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Author Topic: Peace statement: my ramblings  (Read 2479 times) Average Rating: 0
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Anastasios
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« on: February 22, 2003, 02:36:14 AM »

Stuff like this makes me real mad:

http://www.incommunion.org/resources/iraq.asp

1) Not because I am a war monger.  A few months ago I strongly defended war on Iraq provided that they are pursuing weapons of mass destruction. I believe war is justified if it will prevent Saddam Hussein from developing chemical and biological weapons--even if they will never be used on us, I believe we have the moral responsibility to help others in that region of the world.

Do I want to see war? No. But:

2) To constantly decry war as intrinsically evil and to stand back and let evil rise, like the British did to Hitler, is the truly evil deed.  Christianity teaches us to make responsible decisions and stand up for what is right.  Sitting back and "praying" while not doing something about it is irresponsible.

3) This statement claims, with no proof offerred, that many, many civilians will be killed.  Have we not the technology to seriously cut that down, though?  While I was against the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia, I have to say they did a pretty good job of minimizing civilian deaths!

4) The assertion is made that the Orthodox Church never supported just war.  Well maybe not in its Thomistic fullness but the early Church, which Orthodoxy claims to be, certainly supported war for defense.

5) The "slippery slope" fallacy used against "pre emptive strikes."  OK that makes sense.  If you know someone has a gun and is going to kill his wife, do you wait until she's dead to call the cops??  If we KNOW what Saddam is cooking up there, and can see it right under our eyes, we are supposed to wait until he uses those weapons?? How much sense does THAT make?

Also, slipperly slopisms are contrary to reason in this situation. We are constantly as a nation having to make decisions that will have grave consequences.  There is no slope, but rather each case is evaluated individually.

6) The premiss that these guys actually know the same things that President Bush knows.  He has access to so much more info than us!

7) Lack of knowledge of political science.  That's evident to anyone like me with a Political Science degree. Nothing is as black and white as these folks would like!

----

I'm not opposed to peace-supporters per se (our dear friend Serge is one!) but I am more opposed to the tone of this statement.  Things like that do not help, I think.  Come up with a more reasoned statement, people!

Sorry for the ramble!

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« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2003, 03:15:04 AM »

Anastasios,

I agree with you 100% on all points listed.

To say war is NEVER justified is a rather rash generalization. Was the American Revolution an intrinsically evil war? I mean come on now. As much as war is horrible, it can also sometimes be necessary. Is the war on abortion intrinsically evil? I didn't think so.

We have the technology and are considering usage of an e-bomb, which would render all technological components destroyed, while not touching a single human being. COME ON OCL DO SOME BASIC READING!

Thank you Anastasios for posting what you did.

You are correct, these OCL folks have no concept of political science or basic political issues. They should keep their head turned to theological matters and instead of trying to "butt in" on political matters they should stand back and pray for our political leaders instead.

Let me make some generalizations now, just like they did. I think all the people who signed that list are too wussy to get out there and fight. These are the guys that dodge drafts and flee to Canada. I say we send them to war!

Bobby



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« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2003, 11:18:33 AM »

I think Father Serafim made some good points on war here and here.
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Anastasios
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« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2003, 02:07:55 PM »

After thinking about this more, let me state that I do believe we have a moral imperative to wait as long as possible before engaging war with Iraq. I think President Bush's rhetoric is not helpful but when it comes to what he is ACTUALLY doing, he is going to the Security Council and asking for resolutions, and keeps pushing back the proposed start date.  This is very responsible, I think.

If we can have no peaceful solution, then Saddam needs to be disarmed.  As Christians, we are taught that we must on an individual level act for good.  If we see someone with a gun, we are supposed to go as far as to even take a bullet for someone else if it really comes down to that, right?  If you saw your neighbor being beaten on the street, you'd help, right?  So what gives when people say "it's not the US's business" or "we're not the world's policeman" or "we should just stay out and everything will be better"?  Millions of people are affected by this murderer, yet we're supposed to sit by and say "it's not our problem"?!  Come on! We have the power to act and WE MUST for morality's sake!

And for people that say it's all about oil, come on, get real.  How much of our oil really comes from, or came from, or would come from Iraq anyway?  Venezuela and Saudi Arabia give us lots more oil than Iraq!  And President Bush in his state of the union message said he was going to push for new sources of fuel, such as the hydrogen powered car which ALREADY EXISTS and which runs on water! (saw this over 5 years ago in Scientific American).

In Christ,

anastasios
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« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2003, 02:50:27 PM »

I signed the petition. It's linked to my blog.
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« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2003, 05:03:43 PM »

 Forgive me,I made a mistake and did'nt read the Iraq article till now . I don't think a offensive attack is justified at the present unless Iraq is connected to 9/11,we did'nt complete the 1st objective which was Bin Laden and his terrorist group which should be finished.

I don't think that their stand is cowardly, the Lord said "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God".

Pokoj,
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« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2003, 09:22:50 PM »

Good show by the hierarchs.  Sanity still persists.

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« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2003, 01:00:02 AM »

Forgive me,I made a mistake and did'nt read the Iraq article till now . I don't think a offensive attack is justified at the present unless Iraq is connected to 9/11,we did'nt complete the 1st objective which was Bin Laden and his terrorist group which should be finished.

I don't think that their stand is cowardly, the Lord said "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God".

Pokoj,
james

Blessed are the peacemakers, yes. But I don't think that there will be peace as long as Saddam Hussein is in power.  If we have evidence that Saddam is making biological and chemical weapons (which it seems that more and more this is the case) and since in our modern world that is unacceptable behavior,  he should be stopped, in my opinion.

anastasios
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« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2003, 01:45:49 AM »

Interesting find: perhaps the real reason the French are opposed to the war on Iraq?

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_022103/content/the_chirac_hussein_connection___courtesy_of_stratfor_com.guest.html

Germany opposed to war on Iraq so its oil companies can make money?

http://www.aim.org/publications/media_monitor/2003/02/21.html

The US is not going it alone:

http://www.worldmag.com/world/issue/02-15-03/opening_10.asp

Kurds (and Assyrians, too!) are very happy about the first war on Iraq because now they're free:

http://www.mackinac.org/5008

I don't claim that "proves" my point but it sure shows that simplistic reasonings are not tenable!

In Christ,

anastasios
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« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2003, 09:20:43 AM »

Also the reason there is such a rush to go in by March at the latest is because our boys are going to have to wear chemical suits, and after April its truly going to get to hot to be able to do anything inside of a chemical suit. Remember, we've given him 12 years.

On the terrorism comment above, remember the war on terrorism wasn't just to take out Osama Bi Laden and Al Queda, but all terrorist regimes and those supporting them. And we have sriously curtailed the abilities of and numbers within Al Queda. As President Bush said, that is a 10 year war in itself.
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« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2003, 01:57:27 PM »

1) Not because I am a war monger.  A few months ago I strongly defended war on Iraq provided that they are pursuing weapons of mass destruction. I believe war is justified if it will prevent Saddam Hussein from developing chemical and biological weapons--even if they will never be used on us, I believe we have the moral responsibility to help others in that region of the world.

But where does the moral responsibility stop?  There are dictators oppressing people all over the world.  Do we have a moral responsibility to help them too?  And let's not forget the many injustices done in our own country.  Who knows how many innocent people have been detained since 9/11.  Several thousand at the very least.  Did you know that not one of the prisoners on death row in Nevada had a private attorney?  What Governor Ryan did in Illinois demonstrates pretty clearly in my opinion how immoral our own criminal justice system is.  Our states are killing innocent people in the name of justice when our justice system doesn't even require that someone on trial for their life have an attorney who is awake during the proceedings.  Let me clarify that I don't think the death penalty is immoral but I do think that it's immoral to enforce it in a way that results in the execution of innocent people.  And there's also legalized abortion and the lack of adequate healthcare.  How many Americans die every year because they don't have access to health care?  I certainly don't think we are morally equal to Saddam Hussein but we do not have clean hands.  And our hands have been a lot dirtier at other times in the past and would you have supported an invasion of the US to enforce integration or the outlaw slavery?  

2) To constantly decry war as intrinsically evil and to stand back and let evil rise, like the British did to Hitler, is the truly evil deed.  Christianity teaches us to make responsible decisions and stand up for what is right.  Sitting back and "praying" while not doing something about it is irresponsible.

I think you're judging Britian unfairly here.  What were the British supposed to have done to stop Hitler?  And are the British more culpable than we are given that we refused to allow Jewish refugees from Germany into this country?  During the 1930's when we have ample evidence of the persecution of Jews in Germany, the immigration quotas from Germany were never filled.  And by your standard are we also culpable for allowing Stalin to murder 20 million Russians?  We didn't invade Russia...did we have an obligation to stop that evil?    

3) This statement claims, with no proof offerred, that many, many civilians will be killed.  Have we not the technology to seriously cut that down, though?  While I was against the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia, I have to say they did a pretty good job of minimizing civilian deaths!

How many civilians have been killed in Afghanistan?  My understanding is that more have been killed than we know in the US.  I'm very sceptical about technology and 'smart bombs.'  Regardless of how many civilians will be killed, I think it's certain that some civilians will be killed and why is it only immoral if many are killed?  Wouldn't it be equally immoral if only one was killed?  

5) The "slippery slope" fallacy used against "pre emptive strikes."  OK that makes sense.  If you know someone has a gun and is going to kill his wife, do you wait until she's dead to call the cops??  If we KNOW what Saddam is cooking up there, and can see it right under our eyes, we are supposed to wait until he uses those weapons?? How much sense does THAT make?

What do you think about an abused wife who kills her sleeping husband?  In our legal system, that's not self defense because she wasn't in imminent danger of being abused.  I think that the Church would also condemn such an act although the Church would probably understand the psychological aspects of what she did.  

7) Lack of knowledge of political science.  That's evident to anyone like me with a Political Science degree. Nothing is as black and white as these folks would like!

I'd say that you're also trying to make this black and white.  Where do you draw the line?  What other nations will we have to invade?  

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« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2003, 09:12:02 PM »

A lot of folks using LOTR avatars (genitive absolute), I thought the "hawks" might appreciate this one:

Peace in Middle Earth in our time

MINAS TIRITH (Gondor News Network) - Thousands of peace activists took to the streets of Minas Tirith and other cities of Middle Earth today to protest what they termed a rush to war with Mordor.

“We need more time for diplomacy,” said a key member of the Middle-Earth Security Council, Saruman the White. “I am not convinced by the evidence presented by my esteemed colleague, Gandalf the Grey, or that the Dark Lord Sauron presents an imminent danger to the peoples of the West.”

Many of the people protesting war in Mordor agreed with Saruman’s remarks. “Sauron says he’s destroyed his Rings of Mass Destruction (RMD) and that’s good enough for me,” said one fellow carrying a sign that said “Elrond is a Balrog.” Another demonstrator urged, “Give the RMD inspectors more time. There’s no reason to rush to any judgment just because Mount Doom is belching lava, the Dark Tower is rebuilt, and Osgiliath has been decimated.” A third protester piped up, “I haven’t heard a single bit of convincing evidence connecting the Nazgul with Sauron. I think they destroyed Osgiliath on their own initiative without any support from Sauron. Besides, it’s understandable they’re angry with Gondor. We haven’t done nearly as much for the Orcs and Goblins and Easterlings as the Nazgul and Sauron have. It’s understandable they throw their support to them. It’s our own fault really.”

As the protesters continued their march through the city, they chanted, “No blood for Mount Doom,” voicing a common sentiment that the leaders of the Western peoples are really seeking to get their hands on the powerful Mount Doom, where the One Ring of Power was allegedly forged.

Gandalf the Grey was unavailable for comment. A spokesman said he was in an undisclosed underground location, which sources have revealed is codenamed: Moria.

(from: http://bettnet.dyndns.org/blog/comments.php?id=P641_0_1_0)
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