OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 18, 2014, 07:46:24 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: The view of Katrina response from Greece  (Read 4911 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« on: September 02, 2005, 09:21:45 AM »

Katrina News from Greece --

The USA is facing one of the greatest crises in their history. The situation in New Orleans, after Katrina's passage, remains chaotic and authorities seem unable to offer any kind of help to the stricken. People are still trapped under the ruins without food and water, bodies are still lying on the streets in plain sight, looters pillage anything in their path and the National Guard is trying in vain to place the situation under control. In an effort to implement order, soldiers serving in Iraq arrived in New Orleans with clear orders to open fire against pillagers. Snipers are embattled on rooftops with their fingers fixed on the trigger. The UN addressed an appeal to the international community for the dispatch of aid in the USA, while in the EU there are conflicting views on the kind of help they should send the USA.

Desperation

EU High Representative for the CFSP Javier Solana stated that Member-States are ready to help the USA by giving oil from their strategic reserves. ÂÂ
However, British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw refuted such a claim, stating the aid will be humanitarian.
 ÃƒÆ’‚  
At the same time, the situation in New Orleans is a true nightmare. Those trapped in the ghost city are living dramatic moments.
Without food or water, they are anxiously waiting for the next bus that will take to Huston's shelter. The living conditions in Superdome are unbearable, while there have also been reports on rapes.


 "National Shame"

The extent of the natural disaster and authorities' weakness to manage the crisis has become a living nightmare for President Bush and his government.
 
ABC speaks of national shame, a phrase used earlier by the head of emergency operations in New Orleans.

"We are disposing huge amounts of money to help he tsunami-stricken areas and yet we cannot get the water out from New Orleans. This is national shame," stressed Terry Ebert.

Translated by Sofia Soulioti
 
-------------------------

The British Press is harshly criticising President Bush for his failure to successfully handle the hurricane Katrina crisis. The Financial Times, Daily Telegraph, Independent and Daily Mail voice their surprise for the weakness of a superpower to deal with a disaster that could prove worse that the September 11 attacks. With extensive stories on the chaos and anarchy dominating in New Orleans, some papers speak of a second failure to manage a crisis following Iraq. On the other hand, French Le Monde feels that the natural disaster caused by Katrina could become an advantage for the White House.

 "Opportunity" to Escape from Iraq

Reporter Eric Leser from Le Monde made an extensive report on the incompetence of the US government to manage the crisis in New Orleans.
As he said, the voices of protest over the National Guard's weakness to manage crises were known from the past.
 ÃƒÆ’‚  
They have been confirmed though from the image of looting and chaos in New Orleans, where authorities cannot place the situation under control, even though 3,500 armed soldiers are in the area since Wednesday.
 
The disaster, stresses Leser, could become an advantage for George Bush. If he could elevate the reconstruction of the states hit by Katrina into a national affair, then he would find a way out of the Iraqi issue, which has seriously affected his popularity.

"Bin Laden Is Probably Laughing"
 
As for French Liberation, images in New Orleans and Mississippi are a sight hard to see for "the absolute champion of security" George Bush.
 ÃƒÆ’‚  
"Even Bin Laden is probably laughing at the weakness of US authorities and army," reads the newspaper among other things.
 
"Surprise" for the Weakness of Mighty USA

In the UK, however, comments for Bush are sharp. " Here is a superpower that can crush at will a tinpot dictatorship - but then becomes so bogged down in the grisly aftermath of war that it finds itself unable to respond anything like adequately to the plight of tens of thousands of its own citizens engulfed by a natural calamity" reads the Daily Mail stressing that " President Bush, his ratings already in free-fall, could pay a high price indeed for his military folly."
 
The Daily Telegraph made similar harsh comments and said in one of its top stories that the image of a superpower humiliated is humiliating itself. It also underlined the inability of federal authorities to offer help to the affected people and their weakness to impose order, noting that new people not only loot unpunished, they also open fire against the National Guard."
 
Articles in the Independent and the Financial Times have moved on the same wavelength. In a story entitled "Anarchy in New Orleans," the Independent refers to failure of the operation to relieve the 200,000 inhabitants, while the Financial Times speak of a disaster worse than the September 11 attacks.

Logged
aurelia
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 588


« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2005, 09:43:51 AM »

So much for our emergency plans...they don't seem to be working.ÂÂ  Of course a lot of the problem is geographical, 20 feet below sea level isnt the best place to live imo.ÂÂ  It isn't all the rescuers' falt either though, the people themselves are seemingly unable to control themselves, which is understandable, but on the other hand I would not be shooting at my potential rescuer.

I've never been a Bush supporter, and after watching how the govt is telling us that its all fine, only 5000 folks are still in the superdome when the mayor says more like 15-25,000, and then the govt going well, maybe we were wrong about that...I have fast been losing an already shakey faith in the govt.  If they have been telling us crap about what is happening here, how much crap are they feeding us about what is happening elsewhere?  I don't argue with "need to know" plicies, but on the other hand, please don't feed us pap.  Either tell us straight or tell us nothing.

I had to turn off the news last night, it was heartbreaking, too much to bear. It's all very depressing.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2005, 09:49:36 AM by aurelia » Logged
ania
Life according to Abe Simpson:
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,097



« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2005, 10:25:43 AM »

I watched, and then me and my non-smoking sister went outside and drank a beer and had several cigs...  It upsets me just thinking about whats going on down there.
And the fact that Bush hasn't even been down there yet!!!  He was right there in NYC after 9-11.  It's been days now.  And the way the recovery & rescue is disorganized..  If we could drop food in Vietnam back in the day, for gosh sakes, why can't we drop our own people water now???
Logged

Now where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn’t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,443



« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2005, 11:10:49 AM »

What hasn't really been said much is that the area around New Orleans and the entire Mississippi coast has been reduced to basically third world conditions. The coastal areas haven't gotten as much press, but the destruction there is much, much, much worse. NOAA has been doing extensive aerial photography (which you can look at here if you have a high speed connection-- the images are gigantic) and large areas simply aren't there anymore. I went looking for the Episcopal church in Pass Christian, for instance, and there isn't even any evidence that there ever was a church there. For that matter, most of Pass Christian is gone. The Mississippi ports are a mess, and the coastal roads are covered in silt or, where they crossed on bridges, gone. New Orleans, by contrast, doesn't look so bad, until you realize that, yeah, the buildings are still there, but everything that isn't a building is water.

There is no infrastructure at all. One city in Mississippi (I forget which): its sewage treatment is just a bunch of big round holes. I haven't heard recently how the power situation is but right after the storm they were reporting that the entire lower third of Mississippi was dark. Roads along the coast are impassible when they even still exist. I've seen areas where the roads are blocked by roofs a half mile or more inland.

The upshot: this is hard. Really hard.
Logged
Stamfordguy
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 127



« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2005, 11:35:12 AM »

We were able to help through the IOCC. Prayers are great but empty bellies respond better to food and water. Every cup of water extended to someone in need is as though we were giving it to the Lord. For those who simply cannot watch, how will you respond to the Lord? We MUST watch. There are thousands of innocent children who are suffering untold misery and we cannot turn away. Surely we must do something, even if it's just a few dollars of aid through the Red Cross or the IOCC. To not do something in my opinion is to commit the sin of omission. To know to do good and to turn away? Read the epistle of James. We MUST do something. It is not an option. Forget the evil doers down there and concentrate on the innocent babies and children who are suffering unbelievably.

I also find it ironic and just a bit hypocritical that when disaster strikes anywhere in the world, the US is first among those to rush aid and support but when the US is hurting where are these other countries with their help? We have a responsibility as Christians to help and not look to lay blame.
Logged
Stamfordguy
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 127



« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2005, 11:39:12 AM »

And something else... while I'm worked up.

To blame the president for this and that is all very well and good. BUT what are YOU doing right now? Honestly! Have YOU done anything of a tangible nature to help in this tragedy? Have you made inquiries and sent even a few dollars to help these people? Or do you just sit back and like the pundits at CNN look to lay blame? It's easy to point a finger but remember that there are fingers pointing back at you. If you know to do good but fail to do so... it is a sin, my brothers and sisters.
Logged
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2005, 11:40:18 AM »

We were able to help through the IOCC. Prayers are great but empty bellies respond better to food and water.

Sending more money is not the answer. The money to buy food and water is available - it is a question of logistics.
Logged
ania
Life according to Abe Simpson:
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,097



« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2005, 11:58:38 AM »

And something else... while I'm worked up.

To blame the president for this and that is all very well and good. BUT what are YOU doing right now? Honestly! Have YOU done anything of a tangible nature to help in this tragedy? Have you made inquiries and sent even a few dollars to help these people? Or do you just sit back and like the pundits at CNN look to lay blame? It's easy to point a finger but remember that there are fingers pointing back at you. If you know to do good but fail to do so... it is a sin, my brothers and sisters.


I'm not blaming Bush, it's not like he can control the weather.  I'm just shocked at the very slow reaction time. 

BTW, my sister and I are considering openning up our un-used bedroom to people who will be relocating here in DC, here are some more places you can donate or help: http://neworleans.craigslist.org/about/help/katrina_aid.html

Logged

Now where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn’t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...
StephenG
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 229


« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2005, 01:23:12 PM »

I was on a British forum and came across some crass comments and replied with some anger and irritation. The terrible events and effects are troubling and terrifying. It could and should be a wake up call. I thought of a combination of a huge tidal surge and an exceptional storm overwhelming storm overwhelming the London Flood Barrier. The scenes from New Orleans remind me just what migh follow.

This terrifying event could and should be a wake up call but I wonder whether in the US or elsewhere it will truly be a wake up call, and will we still build houses, place vital installations and fuel refineries in vunerable areas, against the 'comfort' notion that anything else would be too expensive to justify for a 'might' happen event.

The good I have seen though is the selfless generosity of many Americans only  too willing and able to reach out to a neighbour in need. May God be merciful to those in need and those who have remembered their neighbour!
Logged
Nacho
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: EasternOrthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,482

The face of Corporate America


« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2005, 01:42:38 PM »

OMG...Yea, it's all the governments fault that people didn't leave before Katrina hit and they had ample warning to get the hell out of that area... Roll Eyes Maybe they should take some of the blame themselves for being so careless about themselves and their families knowing a category 5 hurricane was about to hit. By the way, where are all the other countries that constantly scream about American imperialism' whom we have bailed out on many occasions?
Logged

"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."--Mere Christianity
ania
Life according to Abe Simpson:
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,097



« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2005, 02:04:29 PM »

In defense of those who stayed behind...  When the storm hit Florida, it was a Catagory 2, and didn't do more than the usual amount of damage.  I spoke to my best friend who lives north of Miami, right where the storm came ashore, and beyond a few downed trees and no electricity for a few hours, they weren't effected at all. 
The people of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast, who have weathered many storms, might not have paid attention until it was too late to act.  Besides that, not enough transport was provided.   People without cars were stuck.  I'm not going to get into the whole "those people who didn't have enough money for cars" thing.  I know plenty of people who have enough money, but don't need cars.  I'm sure there were lots of those in New Orleans as well. 
People in hospitals and nursing homes couldn't leave either. 
Tourists who's only way out was to fly were not able to, and since most of them probably had never experienced a hurricane before, probably weren't worried until too late. 
I'm sure there were also people who just couldn't afford to leave.  There are sometimes for me when I have maybe $5.00 between the change in my ashtray in my car and what change I can find in the couch coushins and pockets of worn clothing.  I then live on Roman noodles and dig deep into my freezer for any food I might have forgotten about (and hope that people will invite me out for lunch and dinner)  and pray that my car has just enough gas in it until payday.  If I had to evac from DC during such a time, I wouldn't be able to.  I'd be stuck, just like those people.
Granted, there were stupid people and thrillseekers who stayed behind (or even specifically went there to experience it) on purpose.  For them, I don't feel the same amount of pity, but then, they are suffering too, and deserve our prayers as much as anyone else there now.
Logged

Now where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn’t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...
donkeyhotay
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 106

"God, Who provides for all, will not desert us"


« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2005, 03:09:04 PM »

Here is a point that I haven't seen anyone talk about, and it goes straight to the heart of the government trust issue:  For years now,  FEMA has told all of us to always keep a stockpile of three days food and water in case of emergency.  "If you can hold out for three days, we can get to you," they told us.  How many days has it been for New Orleans?

This is such an embarrassment.  I really wouldn't blame any one person, such as the President, but a number of government officials - local, state, and federal - as well as the stupidity and apathy of individual citizens, have conspired to create a crisis that is going to adversely affect each and every one of us.

Metropolitan +Isaiah had this to say about the disaster:

It is a reminder to all of us that tragedies in the world, whether man-made or in nature, are dramatically increasing and that one's life can be taken in the twinkling of an eye.  This is why it is
imperative that we always be prepared and ready to meet unexpected circumstances and events which can affect our lives and our eternal condition.


This is not only a lesson from the perspective of our faith, but a lesson for government at all levels, and even private citizens, that our commission in life is to be of service to each other, and a big part of that is to be prepared for the worse.

« Last Edit: September 02, 2005, 03:09:47 PM by donkeyhotay » Logged

A dog is better than I am, for he has love and does not judge.
-Abba Xanthias
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2005, 05:02:48 PM »

It's a natural disaster, the greatest natural disaster since the turn of the (last) Century. No one's to blame and we dont need to find someone to blame, though I know how we all love to do that. The government was as prepared as can reasonably be expected. Concerning looters and other criminal acts, they're doing the best as is feasible and possible, it's not as though it's possible to call in the Military for anything beyond search and rescue (by Posse Comitatus of 1878). Sometimes we just need to come to the conclusion that no one's to blame, everyone's doing the best they can, and get on with the recovery and then rebuilding.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Veniamin
Fire for Effect!
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the South
Posts: 3,372


St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery


« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2005, 05:22:29 PM »

Concerning looters and other criminal acts, they're doing the best as is feasible and possible, it's not as though it's possible to call in the Military for anything beyond search and rescue (by Posse Comitatus of 1878).

While on active duty by order of a state's governor, the National Guard is not bound by Posse Comitatus.  Federal troops (or National Guard troops on federal active duty by order of the President) are the ones bound by it.
Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great
Fr. David
The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Diocese of the South
Posts: 2,828



WWW
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2005, 05:36:20 PM »

OMG...Yea, it's all the governments fault that people didn't leave before Katrina hit and they had ample warning to get the hell out of that area... Roll Eyes

Read, Nacho; read.ÂÂ  No one's saying it was the government's fault that folks didn't LEAVE; they're saying it's the government's fault that no federal aid in the form of medics, food or water came for FOUR DAYS.

Had this been the case ten years ago you can bet there'd be a firestorm about how "this so-called compassionate, bleeding heart administration can't get their act together to help their suffering countrymen..."ÂÂ  The shoe fits both feet...just because some folks didn't get while the gettin' was good doesn't absolve the administration--or ANY administration, regardless of party--from the responsibility of making a competent and swift response.

Quote
Maybe they should take some of the blame themselves for being so careless about themselves and their families knowing a category 5 hurricane was about to hit.

Well, ania's already dealt with why some couldn't leave.ÂÂ  By your tone, then, I take it that we're not supposed to help them now that what's done is done?ÂÂ  That they should have known better so they got theirs?

Quote
By the way, where are all the other countries that constantly scream about American imperialism' whom we have bailed out on many occasions?

Wow.ÂÂ  Politics even now?ÂÂ  I (seriously!) love how Bush 43 is standing with Clinton and Bush 41 and making this a bipartisan, non-political thing.ÂÂ  As Clinton said, it's not a political thing; it's a human thing.ÂÂ  Bush Jr. has confessed that this has been a botched job.  I can honestly say that, though I am not his biggest fan, I admire him for that.

Now lets get N'awlins some help.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2005, 05:38:24 PM by Pedro » Logged

Priest in the Orthodox Church in America - ordained on March 18, 2012

Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

From Protestant to Orthodox (my conversion story)
Silouan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 818

Bogurodzica dziewica zbaw nas


« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2005, 06:01:17 PM »

The fact that former Presidents Clinton and Bush can get past politics and work for the greater good just makes the petty partisans like Nacho look absolute fools.

If you were to watch some of the news coverage many of those being rescued are handicapped in some way, elderly, have medical conditions.

Many nations have jumped in to help America by loaning equipment or seding funds.ÂÂ  Many countries that are quite poor too.ÂÂ  Ever heard of the widow's mite?

« Last Edit: September 02, 2005, 06:01:50 PM by Silouan » Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2005, 06:18:44 PM »

While on active duty by order of a state's governor, the National Guard is not bound by Posse Comitatus.ÂÂ  Federal troops (or National Guard troops on federal active duty by order of the President) are the ones bound by it.

At which point they would be militia and not military personnel; of course, one cannot criticize the federal government on this account (not that it has been done here, but I have read as much elsewhere), for the governing of the militia is entirely the responsibility of the state. I am not a big fan of the federal government, and there are pleanty of atrocities to lay at their feet (Ruby Ridge, Waco, et cetera), but you cannot criticize them for their response time to this NATURAL Disaster, it is more than reasonable given the scope of the destruction.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Veniamin
Fire for Effect!
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the South
Posts: 3,372


St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery


« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2005, 06:34:15 PM »

At which point they would be militia and not military personnel;

You must be a product of the public education system.

mi·li·tia    n.
An army composed of ordinary citizens rather than professional soldiers.
A military force that is not part of a regular army and is subject to call for service in an emergency.
The whole body of physically fit civilians eligible by law for military service.
Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great
Silouan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 818

Bogurodzica dziewica zbaw nas


« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2005, 06:35:26 PM »

Natural disaster?

The far left has already blamed President Bush for the hurricane citing his enviromental policy creating global warming.  Partisan politics creates some strange people. ÂÂ
Logged
Jennifer
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 1,154


« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2005, 06:42:58 PM »

OMG...Yea, it's all the governments fault that people didn't leave before Katrina hit and they had ample warning to get the hell out of that area... Roll Eyes Maybe they should take some of the blame themselves for being so careless about themselves and their families knowing a category 5 hurricane was about to hit. By the way, where are all the other countries that constantly scream about American imperialism' whom we have bailed out on many occasions?

Now that Nacho's chimed in, those of us who avoid talk radio and Fox "News" like the plague, can find out how this disaster is being 'spun' by the neocons. 

Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2005, 06:58:28 PM »

You must be a product of the public education system.

mi·li·tia  ÃƒÆ’‚  n.
An army composed of ordinary citizens rather than professional soldiers.
A military force that is not part of a regular army and is subject to call for service in an emergency.
The whole body of physically fit civilians eligible by law for military service.


My appologies, I was using the definition as implied by a Section of the United States Code dealing with the issue, and am quite aware that the dictionary definition may be broader:

Quote
10 U.S.C. (United States Code) 375

Sec. 375. Restriction on direct participation by military personnel:

The Secretary of Defense shall prescribe such regulations as may be necessary to ensure that any activity (including the provision of any equipment or facility or the assignment or detail of any personnel) under this chapter does not include or permit direct participation by a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps in a search, seizure, arrest, or other similar activity unless participation in such activity by such member is otherwise authorized by law.

Am I now restricted from using the language of the law in question when referencing said law?
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Silouan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 818

Bogurodzica dziewica zbaw nas


« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2005, 07:22:21 PM »

Perhaps that is the view of talk radio (which I mostly avoid), but for my news coverage I watch mostly Fox but also MSNBC and have not seen it portrayed in the way Nacho presents. 
Logged
suzannes
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 97



« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2005, 07:57:55 PM »

I donated throught IOCC today, and then found out that my new bank has put a hold on my paycheck.  SOOO frustrating.  I hope the donation goes through.
Logged
StephenG
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 229


« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2005, 08:11:06 PM »

From interviews I saw it would appear that many of the very poorest and/or the sick and disabled were the ones who did not leave in large part. Those without their own vehicles and money to go. I suppose that is their fault?

The stories and images were and are heartbreaking. And as someone else has said previous events may have given some, as it turns out, false comfort.

These are your countrymen and women suffering appalling but it is their fault. God forbid we ask questions of politicians and those responsible for flood protection and emergency programmes. It is the poorest, the sick and the disabled who are to blame for their current situation. Am I on a Christian forum or did I slip off onto something else?
Logged
xls
Banned
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 41


« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2005, 03:00:59 AM »

Here is a point that I haven't seen anyone talk about, and it goes straight to the heart of the government trust issue:  For years now,  FEMA has told all of us to always keep a stockpile of three days food and water in case of emergency.  "If you can hold out for three days, we can get to you," they told us.  How many days has it been for New Orleans?

This is such an embarrassment.  I really wouldn't blame any one person, such as the President, but a number of government officials - local, state, and federal - as well as the stupidity and apathy of individual citizens, have conspired to create a crisis that is going to adversely affect each and every one of us.

Metropolitan +Isaiah had this to say about the disaster:

It is a reminder to all of us that tragedies in the world, whether man-made or in nature, are dramatically increasing and that one's life can be taken in the twinkling of an eye.  This is why it is
imperative that we always be prepared and ready to meet unexpected circumstances and events which can affect our lives and our eternal condition.


This is not only a lesson from the perspective of our faith, but a lesson for government at all levels, and even private citizens, that our commission in life is to be of service to each other, and a big part of that is to be prepared for the worse.
I agree.
Logged
Nacho
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: EasternOrthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,482

The face of Corporate America


« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2005, 05:17:44 AM »

Quote
Now that Nacho's chimed in, those of us who avoid talk radio and Fox "News" like the plague, can find out how this disaster is being 'spun' by the neocons. 


Now that Jennifer has 'chimed' in with her own propaganda, let's lay some of the facts out on the table:


Here is an abbreviated timeline of the events this past week, mainly extracted from headlines in Drudge's archives.

August 27 - 28 (Saturday and Sunday) - Katrina approaches New Orleans. People are ordered to evacuate. The Super dome is designated as a shelter for those who cannot leave.

August 29 (Monday)- "NEW ORLEANS SPARED BRUNT OF STORM SURGE; PUMPS DOWN... *" Headlines tell a story of a near miss, and that New Orleans has been spared. Despite considerable destruction, a last minute veer to the east by Katrina is credited for saving New Orleans.

August 30 (Tuesday) The real extent of the damage begins to unfold as the flooded streets of New Orleans seem to get worse. Looting begins, and it is either ignored or abetted by the police. Breaks in the levee system are reported. Later in the day the mayor announces that 80% of the city is flooded. Pumping systems are down and electricity is off. Bush returns to DC to monitor conditions and efforts. Attempts are made to block the growing holes in the levees with 3000-pound sandbags in the evening. Initial reports of a few dead, climb to 100s. A suicide is reported at the superdome.

August 31 - (Wednesday) The real extent of the disaster begins to become apparent. The event is repeatedly called catastrophic in the press. Widespread looting and violence are reported. Evacuations are ordered for all of the shelters, including the Superdome. The Houston Astrodome agrees to accept 25,000 evacuees. Navy ships and maritime rescue teams are ordered to the area. A health emergecy is declared. Estimates of the dead are now in the thousands. Efforts to block levees appear to be futile. The evacuees may not be able to return for months. Bush flies over area and vows to rebuild New Orleans.

September 1 - (Thursday) Gunfire halts the ongoing evauation of the Superdome. Reports of shots aimed at fleeing residents and resuers are also reported. Criticism of Bush and the administration's response already begins. Troops are ordered to New Orleans to stop looting and restore order. Reports of violence in the Superdome are released. A medical convoy is targeted by gunmen. Congress reconvenes and Bush asks for $10 billion in initial relief aid. Many private relief efforts around the country are organized. Clinton and Bush Sr. are aksed to help raise funds. Evacuees from New Orleans begin to arrive at Astrodome. It quickly fills.

September 2 - (Friday) Evacuees originally destined for Astrodome are told to continue on to Dallas because the Astrodome is full. New Orleans mayor, continues his weeklong criticism of everyone from the Army Corps of Engineers to FEMA to the White House. Large caravans of relief arrive in the form of thousands of national guardsmen with food and water, along with emergency vehicles.

Consider the timeline and a few additional facts:

The tragedy in the Southeast is more catastrophic by far than anything FEMA , or any other aid agency for that matter, has had to handle in the United States.

Thousands, beyond those who could not leave, ignored warnings and refused to evacuate the city before the storm.

The governor of Louisana and the mayor of New Orleans appear not to have had a coherent plan for any of the eventualities.

A number of the "unfortunates" in the city looted stores, armed themselves and terrorized neighbors and rescuers, and slowed evauation and the distribution of aid.

The city's infrasturcture was heavily damaged, making rescue and support much more difficult.

Given all of those considerations, please explain to me how anything could have been done any faster or more effectively. I understand the impatience of those who have been suffering, and a little anger on their part is understandable. Also, how are doctors, nurses and rescue workers supposed to help people out when they feel like thier lives are being threated by roving gangs of thugs? The biggest failure occurred at the Local and then State level who should have had a 'worst case' scenario planned out way in advance. The mayor of New Orleans has been an absolute disgrace blaming just about everyone else but himself. Instead, he did nothing, even in the initial stages of looting when the city  could have cracked down on the criminals and maintained control. (Maintaining control is always easier than trying to regain it after it has been totally lost.) And when their failure became evident, they started pointing the finger at the very people, (the Feds,) who insisted on the mandatory evacuation they failed to institute, (what part of "mandatory" didn't they understand as they issued the orders?,) as they let hundreds, if not thousands, of city and school busses sit in parking lots. Next in blame comes the State government, which controls the national guard and it's assets, including all it's vehicles, (both ground and air,) supplies, (such as military rations and water filtration equipment,) and if blame has to be passed farther on, then would come the Federal government, though they've done an admirable job given the conditions of the region. For all of you with hearts breaking about the folks who aren't getting help, have you considered that there are millions of other people all over the region that also need help and rescue? 100,000 square miles have been devestated by this storm.

For those with hearts breaking about the horrid living conditions, why was it impossible for the refugees in the Superdome and Convention Center to take the initiative and help keep the place livable in the first place? Why are these thousands of people unable to clean the bathrooms, pick up garbage, and yes, even move the dead out of the way until they can be removed by authorities? Suffering is inevitable in a disaster of this magnitude, but it was exacerbated severely by people who were unwilling prior to the storm to properly prepare for it, and unwilling after to do a damned thing for themselves afterwards as they wallowed in self pity and waited for others to take care of them. If you're looking for someone to blame for just how desperate their condition has become in just five days, look squarely at the people themselves.

I'm also noticing that the people volunteering to help these folks are coming from OUTSIDE the area. Seems a little odd when there are tens of thousands of able bodies right there that aren't doing much more than sitting around and waiting to begin with. Apparently, the label "victim" carries with it some disabling side effect that makes doing anything for anyone else an impossibility so that people need to come in from hundreds of miles away to shovel food onto a plate in a chow line. Of course I understand that there are many that really do need our help such as the elderly or dire poor, but I see more than plenty that look like they could be helping out with whatever needs to be done.
Logged

"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."--Mere Christianity
StephenG
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 229


« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2005, 08:56:59 AM »

It is difficult when you are surrounded by filth brought by the swirling waters, it is hot, you have no food, no water, no means or materials for keeping clean and no sign of help materialising. And in the midst of this, the strongest, the most aggressive no doubt excaserbated by the heat make it worse. And you are in shock. You have lost everything.

Outsiders start from a different base. And, of course, he who demonstrably has 20/20 vision, ignores my question. What means would the poorest have had. In the circumstances with such a large city being evacuated travel would have overstretched the capacity of every system, road, fuel supply, food en route, accomodation. And the poorest would have had the means, the money and the facilities to do this.

No, my uncharitable friend, I very much doubt they would. And as for your tidy timeline it has all the neatness of hindsight; and little if anything else to recommend it.

What could the authorities and the administration done? Been bettered prepared, not cut back on funding for the works needed to better protect this low lying city.

The difference between you and those reaching out helping is that they are like the good Samaritan but you appear like the Levi passing on the other side of the road.
Logged
Veniamin
Fire for Effect!
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the South
Posts: 3,372


St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery


« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2005, 10:18:01 AM »

In all fairness to the rescuers, there have been plenty of news accounts detailing how they're having to cut their way through to the city with chainsaws because the roads are blocked.  The disaster didn't just strike New Orleans, but hit a huge swath of the region.  It's hard for outside relief to make it in within three days when the devastation begins a hundred miles out.  On the other hand, not being able to predict the future isn't an automatic excuse for the local government's failure to prepare.  You can't prepare for every contingency, but you can prepare for those that are likely.  In New Orleans, the aftermath of a hurricane is pretty darn likely.  The mayor needs to grow a pair, suck up his share of the responsibility, and start being a leader.  He doesn't do that by holding press conferences that simply blast everyone else for not helping.
Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,443



« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2005, 10:30:32 AM »

This is degenerating into American political discussion, but hey, just for once:

Media coverage swung back and forth wildly. Of course, the government is supposed to have better sources of info (you can go to NOAA and see the same aerial shots of the wreckage that the government saw). And of course, whatever you want to say about how difficult the situation turned out to be, one of the jobs of FEMA in particular is to anticipate.

Unfortunately for the Bush administration, they have a bad history here. FEMA has been badly treated in the merger into homeland security, and specific pre-emptive works by the Corps of Engineers were canned by the admnistration. They can't be blamed, per se, for moving the support units of the regular army into the NG, but in practice it's clear that the war in Iraq has hampered the responsiveness of the guard.

In the bigger picture, the administration has a bad record on crisis management, both in anticipation and in the aftermath. And let's face it: Bush is a bad public speaker. If his immediate job is to calm the public down, he is ineffectual.

As for Greece: the CIA factbook describes it as being "slightly smaller than Alabama". OK: so when it comes to it, this disaster is comparable to flooding out or simply levelling most of the habitable portion of Greece. I'm guessing that it's about comparable to the destruction of Minoan civilization by the eruption of Thera. Just as a comparison.
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2005, 10:37:58 AM »

Nacho,
When the institutions of a nation fail, as they sadly did in this case, the populace innevitably loses faith in them. Politically, it is far worse if people lose faith in the institutions than if they lose faith in "the government' (as in, the nebulous concept of 'the government') My childhood was in the 1970's, and that was the prevailing mood then- a sense of lack of faith in the institutions. And this was not the first recent failure of the US institutions to rock people's faith- Abu Graheb was another. You can blame the poor people of New Orleans all you want, the fact is that Katrina blew more away than you realise. And as the repercussions begin (and they will, and will be felt for years), what you have just written will be seen as nothing more than insane ramblings. Mark my words: this shift in your nation's collective conscience means that the days of the right wing nut jobs in the US are numbered since Katrina.....
Bob Dylan, was right after all-  "The answer my friend, is blowin' in the wind."
« Last Edit: September 03, 2005, 10:38:47 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Jennifer
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 1,154


« Reply #30 on: September 03, 2005, 11:02:14 AM »

Now that Jennifer has 'chimed' in with her own propaganda, let's lay some of the facts out on the table:

Now Nacho...."propaganda" isn't the appropriate word to use here.  I don't have my "own propaganda."  And we've had previous discussions about your apparent misunderstanding of the word "fact." 

Quote
Here is an abbreviated timeline of the events this past week, mainly extracted from headlines in Drudge's archives.

These people are responsible for taking advantage of you but you're also responsible for continuing to go to these "news" sources when they appeal to your basest instinct. 

Quote
The governor of Louisana and the mayor of New Orleans appear not to have had a coherent plan for any of the eventualities.

Neither did the federal government which had ample warning that this could occur. 

Quote
A number of the "unfortunates" in the city looted stores, armed themselves and terrorized neighbors and rescuers, and slowed evauation and the distribution of aid.

Why place unfortunates in quotes?  BTW, are you aware that lack of water causes psychotic behavior? 

I didn't read the rest of your post because I don't think you wrote it.  It didn't 'sound' like you.  However, from glancing over it (and that kind of 'garbage' doesn't deserve serious attention) I see all of the many errors of protestant fundamentalism. 
Logged
Augustine
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 565

pray for me, please


WWW
« Reply #31 on: September 03, 2005, 11:18:22 AM »

Nacho,

Quote
OMG...Yea, it's all the governments fault that people didn't leave before Katrina hit and they had ample warning to get the hell out of that area...ÂÂ  Maybe they should take some of the blame themselves for being so careless about themselves and their families knowing a category 5 hurricane was about to hit.

How about the fact that those who were left behind were overwhelmingly poor who do not have the luxury of vehicles or having a place to go to (keeping in mind that the emergency shelters now in places like Houston were an afterthought after it became very clear just how bad this was turning out to be)?ÂÂ  But then again, I guess it's still their fault (the poverty I mean), right?

Quote
By the way, where are all the other countries that constantly scream about American imperialism' whom we have bailed out on many occasions?

Who exactly have "you" (since you speak of "we") "bailed out"?

btw. even though neither you nor your governement have "bailed" out my country (Canada), we've offered aid already, including a willingness to spike oil production out west to help compensate, as well as offering manpower, helicopters, foodstuffs, etc.ÂÂ  Many other countries have already done this - but the fact of the matter is, we can't just waltz in there and do this, since in the end, it's "your" country and "your" people who are going to have to delegate how foreign assistance is distributed.

And your government (not speaking of your people, but this regime in Washington) is still bent on Imperium.ÂÂ  But that still doesn't mean people critical of this, can't get passed this governmental arrogance and miscalculation and want to help the human faces they see hungry, dehyrdated, and homeless on their television screens.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2005, 11:19:54 AM by Augustine » Logged
Jennifer
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 1,154


« Reply #32 on: September 03, 2005, 11:23:21 AM »

Mark my words: this shift in your nation's collective conscience means that the days of the right wing nut jobs in the US are numbered since Katrina.....
Bob Dylan, was right after all-  "The answer my friend, is blowin' in the wind."

I think you're exactly right.  The response to this disaster demonstrates something I've long suspected; that the American people, despite our complaints about taxes and "big" government, believe in the power of the federal government.  For example, we often hear complaints about "activist" judges but it seems to me that most Americans are not originalists.  Most Americans support Brown vs. the Board of Education and Miranda. 

I've just started a fascinating book, Rising Tide, about the 1927 flood of the Mississippi.  I'd seen it discussed in recent days on-line so had to read it.  I haven't gotten into the 'meat' of the book yet, but I believe the author's contention is that the inept federal response to this flood laid the groundwork for the New Deal. 

Logged
Augustine
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 565

pray for me, please


WWW
« Reply #33 on: September 03, 2005, 11:32:59 AM »

Jennifer,

Quote
Why place unfortunates in quotes?  BTW, are you aware that lack of water causes psychotic behavior?

It's also important to note, that while actual looting has occured (by this I mean, the theft of non-essential/luxury goods), alot of what has been called "looting" in the popular press has in fact been the commandeering of goods - food, clean clothing, medical supplies, etc.  Of course, I guess when the face doing this is a few shades darker than off white, it becomes "looting" instead of "scavenging".

Quote
I didn't read the rest of your post because I don't think you wrote it.  It didn't 'sound' like you.  However, from glancing over it (and that kind of 'garbage' doesn't deserve serious attention) I see all of the many errors of protestant fundamentalism.

Well, a huge part of the neo-con mentality (at least on it's goyim-"Christian" end, rather than it's hyper-zionistic, Judaic end) is the leftovers of American Calvinism/Manifest-Destiny and all that bunk; thus, from such a point of view, the people suffering here just have to somehow personally, directly, and distinctly deserve the misery they are going through (and more to the point, would deserve it if outsiders allowed them to suffer, or were less than prompt in getting them help.)

 
Logged
Fr. David
The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Diocese of the South
Posts: 2,828



WWW
« Reply #34 on: September 03, 2005, 12:26:23 PM »

Of course, I guess when the face doing this is a few shades darker than off white, it becomes "looting" instead of "scavenging".

Quote
thus, from such a point of view, the people suffering here just have to somehow personally, directly, and distinctly [supposedly] deserve the misery they are going through (and more to the point, would [supposedly] deserve it if outsiders allowed them to suffer, or were less than prompt in getting them help.)

Both excellent points.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2005, 12:27:23 PM by Pedro » Logged

Priest in the Orthodox Church in America - ordained on March 18, 2012

Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

From Protestant to Orthodox (my conversion story)
StephenG
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 229


« Reply #35 on: September 03, 2005, 12:31:51 PM »

I have gone back and forth over Nacho's beautiful timeline and it started me wondering. Like anything else it is selective.

We could start the time line at a different point. A serious British broadsheet The Independent today have across the front cover the following:

THE QUESTIONS AMERICA IS ASKING GEORGE BUSH


WHY did he spend the first of the disaster on a fundraising tour for the Republican party?

HOW could the world's only superpower be slow in rescuing its own people?

WHERE was the President in his country's hour of need? And whay has it taken him five days to go to New Orleans?

WHY did it take so long to send adequate National Guard forces to keep law and order?

HOW can the US take Iraq, a country of 25m people, in three weeks but fail to rescue 25,000 of its own citizens from a sports area in a big American city?

WHY did he cut funding for flood control and emergency management?

Perhaps, Nacho, the time line might start from the cutting of the funding for flood control and emergency management in the vital area of the United States. A truly shortsighted and costly saving he must now bitterly regret. Our Canadian colleague too has addressed some unattractive features of the Bush administration but made that very clear distinction many of us from outside have. We might hate the Imperial arrogance but care deeply about a wounded people in desperate need. Perhaps taking the example of the Good Samaritan as our lead.

Another paper, the right-wing tabloid and bete noir of Tony Blair The Daily Mail has as its front page headline:

THIRD WORLD AMERICA -Fears of 10,000 deaths as rape, looting and chaos expose incompetence of the U.S.

In this they appear to strike a similar view to The Independent (a politically very different newspaper) which has:

America's obsession with maintaining its pre-eminent position as the world's largest superpower means it is incapable of responding swiftly and effectively to a humanitarian crisis. While it has the firepower for fighting wars, it does not have leadership and skills to combat natural disaster.

I prefer the time line that suggests we look at the factors that lead up to this debacle and not that proposed by Nacho.
Logged
Nacho
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: EasternOrthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,482

The face of Corporate America


« Reply #36 on: September 03, 2005, 03:16:52 PM »

Quote
Why place unfortunates in quotes?  BTW, are you aware that lack of water causes psychotic behavior? 

I didn't read the rest of your post because I don't think you wrote it.  It didn't 'sound' like you.  However, from glancing over it (and that kind of 'garbage' doesn't deserve serious attention) I see all of the many errors of protestant fundamentalism.   
 

Jennifer, WTF?? You have to be kidding me. Sorry, but I don't suffer from a 'just world viewpoint' that is embedded in protestant fundamentalism. While everyone is trying to put blame on the federal government, all I'm pointing out is the biggest failure occured at the local level. Could you imagine the fed's having evacuation plans for some of the bigger cities in the country; mayors, local officials etc. would scream bloody murder because that is their resposibility.



Quote
I have gone back and forth over Nacho's beautiful timeline and it started me wondering. Like anything else it is selective.

We could start the time line at a different point. A serious British broadsheet The Independent today have across the front cover the following:

THE QUESTIONS AMERICA IS ASKING GEORGE BUSH


WHY did he spend the first of the disaster on a fundraising tour for the Republican party?

HOW could the world's only superpower be slow in rescuing its own people?

WHERE was the President in his country's hour of need? And whay has it taken him five days to go to New Orleans?

WHY did it take so long to send adequate National Guard forces to keep law and order?

HOW can the US take Iraq, a country of 25m people, in three weeks but fail to rescue 25,000 of its own citizens from a sports area in a big American city?

WHY did he cut funding for flood control and emergency management?

Perhaps, Nacho, the time line might start from the cutting of the funding for flood control and emergency management in the vital area of the United States. A truly shortsighted and costly saving he must now bitterly regret. Our Canadian colleague too has addressed some unattractive features of the Bush administration but made that very clear distinction many of us from outside have. We might hate the Imperial arrogance but care deeply about a wounded people in desperate need. Perhaps taking the example of the Good Samaritan as our lead.

Another paper, the right-wing tabloid and bete noir of Tony Blair The Daily Mail has as its front page headline:

THIRD WORLD AMERICA -Fears of 10,000 deaths as rape, looting and chaos expose incompetence of the U.S.

In this they appear to strike a similar view to The Independent (a politically very different newspaper) which has:

America's obsession with maintaining its pre-eminent position as the world's largest superpower means it is incapable of responding swiftly and effectively to a humanitarian crisis. While it has the firepower for fighting wars, it does not have leadership and skills to combat natural disaster.

I prefer the time line that suggests we look at the factors that lead up to this debacle and not that proposed by Nacho.
Posted on: Today at 12:26:23 PMPosted by: Pedro 

Last night I caught a little of the O'Reilly show, Col. David Hunt reported on an investigation he did as to why the National Guard wasn't brought in sooner. His conclusion was that the Governor of Louisiana didn't order them activated soon enough. We are also now discovering that the City of New Orleans never had a plan for evacuating those people who had no mobility or could not afford to obtain transportation. Emblematic of New Orleans and its multiple failure at planning, hundreds of school buses were not used and were left under water -- school buses that could and should have been pressed into service to help evacuate the poor and needy from the city. What is emerging is a picture of a city with a "caretaker mentality" that seems to look first to the federal government. I know New Orleans is a relatively poor city, and I'm not criticizing their circumstance. But, the "leadership" in that city seems to refuse to take responsibility for their own actions -- or inactions. Frankly, many of the comments I've heard so far are indicative of an entire population (perhaps as many as 25% of the inhabitants of New Orleans) which was at or below the poverty level, and subsidized by the federal government. Yet, neither the mayor nor the governor had the foresight to request federal assistance until after they had lost control of the situation. Then, they blamed their own inaction on the federal government. I'm not asigning any blame to those that couldn't get out also. Of course you are going to have elderly and the dire poor that truely had no means to get out of the city and that's understandable. What I don't understand is after the feds told the mayor & local officials two days before the storm hit to call for mandatory evacuations, why did they wait? Why didn't they use any of the resources such as the school buses that are now underwater to help the poor and needy get out? It's really easy to blame the feds, but there could have been alot done beforehand by the local officals to make things much smoother. Some of guys make it sound that the federal government can just walk into any situation and wave a magic wand and everything will be better. This is not like 9/11 where the devastation took place in one concentrated area, this is by far larger stretching accross many states. I'm also not giving the feds a pass here. I'm sure once the amount of damage was realised and the reports a few days after coming out of New Orleans, there should have been a swifter response. It appears that there was not any 'worst case' scenario planned out in advance by any government agency which explains the results we are seeing now.
Logged

"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."--Mere Christianity
Jennifer
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 1,154


« Reply #37 on: September 03, 2005, 03:46:58 PM »

Jennifer, WTF?? You have to be kidding me. Sorry, but I don't suffer from a 'just world viewpoint' that is embedded in protestant fundamentalism. While everyone is trying to put blame on the federal government, all I'm pointing out is the biggest failure occured at the local level. Could you imagine the fed's having evacuation plans for some of the bigger cities in the country; mayors, local officials etc. would scream bloody murder because that is their resposibility.

I live in a large city and I hope that the federal government has an evacuation plan in case of a terrorist attack.  I know that the state and local government couldn't handle the evacuation of millions of people.  Further, I'm sure that my mayor and governor would be thrilled to cede that responsibility to the federal government. 

The biggest failure occured at the federal level because the federal government is government that had the best opportunity to help in this kind of a catastrophe.  Louisiana is a poor state.  It's one of the numerous 'welfare' red states, i.e. gets more from the federal government than it pays in taxes.  New Orleans is a poor city.  It can't even afford to educate its children.  Neither government could ever have had the means to handle this kind of a disaster. 

Lets take the federal interstate system as an example.  It was funded primarily by the federal government because our nation made the decision that free travel throughout the country was necessary for our economy and national defense.  Poor states like Mississippi and Louisiana could never have afforded to build highways across their states.  So the federal government was the primary source of funding. 

Quote
Last night I caught a little of the O'Reilly show,

Just as I suspected, your primary "news" source is partisan. 

Quote
Col. David Hunt reported on an investigation he did as to why the National Guard wasn't brought in sooner. His conclusion was that the Governor of Louisiana didn't order them activated soon enough. We are also now discovering that the City of New Orleans never had a plan for evacuating those people who had no mobility or could not afford to obtain transportation. Emblematic of New Orleans and its multiple failure at planning, hundreds of school buses were not used and were left under water -- school buses that could and should have been pressed into service to help evacuate the poor and needy from the city. What is emerging is a picture of a city with a "caretaker mentality" that seems to look first to the federal government. I know New Orleans is a relatively poor city, and I'm not criticizing their circumstance. But, the "leadership" in that city seems to refuse to take responsibility for their own actions -- or inactions. Frankly, many of the comments I've heard so far are indicative of an entire population (perhaps as many as 25% of the inhabitants of New Orleans) which was at or below the poverty level, and subsidized by the federal government. Yet, neither the mayor nor the governor had the foresight to request federal assistance until after they had lost control of the situation. Then, they blamed their own inaction on the federal government. I'm not asigning any blame to those that couldn't get out also. Of course you are going to have elderly and the dire poor that truely had no means to get out of the city and that's understandable. What I don't understand is after the feds told the mayor & local officials two days before the storm hit to call for mandatory evacuations, why did they wait? Why didn't they use any of the resources such as the school buses that are now underwater to help the poor and needy get out? It's really easy to blame the feds, but there could have been alot done beforehand by the local officals to make things much smoother. Some of guys make it sound that the federal government can just walk into any situation and wave a magic wand and everything will be better. This is not like 9/11 where the devastation took place in one concentrated area, this is by far larger stretching accross many states. I'm also not giving the feds a pass here. I'm sure once the amount of damage was realised and the reports a few days after coming out of New Orleans, there should have been a swifter response. It appears that there was not any 'worst case' scenario planned out in advance by any government agency which explains the results we are seeing now.

Flooding along the Mississippi has been an issue of federal concern since the late nineteenth century.  It's far too late now to suggest that state and local governments bore the primary responsibility.  I don't know if the specific levees that broke were built by the federal government but most of the levees along the Mississippi are maintained by the Corps of Engineers (federal agency) so it's likely that they were. 

Simply put, the federal government had the most opportunity to prevent the disaster, therefore, they should bear lion's share of the blame. 
Logged
Silouan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 818

Bogurodzica dziewica zbaw nas


« Reply #38 on: September 03, 2005, 04:09:08 PM »

Quote
Last night I caught a little of the O'Reilly show,

Just as I suspected, your primary "news" source is partisan. 

I don't really find Nacho to be any more partisan than you are.  And O'Reilly show is very interesting and informative.  Liberal media presents itself as objective, at least conservative media admits it is biased.  One doesn't have to agree with the conclusion reached by an editorialist (such as O'Reilly) in order to consider it a valid show. 


Perhaps this though is th best solution that I have seen to the looting problems:  http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=1756&e=1&u=/050901/480/ladm11609012342   Some people realize you can't just sit back and expect the government to save you. 
Logged
drewmeister2
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Hellenic Orthodox Traditionalist Church of America
Posts: 415


Christmas at St Markella's Cathedral, Astoria, NY


« Reply #39 on: September 03, 2005, 04:16:45 PM »

I watched, and then me and my non-smoking sister went outside and drank a beer and had several cigs...ÂÂ  It upsets me just thinking about whats going on down there.
And the fact that Bush hasn't even been down there yet!!!ÂÂ  He was right there in NYC after 9-11.ÂÂ  It's been days now.ÂÂ  And the way the recovery & rescue is disorganized..ÂÂ  If we could drop food in Vietnam back in the day, for gosh sakes, why can't we drop our own people water now???

I would assume he hasn't been down there because there is no way he can have guaranteed security.  People are walking around with guns everywhere.  He could be killed very easily.   
Logged

Orthodoxia i Thanatos

IC    XC      ...and in ONE HOLY CATHOLIC
    +                   and APOSTOLIC CHURCH...
NI    KA

www.hotca.org | www.YouTube.com/GreekOrthodoxTV
Jennifer
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 1,154


« Reply #40 on: September 03, 2005, 04:17:09 PM »

I don't really find Nacho to be any more partisan than you are.

I didn't note that he was partisan (that goes without saying) but rather that his primary "news" sources are partisan.  Nacho has been coming to this forum for the past several years posting all kinds of garbage he hears on talk radio or Fox "News." 

Quote
And O'Reilly show is very interesting and informative.  Liberal media presents itself as objective, at least conservative media admits it is biased.  One doesn't have to agree with the conclusion reached by an editorialist (such as O'Reilly) in order to consider it a valid show. 

O'Reilly calls his show the "No Spin Zone."  That's hardly an admission of bias.  I don't have a problem with editorial "news" like O'Reilly and other Fox shows but rather with the impression that people like Nacho have, that it is "news" and not entertainment or an editorial. 

Logged
Silouan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 818

Bogurodzica dziewica zbaw nas


« Reply #41 on: September 03, 2005, 04:44:32 PM »

It is an editorial show.  The no spin stuff is rhetoric and marketing, someone of your intelligence should be able to see past that.  And it is actually less partisan than one would expect, O'Reilly is quite critical of President Bush on many points. 

What I find most curious though is how Liberals have such absolute hatred of Fox News.  It is a good news source and a great way to see things from a certain point of view.  The intense hatred for it though is telling.  But then again I also appreciate Al Jazeera as a news source.  Maybe I just am a more firm believer in diversity than you. 
Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #42 on: September 03, 2005, 05:17:54 PM »

Next thing we're going to be reading is that the current administration caused the hurricane as well; actually, I already have read this by those who criticize the adminisration's environmental policy. The bottom line is that we love to lay blame at people's feet, even when there is none; and if it's politically advantageous, watch out. Even had the local/state/federal government thrown more money into flood control in New Orleans, it probably wouldn't have helped; nearly all the flood control in New Orleans was focused on the river, this disaster was caused by the lake, the reason more effort was not put into protecting the city from flooding from the lake was that it has not been viewed as a significant threat, and only under very unique situations was it even possible; so had a couple billion more been thrown into flood prevention, it probably wouldn't have even helped.

Of course, everyone here is caught up in the emotionalism, it's a favourite tool for politicians to use to gain the support of the less intelligent elements of society (one of the greatest problems with democracy). Let's sit back and think about this rationally; yes, we could pour $100 billion tax dollars a year into disaster prevention and relief, but this would be utter foolishness because our current budget is more than enought to deal with the overwhelming majority of disasters; this, however, is a once in a century disaster, it's not something that is practical to plan for, you just hope it doesn't hit you, and if it does, you clean things up afterwards, and even if we wasted $100 billion a year (in relative terms) for the last century preparing for this disaster, and five times a year shut down every city that a hurricane might hit, costing the economy hundreds of billions more, what would we have gained? We Might be three days ahead of schedule at the most, there may be a few less people in the danger zone, though unless you are going to summon the militia and force the citizens of the city out at gunpoint for every potential threat, you'd still have tens of thousands who stayed behind in the city.

No one's at fault, no one's to blame, it's a natural disaster on a scale that hasn't been seen since either the San Francisco Earthquake or the Galveston Hurricane, both of which happened at the turn of the 20th Century. Things will be cleaned up, things will eventually get back to normal, but it will take time, if the Port of New Orleans is functioning again in three months time, and officials have said it could be substantially less, that would be an exceptional effort on the part of the local, state, and federal governments.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Jennifer
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 1,154


« Reply #43 on: September 04, 2005, 12:05:27 AM »

It is an editorial show.  The no spin stuff is rhetoric and marketing, someone of your intelligence should be able to see past that.  And it is actually less partisan than one would expect, O'Reilly is quite critical of President Bush on many points. 

What I find most curious though is how Liberals have such absolute hatred of Fox News.  It is a good news source and a great way to see things from a certain point of view.  The intense hatred for it though is telling.  But then again I also appreciate Al Jazeera as a news source.  Maybe I just am a more firm believer in diversity than you. 

Fox "News" is particularly objectionable because it is more entertainment than news.  People like Nacho watch it and can't differentiate between news and editorials so they're easily mislead. 

Logged
Silouan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 818

Bogurodzica dziewica zbaw nas


« Reply #44 on: September 04, 2005, 12:26:14 AM »

One could argue that you are just as misled as Nacho; of course only on a different path.  Fox News is a bussiness.  They found a niche that wasn't being filled - centrist to conservative news media - and marketed it, making money in the meantime. 

Honestly, what is so evil about Fox other than it tends to have a conservative bias?ÂÂ  How is that any worse than say Dan Rather or CNN?ÂÂ  For me being such an angry young man (to use your words) - YOU seem to feel quite angry about this.  I guess it comes down to me believing in diversity and free speech. 
« Last Edit: September 04, 2005, 12:29:05 AM by Silouan » Logged
Nacho
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: EasternOrthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,482

The face of Corporate America


« Reply #45 on: September 05, 2005, 02:34:25 AM »

Quote
It is an editorial show.ÂÂ  The no spin stuff is rhetoric and marketing, someone of your intelligence should be able to see past that.ÂÂ  And it is actually less partisan than one would expect, O'Reilly is quite critical of President Bush on many points.ÂÂ  

What I find most curious though is how Liberals have such absolute hatred of Fox News.ÂÂ  It is a good news source and a great way to see things from a certain point of view.ÂÂ  The intense hatred for it though is telling.ÂÂ  But then again I also appreciate Al Jazeera as a news source.ÂÂ  Maybe I just am a more firm believer in diversity than you.ÂÂ

Yea, Jennifer acts as if everything she states are the 'facts' and if anyone says differently then they are being 'partisan'. I don't get the whole phobia the Left has with Fox News, atleast they present many different points of view. That's a much better option than say CNN that will interview some moonbat with no counterpoint or follow up to challenge what the person is saying and they leave it at that. Could it be that these people really don't beleive in diversity of opinion? Maybe Jennifer has been hanging around too many liars, I mean lawyers... GrinÂÂ  I can just about garauntee you if she spewed some of the same stuff she writes on this board at the place I bartend at all the patrons would look at her like a moonbat. I have my ear pretty much to the 'common man' and more than 9 out of 10 would agree with what I have said here. Actually, most of my patrons that I have heard so far have expressed views more extreme than myslelf in regards to Katrina puting most of the blame on the people that didn't get out and the wingnut mayor of NO. I'm sure all these common folk would be branded with some kind of 'slogan' such as right wing fundamentalist or protestant extremist by her. Maybe they have been watching too much Fox News and listening to talk radio.... Roll Eyes

Quote
One could argue that you are just as misled as Nacho; of course only on a different path.ÂÂ  Fox News is a business.ÂÂ  They found a niche that wasn't being filled - centrist to conservative news media - and marketed it, making money in the meantime.ÂÂ  

Honestly, what is so evil about Fox other than it tends to have a conservative bias?  How is that any worse than say Dan Rather or CNN?  For me being such an angry young man (to use your words) - YOU seem to feel quite angry about this.  I guess it comes down to me believing in diversity and free speech.  ÃƒÆ’‚Â
Posted on: Yesterday at 12:05:27 AMPosted by: JenniferÂÂ  


Thanks for pointing out Jen's blunders, but I still don't get why my stance is wrong? While everyone was having their cryfest earlier and blaming Bush for not showing up the minute after the storm hit to wave his magic wand and make all the problems go away; all I maintained was that multiple failures occurred at the local level which could have alleviated most of the problems we are seeing now. Nope, all I saw here was allot of unfair criticism and not a peep out of anyone about the problems I cited earlier that happened at the local & state level. I think my approach was pretty fair to say the least. The feds also should get some of the blame for their slow response after the facts were known and the devastation realised.

Quote
Next thing we're going to be reading is that the current administration caused the hurricane as well; actually, I already have read this by those who criticize the administration's environmental policy. The bottom line is that we love to lay blame at people's feet, even when there is none; and if it's politically advantageous, watch out. Even had the local/state/federal government thrown more money into flood control in New Orleans, it probably wouldn't have helped; nearly all the flood control in New Orleans was focused on the river, this disaster was caused by the lake, the reason more effort was not put into protecting the city from flooding from the lake was that it has not been viewed as a significant threat, and only under very unique situations was it even possible; so had a couple billion more been thrown into flood prevention, it probably wouldn't have even helped.

Of course, everyone here is caught up in the emotionalism, it's a favourite tool for politicians to use to gain the support of the less intelligent elements of society (one of the greatest problems with democracy). Let's sit back and think about this rationally; yes, we could pour $100 billion tax dollars a year into disaster prevention and relief, but this would be utter foolishness because our current budget is more than enough to deal with the overwhelming majority of disasters; this, however, is a once in a century disaster, it's not something that is practical to plan for, you just hope it doesn't hit you, and if it does, you clean things up afterwards, and even if we wasted $100 billion a year (in relative terms) for the last century preparing for this disaster, and five times a year shut down every city that a hurricane might hit, costing the economy hundreds of billions more, what would we have gained? We Might be three days ahead of schedule at the most, there may be a few less people in the danger zone, though unless you are going to summon the militia and force the citizens of the city out at gunpoint for every potential threat, you'd still have tens of thousands who stayed behind in the city.


Thanks GiC for the common sense you have demonstrated. In an earlier post someone was whimpering about it's Bush's fault because he supposedly cut funding for levee projects. That's the typical modus operandi of the moonbats that sit around twitling their thumbs coming up with such crazy theories. Now to these people, huge cuts really mean that instead of a bureaucracy or project growing by 8% or more on an annual basis, it may get bumped down a point or two in the following years budget. They scream "evil republicans are cutting program's", but to date hasn't Bush been one of the biggest spending Presidents when it comes to such things? I guess these people think we have an endless supply of money and resources, that is as long as it's coming from that far away place we call Washington DC... Roll Eyes

Quote
I would assume he hasn't been down there because there is no way he can have guaranteed security.  People are walking around with guns everywhere.  He could be killed very easily.  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚Â
Posted on: September 03, 2005, 04:09:08 PMPosted by: SilouanÂÂ  

Well actually according to some people in the 'black community' he's a racist that doesn't care about people of color. I think Jesse Highjack-son has already chimed in and in so many words said so. Bush extends hand and gives initial 10 billion, aid etc., they take money and aid from hand and at the same time curse and call him a 'racist' (of course the ones that use such tactics). I don't know why he goes out of his way everytime to please people like Jackson & Sharpton who have had nothing but contempt for him.

Quote
The biggest failure occurred at the federal level because the federal government is government that had the best opportunity to help in this kind of a catastrophe.ÂÂ  Louisiana is a poor state.ÂÂ  It's one of the numerous 'welfare' red states, i.e. gets more from the federal government than it pays in taxes.ÂÂ  New Orleans is a poor city.ÂÂ  It can't even afford to educate its children.ÂÂ  Neither government could ever have had the means to handle this kind of a disaster.ÂÂ  

Jennifer, sorry but you are mistaken here. The federal government did it's job when it told the mayor of NO on Saturday to issue an mandatory evacuation. It was then up to the mayor to follow the cities guidelines on what they needed to do to get the remaining citizens of the city to a safe place. The mayor didn't do anything and sat on his @ss until it was too late. I'll post a picture of the hundreds of school buses that could have been used but were not. Incidentally, these buses were located only a few miles away from the superdome. Here's the problem I have with the local and state officials:

The mayor...
*Did not follow the New Orleans Emergency Disaster Plan;
*Wrung his hands over whether to make the evacuation mandatory until too late;
*Failed to utilize hundreds of city-owned buses to evacuate thousands of residents;
*Evacuated high-profile visitors while his city's citizens were suffering;
*Spent most of his time blaming President Bush rather than leading;
*Was emotional and irrational in a radio interview, adding to the chaos in his city.

The Governor...
*Provided no leadership whatsoever in this crisis;
*Refused Bush Administration's request for a federal takeover of the evacuation;
*Admitted Saturday, "We did not have enough resources here to do it all...;
*Yet failed to request additional guardsmen from neighboring states;
*Failed to mobilize the Louisiana National Guard before Katrina's landfall;
*Failed to take available firefighting resources as fires broke out in New Orleans;
*Her La. Homeland Security director refused to allow Red Cross into New Orleans;
*Blamed President Bush when she should have been leading;
*Was emotional and cried on television, hardly a portrait of strong leadership.


---So put that in your pipe and smoke it... Cheesy
Quote
« Last Edit: September 05, 2005, 02:36:56 AM by Nacho » Logged

"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."--Mere Christianity
prodromos
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,463

Sydney, Australia


« Reply #46 on: September 05, 2005, 02:42:07 AM »

Many of the posts in this thread have been extremely uncharitable. If people can't discuss the perceived flaws in a person's argument without making personal attacks then I will quite happily lock this thread and put all the usual suspects on a one day suspension so you can cool down a bit.

We are adults after all. Can't we at least behave like we have developed a bit more maturity since our teens.

If the tone in the thread hasn't changed when I next check in a few hours time, I will start suspensions.

Your "friendly" global moderator.
Logged
sin_vladimirov
ANAXIOS!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 477

ICXC NIKA


« Reply #47 on: September 05, 2005, 02:50:39 AM »

Many of the posts in this thread have been extremely uncharitable. If people can't discuss the perceived flaws in a person's argument without making personal attacks then I will quite happily lock this thread and put all the usual suspects on a one day suspension so you can cool down a bit.

We are adults after all. Can't we at least behave like we have developed a bit more maturity since our teens.

If the tone in the thread hasn't changed when I next check in a few hours time, I will start suspensions.

Your "friendly" global moderator.

You know that you will have to come in couple of hours and close it anyway... people do not learn...

I reckon you should lock not just this thread but all of us for couple of days....

Sometimes its just shamefull....
Logged

Lord have mercy.
prodromos
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,463

Sydney, Australia


« Reply #48 on: September 05, 2005, 03:43:34 AM »

I recommend everyone take a look at the most recent entry in Iacobas' blog today
http://www.minorclergy.evlogeite.com/
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #49 on: September 05, 2005, 05:52:19 AM »

Come gather round people wherever you roam
And admit that the waters around you have grown
And accept it that soon you’ll be drenched to the bone
If your time to you is worth saving
Then you’d better start swimming or you’ll sink like a stone
For the times, they are a changing

Come writers and critics who prophesize with your pens
And keep your eyes open, the chance won’t come again
And don’t speak too soon, the wheel’s still in spin
And there’s no telling who that it’s naming

Oh the loser now will be later to win
For the times, they are a changing

Come senators, congressmen, please head the call
Don’t stand in the doorway, don’t block up the hall
For he that gets hurt will be he that has stalled
The battle outside raging will soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times, they are a changing


Come mothers and fathers all over this land
And don’t criticize what you can’t understand
Your sons and your daughter are beyond your command
Your old road is rapidly aging
Please get out of the new one if you can’t lend a hand
For the times they are a changing

The line, it is drawn, the curse, it is cast
The slow one will later be fast
And the present now will soon be the past
The order is rapidly fading
The first one now will later be last
For the times, they are a changing
« Last Edit: September 05, 2005, 09:31:39 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
StephenG
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 229


« Reply #50 on: September 05, 2005, 01:01:35 PM »

Reading this thread, the written media and listening to the broadcast media there appears to be as many views as there are commentators.

I listened to some young British women survivors only repatriated today talk of their experiences in the 'Dome. Of being protected, given water and food by kind people who had little enough for themselves but who gladly shared it and whose kindness, courtesy and care could not be underestimated. They said there were terrible things going on but that this was carried out by a tiny minority wreaking havoc and in a situation were there was no-one to enforce law and order. But their abiding memories were the kindnesses afforded to them, strangers, in dreadful circumstances.

What also becomes clear through a variety of sources, including posters here who I clearly have taken issue with, is a total breakdown of effective planning, leadership and response at every level local, state and Federal.

Some Britons complained of inadequate support from British Consular staff who apparently asked the Louisiana Governor every day for permission to enter the city to render aid to their nationals but who were refused that permission each and every time.

Also striking is the aid asked for and being sent from here, there and yonder. 1/2 million military emergency food packs being flown out now to Little Rock, Arkansas, and to followed by 12 more such flights. Offers from Cuba, Iran, Afghanistan, Bangladesh and many ofthers. Some I understand have been refused but at least in a desperate hour of need rivalries, hatreds and differences were forgotten.
Logged
Bono Vox
The Orthodox Bagpiper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 1,620



« Reply #51 on: September 05, 2005, 02:29:36 PM »

Nacho,

As usual, I tend to agree with you.

I love fox news and think that it has done a wonderful job at covering the recent disaster. (Shepherd Smith did a great job going over there and reporting right after the disaster....great job)

I think that after 9-11, the left learned it's lesson never to unite again during a disaster because if a conservative is in power it will probably score political points for the conservatives. I think that this is really sad. With that being said, I don't like republicans or democrats; however, I think that over all, the democrats are the most hostile towards religion and people of faith.

Whether one is "liberal" or "conservative" , we need to genuinely love people from the heart no matter what. This is our call as Orthodox Christians.

Not to change the subject, but is any one here familiar with Elder Cleopa of Romania??? I am reading a book on him now, and I am wondering how things are going with his consideration for being glorification as a saint?Huh?


Bagpiper
Logged

Troparion - Tone 1:
O Sebastian, spurning the assemblies of the wicked,You gathered the wise martyrs Who with you cast down the enemy; And standing worthily before the throne of God, You gladden those who cry to you:Glory to him who has strengthened you! Glory to him who has granted you a crown!
Silouan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 818

Bogurodzica dziewica zbaw nas


« Reply #52 on: September 06, 2005, 03:50:41 AM »

I'll repost this from my previous post for Jennifer as I do eagerly await her reply.  And she ought to reply since she has slammed Fox News and given no explanation other than it disagrees with her viewpoint.

"Honestly, what is so evil about Fox other than it tends to have a conservative bias?  How is that any worse than say Dan Rather or CNN?  For me being such an angry young man (to use your words) - YOU seem to feel quite angry about this.  I guess it comes down to me believing in diversity and free speech. "
Logged
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #53 on: September 06, 2005, 09:45:37 AM »

Broken wings
By Pantelis Boukalas

Shirt-sleeves rolled up, the American president finally landed in the hurricane-battered states of his country. George W. Bush tried to project a father-figure icon — the image of a leader who interrupts his vacation to reach out to the wretched people of this world — which is quite a common practice among political leaders of all genres. Sleeves rolled up, but wings broken, Bush’s imperial image was tarnished. No mirror is clearer or more revealing than the murky waters and the mud that a severe natural disaster leaves behind — yet one that had been forecast.

If the terrorist attacks in New York four years ago were said to mark the end of innocence (if that ever existed), now the thousands of dead and the hundreds of thousands of homeless signal that the illusion of the superpower has ended. An empire that fails to meet the basic needs of its citizens cannot afford to brag or feel secure.

This time, the lethal enemy did not strike from outside. It was not some evil outsider but the forces of nature and the criminal negligence of federal officials. Nature remains coldly indifferent to human feelings and constructs. It has no enemies. So the real villain must be political power, this time personified in Bush.

What the Bush administration failed to do before and after the calamity is well known. The vitriolic attacks of his fellow-Americans should be enough to remove the unruffled smugness from his face. As with the war on Iraq, the Bush administration tried to bamboozle the public. Back then it was the presumed weapons of mass destruction. This time, it was the meteorologists who supposedly failed to warn people about the magnitude of the threat. If Iraq is too far on the map for the average American, New Orleans is part of everyone’s reality. People can neither seek a religious explanation for the catastrophe nor close their eyes to it.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_columns_100020_06/09/2005_60442

Logged
SouthSerb99
Archbishop of Shlivo, Patriarch of All Vodkas & Defender Against All Overstepping!
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 2,800


Now Internet Forum Friendly


WWW
« Reply #54 on: September 06, 2005, 10:16:49 AM »

I've probably written this about a dozen times here, but I think all of the right vs. left, conservative vs. democrat stuff loses the point.

Anytime, someone (anyone) becomes so polarized by partisan politics, they lose sight of "THE TRUTH", something as Orthodox Christians, we should be most concerned about.

Podromos, Ozgeorge and S-V, thank you for being the voice of reason...

Let me explain a bit.ÂÂ  My feeling on George Bush vs. Bill Clinton have NO impact on how I see this or any other issue.

If you ask me whether I think the federal response has been adequate here, I'll tell you 100% NO.ÂÂ  However, that is not an indictment of Bush and his administration.ÂÂ  That is just based on this one event.

I was watching the Mclaughlin Group this Sunday and by in large everyone agreed that Bush bungled this one (to a degree).ÂÂ  Even Pat Buchanan.ÂÂ  I think that is a pretty fair assessment.

At the same time, the "Bush Bashers" here, should equally be ready willing and able to recognize the bungling of the Clinton administration vis a vis Orthodox lands, such as Kosovo and Bosnia.

To me, bad policy is bad policy, irrespective of political affiliation.ÂÂ  At the end of the day, I pray for the people in New Orleans, Miss, Alabama and all others affected, as I pray for all of the Orthodox Christians suffering in the Balkans.ÂÂ  I refuse to be drawn into the nonsensical dem vs. GOP debate, failure to acknowledge what is obviously bad, is just disingenuous.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2005, 10:18:21 AM by SouthSerb99 » Logged

"Wherever you go, there you are."
 Guy from my office

Orthodox Archbishopric of Ohrid
Hungry? Click Here
Stamfordguy
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 127



« Reply #55 on: September 06, 2005, 10:40:08 AM »

The question is not so much what did the President and his administration do or fail to do. The question is: what did YOU do? It's all well and good to point fingers at others (and the manner in which various television networks are demonstrating their political agendas now is sickening in the extreme) but remember that three fingers are pointing squarely back on you. So, if you have not yet made a contribution to alleviate the suffering of the many innocent victims of this horrific storm, maybe it's time to be silent and put your money where your mouth is? Just a thought.  Roll Eyes

And before you ask... yes... we have made our financial contribution.

Regards
Logged
PrinceMarko
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 26


« Reply #56 on: September 06, 2005, 11:41:49 AM »

I watched, and then me and my non-smoking sister went outside and drank a beer and had several cigs...  It upsets me just thinking about whats going on down there.
And the fact that Bush hasn't even been down there yet!!!  He was right there in NYC after 9-11.  It's been days now.  And the way the recovery & rescue is disorganized..  If we could drop food in Vietnam back in the day, for gosh sakes, why can't we drop our own people water now???

9/11 and New Orleans are not comparable. NYC wasnt totally destroyed like New Orleans is. Bush visiting NO would cause more problems then it would solve right now. Secondly, you obviously are ignorant of the way the US govt works.

1. The mayor is in charge of the New Orleans in concern of a crisis.

2. Then it goes to the Governor(national guard is her own military)

3. Then if they fail, the Federal government is to take over at the request of the governor(Its called the US consititution and States Rights, read it sometime)

Why dont you mention that the Mayor of New Orleans and Governor of Louisiana REFUSE to relinquish control to the Federal Govt? Who's fault is that? Bush? Was it also bush's fault that people are raping and killing others and stealing tv's?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2005, 11:42:32 AM by PrinceMarko » Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #57 on: September 06, 2005, 12:15:06 PM »

Sorry, no American political discussion.

Anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.201 seconds with 85 queries.