortated him to rethink a certain theological issue? A bishop told this to me once, but as I google it I can only find their debate on the Latin translation of the OT, which I doubt to have been what the bishop told me about.
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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2016, 11:14:56 PM »
I didn't really hear of the story with St. Jerome, but what I only know is what Onesimus wrote, which is that St. Augustine had an unfinished work called "retractions", correcting a few of his past written mistakes.
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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2016, 11:17:42 PM »
I tried reading it once but gave up before he stopped talking about how lame the Roman gods are, or something like that. I forget. Also it had not entered my mind to become Orthodox at the time, so "tl;dr" doesn't qualify as an Orthodox critique ::)
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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2016, 11:18:27 PM »
I didn't really hear of the story with St. Jerome, but what I only know is what Onesimus wrote, which is that St. Augustine had an unfinished work called "retractions", correcting a few of his past written mistakes.
Yes, there's this one. I have no idea if any of it makes his previous work significantly more Orthodox, but it already shows his intellectual humility, aside his radical mind change on conversion despite being such an initiate.
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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2016, 01:57:02 AM »
I thought there was many critiques. Augustine's origin as a member of the Gnostic heresy who eventually converted to Holy Orthodoxy and is now counted among the Saints of God unfortunately colored some of his later theology, not to mention his ignorance of Hebrew and Greek,  usage of misleading and corrupt Latin versions of the Bible and the Latin theology that he was by default inclined toward.

St. Augustine pray for us!

At risk of being pedantic, St. Augustine was not a Gnostic, but rather a Manichaean. The former is a fairly non-scientific term to label a large group of distinct, though at times interrelated, religious movements; most of the movements called "Gnostic" never called themselves that. The only group that did were the Mandaeans, whose name means more or less "gnostic." Manichaeism has the distinction of being the only world religion to die out, and its practice focused less on "secret knowledge" than a belief that the bodies of the "elect" functioned as refineries freeing light particles from food and returning them to the Father of Lights; the "hearers," of which the young Augustine was one, primarily supported the physical needs of the elect.

St. Augustine pray for us!
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2016, 02:19:33 AM »
Just a note, St. Irenaeus said of the followers of Carpocrates: "They style themselves Gnostics." (Against Heresies, 1.25.6)
« Last Edit: November 23, 2016, 02:20:46 AM by Asteriktos »
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Offline jeffinjapan

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Was he Orthodox when he wrote it?
Augustine is an Orthodox saint.

Well...that depends on who you talk to or what books you read. There certainly is not a consensus that he is a Saint.
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Offline beebert

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Augustine had some admirable qualities. His psychological depth is impressing for example. Though some of his ideas are outright evil and sadistic.
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[quote/]There are people who preach Ss. Isaac the Syrian and Gregory of Nyssa on universal reconciliation and St. Irenaeus on Chilasm (rejected by the Second Ecumenical Council), but they are still Orthodox Fathers.[/quote]

Universal reconciliation as expressed by St. Isaac the Syrian was NOT rejected by the Second Ecumenical Council.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 05:03:57 AM by jeffinjapan »
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The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis.

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Whoever rejects the possibility and Hope of universal salvation is a nihilist and a selfish heavenly utilitarist.
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Nektarios of Aegina, for example, agreed with Augustine about the existence of valid sacraments outside of the Church, which I think shows up in The City of God, although maybe he found in it in another work by Augustine.

That is really interesting! I have wondered for quite a while now whether (& if so how) it's possible, from an Orthodox point of view, for there to be valid sacraments outside the Church. I don't want to derail the thread, but is there any chance you could briefly point me to some reading on this position e.g. where St Nektarios of Aegina and St Augustine each discuss this?? Thank you so much  :)
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Was he Orthodox when he wrote it?
Augustine is an Orthodox saint.

Well...that depends on who you talk to or what books you read. There certainly is not a consensus that he is a Saint.
He was confirmed as a saint by an ecumenical council, commemorated in many calendars, and deeply admired by many Orthodox saints (pre- and post-Schism), the beef of a couple of modern writers can't "de-saint" him.
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Whoever rejects the possibility and Hope of universal salvation is a nihilist and a selfish heavenly utilitarist.

Matthew 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

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Whoever rejects the possibility and Hope of universal salvation is a nihilist and a selfish heavenly utilitarist.

Matthew 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
So then what do you pray and Hope for? Yourself and you own bliss and nothing else?

Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

God wants it. So should you.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 08:21:18 AM by beebert »
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Offline primuspilus

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Whoever rejects the possibility and Hope of universal salvation is a nihilist and a selfish heavenly utilitarist.

Matthew 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
So then what do you pray and Hope for? Yourself and you own bliss and nothing else?

Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

God wants it. So should you.
Hope for the best, expect the worst.

PP
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Offline beebert

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Whoever rejects the possibility and Hope of universal salvation is a nihilist and a selfish heavenly utilitarist.

Matthew 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
So then what do you pray and Hope for? Yourself and you own bliss and nothing else?

Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

God wants it. So should you.
Hope for the best, expect the worst.

PP
Why not Hope for the best and expect nothing?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline primuspilus

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Whoever rejects the possibility and Hope of universal salvation is a nihilist and a selfish heavenly utilitarist.

Matthew 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
So then what do you pray and Hope for? Yourself and you own bliss and nothing else?

Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

God wants it. So should you.
Hope for the best, expect the worst.

PP
Why not Hope for the best and expect nothing?
because I'm a human being who is honest with himself.

PP
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Gregory the Great

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Offline beebert

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Whoever rejects the possibility and Hope of universal salvation is a nihilist and a selfish heavenly utilitarist.

Matthew 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
So then what do you pray and Hope for? Yourself and you own bliss and nothing else?

Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

God wants it. So should you.
Hope for the best, expect the worst.

PP
Why not Hope for the best and expect nothing?
because I'm a human being who is honest with himself.

PP
Then Maybe it is best to leave the judgment to God... And meanwhile be inspired by the honesty of Moses when he said "But now, if you will forgive their sin—but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written.” in Exodus 32:32. Or as Paul in Romans 9:3: "For my people, my Jewish brothers and sisters. I would be willing to be forever cursed--cut off from Christ!--if that would save them.". Or why not Christ himself when he said  "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." in Luke 23:24
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Whoever rejects the possibility and Hope of universal salvation is a nihilist and a selfish heavenly utilitarist.

Matthew 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
So then what do you pray and Hope for? Yourself and you own bliss and nothing else?

Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

God wants it. So should you.
Hope for the best, expect the worst.

PP
Why not Hope for the best and expect nothing?
because I'm a human being who is honest with himself.

PP
Then Maybe it is best to leave the judgment to God... And meanwhile be inspired by the honesty of Moses when he said "But now, if you will forgive their sin—but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written.” in Exodus 32:32. Or as Paul in Romans 9:3: "For my people, my Jewish brothers and sisters. I would be willing to be forever cursed--cut off from Christ!--if that would save them.". Or why not Christ himself when he said  "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." in Luke 23:24

And yet, somehow, all of them managed to avoid long ranting insults of God, on the internet or anywhere.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Whoever rejects the possibility and Hope of universal salvation is a nihilist and a selfish heavenly utilitarist.

Matthew 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
So then what do you pray and Hope for? Yourself and you own bliss and nothing else?

Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

God wants it. So should you.
Hope for the best, expect the worst.

PP
Why not Hope for the best and expect nothing?
because I'm a human being who is honest with himself.

PP
Then Maybe it is best to leave the judgment to God... And meanwhile be inspired by the honesty of Moses when he said "But now, if you will forgive their sin—but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written.” in Exodus 32:32. Or as Paul in Romans 9:3: "For my people, my Jewish brothers and sisters. I would be willing to be forever cursed--cut off from Christ!--if that would save them.". Or why not Christ himself when he said  "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." in Luke 23:24

And yet, somehow, all of them managed to avoid long ranting insults of God, on the internet or anywhere.
Which God have I insulted? I highly doubt that Most Christians Believe in the true God. I think Most people Believe in a God of their own imagination, which they then use to terrorise others. That is the God I have experienced and despise.To rebell against a false Tyrant God must be a righteous thing. I admire Nietzsche for ranting against protestant and catholic psychological terrorists.
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Beebert, could you move this discussion over to one of the several threads you already started about it? Some people might actually want to talk about Saint Augustine.
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Offline beebert

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Beebert, could you move this discussion over to one of the several threads you already started about it? Some people might actually want to talk about Saint Augustine.
Yes of course! I apologize
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Let me then say something about Augustine and the City of God. I read some 100 pages of this work today and yesterday and must say I lost almost all respect I had for him before. Origen was certainly a far more gifted Christian philosopher and certainly morally superior to Augustine. Augustine seems like a vengeful and troubled man filled with hatred towards life who was exceptionally afraid of suffering in this life and therefore wanted to flee to the next. A coward to put it simply. And a heretic. He was without a doubt calvinistic. Calvin interpreted him correctly it seems too, since Augustine even speaks of people being predestined to damnation in this relatively ungifted work(compared to his confessions)
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Let me then say something about Augustine and the City of God. I read some 100 pages of this work today and yesterday and must say I lost almost all respect I had for him before. Origen was certainly a far more gifted Christian philosopher and certainly morally superior to Augustine. Augustine seems like a vengeful and troubled man filled with hatred towards life who was exceptionally afraid of suffering in this life and therefore wanted to flee to the next. A coward to put it simply. And a heretic. He was without a doubt calvinistic. Calvin interpreted him correctly it seems too, since Augustine even speaks of people being predestined to damnation in this relatively ungifted work(compared to his confessions)

Even if it weren't a Saint you were reacting to, that level of hatred toward someone in that much detail after less than two days of approaching their work can't be healthy. Maybe you need to cut down on your sugar intake.
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Augustine seems like a vengeful and troubled man filled with hatred towards life who was exceptionally afraid of suffering in this life and therefore wanted to flee to the next. A coward to put it simply. And a heretic.

The absolute nothingness of death would be a blessing. Something to look forward to.
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

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Offline Rohzek

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I don't think St. Augustine has a poor view of God, but rather a poor view of humanity.
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I don't think St. Augustine has a poor view of God, but rather a poor view of humanity.
Good remark.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese)

Offline Porter ODoran

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I don't think St. Augustine has a poor view of God, but rather a poor view of humanity.
Good remark.

Believe me, we deserve most of the disparagement we get, from any source. Humanity is monstrous. Humanity is also fairly useless. Humanity requires a Savior.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Rohzek

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I don't think St. Augustine has a poor view of God, but rather a poor view of humanity.
Good remark.

Believe me, we deserve most of the disparagement we get, from any source. Humanity is monstrous. Humanity is also fairly useless. Humanity requires a Savior.

Actually, we don't deserve Augustine's crazy and outright irrational disparagement.

I don't think anyone said humanity doesn't need a savior. It's a point of fact, however, that Augustine professed humanity to be totally depraved. John Calvin more or less got him right. And so did Gottschalk of Orbais. This point of view was declared a heresy as the Council of Jerusalem in 1672.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 07:36:24 PM by Rohzek »
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline beebert

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Let me then say something about Augustine and the City of God. I read some 100 pages of this work today and yesterday and must say I lost almost all respect I had for him before. Origen was certainly a far more gifted Christian philosopher and certainly morally superior to Augustine. Augustine seems like a vengeful and troubled man filled with hatred towards life who was exceptionally afraid of suffering in this life and therefore wanted to flee to the next. A coward to put it simply. And a heretic. He was without a doubt calvinistic. Calvin interpreted him correctly it seems too, since Augustine even speaks of people being predestined to damnation in this relatively ungifted work(compared to his confessions)

Even if it weren't a Saint you were reacting to, that level of hatred toward someone in that much detail after less than two days of approaching their work can't be healthy. Maybe you need to cut down on your sugar intake.
I feel no hatred towards Augustine. I am certain he still was a godly man. I believe the hatred he has expressed in this book of his far surpasses my disdain and disgust towards the actual hatred that he expresses.
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Augustine seems like a vengeful and troubled man filled with hatred towards life who was exceptionally afraid of suffering in this life and therefore wanted to flee to the next. A coward to put it simply. And a heretic.

The absolute nothingness of death would be a blessing. Something to look forward to.
Well, it would be a better thing still to face the suffering here in this life, which I believe Christ showed us is the way of life, than to wish to flee to an afterlife where you are saved yourself FROM the world without any hope for the salvation OF the world, right? Of course the nothingness of death would be a blessing compared to what Augustine promises the majority of mankind: Eternal torment in hell with literal fire predetermined and created by God before the foundation of the world independent from our actions, long before our birth which we didn't even choose. I wouldnt want to be in that hell. Nor would I woant to be in heaven with the God who created that hell for the destruction of sinners for his own glory decided by him before the creation of the world. It seems like Augustine continued to be a follower in many ways of manicheism after all.
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I don't think St. Augustine has a poor view of God, but rather a poor view of humanity.
Good remark.

Believe me, we deserve most of the disparagement we get, from any source. Humanity is monstrous. Humanity is also fairly useless. Humanity requires a Savior.
I agree that humanity needs a savior. I too agree about that we to a certain extent deserve the disparagement we get, but man becomes an even more monstrous being if his God is monstrous, which the God of Calvin for example is. And the type of sentiments expressed by Augustine are proofs that man deserves disparagement, if you know what I mean. Because the ultimate result of this kind of rational way of theologizing is that the Only one who deserves disparagement is God, and that CANT be right. Humanity is not completely useless though, at least not in the eyes of God. He is both useless in a sense, but also the greatest crown of the creation. And man isn't only monstrous. We have created wonderful things that in many ways justify our existence too, like the music of Beethoven and Bach, the literature of Dostoevsky and Cervantes, the art of van Gogh and da Vinci...
« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 11:01:51 AM by beebert »
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Augustine seems like a vengeful and troubled man filled with hatred towards life who was exceptionally afraid of suffering in this life and therefore wanted to flee to the next. A coward to put it simply. And a heretic.

The absolute nothingness of death would be a blessing. Something to look forward to.
Well, it would be a better thing still to face the suffering here in this life, which I believe Christ showed us is the way of life, than to wish to flee to an afterlife where you are saved yourself FROM the world without any hope for the salvation OF the world, right? Of course the nothingness of death would be a blessing compared to what Augustine promises the majority of mankind: Eternal torment in hell with literal fire predetermined and created by God before the foundation of the world independent from our actions, long before our birth which we didn't even choose. I wouldnt want to be in that hell. Nor would I woant to be in heaven with the God who created that hell for the destruction of sinners for his own glory decided by him before the creation of the world. It seems like Augustine continued to be a follower in many ways of manicheism after all.

I just think you're a lot like the people you repudiate. 
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Offline beebert

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Augustine seems like a vengeful and troubled man filled with hatred towards life who was exceptionally afraid of suffering in this life and therefore wanted to flee to the next. A coward to put it simply. And a heretic.

The absolute nothingness of death would be a blessing. Something to look forward to.
Well, it would be a better thing still to face the suffering here in this life, which I believe Christ showed us is the way of life, than to wish to flee to an afterlife where you are saved yourself FROM the world without any hope for the salvation OF the world, right? Of course the nothingness of death would be a blessing compared to what Augustine promises the majority of mankind: Eternal torment in hell with literal fire predetermined and created by God before the foundation of the world independent from our actions, long before our birth which we didn't even choose. I wouldnt want to be in that hell. Nor would I woant to be in heaven with the God who created that hell for the destruction of sinners for his own glory decided by him before the creation of the world. It seems like Augustine continued to be a follower in many ways of manicheism after all.

I just think you're a lot like the people you repudiate.
I need to keep my enemies Close. And the greatest one is myself ;) I think you have a point. The ideas of Calvin and Augustine can be felt within me. Close to me. But nothing within me is more repusive to me. I see it as a task to overcome this. And to overcome Calvin and Augustine. And to do that would be a great victory. Without a doubt, Nietzsche had a Point when he said that man is something that must be overcome. And more specifically, man must overcome himself. I dont find God in the predestinarian systems of thought. I find a denial of God. An objectified God limited because of rational thought. Not omniscience and omnipotence, but human ideas of the concepts. The result is a slave morality, which is the opposite of what I believe to be authentic christianity. Only orthodox theology can defend God from modern western objections to the rationalized idea of God. Orthodoxy needs to be more proclaimed in the world! And the monstrous ideas of the west (except a few of them) needs to be eliminated.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 11:38:38 AM by beebert »
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   From what I understand, St. Augustine tried hard to be consciencious in his faith. It seems like many hardened, often unforgiving, tendencies emerged from Carthage. It seems like these can be traced, in a psychological sense, from Tertullian, Donatism, Novatianism etc. ?Just my casual, vague observation.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 11:55:35 AM by recent convert »
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   From what I understand, St. Augustine tried hard to be consciencious in his faith. It seems like many hardened, often unforgiving, tendencies emerged from Carthage. It seems like these can be traced, in a psychological sense, from Tertullian, Donatism, Novatianism etc. ?Just my casual, vague observation.
I agree.
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This seems relevant here. When faced with the possibility that some Church Fathers like Augustine, Ambrose and Jerome might have taught the filioque doctrine, St. Photius answered this in various ways. Here was one of his arguments:

Quote
It is possible to find many other examples in our holy and blessed fathers. I have in mind Clement, one of the bishops of [Old] Rome. Consider the books which are known from him as Clementine (I do not say write because, according to ancient report, Peter the Coryphaeus commanded they be written). Consider also Dionysius of Alexandria, who in stretching out his hand against Sabellius nearly joins with Arius. Consider also the splendour of the sacred-martyr, Methodius the Great of Patara, who did not reject the idea that angels fell into mortal desire and bodily intercourse, even though they are incorporeal and without passions. I shall pass over Pantaenos, Clement, Pierios, Pamphilos and Theognostos, all holy men and teachers of holy disciples whom we hymn with great honour and affection, especially Pamphilos and Pierios, distinguished by the trials of martyrdom.

Although we do not accept all of their statements, we grant them honour for their patient disposition and goodness of life and for their other doctrines. In addition to those previously mentioned, there is Irenaeus, the bishop of God, who received the supervision of sacred things in Lyons and also Hippolytus, his disciple, the Episcopal martyr: all of these were admirable in many ways, though at times some of their writings do not avoid departing from orthodoxy

-- St. Photius the Great, Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit, 75
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Offline beebert

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I by the way am almost certain that election means something else than predestined to be "saved" as Augustine taught.  Many are called, but few are chosen. Who are the elect? Throughout the Bible the term "the elect" is used to refer to "God's chosen people". But chosen to what? Chosen to be the light and salt in the world. Salt saves meat. The elect work with and by the Grace of the Holy Spirit to save the whole world. Salt preserves something else. Light illuminates something else. Israel, the Old Testament type of the Church (or even the Church of the Old Testament), was called God's elect so as to be a light to the gentiles. "Through you," God says to Abraham, "all the the nations of the earth will be blessed". This must be the spirit of the Christian. Not "I am elect, you are damned". We are all one in Adam. So christians are obligated to strive sSalt preserves something else. Light illuminates something else. Israel, the Old Testament type of the Church (or even the Church of the Old Testament), was called God's elect so as to be a light to the gentiles. "Through you," God says to Abraham, "all the the nations of the earth will be blessed." That should be the christians spirit. We are all one in Adam. Christians should be obligated not to seperate themselves from the children of Adam, but to show the light of Christ to the children of Adam to strive to make all men children of Christ. For the salvation of the world. There is no fear in love. Christians are called to show People the light of immortality and Victory over death, and to answer to evil with good. To not resist evil.
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The notion that the salvation of Jesus is a salvation from the punishment of our sins, is a false and pathetic idea coming from the herd mind.. The salvation of Christ is salvation from the will and leaning to sin. It is a deliverance into God's ways of thinking and feeling. It is a salvation that makes the heart pure, with the will and choice of the heart to be pure. To such a heart, sin is disgusting. It sees a thing as it is,  just as God sees everything as it is. The soul thus saved would rather sink into the flames of hell than steal into heaven and be there under the shadow of an imputed righteousness. What a fakse view of the gospel that has derived from the reformed theology! What a blasphemy towards love, goodness and truth! No soul is saved that would not prefer hell to sin. No heavenly utilitarist can remain that way and call him self saved and chosen. Jesus did not die to save us from punishment; he was called Jesus because he should save his people from their sins. About rationalistic theology: Let the dead bury their dead, but I will what I can to keep them from burying the living.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 02:00:51 PM by beebert »
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Let me then say something about Augustine and the City of God. I read some 100 pages of this work today and yesterday and must say I lost almost all respect I had for him before. Origen was certainly a far more gifted Christian philosopher and certainly morally superior to Augustine. Augustine seems like a vengeful and troubled man filled with hatred towards life who was exceptionally afraid of suffering in this life and therefore wanted to flee to the next. A coward to put it simply. And a heretic. He was without a doubt calvinistic. Calvin interpreted him correctly it seems too, since Augustine even speaks of people being predestined to damnation in this relatively ungifted work(compared to his confessions)

Even if it weren't a Saint you were reacting to, that level of hatred toward someone in that much detail after less than two days of approaching their work can't be healthy. Maybe you need to cut down on your sugar intake.
I feel no hatred towards Augustine. I am certain he still was a godly man. I believe the hatred he has expressed in this book of his far surpasses my disdain and disgust towards the actual hatred that he expresses.

It's just so humorous that you took less than two days to become a disdainful expert on one of the greatest and most complex books in the world. You did know it's among the most important philosophical works of antiquity, being one of the major responses to Plato's Republic (the other being Cicero's)?
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Offline beebert

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Let me then say something about Augustine and the City of God. I read some 100 pages of this work today and yesterday and must say I lost almost all respect I had for him before. Origen was certainly a far more gifted Christian philosopher and certainly morally superior to Augustine. Augustine seems like a vengeful and troubled man filled with hatred towards life who was exceptionally afraid of suffering in this life and therefore wanted to flee to the next. A coward to put it simply. And a heretic. He was without a doubt calvinistic. Calvin interpreted him correctly it seems too, since Augustine even speaks of people being predestined to damnation in this relatively ungifted work(compared to his confessions)

Even if it weren't a Saint you were reacting to, that level of hatred toward someone in that much detail after less than two days of approaching their work can't be healthy. Maybe you need to cut down on your sugar intake.
I feel no hatred towards Augustine. I am certain he still was a godly man. I believe the hatred he has expressed in this book of his far surpasses my disdain and disgust towards the actual hatred that he expresses.

It's just so humorous that you took less than two days to become a disdainful expert on one of the greatest and most complex books in the world. You did know it's among the most important philosophical works of antiquity, being one of the major responses to Plato's Republic (the other being Cicero's)?
Of Course I do know that. I dont have the complete work. I Only have book 19-27 which are the Only Ones that I have found translated Into my language. As a philosophical work by the way, from what I have read, the Republic by Plato seems far superior.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Well, yes, of course, the Republic is the seminal work. You aren't a native English speaker?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Well, yes, of course, the Republic is the seminal work. You aren't a native English speaker?
No I am from Sweden :)
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You have a shockingly good grasp of written English.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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You have a shockingly good grasp of written English.
Thanks. I guess the reason might be that I have read a lot of books in english.
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Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?

I liked a lot of it.  As I recall, it can be a little on the dry side, very long book, bit tedious in parts.  But I can't think of anything in it that an Orthodox would have too much problem with.  Basic Christian stuff.  Should be read more than it is.  Worth the effort in my opinion.
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A lot of times it's a good idea to learn what contemporary polemic a writer's own polemic was directed at, as the hyperbole on both sides tends to cancel each other out, allowing us to concentrate on what was actually new and important in the writer's work. In St. Augustine's case in this famous book, he was hitting back at the growing narrative in the empire that paganism had a philosophical and moral basis for civilization and Christianity didn't -- that it was Christianity that was ruining the West and handing the empire to her enemies. So first the writer vociferously attacks his foes in an effort to neutralize their growing prestige through sheer dazzling rhetoric. For myself, I spend little time on this portion of the book. However, then he follows up by building an extraordinary substantive vision of a Christian civilization the equal or superior of the most famous of such visions built by pagans, viz. Plato and Cicero. This portion of the book deserves very careful reading. St. Augustine was a stunning intellectual, especially for his rather fallen place and time. He was also incredibly prolific. Some points of comparison to Origen or Luther come to mind.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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I like the part where he talks about how some people can fart musically. 
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I'm not Orthodox, but my assessment is that City of God XVI.8-9 is awesome for the discussion of monsters and people with backwards feet.
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I'm not Orthodox, but my assessment is that City of God XVI.8-9 is awesome for the discussion of monsters and people with backwards feet.

"Wherefore, to conclude this question cautiously and guardedly [how Christianity can explain monsters], either these things which have been told of some races have no existence at all; or if they do exist, they are not human races; or if they are human, they are descended from Adam." Seems he covered all his bases.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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I don't think St. Augustine has a poor view of God, but rather a poor view of humanity.
Good remark.

Believe me, we deserve most of the disparagement we get, from any source. Humanity is monstrous. Humanity is also fairly useless. Humanity requires a Savior.

Actually, we don't deserve Augustine's crazy and outright irrational disparagement.

I don't think anyone said humanity doesn't need a savior. It's a point of fact, however, that Augustine professed humanity to be totally depraved. John Calvin more or less got him right. And so did Gottschalk of Orbais. This point of view was declared a heresy as the Council of Jerusalem in 1672.

No, he didn't. He never did.  You're committing the same error that Fr. John Romanides (of blessed memory) and Rev. Dr. Michael Azkoul do when assessing Augustine.  You assume that because John Calvin taught that mankind was utterly and totally depraved (fact, he did) and that Augustine was one of his influences (fact, he was) that Augustine taught the very same thing (falsehood, he didn't).  The reformers like Calvin, Luther and Zwingli, among others, were always trying to think that the church fathers were "on their side."  And St. Augustine was the church father, par excellence to  appeal to.  Augustine's antropology was nowhere near as developed as what we read in Irenaeus, but to impose onto Augustine all the errors of the Reformation is sheer laziness and rooted in a hatred of sorts.  We all like scapegoats  (it's easy) and Augustine has become the scapegoat for which every heresy in Catholicism, the Reformation and even in new theological fads can be traced to.  Augustine never taught anything about utter depravity and the times that he is cited to support that he did are rooted in clever sophistry and assumption. Don't read the critics of Augustine. Read Augustine.  And for this whole thing about total depravity, I would encourage you to read his Anti-Pelagian writings particularly On the Spirt and the Letter. It 's very short.  You can probably find it somewhere on line in the Post-Nicene Fathers collection.
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I don't think St. Augustine has a poor view of God, but rather a poor view of humanity.
Good remark.

Believe me, we deserve most of the disparagement we get, from any source. Humanity is monstrous. Humanity is also fairly useless. Humanity requires a Savior.

Actually, we don't deserve Augustine's crazy and outright irrational disparagement.

I don't think anyone said humanity doesn't need a savior. It's a point of fact, however, that Augustine professed humanity to be totally depraved. John Calvin more or less got him right. And so did Gottschalk of Orbais. This point of view was declared a heresy as the Council of Jerusalem in 1672.

No, he didn't. He never did.  You're committing the same error that Fr. John Romanides (of blessed memory) and Rev. Dr. Michael Azkoul do when assessing Augustine.  You assume that because John Calvin taught that mankind was utterly and totally depraved (fact, he did) and that Augustine was one of his influences (fact, he was) that Augustine taught the very same thing (falsehood, he didn't).  The reformers like Calvin, Luther and Zwingli, among others, were always trying to think that the church fathers were "on their side."  And St. Augustine was the church father, par excellence to  appeal to.  Augustine's antropology was nowhere near as developed as what we read in Irenaeus, but to impose onto Augustine all the errors of the Reformation is sheer laziness and rooted in a hatred of sorts.  We all like scapegoats  (it's easy) and Augustine has become the scapegoat for which every heresy in Catholicism, the Reformation and even in new theological fads can be traced to.  Augustine never taught anything about utter depravity and the times that he is cited to support that he did are rooted in clever sophistry and assumption. Don't read the critics of Augustine. Read Augustine.  And for this whole thing about total depravity, I would encourage you to read his Anti-Pelagian writings particularly On the Spirt and the Letter. It 's very short.  You can probably find it somewhere on line in the Post-Nicene Fathers collection.
I have read Augustine. I have read On Grace and Free will, Confessions, and big parts of the City of God. He was, from what I have read, without a doubt close to Calvin in his views. Double predestination is the inevitable conclusion of his thought. Calvin was the one who in his theology of predestination was closest to Augustine and who interpreted Augustine most correctly there. And unfortunately, it is hard to not draw the conclusion of total depravity if you believe in double predestination it seems to me... I might be wrong though. Then of course, the personality of the God of Calvin is quite different. Augustine still believed (how though I am not sure) in a God of love, and he certainly had a relationship with this loving God. Calvin seems to me to have no more than an idea of God. And his God has only love for the elect, and everything is about his own self-gloryfication. The opposite of the cross. Ergo, the opposite of christianity.
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I don't think St. Augustine has a poor view of God, but rather a poor view of humanity.
Good remark.

Believe me, we deserve most of the disparagement we get, from any source. Humanity is monstrous. Humanity is also fairly useless. Humanity requires a Savior.

Actually, we don't deserve Augustine's crazy and outright irrational disparagement.

I don't think anyone said humanity doesn't need a savior. It's a point of fact, however, that Augustine professed humanity to be totally depraved. John Calvin more or less got him right. And so did Gottschalk of Orbais. This point of view was declared a heresy as the Council of Jerusalem in 1672.

No, he didn't. He never did.  You're committing the same error that Fr. John Romanides (of blessed memory) and Rev. Dr. Michael Azkoul do when assessing Augustine.  You assume that because John Calvin taught that mankind was utterly and totally depraved (fact, he did) and that Augustine was one of his influences (fact, he was) that Augustine taught the very same thing (falsehood, he didn't).  The reformers like Calvin, Luther and Zwingli, among others, were always trying to think that the church fathers were "on their side."  And St. Augustine was the church father, par excellence to  appeal to.  Augustine's antropology was nowhere near as developed as what we read in Irenaeus, but to impose onto Augustine all the errors of the Reformation is sheer laziness and rooted in a hatred of sorts.  We all like scapegoats  (it's easy) and Augustine has become the scapegoat for which every heresy in Catholicism, the Reformation and even in new theological fads can be traced to.  Augustine never taught anything about utter depravity and the times that he is cited to support that he did are rooted in clever sophistry and assumption. Don't read the critics of Augustine. Read Augustine.  And for this whole thing about total depravity, I would encourage you to read his Anti-Pelagian writings particularly On the Spirt and the Letter. It 's very short.  You can probably find it somewhere on line in the Post-Nicene Fathers collection.
I have read Augustine. I have read On Grace and Free will, Confessions, and big parts of the City of God. He was, from what I have read, without a doubt close to Calvin in his views. Double predestination is the inevitable conclusion of his thought. Calvin was the one who in his theology of predestination was closest to Augustine . Then of course, the personality of the God of Calvin is quite different. Augustine still believed (how though I am not sure) in a God of love, and he certainly had a relationship with this loving God. Calvin seems to me to have no more than an idea of God. And his God has only love for the elect, and everything is about his own self-gloryfication. The opposite of the cross. Ergo, the opposite of christianity.

You read him for less than two days. Surely it's sheer hubris to think one grasps one of the foremost thinkers of the world in a matter of hours. Also, St. Augustine wrote thousands of pages throughout his life: most isn't even translated. In sum, I don't know if anybody living is a true expert on St. Augustine, but it surely isn't I or you.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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I don't think St. Augustine has a poor view of God, but rather a poor view of humanity.
Good remark.

Believe me, we deserve most of the disparagement we get, from any source. Humanity is monstrous. Humanity is also fairly useless. Humanity requires a Savior.

Actually, we don't deserve Augustine's crazy and outright irrational disparagement.

I don't think anyone said humanity doesn't need a savior. It's a point of fact, however, that Augustine professed humanity to be totally depraved. John Calvin more or less got him right. And so did Gottschalk of Orbais. This point of view was declared a heresy as the Council of Jerusalem in 1672.

No, he didn't. He never did.  You're committing the same error that Fr. John Romanides (of blessed memory) and Rev. Dr. Michael Azkoul do when assessing Augustine.  You assume that because John Calvin taught that mankind was utterly and totally depraved (fact, he did) and that Augustine was one of his influences (fact, he was) that Augustine taught the very same thing (falsehood, he didn't).  The reformers like Calvin, Luther and Zwingli, among others, were always trying to think that the church fathers were "on their side."  And St. Augustine was the church father, par excellence to  appeal to.  Augustine's antropology was nowhere near as developed as what we read in Irenaeus, but to impose onto Augustine all the errors of the Reformation is sheer laziness and rooted in a hatred of sorts.  We all like scapegoats  (it's easy) and Augustine has become the scapegoat for which every heresy in Catholicism, the Reformation and even in new theological fads can be traced to.  Augustine never taught anything about utter depravity and the times that he is cited to support that he did are rooted in clever sophistry and assumption. Don't read the critics of Augustine. Read Augustine.  And for this whole thing about total depravity, I would encourage you to read his Anti-Pelagian writings particularly On the Spirt and the Letter. It 's very short.  You can probably find it somewhere on line in the Post-Nicene Fathers collection.
I have read Augustine. I have read On Grace and Free will, Confessions, and big parts of the City of God. He was, from what I have read, without a doubt close to Calvin in his views. Double predestination is the inevitable conclusion of his thought. Calvin was the one who in his theology of predestination was closest to Augustine . Then of course, the personality of the God of Calvin is quite different. Augustine still believed (how though I am not sure) in a God of love, and he certainly had a relationship with this loving God. Calvin seems to me to have no more than an idea of God. And his God has only love for the elect, and everything is about his own self-gloryfication. The opposite of the cross. Ergo, the opposite of christianity.

You read him for less than two days. Surely it's sheer hubris to think one grasps one of the foremost thinkers of the world in a matter of hours. Also, St. Augustine wrote thousands of pages throughout his life: most isn't even translated. In sum, I don't know if anybody living is a true expert on St. Augustine, but it surely isn't I or you.
If the views I stated were supposed to be stated as points of fact, then I wouldn't have said "from what I have read". I by the way only read City of God a couple of days ago. Do you believe I read it all in two days? No. I have been familiar with Augustine for many years now. I have read in City of God before, I read Confessions a long time ago, and have even read it twice. And I have also read books written by theologians and philosophers where they write about Augustine and his thoughts. I haven't heard or read anyone who hasn't seen the obvious likeness between Augustine and Calvin. Calvin is more extreme, yes. But he certainly, from all the information I have received, seems to be the one who by FAR is closest to correctly interpret Augustine's view on predestination and election. Okay... Perhaps Blaise Pascal was closer. He too believed in double predestination and total depravity though. The difference between him and Calvin is that Blaise Pascal was a much deeper thinker, and that he believed that believers could fall away from faith(and that Augustine believed too).
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 03:20:41 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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What you said is

Let me then say something about Augustine and the City of God. I read some 100 pages of this work today and yesterday and must say I lost almost all respect I had for him before.

Calvin is more extreme, yes. But he certainly, from all the information I have received, seems to be the one who by FAR is closest to correctly interpret Augustine's view on predestination and election.

He thought so too. You and Calvin seem to have minds that operate very similarly.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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What you said is

Let me then say something about Augustine and the City of God. I read some 100 pages of this work today and yesterday and must say I lost almost all respect I had for him before.

Calvin is more extreme, yes. But he certainly, from all the information I have received, seems to be the one who by FAR is closest to correctly interpret Augustine's view on predestination and election.

He thought so too. You and Calvin seem to have minds that operate very similarly.
What about those two quotes? The difference between me and Calvin was that Calvin almost worshiped Augustine, while I lost most of my earlier respect for him. I didn't lose my respect for Augustine as a theologian or thinker. But as a man of high moral standards and empathy. Same goes for Calvin. If I lost respect for Augustine, think then about the respect I have for Calvin... Not so much.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 03:29:47 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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I don't think St. Augustine has a poor view of God, but rather a poor view of humanity.
Good remark.

Believe me, we deserve most of the disparagement we get, from any source. Humanity is monstrous. Humanity is also fairly useless. Humanity requires a Savior.

Actually, we don't deserve Augustine's crazy and outright irrational disparagement.

I don't think anyone said humanity doesn't need a savior. It's a point of fact, however, that Augustine professed humanity to be totally depraved. John Calvin more or less got him right. And so did Gottschalk of Orbais. This point of view was declared a heresy as the Council of Jerusalem in 1672.

No, he didn't. He never did.  You're committing the same error that Fr. John Romanides (of blessed memory) and Rev. Dr. Michael Azkoul do when assessing Augustine.  You assume that because John Calvin taught that mankind was utterly and totally depraved (fact, he did) and that Augustine was one of his influences (fact, he was) that Augustine taught the very same thing (falsehood, he didn't).  The reformers like Calvin, Luther and Zwingli, among others, were always trying to think that the church fathers were "on their side."  And St. Augustine was the church father, par excellence to  appeal to.  Augustine's antropology was nowhere near as developed as what we read in Irenaeus, but to impose onto Augustine all the errors of the Reformation is sheer laziness and rooted in a hatred of sorts.  We all like scapegoats  (it's easy) and Augustine has become the scapegoat for which every heresy in Catholicism, the Reformation and even in new theological fads can be traced to.  Augustine never taught anything about utter depravity and the times that he is cited to support that he did are rooted in clever sophistry and assumption. Don't read the critics of Augustine. Read Augustine.  And for this whole thing about total depravity, I would encourage you to read his Anti-Pelagian writings particularly On the Spirt and the Letter. It 's very short.  You can probably find it somewhere on line in the Post-Nicene Fathers collection.
I have read Augustine. I have read On Grace and Free will, Confessions, and big parts of the City of God. He was, from what I have read, without a doubt close to Calvin in his views. Double predestination is the inevitable conclusion of his thought. Calvin was the one who in his theology of predestination was closest to Augustine and who interpreted Augustine most correctly there. And unfortunately, it is hard to not draw the conclusion of total depravity if you believe in double predestination it seems to me... I might be wrong though.

Yeah, you are.
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Offline beebert

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I don't think St. Augustine has a poor view of God, but rather a poor view of humanity.
Good remark.

Believe me, we deserve most of the disparagement we get, from any source. Humanity is monstrous. Humanity is also fairly useless. Humanity requires a Savior.

Actually, we don't deserve Augustine's crazy and outright irrational disparagement.

I don't think anyone said humanity doesn't need a savior. It's a point of fact, however, that Augustine professed humanity to be totally depraved. John Calvin more or less got him right. And so did Gottschalk of Orbais. This point of view was declared a heresy as the Council of Jerusalem in 1672.

No, he didn't. He never did.  You're committing the same error that Fr. John Romanides (of blessed memory) and Rev. Dr. Michael Azkoul do when assessing Augustine.  You assume that because John Calvin taught that mankind was utterly and totally depraved (fact, he did) and that Augustine was one of his influences (fact, he was) that Augustine taught the very same thing (falsehood, he didn't).  The reformers like Calvin, Luther and Zwingli, among others, were always trying to think that the church fathers were "on their side."  And St. Augustine was the church father, par excellence to  appeal to.  Augustine's antropology was nowhere near as developed as what we read in Irenaeus, but to impose onto Augustine all the errors of the Reformation is sheer laziness and rooted in a hatred of sorts.  We all like scapegoats  (it's easy) and Augustine has become the scapegoat for which every heresy in Catholicism, the Reformation and even in new theological fads can be traced to.  Augustine never taught anything about utter depravity and the times that he is cited to support that he did are rooted in clever sophistry and assumption. Don't read the critics of Augustine. Read Augustine.  And for this whole thing about total depravity, I would encourage you to read his Anti-Pelagian writings particularly On the Spirt and the Letter. It 's very short.  You can probably find it somewhere on line in the Post-Nicene Fathers collection.
I have read Augustine. I have read On Grace and Free will, Confessions, and big parts of the City of God. He was, from what I have read, without a doubt close to Calvin in his views. Double predestination is the inevitable conclusion of his thought. Calvin was the one who in his theology of predestination was closest to Augustine and who interpreted Augustine most correctly there. And unfortunately, it is hard to not draw the conclusion of total depravity if you believe in double predestination it seems to me... I might be wrong though.

Yeah, you are.
About What though? If you mean regarding the fact that Augustine Believed in what Calvin later called Double predestination, then I wonder, have you read Augustine? And if you have, are you capable of understanding what you read?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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I don't think St. Augustine has a poor view of God, but rather a poor view of humanity.
Good remark.

Believe me, we deserve most of the disparagement we get, from any source. Humanity is monstrous. Humanity is also fairly useless. Humanity requires a Savior.

Actually, we don't deserve Augustine's crazy and outright irrational disparagement.

I don't think anyone said humanity doesn't need a savior. It's a point of fact, however, that Augustine professed humanity to be totally depraved. John Calvin more or less got him right. And so did Gottschalk of Orbais. This point of view was declared a heresy as the Council of Jerusalem in 1672.

No, he didn't. He never did.  You're committing the same error that Fr. John Romanides (of blessed memory) and Rev. Dr. Michael Azkoul do when assessing Augustine.  You assume that because John Calvin taught that mankind was utterly and totally depraved (fact, he did) and that Augustine was one of his influences (fact, he was) that Augustine taught the very same thing (falsehood, he didn't).  The reformers like Calvin, Luther and Zwingli, among others, were always trying to think that the church fathers were "on their side."  And St. Augustine was the church father, par excellence to  appeal to.  Augustine's antropology was nowhere near as developed as what we read in Irenaeus, but to impose onto Augustine all the errors of the Reformation is sheer laziness and rooted in a hatred of sorts.  We all like scapegoats  (it's easy) and Augustine has become the scapegoat for which every heresy in Catholicism, the Reformation and even in new theological fads can be traced to.  Augustine never taught anything about utter depravity and the times that he is cited to support that he did are rooted in clever sophistry and assumption. Don't read the critics of Augustine. Read Augustine.  And for this whole thing about total depravity, I would encourage you to read his Anti-Pelagian writings particularly On the Spirt and the Letter. It 's very short.  You can probably find it somewhere on line in the Post-Nicene Fathers collection.
I have read Augustine. I have read On Grace and Free will, Confessions, and big parts of the City of God. He was, from what I have read, without a doubt close to Calvin in his views. Double predestination is the inevitable conclusion of his thought. Calvin was the one who in his theology of predestination was closest to Augustine and who interpreted Augustine most correctly there. And unfortunately, it is hard to not draw the conclusion of total depravity if you believe in double predestination it seems to me... I might be wrong though.

Yeah, you are.

He's actually not though:

Quote
"Why does he [God] not teach all, so that they might come to Christ? Perhaps because all those he teaches in mercy [he taught]; but those who he does not teach in justice he does not teach [at all]? Because 'he has mercy on whom he wills, and whomever he wills he hardens. (Romans 9:18)... Thus rightly we say, God leads all to come to Christ, not because they all come [on their own accord], but because no one in any other matter [is able] to come. But why does he not teach all? The Apostle made it abundantly clear: because 'wanting to show his anger, and his power, he endured with much patience the vessels of wrath who are made for perdition, and so that he might make [some] signs of his divine glory with the vessels of mercy, who he prepared in glory' (Romans 9:18-23). Hence it is that 'the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are saved it is the power of God. (1 Corinthians 1:18).' Here God teaches all to come to Christ; for here 'he wishes all to be saved, and to come to knowledge in truth' (1 Timothy 2:4). For if God wished to teach those whom the word of the cross is foolishness so that they might come to Christ, undoubtedly they too would have come. For he does not deceive nor is deceived when he says, 'All who have heard from the Father and have learned, come to me' (John 6:45). Therefore, perish the thought that anyone does not come who has heard from the Father and has learned."

Cur ergo non omnes docet, ut veniant ad Christum; nisi quia omnes quos docet, misericordia docet; quos autem non docet, judicio non docet? Quoniam cujus vult miseretur, et quem vult obdurat:sed miseretur, bona tribuens; obdurat, digna retribuens. Aut si et ista, ut quidam distinguere maluerunt, verba sunt ejus cui Apostolus ait, Dicis itaque mihi: ut ipse dixisse accipiatur, Ergo cujus vult miseretur, et quem vult obdurat; et quae sequuntur, id est, Quid adhuc conqueritur? nam voluntati ejus quis resistit? numquid responsum est ab Apostolo, O homo, falsum est quod dixisti? Non: sed responsum est, O homo, tu quis es qui respondeas Deo? Numquid dicit figmentum ei qui se finxit, Quare sic me fecisti? Annon habet potestatem figulus luti ex eadem massa, et sequentia, quae optime nostis. Et tamen secundum quemdam modum, omnes Pater docet venire ad suum Filium. Non enim frustra scriptum est in Prophetis, Et erunt omnes docibiles Dei. Quod testimonium cum praemisisset, tunc subdidit, Omnis qui audivit a Patre et didicit, venit ad me. Sicut ergo integre loquimur, cum de aliquo litterarum magistro, qui in civitate solus est, dicimus, [COOmnes iste hic litteras docet; non quia omnes discunt, sed quia nemo nisi ab illo discit, quicumque ibi litteras discit: ita recte dicimus, Omnes Deus docet venire ad Christum, non quia omnes veniunt, sed quia nemo aliter venit. Cur autem non omnes doceat, aperuit Apostolus, quantum aperiendum judicavit: quia volens ostendere iram, et demonstrare potentiam suam, attulit in multa patientia vasa irae quae perfecta sunt in perditionem, et ut notas faciat divitias gloriae suae in vasa misericordiae, quae praeparavit in gloriam (Rom. IX, 18-23). Hinc est quod verbum crucis pereuntibus stultitia est; his autem qui salvi fiunt, virtus Dei est (I Cor. I, 18). Hos omnes docet venire au Christum Deus; hos enim omnes vult salvos fieri, et in agnitionem veritatis venire (I Tim. II, 4). Nam si et illos quibus stultitia est verbum crucis, ut ad Christum venirent, docere voluisset, procul dubio venirent et ipsi. Non enim fallit aut fallitur qui ait, Omnis qui audivit a Patre et didicit, venit ad me. Absit ergo ut quisquam non veniat, qui a Patre audivit et didicit.

I underlined the portions that I translated.

- St. Augustine of Hippo, On the Predestination of Saints, Chapter 14

Quote
Let us, then, understand the calling whereby they become elected,— not those who are elected because they have believed, but who are elected that they may believe. For the Lord Himself also sufficiently explains this calling when He says, You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you. John 15:16 For if they had been elected because they had believed, they themselves would certainly have first chosen Him by believing in Him, so that they should deserve to be elected. But He takes away this supposition altogether when He says, You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you. And yet they themselves, beyond a doubt, chose Him when they believed on Him. Whence it is not for any other reason that He says, You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, than because they did not choose Him that He should choose them, but He chose them that they might choose Him; because His mercy preceded them according to grace, not according to debt. Therefore He chose them out of the world while He was wearing flesh, but as those who were already chosen in Himself before the foundation of the world. This is the changeless truth concerning predestination and grace. For what is it that the apostle says, As He has chosen us in Himself before the foundation of the world? Ephesians 1:4 And assuredly, if this were said because God foreknew that they would believe, not because He Himself would make them believers, the Son is speaking against such a foreknowledge as that when He says, You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you; when God should rather have foreknown this very thing, that they themselves would have chosen Him, so that they might deserve to be chosen by Him. Therefore they were elected before the foundation of the world with that predestination in which God foreknew what He Himself would do; but they were elected out of the world with that calling whereby God fulfilled that which He predestinated. For whom He predestinated, them He also called, with that calling, to wit, which is according to the purpose. Not others, therefore, but those whom He predestinated, them He also called; nor others, but those whom He so called, them He also justified; nor others, but those whom He predestinated, called, and justified, them He also glorified; assuredly to that end which has no end. Therefore God elected believers; but He chose them that they might be so, not because they were already so. The Apostle James says: Has not God chosen the poor in this world, rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which God has promised to them that love Him? James 2:5 By choosing them, therefore; He makes them rich in faith, as He makes them heirs of the kingdom; because He is rightly said to choose that in them, in order to make which in them He chose them. I ask, who can hear the Lord saying, You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and can dare to say that men believe in order to be elected, when they are rather elected to believe; lest against the judgment of truth they be found to have first chosen Christ to whom Christ says, You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you? John 16:16

- St. Augustine of Hippo, On the Predestination of Saints, Chapter 34

Quote
The devil who seduced them was cast into a lake of fire and brimstone. The obscure addition he had made in the words, in which were also the beast and the false prophet, he here explains, They who were not found written in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire. This book is not for reminding God, as if things might escape Him by forgetfulness, but it symbolizes His predestination of those to whom eternal life shall be given. For it is not that God is ignorant, and reads in the book to inform Himself, but rather His infallible prescience is the book of life in which they are written, that is to say, known beforehand.

- St. Augustine of Hippo, City of God, Book 20, Chapter 15

Quote
Faith, then, as well in its beginning as in its completion, is God's gift; and let no one have any doubt whatever, unless he desires to resist the plainest sacred writings, that this gift is given to some, while to some it is not given. But why it is not given to all ought not to disturb the believer, who believes that from one all have gone into a condemnation, which undoubtedly is most righteous; so that even if none were delivered therefrom, there would be no just cause for finding fault with God. Whence it is plain that it is a great grace for many to be delivered, and to acknowledge in those that are not delivered what would be due to themselves; so that he that glories may glory not in his own merits, which he sees to be equalled in those that are condemned, but in the Lord. But why He delivers one rather than another—His judgments are unsearchable, and His ways past finding out. Romans 11:33 For it is better in this case for us to hear or to say, O man, who are you that repliest against God? Romans 9:20 than to dare to speak as if we could know what He has chosen to be kept secret. Since, moreover, He could not will anything unrighteous.

- St. Augustine of Hippo, On the Predestination of Saints, Chapter 16

NOTE: Unless otherwise stated, these quotes come from the New Advent translations of his works.

The positions can be summed up as thus. God does not call all humans to himself. "All" means only the Elect/predestined. Those who are not called are damned on account of their own sins, which they could only do because their free will was so damaged, making them utterly depraved.

Care to give us a bit of evidence from On the Spirt and the Letter for your own position?
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 10:05:58 AM by Rohzek »
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline beebert

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I don't think St. Augustine has a poor view of God, but rather a poor view of humanity.
Good remark.

Believe me, we deserve most of the disparagement we get, from any source. Humanity is monstrous. Humanity is also fairly useless. Humanity requires a Savior.

Actually, we don't deserve Augustine's crazy and outright irrational disparagement.

I don't think anyone said humanity doesn't need a savior. It's a point of fact, however, that Augustine professed humanity to be totally depraved. John Calvin more or less got him right. And so did Gottschalk of Orbais. This point of view was declared a heresy as the Council of Jerusalem in 1672.

No, he didn't. He never did.  You're committing the same error that Fr. John Romanides (of blessed memory) and Rev. Dr. Michael Azkoul do when assessing Augustine.  You assume that because John Calvin taught that mankind was utterly and totally depraved (fact, he did) and that Augustine was one of his influences (fact, he was) that Augustine taught the very same thing (falsehood, he didn't).  The reformers like Calvin, Luther and Zwingli, among others, were always trying to think that the church fathers were "on their side."  And St. Augustine was the church father, par excellence to  appeal to.  Augustine's antropology was nowhere near as developed as what we read in Irenaeus, but to impose onto Augustine all the errors of the Reformation is sheer laziness and rooted in a hatred of sorts.  We all like scapegoats  (it's easy) and Augustine has become the scapegoat for which every heresy in Catholicism, the Reformation and even in new theological fads can be traced to.  Augustine never taught anything about utter depravity and the times that he is cited to support that he did are rooted in clever sophistry and assumption. Don't read the critics of Augustine. Read Augustine.  And for this whole thing about total depravity, I would encourage you to read his Anti-Pelagian writings particularly On the Spirt and the Letter. It 's very short.  You can probably find it somewhere on line in the Post-Nicene Fathers collection.
I have read Augustine. I have read On Grace and Free will, Confessions, and big parts of the City of God. He was, from what I have read, without a doubt close to Calvin in his views. Double predestination is the inevitable conclusion of his thought. Calvin was the one who in his theology of predestination was closest to Augustine and who interpreted Augustine most correctly there. And unfortunately, it is hard to not draw the conclusion of total depravity if you believe in double predestination it seems to me... I might be wrong though.

Yeah, you are.

He's actually not though:

Quote
"Why does he [God] not teach all, so that they might come to Christ? Perhaps because all those he teaches in mercy [he taught]; but those who he does not teach in justice he does not teach [at all]? Because 'he has mercy on whom he wills, and whomever he wills he hardens. (Romans 9:18)... Thus rightly we say, God leads all to come to Christ, not because they all come [on their own accord], but because no one in any other matter [is able] to come. But why does he not teach all? The Apostle made it abundantly clear: because 'wanting to show his anger, and his power, he endured with much patience the vessels of wrath who are made for perdition, and so that he might make [some] signs of his divine glory with the vessels of mercy, who he prepared in glory' (Romans 9:18-23). Hence it is that 'the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are saved it is the power of God. (1 Corinthians 1:18).' Here God teaches all to come to Christ; for here 'he wishes all to be saved, and to come to knowledge in truth' (1 Timothy 2:4). For if God wished to teach those whom the word of the cross is foolishness so that they might come to Christ, undoubtedly they too would have come. For he does not deceive nor is deceived when he says, 'All who have heard from the Father and have learned, come to me' (John 6:45). Therefore, perish the thought that anyone does not come who has heard from the Father and has learned."

Cur ergo non omnes docet, ut veniant ad Christum; nisi quia omnes quos docet, misericordia docet; quos autem non docet, judicio non docet? Quoniam cujus vult miseretur, et quem vult obdurat:sed miseretur, bona tribuens; obdurat, digna retribuens. Aut si et ista, ut quidam distinguere maluerunt, verba sunt ejus cui Apostolus ait, Dicis itaque mihi: ut ipse dixisse accipiatur, Ergo cujus vult miseretur, et quem vult obdurat; et quae sequuntur, id est, Quid adhuc conqueritur? nam voluntati ejus quis resistit? numquid responsum est ab Apostolo, O homo, falsum est quod dixisti? Non: sed responsum est, O homo, tu quis es qui respondeas Deo? Numquid dicit figmentum ei qui se finxit, Quare sic me fecisti? Annon habet potestatem figulus luti ex eadem massa, et sequentia, quae optime nostis. Et tamen secundum quemdam modum, omnes Pater docet venire ad suum Filium. Non enim frustra scriptum est in Prophetis, Et erunt omnes docibiles Dei. Quod testimonium cum praemisisset, tunc subdidit, Omnis qui audivit a Patre et didicit, venit ad me. Sicut ergo integre loquimur, cum de aliquo litterarum magistro, qui in civitate solus est, dicimus, [COOmnes iste hic litteras docet; non quia omnes discunt, sed quia nemo nisi ab illo discit, quicumque ibi litteras discit: ita recte dicimus, Omnes Deus docet venire ad Christum, non quia omnes veniunt, sed quia nemo aliter venit. Cur autem non omnes doceat, aperuit Apostolus, quantum aperiendum judicavit: quia volens ostendere iram, et demonstrare potentiam suam, attulit in multa patientia vasa irae quae perfecta sunt in perditionem, et ut notas faciat divitias gloriae suae in vasa misericordiae, quae praeparavit in gloriam (Rom. IX, 18-23). Hinc est quod verbum crucis pereuntibus stultitia est; his autem qui salvi fiunt, virtus Dei est (I Cor. I, 18). Hos omnes docet venire au Christum Deus; hos enim omnes vult salvos fieri, et in agnitionem veritatis venire (I Tim. II, 4). Nam si et illos quibus stultitia est verbum crucis, ut ad Christum venirent, docere voluisset, procul dubio venirent et ipsi. Non enim fallit aut fallitur qui ait, Omnis qui audivit a Patre et didicit, venit ad me. Absit ergo ut quisquam non veniat, qui a Patre audivit et didicit.

I underlined the portions that I translated.

- St. Augustine of Hippo, On the Predestination of Saints, Chapter 14

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Let us, then, understand the calling whereby they become elected,— not those who are elected because they have believed, but who are elected that they may believe. For the Lord Himself also sufficiently explains this calling when He says, You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you. John 15:16 For if they had been elected because they had believed, they themselves would certainly have first chosen Him by believing in Him, so that they should deserve to be elected. But He takes away this supposition altogether when He says, You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you. And yet they themselves, beyond a doubt, chose Him when they believed on Him. Whence it is not for any other reason that He says, You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, than because they did not choose Him that He should choose them, but He chose them that they might choose Him; because His mercy preceded them according to grace, not according to debt. Therefore He chose them out of the world while He was wearing flesh, but as those who were already chosen in Himself before the foundation of the world. This is the changeless truth concerning predestination and grace. For what is it that the apostle says, As He has chosen us in Himself before the foundation of the world? Ephesians 1:4 And assuredly, if this were said because God foreknew that they would believe, not because He Himself would make them believers, the Son is speaking against such a foreknowledge as that when He says, You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you; when God should rather have foreknown this very thing, that they themselves would have chosen Him, so that they might deserve to be chosen by Him. Therefore they were elected before the foundation of the world with that predestination in which God foreknew what He Himself would do; but they were elected out of the world with that calling whereby God fulfilled that which He predestinated. For whom He predestinated, them He also called, with that calling, to wit, which is according to the purpose. Not others, therefore, but those whom He predestinated, them He also called; nor others, but those whom He so called, them He also justified; nor others, but those whom He predestinated, called, and justified, them He also glorified; assuredly to that end which has no end. Therefore God elected believers; but He chose them that they might be so, not because they were already so. The Apostle James says: Has not God chosen the poor in this world, rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which God has promised to them that love Him? James 2:5 By choosing them, therefore; He makes them rich in faith, as He makes them heirs of the kingdom; because He is rightly said to choose that in them, in order to make which in them He chose them. I ask, who can hear the Lord saying, You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and can dare to say that men believe in order to be elected, when they are rather elected to believe; lest against the judgment of truth they be found to have first chosen Christ to whom Christ says, You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you? John 16:16

- St. Augustine of Hippo, On the Predestination of Saints, Chapter 34

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The devil who seduced them was cast into a lake of fire and brimstone. The obscure addition he had made in the words, in which were also the beast and the false prophet, he here explains, They who were not found written in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire. This book is not for reminding God, as if things might escape Him by forgetfulness, but it symbolizes His predestination of those to whom eternal life shall be given. For it is not that God is ignorant, and reads in the book to inform Himself, but rather His infallible prescience is the book of life in which they are written, that is to say, known beforehand.

- St. Augustine of Hippo, City of God, Book 20, Chapter 15

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Faith, then, as well in its beginning as in its completion, is God's gift; and let no one have any doubt whatever, unless he desires to resist the plainest sacred writings, that this gift is given to some, while to some it is not given. But why it is not given to all ought not to disturb the believer, who believes that from one all have gone into a condemnation, which undoubtedly is most righteous; so that even if none were delivered therefrom, there would be no just cause for finding fault with God. Whence it is plain that it is a great grace for many to be delivered, and to acknowledge in those that are not delivered what would be due to themselves; so that he that glories may glory not in his own merits, which he sees to be equalled in those that are condemned, but in the Lord. But why He delivers one rather than another—His judgments are unsearchable, and His ways past finding out. Romans 11:33 For it is better in this case for us to hear or to say, O man, who are you that repliest against God? Romans 9:20 than to dare to speak as if we could know what He has chosen to be kept secret. Since, moreover, He could not will anything unrighteous.

- St. Augustine of Hippo, On the Predestination of Saints, Chapter 16

NOTE: Unless otherwise stated, these quotes come from the New Advent translations of his works.

The positions can be summed up as thus. God does not call all humans to himself. "All" means only the Elect/predestined. Those who are not called are damned on account of their own sins, which they could only do because their free will was so damaged, making them utterly depraved.

Care to give us a bit of evidence from On the Spirt and the Letter for your own position?
Yes... Augustine was in many ways a very evil man.The fact that Nietzsche rebelled against the western God so influenced by Augustine, Aquinas, Luther and Calvin is not surprising. Nietzsche is therefore IMO one of the greatest saints in the west. What he did was a righteous and heroic thing. Perhaps the greatest evil in christianity, the source of all evil, is Saint Paul himself. At least as he was interpreted in the west. As Nietzsche said and he deserves to be taken seriously:

"Paul thought up the idea, Augustine and Calvin rethought it, that for innumerable people damnation has been decreed from eternity, and that this beautiful world plan was instituted to reveal the glory of God: heaven and hell and humanity are thus supposed to exist - to satisfy the vanity of God! What cruel and insatiable vanity must have flared in the soul of the man who thought this up first, or second. Paul has remained Saul after all - the persecutor of God."

The logical conclusion of the system of Augustine and Calvin  (and Perhaps Saint Paul ) is that the Only one who deserves to be condemned to everlasting tortures in hell is God himself. Perhaps their God will realize that om judgement day, that by creating this world, he made a grotesque and unacceptable mistake.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 11:57:35 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline biro

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Nietzsche killed himself in an insane asylum.

I'm not sure how you can conclude that he really had his act together.
My only weakness is, well, never mind

Offline eddybear

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Which God have I insulted? I highly doubt that Most Christians Believe in the true God. I think Most people Believe in a God of their own imagination, which they then use to terrorise others. That is the God I have experienced and despise. To rebell against a false Tyrant God must be a righteous thing. I admire Nietzsche for ranting against protestant and catholic psychological terrorists.
I would disagree with you here. I think that most Christians believe in, and have experienced, the true God, but the accuracy of their understanding of him varies considerably. The question then is how can we grow in a correct understanding, while continuing to experience Him in truth. And the answer to that is in the Church - both through her teaching, and through meeting Christ in the Sacrament. These are precious gifts that the Lord has given us. Far better to focus your energy here, than on reading things that, at least for now, will only add to your distress.

Offline Rohzek

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Yes... Augustine was in many ways a very evil man.The fact that Nietzsche rebelled against the western God so influenced by Augustine, Aquinas, Luther and Calvin is not surprising. Nietzsche is therefore IMO one of the greatest saints in the west. What he did was a righteous and heroic thing. Perhaps the greatest evil in christianity, the source of all evil, is Saint Paul himself. At least as he was interpreted in the west. As Nietzsche said and he deserves to be taken seriously:

"Paul thought up the idea, Augustine and Calvin rethought it, that for innumerable people damnation has been decreed from eternity, and that this beautiful world plan was instituted to reveal the glory of God: heaven and hell and humanity are thus supposed to exist - to satisfy the vanity of God! What cruel and insatiable vanity must have flared in the soul of the man who thought this up first, or second. Paul has remained Saul after all - the persecutor of God."

The logical conclusion of the system of Augustine and Calvin  (and Perhaps Saint Paul ) is that the Only one who deserves to be condemned to everlasting tortures in hell is God himself. Perhaps their God will realize that om judgement day, that by creating this world, he made a grotesque and unacceptable mistake.

I wouldn't say Augustine was evil. I would say that he was gravely mistaken. And not to be totally random, but you should take a break from theology and go experience some fiction. It seems to me that you have an inability to accept the world as it is or the importance of experience. About your own concerns for Good & Evil, Justice & Righteousness, etc. I'd suggest reading Thornton Wilder's The Bridge of San Luis Rey, play Final Fantasy VI or VII, or watching Season 1 of Gen Urobuchi's Psycho-Pass.

My assessment of the matter is this: If you were as opposed to Augustine's dark vision of God or humanity as you so claim, you wouldn't have such a hard time of accepting an alternative vision of God or humanity. It seems to me that at some level you enjoy the tension that results from such a nihilistic vision. I won't say that there is anything wrong with such catharsis. But do realize that at some point, you will need to move past it somehow.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Yes... Augustine was in many ways a very evil man.The fact that Nietzsche rebelled against the western God so influenced by Augustine, Aquinas, Luther and Calvin is not surprising. Nietzsche is therefore IMO one of the greatest saints in the west. What he did was a righteous and heroic thing. Perhaps the greatest evil in christianity, the source of all evil, is Saint Paul himself. At least as he was interpreted in the west. As Nietzsche said and he deserves to be taken seriously:

"Paul thought up the idea, Augustine and Calvin rethought it, that for innumerable people damnation has been decreed from eternity, and that this beautiful world plan was instituted to reveal the glory of God: heaven and hell and humanity are thus supposed to exist - to satisfy the vanity of God! What cruel and insatiable vanity must have flared in the soul of the man who thought this up first, or second. Paul has remained Saul after all - the persecutor of God."

The logical conclusion of the system of Augustine and Calvin  (and Perhaps Saint Paul ) is that the Only one who deserves to be condemned to everlasting tortures in hell is God himself. Perhaps their God will realize that om judgement day, that by creating this world, he made a grotesque and unacceptable mistake.

I wouldn't say Augustine was evil. I would say that he was gravely mistaken. And not to be totally random, but you should take a break from theology and go experience some fiction. It seems to me that you have an inability to accept the world as it is or the importance of experience. About your own concerns for Good & Evil, Justice & Righteousness, etc. I'd suggest reading Thornton Wilder's The Bridge of San Luis Rey, play Final Fantasy VI or VII, or watching Season 1 of Gen Urobuchi's Psycho-Pass.

My assessment of the matter is this: If you were as opposed to Augustine's dark vision of God or humanity as you so claim, you wouldn't have such a hard time of accepting an alternative vision of God or humanity. It seems to me that at some level you enjoy the tension that results from such a nihilistic vision. I won't say that there is anything wrong with such catharsis. But do realize that at some point, you will need to move past it somehow.

Now we are beginning to approach the truth...
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Is no one going to acknowledge the fact that the quotes from St. Augustine are packed with Scriptural references, and not only from the Apostles but from Christ himself?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Nietzsche killed himself in an insane asylum.

I'm not sure how you can conclude that he really had his act together.
How can one conclude that anyone has his act together? He didnt kill himself btw. He became mentally ill probably because of syphilis. Nietzsches whole philosophy is based on his will to have health he said. Not that he HAD health. But that he truly wanted to have it.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Which God have I insulted? I highly doubt that Most Christians Believe in the true God. I think Most people Believe in a God of their own imagination, which they then use to terrorise others. That is the God I have experienced and despise. To rebell against a false Tyrant God must be a righteous thing. I admire Nietzsche for ranting against protestant and catholic psychological terrorists.
I would disagree with you here. I think that most Christians believe in, and have experienced, the true God, but the accuracy of their understanding of him varies considerably. The question then is how can we grow in a correct understanding, while continuing to experience Him in truth. And the answer to that is in the Church - both through her teaching, and through meeting Christ in the Sacrament. These are precious gifts that the Lord has given us. Far better to focus your energy here, than on reading things that, at least for now, will only add to your distress.
Perhaps then it is necessary to question if the apostle Paul had a completely accurate and infallible understanding of God. Perhaps his interpretation of the mystery of God in Romans 9 for example is flat out wrong?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Nietzsches whole philosophy is based on his will to have health he said. Not that he HAD health. But that he truly wanted to have it.

How special. And after all how could he have been expected to guess that spending a lifetime of writing making Christ one's personal foe would not lead to health?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Which God have I insulted? I highly doubt that Most Christians Believe in the true God. I think Most people Believe in a God of their own imagination, which they then use to terrorise others. That is the God I have experienced and despise. To rebell against a false Tyrant God must be a righteous thing. I admire Nietzsche for ranting against protestant and catholic psychological terrorists.
I would disagree with you here. I think that most Christians believe in, and have experienced, the true God, but the accuracy of their understanding of him varies considerably. The question then is how can we grow in a correct understanding, while continuing to experience Him in truth. And the answer to that is in the Church - both through her teaching, and through meeting Christ in the Sacrament. These are precious gifts that the Lord has given us. Far better to focus your energy here, than on reading things that, at least for now, will only add to your distress.
Perhaps then it is necessary to question if the apostle Paul had a completely accurate and infallible understanding of God. Perhaps his interpretation of the mystery of God in Romans 9 for example is flat out wrong?

Yes I'm sure the Apostle and everyone else except you "worships a false God." Meanwhile your idea of saints are Nietzsche and Leopoldo.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 04:17:25 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Which God have I insulted? I highly doubt that Most Christians Believe in the true God. I think Most people Believe in a God of their own imagination, which they then use to terrorise others. That is the God I have experienced and despise. To rebell against a false Tyrant God must be a righteous thing. I admire Nietzsche for ranting against protestant and catholic psychological terrorists.
I would disagree with you here. I think that most Christians believe in, and have experienced, the true God, but the accuracy of their understanding of him varies considerably. The question then is how can we grow in a correct understanding, while continuing to experience Him in truth. And the answer to that is in the Church - both through her teaching, and through meeting Christ in the Sacrament. These are precious gifts that the Lord has given us. Far better to focus your energy here, than on reading things that, at least for now, will only add to your distress.
You know... Augustine claimed that most people take the sacraments in vain: it doesnt help them. Either they are "elected" or "damned" without any choice of their own. How the Church has accepted this man and Justinian (!) as Saints but not Origen (!!!) is beyond me. Did the crusaders and the Ones behind the inquisition believe in the true God? Or did they Perhaps mistake the devil as being God?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Which God have I insulted? I highly doubt that Most Christians Believe in the true God. I think Most people Believe in a God of their own imagination, which they then use to terrorise others. That is the God I have experienced and despise. To rebell against a false Tyrant God must be a righteous thing. I admire Nietzsche for ranting against protestant and catholic psychological terrorists.
I would disagree with you here. I think that most Christians believe in, and have experienced, the true God, but the accuracy of their understanding of him varies considerably. The question then is how can we grow in a correct understanding, while continuing to experience Him in truth. And the answer to that is in the Church - both through her teaching, and through meeting Christ in the Sacrament. These are precious gifts that the Lord has given us. Far better to focus your energy here, than on reading things that, at least for now, will only add to your distress.
Perhaps then it is necessary to question if the apostle Paul had a completely accurate and infallible understanding of God. Perhaps his interpretation of the mystery of God in Romans 9 for example is flat out wrong?

Yes I'm sure the Apostle and everyone else except you "worships a false God." Meanwhile your idea of saints are Nietzsche and Leopoldo.
I didnt say Paul didnt worship the true God. I am sure he did.And I am sure Augustine did. I just Believe that Paul was not infallible, that he in fact made some mistakes about God even in the letters. His name is Leopardi. He is not a saint. But one of the greatest poets in history. Nor is Nietzsche a saint. That was a willful overstatement made to make a point.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 04:22:46 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Nietzsches whole philosophy is based on his will to have health he said. Not that he HAD health. But that he truly wanted to have it.

How special. And after all how could he have been expected to guess that spending a lifetime of writing making Christ one's personal foe would not lead to health?
He admired Christ. He despised christianity as he knew it.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Which God have I insulted? I highly doubt that Most Christians Believe in the true God. I think Most people Believe in a God of their own imagination, which they then use to terrorise others. That is the God I have experienced and despise. To rebell against a false Tyrant God must be a righteous thing. I admire Nietzsche for ranting against protestant and catholic psychological terrorists.
I would disagree with you here. I think that most Christians believe in, and have experienced, the true God, but the accuracy of their understanding of him varies considerably. The question then is how can we grow in a correct understanding, while continuing to experience Him in truth. And the answer to that is in the Church - both through her teaching, and through meeting Christ in the Sacrament. These are precious gifts that the Lord has given us. Far better to focus your energy here, than on reading things that, at least for now, will only add to your distress.
You know... Augustine claimed that most people take the sacraments in vain: it doesnt help them. Either they are "elected" or "damned" without any choice of their own. How the Church has accepted this man and Justinian (!) as Saints but not Origen (!!!) is beyond me. Did the crusaders and the Ones behind the inquisition believe in the true God? Or did they Perhaps mistake the devil as being God?

That's your interpretation. A more useful understanding of election doesn't divorce it from free will. As eternity is to time, so predestination is to freedom of the will -- complements that appear opposed under mortal scrutiny -- paradoxes, as are all the largest truths.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Which God have I insulted? I highly doubt that Most Christians Believe in the true God. I think Most people Believe in a God of their own imagination, which they then use to terrorise others. That is the God I have experienced and despise. To rebell against a false Tyrant God must be a righteous thing. I admire Nietzsche for ranting against protestant and catholic psychological terrorists.
I would disagree with you here. I think that most Christians believe in, and have experienced, the true God, but the accuracy of their understanding of him varies considerably. The question then is how can we grow in a correct understanding, while continuing to experience Him in truth. And the answer to that is in the Church - both through her teaching, and through meeting Christ in the Sacrament. These are precious gifts that the Lord has given us. Far better to focus your energy here, than on reading things that, at least for now, will only add to your distress.
You know... Augustine claimed that most people take the sacraments in vain: it doesnt help them. Either they are "elected" or "damned" without any choice of their own. How the Church has accepted this man and Justinian (!) as Saints but not Origen (!!!) is beyond me. Did the crusaders and the Ones behind the inquisition believe in the true God? Or did they Perhaps mistake the devil as being God?

That's your interpretation. A more useful understanding of election doesn't divorce it from free will. As eternity is to time, so predestination is to freedom of the will -- complements that appear opposed under mortal scrutiny -- paradoxes, as are all the largest truths.
No that is Augustine's and Calvin's interpretation. And probably Paul's. And my conclusion at this moment in my life is that if their interpretation is right, then atheism is necessary. Then there is no God.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Which God have I insulted? I highly doubt that Most Christians Believe in the true God. I think Most people Believe in a God of their own imagination, which they then use to terrorise others. That is the God I have experienced and despise. To rebell against a false Tyrant God must be a righteous thing. I admire Nietzsche for ranting against protestant and catholic psychological terrorists.
I would disagree with you here. I think that most Christians believe in, and have experienced, the true God, but the accuracy of their understanding of him varies considerably. The question then is how can we grow in a correct understanding, while continuing to experience Him in truth. And the answer to that is in the Church - both through her teaching, and through meeting Christ in the Sacrament. These are precious gifts that the Lord has given us. Far better to focus your energy here, than on reading things that, at least for now, will only add to your distress.
You know... Augustine claimed that most people take the sacraments in vain: it doesnt help them. Either they are "elected" or "damned" without any choice of their own. How the Church has accepted this man and Justinian (!) as Saints but not Origen (!!!) is beyond me. Did the crusaders and the Ones behind the inquisition believe in the true God? Or did they Perhaps mistake the devil as being God?

That's your interpretation. A more useful understanding of election doesn't divorce it from free will. As eternity is to time, so predestination is to freedom of the will -- complements that appear opposed under mortal scrutiny -- paradoxes, as are all the largest truths.
And what is the paradox? Man creates a paradox where there is none.  When the orthodox church officially opposed calvinism they said that there is indeed predestination, but that this predestination is based om foreknowledge! Foreknowledge of the perdition of one person because of that person's misused freedom predestined him to hell before the foundation of the world! And yet, God created the world! He, eternal love, willed the world to come in to existence despite the misused freedom and eternal suffering of many! What God foreknows, he also wills. There is no paradox. All traditional thought inevitably leads to the same conclusion. Though some denies it. And others call it freedom of the Will. Unless you say that God has no power over freedom and that freedom is uncreated?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Yes... Augustine was in many ways a very evil man.The fact that Nietzsche rebelled against the western God so influenced by Augustine, Aquinas, Luther and Calvin is not surprising. Nietzsche is therefore IMO one of the greatest saints in the west. What he did was a righteous and heroic thing. Perhaps the greatest evil in christianity, the source of all evil, is Saint Paul himself. At least as he was interpreted in the west. As Nietzsche said and he deserves to be taken seriously:

"Paul thought up the idea, Augustine and Calvin rethought it, that for innumerable people damnation has been decreed from eternity, and that this beautiful world plan was instituted to reveal the glory of God: heaven and hell and humanity are thus supposed to exist - to satisfy the vanity of God! What cruel and insatiable vanity must have flared in the soul of the man who thought this up first, or second. Paul has remained Saul after all - the persecutor of God."

The logical conclusion of the system of Augustine and Calvin  (and Perhaps Saint Paul ) is that the Only one who deserves to be condemned to everlasting tortures in hell is God himself. Perhaps their God will realize that om judgement day, that by creating this world, he made a grotesque and unacceptable mistake.

I wouldn't say Augustine was evil. I would say that he was gravely mistaken. And not to be totally random, but you should take a break from theology and go experience some fiction. It seems to me that you have an inability to accept the world as it is or the importance of experience. About your own concerns for Good & Evil, Justice & Righteousness, etc. I'd suggest reading Thornton Wilder's The Bridge of San Luis Rey, play Final Fantasy VI or VII, or watching Season 1 of Gen Urobuchi's Psycho-Pass.

My assessment of the matter is this: If you were as opposed to Augustine's dark vision of God or humanity as you so claim, you wouldn't have such a hard time of accepting an alternative vision of God or humanity. It seems to me that at some level you enjoy the tension that results from such a nihilistic vision. I won't say that there is anything wrong with such catharsis. But do realize that at some point, you will need to move past it somehow.
You make some really Good Points actually! I am extremely influenced by Augustine and Calvin etc. And I believe that they need to be overcome. Even Paul in a certain sense needs to be overcome. I mean what they wrote. Something is needed. God might be all-powerful over being but perhaps he has no power over non-being for example? Perhaps freedom is uncreated, something over which God has no power?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Which God have I insulted? I highly doubt that Most Christians Believe in the true God. I think Most people Believe in a God of their own imagination, which they then use to terrorise others. That is the God I have experienced and despise. To rebell against a false Tyrant God must be a righteous thing. I admire Nietzsche for ranting against protestant and catholic psychological terrorists.
I would disagree with you here. I think that most Christians believe in, and have experienced, the true God, but the accuracy of their understanding of him varies considerably. The question then is how can we grow in a correct understanding, while continuing to experience Him in truth. And the answer to that is in the Church - both through her teaching, and through meeting Christ in the Sacrament. These are precious gifts that the Lord has given us. Far better to focus your energy here, than on reading things that, at least for now, will only add to your distress.
You know... Augustine claimed that most people take the sacraments in vain: it doesnt help them. Either they are "elected" or "damned" without any choice of their own. How the Church has accepted this man and Justinian (!) as Saints but not Origen (!!!) is beyond me. Did the crusaders and the Ones behind the inquisition believe in the true God? Or did they Perhaps mistake the devil as being God?

That's your interpretation. A more useful understanding of election doesn't divorce it from free will. As eternity is to time, so predestination is to freedom of the will -- complements that appear opposed under mortal scrutiny -- paradoxes, as are all the largest truths.
No that is Augustine's and Calvin's interpretation. And probably Paul's. And my conclusion at this moment in my life is that if their interpretation is right, then atheism is necessary. Then there is no God.

God is all-powerful, ergo, there is no God. Am I doing it right?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Which God have I insulted? I highly doubt that Most Christians Believe in the true God. I think Most people Believe in a God of their own imagination, which they then use to terrorise others. That is the God I have experienced and despise. To rebell against a false Tyrant God must be a righteous thing. I admire Nietzsche for ranting against protestant and catholic psychological terrorists.
I would disagree with you here. I think that most Christians believe in, and have experienced, the true God, but the accuracy of their understanding of him varies considerably. The question then is how can we grow in a correct understanding, while continuing to experience Him in truth. And the answer to that is in the Church - both through her teaching, and through meeting Christ in the Sacrament. These are precious gifts that the Lord has given us. Far better to focus your energy here, than on reading things that, at least for now, will only add to your distress.
You know... Augustine claimed that most people take the sacraments in vain: it doesnt help them. Either they are "elected" or "damned" without any choice of their own. How the Church has accepted this man and Justinian (!) as Saints but not Origen (!!!) is beyond me. Did the crusaders and the Ones behind the inquisition believe in the true God? Or did they Perhaps mistake the devil as being God?

That's your interpretation. A more useful understanding of election doesn't divorce it from free will. As eternity is to time, so predestination is to freedom of the will -- complements that appear opposed under mortal scrutiny -- paradoxes, as are all the largest truths.
No that is Augustine's and Calvin's interpretation. And probably Paul's. And my conclusion at this moment in my life is that if their interpretation is right, then atheism is necessary. Then there is no God.

God is all-powerful, ergo, there is no God. Am I doing it right?
If the Word "all-powerful" is to be interpreted as it has normally been yes. That is the source of atheism. As I said : what is the paradox? Man creates a paradox where there is none.  When the orthodox church officially opposed calvinism they said that there is indeed predestination, but that this predestination is based om foreknowledge! Foreknowledge of the perdition of one person because of that person's misused freedom predestined him to hell before the foundation of the world! And yet, God created the world! He, eternal love, willed the world to come in to existence despite the misused freedom and eternal suffering of many! What God foreknows, he also wills. There is no paradox. All traditional thought inevitably leads to the same conclusion. Though some denies it. And others call it freedom of the Will. Unless you say that God has no power over freedom and that freedom is uncreated?
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 05:45:37 PM by beebert »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Which God have I insulted? I highly doubt that Most Christians Believe in the true God. I think Most people Believe in a God of their own imagination, which they then use to terrorise others. That is the God I have experienced and despise. To rebell against a false Tyrant God must be a righteous thing. I admire Nietzsche for ranting against protestant and catholic psychological terrorists.
I would disagree with you here. I think that most Christians believe in, and have experienced, the true God, but the accuracy of their understanding of him varies considerably. The question then is how can we grow in a correct understanding, while continuing to experience Him in truth. And the answer to that is in the Church - both through her teaching, and through meeting Christ in the Sacrament. These are precious gifts that the Lord has given us. Far better to focus your energy here, than on reading things that, at least for now, will only add to your distress.
You know... Augustine claimed that most people take the sacraments in vain: it doesnt help them. Either they are "elected" or "damned" without any choice of their own. How the Church has accepted this man and Justinian (!) as Saints but not Origen (!!!) is beyond me. Did the crusaders and the Ones behind the inquisition believe in the true God? Or did they Perhaps mistake the devil as being God?

That's your interpretation. A more useful understanding of election doesn't divorce it from free will. As eternity is to time, so predestination is to freedom of the will -- complements that appear opposed under mortal scrutiny -- paradoxes, as are all the largest truths.
No that is Augustine's and Calvin's interpretation. And probably Paul's. And my conclusion at this moment in my life is that if their interpretation is right, then atheism is necessary. Then there is no God.

God is all-powerful, ergo, there is no God. Am I doing it right?
If the Word "all-powerful" is to be interpreted as it has normally been yes. That is the source of atheism. As I said : what is the paradox? Man creates a paradox where there is none.  When the orthodox church officially opposed calvinism they said that there is indeed predestination, but that this predestination is based om foreknowledge! Foreknowledge of the perdition of one person because of that person's misused freedom predestined him to hell before the foundation of the world! And yet, God created the world! He, eternal love, willed the world to come in to existence despite the misused freedom and eternal suffering of many! What God foreknows, he also wills. There is no paradox. All traditional thought inevitably leads to the same conclusion. Though some denies it. And others call it freedom of the Will. Unless you say that God has no power over freedom and that freedom is uncreated?

You can add as many words as you like, but you're still implying that GodIDontLike == NoGod. You even call it a logical necessity. So, yeah, you have some 'splaining to do.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Which God have I insulted? I highly doubt that Most Christians Believe in the true God. I think Most people Believe in a God of their own imagination, which they then use to terrorise others. That is the God I have experienced and despise. To rebell against a false Tyrant God must be a righteous thing. I admire Nietzsche for ranting against protestant and catholic psychological terrorists.
I would disagree with you here. I think that most Christians believe in, and have experienced, the true God, but the accuracy of their understanding of him varies considerably. The question then is how can we grow in a correct understanding, while continuing to experience Him in truth. And the answer to that is in the Church - both through her teaching, and through meeting Christ in the Sacrament. These are precious gifts that the Lord has given us. Far better to focus your energy here, than on reading things that, at least for now, will only add to your distress.
You know... Augustine claimed that most people take the sacraments in vain: it doesnt help them. Either they are "elected" or "damned" without any choice of their own. How the Church has accepted this man and Justinian (!) as Saints but not Origen (!!!) is beyond me. Did the crusaders and the Ones behind the inquisition believe in the true God? Or did they Perhaps mistake the devil as being God?

That's your interpretation. A more useful understanding of election doesn't divorce it from free will. As eternity is to time, so predestination is to freedom of the will -- complements that appear opposed under mortal scrutiny -- paradoxes, as are all the largest truths.
No that is Augustine's and Calvin's interpretation. And probably Paul's. And my conclusion at this moment in my life is that if their interpretation is right, then atheism is necessary. Then there is no God.

God is all-powerful, ergo, there is no God. Am I doing it right?
If the Word "all-powerful" is to be interpreted as it has normally been yes. That is the source of atheism. As I said : what is the paradox? Man creates a paradox where there is none.  When the orthodox church officially opposed calvinism they said that there is indeed predestination, but that this predestination is based om foreknowledge! Foreknowledge of the perdition of one person because of that person's misused freedom predestined him to hell before the foundation of the world! And yet, God created the world! He, eternal love, willed the world to come in to existence despite the misused freedom and eternal suffering of many! What God foreknows, he also wills. There is no paradox. All traditional thought inevitably leads to the same conclusion. Though some denies it. And others call it freedom of the Will. Unless you say that God has no power over freedom and that freedom is uncreated?

You can add as many words as you like, but you're still implying that GodIDontLike == NoGod. You even call it a logical necessity. So, yeah, you have some 'splaining to do.
Well. IF theologians have interpreted this correctly then God seems to me to be evil. Venegance, jealousy etc. Are attributes described to God. Yet when a human is vengeful and jealous People consider it to be reprehensible. It is a logical necessity to be anti-theist if God has damned People before they are born. To me it even feels horrible to sense that God foreknows my fate.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 06:21:24 PM by beebert »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Oh okay. So by "atheism" you meant fighting God who does exist. Well, that's certainly in keeping with the impious men you admire. How killing the one from whom you came, from whom you derive sense and judgment, and who gave you everything you richly enjoy is a superior moral choice I'll leave you and the mob of early- twentieth century pseudo-intellectuals to explain. Which I'm sure you will do without hesitation as soon as I press Post. Pondering is for the weak and grateful.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Oh okay. So by "atheism" you meant fighting God who does exist. Well, that's certainly in keeping with the impious men you admire. How killing the one from whom you came, from whom you derive sense and judgment, and who gave you everything you richly enjoy is a superior moral choice I'll leave you and the mob of early- twentieth century pseudo-intellectuals to explain. Which I'm sure you will do without hesitation as soon as I press Post. Pondering is for the weak and grateful.
If there was no hell, I think I would have killed myself today. Shall I admire and worship someone who created me just in order so that he could destroy me by torturing fire? A man who is tortured Long enough would rather want to die. Yet traditional theology says God planned it to be a hell where people will be tortured forever. Nothing there to be grateful about. It would have been so much better not to create the world at all then. Have you ever seen a suffering Child? A man torturing Another? Another attribute this to God is reprehensible. IF God is behind this, as in predestinating it, även foreknowing it and predestining it based on foreknowledge (which Is basically the same thing) then I refuse to worship him. Then life is the worst possible nightmare. Now I must sleep. Work tomorrow... Tomorrow I can present the Only possible alternative to this theological problem that I can right now come up with that could save me from this nightmare. Though I highly doubt People would accept the idea.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 06:55:40 PM by beebert »
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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #100 on: June 11, 2017, 06:55:01 PM »
Yes... Augustine was in many ways a very evil man.The fact that Nietzsche rebelled against the western God so influenced by Augustine, Aquinas, Luther and Calvin is not surprising. Nietzsche is therefore IMO one of the greatest saints in the west. What he did was a righteous and heroic thing. Perhaps the greatest evil in christianity, the source of all evil, is Saint Paul himself. At least as he was interpreted in the west. As Nietzsche said and he deserves to be taken seriously:

"Paul thought up the idea, Augustine and Calvin rethought it, that for innumerable people damnation has been decreed from eternity, and that this beautiful world plan was instituted to reveal the glory of God: heaven and hell and humanity are thus supposed to exist - to satisfy the vanity of God! What cruel and insatiable vanity must have flared in the soul of the man who thought this up first, or second. Paul has remained Saul after all - the persecutor of God."

The logical conclusion of the system of Augustine and Calvin  (and Perhaps Saint Paul ) is that the Only one who deserves to be condemned to everlasting tortures in hell is God himself. Perhaps their God will realize that om judgement day, that by creating this world, he made a grotesque and unacceptable mistake.

I wouldn't say Augustine was evil. I would say that he was gravely mistaken. And not to be totally random, but you should take a break from theology and go experience some fiction. It seems to me that you have an inability to accept the world as it is or the importance of experience. About your own concerns for Good & Evil, Justice & Righteousness, etc. I'd suggest reading Thornton Wilder's The Bridge of San Luis Rey, play Final Fantasy VI or VII, or watching Season 1 of Gen Urobuchi's Psycho-Pass.

My assessment of the matter is this: If you were as opposed to Augustine's dark vision of God or humanity as you so claim, you wouldn't have such a hard time of accepting an alternative vision of God or humanity. It seems to me that at some level you enjoy the tension that results from such a nihilistic vision. I won't say that there is anything wrong with such catharsis. But do realize that at some point, you will need to move past it somehow.
You make some really Good Points actually! I am extremely influenced by Augustine and Calvin etc. And I believe that they need to be overcome. Even Paul in a certain sense needs to be overcome. I mean what they wrote. Something is needed. God might be all-powerful over being but perhaps he has no power over non-being for example? Perhaps freedom is uncreated, something over which God has no power?

Freedom is just conceptual. Don't give it concrete existence. Like I said, take a break from theology for once and go experience something else. You'll have plenty of time to relish problems afterwards.

Which God have I insulted? I highly doubt that Most Christians Believe in the true God. I think Most people Believe in a God of their own imagination, which they then use to terrorise others. That is the God I have experienced and despise. To rebell against a false Tyrant God must be a righteous thing. I admire Nietzsche for ranting against protestant and catholic psychological terrorists.
I would disagree with you here. I think that most Christians believe in, and have experienced, the true God, but the accuracy of their understanding of him varies considerably. The question then is how can we grow in a correct understanding, while continuing to experience Him in truth. And the answer to that is in the Church - both through her teaching, and through meeting Christ in the Sacrament. These are precious gifts that the Lord has given us. Far better to focus your energy here, than on reading things that, at least for now, will only add to your distress.
You know... Augustine claimed that most people take the sacraments in vain: it doesnt help them. Either they are "elected" or "damned" without any choice of their own. How the Church has accepted this man and Justinian (!) as Saints but not Origen (!!!) is beyond me. Did the crusaders and the Ones behind the inquisition believe in the true God? Or did they Perhaps mistake the devil as being God?

That's your interpretation. A more useful understanding of election doesn't divorce it from free will. As eternity is to time, so predestination is to freedom of the will -- complements that appear opposed under mortal scrutiny -- paradoxes, as are all the largest truths.
No that is Augustine's and Calvin's interpretation. And probably Paul's. And my conclusion at this moment in my life is that if their interpretation is right, then atheism is necessary. Then there is no God.

God is all-powerful, ergo, there is no God. Am I doing it right?
If the Word "all-powerful" is to be interpreted as it has normally been yes. That is the source of atheism. As I said : what is the paradox? Man creates a paradox where there is none.  When the orthodox church officially opposed calvinism they said that there is indeed predestination, but that this predestination is based om foreknowledge! Foreknowledge of the perdition of one person because of that person's misused freedom predestined him to hell before the foundation of the world! And yet, God created the world! He, eternal love, willed the world to come in to existence despite the misused freedom and eternal suffering of many! What God foreknows, he also wills. There is no paradox. All traditional thought inevitably leads to the same conclusion. Though some denies it. And others call it freedom of the Will. Unless you say that God has no power over freedom and that freedom is uncreated?

First, I disagree with your conclusion. Just because God might be evil or disagreeable, it does not therefore mean that he does not exist. I once thought God as a reprehensible figure for all of my own misfortunes. When I was convinced that he was of such character, I faced two options: quit belief or enter into a battle against God that I knew I would most certainly lose. I tried for like 2 weeks to not believe. I couldn't do it. I felt such attempts to be the act of a coward. So I entered into an animus against God, but with a sense of pride and utter relish. Obviously, I'm not that way now, and I do not intend to share my own experience any further for the sake of my own privacy and my conviction that it would be of no use here.

As for your aside about God's will, herein is your problem. God's will has three aspects: 1.) that which He wills and serves as the efficient cause; 2.) that which He wills and merely approves of; and 3.) that which He permits. In the sense that God wills evil, it is strictly in the sense that He permits it.

In all honesty though, aside from your own enjoyment of nihilism, I'm not sure why you seem to only have considered Augustine or Calvin's reading of Romans. While I seriously suggest that you disengage for a while from theology and go do something else, especially liberal artsy, if you won't listen to such advise, then I can only suggest that you read Tychonius' Book of Rules which offers a serious analysis of Romans that differs from Augustine. I think you should also read St. John Cassian, St. Vincent of Lérins, Boethius, or John Scotus Eriugena. I'd also suggest St. Faustus of Rietz, but his work remains untranslated.

Cassian's Conferences: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3506.htm
Vincent's Commonitory: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3506.htm
Tychonius: Book of Rules https://www.amazon.com/Tyconius-Translations-Society-Biblical-Literature/dp/1555403670/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1497221230&sr=8-2&keywords=tyconius+book+of+rules
Boethius: The Consolation of Philosophy: https://www.amazon.com/Consolation-Philosophy-Boethius/dp/1614270457/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1497221436&sr=1-1&keywords=boethius+consolation+of+philosophy+richard+green
John Scotus Eriugena: On Divine Predestination: https://www.amazon.com/Treatise-Divine-Predestination-Medieval-Culture/dp/0268042217/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1497221518&sr=1-7&keywords=john+scotus+eriugena

Again though, I think you'd be better off delving into other things besides theology for the time being. I'm not telling you to abandon your catharsis, which is easier said than done. I'm just saying there is a more productive way to go about it.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 06:58:57 PM by Rohzek »
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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #101 on: June 11, 2017, 06:58:38 PM »
This seems relevant here. When faced with the possibility that some Church Fathers like Augustine, Ambrose and Jerome might have taught the filioque doctrine, St. Photius answered this in various ways. Here was one of his arguments:

Quote
It is possible to find many other examples in our holy and blessed fathers. I have in mind Clement, one of the bishops of [Old] Rome. Consider the books which are known from him as Clementine (I do not say write because, according to ancient report, Peter the Coryphaeus commanded they be written). Consider also Dionysius of Alexandria, who in stretching out his hand against Sabellius nearly joins with Arius. Consider also the splendour of the sacred-martyr, Methodius the Great of Patara, who did not reject the idea that angels fell into mortal desire and bodily intercourse, even though they are incorporeal and without passions. I shall pass over Pantaenos, Clement, Pierios, Pamphilos and Theognostos, all holy men and teachers of holy disciples whom we hymn with great honour and affection, especially Pamphilos and Pierios, distinguished by the trials of martyrdom.

Although we do not accept all of their statements, we grant them honour for their patient disposition and goodness of life and for their other doctrines. In addition to those previously mentioned, there is Irenaeus, the bishop of God, who received the supervision of sacred things in Lyons and also Hippolytus, his disciple, the Episcopal martyr: all of these were admirable in many ways, though at times some of their writings do not avoid departing from orthodoxy

-- St. Photius the Great, Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit, 75

Beebert, read this quoted post, and consider how you discuss ancient church fathers in disagreeing with them without addressing their person directly.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline beebert

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #102 on: June 11, 2017, 06:59:55 PM »
I have written a poem that ends like this:
"And in this hideous despair,
Where was a man, nay a God
Who cared?"

« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 07:05:03 PM by beebert »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #103 on: June 11, 2017, 07:03:06 PM »
I have written a poem that ends like this:
"And in this hideous despair,
Where was a man, nay a God
Who cared?"

In celebration, I've rented you your own personal orchestra.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 07:03:35 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #104 on: June 11, 2017, 07:05:21 PM »
I have written a poem that ends like this:
"And in this hideous despair,
Where was a man, nay a God
Who cared?"

In celebration, I've rented you your own personal orchestra.

And earlier in the poem we have this :
"All spoke of the tortures of hell
But no one mentioned the boredom of heaven"

IF Augustine and Calvin were right: Sure! Sand me to hell! I rather be there than worshipping their Tyrant in heaven. But send me there ALONE. NO one else should suffer because of the fate of being born.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #105 on: June 11, 2017, 07:10:44 PM »
I have written a poem that ends like this:
"And in this hideous despair,
Where was a man, nay a God
Who cared?"

In celebration, I've rented you your own personal orchestra.

And earlier in the poem we have this :
"All spoke of the tortures of hell
But no one mentioned the boredom of heaven"

IF Augustine and Calvin were right: Sure! Sand me to hell! I rather be there than worshipping their Tyrant in heaven. But send me there ALONE. NO one else should suffer because of the fate of being born.

How very popular you would have been among wealthy college-boys of the 1890s.

Has it ever occurred to you that you curse the wonderful life you revel in, with all this? You, wrapped in sunshine, filled with good things, held up by strong bones and tendons, surrounded by variety and beauty, with a mind to enjoy it all.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #106 on: June 11, 2017, 07:17:31 PM »
I have written a poem that ends like this:
"And in this hideous despair,
Where was a man, nay a God
Who cared?"

In celebration, I've rented you your own personal orchestra.

And earlier in the poem we have this :
"All spoke of the tortures of hell
But no one mentioned the boredom of heaven"

IF Augustine and Calvin were right: Sure! Sand me to hell! I rather be there than worshipping their Tyrant in heaven. But send me there ALONE. NO one else should suffer because of the fate of being born.

How very popular you would have been among wealthy college-boys of the 1890s.

Has it ever occurred to you that you curse the wonderful life you revel in, with all this? You, wrapped in sunshine, filled with good things, held up by strong bones and tendons, surrounded by variety and beauty, with a mind to enjoy it all.
Before God turns up and curses me for enjoying my life? No not even that! Cursing me because I was Born and created. Cursing me just because he created me only for the purpose of cursing and torturing me after death? How can I then possibly enjoy life, with the terrors not only of this life but of eternal hell after this life as well constantly behind my back, constantly torturing my mind? Looking around me seeing all these happy People, not being aware of that they are here just in order to be infinitely tortured for God's self-glorification? Would you enjoy such a life?
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 07:18:14 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #107 on: June 11, 2017, 07:18:30 PM »
I have written a poem that ends like this:
"And in this hideous despair,
Where was a man, nay a God
Who cared?"

In celebration, I've rented you your own personal orchestra.

And earlier in the poem we have this :
"All spoke of the tortures of hell
But no one mentioned the boredom of heaven"

IF Augustine and Calvin were right: Sure! Sand me to hell! I rather be there than worshipping their Tyrant in heaven. But send me there ALONE. NO one else should suffer because of the fate of being born.

How very popular you would have been among wealthy college-boys of the 1890s.

Has it ever occurred to you that you curse the wonderful life you revel in, with all this? You, wrapped in sunshine, filled with good things, held up by strong bones and tendons, surrounded by variety and beauty, with a mind to enjoy it all.
Before God turns up and curses me for enjoying my life? No not even that! Cursing me because I was Born and created. Cursing me just because he created me only for the purpose of cursing and torturing me after death? How can I then possibly enjoy life, with the terrors not only of this life but of eternal hell after this life as well constantly behind my back, constantly torturing my mind? Looking around me seeing all these happy People, not being aware of that they are just here in order to be infinitely tortured? Would you enjoy such a life?

Oh yes he has cursed you so. Cursed you with an extra helping of dinner today, if I don't miss my guess.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #108 on: June 11, 2017, 07:20:09 PM »
I have written a poem that ends like this:
"And in this hideous despair,
Where was a man, nay a God
Who cared?"

In celebration, I've rented you your own personal orchestra.

And earlier in the poem we have this :
"All spoke of the tortures of hell
But no one mentioned the boredom of heaven"

IF Augustine and Calvin were right: Sure! Sand me to hell! I rather be there than worshipping their Tyrant in heaven. But send me there ALONE. NO one else should suffer because of the fate of being born.

How very popular you would have been among wealthy college-boys of the 1890s.

Has it ever occurred to you that you curse the wonderful life you revel in, with all this? You, wrapped in sunshine, filled with good things, held up by strong bones and tendons, surrounded by variety and beauty, with a mind to enjoy it all.
Before God turns up and curses me for enjoying my life? No not even that! Cursing me because I was Born and created. Cursing me just because he created me only for the purpose of cursing and torturing me after death? How can I then possibly enjoy life, with the terrors not only of this life but of eternal hell after this life as well constantly behind my back, constantly torturing my mind? Looking around me seeing all these happy People, not being aware of that they are just here in order to be infinitely tortured? Would you enjoy such a life?

Oh yes he has cursed you so. Cursed you with an extra helping of dinner today, if I don't miss my guess.
Mock me all you want. Good night.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline biro

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #109 on: June 11, 2017, 07:21:49 PM »
Yet another kid reads a couple cursory philosophy books and turns into a ranting crank who thinks he knows it all. Good riddance.  ::)
My only weakness is, well, never mind

Offline beebert

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #110 on: June 11, 2017, 07:22:12 PM »
Yes... Augustine was in many ways a very evil man.The fact that Nietzsche rebelled against the western God so influenced by Augustine, Aquinas, Luther and Calvin is not surprising. Nietzsche is therefore IMO one of the greatest saints in the west. What he did was a righteous and heroic thing. Perhaps the greatest evil in christianity, the source of all evil, is Saint Paul himself. At least as he was interpreted in the west. As Nietzsche said and he deserves to be taken seriously:

"Paul thought up the idea, Augustine and Calvin rethought it, that for innumerable people damnation has been decreed from eternity, and that this beautiful world plan was instituted to reveal the glory of God: heaven and hell and humanity are thus supposed to exist - to satisfy the vanity of God! What cruel and insatiable vanity must have flared in the soul of the man who thought this up first, or second. Paul has remained Saul after all - the persecutor of God."

The logical conclusion of the system of Augustine and Calvin  (and Perhaps Saint Paul ) is that the Only one who deserves to be condemned to everlasting tortures in hell is God himself. Perhaps their God will realize that om judgement day, that by creating this world, he made a grotesque and unacceptable mistake.

I wouldn't say Augustine was evil. I would say that he was gravely mistaken. And not to be totally random, but you should take a break from theology and go experience some fiction. It seems to me that you have an inability to accept the world as it is or the importance of experience. About your own concerns for Good & Evil, Justice & Righteousness, etc. I'd suggest reading Thornton Wilder's The Bridge of San Luis Rey, play Final Fantasy VI or VII, or watching Season 1 of Gen Urobuchi's Psycho-Pass.

My assessment of the matter is this: If you were as opposed to Augustine's dark vision of God or humanity as you so claim, you wouldn't have such a hard time of accepting an alternative vision of God or humanity. It seems to me that at some level you enjoy the tension that results from such a nihilistic vision. I won't say that there is anything wrong with such catharsis. But do realize that at some point, you will need to move past it somehow.
You make some really Good Points actually! I am extremely influenced by Augustine and Calvin etc. And I believe that they need to be overcome. Even Paul in a certain sense needs to be overcome. I mean what they wrote. Something is needed. God might be all-powerful over being but perhaps he has no power over non-being for example? Perhaps freedom is uncreated, something over which God has no power?

Freedom is just conceptual. Don't give it concrete existence. Like I said, take a break from theology for once and go experience something else. You'll have plenty of time to relish problems afterwards.

Which God have I insulted? I highly doubt that Most Christians Believe in the true God. I think Most people Believe in a God of their own imagination, which they then use to terrorise others. That is the God I have experienced and despise. To rebell against a false Tyrant God must be a righteous thing. I admire Nietzsche for ranting against protestant and catholic psychological terrorists.
I would disagree with you here. I think that most Christians believe in, and have experienced, the true God, but the accuracy of their understanding of him varies considerably. The question then is how can we grow in a correct understanding, while continuing to experience Him in truth. And the answer to that is in the Church - both through her teaching, and through meeting Christ in the Sacrament. These are precious gifts that the Lord has given us. Far better to focus your energy here, than on reading things that, at least for now, will only add to your distress.
You know... Augustine claimed that most people take the sacraments in vain: it doesnt help them. Either they are "elected" or "damned" without any choice of their own. How the Church has accepted this man and Justinian (!) as Saints but not Origen (!!!) is beyond me. Did the crusaders and the Ones behind the inquisition believe in the true God? Or did they Perhaps mistake the devil as being God?

That's your interpretation. A more useful understanding of election doesn't divorce it from free will. As eternity is to time, so predestination is to freedom of the will -- complements that appear opposed under mortal scrutiny -- paradoxes, as are all the largest truths.
No that is Augustine's and Calvin's interpretation. And probably Paul's. And my conclusion at this moment in my life is that if their interpretation is right, then atheism is necessary. Then there is no God.

God is all-powerful, ergo, there is no God. Am I doing it right?
If the Word "all-powerful" is to be interpreted as it has normally been yes. That is the source of atheism. As I said : what is the paradox? Man creates a paradox where there is none.  When the orthodox church officially opposed calvinism they said that there is indeed predestination, but that this predestination is based om foreknowledge! Foreknowledge of the perdition of one person because of that person's misused freedom predestined him to hell before the foundation of the world! And yet, God created the world! He, eternal love, willed the world to come in to existence despite the misused freedom and eternal suffering of many! What God foreknows, he also wills. There is no paradox. All traditional thought inevitably leads to the same conclusion. Though some denies it. And others call it freedom of the Will. Unless you say that God has no power over freedom and that freedom is uncreated?

First, I disagree with your conclusion. Just because God might be evil or disagreeable, it does not therefore mean that he does not exist. I once thought God as a reprehensible figure for all of my own misfortunes. When I was convinced that he was of such character, I faced two options: quit belief or enter into a battle against God that I knew I would most certainly lose. I tried for like 2 weeks to not believe. I couldn't do it. I felt such attempts to be the act of a coward. So I entered into an animus against God, but with a sense of pride and utter relish. Obviously, I'm not that way now, and I do not intend to share my own experience any further for the sake of my own privacy and my conviction that it would be of no use here.

As for your aside about God's will, herein is your problem. God's will has three aspects: 1.) that which He wills and serves as the efficient cause; 2.) that which He wills and merely approves of; and 3.) that which He permits. In the sense that God wills evil, it is strictly in the sense that He permits it.

In all honesty though, aside from your own enjoyment of nihilism, I'm not sure why you seem to only have considered Augustine or Calvin's reading of Romans. While I seriously suggest that you disengage for a while from theology and go do something else, especially liberal artsy, if you won't listen to such advise, then I can only suggest that you read Tychonius' Book of Rules which offers a serious analysis of Romans that differs from Augustine. I think you should also read St. John Cassian, St. Vincent of Lérins, Boethius, or John Scotus Eriugena. I'd also suggest St. Faustus of Rietz, but his work remains untranslated.

Cassian's Conferences: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3506.htm
Vincent's Commonitory: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3506.htm
Tychonius: Book of Rules https://www.amazon.com/Tyconius-Translations-Society-Biblical-Literature/dp/1555403670/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1497221230&sr=8-2&keywords=tyconius+book+of+rules
Boethius: The Consolation of Philosophy: https://www.amazon.com/Consolation-Philosophy-Boethius/dp/1614270457/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1497221436&sr=1-1&keywords=boethius+consolation+of+philosophy+richard+green
John Scotus Eriugena: On Divine Predestination: https://www.amazon.com/Treatise-Divine-Predestination-Medieval-Culture/dp/0268042217/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1497221518&sr=1-7&keywords=john+scotus+eriugena

Again though, I think you'd be better off delving into other things besides theology for the time being. I'm not telling you to abandon your catharsis, which is easier said than done. I'm just saying there is a more productive way to go about it.
I have read your post! It was very constructive and I thank you for it! I will answer it tomorrow, since now I really need to sleep...
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #111 on: June 11, 2017, 07:25:04 PM »
Yet another kid reads a couple cursory philosophy books and turns into a ranting crank who thinks he knows it all. Good riddance.  ::)
Cursory? Really? I dont suggest I know anything. One of my major convictions is that the world truly is our representation. Mock me all you want though.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #112 on: June 11, 2017, 07:32:10 PM »
I have written a poem that ends like this:
"And in this hideous despair,
Where was a man, nay a God
Who cared?"

In celebration, I've rented you your own personal orchestra.

And earlier in the poem we have this :
"All spoke of the tortures of hell
But no one mentioned the boredom of heaven"

IF Augustine and Calvin were right: Sure! Sand me to hell! I rather be there than worshipping their Tyrant in heaven. But send me there ALONE. NO one else should suffer because of the fate of being born.

How very popular you would have been among wealthy college-boys of the 1890s.

Has it ever occurred to you that you curse the wonderful life you revel in, with all this? You, wrapped in sunshine, filled with good things, held up by strong bones and tendons, surrounded by variety and beauty, with a mind to enjoy it all.
Before God turns up and curses me for enjoying my life? No not even that! Cursing me because I was Born and created. Cursing me just because he created me only for the purpose of cursing and torturing me after death? How can I then possibly enjoy life, with the terrors not only of this life but of eternal hell after this life as well constantly behind my back, constantly torturing my mind? Looking around me seeing all these happy People, not being aware of that they are just here in order to be infinitely tortured? Would you enjoy such a life?

Oh yes he has cursed you so. Cursed you with an extra helping of dinner today, if I don't miss my guess.
Mock me all you want. Good night.

"He giveth his beloved sleep" (Psalmist).
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #113 on: June 11, 2017, 07:39:12 PM »
I have written a poem that ends like this:
"And in this hideous despair,
Where was a man, nay a God
Who cared?"

In celebration, I've rented you your own personal orchestra.

And earlier in the poem we have this :
"All spoke of the tortures of hell
But no one mentioned the boredom of heaven"

IF Augustine and Calvin were right: Sure! Sand me to hell! I rather be there than worshipping their Tyrant in heaven. But send me there ALONE. NO one else should suffer because of the fate of being born.

How very popular you would have been among wealthy college-boys of the 1890s.

Has it ever occurred to you that you curse the wonderful life you revel in, with all this? You, wrapped in sunshine, filled with good things, held up by strong bones and tendons, surrounded by variety and beauty, with a mind to enjoy it all.
Before God turns up and curses me for enjoying my life? No not even that! Cursing me because I was Born and created. Cursing me just because he created me only for the purpose of cursing and torturing me after death? How can I then possibly enjoy life, with the terrors not only of this life but of eternal hell after this life as well constantly behind my back, constantly torturing my mind? Looking around me seeing all these happy People, not being aware of that they are just here in order to be infinitely tortured? Would you enjoy such a life?

Oh yes he has cursed you so. Cursed you with an extra helping of dinner today, if I don't miss my guess.
Mock me all you want. Good night.

"He giveth his beloved sleep" (Psalmist).
Well Then Maybe suicide is the Only solution if I am forced to thank him because I must sleep in order to not fall asleep at work. I will continue to consider it. Maybe it is possible btw to question "Creation ex nihilo"? I suggest that freedom is prior to being.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 07:48:21 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #114 on: June 11, 2017, 07:49:47 PM »
I have written a poem that ends like this:
"And in this hideous despair,
Where was a man, nay a God
Who cared?"

In celebration, I've rented you your own personal orchestra.

And earlier in the poem we have this :
"All spoke of the tortures of hell
But no one mentioned the boredom of heaven"

IF Augustine and Calvin were right: Sure! Sand me to hell! I rather be there than worshipping their Tyrant in heaven. But send me there ALONE. NO one else should suffer because of the fate of being born.

How very popular you would have been among wealthy college-boys of the 1890s.

Has it ever occurred to you that you curse the wonderful life you revel in, with all this? You, wrapped in sunshine, filled with good things, held up by strong bones and tendons, surrounded by variety and beauty, with a mind to enjoy it all.
Before God turns up and curses me for enjoying my life? No not even that! Cursing me because I was Born and created. Cursing me just because he created me only for the purpose of cursing and torturing me after death? How can I then possibly enjoy life, with the terrors not only of this life but of eternal hell after this life as well constantly behind my back, constantly torturing my mind? Looking around me seeing all these happy People, not being aware of that they are just here in order to be infinitely tortured? Would you enjoy such a life?

Oh yes he has cursed you so. Cursed you with an extra helping of dinner today, if I don't miss my guess.
Mock me all you want. Good night.

"He giveth his beloved sleep" (Psalmist).
Well Then Maybe suicide is the Only solution if I am forced to thank him because I must sleep in order to not fall asleep at work.

He also gives us work. Cf. "And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work." And many more.

Quote
I will continue to consider it. Maybe it is possible btw to question "Creation ex nihilo"? I suggest that freedom is prior to being.

Wow what a breakthrough! You chose your being freely, according to you. Now you really can relax and get that rest.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #115 on: June 11, 2017, 07:51:10 PM »
I just Believe that Paul was not infallible, that he in fact made some mistakes about God even in the letters.

Don't blaspheme against the Holy Spirit now, I hear that comes with an Extra Value™ penalty.
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

Offline beebert

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #116 on: June 11, 2017, 07:55:32 PM »
I just Believe that Paul was not infallible, that he in fact made some mistakes about God even in the letters.

Don't blaspheme against the Holy Spirit now, I hear that comes with an Extra Value™ penalty.
What? Is it blasphemy against the holy spirit to say that Paul might have not been infallible? Oh my. I am certainly doomed. Now I questioned Romans 9 and will never be forgiven. Ever. What a loving and forgiving father. What is left for me now but suicide? Please tell me. Why make God's holy planet dirty with my unforgivable feet?
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 07:58:41 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #117 on: June 11, 2017, 08:00:38 PM »
I have written a poem that ends like this:
"And in this hideous despair,
Where was a man, nay a God
Who cared?"

In celebration, I've rented you your own personal orchestra.

And earlier in the poem we have this :
"All spoke of the tortures of hell
But no one mentioned the boredom of heaven"

IF Augustine and Calvin were right: Sure! Sand me to hell! I rather be there than worshipping their Tyrant in heaven. But send me there ALONE. NO one else should suffer because of the fate of being born.

How very popular you would have been among wealthy college-boys of the 1890s.

Has it ever occurred to you that you curse the wonderful life you revel in, with all this? You, wrapped in sunshine, filled with good things, held up by strong bones and tendons, surrounded by variety and beauty, with a mind to enjoy it all.
Before God turns up and curses me for enjoying my life? No not even that! Cursing me because I was Born and created. Cursing me just because he created me only for the purpose of cursing and torturing me after death? How can I then possibly enjoy life, with the terrors not only of this life but of eternal hell after this life as well constantly behind my back, constantly torturing my mind? Looking around me seeing all these happy People, not being aware of that they are just here in order to be infinitely tortured? Would you enjoy such a life?

Oh yes he has cursed you so. Cursed you with an extra helping of dinner today, if I don't miss my guess.
Mock me all you want. Good night.

"He giveth his beloved sleep" (Psalmist).
Well Then Maybe suicide is the Only solution if I am forced to thank him because I must sleep in order to not fall asleep at work.

He also gives us work. Cf. "And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work." And many more.

Quote
I will continue to consider it. Maybe it is possible btw to question "Creation ex nihilo"? I suggest that freedom is prior to being.

Wow what a breakthrough! You chose your being freely, according to you. Now you really can relax and get that rest.
No. Freedom is prior to being. God didnt create freedom. That is what I mean. I know God gave me Everything. But are you missing the content?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #118 on: June 11, 2017, 08:04:06 PM »
I just Believe that Paul was not infallible, that he in fact made some mistakes about God even in the letters.

Don't blaspheme against the Holy Spirit now, I hear that comes with an Extra Value™ penalty.
What? Is it blasphemy against the holy spirit to say that Paul might have not been infallible? Oh my. I am certainly doomed. Now I questioned Romans 9 and will never be forgiven. Ever. What a loving and forgiving father. What is left for me now but suicide? Please tell me. Why make God's holy planet dirty with my unforgivable feet?

Or how about do the usual misotheist thing and curse God through mouthfuls of excellent breakfast till you get old enough to lose your teeth?

But, yes, he is a "loving and forgiving father." He loves and forgives you. Most likely, you will continue to have many years in which to choose to accept and enjoy that, along with all the outer gifts from him you enjoy every day.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #119 on: June 11, 2017, 08:04:12 PM »
I just Believe that Paul was not infallible, that he in fact made some mistakes about God even in the letters.

Don't blaspheme against the Holy Spirit now, I hear that comes with an Extra Value™ penalty.
What? Is it blasphemy against the holy spirit to say that Paul might have not been infallible? Oh my. I am certainly doomed. Now I questioned Romans 9 and will never be forgiven. Ever. What a loving and forgiving father. What is left for me now but suicide? Please tell me. Why make God's holy planet dirty with my unforgivable feet?

To say that St Paul was not infallible is not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, it's common sense.  To say that St Paul made mistakes about God in the letters we have in the NT, on the other hand, approaches the line if not crossing it and running around like a madman who scored the winning goal.   

If you don't want to be a Christian, don't.  But you should still see a physician. 
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #120 on: June 11, 2017, 08:05:27 PM »
What?...

Weren't you supposed to be sleeping over an hour ago?  ???   

This thread cannot possibly be a good idea before tucking yourself in bed.  :)
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 08:14:03 PM by Sharbel »
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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #121 on: June 11, 2017, 08:11:12 PM »
I just Believe that Paul was not infallible, that he in fact made some mistakes about God even in the letters.

Don't blaspheme against the Holy Spirit now, I hear that comes with an Extra Value™ penalty.
What? Is it blasphemy against the holy spirit to say that Paul might have not been infallible? Oh my. I am certainly doomed. Now I questioned Romans 9 and will never be forgiven. Ever. What a loving and forgiving father. What is left for me now but suicide? Please tell me. Why make God's holy planet dirty with my unforgivable feet?

To say that St Paul was not infallible is not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, it's common sense.  To say that St Paul made mistakes about God in the letters we have in the NT, on the other hand, approaches the line if not crossing it and running around like a madman who scored the winning goal.   

If you don't want to be a Christian, don't.  But you should still see a physician.
So it is unforgivable to suggest that Paul perhaps made a mistake? Why? Doesn"t even Paul himself btw har the Word "perhaps" in Romans 9 before speaking about How God wants to show his anger in the vessels of wrath, as if he is saying that he just speculates? How about Augustine? If Augustine was right, is it not an unforgivable sin to suggest he wasn't? If a Christian isn't orthodox but orthodoxy has infallible theology, is it unforgivable then to not be in the orthodox church? Then aren't all protestants and catholics going to hell?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #122 on: June 11, 2017, 08:28:05 PM »
Everyone! For now:









It's just not worth. Give it time.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 08:34:55 PM by Rohzek »
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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #123 on: June 11, 2017, 08:59:10 PM »
We love you, Beebert. Sleep well.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #124 on: June 11, 2017, 10:03:04 PM »
Which God have I insulted? I highly doubt that Most Christians Believe in the true God. I think Most people Believe in a God of their own imagination, which they then use to terrorise others. That is the God I have experienced and despise. To rebell against a false Tyrant God must be a righteous thing. I admire Nietzsche for ranting against protestant and catholic psychological terrorists.
I would disagree with you here. I think that most Christians believe in, and have experienced, the true God, but the accuracy of their understanding of him varies considerably. The question then is how can we grow in a correct understanding, while continuing to experience Him in truth. And the answer to that is in the Church - both through her teaching, and through meeting Christ in the Sacrament. These are precious gifts that the Lord has given us. Far better to focus your energy here, than on reading things that, at least for now, will only add to your distress.
You know... Augustine claimed that most people take the sacraments in vain: it doesnt help them. Either they are "elected" or "damned" without any choice of their own. How the Church has accepted this man and Justinian (!) as Saints but not Origen (!!!) is beyond me. Did the crusaders and the Ones behind the inquisition believe in the true God? Or did they Perhaps mistake the devil as being God?

That's your interpretation. A more useful understanding of election doesn't divorce it from free will. As eternity is to time, so predestination is to freedom of the will -- complements that appear opposed under mortal scrutiny -- paradoxes, as are all the largest truths.
And what is the paradox? Man creates a paradox where there is none.  When the orthodox church officially opposed calvinism they said that there is indeed predestination, but that this predestination is based om foreknowledge! Foreknowledge of the perdition of one person because of that person's misused freedom predestined him to hell before the foundation of the world! And yet, God created the world! He, eternal love, willed the world to come in to existence despite the misused freedom and eternal suffering of many! What God foreknows, he also wills. There is no paradox. All traditional thought inevitably leads to the same conclusion. Though some denies it. And others call it freedom of the Will. Unless you say that God has no power over freedom and that freedom is uncreated?

The intersection of God and Man is infinitely problematic to understand. Eternity and time, infinity and number, first-cause and will are only a few examples. Thus the absolute intellectual and practical necessity for Christ, the Godman. There is no "word" to explain the problems, only the Word; to put it in plainer English: there is no answer, only the Answer. Modern Judaism transfers the problem, Islam forbids it. Christianity embodies it. The intellectual answer to the unanswerable problems is to lift the gaze to contemplate Christ -- "And I, if I be lifted up, shall draw all men after me." The practical answer is to join to Christ -- "I am the vine; ye are the branches." "Grow up into him in all things, which is the head" -- we are the body. To join to Christ as his body is not a glamorous work: "For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, 'Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body'; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, 'Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body'; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, 'I have no need of thee': nor again the head to the feet, 'I have no need of you.' Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: and those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable -- upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked." That is, some are fore-ordained for one life, some for another, and of these lives some are indeed full of difficulty or ugliness or humiliation. But it is a work of salvation: "And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it." By this we ultimately ourselves become the answer to the great problem of God and Man, because by it we don eternity, infinity, and godhood.

If we properly view the nature of Man, we will not know how we could be saved. If we properly view the nature of God, we will not know how we could be lost. Another take on the infinite problem and paradox.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 10:09:05 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #125 on: June 11, 2017, 10:47:06 PM »
I just Believe that Paul was not infallible, that he in fact made some mistakes about God even in the letters.

Don't blaspheme against the Holy Spirit now, I hear that comes with an Extra Value™ penalty.
What? Is it blasphemy against the holy spirit to say that Paul might have not been infallible? Oh my. I am certainly doomed. Now I questioned Romans 9 and will never be forgiven. Ever. What a loving and forgiving father. What is left for me now but suicide? Please tell me. Why make God's holy planet dirty with my unforgivable feet?

To say that St Paul was not infallible is not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, it's common sense.  To say that St Paul made mistakes about God in the letters we have in the NT, on the other hand, approaches the line if not crossing it and running around like a madman who scored the winning goal.   

If you don't want to be a Christian, don't.  But you should still see a physician.
So it is unforgivable to suggest that Paul perhaps made a mistake? Why? Doesn"t even Paul himself btw har the Word "perhaps" in Romans 9 before speaking about How God wants to show his anger in the vessels of wrath, as if he is saying that he just speculates? How about Augustine? If Augustine was right, is it not an unforgivable sin to suggest he wasn't? If a Christian isn't orthodox but orthodoxy has infallible theology, is it unforgivable then to not be in the orthodox church? Then aren't all protestants and catholics going to hell?

+1000

Beebert, take a break.  I think there has been quite a great deal of patience with you.  It's one thing to criticize the writings of a father, but I don't accept that you call that father a heretic, especially one who is canonized a saint.

However you cross a line when canonized Scripture also becomes questioned and heretical in your terms, and that in itself is something that shows you really have yet to grasp good Christian teaching with a healthy mind.  You still seem to take your intellect into a level of hyper-emotional reaction that presents you in an irrational light.

So...

Take a break brother and tread carefully.  God bless.
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If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline beebert

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #126 on: June 12, 2017, 12:45:37 AM »
Which God have I insulted? I highly doubt that Most Christians Believe in the true God. I think Most people Believe in a God of their own imagination, which they then use to terrorise others. That is the God I have experienced and despise. To rebell against a false Tyrant God must be a righteous thing. I admire Nietzsche for ranting against protestant and catholic psychological terrorists.
I would disagree with you here. I think that most Christians believe in, and have experienced, the true God, but the accuracy of their understanding of him varies considerably. The question then is how can we grow in a correct understanding, while continuing to experience Him in truth. And the answer to that is in the Church - both through her teaching, and through meeting Christ in the Sacrament. These are precious gifts that the Lord has given us. Far better to focus your energy here, than on reading things that, at least for now, will only add to your distress.
You know... Augustine claimed that most people take the sacraments in vain: it doesnt help them. Either they are "elected" or "damned" without any choice of their own. How the Church has accepted this man and Justinian (!) as Saints but not Origen (!!!) is beyond me. Did the crusaders and the Ones behind the inquisition believe in the true God? Or did they Perhaps mistake the devil as being God?

That's your interpretation. A more useful understanding of election doesn't divorce it from free will. As eternity is to time, so predestination is to freedom of the will -- complements that appear opposed under mortal scrutiny -- paradoxes, as are all the largest truths.
And what is the paradox? Man creates a paradox where there is none.  When the orthodox church officially opposed calvinism they said that there is indeed predestination, but that this predestination is based om foreknowledge! Foreknowledge of the perdition of one person because of that person's misused freedom predestined him to hell before the foundation of the world! And yet, God created the world! He, eternal love, willed the world to come in to existence despite the misused freedom and eternal suffering of many! What God foreknows, he also wills. There is no paradox. All traditional thought inevitably leads to the same conclusion. Though some denies it. And others call it freedom of the Will. Unless you say that God has no power over freedom and that freedom is uncreated?

The intersection of God and Man is infinitely problematic to understand. Eternity and time, infinity and number, first-cause and will are only a few examples. Thus the absolute intellectual and practical necessity for Christ, the Godman. There is no "word" to explain the problems, only the Word; to put it in plainer English: there is no answer, only the Answer. Modern Judaism transfers the problem, Islam forbids it. Christianity embodies it. The intellectual answer to the unanswerable problems is to lift the gaze to contemplate Christ -- "And I, if I be lifted up, shall draw all men after me." The practical answer is to join to Christ -- "I am the vine; ye are the branches." "Grow up into him in all things, which is the head" -- we are the body. To join to Christ as his body is not a glamorous work: "For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, 'Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body'; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, 'Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body'; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, 'I have no need of thee': nor again the head to the feet, 'I have no need of you.' Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: and those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable -- upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked." That is, some are fore-ordained for one life, some for another, and of these lives some are indeed full of difficulty or ugliness or humiliation. But it is a work of salvation: "And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it." By this we ultimately ourselves become the answer to the great problem of God and Man, because by it we don eternity, infinity, and godhood.

If we properly view the nature of Man, we will not know how we could be saved. If we properly view the nature of God, we will not know how we could be lost. Another take on the infinite problem and paradox.
So basically what is said, if I understand it correctly, is that from God's Point of view, where time does not exist, those who misuses their freedom and perish have done so from etenity, that is, there has been no point in where I actually sinned against God, I have sinned against him and been headed towards hell from eternity? I have, that is, eternally sinned against God, there is no point in God's view, where I actually haven't sinned against him? The fact that I am a sinner headed towards destruction, is as eternally true and a part of God's truth and eternity as eternity itself, if you know what I mean? My personal problem isnt that some People live harder Lives than others. Though innocent suffering is hard to understand. And I don't want to reconcile with John Piper's idea that "There are no innocent children ".
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 12:59:47 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #127 on: June 12, 2017, 01:06:14 AM »
I just Believe that Paul was not infallible, that he in fact made some mistakes about God even in the letters.

Don't blaspheme against the Holy Spirit now, I hear that comes with an Extra Value™ penalty.
What? Is it blasphemy against the holy spirit to say that Paul might have not been infallible? Oh my. I am certainly doomed. Now I questioned Romans 9 and will never be forgiven. Ever. What a loving and forgiving father. What is left for me now but suicide? Please tell me. Why make God's holy planet dirty with my unforgivable feet?

To say that St Paul was not infallible is not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, it's common sense.  To say that St Paul made mistakes about God in the letters we have in the NT, on the other hand, approaches the line if not crossing it and running around like a madman who scored the winning goal.   

If you don't want to be a Christian, don't.  But you should still see a physician.
So it is unforgivable to suggest that Paul perhaps made a mistake? Why? Doesn"t even Paul himself btw har the Word "perhaps" in Romans 9 before speaking about How God wants to show his anger in the vessels of wrath, as if he is saying that he just speculates? How about Augustine? If Augustine was right, is it not an unforgivable sin to suggest he wasn't? If a Christian isn't orthodox but orthodoxy has infallible theology, is it unforgivable then to not be in the orthodox church? Then aren't all protestants and catholics going to hell?

+1000

Beebert, take a break.  I think there has been quite a great deal of patience with you.  It's one thing to criticize the writings of a father, but I don't accept that you call that father a heretic, especially one who is canonized a saint.

However you cross a line when canonized Scripture also becomes questioned and heretical in your terms, and that in itself is something that shows you really have yet to grasp good Christian teaching with a healthy mind.  You still seem to take your intellect into a level of hyper-emotional reaction that presents you in an irrational light.

So...

Take a break brother and tread carefully.  God bless.
Okay I apologize for my ranting and if I might have offended someone. Really I apologize. I probably need more mental help. But I wouldnt call Paul a heretic. Though as honestly as I can, With my hand to my chest, I can not believe that Paul meant anything else than what Augustine and Calvin  claimed that he meant. And if that is what Paul meant; I have a problem accepting it. I know orthodoxy says Paul means something else, I would love it if that is true. But I just can't believe it. And all traditional interpretations of the words "all-powerful", and "all-knowing" leads to this conclusion. They all lead to the same conclusion. It seems to me that Calvin's double predestination is the inevitable consequence of traditional thought...

I never said as far as I recall that Augustine was a heretic either. But his ideas (which are grounded in scripture) give rise to some serious problems. And I am not sure I can with a Good conscience agree with the church and say that Justinian is and was a saint and Origen wasn't...
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 01:10:26 AM by beebert »
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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #128 on: June 12, 2017, 02:19:47 AM »
No comment.
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For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
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Offline beebert

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #129 on: June 12, 2017, 10:29:48 AM »
Let me just ask and see if I have understood Augustine correctly:

Based on my understanding of Auguestine’s dogma of Predestination, it is connected with another dogma, namely, that the mass of humanity is corrupt and doomed to eternal damnation, that very few will be found righteous and attain salvation, and that only in consequence of the gift of grace, and because they are predestined to be saved; whilst the remainder will be overwhelmed by the perdition they have deserved, eternal torment in hell. Taken in its ordinary meaning, the dogma is revolting, for it comes to this: it condemns a man, who may be, perhaps, scarcely twenty years of age, to expiate his errors, or even his unbelief, in everlasting torment; nay, more, it makes this almost universal damnation the natural effect of original sin, and therefore the necessary consequence of the Fall. This is a result which must have been foreseen by him who made mankind, and who, in the first place, made them not better than they are, and secondly, indirectly set a trap for them into which he must have known they would fall; for he made the whole world, and nothing is hidden from him. And he is all-powerful. According to this doctrine, then, God created out of nothing a weak race prone to sin, in order to give them over to endless torment. And, as a last characteristic, we are told that this God, who prescribes forbearance and forgiveness of every fault, exercises none himself, but does the exact opposite; for a punishment which comes at the end of all things, when the world is over and done with, cannot have for its object either to improve or deter, and is therefore pure vengeance. So that, on this view, the whole race is actually destined to eternal torture and damnation, and created expressly for this end, the only exception being those few persons who are rescued by election of grace, from what motive one does not know.
Putting these aside, it looks as if the Blessed Lord had created the world for the benefit of the devil! If this is what Augustine believed, it seems like it would have been so much better not to have made the world at all. Is there anything herr that I have missunderstood, or is this the western Christian view that follows the augustian line of thought? I would Love to read what you think about this and if I have understood it wrongly. If I have, please Tell me in what way, and also in what way orthodoxy is different.

Take, for example, the case as Augustine states it generally in the The City of God, Book 12 chapter 21. It comes to this: God creates a being out of nothing, forbids him some things, and enjoins others upon him; and because these commands are not obeyed, he tortures him to all eternity with every conceivable anguish; and for this purpose, binds soul and body inseparably together, so that, instead, of the torment destroying this being by splitting him up into his elements, and so setting him free, he may live to eternal pain. This poor creature, formed out of nothing! At least, he has a claim on his original nothing: he should be assured, as a matter of right, of this last retreat, which, in any case, cannot be a very evil one: it is what he has inherited. I, at any rate, cannot help sympathizing with him. If you add to this Augustine’s remaining doctrines, that all this does not depend on the man’s own sins and omissions, but was already predestined to happen, one really is at a loss what to think...
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 10:36:58 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #130 on: June 12, 2017, 11:22:13 AM »
I just Believe that Paul was not infallible, that he in fact made some mistakes about God even in the letters.

Don't blaspheme against the Holy Spirit now, I hear that comes with an Extra Value™ penalty.
What? Is it blasphemy against the holy spirit to say that Paul might have not been infallible? Oh my. I am certainly doomed. Now I questioned Romans 9 and will never be forgiven. Ever. What a loving and forgiving father. What is left for me now but suicide? Please tell me. Why make God's holy planet dirty with my unforgivable feet?

To say that St Paul was not infallible is not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, it's common sense.  To say that St Paul made mistakes about God in the letters we have in the NT, on the other hand, approaches the line if not crossing it and running around like a madman who scored the winning goal.   

If you don't want to be a Christian, don't.  But you should still see a physician.
So it is unforgivable to suggest that Paul perhaps made a mistake? Why? Doesn"t even Paul himself btw har the Word "perhaps" in Romans 9 before speaking about How God wants to show his anger in the vessels of wrath, as if he is saying that he just speculates? How about Augustine? If Augustine was right, is it not an unforgivable sin to suggest he wasn't? If a Christian isn't orthodox but orthodoxy has infallible theology, is it unforgivable then to not be in the orthodox church? Then aren't all protestants and catholics going to hell?

+1000

Beebert, take a break.  I think there has been quite a great deal of patience with you.  It's one thing to criticize the writings of a father, but I don't accept that you call that father a heretic, especially one who is canonized a saint.

However you cross a line when canonized Scripture also becomes questioned and heretical in your terms, and that in itself is something that shows you really have yet to grasp good Christian teaching with a healthy mind.  You still seem to take your intellect into a level of hyper-emotional reaction that presents you in an irrational light.

So...

Take a break brother and tread carefully.  God bless.
Okay I apologize for my ranting and if I might have offended someone. Really I apologize. I probably need more mental help. But I wouldnt call Paul a heretic. Though as honestly as I can, With my hand to my chest, I can not believe that Paul meant anything else than what Augustine and Calvin  claimed that he meant. And if that is what Paul meant; I have a problem accepting it. I know orthodoxy says Paul means something else, I would love it if that is true. But I just can't believe it. And all traditional interpretations of the words "all-powerful", and "all-knowing" leads to this conclusion. They all lead to the same conclusion. It seems to me that Calvin's double predestination is the inevitable consequence of traditional thought...

I never said as far as I recall that Augustine was a heretic either. But his ideas (which are grounded in scripture) give rise to some serious problems. And I am not sure I can with a Good conscience agree with the church and say that Justinian is and was a saint and Origen wasn't...

No matter how much you denounce Calvinism from time to time, it's the one non-negotiable that consistently remains so in your thought.  Even when Scripture is up for grabs, Calvin is sacrosanct. 
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

Offline beebert

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #131 on: June 12, 2017, 11:39:18 AM »
I just Believe that Paul was not infallible, that he in fact made some mistakes about God even in the letters.

Don't blaspheme against the Holy Spirit now, I hear that comes with an Extra Value™ penalty.
What? Is it blasphemy against the holy spirit to say that Paul might have not been infallible? Oh my. I am certainly doomed. Now I questioned Romans 9 and will never be forgiven. Ever. What a loving and forgiving father. What is left for me now but suicide? Please tell me. Why make God's holy planet dirty with my unforgivable feet?

To say that St Paul was not infallible is not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, it's common sense.  To say that St Paul made mistakes about God in the letters we have in the NT, on the other hand, approaches the line if not crossing it and running around like a madman who scored the winning goal.   

If you don't want to be a Christian, don't.  But you should still see a physician.
So it is unforgivable to suggest that Paul perhaps made a mistake? Why? Doesn"t even Paul himself btw har the Word "perhaps" in Romans 9 before speaking about How God wants to show his anger in the vessels of wrath, as if he is saying that he just speculates? How about Augustine? If Augustine was right, is it not an unforgivable sin to suggest he wasn't? If a Christian isn't orthodox but orthodoxy has infallible theology, is it unforgivable then to not be in the orthodox church? Then aren't all protestants and catholics going to hell?

+1000

Beebert, take a break.  I think there has been quite a great deal of patience with you.  It's one thing to criticize the writings of a father, but I don't accept that you call that father a heretic, especially one who is canonized a saint.

However you cross a line when canonized Scripture also becomes questioned and heretical in your terms, and that in itself is something that shows you really have yet to grasp good Christian teaching with a healthy mind.  You still seem to take your intellect into a level of hyper-emotional reaction that presents you in an irrational light.

So...

Take a break brother and tread carefully.  God bless.
Okay I apologize for my ranting and if I might have offended someone. Really I apologize. I probably need more mental help. But I wouldnt call Paul a heretic. Though as honestly as I can, With my hand to my chest, I can not believe that Paul meant anything else than what Augustine and Calvin  claimed that he meant. And if that is what Paul meant; I have a problem accepting it. I know orthodoxy says Paul means something else, I would love it if that is true. But I just can't believe it. And all traditional interpretations of the words "all-powerful", and "all-knowing" leads to this conclusion. They all lead to the same conclusion. It seems to me that Calvin's double predestination is the inevitable consequence of traditional thought...

I never said as far as I recall that Augustine was a heretic either. But his ideas (which are grounded in scripture) give rise to some serious problems. And I am not sure I can with a Good conscience agree with the church and say that Justinian is and was a saint and Origen wasn't...

No matter how much you denounce Calvinism from time to time, it's the one non-negotiable that consistently remains so in your thought.  Even when Scripture is up for grabs, Calvin is sacrosanct.
In the post above the one you just made, I have a clear view of the Augustinian theology and Its consequences. I would Love it if you could provide me an orthodox answer to those problems, where orthodoxy differ. Because I haven't quite understood it...
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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #132 on: June 12, 2017, 11:55:35 AM »
In the post above the one you just made, I have a clear view of the Augustinian theology and Its consequences. I would Love it if you could provide me an orthodox answer to those problems, where orthodoxy differ. Because I haven't quite understood it...

Evidently.  For starters, you're misusing the word "dogma". 

Look, none of this is going to help you.  Even if I offer a line by line response to your post, you're in no condition to hear it. 

You would do much better if you would read the Gospel of John from beginning to end, and then do it again, and continue to repeat this reading of the entire Gospel for a year.  Don't read anything else for the whole year.  Just John. 
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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #133 on: June 12, 2017, 12:01:57 PM »
I don't think St. Augustine has a poor view of God, but rather a poor view of humanity.
Good remark.

Are they not inseparable?


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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #134 on: June 12, 2017, 12:25:30 PM »
In the post above the one you just made, I have a clear view of the Augustinian theology and Its consequences. I would Love it if you could provide me an orthodox answer to those problems, where orthodoxy differ. Because I haven't quite understood it...

Evidently.  For starters, you're misusing the word "dogma". 

Look, none of this is going to help you.  Even if I offer a line by line response to your post, you're in no condition to hear it. 

You would do much better if you would read the Gospel of John from beginning to end, and then do it again, and continue to repeat this reading of the entire Gospel for a year.  Don't read anything else for the whole year.  Just John.
Nothing Else from the whole bible?
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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #135 on: June 12, 2017, 12:32:19 PM »
In the post above the one you just made, I have a clear view of the Augustinian theology and Its consequences. I would Love it if you could provide me an orthodox answer to those problems, where orthodoxy differ. Because I haven't quite understood it...

Evidently.  For starters, you're misusing the word "dogma". 

Look, none of this is going to help you.  Even if I offer a line by line response to your post, you're in no condition to hear it. 

You would do much better if you would read the Gospel of John from beginning to end, and then do it again, and continue to repeat this reading of the entire Gospel for a year.  Don't read anything else for the whole year.  Just John.
Nothing Else from the whole bible?

Nothing else.  It'll be there for you next year. 
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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #136 on: June 12, 2017, 01:45:12 PM »
This reminds of a story of a former Islamist terrorist who converted into the Coptic Orthodox Church formerly named "Sheikh Saber".  In his autobiographical story to some Coptic monks he mentioned how we spent weeks rereading John 1:1 alone just so that he can understand the rest of the chapter!
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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #137 on: June 12, 2017, 02:56:54 PM »
In the post above the one you just made, I have a clear view of the Augustinian theology and Its consequences. I would Love it if you could provide me an orthodox answer to those problems, where orthodoxy differ. Because I haven't quite understood it...

Evidently.  For starters, you're misusing the word "dogma". 

Look, none of this is going to help you.  Even if I offer a line by line response to your post, you're in no condition to hear it. 

You would do much better if you would read the Gospel of John from beginning to end, and then do it again, and continue to repeat this reading of the entire Gospel for a year.  Don't read anything else for the whole year.  Just John.
Nothing Else from the whole bible?

Nothing else.  It'll be there for you next year.
I will seriously consider your advice! I think I will follow it. Though I must say, I read today the letter of Clement to the corinthians from the Apostlic Fathers. Now that is a wonderful letter. That is what feels to me to be a true christian and authentic christianity. It is the greatest Christian letter I think I have ever read.
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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #138 on: June 12, 2017, 04:56:13 PM »
In the post above the one you just made, I have a clear view of the Augustinian theology and Its consequences. I would Love it if you could provide me an orthodox answer to those problems, where orthodoxy differ. Because I haven't quite understood it...

Evidently.  For starters, you're misusing the word "dogma". 

Look, none of this is going to help you.  Even if I offer a line by line response to your post, you're in no condition to hear it. 

You would do much better if you would read the Gospel of John from beginning to end, and then do it again, and continue to repeat this reading of the entire Gospel for a year.  Don't read anything else for the whole year.  Just John.
Nothing Else from the whole bible?

Nothing else.  It'll be there for you next year.
I will seriously consider your advice! I think I will follow it. Though I must say, I read today the letter of Clement to the corinthians from the Apostlic Fathers. Now that is a wonderful letter. That is what feels to me to be a true christian and authentic christianity. It is the greatest Christian letter I think I have ever read.

Then I think the letters of St. Peter would blow your mind.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #139 on: June 12, 2017, 06:14:53 PM »
Saint Augustine said one of my favourite phrases "love is the beauty of the soul". I venerate him, I admire the fact that he wrote so many works to defend the christian faith although our Church don't accept some of his teachings. This doesn't make him less saint. He is a Father of the Church. Also, I think that we must remember that saint Augustine was not considered himself infallible and he asked for corrections of others. Heretic is man who continues his errors EVEN IF SOMEONE SHOWS HIM THE TRUTH. And saint Augustine was not selfish. Noone is infallible except God. Holy Spirit in all of these centuries guides us in God's Truth, accepting some teachings and rejecting other.

As for the letter of saint Paul to Romans, me must all know what "justice" means in hebrew (tzedakah) and read the chapter 59 in Isaiah, from which the holy apostle quotes. Then it will be so easy to avoid the errors of the heretics. Saint Augustine also said that for difficult passages we must read them in their original languange. This letter is one of the most important letters of saint Paul and the letter that many people fell in heresies due to wrong understanding. My personal experience showed me that a christian must read the WHOLE Old Testament CAREFULLY and then read the New Testament.
Read this article about Romans 9
http://www.joeledmundanderson.com/?p=1149&
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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #140 on: June 13, 2017, 06:08:19 AM »
In the post above the one you just made, I have a clear view of the Augustinian theology and Its consequences. I would Love it if you could provide me an orthodox answer to those problems, where orthodoxy differ. Because I haven't quite understood it...

Evidently.  For starters, you're misusing the word "dogma". 

Look, none of this is going to help you.  Even if I offer a line by line response to your post, you're in no condition to hear it. 

You would do much better if you would read the Gospel of John from beginning to end, and then do it again, and continue to repeat this reading of the entire Gospel for a year.  Don't read anything else for the whole year.  Just John.
Nothing Else from the whole bible?

Nothing else.  It'll be there for you next year.
I will seriously consider your advice! I think I will follow it. Though I must say, I read today the letter of Clement to the corinthians from the Apostlic Fathers. Now that is a wonderful letter. That is what feels to me to be a true christian and authentic christianity. It is the greatest Christian letter I think I have ever read.

Then I think the letters of St. Peter would blow your mind.
They are good but not as loving. I like John's 1st letter.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #141 on: June 13, 2017, 06:14:05 AM »
Saint Augustine said one of my favourite phrases "love is the beauty of the soul". I venerate him, I admire the fact that he wrote so many works to defend the christian faith although our Church don't accept some of his teachings. This doesn't make him less saint. He is a Father of the Church. Also, I think that we must remember that saint Augustine was not considered himself infallible and he asked for corrections of others. Heretic is man who continues his errors EVEN IF SOMEONE SHOWS HIM THE TRUTH. And saint Augustine was not selfish. Noone is infallible except God. Holy Spirit in all of these centuries guides us in God's Truth, accepting some teachings and rejecting other.

As for the letter of saint Paul to Romans, me must all know what "justice" means in hebrew (tzedakah) and read the chapter 59 in Isaiah, from which the holy apostle quotes. Then it will be so easy to avoid the errors of the heretics. Saint Augustine also said that for difficult passages we must read them in their original languange. This letter is one of the most important letters of saint Paul and the letter that many people fell in heresies due to wrong understanding. My personal experience showed me that a christian must read the WHOLE Old Testament CAREFULLY and then read the New Testament.
Read this article about Romans 9
http://www.joeledmundanderson.com/?p=1149&
St. Augustine said many good and admirable things like "Truth without love is cruelty". But the older he got the more pessimistic he seems to have got.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #142 on: June 13, 2017, 10:28:30 AM »
I didn't read all of his works so I can't criticize him. I accept this phrase of saint John of Damascus about the Fathers "...and the God-inspired Fathers handed down a true message, whether they taught this doctrine or that..." Our Fathers passed down to us every possible interpretation. The Spirit of God accepted some of them as true for His Church. We can't blame a man who tried to teach about God even if he is wrong. It wasn't his will to teach something wrong.
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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #143 on: June 13, 2017, 11:02:21 AM »
Anyway, in traditional theology, in the classical theist view, God foresaw the fatal consequences of creating man, whether those fatal consequences depends on man's fatal freedom or God's determinate Will but God did nothing to prevent these consequences. He  foresaw the perdition of many, but went along the line anyway. And I claim with confidence that this traditional view is a major reason to why many morally good people reject God and become atheists. It is the profound moral source of atheism.
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Offline biro

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #144 on: June 13, 2017, 11:49:16 AM »
You neglect the fact that people can choose whether or not to sin.

People receive the consequences of their actions.

They can also choose to repent.

God is not the author of sin.

You have no business blaming God.




 
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #145 on: June 13, 2017, 11:57:47 AM »
St. Augustine is upfront that his writings are his own attempts to understand, which he admits are faulty and in part at least perhaps in error, unlike St. Jerome,  who writes as if his word is the singular last dogmatic stand.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #146 on: June 13, 2017, 11:59:38 AM »
Anyway, in traditional theology, in the classical theist view, God foresaw the fatal consequences of creating man, whether those fatal consequences depends on man's fatal freedom or God's determinate Will but God did nothing to prevent these consequences. He  foresaw the perdition of many, but went along the line anyway. And I claim with confidence that this traditional view is a major reason to why many morally good people reject God and become atheists. It is the profound moral source of atheism.

You keep asserting this, every few posts, as tho that's going eventually to make it true.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #147 on: June 13, 2017, 12:03:32 PM »
You neglect the fact that people can choose whether or not to sin.

People receive the consequences of their actions.

They can also choose to repent.

God is not the author of sin.

You have no business blaming God.
I don't blame God. I question the traditional view and its logical consequences. We dont know all the mysteries that is behind the truth. At least least have the Courage to think and ask questions. Why not answering with your view of the problem I presented?
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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #148 on: June 13, 2017, 12:05:37 PM »
Anyway, in traditional theology, in the classical theist view, God foresaw the fatal consequences of creating man, whether those fatal consequences depends on man's fatal freedom or God's determinate Will but God did nothing to prevent these consequences. He  foresaw the perdition of many, but went along the line anyway. And I claim with confidence that this traditional view is a major reason to why many morally good people reject God and become atheists. It is the profound moral source of atheism.

You keep asserting this, every few posts, as tho that's going eventually to make it true.
As if what is true? This is the traditional view right? En these are the objections one often hear from morally serious unbelievers who try to understand.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #149 on: June 13, 2017, 12:09:28 PM »
Anyway, in traditional theology, in the classical theist view, God foresaw the fatal consequences of creating man, whether those fatal consequences depends on man's fatal freedom or God's determinate Will but God did nothing to prevent these consequences. He  foresaw the perdition of many, but went along the line anyway. And I claim with confidence that this traditional view is a major reason to why many morally good people reject God and become atheists. It is the profound moral source of atheism.

You keep asserting this, every few posts, as tho that's going eventually to make it true.
As if what is true? This is the traditional view right? En these are the objections one often hear from morally serious unbelievers who try to understand.
Can you hear hypothetical constructs?

Profound moral source of atheism. No such thing. And, btw, no, it is not true nor traditional.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #150 on: June 13, 2017, 01:24:20 PM »
Anyway, in traditional theology, in the classical theist view, God foresaw the fatal consequences of creating man, whether those fatal consequences depends on man's fatal freedom or God's determinate Will but God did nothing to prevent these consequences. He  foresaw the perdition of many, but went along the line anyway. And I claim with confidence that this traditional view is a major reason to why many morally good people reject God and become atheists. It is the profound moral source of atheism.

You keep asserting this, every few posts, as tho that's going eventually to make it true.
As if what is true? This is the traditional view right? En these are the objections one often hear from morally serious unbelievers who try to understand.

Nope. It sure isn't. Christian Tradition does very little in the way of accusing God of evil -- shocking, I know. ::) "For he is a good God who alone loves mankind" is the traditional affirmation. Maybe it's a good thing you've finally come to an (ostensibly) non-Skeptical forum to learn about Christianity -- altho it's obviously taking you a while to adjust.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #151 on: June 13, 2017, 02:12:13 PM »
Anyway, in traditional theology, in the classical theist view, God foresaw the fatal consequences of creating man, whether those fatal consequences depends on man's fatal freedom or God's determinate Will but God did nothing to prevent these consequences. He  foresaw the perdition of many, but went along the line anyway. And I claim with confidence that this traditional view is a major reason to why many morally good people reject God and become atheists. It is the profound moral source of atheism.

You keep asserting this, every few posts, as tho that's going eventually to make it true.
As if what is true? This is the traditional view right? En these are the objections one often hear from morally serious unbelievers who try to understand.
Can you hear hypothetical constructs?

Profound moral source of atheism. No such thing. And, btw, no, it is not true nor traditional.
I prefer atheism over fanatical fundamentalism dressed up as faith in God. So in some cases, one should take arguments from atheists who are trying to be honest and who honestly search the truth seriously. I am thinking about Ivan Karamazov for example. To ridicule him and thereby not see his struggle would be a pharisaical crime
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 02:15:35 PM by beebert »
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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #152 on: June 13, 2017, 02:19:18 PM »
Anyway, in traditional theology, in the classical theist view, God foresaw the fatal consequences of creating man, whether those fatal consequences depends on man's fatal freedom or God's determinate Will but God did nothing to prevent these consequences. He  foresaw the perdition of many, but went along the line anyway. And I claim with confidence that this traditional view is a major reason to why many morally good people reject God and become atheists. It is the profound moral source of atheism.

You keep asserting this, every few posts, as tho that's going eventually to make it true.
As if what is true? This is the traditional view right? En these are the objections one often hear from morally serious unbelievers who try to understand.

Nope. It sure isn't. Christian Tradition does very little in the way of accusing God of evil -- shocking, I know. ::) "For he is a good God who alone loves mankind" is the traditional affirmation. Maybe it's a good thing you've finally come to an (ostensibly) non-Skeptical forum to learn about Christianity -- altho it's obviously taking you a while to adjust.
I liked the citation that God alone loves man. Never heard before. Where can I find it and what is the traditional view about God's foreknowledge in relation to freedom and predestination etc? Did God foresee eternal hell before creating the world?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #153 on: June 13, 2017, 02:41:38 PM »
Anyway, in traditional theology, in the classical theist view, God foresaw the fatal consequences of creating man, whether those fatal consequences depends on man's fatal freedom or God's determinate Will but God did nothing to prevent these consequences. He  foresaw the perdition of many, but went along the line anyway. And I claim with confidence that this traditional view is a major reason to why many morally good people reject God and become atheists. It is the profound moral source of atheism.

You keep asserting this, every few posts, as tho that's going eventually to make it true.
As if what is true? This is the traditional view right? En these are the objections one often hear from morally serious unbelievers who try to understand.
Can you hear hypothetical constructs?

Profound moral source of atheism. No such thing. And, btw, no, it is not true nor traditional.
I prefer atheism over fanatical fundamentalism dressed up as faith in God. So in some cases, one should take arguments from atheists who are trying to be honest and who honestly search the truth seriously. I am thinking about Ivan Karamazov for example. To ridicule him and thereby not see his struggle would be a pharisaical crime

Our minds weren't designed to inhabit a world of fiction. Without real people and fruitful acts to apply themselves to, our minds simply spin wheels endlessly and sicken.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #154 on: June 13, 2017, 02:43:14 PM »
Anyway, in traditional theology, in the classical theist view, God foresaw the fatal consequences of creating man, whether those fatal consequences depends on man's fatal freedom or God's determinate Will but God did nothing to prevent these consequences. He  foresaw the perdition of many, but went along the line anyway. And I claim with confidence that this traditional view is a major reason to why many morally good people reject God and become atheists. It is the profound moral source of atheism.

You keep asserting this, every few posts, as tho that's going eventually to make it true.
As if what is true? This is the traditional view right? En these are the objections one often hear from morally serious unbelievers who try to understand.

Nope. It sure isn't. Christian Tradition does very little in the way of accusing God of evil -- shocking, I know. ::) "For he is a good God who alone loves mankind" is the traditional affirmation. Maybe it's a good thing you've finally come to an (ostensibly) non-Skeptical forum to learn about Christianity -- altho it's obviously taking you a while to adjust.
I liked the citation that God alone loves man. Never heard before. Where can I find it and what is the traditional view about God's foreknowledge in relation to freedom and predestination etc? Did God foresee eternal hell before creating the world?

Good gravy. Pardon my shock, but you really need to get to church. That's part of the prayers at almost any service, if not all of them.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #155 on: June 13, 2017, 03:42:13 PM »
Anyway, in traditional theology, in the classical theist view, God foresaw the fatal consequences of creating man, whether those fatal consequences depends on man's fatal freedom or God's determinate Will but God did nothing to prevent these consequences. He  foresaw the perdition of many, but went along the line anyway. And I claim with confidence that this traditional view is a major reason to why many morally good people reject God and become atheists. It is the profound moral source of atheism.

You keep asserting this, every few posts, as tho that's going eventually to make it true.
As if what is true? This is the traditional view right? En these are the objections one often hear from morally serious unbelievers who try to understand.

Nope. It sure isn't. Christian Tradition does very little in the way of accusing God of evil -- shocking, I know. ::) "For he is a good God who alone loves mankind" is the traditional affirmation. Maybe it's a good thing you've finally come to an (ostensibly) non-Skeptical forum to learn about Christianity -- altho it's obviously taking you a while to adjust.
I liked the citation that God alone loves man. Never heard before. Where can I find it and what is the traditional view about God's foreknowledge in relation to freedom and predestination etc? Did God foresee eternal hell before creating the world?

Good gravy. Pardon my shock, but you really need to get to church. That's part of the prayers at almost any service, if not all of them.
I go to Church. Though I prefer not to take the eucharist since I do not deserve it in this condition, it would be to My condemnation. And I doubt God wants it. At least it feels wrong to take it before My heart says that is what God wants. And honestly, I have never heard at the liturgy that God ALONE loves mankind... Now... IF You dont mind, please answer the question about whether God from all eternity foreknew eternal torment in hell or not according to traditional theology...
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 03:43:09 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #156 on: June 13, 2017, 03:44:15 PM »
Anyway, in traditional theology, in the classical theist view, God foresaw the fatal consequences of creating man, whether those fatal consequences depends on man's fatal freedom or God's determinate Will but God did nothing to prevent these consequences. He  foresaw the perdition of many, but went along the line anyway. And I claim with confidence that this traditional view is a major reason to why many morally good people reject God and become atheists. It is the profound moral source of atheism.

You keep asserting this, every few posts, as tho that's going eventually to make it true.
As if what is true? This is the traditional view right? En these are the objections one often hear from morally serious unbelievers who try to understand.

Nope. It sure isn't. Christian Tradition does very little in the way of accusing God of evil -- shocking, I know. ::) "For he is a good God who alone loves mankind" is the traditional affirmation. Maybe it's a good thing you've finally come to an (ostensibly) non-Skeptical forum to learn about Christianity -- altho it's obviously taking you a while to adjust.
I liked the citation that God alone loves man. Never heard before. Where can I find it and what is the traditional view about God's foreknowledge in relation to freedom and predestination etc? Did God foresee eternal hell before creating the world?

Good gravy. Pardon my shock, but you really need to get to church. That's part of the prayers at almost any service, if not all of them.
I go to Church. Though I prefer not to take the eucharist since I do not deserve it in this condition, it would be to My condemnation. And I doubt God wants it. At least it feels wrong to take it before My heart says that is what God wants. And honestly, I have never heard at the liturgy that God ALONE loves mankind... Now... IF You dont mind, please answer the question about whether God from all eternity foreknew eternal torment in hell or not according to traditional theology...

I do mind. I do mind that you're wantonly dismissing a core of the Liturgy and instead ordering me to play your wretched little game. No thanks, and may God have mercy on your soul.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #157 on: June 13, 2017, 04:23:16 PM »
Anyway, in traditional theology, in the classical theist view, God foresaw the fatal consequences of creating man, whether those fatal consequences depends on man's fatal freedom or God's determinate Will but God did nothing to prevent these consequences. He  foresaw the perdition of many, but went along the line anyway. And I claim with confidence that this traditional view is a major reason to why many morally good people reject God and become atheists. It is the profound moral source of atheism.

You keep asserting this, every few posts, as tho that's going eventually to make it true.
As if what is true? This is the traditional view right? En these are the objections one often hear from morally serious unbelievers who try to understand.

Nope. It sure isn't. Christian Tradition does very little in the way of accusing God of evil -- shocking, I know. ::) "For he is a good God who alone loves mankind" is the traditional affirmation. Maybe it's a good thing you've finally come to an (ostensibly) non-Skeptical forum to learn about Christianity -- altho it's obviously taking you a while to adjust.
I liked the citation that God alone loves man. Never heard before. Where can I find it and what is the traditional view about God's foreknowledge in relation to freedom and predestination etc? Did God foresee eternal hell before creating the world?

Good gravy. Pardon my shock, but you really need to get to church. That's part of the prayers at almost any service, if not all of them.
I go to Church. Though I prefer not to take the eucharist since I do not deserve it in this condition, it would be to My condemnation. And I doubt God wants it. At least it feels wrong to take it before My heart says that is what God wants. And honestly, I have never heard at the liturgy that God ALONE loves mankind... Now... IF You dont mind, please answer the question about whether God from all eternity foreknew eternal torment in hell or not according to traditional theology...

I do mind. I do mind that you're wantonly dismissing a core of the Liturgy and instead ordering me to play your wretched little game. No thanks, and may God have mercy on your soul.
... "For You, O God, are good and love mankind"... That is What it says in the liturgy I have heard. Not the Word "alone". Not in the church I go to. Now I don't mean to be rude but I take it that you don't want to answer my question because you either now that it creates a moral problem, or because you know the answer and it again creates a moral answer. May God have mercy on you too... Sorry if I make you feel disgusted over my soul
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #158 on: June 13, 2017, 05:43:25 PM »
Who else created you?
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #159 on: June 13, 2017, 05:50:22 PM »
If only you spent half the youthful energy on studying the plan of salvation and its implications that you spend on the plan of damnation.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #160 on: June 14, 2017, 01:08:30 AM »
If only you spent half the youthful energy on studying the plan of salvation and its implications that you spend on the plan of damnation.
I find it selfish to spend my life working out my salvation. What about everybody else? I don't want to be a utilitarian. God either saves me or he doesn't. It would be better if I acquired a heart where I spend my energy caring about helping others being saved. Wouldn't it be better to prefer to alone be damned while rest of mankind is saved than to alone be saved while the rest of mankind is damned?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #161 on: June 14, 2017, 01:10:24 AM »
Who else created you?
I believe God created me yes. I just believe that all juridical interpretations of the Christian mysteries are humiliating. They humiliate both man and God.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #162 on: June 14, 2017, 01:24:20 AM »
And if God foresaw eternal hell from all eternity he indirectly created it. That seems blasphemous to me. It is a massive problem.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #163 on: June 14, 2017, 01:26:07 AM »
And if God foresaw eternal hell from all eternity he indirectly created it. That seems blasphemous to me. It is a massive problem.
IOW you want man's free will to be free from the consequences of his choices.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #164 on: June 14, 2017, 01:47:33 AM »
Who else created you?
I believe God created me yes. I just believe that all juridical interpretations of the Christian mysteries are humiliating. They humiliate both man and God.

Did anyone else create you or God ALONE create you?  Don't overthink it, just answer the question with simplicity.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 01:48:15 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #165 on: June 14, 2017, 05:29:19 AM »
And if God foresaw eternal hell from all eternity he indirectly created it. That seems blasphemous to me. It is a massive problem.
IOW you want man's free will to be free from the consequences of his choices.
I dont' want to be rude but it doesnt seem like You understand What I Am saying. Did our free Will and freedom to Make choices precede God's creation of us? Is that What You suggest?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #166 on: June 14, 2017, 05:32:52 AM »
Who else created you?
I believe God created me yes. I just believe that all juridical interpretations of the Christian mysteries are humiliating. They humiliate both man and God.

Did anyone else create you or God ALONE create you?  Don't overthink it, just answer the question with simplicity.
God created My being. Not My non-being. And it might be that IF freedom is real, then God didn't create freedom and has no power over freedom and its potentially fatal consequences which is non-being. Either that(which is My belief and takes away any responsibility of hell and evil from God) or freedom and free-Will are illusions. That is what I believe.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #167 on: June 14, 2017, 06:43:29 AM »
So God created a part of your being or ALL of your being (assume freedom is a part of your being)?
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #168 on: June 14, 2017, 06:58:28 AM »
So God created a part of your being or ALL of your being (assume freedom is a part of your being)?
Have you ever heard of Jacob Boehme's idea of ungrund, or Eckehart's idea of the gottheit, that is, the godhead? I believe these are expressions of their mystic intuitions of some sort of meonic freedom, where freedom is uncreated and independent of man. Man is part of this uncreated freedom as well as being made in the divine image. Now God created man, but he did not create man's freedom. Freedom runs the risk of having fatal consequences, since it can seperate man from God. Therefore, since God has no power over our freedom, the only thing he can do to truly overcome the fatal consequences of freedom is to step down into the abyss that comes from meonic freedom and release man from its force, which is what he does through the cross, by sacrificial love. And by demonstrating his powerlessness over our freedom through sacrificial love on the cross, he demonstrates his power over its fatal consequences, for whosoever is willing to accept his sacrifice. He freely dies to release us from the death that has come through our missuse of freedom, and by hus resurrection shows his own freedom , namely that he is free and has the last word: He is all-powerful over being, he can not be lost because of freedom, he can not missuse his freedom, and therefore death has no power over him. God created all of my BEING, but not the freedom that can lead to non-being, that is that which can lead to sin and death.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 07:01:49 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #169 on: June 14, 2017, 07:52:55 AM »
You know Beebert, I didn't read any of what you wrote after the word Boeme because frankly I don't care about the first few words.  You seem to have trouble with being simple in life in answering the question.  You will never understand the love of God if you don't let go with some of the silly complexities of your philosophical ramblings.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 07:53:19 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline biro

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #170 on: June 14, 2017, 07:56:46 AM »
You neglect the fact that people can choose whether or not to sin.

People receive the consequences of their actions.

They can also choose to repent.

God is not the author of sin.

You have no business blaming God.
I don't blame God. I question the traditional view and its logical consequences. We dont know all the mysteries that is behind the truth. At least least have the Courage to think and ask questions. Why not answering with your view of the problem I presented?

I did.

You continue to ignore our very numerous opportunities to repent.

You don't have to go to Hell.
My only weakness is, well, never mind

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God
« Reply #171 on: June 14, 2017, 08:14:10 AM »
You know Beebert, I didn't read any of what you wrote after the word Boeme because frankly I don't care about the first few words.  You seem to have trouble with being simple in life in answering the question.  You will never understand the love of God if you don't let go with some of the silly complexities of your philosophical ramblings.
Dont call it silly because it isnt.  If you dont care to understand then that is okay. But your response is typical this site and a typical that I get from all christians I have met. Please read what I wrote, specially since you asked the question that made me reaponse. And after that you can call me silly if that is still what you think. But please, at least try to be open-minded.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 08:19:08 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #172 on: June 14, 2017, 08:16:11 AM »
You neglect the fact that people can choose whether or not to sin.

People receive the consequences of their actions.

They can also choose to repent.

God is not the author of sin.

You have no business blaming God.
I don't blame God. I question the traditional view and its logical consequences. We dont know all the mysteries that is behind the truth. At least least have the Courage to think and ask questions. Why not answering with your view of the problem I presented?

I did.

You continue to ignore our very numerous opportunities to repent.

You don't have to go to Hell.
I cant repent.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God
« Reply #173 on: June 14, 2017, 08:39:06 AM »
You know Beebert, I didn't read any of what you wrote after the word Boeme because frankly I don't care about the first few words.  You seem to have trouble with being simple in life in answering the question.  You will never understand the love of God if you don't let go with some of the silly complexities of your philosophical ramblings.
Dont call it silly because it isnt.  If you dont care to understand then that is okay. But your response is typical this site and a typical that I get from all christians I have met. Please read what I wrote, specially since you asked the question that made me reaponse. And after that you can call me silly if that is still what you think. But please, at least try to be open-minded.

No, I'm not going to be complicit in your own unwillingness to be simple in your own personal life.  Simplicity is a virtue.  Learn it and embrace it.  I didn't ask for an essay of an answer.  I asked something very very very simple that I personally could have answered in a few words.

And I'm not doing this to frustrate you.  You bring upon yourself your own frustration.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 08:40:19 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #174 on: June 14, 2017, 08:56:03 AM »
And if God foresaw eternal hell from all eternity he indirectly created it. That seems blasphemous to me. It is a massive problem.

Do you mean why God created evil people if he foreknows that they will be evil and inherit eternal death?
For You keep my lamp burning; Lord my God You illumine my darkness. (Psalm 17:29)

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #175 on: June 14, 2017, 08:59:58 AM »
And if God foresaw eternal hell from all eternity he indirectly created it. That seems blasphemous to me. It is a massive problem.

Do you mean why God created evil people if he foreknows that they will be evil and inherit eternal death?
That is one of the things I wonder yes. Do you have an answer?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God
« Reply #176 on: June 14, 2017, 09:00:49 AM »
You know Beebert, I didn't read any of what you wrote after the word Boeme because frankly I don't care about the first few words.  You seem to have trouble with being simple in life in answering the question.  You will never understand the love of God if you don't let go with some of the silly complexities of your philosophical ramblings.
Dont call it silly because it isnt.  If you dont care to understand then that is okay. But your response is typical this site and a typical that I get from all christians I have met. Please read what I wrote, specially since you asked the question that made me reaponse. And after that you can call me silly if that is still what you think. But please, at least try to be open-minded.

No, I'm not going to be complicit in your own unwillingness to be simple in your own personal life.  Simplicity is a virtue.  Learn it and embrace it.  I didn't ask for an essay of an answer.  I asked something very very very simple that I personally could have answered in a few words.

And I'm not doing this to frustrate you.  You bring upon yourself your own frustration.
Simplicity is a virtue. But not stupidity. And especially not collective stupidity.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #177 on: June 14, 2017, 09:03:22 AM »
Suit yourself Beebert.  You obviously consider yourself smart enough that you do not know whether God created you or not.  You be the judge of how stupid that sounds.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Alkis

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #178 on: June 14, 2017, 09:04:47 AM »
And if God foresaw eternal hell from all eternity he indirectly created it. That seems blasphemous to me. It is a massive problem.

Do you mean why God created evil people if he foreknows that they will be evil and inherit eternal death?
That is one of the things I wonder yes. Do you have an answer?

Our holy Father, saint John of Damascus said a lot of things about evil and hell. That is why God created even evil people:
"God in His goodness brought what exists into being out of nothing, and has foreknowledge of what will exist in the future. If, therefore, they were not to exist in the future, they would neither be evil in the future nor would they be foreknown. For knowledge is of what exists and foreknowledge is of what will surely exist in the future. For simple being comes first and then good or evil being. But if the very existence of those, who through the goodness of God are in the future to exist, were to be prevented by the fact that they were to become evil of their own choice, evil would have prevailed over the goodness of God. Wherefore God makes all His works good, but each becomes of its own choice good or evil. Although, then, the Lord said, Goad were it for that man that he had never been barn, He said it in condemnation not of His own creation but of the evil which His own creation had acquired by his own choice and through his own heedlessness. For the heedlessness that marks man's judgment made His Creator's beneficence of no profit to him. It is just as if any one, when he had obtained riches and dominion from a king, were to lord it over his benefactor, who, when he has worsted him, will punish him as he deserves, if he should see him keeping hold of the sovereignty to the end."
Exact exposition of the orthodox faith, Book 4, Chapter 21

For You keep my lamp burning; Lord my God You illumine my darkness. (Psalm 17:29)

Offline beebert

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #179 on: June 14, 2017, 09:05:54 AM »
Suit yourself Beebert.  You obviously consider yourself smart enough that you do not know whether God created you or not.  You be the judge of how stupid that sounds.
Oh my... Is it impossible for people to understand what I am saying? I DO BELIEVE God created me.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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