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Author Topic: Ethnicity of a differnt sort  (Read 8667 times) Average Rating: 0
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StephenG
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« Reply #45 on: September 10, 2005, 07:19:58 PM »

Thanks to aserb.

Ethnic? This word appears again and again, but to an outsider or someone whose first language wasn't English in a nonsensical way.

You may ask the ethnic origin of anyone. In truth we are all ethnic, Poles, Irish, Italian, Greek or whatever, and some are of mixed ethnic origin - possibly a majority in a number of Western countries. Cradle Orthodox? Does that include those born and raised as Orthodox by first generation Orthodox Christians? Or are both ethnic and cradle Orthodox attempts to distinguish those who originate from groups who have been Orthodox Christians for generations?

I suspect it does not matter. None of us are superior. All of us have faults, and we are usually blind to our own but very perceptive of the faults of others or those different from ourselves in some way. And, I believe we all may bring something positive to the table but not if we are blinded by finger pointing at others.

The important thing is to follow Him. I sometimes think the tensions between this or that group originate with the Prince of Lies, who is always seeking to lure us away. And all too often it is too easy to be seduced and feel 'righteous' in the process.

For myself, I enjoy meeting people who come from whatever background.

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« Reply #46 on: September 11, 2005, 12:31:55 AM »

Timos,

Wanted to respond to some of the things you wrote.

American Orthodox think that their churches are ethnic...well you should come to Canada and see how its like up here. In my fairly large suburban city we got almost every ethnic jurisdiction of both EO and OO churches and let me tell you they are rarely at peace with each other.

I lived in Toronto for 26 years and never saw any of this.

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The Serbs come to our Greek parish once a year for Liturgy and vice verca...the Copts and the Greeks are always arguing and bickering....so are the Greeks and the Macedonians, the Macedonians and the Serbians...whats new?

The Macedonian issue is the only issue I've really seen, but there is good reason for bickering with them.

Quote
As for us being rich...seriously, we just finished the interior dry walls of our parish and transformed it from being an ugly warehouse to a beautiful byzantine building without icons...and it took us a decade to do so... the ethnic Arab Antiochians a block away don't have a parish yet. They worship in a Baptist church for the time being. The Serbians recently got their magnificent yet tiny church built and so did the Macedonians. My parents worked their ***** off to get to where are and we are not particularly distinguished ppl in my city just the average car n house owning family.

Unfortunately I think this is a big problem for everyone (except maybe the Greeks).  The newest Serbian Orthodox Church in your neck of the woods is St. Sava (on Dixie Rd. - Mississauga), and it has been "under construction" for about 10 years now.  The walls are still bare (although the Church itself is a magnificent building).  St. Artimje in Whitby is in shambles.  Not much better for St. Sava (on River & Gerard).

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If you think the U.S has a problem with ethnic-versus the caker folk  (excuse my lingo) then again you should seriously come check out our churches. We have like 1 OCA non-ethnic church about an hour away from downtown toronto...and thats all. We get non-ethnics come into our parishes all the time and walk out not knowing what they just experienced and so sometimes they never come back again. At my catholic school, everyone says i go to the greek church...

I've been out of Toronto for so long, I forgot the "caker" word.  For those who don't know, cake or caker stems from Italians calling "Canadians" - manga cakes.  It is a derogatory term, meant to suggest, little or no culture.  Not a nice word, and I'd never refer to you as a "caker" Timos.  Wink

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It's really sad. I can't walk into the local Serbian church without getting stares because I do not speak Serbian.


It is terribly sad that I can't disagree with you here.  Unfortunately, I once witnessed three blacks (they don't say "African-Canadians" in Canada), turned away from one of our Churches (although I was not privy to the conversation, my belief is that they were turned away on the basis of being black).  I was too young to understand what was going on at the time, but I'm hopeful things would be different today.

In fact, at St. Sava on Dixie Rd. you should go see Father Doder.  I assure you he will give you a much better impression of the Serbian Orthodox Church in Toronto.  He was born in Chicago and raised in Toronto.  I promise he won't give you "stares".

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My parish has been up and running for a decade now and we have lots of english...ok our chanters only chant in greek but for a decade of 1st generation greeks thats pretty good if I say so myself. BTW, the Arab Antiochians do the same and aso do the Serbians...

Btw, I'd love to come to your parish on my next visit to T.O., but didn't even know the OCA had parishes there.  Let me know where it is at.

Regards.
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« Reply #47 on: September 11, 2005, 02:28:44 AM »

South Serb 99, wow you are correct..are you psychic or something?

lol I am no where near caker. I've got the thickest ethnic blood around..well except for my next door neighbours Chinese and Pakistanis.

St. Sava is where we went to perform in their dance hall. They got a community hall and its just like stepping back in time 60 years ago to an old Serbian town during a feast. its really nifty. I've met that priest you are talking about. He came and did liturgy with our priest.

If you ever come back and visit come by Prophet Elias church (GOAC). Since I can tell u know your way around, Prophet elias is off of Dixie and Eglinton....drive down Dixie in the opposite direction of the church...going towards eglinton and when you hit eglinton kep going and you should see aTim Hortons (in case you forgot that is a coffe shop named after a popular Canadian hockey player...man i luv hockey its a shame its not on tv nemore) and Wendys and a Staples....the church is right behind the Staples..u can miss it but not if ur careful or if the glint from the steel dome hts your car. its got two byzantine bell towers with bells hanging down and a huge dome in the middle and a sign with both a small greek and canadian flags waving around.

Liturgy is at 10 am usually, and its got some english. The greek community and the serbs are good friends. We performed during Carassauga like i said before at their hall and they came to our pavillion too. if you ever do swing by, lemee know so i know u comin that sunday and we can chill afterwards.

Also there are 1 or 2 serbian churches downtown whichthey bought off of other denominations.

Have you ever been to the Romanian St. Andrews church also on Dixie? Well that was our church before we moved out of there. Its basically a really tiny farmhouse which now has a sign saying "Biserica Romana" meaning Romanian church. There a neat story that beforethat church burnt down and all the censers and icons all melted down except for one icon with a cloth on it of Prophet Elias...it was the only thing that survived the fire untouched. Its considered a miracle and we still have it. There was just a little soot on it which we've managed to clear off.

A block south exactly i beleive the antiochians are renting a protestant church and their liturgy is at 5 pm. We go sometimes.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Caker also can mean how the Canadian/American non ethnic people eat cake...they don't eat the real food...lol. this in turn comes from the fact that in the old country ppl don't have sliced and sweetened bread. Here we got toast which is sliced and sweetened. Before my mom moved over she never had toast. When she came here she was amused to find the bread perfectly sliced and sweetened. Smiley


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« Reply #48 on: September 11, 2005, 02:52:06 AM »

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It is terribly sad that I can't disagree with you here.ÂÂ  Unfortunately, I once witnessed three blacks (they don't say "African-Canadians" in Canada), turned away from one of our Churches (although I was not privy to the conversation, my belief is that they were turned away on the basis of being black).ÂÂ  I was too young to understand what was going on at the time, but I'm hopeful things would be different today.

This happened to a (black) friend of mine that had asked me about Orthodoxy and then expressed interest in attending liturgy with me.ÂÂ  Nothing overly overt was said to him by the Greeks, more they simply acted as if he didn't exist.ÂÂ  Usually someone will "befriend" newcomers - but not in this case.  He would still talk to me from time to time about Orthodoxy, so I could tell he was still interested, but definetely not there.  Not too far from me there is a ROCOR mission that is really good (very friendly, welcoming, and solid all around).  He ended up fitting in with the community very well and being baptized recently.  So in the end a happy story, despite some initial problems.  It is sad to see racism get in the way of spreading the Gospel. 
« Last Edit: September 11, 2005, 02:58:09 AM by Silouan » Logged
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« Reply #49 on: September 11, 2005, 06:37:50 PM »

This happened to a (black) friend of mine that had asked me about Orthodoxy and then expressed interest in attending liturgy with me.ÂÂ  Nothing overly overt was said to him by the Greeks, more they simply acted as if he didn't exist.ÂÂ  Usually someone will "befriend" newcomers - but not in this case.ÂÂ  He would still talk to me from time to time about Orthodoxy, so I could tell he was still interested, but definetely not there.ÂÂ  Not too far from me there is a ROCOR mission that is really good (very friendly, welcoming, and solid all around).ÂÂ  He ended up fitting in with the community very well and being baptized recently.ÂÂ  So in the end a happy story, despite some initial problems.ÂÂ  It is sad to see racism get in the way of spreading the Gospel.ÂÂ  

Well let us ask this question of all those on this forum:  How many black members do you have in your church and what jurisdiction are you?

JoeS

I will go first. We have "0" black members and we are OCA.

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SouthSerb99
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« Reply #50 on: September 11, 2005, 06:41:14 PM »

Sadly 0, and because of moves across the country, this is the 4th Serbian Orthodox Church I've belonged to and we've never had a single "visible minority" in any parish.
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« Reply #51 on: September 11, 2005, 07:03:19 PM »

We have one black gentleman who comes when he is able to (strictly speaking, however, he's not a member yet).  Our parish belongs to the Indian Orthodox Church. 
« Last Edit: September 11, 2005, 07:04:00 PM by Mor Ephrem » Logged

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« Reply #52 on: September 11, 2005, 07:11:41 PM »

We have a few, from eritrean stock, who come every so often, when they're not working.  OCA.
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« Reply #53 on: September 11, 2005, 07:28:27 PM »

I have known of a number of ROCOR parishes with 'Black' parishioners, including those who served in the alter and were counted as parish stalwarts. An Ethiopian, not a parish member not being Orthodox, but much admired and respected for her great piety and fasting. In Greece I have met African monks and a couple who had just been married, all responded to in a positive way.
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« Reply #54 on: September 11, 2005, 07:52:30 PM »

One at the moment and another with large family on the way:  ref;   www.pokrov-seattle.org
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« Reply #55 on: September 11, 2005, 08:39:39 PM »

Back in Ohio in my home parish, we have at least 15 parishioners directly from Africa, who are of Eritrean or Ethiopian stock.

Regarding Americans descended from Africans, we have at least four, one of whom is a past Parish Council member. One elderly African-American lady is steadily bringing her grandchild and others to church, so there may be some growth there.

Here at school, we have had several priests from Kenya, of which one is still here (another is on a long term substitution in the Midwest). We have on African-American convert who is a seminarian, and one Coptic Priest whom I do not yet know his name but I have seen him around here.
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« Reply #56 on: September 12, 2005, 02:04:58 PM »

South Serb 99, wow you are correct..are you psychic or something?

I have magic powers that I rarely discuss! LOL  Grin

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St. Sava is where we went to perform in their dance hall. They got a community hall and its just like stepping back in time 60 years ago to an old Serbian town during a feast. its really nifty. I've met that priest you are talking about. He came and did liturgy with our priest.

Been there, done that!  Wink

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aTim Hortons (in case you forgot that is a coffe shop named after a popular Canadian hockey player...man i luv hockey its a shame its not on tv nemore)

The fact that you think you had to explain this, is near blasphemy.  I may live in the good ole USA, it is still "GO LEAFS GO" in my house!!!

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A block south exactly i beleive the antiochians are renting a protestant church and their liturgy is at 5 pm. We go sometimes.

It's amazing.  So many parishes struggling in T.O., on the other hand, the Macedonians are building church after church.  Where do they get the money?
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« Reply #57 on: September 12, 2005, 04:39:58 PM »

OCA:

On a typical Sunday, we'll have around 50 Eritreans (including children).  On Pascha, this number is probably closer to 100-150.

The main deacon (Protodeacon?) at Holy Trinity in Chicago (Archbishop Job's parish) is African American.  I think his name is Alexis Washington.  There is a video of the journey of the Kazan Icon which has a few interview segments with him.  He is very deaconly with his powerful voice.

I know an African American guy who is a member of a sister OCA parish who sometimes visits mine (will probably be there next week for our food festival).
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« Reply #58 on: September 12, 2005, 08:43:24 PM »

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The main deacon (Protodeacon?) at Holy Trinity in Chicago (Archbishop Job's parish) is African American.  I think his name is Alexis Washington.  There is a video of the journey of the Kazan Icon which has a few interview segments with him.  He is very deaconly with his powerful voice.

The last time I saw Fr. Deacon Alexis he told me that he was going to be leaving Holy Trinity Cathedral and would be moving to Arizona to be closer to his family. This was several months ago, so I am guessing that he has already left - unless circumstances changed.

Just thought I'd let you know.  Smiley

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« Reply #59 on: October 17, 2005, 06:01:55 AM »

Sorry to rehash an old thread, but I've been real busy of late and have been meaning to come back to respond to some of the follow up post since I posted here last.

GiC stated:
Quote
Though I don't purport to be an Expert on the EOC, the little I do know about the problems in Ben Lomond would make the title of 'Eastern-Rite Protestant' more than fitting. But with that said, I won't paint them all with such a broad brush, perhaps the other former EOC parishes have become Orthodox than the majority of the Ben Lomond sect. 

Alright, how much you wanna bet that there have been way more problems with 'ethnic' priest, especially coming out of St. Vlad's that have been disciplined in some manner or another? I can't help but notice and hearing about so and so priest was disciplined this month or removed from his parish because of some misconduct, most of the time it's not 'convert' priest tearing up their parishes. Also, why do the big shots coming out of these places like St. Vlads last like an average of 5 years? You never hear of that happening to convert priest for the most part, they seem to stick around for the long haul. The typical response I hear all the time from people criticizing converts is the Ben Lomond debacle, but that's small in comparison to what I stated above. Another OCA parish just closed down in Kansas City, we received many good icons from them. My priest said something recently about these 'problem' priest that caught my interest. People can spend years and years building up a church, but one bad priest can almost literally destroy a parish overnight by misconduct. It also doesn't help if your hierarchs have no vision for the Church in America, thus the declining numbers we are seeing. (Although I do really love my Archbishop Job... Cool)

Southserb99 stated:
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OB & Nacho,

    I've been thinking about this thread for a bit and I was curious about something.  OB mentioned that he knows some "ethnics" that would up and leave his parish if say there was a "Greek", "Russian" or "Serbian" Orthodox Church accessible to them.

     My question is.... are you more offended that they would leave your "American" Church for their  "ethnic" Church or are you offended that they are "parish hopping" (for lack of a better phrase).

     Is it that you could possibly be tainted with "American Phyletism" as some "ethnics" are tainted?  Please don't take this as an accusation, but more so an inquiry or observation.

     I know many in my ethnic community (Serbs) who put there ethnicity WAY ahead of their faith.  I've never considered myself a part of that group, although to be completely honest with you, I would say that I feel Orthodox first, Serbian second, American third.

     That might stem from the close ties between being raised Serbian Orthodox, but whatever the reason, I'd be lying if I didn't admit that I've always felt more comfortable in a group of Serbian Orthodox Christians, than say a group of WASPs. 

     Now something tells me, both OB and Nacho (and maybe many others) would probably have a problem with how I feel.  If so, I think it probably has more to do with personal American Nationalism, which to me, is akin to the "ethnic" matters they speak about. 


SouthSerb99, thanks for your response & I apologize for this late one in return. The problem I have with some of the 'ethnics' are the same problems I have with protestants. When I hear that some people in our parish would leave in a heartbeat if a Greek or Russian Church opened down the street is disturbing to me. I myself would prefer to be Antiochian, but there's no way in hell I would leave my OCA parish if an Antiochian Church opened down the street. I think a big part of being Orthodox is commitment to your priest and church family which is something foreign to the protestant world. There are people I run across of different ethnic backgrounds that simply won't come to the only Orthodox Church in our area because it's not "their people's" church, so they rather not attend at all.... Roll Eyes On a side note, I always loved Serbian iconography & Church's. The most beautiful Orthodox Church I have ever been in was the Serbian Church in Sacramento where I used to live. The people were great also. OB was just there the other week and took a bunch of pictures. We are planning on building and Orthodox temple within the next 5 years and are favoring a cross between byzantine and Slavic influences in the architecture.

Mor Ephrem stated:
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There's more to ethnic than Serbian and Greek, and there's more to ethnic than what you find at "a  few different parishes".  If numbers are declining in the former communities, that's one thing, but it's quite a leap to suggest that applies to ethnics generally.  The Indian Church in this country has seen considerable growth, and we've only been here since the 1970's.  I think the same could be said about the Copts.   

I agree, my experience is mostly among the slavic groups and the Greeks. I don't know much about the Indian Church at all, so you are probably right in what you are saying. I just hope that enough immigrants are coming from India in order to sustain your Church going population unless you are doing some kind of outreach outside your community. It's a different story for example among the Greeks. You can walk into any Greek Church and see a sea of gray hair. Allot of the younger people simply aren't that interested in attending church having experienced this first hand when I dated a Greek girl for a few years. I would think it would be hard for some of these Church's to keep their doors open down the road unless they do something to keep the younger generations (Liturgy in English is a good start) interested or do some evangelical outreach in the greater community.

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Define "most basic things".  The theological formation of cradle Orthodox is often no more than what they hear at Liturgy and Sunday School in their youth.  They don't have Clark Carlton, Peter Gilquist, Alexander Schmemann, etc. on their shelves, let alone time to read them.  Heck, probably many don't feel they have the intellectual capacity or enough of a command of the English language to grasp some of that stuff.  I know several like that.  They can't explain how the Trinity is one ousia and three hypostases, but they live the Orthodox life in spite of that.   


Well, it would be good if most Orthodox knew just the most fundamental tenets of the faith. Afterall, we our the true faith! Just look at all the heretics that are ready with an "apologia" themselves that Paul himself said we all should have in order to defend the faith. What good is it being Orthodox if we don't really know what we are worshipping for? I agree with you to the extent that mere 'facts' does nothing for our salvation and it's the heart God looks at, but at the same time it's good to know atleast a little bit so we can adequately explain it to heretics or inquirers.

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In the entire history of the Church, people who did not receive the Eucharist often did so because they felt themselves unworthy.  Did this fact not show up in your post-conversion research?  Why do you assume it is because they think they're "too good"?  I think this reveals your bias against ethnic Orthodox and the superiority with which you endow converts.  I know people who don't receive more than once or twice a year, but when they do, it is with full preparation, and they receive It with greater spiritual benefit than I who receive at every Liturgy. 


Yes, I have heard many people say this in which I respond, " So, does that you mean you also don't want to have relations with your spouse accept once or twice a year because you don't want to take him/her for granted? " What's the difference between that & Eucharist? It doesn't make sense for anyone to seperate themselves from Christ in abstaining from the Eucharist that long. I guess I can understand that some people take it that seriously, but on the other hand Christ commanded that everytime we gather together to break bread & drink wine in remembrance of him.

Quote
since this is a "free for all" there is one more thing interesting that I'd like to add about our very large non-orthodox CIS immigrant groups in the Seattle area.  About 2 years ago one of these Slavic pentecostal churches in Tacoma either just built or renovated their large building with the addition of a golden onion dome and cross - article didn't say or imply 3-bar cross.  Well an opposition group in the church took it upon themselves to destroy the dome and cross and were arrested.  Their defense was that the church had no right to display the "hated" symbol of oppression from their homeland, i.e. a Russian if not Orthodox appearing dome and cross.  I'm telling you, in my travel around the area I know of at least 4 or 5 of these big, big pentecostal churches with signs in Russian outside just like the American non-denominational churches with big meeting halls, classroom and recreation fascilities and large parking lots.  If I go to one of our churches downtown I have to hope to find a parking spot on a nearby street.  I wonder if these people, mostly very simple working types, were lower class people in the Europe who were proselytised in Russia before they came here or what?  Anyone else noticed this in their areas?


There is a problem with all these 'slavic' protestant type church's you speak of. I have come across many myself and I'm amazed at the ignorance they display towards the Orthodox Church. I have heard many of them associate the Orthodox Church with being "communist" or in bed with dicatator so & so. Many will also say that the priest are bad (which means they smoke & drink which makes them evil  Grin), or they say stupid things like the Orthodox sleep around allot, drink & are not good Christians. Better yet is that the Orthodox are idolaters... Roll Eyes I don't know where they get such silly things, it must be the idiots in some of the protestant deneminations feeding them such BS. The thing I find humerous are that these same 'protestant' communities have had problems with their own people staying clean so to speak. I even have seen one of these churches build a fence around the parking lot because they were having problems with their own youth stealing cars from the parking lot....but oh no those Orthodox people are of the devil........ Roll Eyes Just look at the strife & turmoil in these ethnic protestant churches compared to a humble and meek spirit found amongst those in any Orthodox parish. It's funny because I have come to know an 'ethnic' protestant family that have started to attend our parish recently. I really sense they are fed up with the 'ethnic protestants' they have been around and the constant divisions occurring and it's apparent they are trying to escape that. It's weird because they are really apprehensive about anything Orthodox and have stated some of the BS I have heard others like them say about Orthodoxy, but at the same time God may be working on their hearts because they keep showing up for Liturgy despite their reservations. They have commentented a few times about the meekness of the people they see at our parish and they actually come to worship and not to be seen!

Elisha said:
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One last polemical comment:
I got the notion from some of these Antiochian friends that ANY non-English is inappropriate - as if it's too hard for them to learn Lord Have Mercy and a couple hymns in another language!   I wanted to criticize them for not knowing a few of those words in Arabic, but resisted.
 

Well, why should they? We are in America, not Lebanon. What were all these people suppossed to do in the late 80's & early 90's? It's easy to to say they should just go to the Greek Church, but what's the point if you don't understand what's going on? Also, it wasn't that long ago where it would have been difficult for that amount of converts to just attend ethnic parish's. I don't think the ethnics would have welcomed them in the first place and it would have been a bad situation for the Americans. It's good that Met. Philip had the evangelical zeal of the Apostles to take a chance on these people for the bigger purpose of the salvation of their souls, because afterall we know that the apostles never met anyone half way.... Roll Eyes ....they just waited for people to come to them & then told them they had to do so & so if they wanted to be Christian & maybe even learn a different language.... Grin
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« Reply #60 on: October 17, 2005, 08:38:42 AM »

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SouthSerb99, thanks for your response & I apologize for this late one in return. The problem I have with some of the 'ethnics' are the same problems I have with protestants. When I hear that some people in our parish would leave in a heartbeat if a Greek or Russian Church opened down the street is disturbing to me. I myself would prefer to be Antiochian, but there's no way in hell I would leave my OCA parish if an Antiochian Church opened down the street. I think a big part of being Orthodox is commitment to your priest and church family which is something foreign to the protestant world. There are people I run across of different ethnic backgrounds that simply won't come to the only Orthodox Church in our area because it's not "their people's" church, so they rather not attend at all.... Roll Eyes On a side note, I always loved Serbian iconography & Church's. The most beautiful Orthodox Church I have ever been in was the Serbian Church in Sacramento where I used to live. The people were great also. OB was just there the other week and took a bunch of pictures. We are planning on building and Orthodox temple within the next 5 years and are favoring a cross between byzantine and Slavic influences in the architecture.


Thank you for responding.  I think everything you said above is fair.  I agree with you and think it would be terribly sad for a person of any ethnicity to stay away from an Orthodox Church because it wasn't of their ethnic flavor.  I might be generalizing here, but I worry that sometimes the masses go to Church as a social activity (as their primary reason).  Don't get me wrong, I love the post-liturgy social aspects of my Church, however, that is not my reason for attending.
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« Reply #61 on: October 17, 2005, 12:08:30 PM »

Sorry to rehash an old thread, but I've been real busy of late and have been meaning to come back to respond to some of the follow up post since I posted here last.
The only thing to be sorry about is that you were away this board for so long. Wink

Elisha said:
Well, why should they? We are in America, not Lebanon. What were all these people suppossed to do in the late 80's & early 90's? It's easy to to say they should just go to the Greek Church, but what's the point if you don't understand what's going on? Also, it wasn't that long ago where it would have been difficult for that amount of converts to just attend ethnic parish's. I don't think the ethnics would have welcomed them in the first place and it would have been a bad situation for the Americans. It's good that Met. Philip had the evangelical zeal of the Apostles to take a chance on these people for the bigger purpose of the salvation of their souls, because afterall we know that the apostles never met anyone half way.... Roll Eyes ....they just waited for people to come to them & then told them they had to do so & so if they wanted to be Christian & maybe even learn a different language.... Grin
How about out of respect for the 'ethnic' culture that decided to take a chance on them?  How about to be more pastoral towards those (of Arab/Lebanese/etc. descent) in their parish?  Again, I'm not talking a lot -  just a couple of prayers, 'Lord Have Mercy's' and maybe a couple of hymns - a little at a time.  If their own bishop is suggesting it to the clergy, then maybe he might actually know something about being a pastor that those smart convert clergy don't.  Something tells me that a lot of these convert clergy haven't travelled out of the country before on any kinds of tourist-type trips.  As I said before, a little effort will go a long ways with someone of a different culture.  The recent past of the 80's to early 90's has nothing to do with it.  I'm talking about now, over a decade later, where you are now mixing 'ethnic' parishes with converts and convert priests and vice versa.

Btw, I sang in that Serbian church in a concert recently.  It is definitely one of the most beautiful churches I've been in.  And please answer my PMs too.  Thanks.
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« Reply #62 on: October 20, 2005, 02:41:18 AM »

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The only thing to be sorry about is that you were away this board for so long.

Hehe.....thanks man.. Grin

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How about out of respect for the 'ethnic' culture that decided to take a chance on them?ÂÂ  How about to be more pastoral towards those (of Arab/Lebanese/etc. descent) in their parish?ÂÂ  Again, I'm not talking a lot -ÂÂ  just a couple of prayers, 'Lord Have Mercy's' and maybe a couple of hymns - a little at a time.ÂÂ  If their own bishop is suggesting it to the clergy, then maybe he might actually know something about being a pastor that those smart convert clergy don't.ÂÂ  Something tells me that a lot of these convert clergy haven't travelled out of the country before on any kinds of tourist-type trips.ÂÂ  As I said before, a little effort will go a long ways with someone of a different culture.ÂÂ  The recent past of the 80's to early 90's has nothing to do with it.ÂÂ  I'm talking about now, over a decade later, where you are now mixing 'ethnic' parishes with converts and convert priests and vice versa.

I think I can agree with you on that. The only problem I see with trying to have certain parts of the liturgy in a foreign language is that you may offend some people if say you don't do anything in thier language. We have people at my parish from all kinds of backgrounds, so I wouldn't know how you would begin to implement something like that without offending someone. I'm sure Met. Herman would be shocked if he walked into our pairsh and discovered it was English all the way through the Liturgy, but so far it has worked out great and the ethnics seem to be just fine with it also.

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Btw, I sang in that Serbian church in a concert recently.ÂÂ  It is definitely one of the most beautiful churches I've been in.ÂÂ  And please answer my PMs too.ÂÂ  Thanks.

Wow, I now what you mean. I feel like I'm in heaven when I walk into that place. It really is breathtaking. In fact, I'll post some pictures so everyone else can get a glimpse of it also even though the pictures I got from OB don't do it justice.

Quote
Thank you for responding.ÂÂ  I think everything you said above is fair.ÂÂ  I agree with you and think it would be terribly sad for a person of any ethnicity to stay away from an Orthodox Church because it wasn't of their ethnic flavor.ÂÂ  I might be generalizing here, but I worry that sometimes the masses go to Church as a social activity (as their primary reason).ÂÂ  Don't get me wrong, I love the post-liturgy social aspects of my Church, however, that is not my reason for attending.

Thanks Southserb! I think the problem we have as Orthodox is that our faith is probably the easiest the become 'ritualist' as compared to being Christian. I heard a priest say once that don't think for one moment that Orthodox don't have their 'idols' also. I think sometimes even the best of us forget that we are worshipping before the alter of heaven when we step into Church. I also wonder about people that come in late to the Liturgy constantly, but see fit to stay awhile for the social activities afterwards. What are they really coming for?ÂÂ  Huh



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« Reply #63 on: October 20, 2005, 02:47:15 AM »

Well, looks like I won't be posting those pictures.....the file size is too large... Huh  Anyone know a way to get around that?
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« Reply #64 on: October 20, 2005, 08:19:38 AM »

You can open the pics with the "paint" program and go to "image", then "stretch/skew" and change the "stretch" percentages to an appropriate size.  Than "save as" so you will keep the original and save the new one with a new name.  That should do it.
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« Reply #65 on: October 20, 2005, 12:28:30 PM »

I think I can agree with you on that. The only problem I see with trying to have certain parts of the liturgy in a foreign language is that you may offend some people if say you don't do anything in thier language. We have people at my parish from all kinds of backgrounds, so I wouldn't know how you would begin to implement something like that without offending someone. I'm sure Met. Herman would be shocked if he walked into our pairsh and discovered it was English all the way through the Liturgy, but so far it has worked out great and the ethnics seem to be just fine with it also.
I don't think His Beatitude would - unless you know him better than I.  He'd probably appreciate a few words in Slavonic (per the examples I gave), but I doubt he'd be offended/shocked.

Again, a lot of this depends on the makeup of the individual parish.  If a priest is an American and he is placed in a high percentage Arab/Russian parish, there's no reason he can't try and learn a few prayers in another language.  Why would the people be offended?  Wouldn't they appreciate the attempt, no matter how small?  I'm just saying to give a little effort.

Wow, I now what you mean. I feel like I'm in heaven when I walk into that place. It really is breathtaking. In fact, I'll post some pictures so everyone else can get a glimpse of it also even though the pictures I got from OB don't do it justice.
Please do!
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« Reply #66 on: October 20, 2005, 02:05:27 PM »

Nacho,

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Well, looks like I won't be posting those pictures.....the file size is too large...   Anyone know a way to get around that?

I would recommend getting Irfanview. As far as your problem goes, it allows you to both resize pics and also convert them to other types (e.g., turn a bmp into a jpg). I've been using it for 5 or 6 years now and love it. Smiley
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« Reply #67 on: October 21, 2005, 03:53:15 AM »

OK......this will be a test pic..... GrinÂÂ  Just want to make sure they look good before I spend the time reformatting them all in Microsoft Paint. More to come soon.....Wooohoo, look at those Serbs dance!! Cheesy
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« Reply #68 on: October 21, 2005, 04:16:09 AM »

Alright......we start off in the bar area at the Church with OB (Orthodoxbagpiper) taking a few shots of slivovitch & downing a few tasty serbian beers.... Smiley That slivovitch sure is great stuff also. A few friends came over after the Liturgy last week and we downed a bottle of that. It's best chilled, or shaken up and strained into a martini glass. I actually cut up some plums and  put them into the martini glass. Makes for a fun time... Tongue
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« Reply #69 on: October 21, 2005, 04:18:13 AM »

and some more of the interior of the church, which in my opinion these pics don't do it justice.....
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« Reply #70 on: October 21, 2005, 04:26:24 AM »

and some more.... Cheesy  By the way, the iconostasis came from Serbia & all done by hand. The icons on all the walls took about 8 years to complete. They were written by a 26 year old guy who was considering becoming a monk and spent some time on Athos. The big chandelier hanging is all hand crafted copper I think also from Serbia. They have two huge metal doors on the outside of the church that are also like this with icons written into them. I really love Serbian iconography. It is quite distinct from that of Russian iconography and they incorparate allot more vivid colors & allot of shades of blue if you notice. It really makes you feel like you are almost in heaven.
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« Reply #71 on: October 21, 2005, 08:27:05 AM »

Nacho,

    Fantastic pics.  Which Church is this and where?  It has got to be one of the most beautiful Serbian Churches I've ever seen.  Although my current Parish is nice, it is nothing like those pics.  I've seen a Serbian Orthodox Church in Michigan, which was also gorgeous, however, not nearly the beautiful Iconography as the Church you took pics of.

     BTW, easy on the Slivo, otherwise you might regret it for a day (or two) after!   Wink
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« Reply #72 on: October 21, 2005, 04:07:11 PM »

Hey Nacho,

Is that Saint George In Schereville In?
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« Reply #73 on: October 21, 2005, 06:40:15 PM »

Hey Nacho,

Is that Saint George In Schereville In?

It is Holy Assumption in Fair Oaks, CA (eastern Sacramento area).  I sung there with a men's Russian choir (in Slavonic - I was having to learn it on the fly - a daunting task) a month ago.  We stood on the Ambon.
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« Reply #74 on: October 21, 2005, 06:42:57 PM »

And this is inside the altar at my church in Santa Rosa, CA (OCA).

[img="http://www.saintseraphim.com/photos/img/2004/altar3.jpg"][/img]
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« Reply #75 on: October 21, 2005, 07:16:46 PM »

What I love about Orthodoxy:

We have a beatiful church with awesome iconography and we first post pics of the booze at the parish. 

...a dejected Nektarios missing Europe and copious amounts of cheep but still good beer. 
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« Reply #76 on: October 23, 2005, 04:08:37 AM »

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What I love about Orthodoxy:

We have a beatiful church with awesome iconography and we first post pics of the booze at the parish.

LoL....Well, you know the booze always come first, being a bartender my life pretty much revolves around it... Grin Just kidding... Wink Yea, I sure miss that place allot since I moved to the midwest. The people are great also. Next time I go back to Sac I'm going to have to take some pictures of that place. 

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It is Holy Assumption in Fair Oaks, CA (eastern Sacramento area).  I sung there with a men's Russian choir (in Slavonic - I was having to learn it on the fly - a daunting task) a month ago.  We stood on the Ambon.

Thanks Elisha for posting that information. I found another picture on the net of the outside of the temple so that all can see.
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« Reply #77 on: October 26, 2005, 06:54:12 PM »

Howdy Y'all,

That Serbian Orthodox church that I went to in Sacramento is hands down the most beautiful Orthodox church that I have ever been to in my life!!!!!ÂÂ  It felt like I was stepping into heaven. The whole church, as you can see in the pictures, was covered with Icons from top to bottom!!! I love the coloring as well.

The only thing I didin't like was the pews, but the beauty of the place made up for it.

The Serbian festival was my first introduction to slivovich (The Romanians call it Tuica......My wife is Romanian so I will hear on out refer to plum brandy as Tuica Cheesy)ÂÂ  That stuff has quite a kick; I can see how it has helped countless people get through the cold winters in the balkins.

Any Romanian Orthodox on the board here?Huh? I would be interested in striking up a conversation with you!!!

Noroc!!!

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« Reply #78 on: October 26, 2005, 08:56:25 PM »

James is the resident Romanian Orthodox, but I don't see him online too much anymore.
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« Reply #79 on: October 26, 2005, 09:43:08 PM »

Nacho,
like the new avatar.

More to the (external) architecture of the church....anyone know what style red brick came from?  I'm guessing that criss-crossing red bricks like that has no Eastern European roots, but western europe/England...which (if I'm right) makes the building all the more interesting.  It proves that architectural "fusions" (as in the multitude of food fusions that happen) can work really well.
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« Reply #80 on: October 28, 2005, 04:02:02 AM »

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Nacho,
like the new avatar.

More to the (external) architecture of the church....anyone know what style red brick came from?  I'm guessing that criss-crossing red bricks like that has no Eastern European roots, but western europe/England...which (if I'm right) makes the building all the more interesting.  It proves that architectural "fusions" (as in the multitude of food fusions that happen) can work really well.

Thanks Elisha....... Cheesy

Not sure about the architecture of the outside, but it's quite unique I guess for an Orthodox Church. I'm wondering if this has been done before also?

Quote
The Serbian festival was my first introduction to slivovich (The Romanians call it Tuica......My wife is Romanian so I will hear on out refer to plum brandy as Tuica Cheesy)  That stuff has quite a kick; I can see how it has helped countless people get through the cold winters in the balkins.

Sup' OB.......I'm sure we will have many more evenings of fun with the slivo.... Wink That stuff sure is yummy... Grin
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