Author Topic: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language  (Read 10261 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #45 on: October 18, 2016, 10:51:30 PM »
Who uses these words? I don't think I've heard any of these words used in regular conversation within the last 10 years. Well, I have heard mistress, but the rest of them I've only seen in older books.
God bless!

Offline mcarmichael

  • Novice
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,610
  • No cocaine.
  • Faith: Christian
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #46 on: October 18, 2016, 11:27:53 PM »
That was a very poor article. Poorly written, I mean. It reveals the opposite of what the title says that it reveals, doesn't it? THat the English language is inherently gracious toward both parties?
« Last Edit: October 18, 2016, 11:33:54 PM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Horses are animals." - Gebre Menfes Kidus

Offline Opus118

  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,274
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #47 on: October 18, 2016, 11:41:07 PM »
It's hilarious to see the fellers come out of the woodwork and post things that prove the point of the OP.

Speaking of sexism.

Your post does have the appearance that if sexism is going on and you state that sexism is going on you are being sexist. Biro should have cited some posts to make her case, but this does not leave you off the hook from making a statement with multiple interpretations.  Avoid being a cad, if possible. 

Cad is yet another term that is no longer is used. Asteriktos had the most sensible post and should have ended the thread.
"Mi tío es enfermo, pero la carretera es verde!" - old Chilean saying

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,102
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #48 on: October 19, 2016, 10:18:04 AM »
It's hilarious to see the fellers come out of the woodwork and post things that prove the point of the OP.

Speaking of sexism.

Your post does have the appearance that if sexism is going on and you state that sexism is going on you are being sexist. Biro should have cited some posts to make her case, but this does not leave you off the hook from making a statement with multiple interpretations.  Avoid being a cad, if possible. 

Cad is yet another term that is no longer is used. Asteriktos had the most sensible post and should have ended the thread.

I do not understand what this is about.
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Opus118

  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,274
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #49 on: October 19, 2016, 10:56:27 AM »
It's hilarious to see the fellers come out of the woodwork and post things that prove the point of the OP.

Speaking of sexism.

Your post does have the appearance that if sexism is going on and you state that sexism is going on you are being sexist. Biro should have cited some posts to make her case, but this does not leave you off the hook from making a statement with multiple interpretations.  Avoid being a cad, if possible. 

Cad is yet another term that is no longer is used. Asteriktos had the most sensible post and should have ended the thread.

I do not understand what this is about.

I am glad you appreciate honesty.
"Mi tío es enfermo, pero la carretera es verde!" - old Chilean saying

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,332
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #50 on: October 19, 2016, 10:57:38 AM »
Mor's a pimp!
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,197
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #51 on: October 19, 2016, 02:59:21 PM »
So which one was a feminine equivalent of 'bastard', 'freak' or 'jerk'?
AFAIK there is no feminine equivalent of "bastard," "freak" or "jerk."

Btw, "queen" has moved in the opposite direction in English, from woman, to wife, to powerful woman.

About that.

Quote
[Middle English quene, from Old English cwēn; see gwen- in Indo-European roots.]
Word History: On paper, a queen and a quean are easily distinguished. In speech, however, it is easy to imagine how the complete homophony of the two words, both referring to female persons, could lead to embarrassing double-entendres—a fact which has probably contributed to a decline in use of the word quean in modern times. How did this troubling homophony come about? Queen comes from Old English cwēn, pronounced (kwān) and meaning "queen, wife of a king." The Old English word descends from Germanic *kwēn-iz, "woman, wife, queen," a derivative of the Germanic root *kwen-, "woman." Modern English quean, on the other hand, descends from another Old English word, cwene, pronounced (kwĕn′ə) and meaning "woman, female, female serf." The Germanic source of cwene is *kwen-ōn-, "woman, wife." This Germanic word is a derivative of the same root *kwen-, "woman, wife," that is the source of Modern English queen. From the eleventh century onward, qwen, the Middle English descendant of Old English cwene, "woman, female serf," and ancestor of Modern English quean, was also used to mean "prostitute." Once established, this pejorative sense of quean drove out its neutral senses, and especially in the 16th and 17th centuries, the word was used almost solely to refer to prostitutes. Around the same time, in many English dialects the pronunciation of queen and quean became identical, leading to the obsolescence of the latter term outside of a few regions. The Germanic root *kwen-, "woman," comes by Grimm's Law from the Indo-European root *gwen-, "woman," which appears in at least two other English words borrowed from elsewhere in the Indo-European family. One is gynecology, from Greek gunē, "woman." Another, less obvious, one is banshee, "woman of the fairies," the wailing female spirit attendant on a death, from Old Irish ben, "woman."

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/queen
About that.
Quote
Quaen

A male prostitute who waits on corners and back alleys for gay guys or confused straight guys.

A very feminine man.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Quaen
« Last Edit: October 19, 2016, 02:59:55 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Section Moderator
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,491
  • November is short. Type fast.
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #52 on: October 19, 2016, 03:14:07 PM »
So which one was a feminine equivalent of 'bastard', 'freak' or 'jerk'?
AFAIK there is no feminine equivalent of "bastard," "freak" or "jerk."

So the point you were trying to make was off topic. The article, very explicitly, examines pairs of equivalents, masculine and feminine, and how the feminine mode over time is downgraded to mean something insignificant or outright offensive, while the masculine retains its value.

Btw, "queen" has moved in the opposite direction in English, from woman, to wife, to powerful woman.

About that.

Quote
[Middle English quene, from Old English cwēn; see gwen- in Indo-European roots.]
Word History: On paper, a queen and a quean are easily distinguished. In speech, however, it is easy to imagine how the complete homophony of the two words, both referring to female persons, could lead to embarrassing double-entendres—a fact which has probably contributed to a decline in use of the word quean in modern times. How did this troubling homophony come about? Queen comes from Old English cwēn, pronounced (kwān) and meaning "queen, wife of a king." The Old English word descends from Germanic *kwēn-iz, "woman, wife, queen," a derivative of the Germanic root *kwen-, "woman." Modern English quean, on the other hand, descends from another Old English word, cwene, pronounced (kwĕn′ə) and meaning "woman, female, female serf." The Germanic source of cwene is *kwen-ōn-, "woman, wife." This Germanic word is a derivative of the same root *kwen-, "woman, wife," that is the source of Modern English queen. From the eleventh century onward, qwen, the Middle English descendant of Old English cwene, "woman, female serf," and ancestor of Modern English quean, was also used to mean "prostitute." Once established, this pejorative sense of quean drove out its neutral senses, and especially in the 16th and 17th centuries, the word was used almost solely to refer to prostitutes. Around the same time, in many English dialects the pronunciation of queen and quean became identical, leading to the obsolescence of the latter term outside of a few regions. The Germanic root *kwen-, "woman," comes by Grimm's Law from the Indo-European root *gwen-, "woman," which appears in at least two other English words borrowed from elsewhere in the Indo-European family. One is gynecology, from Greek gunē, "woman." Another, less obvious, one is banshee, "woman of the fairies," the wailing female spirit attendant on a death, from Old Irish ben, "woman."

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/queen
About that.
Quote
Quaen

A male prostitute who waits on corners and back alleys for gay guys or confused straight guys.

A very feminine man.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Quaen

Now you know how that came to be.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,197
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #53 on: October 19, 2016, 03:14:14 PM »
It's hilarious to see the fellers come out of the woodwork and post things that prove the point of the OP.
The pot has found its ladle to serve up its slop.

Sic dixit Biro ♀ October, 18, 2016.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,197
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #54 on: October 19, 2016, 03:21:21 PM »
So which one was a feminine equivalent of 'bastard', 'freak' or 'jerk'?
AFAIK there is no feminine equivalent of "bastard," "freak" or "jerk."

So the point you were trying to make was off topic.

No, I just refused to take the bait and go down the rabbit hole.

The article, very explicitly, examines pairs of equivalents, masculine and feminine, and how the feminine mode over time is downgraded to mean something insignificant or outright offensive, while the masculine retains its value.
No, it assERts its conclusion, and explicitly tries to edit the evidence to fit the predetermined narrative. Or did you think I was denying the existence of illegitimate daughters, for instance?

They equivalents it claims does not exist have already been given you.

Btw, "queen" has moved in the opposite direction in English, from woman, to wife, to powerful woman.

About that.

Quote
[Middle English quene, from Old English cwēn; see gwen- in Indo-European roots.]
Word History: On paper, a queen and a quean are easily distinguished. In speech, however, it is easy to imagine how the complete homophony of the two words, both referring to female persons, could lead to embarrassing double-entendres—a fact which has probably contributed to a decline in use of the word quean in modern times. How did this troubling homophony come about? Queen comes from Old English cwēn, pronounced (kwān) and meaning "queen, wife of a king." The Old English word descends from Germanic *kwēn-iz, "woman, wife, queen," a derivative of the Germanic root *kwen-, "woman." Modern English quean, on the other hand, descends from another Old English word, cwene, pronounced (kwĕn′ə) and meaning "woman, female, female serf." The Germanic source of cwene is *kwen-ōn-, "woman, wife." This Germanic word is a derivative of the same root *kwen-, "woman, wife," that is the source of Modern English queen. From the eleventh century onward, qwen, the Middle English descendant of Old English cwene, "woman, female serf," and ancestor of Modern English quean, was also used to mean "prostitute." Once established, this pejorative sense of quean drove out its neutral senses, and especially in the 16th and 17th centuries, the word was used almost solely to refer to prostitutes. Around the same time, in many English dialects the pronunciation of queen and quean became identical, leading to the obsolescence of the latter term outside of a few regions. The Germanic root *kwen-, "woman," comes by Grimm's Law from the Indo-European root *gwen-, "woman," which appears in at least two other English words borrowed from elsewhere in the Indo-European family. One is gynecology, from Greek gunē, "woman." Another, less obvious, one is banshee, "woman of the fairies," the wailing female spirit attendant on a death, from Old Irish ben, "woman."

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/queen
About that.
Quote
Quaen

A male prostitute who waits on corners and back alleys for gay guys or confused straight guys.

A very feminine man.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Quaen

Now you know how that came to be.
I knew that already
« Last Edit: October 19, 2016, 03:22:54 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,400
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #55 on: October 19, 2016, 03:36:14 PM »
The same kind of arguments the article makes on the part of women could all be made on the part of men, I think.

Why is "hussy" no longer a simple descriptive term? Well, why is "villain" no longer such a term?

Why is "master" now relegated to describing effete boys in well-to-do English families? Or, apropos of the "governess" complaint, male schoolteachers?

"Madam" and "ma'am" are still very much terms of respect. The fact some brothel managers were called it just means the brothels were trying to project false "class." "Godfather" is not only a mafia term, for example.

Why is "husband" no longer a term for a smallholder or a representative of a clan for tax purposes, but has instead shrunk shamefully to having no meaning outside of relation to women?

"Shrill" -- sure, and, for men, "braying," "bellowing," "bullying," and "bull[redacted]ing." Are we now supposed to think different vocal registers are sexist?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Section Moderator
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,491
  • November is short. Type fast.
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #56 on: October 19, 2016, 03:45:52 PM »
Why is "master" now relegated to describing effete boys in well-to-do English families? Or, apropos of the "governess" complaint, male schoolteachers?

Quartermaster, choirmaster, schoolmaster, headmaster, master of ceremonies...

Why is "husband" no longer a term for a smallholder or a representative of a clan for tax purposes, but has instead shrunk shamefully to having no meaning outside of relation to women?

Animal husbandry is still a degree option of the B.Sc. (Hons) variety, and, despite rumours, does not involve practice in sheep-shagging. 8)
« Last Edit: October 19, 2016, 03:46:22 PM by Arachne »
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,400
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #57 on: October 19, 2016, 04:15:11 PM »
Plainly you're at pains to ignore my real point, which is that English-language history is packed with alterations in word meaning and application and that therefore "eight words" -- or even eighty -- must fall far short of demonstrating that English hates women. Further, that words to insult and denigrate men or people generally (which, traditionally, implicated mostly men) are abundant in English.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Section Moderator
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,491
  • November is short. Type fast.
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #58 on: October 19, 2016, 04:41:01 PM »
Plainly you're at pains to ignore my real point, which is that English-language history is packed with alterations in word meaning and application and that therefore "eight words" -- or even eighty -- must fall far short of demonstrating that English hates women. Further, that words to insult and denigrate men or people generally (which, traditionally, implicated mostly men) are abundant in English.

Plainly you're ignoring the point of the article, which is a focus on pairs of equivalent titles, of which the feminine declined, often into an insult, while the masculine suffered no such alteration.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #59 on: October 19, 2016, 06:01:54 PM »
My opinion probably doesn't mean much since I'm a guy, but I thought Porter made a fairly good point. The article wasn't really focusing on pairs of equivalent titles. Tart, wench, spinster and hussy do not have corresponding male titles.
God bless!

Offline Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Section Moderator
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,491
  • November is short. Type fast.
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #60 on: October 19, 2016, 06:09:15 PM »
My opinion probably doesn't mean much since I'm a guy, but I thought Porter made a fairly good point. The article wasn't really focusing on pairs of equivalent titles. Tart, wench, spinster and hussy do not have corresponding male titles.

Quote
Thinking about the male equivalents of some of these words throws their sexism into sharp relief. Master for mistress; sir for madam; governor for governess; bachelor for spinster; courtier for courtesan – whereas the male list speaks of power and high status, the female list has a very different set of connotations. These are of either subordinate status or sexual service to men. The crucial thing to remember is that at one time, they were simply equivalents.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox

Offline mcarmichael

  • Novice
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,610
  • No cocaine.
  • Faith: Christian
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #61 on: October 19, 2016, 06:51:38 PM »
The thing is you can't blame it all on men, because women do it, too. It was maybe somebody's jealous ex who started using the term Mistress derrogatorily, you know?
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Horses are animals." - Gebre Menfes Kidus

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #62 on: October 19, 2016, 07:29:33 PM »
My opinion probably doesn't mean much since I'm a guy, but I thought Porter made a fairly good point. The article wasn't really focusing on pairs of equivalent titles. Tart, wench, spinster and hussy do not have corresponding male titles.

Quote
Thinking about the male equivalents of some of these words throws their sexism into sharp relief. Master for mistress; sir for madam; governor for governess; bachelor for spinster; courtier for courtesan – whereas the male list speaks of power and high status, the female list has a very different set of connotations. These are of either subordinate status or sexual service to men. The crucial thing to remember is that at one time, they were simply equivalents.
I'm not sure how bachelor is the counterpart of spinster. His own explanation of the origin of spinster refutes that it was the equivalent of bachelor. That gives him 4 words that have counterparts and 4 that don't. If I were to point out words such as  villain and gigolo or names like John and Dick, it is apparent that women aren't the only sufferers of such indignity.
God bless!

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,197
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #63 on: October 19, 2016, 08:29:29 PM »
Plainly you're at pains to ignore my real point, which is that English-language history is packed with alterations in word meaning and application and that therefore "eight words" -- or even eighty -- must fall far short of demonstrating that English hates women. Further, that words to insult and denigrate men or people generally (which, traditionally, implicated mostly men) are abundant in English.

Plainly you're ignoring the point of the article, which is a focus on pairs of equivalent titles, of which the feminine declined, often into an insult, while the masculine suffered no such alteration.
Plainly you're ignoring that your article has no point, as its thesis has been disproven, over and over, a point you have decided not to focus on. That is plainly shown by the treatment of "hussy."
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,197
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #64 on: October 19, 2016, 10:23:10 PM »
I wonder what the history of "f@#ny" says
Quote
fanny (n.)
"buttocks," 1920, American English, from earlier British meaning "vulva" (1879), perhaps from the name of John Cleland's heroine in the scandalous novel "Fanny Hill or Memoirs of a Woman of Pleasure" (1748). The fem. proper name is a diminutive of Frances. The genital sense is still the primary one outside U.S., but is not current in American English, a difference which can have consequences when U.S. TV programs and movies air in Britain.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=fanny
given that it is such a innocuous term-a child's term-in America.

Maybe that was too icky for the homosexual seeking a harem of (removed - Mor) to contemplate. Oh! the burdens of the  upper-middle class commentariat educating the 99%...

Edited to remove vulgar term. 

ialmisry, please be more careful in the future with your language. 

Mor Ephrem, section moderator
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 06:50:51 PM by Mor Ephrem »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Section Moderator
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,491
  • November is short. Type fast.
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #65 on: October 20, 2016, 02:19:45 AM »
Or maybe proper names don't have any connotations of status to lose, to begin with, and are thus outside the scope of the article.

Name popularity comes and goes, but Fanny hasn't fared too badly. Neither have Peter or Percy, for being euphemisms for penis. Or John, for that matter.

Quote
john  (jŏn)
n. Slang
1. A toilet.
2. A man who is a prostitute's customer.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 02:21:32 AM by Arachne »
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox

Offline wgw

  • All scorpions must DIE!!!
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,816
  • This icon is of St. Athansius.
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #66 on: October 20, 2016, 03:16:34 AM »
Linguists call it collocation: the likelihood of two words occurring together. If I say “pop”, your mental rolodex will begin whirring away, coming up with candidates for what might follow. “Music”, “song” or “star”, are highly likely. “Sensation” or “diva” a little less so. “Snorkel” very unlikely indeed.

What do you think of when I say the word “rabid”? One option, according to the dictionary publisher Oxford Dictionaries, is “feminist”. The publisher has been criticised for a sexist bias in its illustrations of how certain words are used. “Nagging” is followed by “wife”. “Grating” and “shrill” appear in sentences describing women’s voices, not men’s.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/27/eight-words-sexism-heart-english-language?CMP=share_btn_fb

So shall we switch to Esperanto? 
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Section Moderator
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,491
  • November is short. Type fast.
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #67 on: October 20, 2016, 03:25:58 AM »
So shall we switch to Esperanto?

Interpretive dance would probably suit your temperament better.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox

Offline FinnJames

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 788
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of Finland
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #68 on: October 20, 2016, 03:54:29 AM »
Linguists call it collocation: the likelihood of two words occurring together. If I say “pop”, your mental rolodex will begin whirring away, coming up with candidates for what might follow. “Music”, “song” or “star”, are highly likely. “Sensation” or “diva” a little less so. “Snorkel” very unlikely indeed.

What do you think of when I say the word “rabid”? One option, according to the dictionary publisher Oxford Dictionaries, is “feminist”. The publisher has been criticised for a sexist bias in its illustrations of how certain words are used. “Nagging” is followed by “wife”. “Grating” and “shrill” appear in sentences describing women’s voices, not men’s.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/27/eight-words-sexism-heart-english-language?CMP=share_btn_fb

Dictionaries--and particularly reputable ones like those published in the Oxford series--chose their definitions of words and their illustrations of how words are used together with other words (their collocations) by looking at how they have most commonly been used in a large body of texts, these days increasingly by searching the internet and the machine searchable national copora of written and spoken language gathered by trained linguists. If any accusation of sexism is to be made, it should not be directed at the dictionary publishers/editors, whose job it is to merely report how the language is actually used.

Offline Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Section Moderator
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,491
  • November is short. Type fast.
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #69 on: October 20, 2016, 04:55:27 AM »
Linguists call it collocation: the likelihood of two words occurring together. If I say “pop”, your mental rolodex will begin whirring away, coming up with candidates for what might follow. “Music”, “song” or “star”, are highly likely. “Sensation” or “diva” a little less so. “Snorkel” very unlikely indeed.

What do you think of when I say the word “rabid”? One option, according to the dictionary publisher Oxford Dictionaries, is “feminist”. The publisher has been criticised for a sexist bias in its illustrations of how certain words are used. “Nagging” is followed by “wife”. “Grating” and “shrill” appear in sentences describing women’s voices, not men’s.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/27/eight-words-sexism-heart-english-language?CMP=share_btn_fb

Dictionaries--and particularly reputable ones like those published in the Oxford series--chose their definitions of words and their illustrations of how words are used together with other words (their collocations) by looking at how they have most commonly been used in a large body of texts, these days increasingly by searching the internet and the machine searchable national copora of written and spoken language gathered by trained linguists. If any accusation of sexism is to be made, it should not be directed at the dictionary publishers/editors, whose job it is to merely report how the language is actually used.

Precisely the starting point of the article.

Quote
In other words, it’s not the dictionary that’s sexist, it’s the English-speaking world. Why choose “feminist” over, say, “rightwinger”, “communist” or “fan”, though? As if not quite convinced by its own explanation, the OUP is now “reviewing the example sentence for ‘rabid’ to ensure that it reflects current usage”.

That can only be a good thing. But a word of warning: it might not deliver the answer you’d hope for. Perhaps “rabid” is collocated with “feminist” more often than with those other words (if the data the OUP uses includes online discussions, I wouldn’t be surprised if this was the case). Sexist assumptions find their way into speech and writing for the simple reason that society is still sexist.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox

Offline wgw

  • All scorpions must DIE!!!
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,816
  • This icon is of St. Athansius.
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #70 on: October 20, 2016, 09:37:26 AM »
So shall we switch to Esperanto?

Interpretive dance would probably suit your temperament better.

Most amusing.  Actually I attempted with minimal success to learn ballroom dancing, but gave it up because it made me dizzy.  But I do enjoy the waltzes and minuets of the classical composers, especially the waltz, my favourites being The Rose of the South by Johann Strauss II and the waltz from Sleeping Beauty by Tchaikovsky (I found the main waltz in Swan Lake a bit too dissonant and the waltz in the Nutcracker Suite too caustic).  There are also some lovely Russian and Soviet waltzes, for example, "On the Manchurian Hills.". And of course, "Over the Waves," by a brilliant Mexican composer whose name escapes me.

But really, the idea that the English language discriminates against women in a unique way is preposterous.  Surely the arbitrary assigning of genders to inanimate objects in the Romance languages, where for example everything that contains something else as its primary function, for example a house, a vase, and so on, is far worse. 

English by virtue of its lack of grammatical genders, and the implications thereof, something several other Germanic languages have, is probably one of the tongues less discriminatory to women.

Also, one can always resort to using English in a sort of Feminist style Newspeak, taking great care to avoid these abominable patriarchal constructs.

For my part, I simply prefer not to read the Guardian, which seems the easier way out.  :P. One can escape many a Mancunian faux-controversy in this manner.   ;).   Although I did like Peter Capaldi's portrayal of their editor in the rather good biopic on Julian Assange.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Section Moderator
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,491
  • November is short. Type fast.
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #71 on: October 20, 2016, 10:00:24 AM »
But really, the idea that the English language discriminates against women in a unique way is preposterous.

Indeed. That's why no one has made such a claim.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,332
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #72 on: October 20, 2016, 10:18:21 AM »
Granting all the points made about particular words, is this really "the heart of the English language"? Language is reflecting the social conditions it arises in; apart from that, it has no heart.

Maybe grammar might be called a heart of sorts, in which case I note that even among ostensibly conservative speakers/ writers, the use of generic "he" as a rule has sharply diminished in favor of the singular "they."
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,197
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #73 on: October 20, 2016, 10:57:32 AM »
But really, the idea that the English language discriminates against women in a unique way is preposterous.

Indeed. That's why no one has made such a claim.
Didn't read the article you posted? Not even the title?
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 11:28:09 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,197
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #74 on: October 20, 2016, 11:16:17 AM »
Or maybe proper names don't have any connotations of status to lose, to begin with, and are thus outside the scope of the article.

Name popularity comes and goes, but Fanny hasn't fared too badly. Neither have Peter or Percy, for being euphemisms for penis. Or John, for that matter.

Quote
john  (jŏn)
n. Slang
1. A toilet.
2. A man who is a prostitute's customer.
Wrong again, as the pains parents put into choosing names to avoid nicknames (without much success, alas) shows. Proper names do not occur, they are made, and they are made with connotations of status.
And as always, classification and antonomasia yield archtypal names and eponyms.

Housewife hasn't fared too badly either. Until Shariatmadari's ilk....
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 11:17:54 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,197
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #75 on: October 20, 2016, 11:18:53 AM »
Linguists call it collocation: the likelihood of two words occurring together. If I say “pop”, your mental rolodex will begin whirring away, coming up with candidates for what might follow. “Music”, “song” or “star”, are highly likely. “Sensation” or “diva” a little less so. “Snorkel” very unlikely indeed.

What do you think of when I say the word “rabid”? One option, according to the dictionary publisher Oxford Dictionaries, is “feminist”. The publisher has been criticised for a sexist bias in its illustrations of how certain words are used. “Nagging” is followed by “wife”. “Grating” and “shrill” appear in sentences describing women’s voices, not men’s.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/27/eight-words-sexism-heart-english-language?CMP=share_btn_fb

So shall we switch to Esperanto?
we would have to get rid of "-in-" first.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,197
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #76 on: October 20, 2016, 11:20:46 AM »
Linguists call it collocation: the likelihood of two words occurring together. If I say “pop”, your mental rolodex will begin whirring away, coming up with candidates for what might follow. “Music”, “song” or “star”, are highly likely. “Sensation” or “diva” a little less so. “Snorkel” very unlikely indeed.

What do you think of when I say the word “rabid”? One option, according to the dictionary publisher Oxford Dictionaries, is “feminist”. The publisher has been criticised for a sexist bias in its illustrations of how certain words are used. “Nagging” is followed by “wife”. “Grating” and “shrill” appear in sentences describing women’s voices, not men’s.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/27/eight-words-sexism-heart-english-language?CMP=share_btn_fb

Dictionaries--and particularly reputable ones like those published in the Oxford series--chose their definitions of words and their illustrations of how words are used together with other words (their collocations) by looking at how they have most commonly been used in a large body of texts, these days increasingly by searching the internet and the machine searchable national copora of written and spoken language gathered by trained linguists. If any accusation of sexism is to be made, it should not be directed at the dictionary publishers/editors, whose job it is to merely report how the language is actually used.

Precisely the starting point of the article.

Quote
In other words, it’s not the dictionary that’s sexist, it’s the English-speaking world. Why choose “feminist” over, say, “rightwinger”, “communist” or “fan”, though? As if not quite convinced by its own explanation, the OUP is now “reviewing the example sentence for ‘rabid’ to ensure that it reflects current usage”.

That can only be a good thing. But a word of warning: it might not deliver the answer you’d hope for. Perhaps “rabid” is collocated with “feminist” more often than with those other words (if the data the OUP uses includes online discussions, I wouldn’t be surprised if this was the case). Sexist assumptions find their way into speech and writing for the simple reason that society is still sexist.
LOL.

precisely the denial (and demonstration) that feminism is still rabid.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Section Moderator
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,491
  • November is short. Type fast.
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #77 on: October 20, 2016, 11:34:34 AM »
But really, the idea that the English language discriminates against women in a unique way is preposterous.

Indeed. That's why no one has made such a claim.
Didn't read the article you posted? Not even the title?

There's no claim that the sexism in the English language is in any way unique. ::)
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox

Offline Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Section Moderator
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,491
  • November is short. Type fast.
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #78 on: October 20, 2016, 11:37:05 AM »
Granting all the points made about particular words, is this really "the heart of the English language"? Language is reflecting the social conditions it arises in; apart from that, it has no heart.

Maybe grammar might be called a heart of sorts, in which case I note that even among ostensibly conservative speakers/ writers, the use of generic "he" as a rule has sharply diminished in favor of the singular "they."

If we look at language construction through linguistic analysis, sure. But daily usage operates more on a 'what's the word for that' level, so a 'what you call people matters' approach makes sense.

The singular 'they' has been considered valid for a long time when following 'someone' (I have physical proof going back to 1992), but its expanded use is a lot more recent.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 11:39:17 AM by Arachne »
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,197
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #79 on: October 20, 2016, 11:44:13 AM »
But really, the idea that the English language discriminates against women in a unique way is preposterous.

Indeed. That's why no one has made such a claim.
Didn't read the article you posted? Not even the title?

There's no claim that the sexism in the English language is in any way unique. ::)
The lack of any comparison coupled with the lack of proof of sexism in English does. ::)
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Section Moderator
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,491
  • November is short. Type fast.
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #80 on: October 20, 2016, 11:48:23 AM »
But really, the idea that the English language discriminates against women in a unique way is preposterous.

Indeed. That's why no one has made such a claim.
Didn't read the article you posted? Not even the title?

There's no claim that the sexism in the English language is in any way unique. ::)
The lack of any comparison coupled with the lack of proof of sexism in English does. ::)

It's an article, written in English and published in an English daily newspaper which circulates in an English-speaking country and is read primarily by monolingual native English speakers. You want comparative linguistic studies, you're looking in the wrong place.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,197
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #81 on: October 20, 2016, 11:58:23 AM »
But really, the idea that the English language discriminates against women in a unique way is preposterous.

Indeed. That's why no one has made such a claim.
Didn't read the article you posted? Not even the title?

There's no claim that the sexism in the English language is in any way unique. ::)
The lack of any comparison coupled with the lack of proof of sexism in English does. ::)

It's an article, written in English and published in an English daily newspaper which circulates in an English-speaking country and is read primarily by monolingual native English speakers. You want comparative linguistic studies, you're looking in the wrong place.
If someone is looking for truth,  they are looking in the wrong place if they are looking in the pronouncements of the commentariat of the (Van)Guard[ian].
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 12:00:36 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Section Moderator
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,491
  • November is short. Type fast.
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #82 on: October 20, 2016, 12:22:32 PM »
But really, the idea that the English language discriminates against women in a unique way is preposterous.

Indeed. That's why no one has made such a claim.
Didn't read the article you posted? Not even the title?

There's no claim that the sexism in the English language is in any way unique. ::)
The lack of any comparison coupled with the lack of proof of sexism in English does. ::)

It's an article, written in English and published in an English daily newspaper which circulates in an English-speaking country and is read primarily by monolingual native English speakers. You want comparative linguistic studies, you're looking in the wrong place.
If someone is looking for truth,  they are looking in the wrong place if they are looking in the pronouncements of the commentariat of the (Van)Guard[ian].

There's plenty more in academic research. That article is only a springboard for anyone interested to look further.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,197
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #83 on: October 20, 2016, 12:49:32 PM »
But really, the idea that the English language discriminates against women in a unique way is preposterous.

Indeed. That's why no one has made such a claim.
Didn't read the article you posted? Not even the title?

There's no claim that the sexism in the English language is in any way unique. ::)
The lack of any comparison coupled with the lack of proof of sexism in English does. ::)

It's an article, written in English and published in an English daily newspaper which circulates in an English-speaking country and is read primarily by monolingual native English speakers. You want comparative linguistic studies, you're looking in the wrong place.
If someone is looking for truth,  they are looking in the wrong place if they are looking in the pronouncements of the commentariat of the (Van)Guard[ian].

There's plenty more in academic research. That article is only a springboard for anyone interested to look further.

They would be better advised not to lean over the precipice of the black hole of Feminist Studies.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 12:50:52 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Section Moderator
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,491
  • November is short. Type fast.
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #84 on: October 20, 2016, 12:50:58 PM »
But really, the idea that the English language discriminates against women in a unique way is preposterous.

Indeed. That's why no one has made such a claim.
Didn't read the article you posted? Not even the title?

There's no claim that the sexism in the English language is in any way unique. ::)
The lack of any comparison coupled with the lack of proof of sexism in English does. ::)

It's an article, written in English and published in an English daily newspaper which circulates in an English-speaking country and is read primarily by monolingual native English speakers. You want comparative linguistic studies, you're looking in the wrong place.
If someone is looking for truth,  they are looking in the wrong place if they are looking in the pronouncements of the commentariat of the (Van)Guard[ian].

There's plenty more in academic research. That article is only a springboard for anyone interested to look further.


Go on, Alice, you know you want to.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,197
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #85 on: October 20, 2016, 01:45:18 PM »
Go on, Alice, you know you want to.
Don't say you were not warned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0JvF9vpqx8
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Section Moderator
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,491
  • November is short. Type fast.
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #86 on: October 20, 2016, 02:05:14 PM »
They would be better advised not to lean over the precipice of the black hole of Feminist Studies.

Nothing wrong with Feminist Studies. A lot more carefully curated than the Guardian, certainly, and peer-reviewed to boot.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox

Offline Rohzek

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,013
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #87 on: October 20, 2016, 02:36:53 PM »
The article is interesting. And I can appreciate its seeming-like pushback against a similar article the day before, whereby the other author called for the scrubbing of words from the dictionary on moral grounds: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/26/rabid-feminist-language-oxford-english-dictionary

Still, I am not at all sure what it is arguing entirely. Is it saying that banning words or eliminating them from the dictionary is NOT going to work and is inherently authoritarian? Or is it suggesting that work still remains to be done in society in general to gradually phase out this use of language? The last few lines aren't very clear:

Quote
Have the achievements of the feminist movement percolated down through the many layers of our language? The Oxford Dictionaries controversy suggests not. Can the words we use to describe women avoid the fate of hussy, mistress and courtesan? There’s hope, but only time will tell.

What exactly does the author mean by the bolded part? The controversy insofar that the OED included the perjorative usage? The controversy about people defending the OED? He isn't very specific.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,197
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #88 on: October 20, 2016, 04:13:16 PM »
They would be better advised not to lean over the precipice of the black hole of Feminist Studies.

Nothing wrong with Feminist Studies. A lot more carefully curated than the Guardian, certainly, and peer-reviewed to boot.
an incestuous clique praising each other doesn't count. If a group of idiots agree on something, that doesn't make it true...just shared idiocy.

At least the Guardian sometimes gets its facts straight.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 04:15:08 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,197
Re: Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language
« Reply #89 on: October 20, 2016, 04:17:02 PM »
The article is interesting. And I can appreciate its seeming-like pushback against a similar article the day before, whereby the other author called for the scrubbing of words from the dictionary on moral grounds: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/26/rabid-feminist-language-oxford-english-dictionary

Still, I am not at all sure what it is arguing entirely. Is it saying that banning words or eliminating them from the dictionary is NOT going to work and is inherently authoritarian? Or is it suggesting that work still remains to be done in society in general to gradually phase out this use of language? The last few lines aren't very clear:

Quote
Have the achievements of the feminist movement percolated down through the many layers of our language? The Oxford Dictionaries controversy suggests not. Can the words we use to describe women avoid the fate of hussy, mistress and courtesan? There’s hope, but only time will tell.

What exactly does the author mean by the bolded part? The controversy insofar that the OED included the perjorative usage? The controversy about people defending the OED? He isn't very specific.
No, it's clear, and it is called "plausible deniability" so they can deny what they are up to while pushing the agenda under the radar.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth