Author Topic: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew  (Read 3459 times)

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Offline Ilyin

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So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« on: October 29, 2016, 03:13:34 PM »
"“God is a God of peace and is well-pleased with the peaceful co-existence of men and, of course, of those who worship Him independent of the differences, which exist in regards to faith between the three great monotheistic religions.”

"Brothers and sisters, the watchword of the Holy Orthodox Church today is unity. We are learning unity within our own house; we must pursue unity with all the children of God... Roman Catholics and Orthodox, Protestants and Jews, Muslims and Hindus, Buddhists and Confucians: the time has come not only for rapprochement, but also for an alliance and joint effort... We have within our grasp the vision of the Psalmist: “Behold, how good and how pleasing it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!” We pledge to you today that the Orthodox Christian Church will do everything in her power to fulfill that vision"

""In reference to this subject, we remind all that every form of proselytism....is absolutely condemned by the Orthodox"

"“Of course God is but one, independently of the name we give him: Allah or Yahweh and so on. God is one; and we are his children … .”

""Since in as much as one Church recognises another Church to be a repository of divine grace, capable of granting salvation, ... the attempt to break believers off from the one and attach them to the other is impossible"?

"In the ecumenical enterprise, without an unconditional acceptance of the other’s right to his or her own self-understanding, dialogue becomes monologue, a one-sided soliloquy of fear mongering and prejudice. But this does not mean acceptance of anything at every turn. All ecumenical partners must be willing to allow for difference, and to face difference without fear, knowing that the God who made us different loves us all the same."

This is only a small selection of many such statements the combined weight of which implies to me a deeply held belief that all religions are essentially one - the sort of Deism popular among French Catholic bishops in the eighteenth century. Can anyone here convince me otherwise?



Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2016, 03:16:32 PM »
Sources?

If you read much of HAH's sermons and writings, you'll quickly realize that he is one to incorporate great amounts of Scripture and theology. I really don't think you'd ever be able to make a convincing case that HAH is a "Deist." ::)
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Re: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2016, 03:18:20 PM »
Let's play Bash a Patriarch again!
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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2016, 05:36:28 AM »
Sources?

If you read much of HAH's sermons and writings, you'll quickly realize that he is one to incorporate great amounts of Scripture and theology. I really don't think you'd ever be able to make a convincing case that HAH is a "Deist." ::)

first quote:

Message of Bartholomew to Muslims” (for Ramadan); Nikos Papadimitriou, Flash.gr news , Greece, dated Dec. 16, 2001; published in the Feb. 22, 2002 edition of Flash.gr news Ste^n Ellada (Ellada [Greece] section] http://greece.flash.gr//soon/2001/12/16/14339id/.

second quote:

ADDRESS BY THE ECUMENICAL PATRIARCH BARTHOLOMEW SIXTH WORLD ASSEMBLY OF RELIGION AND PEACE RIVA DEL GARDA, ITALY - NOVEMBER 4, 1994, 3:00 PM; www.patriarchate.org/SPEECHES/1994/NOV_4-World_Assembly.html

third quote:
Book

Speaking the Truth in Love

Theological and Spiritual Exhortations of Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew

by  Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew

fourth quote:

Charlie Rose Interview with Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew

fifth quote:

Patriarch Bartholomew address to the Roman Catholic Delegation on the occasion of the feast day of Saint Andrew on November 30 1998

sixth quote:

Patriarch Bartholomew interview with Catholic News Services, May 9th 2014

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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2016, 06:36:03 AM »
I do not know what sort of deism was popular in 18th century French bishops. But I do not think he is a deist, or a sort of deist. How do you get that idea? Doesn't Deism involve believing that God no longer interferes with mankind? Or perhaps that is a specific strand?

I think instead all those quotes show is that he is not convinced that the "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church" contains by itself the Truth.

And what surprise is this? Patriarch Athenagoras, who Archimandrite Bartholomew was once under, said:

"We are deceived and we sin, if we think that the Orthodox faith came down from Heaven and that all (other) creeds are unworthy. Three hundred million people have chosen Islam in order to reach their god, and other hundreds of millions are Protestants, Catholics, and Buddhists. The goal of every religion is to improve mankind” Orthodox Word No. 94 December 1968



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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2016, 07:22:01 AM »
Let's play Bash a Patriarch again!

Sadly the Ecclesiastical Thrones are not immune to error as we can see numerous times in history, and so it is necessary to have an open discussion regarding its past and present occupants and their writings, words, and teachings, since the Orthodox Church does not have that great privilege to have an infallible bishop as the Roman Catholics claim for themselves.

It would not be desirable for faithful to obtain the impression that any one person is infallible, or that a bishop would never ever say anything heretical.


Select which is not like the others:


--

“To sin in respect of the dogmas whether in small or great is the same thing; for the law of God is disregarded in either case”

Saint Tarasius, Patriarch of Constantinople

--

"Let us strive to preserve in our souls sound dogmas"

Saint John Chrysostom, Patriarch of Constantinople

--

"The age of dogma has passed"

Athenagoras "the Great", Patriarch of Constantinople

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Re: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2016, 10:48:50 AM »
Let's play Bash a Patriarch again!

Sadly the Ecclesiastical Thrones are not immune to error as we can see numerous times in history, and so it is necessary to have an open discussion regarding its past and present occupants and their writings, words, and teachings, since the Orthodox Church does not have that great privilege to have an infallible bishop as the Roman Catholics claim for themselves.

It would not be desirable for faithful to obtain the impression that any one person is infallible, or that a bishop would never ever say anything heretical.


Select which is not like the others:


--

“To sin in respect of the dogmas whether in small or great is the same thing; for the law of God is disregarded in either case”

Saint Tarasius, Patriarch of Constantinople

--

"Let us strive to preserve in our souls sound dogmas"

Saint John Chrysostom, Patriarch of Constantinople

--

"The age of dogma has passed"

Athenagoras "the Great", Patriarch of Constantinople

A medicine is poison in the wrong context. The idea that we have a duty to harass hierarchs on the Web for the sake of the Church's humility is sophistical at best. And what is it, besides our own lavish egos, that fits anyone here individually to be "a judge in Israel"?

Raking up scandal and groundlessly accusing are forbidden the Christian.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline eddybear

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Re: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2016, 11:12:59 AM »

Raking up scandal and groundlessly accusing are forbidden the Christian.

Agreed, and the implication that Patriarch Bartholemew is some sort of deist IMO isn't fair.

However, it seems these are genuine quotes that he has said / written over the years, and that is a worrying thing.

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Re: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2016, 11:23:08 AM »
Sources?

If you read much of HAH's sermons and writings, you'll quickly realize that he is one to incorporate great amounts of Scripture and theology. I really don't think you'd ever be able to make a convincing case that HAH is a "Deist." ::)
+++
    I agree.  I see His All Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew trying to live in peace with different religions, but he does not agree with them.

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Re: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2016, 11:57:08 AM »
The idea that we have a duty to harass hierarchs on the Web for the sake of the Church's humility is sophistical at best. And what is it, besides our own lavish egos, that fits anyone here individually to be "a judge in Israel"?

Raking up scandal and groundlessly accusing are forbidden the Christian.

Unless it's directed against the Moscow Patriarchate. 
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Re: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2016, 01:01:40 PM »
The idea that we have a duty to harass hierarchs on the Web for the sake of the Church's humility is sophistical at best. And what is it, besides our own lavish egos, that fits anyone here individually to be "a judge in Israel"?

Raking up scandal and groundlessly accusing are forbidden the Christian.

Unless it's directed against the Moscow Patriarchate.

He has a difficult role, and another may have done better, but, no, I don't attack him either.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2016, 01:05:58 PM »
The idea that we have a duty to harass hierarchs on the Web for the sake of the Church's humility is sophistical at best. And what is it, besides our own lavish egos, that fits anyone here individually to be "a judge in Israel"?

Raking up scandal and groundlessly accusing are forbidden the Christian.

Unless it's directed against the Moscow Patriarchate.

He has a difficult role, and another may have done better, but, no, I don't attack him either.

I didn't have a particular OCNet target in mind.  Just a noticeable trend.  ;)
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Re: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2016, 01:57:41 PM »
I'm sorry I'm not going back to the dark ages.Jesus went against pharisees and hypocrites.If Patriarch Bartholomew doesn't want to be accused then he should control himself and his statements.He is a person in authority and power and we have the right to criticize him.Besides most in OC criticize Pope all the time but when it comes to our Patriarch then you all remember how sinful it is to judge..

Offline Rohzek

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Re: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2016, 02:29:04 PM »
Let's play Bash a Patriarch again!

Sadly the Ecclesiastical Thrones are not immune to error as we can see numerous times in history, and so it is necessary to have an open discussion regarding its past and present occupants and their writings, words, and teachings, since the Orthodox Church does not have that great privilege to have an infallible bishop as the Roman Catholics claim for themselves.

It would not be desirable for faithful to obtain the impression that any one person is infallible, or that a bishop would never ever say anything heretical.


Select which is not like the others:


--

“To sin in respect of the dogmas whether in small or great is the same thing; for the law of God is disregarded in either case”

Saint Tarasius, Patriarch of Constantinople

--

"Let us strive to preserve in our souls sound dogmas"

Saint John Chrysostom, Patriarch of Constantinople

--

"The age of dogma has passed"

Athenagoras "the Great", Patriarch of Constantinople

A medicine is poison in the wrong context. The idea that we have a duty to harass hierarchs on the Web for the sake of the Church's humility is sophistical at best. And what is it, besides our own lavish egos, that fits anyone here individually to be "a judge in Israel"?

Raking up scandal and groundlessly accusing are forbidden the Christian.

Now I HAVE to bash the EP. Statements 3 and 5 in the OP are clearly dumb. In statement 3, the EP is just mad because he knows that EO has a serious problem in preaching the gospel. The problem of ethnocentrism still plays too much of a role in EO. As a result, rather than fix the problem, he just wants to make everyone abide by his rules, which is not to preach what they believe to be correct to others (ie those outside the community). That's an abrogation of one of the most important duties of the Church. Patriarch Bartholomew is just mad cuz he's bad.

As for statement 5, pretty much the same drivel. Drivel...drivel, drivel, drivel.

Gotta love it though. First, you ask for sources. Then when those are provided, like a pigeon losing at chess, you sanctimoniously strut around knocking over all the pieces while poo pooing on the board, claiming the game never should have occurred in the first place.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2016, 02:31:44 PM by Rohzek »
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Offline biro

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Re: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2016, 03:32:35 PM »
I'm sorry I'm not going back to the dark ages.Jesus went against pharisees and hypocrites.If Patriarch Bartholomew doesn't want to be accused then he should control himself and his statements.He is a person in authority and power and we have the right to criticize him.Besides most in OC criticize Pope all the time but when it comes to our Patriarch then you all remember how sinful it is to judge..

We remember how sinful it is to judge, period.
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"Our Lord will *never* stop loving us." - Fr. Michael P.

Offline Rohzek

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Re: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2016, 03:46:08 PM »
I'm sorry I'm not going back to the dark ages.Jesus went against pharisees and hypocrites.If Patriarch Bartholomew doesn't want to be accused then he should control himself and his statements.He is a person in authority and power and we have the right to criticize him.Besides most in OC criticize Pope all the time but when it comes to our Patriarch then you all remember how sinful it is to judge..

We remember how sinful it is to judge, period.

I'm always amazed at the very banal understanding of Matthew 7:1. It's quite amazing really. The Church councils had no problem judging Arius or Caelestius. Nor do we have any problem judging our peers in murder trials, etc. Do you honestly believe our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ put a ban on judging period? Or could it perhaps be that he was making a larger point in Matthew 7:1?
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2016, 04:35:20 PM »
I'm sorry I'm not going back to the dark ages.Jesus went against pharisees and hypocrites.If Patriarch Bartholomew doesn't want to be accused then he should control himself and his statements.He is a person in authority and power and we have the right to criticize him.Besides most in OC criticize Pope all the time but when it comes to our Patriarch then you all remember how sinful it is to judge..

So many contradictions. Pharisees were not known for giving others a pass, and being a hypocrite is refusing to judge oneself, not another. We are not Roman Catholic and, while no one here is calling for attacks on the Pope, if you can't tell we should have a higher regard for our own hierarchs than I am surprised at you. In addition, you pick an odd subject to join in attack if you feel that way about Rome -- Constantinople is known for standing up for the Pope, as Orthodox hierarchs go. Finally, yes we Orthodox rather appreciate the period the humanists dubbed the dark ages; that is kind of what we stand for. Anyway -- so much confusion in one post.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2016, 04:38:00 PM »
I'm sorry I'm not going back to the dark ages.Jesus went against pharisees and hypocrites.If Patriarch Bartholomew doesn't want to be accused then he should control himself and his statements.He is a person in authority and power and we have the right to criticize him.Besides most in OC criticize Pope all the time but when it comes to our Patriarch then you all remember how sinful it is to judge..

We remember how sinful it is to judge, period.

I'm always amazed at the very banal understanding of Matthew 7:1. It's quite amazing really. The Church councils had no problem judging Arius or Caelestius. Nor do we have any problem judging our peers in murder trials, etc. Do you honestly believe our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ put a ban on judging period? Or could it perhaps be that he was making a larger point in Matthew 7:1?

If you think the Ecumenical Councils were just some chaps casting judgment, your understanding of the nature of the Church is fundamentally flawed.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2016, 05:26:35 PM »
I'm sorry I'm not going back to the dark ages.Jesus went against pharisees and hypocrites.If Patriarch Bartholomew doesn't want to be accused then he should control himself and his statements.He is a person in authority and power and we have the right to criticize him.Besides most in OC criticize Pope all the time but when it comes to our Patriarch then you all remember how sinful it is to judge..

We remember how sinful it is to judge, period.
It is sinful to judge persons. Judging ideas is a necessary part of being a Christian.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2016, 05:49:45 PM »
I'm sorry I'm not going back to the dark ages.Jesus went against pharisees and hypocrites.If Patriarch Bartholomew doesn't want to be accused then he should control himself and his statements.He is a person in authority and power and we have the right to criticize him.Besides most in OC criticize Pope all the time but when it comes to our Patriarch then you all remember how sinful it is to judge..

We remember how sinful it is to judge, period.
It is sinful to judge persons. Judging ideas is a necessary part of being a Christian.

If by "judging ideas" you mean in unison with Christian brothers and Fathers holding ideas up to the light of the eternal Church. Most people don't mean that, or anything like that.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2016, 05:54:20 PM »
Let's play Bash a Patriarch again!

You seem to have a tough time separating the man from the ideas he espouses.  Are those ideas off limits from any criticism because merely HAH said them? 
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

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Re: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2016, 06:31:46 PM »
I'm sorry I'm not going back to the dark ages.Jesus went against pharisees and hypocrites.If Patriarch Bartholomew doesn't want to be accused then he should control himself and his statements.He is a person in authority and power and we have the right to criticize him.Besides most in OC criticize Pope all the time but when it comes to our Patriarch then you all remember how sinful it is to judge..

We remember how sinful it is to judge, period.

I'm always amazed at the very banal understanding of Matthew 7:1. It's quite amazing really. The Church councils had no problem judging Arius or Caelestius. Nor do we have any problem judging our peers in murder trials, etc. Do you honestly believe our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ put a ban on judging period? Or could it perhaps be that he was making a larger point in Matthew 7:1?

If you think the Ecumenical Councils were just some chaps casting judgment, your understanding of the nature of the Church is fundamentally flawed.

Porter O'Doran, I hate to break it to you, but I know far more about Orthodoxy than you do presently and probably will continue to know more until my life ends. That could change, but I'm not holding my breath. Let's call a spade a spade. You're an EP fanboy who can't stand any criticism of the EP whatsoever, even it is mild and in love. The fact of the matter is that the Ecumenical Councils judged those men and their ideas. And rather than engage in my point, you casually call into question my Orthodoxy. It's also quite noticeable that you ignored my other good example: a trial by jury. Like I said, you're like a pigeon that ragequits a game of chess.

But if only the problem really was that you're an incessant EP fanboy, with whom dialogue is difficult. There is a far deeper problem, that is more insidious. All you do constantly is tell other people on these forums what they should or should not do, what they should or should not think. I understand that debate is fine. But you don't even think debate should be permitted. You already have the answer: You're right and they are wrong. Period. Furthermore, you find things in their words that they didn't say or intend for you to criticize. Like you just did with me now. I never said the Ecumenical Councils were just some chaps. The only exceptions occur when it comes to priests or clerics on these forums. They can say the exact same thing that either I or another layman says, and all of a sudden you actually listen. But if they aren't in robes, you immediately go after them. That in itself is nothing more than expression of an uncontrollable desire to be a modern-day Pharisee while lacking any capacity for critical thought.

Lastly, no one here criticizes the EP thinking that he reads these forums. We criticize the EP because the ideas he espouses are worth discussing for our own sake. You keep going on and on about egoism. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

Normally, I'd be tempted to post another mocking post, like I initially did. Or even send a pm. But you do this publicly so often that I'm at a loss.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2016, 06:36:46 PM by Rohzek »
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

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Re: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2016, 06:41:59 PM »
Porter O'Doran, I hate to break it to you, but I know far more about Orthodoxy than you do presently and probably will continue to know more until my life ends. That could change, but I'm not holding my breath. Let's call a spade a spade. You're an EP fanboy who can't stand any criticism of the EP whatsoever, even it is mild and in love. The fact of the matter is that the Ecumenical Councils judged those men and their ideas. And rather than engage in my point, you casually call into question my Orthodoxy. It's also quite noticeable that you ignored my other good example: a trial by jury. Like I said, you're like a pigeon that ragequits a game of chess.

But if only the problem really was that you're an incessant EP fanboy, with whom dialogue is difficult. There is a far deeper problem, that is more insidious. All you do constantly is tell other people on these forums what they should or should not do, what they should or should not think. I understand that debate is fine. But you don't even think debate should be permitted. You already have the answer: You're right and they are wrong. Period. Furthermore, you find things in their words that they didn't say or intend for you to criticize. Like you just did with me now. I never said the Ecumenical Councils were just some chaps. The only exceptions occur when it comes to priests or clerics on these forums. They can say the exact same thing that either I or another layman says, and all of a sudden you actually listen. But if they aren't in robes, you immediately go after them. That in itself is nothing more than expression of an uncontrollable desire to be a modern-day Pharisee while lacking any capacity for critical thought.

Lastly, no one here criticizes the EP thinking that he reads these forums. We criticize the EP because the ideas he espouses are worth discussing for our own sake. You keep going on and on about egoism. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

Normally, I'd be tempted to post another mocking post, like I initially did. Or even send a pm. But you do this publicly so often that I'm at a loss.

So much hip hop playing inside my head right now. 
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2016, 12:00:48 AM »
Sit down and drink a glass of water, Rohzek.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2016, 12:23:19 AM »
Sit down and drink a glass of water, Rohzek.

Why anyone would take advise from you is beyond comprehension. As usual, you have provided no substance in anything you've stated in this thread thus far.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 12:29:02 AM by Rohzek »
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

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Re: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2016, 02:34:38 AM »
I'm sorry I'm not going back to the dark ages.Jesus went against pharisees and hypocrites.If Patriarch Bartholomew doesn't want to be accused then he should control himself and his statements.He is a person in authority and power and we have the right to criticize him.Besides most in OC criticize Pope all the time but when it comes to our Patriarch then you all remember how sinful it is to judge..

if you can't tell we should have a higher regard for our own hierarchs than I am surprised at you.
I only talked about Patriarch Bartholomew so don't put plural'hierarchs' in my mouth.I won't bow down to Patriarch Bartholomew because he is not an Hierarch he is a Politician.

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Re: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2016, 02:43:35 AM »
I'm sorry I'm not going back to the dark ages.Jesus went against pharisees and hypocrites.If Patriarch Bartholomew doesn't want to be accused then he should control himself and his statements.He is a person in authority and power and we have the right to criticize him.Besides most in OC criticize Pope all the time but when it comes to our Patriarch then you all remember how sinful it is to judge..

if you can't tell we should have a higher regard for our own hierarchs than I am surprised at you.
I only talked about Patriarch Bartholomew so don't put plural'hierarchs' in my mouth.I won't bow down to Patriarch Bartholomew because he is not an Hierarch he is a Politician.

Every bishop should be a politician and most of them are.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 02:44:28 AM by mike »
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Re: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2016, 02:48:19 AM »
I'm sorry I'm not going back to the dark ages.Jesus went against pharisees and hypocrites.If Patriarch Bartholomew doesn't want to be accused then he should control himself and his statements.He is a person in authority and power and we have the right to criticize him.Besides most in OC criticize Pope all the time but when it comes to our Patriarch then you all remember how sinful it is to judge..

if you can't tell we should have a higher regard for our own hierarchs than I am surprised at you.
I only talked about Patriarch Bartholomew so don't put plural'hierarchs' in my mouth.I won't bow down to Patriarch Bartholomew because he is not an Hierarch he is a Politician.

Every bishop should be a politician and most of them are.
That why so much corruption in religious systems

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Re: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2016, 07:37:59 AM »
Honestly, the OP quotes make some of my Orthodox experiences make more sense.  Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, I'm not smart enough to know.

The impression I got before and get from this, is that it's better for "us" to stick to our own and love one another from a distance.  Yet from wandering back and forth between traditions and cultures, I do see a need to be very delicate with other people in their struggle towards God.  Because what good am I if, after being hurt by loved ones who try to rescue me from idolatry at the first mention of Orthodoxy, I turn around and try to crush their beliefs when they take a different turn?  Yet I'm not a pluralist.  I cannot say, "oh yes, just so."  But I'm hesitant to tell them how wrong (I think) they are because I know how that feels, and how quickly that cuts off communication and relationship.  It seems like an impossibly fine line, and I am probably not fit to walk it.  I don't envy leaders.
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no idea, so there’s that.

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Re: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2016, 09:23:21 AM »
I'm sorry I'm not going back to the dark ages.Jesus went against pharisees and hypocrites.If Patriarch Bartholomew doesn't want to be accused then he should control himself and his statements.He is a person in authority and power and we have the right to criticize him.Besides most in OC criticize Pope all the time but when it comes to our Patriarch then you all remember how sinful it is to judge..

if you can't tell we should have a higher regard for our own hierarchs than I am surprised at you.
I only talked about Patriarch Bartholomew so don't put plural'hierarchs' in my mouth.I won't bow down to Patriarch Bartholomew because he is not an Hierarch he is a Politician.

While such expressions of hatred remain popular, we won't have Christian union in our own circles, much less with others'.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2016, 10:30:56 AM »
Ainnir and Porter.You used the words 'envy' and 'hatred'.Did I say I envy or hate Patriarch Bartholomew?So according to you whenever someone doesn't approve a leader that equals envy or hate.Good one ;D  ;D
 

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Re: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2016, 12:27:08 PM »
I'm sorry I'm not going back to the dark ages.Jesus went against pharisees and hypocrites.If Patriarch Bartholomew doesn't want to be accused then he should control himself and his statements.He is a person in authority and power and we have the right to criticize him.Besides most in OC criticize Pope all the time but when it comes to our Patriarch then you all remember how sinful it is to judge..

if you can't tell we should have a higher regard for our own hierarchs than I am surprised at you.
I only talked about Patriarch Bartholomew so don't put plural'hierarchs' in my mouth.I won't bow down to Patriarch Bartholomew because he is not an Hierarch he is a Politician.

While such expressions of hatred remain popular, we won't have Christian union in our own circles, much less with others'.

Oh look. You keep doing the same thing that I've claimed you do: putting words into other peoples' mouths. If anyone is being hateful, it's you.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline CarolS

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Re: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2016, 01:02:39 PM »
Are there also quotes where the Ecumenical Patriarch espouses the superiority or exceptionalism of the Orthodox Faith?  Does he call it the "One True Faith" as many of our church services do? Does he say that we as Orthodox Christians have the fullness of the Faith?
Perhaps he is just saying what he judges the audience wants to hear as many politicians do? And how is this "rightly dividing the word of truth"?  One truth for this audience - another "truth" elsewhere.
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Re: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2016, 10:38:52 PM »
Oh I didn't mean to imply that supporters envied him specifically.  I say that sincerely; it, like any leadership role, sounds awful to me.  I imagine myself failing miserably in the role and say such a thing.  I'm sorry it came across as an accusation. :-[ 

It's up to him and others to find the line I mentioned on an international scale.  Being that I can't find it with just one relative, I can't fathom addressing millions.
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no idea, so there’s that.

Pray for me, a sinner.

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Re: So-called Inter-Faith Statements by Patriarch Bartholomew
« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2016, 01:21:17 PM »
Are there also quotes where the Ecumenical Patriarch espouses the superiority or exceptionalism of the Orthodox Faith?  Does he call it the "One True Faith" as many of our church services do? Does he say that we as Orthodox Christians have the fullness of the Faith?
Perhaps he is just saying what he judges the audience wants to hear as many politicians do? And how is this "rightly dividing the word of truth"?  One truth for this audience - another "truth" elsewhere.

Beware Netodoxy.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy