Author Topic: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?  (Read 8132 times)

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Offline Hinterlander

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Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?

Offline hecma925

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2016, 04:15:10 PM »
Was he Orthodox when he wrote it?
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2016, 04:21:27 PM »
Was he Orthodox when he wrote it?

Augustine is an Orthodox saint. What are you talking about?

As for an Orthodox assessment, I'm not sure. If there is one, it will undoubtedly disagree with his predestinarian beliefs in it. Furthermore, they might be mad about Augustine's casual abandonment of the necessity of the Roman Empire for a Christian faith.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 04:24:46 PM by Rohzek »
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2016, 04:40:09 PM »
I thought there was many critiques. Augustine's origin as a member of the Gnostic heresy who eventually converted to Holy Orthodoxy and is now counted among the Saints of God unfortunately colored some of his later theology, not to mention his ignorance of Hebrew and Greek,  usage of misleading and corrupt Latin versions of the Bible and the Latin theology that he was by default inclined toward.

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Offline Georgios Scholarios

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2016, 06:00:32 PM »
The City of God (along with the Confessions) wasn't translated into Greek until the 1900s.

Of course, there have been Orthodox saints who have known Latin (e.g., Gennadios Scholarios, Peter Mogila, and Nikodemos the Hagiorite I think). I don't know whether they read it. Other than that, I do know that certain saints agreed with St. Augustine concerning ideas that can be found in The City of God. Nektarios of Aegina, for example, agreed with Augustine about the existence of valid sacraments outside of the Church, which I think shows up in The City of God, although maybe he found in it in another work by Augustine.

Finally, I'd add that it doesn't make much sense to me to ask for an "Orthodox assessment" of a work by an Orthodox saint who was looked on with respect by Gregory Palamas and Mark of Ephesus.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 06:04:49 PM by Georgios Scholarios »

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2016, 06:03:36 PM »
The City of God (along with the Confessions) wasn't translated into Greek until the 1900s.

Of course, there have been Orthodox saints who have known Latin (e.g., Gennadios Scholarios, Peter Mogila, and Nikodemos the Hagiorite I think). I don't know whether they read it. In addition, ideas found in The City of God can be found in his other writings. St. Nektarios, for example, agreed with Augustine about the existence of valid sacraments outside of the Church, which I think shows up in The City of God.

Finally, it doesn't make much sense to me to ask for an "Orthodox assessment" of a work by an Orthodox saint who was looked on with respect by Gregory Palamas and Mark of Ephesus.

I agree. He is a Orthodox theologian, Saint and God-bearing Father. He might've made mistakes, but so did the Apostles, they denied Christ! That doesn't take away from their holiness and Orthodoxy.
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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2016, 06:07:33 PM »
The City of God (along with the Confessions) wasn't translated into Greek until the 1900s.

Of course, there have been Orthodox saints who have known Latin (e.g., Gennadios Scholarios, Peter Mogila, and Nikodemos the Hagiorite I think). I don't know whether they read it. In addition, ideas found in The City of God can be found in his other writings. St. Nektarios, for example, agreed with Augustine about the existence of valid sacraments outside of the Church, which I think shows up in The City of God.

Finally, it doesn't make much sense to me to ask for an "Orthodox assessment" of a work by an Orthodox saint who was looked on with respect by Gregory Palamas and Mark of Ephesus.

I agree. He is a Orthodox theologian, Saint and God-bearing Father. He might've made mistakes, but so did the Apostles, they denied Christ! That doesn't take away from their holiness and Orthodoxy.

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison.  While I too venerate and admire St. Augustine, he did not live long enough to retract most of his teachings we may have issues with today.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2016, 06:10:21 PM »
The City of God (along with the Confessions) wasn't translated into Greek until the 1900s.

Of course, there have been Orthodox saints who have known Latin (e.g., Gennadios Scholarios, Peter Mogila, and Nikodemos the Hagiorite I think). I don't know whether they read it. In addition, ideas found in The City of God can be found in his other writings. St. Nektarios, for example, agreed with Augustine about the existence of valid sacraments outside of the Church, which I think shows up in The City of God.

Finally, it doesn't make much sense to me to ask for an "Orthodox assessment" of a work by an Orthodox saint who was looked on with respect by Gregory Palamas and Mark of Ephesus.

I agree. He is a Orthodox theologian, Saint and God-bearing Father. He might've made mistakes, but so did the Apostles, they denied Christ! That doesn't take away from their holiness and Orthodoxy.

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison.  While I too venerate and admire St. Augustine, he did not live long enough to retract most of his teachings we may have issues with today.

There are people who preach Ss. Isaac the Syrian and Gregory of Nyssa on universal reconciliation and St. Irenaeus on Chilasm (rejected by the Second Ecumenical Council), but they are still Orthodox Fathers.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 06:11:00 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2016, 06:37:06 PM »
The City of God (along with the Confessions) wasn't translated into Greek until the 1900s.

Of course, there have been Orthodox saints who have known Latin (e.g., Gennadios Scholarios, Peter Mogila, and Nikodemos the Hagiorite I think). I don't know whether they read it. In addition, ideas found in The City of God can be found in his other writings. St. Nektarios, for example, agreed with Augustine about the existence of valid sacraments outside of the Church, which I think shows up in The City of God.

Finally, it doesn't make much sense to me to ask for an "Orthodox assessment" of a work by an Orthodox saint who was looked on with respect by Gregory Palamas and Mark of Ephesus.

I agree. He is a Orthodox theologian, Saint and God-bearing Father. He might've made mistakes, but so did the Apostles, they denied Christ! That doesn't take away from their holiness and Orthodoxy.

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison.  While I too venerate and admire St. Augustine, he did not live long enough to retract most of his teachings we may have issues with today.

There are people who preach Ss. Isaac the Syrian and Gregory of Nyssa on universal reconciliation and St. Irenaeus on Chilasm (rejected by the Second Ecumenical Council), but they are still Orthodox Fathers.

Origen.
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2016, 06:39:00 PM »
The City of God (along with the Confessions) wasn't translated into Greek until the 1900s.

Of course, there have been Orthodox saints who have known Latin (e.g., Gennadios Scholarios, Peter Mogila, and Nikodemos the Hagiorite I think). I don't know whether they read it. In addition, ideas found in The City of God can be found in his other writings. St. Nektarios, for example, agreed with Augustine about the existence of valid sacraments outside of the Church, which I think shows up in The City of God.

Finally, it doesn't make much sense to me to ask for an "Orthodox assessment" of a work by an Orthodox saint who was looked on with respect by Gregory Palamas and Mark of Ephesus.

I agree. He is a Orthodox theologian, Saint and God-bearing Father. He might've made mistakes, but so did the Apostles, they denied Christ! That doesn't take away from their holiness and Orthodoxy.

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison.  While I too venerate and admire St. Augustine, he did not live long enough to retract most of his teachings we may have issues with today.

There are people who preach Ss. Isaac the Syrian and Gregory of Nyssa on universal reconciliation and St. Irenaeus on Chilasm (rejected by the Second Ecumenical Council), but they are still Orthodox Fathers.

Origen.

Tertullian. I just don't see why Augustine is criticized when other Fathers were in error. St. Leo was in error about Christology, as non-Chalcedonians believe and I personally believe. Although I consider him, and the Church considers him, a Saint. Same with St. Patrick who used a modalist analogy for the Holy Trinity.

It just seems like Easterners hating on Western theology.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 06:40:16 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2016, 06:42:28 PM »
The City of God (along with the Confessions) wasn't translated into Greek until the 1900s.

Of course, there have been Orthodox saints who have known Latin (e.g., Gennadios Scholarios, Peter Mogila, and Nikodemos the Hagiorite I think). I don't know whether they read it. In addition, ideas found in The City of God can be found in his other writings. St. Nektarios, for example, agreed with Augustine about the existence of valid sacraments outside of the Church, which I think shows up in The City of God.

Finally, it doesn't make much sense to me to ask for an "Orthodox assessment" of a work by an Orthodox saint who was looked on with respect by Gregory Palamas and Mark of Ephesus.

I agree. He is a Orthodox theologian, Saint and God-bearing Father. He might've made mistakes, but so did the Apostles, they denied Christ! That doesn't take away from their holiness and Orthodoxy.

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison.  While I too venerate and admire St. Augustine, he did not live long enough to retract most of his teachings we may have issues with today.

There are people who preach Ss. Isaac the Syrian and Gregory of Nyssa on universal reconciliation and St. Irenaeus on Chilasm (rejected by the Second Ecumenical Council), but they are still Orthodox Fathers.

Better comparisons

The City of God (along with the Confessions) wasn't translated into Greek until the 1900s.

Of course, there have been Orthodox saints who have known Latin (e.g., Gennadios Scholarios, Peter Mogila, and Nikodemos the Hagiorite I think). I don't know whether they read it. In addition, ideas found in The City of God can be found in his other writings. St. Nektarios, for example, agreed with Augustine about the existence of valid sacraments outside of the Church, which I think shows up in The City of God.

Finally, it doesn't make much sense to me to ask for an "Orthodox assessment" of a work by an Orthodox saint who was looked on with respect by Gregory Palamas and Mark of Ephesus.

I agree. He is a Orthodox theologian, Saint and God-bearing Father. He might've made mistakes, but so did the Apostles, they denied Christ! That doesn't take away from their holiness and Orthodoxy.

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison.  While I too venerate and admire St. Augustine, he did not live long enough to retract most of his teachings we may have issues with today.

There are people who preach Ss. Isaac the Syrian and Gregory of Nyssa on universal reconciliation and St. Irenaeus on Chilasm (rejected by the Second Ecumenical Council), but they are still Orthodox Fathers.

Origen.

The best comparison...one who I would like to see canonized someday

The City of God (along with the Confessions) wasn't translated into Greek until the 1900s.

Of course, there have been Orthodox saints who have known Latin (e.g., Gennadios Scholarios, Peter Mogila, and Nikodemos the Hagiorite I think). I don't know whether they read it. In addition, ideas found in The City of God can be found in his other writings. St. Nektarios, for example, agreed with Augustine about the existence of valid sacraments outside of the Church, which I think shows up in The City of God.

Finally, it doesn't make much sense to me to ask for an "Orthodox assessment" of a work by an Orthodox saint who was looked on with respect by Gregory Palamas and Mark of Ephesus.

I agree. He is a Orthodox theologian, Saint and God-bearing Father. He might've made mistakes, but so did the Apostles, they denied Christ! That doesn't take away from their holiness and Orthodoxy.

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison.  While I too venerate and admire St. Augustine, he did not live long enough to retract most of his teachings we may have issues with today.

There are people who preach Ss. Isaac the Syrian and Gregory of Nyssa on universal reconciliation and St. Irenaeus on Chilasm (rejected by the Second Ecumenical Council), but they are still Orthodox Fathers.

Origen.

Tertullian. I just don't see why Augustine is criticized when other Fathers were in error. St. Leo was in error about Christology, as non-Chalcedonians believe and I personally believe. Although I consider him, and the Church considers him, a Saint. Same with St. Patrick who used a modalist analogy for the Holy Trinity.

It just seems like Easterners hating on Western theology.

I respect that, though to be fair, not many Chalcedonians will agree with you.  But then again, I'm not one to comment any further on this specific matter
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If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2016, 06:45:38 PM »
The City of God (along with the Confessions) wasn't translated into Greek until the 1900s.

Of course, there have been Orthodox saints who have known Latin (e.g., Gennadios Scholarios, Peter Mogila, and Nikodemos the Hagiorite I think). I don't know whether they read it. In addition, ideas found in The City of God can be found in his other writings. St. Nektarios, for example, agreed with Augustine about the existence of valid sacraments outside of the Church, which I think shows up in The City of God.

Finally, it doesn't make much sense to me to ask for an "Orthodox assessment" of a work by an Orthodox saint who was looked on with respect by Gregory Palamas and Mark of Ephesus.

I agree. He is a Orthodox theologian, Saint and God-bearing Father. He might've made mistakes, but so did the Apostles, they denied Christ! That doesn't take away from their holiness and Orthodoxy.

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison.  While I too venerate and admire St. Augustine, he did not live long enough to retract most of his teachings we may have issues with today.

There are people who preach Ss. Isaac the Syrian and Gregory of Nyssa on universal reconciliation and St. Irenaeus on Chilasm (rejected by the Second Ecumenical Council), but they are still Orthodox Fathers.

Origen.

The best comparison...one who I would like to see canonized someday

Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2016, 06:50:00 PM »
I bought a wooden reprint "icon" of this.  I put it in my study room when I read or study for exams.

If I had enough money though, I want a customized one.  Some of the saints named like Maximus the Confessor or Cyril the Great does not really have that strong admirable connection to him as the Cappadocians or Evagrius much later
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2016, 06:55:36 PM »
The City of God (along with the Confessions) wasn't translated into Greek until the 1900s.

Of course, there have been Orthodox saints who have known Latin (e.g., Gennadios Scholarios, Peter Mogila, and Nikodemos the Hagiorite I think). I don't know whether they read it. In addition, ideas found in The City of God can be found in his other writings. St. Nektarios, for example, agreed with Augustine about the existence of valid sacraments outside of the Church, which I think shows up in The City of God.

Finally, it doesn't make much sense to me to ask for an "Orthodox assessment" of a work by an Orthodox saint who was looked on with respect by Gregory Palamas and Mark of Ephesus.

I agree. He is a Orthodox theologian, Saint and God-bearing Father. He might've made mistakes, but so did the Apostles, they denied Christ! That doesn't take away from their holiness and Orthodoxy.

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison.  While I too venerate and admire St. Augustine, he did not live long enough to retract most of his teachings we may have issues with today.

There are people who preach Ss. Isaac the Syrian and Gregory of Nyssa on universal reconciliation and St. Irenaeus on Chilasm (rejected by the Second Ecumenical Council), but they are still Orthodox Fathers.

Origen.

The best comparison...one who I would like to see canonized someday



That is the funniest thing I've ever seen.  ;D
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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2016, 06:57:34 PM »
The City of God (along with the Confessions) wasn't translated into Greek until the 1900s.

Of course, there have been Orthodox saints who have known Latin (e.g., Gennadios Scholarios, Peter Mogila, and Nikodemos the Hagiorite I think). I don't know whether they read it. In addition, ideas found in The City of God can be found in his other writings. St. Nektarios, for example, agreed with Augustine about the existence of valid sacraments outside of the Church, which I think shows up in The City of God.

Finally, it doesn't make much sense to me to ask for an "Orthodox assessment" of a work by an Orthodox saint who was looked on with respect by Gregory Palamas and Mark of Ephesus.

I agree. He is a Orthodox theologian, Saint and God-bearing Father. He might've made mistakes, but so did the Apostles, they denied Christ! That doesn't take away from their holiness and Orthodoxy.

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison.  While I too venerate and admire St. Augustine, he did not live long enough to retract most of his teachings we may have issues with today.

There are people who preach Ss. Isaac the Syrian and Gregory of Nyssa on universal reconciliation and St. Irenaeus on Chilasm (rejected by the Second Ecumenical Council), but they are still Orthodox Fathers.

Origen.

The best comparison...one who I would like to see canonized someday



That is the funniest thing I've ever seen.  ;D

Many of the saints disagree with you. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2016, 07:15:57 PM »
Augustine himself, close to the end of his life, began writing his "retractions" but never finished them.   In them one might find a kind of rebuttal and critique of his own previous writings, however incomplete it may be.   

Quote
I am reviewing my works - books, letters and sermons - and as it were, with the pen of a censor, I am indicating what dissatisfies me.  For, truly, only an ignorant man will have the hardihood to criticize me for criticizing my own errors.   But if he maintains that I should not have said those things which, indeed, dissatisfied me later, he speaks the truth and concurs with me.  In fact, he and I are critics of the same thing...

without a doubt, many things can be collected from my numerous disputations which, if not false, yet may certainly seem or even be proved unnecessary.


https://www.amazon.com/Retractations-Fathers-Church-Patristic/dp/0813209706

Augustine lived in difficult times in an area under siege.   Anyone trying to wrestle with his writing needs to learn as much as they can about the threats he faced, his goals in standing up to them, and his later writings which either abrogate or nuance the contingency of many of his arguments.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2016, 08:18:01 PM »
The City of God (along with the Confessions) wasn't translated into Greek until the 1900s.

Of course, there have been Orthodox saints who have known Latin (e.g., Gennadios Scholarios, Peter Mogila, and Nikodemos the Hagiorite I think). I don't know whether they read it. In addition, ideas found in The City of God can be found in his other writings. St. Nektarios, for example, agreed with Augustine about the existence of valid sacraments outside of the Church, which I think shows up in The City of God.

Finally, it doesn't make much sense to me to ask for an "Orthodox assessment" of a work by an Orthodox saint who was looked on with respect by Gregory Palamas and Mark of Ephesus.

I agree. He is a Orthodox theologian, Saint and God-bearing Father. He might've made mistakes, but so did the Apostles, they denied Christ! That doesn't take away from their holiness and Orthodoxy.

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison.  While I too venerate and admire St. Augustine, he did not live long enough to retract most of his teachings we may have issues with today.

There are people who preach Ss. Isaac the Syrian and Gregory of Nyssa on universal reconciliation and St. Irenaeus on Chilasm (rejected by the Second Ecumenical Council), but they are still Orthodox Fathers.

Origen.

The best comparison...one who I would like to see canonized someday



That is the funniest thing I've ever seen.  ;D

Many of the saints disagree with you.

Indeed. I don't doubt Origen's relevance in the slightest. He was one of the most influential Christian writers in the whole history of the Church, it's a shame he was anathematized.
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I will likely lurk on this forum under a different name.

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2016, 10:53:13 PM »
Augustine himself, close to the end of his life, began writing his "retractions" but never finished them.   In them one might find a kind of rebuttal and critique of his own previous writings, however incomplete it may be.   

Quote
I am reviewing my works - books, letters and sermons - and as it were, with the pen of a censor, I am indicating what dissatisfies me.  For, truly, only an ignorant man will have the hardihood to criticize me for criticizing my own errors.   But if he maintains that I should not have said those things which, indeed, dissatisfied me later, he speaks the truth and concurs with me.  In fact, he and I are critics of the same thing...

without a doubt, many things can be collected from my numerous disputations which, if not false, yet may certainly seem or even be proved unnecessary.


https://www.amazon.com/Retractations-Fathers-Church-Patristic/dp/0813209706

Augustine lived in difficult times in an area under siege.   Anyone trying to wrestle with his writing needs to learn as much as they can about the threats he faced, his goals in standing up to them, and his later writings which either abrogate or nuance the contingency of many of his arguments.

I'm very sympathetic to this actually.  Perhaps if one assumes that he might have retracted what many Orthodox would frown upon in his writings, he might be comparable to the Apostles in this way, I suppose.
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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2016, 11:05:58 PM »
Augustine himself, close to the end of his life, began writing his "retractions" but never finished them.   In them one might find a kind of rebuttal and critique of his own previous writings, however incomplete it may be.   

Quote
I am reviewing my works - books, letters and sermons - and as it were, with the pen of a censor, I am indicating what dissatisfies me.  For, truly, only an ignorant man will have the hardihood to criticize me for criticizing my own errors.   But if he maintains that I should not have said those things which, indeed, dissatisfied me later, he speaks the truth and concurs with me.  In fact, he and I are critics of the same thing...

without a doubt, many things can be collected from my numerous disputations which, if not false, yet may certainly seem or even be proved unnecessary.


https://www.amazon.com/Retractations-Fathers-Church-Patristic/dp/0813209706

Augustine lived in difficult times in an area under siege.   Anyone trying to wrestle with his writing needs to learn as much as they can about the threats he faced, his goals in standing up to them, and his later writings which either abrogate or nuance the contingency of many of his arguments.

I'm very sympathetic to this actually.  Perhaps if one assumes that he might have retracted what many Orthodox would frown upon in his writings, he might be comparable to the Apostles in this way, I suppose.
Didn't he humbly retract after St. Jerome exhortated him to rethink a certain theological issue? A bishop told this to me once, but as I google it I can only find their debate on the Latin translation of the OT, which I doubt to have been what the bishop told me about.
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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2016, 11:14:56 PM »
I didn't really hear of the story with St. Jerome, but what I only know is what Onesimus wrote, which is that St. Augustine had an unfinished work called "retractions", correcting a few of his past written mistakes.
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Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2016, 11:17:42 PM »
I tried reading it once but gave up before he stopped talking about how lame the Roman gods are, or something like that. I forget. Also it had not entered my mind to become Orthodox at the time, so "tl;dr" doesn't qualify as an Orthodox critique ::)
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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2016, 11:18:27 PM »
I didn't really hear of the story with St. Jerome, but what I only know is what Onesimus wrote, which is that St. Augustine had an unfinished work called "retractions", correcting a few of his past written mistakes.
Yes, there's this one. I have no idea if any of it makes his previous work significantly more Orthodox, but it already shows his intellectual humility, aside his radical mind change on conversion despite being such an initiate.
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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2016, 01:57:02 AM »
I thought there was many critiques. Augustine's origin as a member of the Gnostic heresy who eventually converted to Holy Orthodoxy and is now counted among the Saints of God unfortunately colored some of his later theology, not to mention his ignorance of Hebrew and Greek,  usage of misleading and corrupt Latin versions of the Bible and the Latin theology that he was by default inclined toward.

St. Augustine pray for us!

At risk of being pedantic, St. Augustine was not a Gnostic, but rather a Manichaean. The former is a fairly non-scientific term to label a large group of distinct, though at times interrelated, religious movements; most of the movements called "Gnostic" never called themselves that. The only group that did were the Mandaeans, whose name means more or less "gnostic." Manichaeism has the distinction of being the only world religion to die out, and its practice focused less on "secret knowledge" than a belief that the bodies of the "elect" functioned as refineries freeing light particles from food and returning them to the Father of Lights; the "hearers," of which the young Augustine was one, primarily supported the physical needs of the elect.

St. Augustine pray for us!
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Is there an Orthodox assessment/critique of Augustine's City of God?
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2016, 02:19:33 AM »
Just a note, St. Irenaeus said of the followers of Carpocrates: "They style themselves Gnostics." (Against Heresies, 1.25.6)
« Last Edit: November 23, 2016, 02:20:46 AM by Asteriktos »

Offline jeffinjapan

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Was he Orthodox when he wrote it?
Augustine is an Orthodox saint.

Well...that depends on who you talk to or what books you read. There certainly is not a consensus that he is a Saint.
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Offline beebert

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Augustine had some admirable qualities. His psychological depth is impressing for example. Though some of his ideas are outright evil and sadistic.
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[quote/]There are people who preach Ss. Isaac the Syrian and Gregory of Nyssa on universal reconciliation and St. Irenaeus on Chilasm (rejected by the Second Ecumenical Council), but they are still Orthodox Fathers.[/quote]

Universal reconciliation as expressed by St. Isaac the Syrian was NOT rejected by the Second Ecumenical Council.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 05:03:57 AM by jeffinjapan »
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Whoever rejects the possibility and Hope of universal salvation is a nihilist and a selfish heavenly utilitarist.
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Nektarios of Aegina, for example, agreed with Augustine about the existence of valid sacraments outside of the Church, which I think shows up in The City of God, although maybe he found in it in another work by Augustine.

That is really interesting! I have wondered for quite a while now whether (& if so how) it's possible, from an Orthodox point of view, for there to be valid sacraments outside the Church. I don't want to derail the thread, but is there any chance you could briefly point me to some reading on this position e.g. where St Nektarios of Aegina and St Augustine each discuss this?? Thank you so much  :)
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Was he Orthodox when he wrote it?
Augustine is an Orthodox saint.

Well...that depends on who you talk to or what books you read. There certainly is not a consensus that he is a Saint.
He was confirmed as a saint by an ecumenical council, commemorated in many calendars, and deeply admired by many Orthodox saints (pre- and post-Schism), the beef of a couple of modern writers can't "de-saint" him.
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Whoever rejects the possibility and Hope of universal salvation is a nihilist and a selfish heavenly utilitarist.

Matthew 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

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Whoever rejects the possibility and Hope of universal salvation is a nihilist and a selfish heavenly utilitarist.

Matthew 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
So then what do you pray and Hope for? Yourself and you own bliss and nothing else?

Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

God wants it. So should you.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 08:21:18 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline primuspilus

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Whoever rejects the possibility and Hope of universal salvation is a nihilist and a selfish heavenly utilitarist.

Matthew 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
So then what do you pray and Hope for? Yourself and you own bliss and nothing else?

Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

God wants it. So should you.
Hope for the best, expect the worst.

PP
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Offline beebert

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Whoever rejects the possibility and Hope of universal salvation is a nihilist and a selfish heavenly utilitarist.

Matthew 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
So then what do you pray and Hope for? Yourself and you own bliss and nothing else?

Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

God wants it. So should you.
Hope for the best, expect the worst.

PP
Why not Hope for the best and expect nothing?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline primuspilus

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Whoever rejects the possibility and Hope of universal salvation is a nihilist and a selfish heavenly utilitarist.

Matthew 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
So then what do you pray and Hope for? Yourself and you own bliss and nothing else?

Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

God wants it. So should you.
Hope for the best, expect the worst.

PP
Why not Hope for the best and expect nothing?
because I'm a human being who is honest with himself.

PP
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Gregory the Great

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Offline beebert

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Whoever rejects the possibility and Hope of universal salvation is a nihilist and a selfish heavenly utilitarist.

Matthew 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
So then what do you pray and Hope for? Yourself and you own bliss and nothing else?

Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

God wants it. So should you.
Hope for the best, expect the worst.

PP
Why not Hope for the best and expect nothing?
because I'm a human being who is honest with himself.

PP
Then Maybe it is best to leave the judgment to God... And meanwhile be inspired by the honesty of Moses when he said "But now, if you will forgive their sin—but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written.” in Exodus 32:32. Or as Paul in Romans 9:3: "For my people, my Jewish brothers and sisters. I would be willing to be forever cursed--cut off from Christ!--if that would save them.". Or why not Christ himself when he said  "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." in Luke 23:24
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Whoever rejects the possibility and Hope of universal salvation is a nihilist and a selfish heavenly utilitarist.

Matthew 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
So then what do you pray and Hope for? Yourself and you own bliss and nothing else?

Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

God wants it. So should you.
Hope for the best, expect the worst.

PP
Why not Hope for the best and expect nothing?
because I'm a human being who is honest with himself.

PP
Then Maybe it is best to leave the judgment to God... And meanwhile be inspired by the honesty of Moses when he said "But now, if you will forgive their sin—but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written.” in Exodus 32:32. Or as Paul in Romans 9:3: "For my people, my Jewish brothers and sisters. I would be willing to be forever cursed--cut off from Christ!--if that would save them.". Or why not Christ himself when he said  "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." in Luke 23:24

And yet, somehow, all of them managed to avoid long ranting insults of God, on the internet or anywhere.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Whoever rejects the possibility and Hope of universal salvation is a nihilist and a selfish heavenly utilitarist.

Matthew 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
So then what do you pray and Hope for? Yourself and you own bliss and nothing else?

Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

God wants it. So should you.
Hope for the best, expect the worst.

PP
Why not Hope for the best and expect nothing?
because I'm a human being who is honest with himself.

PP
Then Maybe it is best to leave the judgment to God... And meanwhile be inspired by the honesty of Moses when he said "But now, if you will forgive their sin—but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written.” in Exodus 32:32. Or as Paul in Romans 9:3: "For my people, my Jewish brothers and sisters. I would be willing to be forever cursed--cut off from Christ!--if that would save them.". Or why not Christ himself when he said  "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." in Luke 23:24

And yet, somehow, all of them managed to avoid long ranting insults of God, on the internet or anywhere.
Which God have I insulted? I highly doubt that Most Christians Believe in the true God. I think Most people Believe in a God of their own imagination, which they then use to terrorise others. That is the God I have experienced and despise.To rebell against a false Tyrant God must be a righteous thing. I admire Nietzsche for ranting against protestant and catholic psychological terrorists.
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Offline Iconodule

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Beebert, could you move this discussion over to one of the several threads you already started about it? Some people might actually want to talk about Saint Augustine.
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Offline beebert

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Beebert, could you move this discussion over to one of the several threads you already started about it? Some people might actually want to talk about Saint Augustine.
Yes of course! I apologize
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Offline beebert

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Let me then say something about Augustine and the City of God. I read some 100 pages of this work today and yesterday and must say I lost almost all respect I had for him before. Origen was certainly a far more gifted Christian philosopher and certainly morally superior to Augustine. Augustine seems like a vengeful and troubled man filled with hatred towards life who was exceptionally afraid of suffering in this life and therefore wanted to flee to the next. A coward to put it simply. And a heretic. He was without a doubt calvinistic. Calvin interpreted him correctly it seems too, since Augustine even speaks of people being predestined to damnation in this relatively ungifted work(compared to his confessions)
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Let me then say something about Augustine and the City of God. I read some 100 pages of this work today and yesterday and must say I lost almost all respect I had for him before. Origen was certainly a far more gifted Christian philosopher and certainly morally superior to Augustine. Augustine seems like a vengeful and troubled man filled with hatred towards life who was exceptionally afraid of suffering in this life and therefore wanted to flee to the next. A coward to put it simply. And a heretic. He was without a doubt calvinistic. Calvin interpreted him correctly it seems too, since Augustine even speaks of people being predestined to damnation in this relatively ungifted work(compared to his confessions)

Even if it weren't a Saint you were reacting to, that level of hatred toward someone in that much detail after less than two days of approaching their work can't be healthy. Maybe you need to cut down on your sugar intake.
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Augustine seems like a vengeful and troubled man filled with hatred towards life who was exceptionally afraid of suffering in this life and therefore wanted to flee to the next. A coward to put it simply. And a heretic.

The absolute nothingness of death would be a blessing. Something to look forward to.
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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Offline Rohzek

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I don't think St. Augustine has a poor view of God, but rather a poor view of humanity.
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Offline RaphaCam

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I don't think St. Augustine has a poor view of God, but rather a poor view of humanity.
Good remark.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese)