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Author Topic: Pope tells Catholics to multiply  (Read 11961 times) Average Rating: 0
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Jennifer
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« Reply #90 on: September 12, 2005, 11:42:30 PM »


Jennifer, although I respect the fact that you were raised in the RCC and I do acknowledge that the RCC has done much good in this world, surely you can see the other side of the coin?  On your best day, it would be tough to ever convince a Serbian Orthodox Christian that the RCC is more good than bad.  (We've got the graves to prove it to you).

Maybe us Serbs should just recruit TomS as one of us!  Heck, are name can't get any worse, or could it?  Wink

I think looking at things overall, it's rational to believe that the RCC is more good than bad.  What you're saying reminds me of a Jewish friend of mine who thinks Orthodoxy is just Cossacks going on pogroms.  I know Orthodoxy is more than one time and place and transcends the weaknesses of individual Orthodox people, but as you say "on your best day," you couldn't convince him that all Orthodox people don't hate Jews. 

BTW, I know some Serbian Orthodox people and they have never said to me that they think the RCC is more bad than good.  Most say the same thing as other ethnic Orthodox people I've met, that Roman Catholicism is a lot like Orthodoxy.  (I'm not arguing for that position, btw) 

But I don't think that you can use your personal experience as a justification for Tom's behavior.  He is not Serbian.  He's an American protestant.  If anything, we should have a grudge to bear against him for "Irish Need Not Apply" signs, etc.  He has no graves he can point to to prove the RCC is evil.  He has nothing other than his own bigotry.  And it's bigotry because it's irrational.  I wouldn't accuse you of bigotry because I think your problems with the RCC are rational.  But Tom goes beyond that. 

As for the distinction between individuals and the institution, the good Catholics I've known and loved in my life wouldn't distinguish themselves from the institution.  They would see claims that the RCC is evil as a personal attack on them because they're part of the institution.  How can a good Roman Catholic priest be separated from the institution of the RCC?  Further all of the good that Roman Catholics have done is done in the name of the Catholic Church.  Someone like Mother Cabrini would think it was absurd that that she in spite of the RCC. 

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« Reply #91 on: September 13, 2005, 12:00:00 AM »


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Tom, what you wrote is such nonsense.  I respectfully suggest to you, as fellow worshipper of Christ, that you carefully consider the words of The Lord's Prayer.  I also respectfully suggest that you prayerfully consider the lesson our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ gave about forgiveness in the Gospel according to St. Matthew, chapter 18, verses 21 - 35. 

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arjuna3110
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« Reply #92 on: September 13, 2005, 12:07:05 AM »

That they are consistant I will grant, but so are the Latins...for that matter so are the demons (No one be too offended, I'm not making a comparison, just a point).

Actually, I am offended.  First, Tom had his rantings.  Now, you compared Roman Catholics with demons.  The point you made was unartfully rendered, to put it charitably.

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« Reply #93 on: September 13, 2005, 12:16:42 AM »

While it is not for me to comment on their moral qualities, I can say with some confidence that these people are most certainly not Saints; for we do not list those who are foreign to the Christian Church amongst the Saints who served Her.


Oh come on !  I can understand each Church honoring its own.  But saying that there aren't saints outside of your church?   There are clearly some holy people in Orthodoxy.  But, there are also clearly some holy people in Roman Catholicism too.   They loved God with their whole heart and soul and mind and strrength; and they loved their neighbor as themselves. 

What I find interesting is what our Lord Jesus Christ lists as His criteria for sainthood.  They are listed in the 25th chapter of the Gospel according to St. Matthew.  Belonging to one denomination or another is not on the list.  Instead, feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, giving welcome to the stranger, giving clothes to the naked, giving care to the sick and giving company to the imprisoned are Jesus' criteria for determining whether someone shall enter paradise.  For, "Whatsoever you did to the least of My brothers, that you did unto Me." 
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« Reply #94 on: September 13, 2005, 12:23:32 AM »

Actually, I am offended.ÂÂ  First, Tom had his rantings.ÂÂ  Now, you compared Roman Catholics with demons.ÂÂ  The point you made was unartfully rendered, to put it charitably.

Interpret it as you wish, but that was not the intent...as I said before, I am being unusually kind to the Latins this evening.

Oh come on ! I can understand each Church honoring its own. But saying that there aren't saints outside of your church? There are clearly some holy people in Orthodoxy. But, there are also clearly some holy people in Roman Catholicism too. They loved God with their whole heart and soul and mind and strrength; and they loved their neighbor as themselves.

What I find interesting is what our Lord Jesus Christ lists as His criteria for sainthood. They are listed in the 25th chapter of the Gospel according to St. Matthew. Belonging to one denomination or another is not on the list. Instead, feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, giving welcome to the stranger, giving clothes to the naked, giving care to the sick and giving company to the imprisoned are Jesus' criteria for determining whether someone shall enter paradise. For, "Whatsoever you did to the least of My brothers, that you did unto Me."

Does Rome regard St. Gregory Palamas or St. Mark of Ephesus as Saints? If not, I beg you, for consistancy sake, do not criticize my rejection of the sainthood of Latin 'holy men.'
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« Reply #95 on: September 13, 2005, 12:29:06 AM »

Interpret it as you wish, but that was not the intent...as I said before, I am being unusually kind to the Latins this evening.

Does Rome regard St. Gregory Palamas or St. Mark of Ephesus as Saints? If not, I beg you, for consistancy sake, do not criticize my rejection of the sainthood of Latin 'holy men.'


Holiness doesn't reside in an official declaration by a church or not.  Most of the saints will never be canonized.  Holiness is because a sinner is redemeed and sanctified by God, because they live their lives in union with God, because God is allowed to live in and through them.
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« Reply #96 on: September 13, 2005, 12:33:10 AM »

St Gregory Palamas is a Catholic saint. He is on the Eastern Catholic Calendars and in 1974 was added to the universal calendar by Pope Paul VI at the request of Cardinal Slipyj, says Archbishop Zoghby in his book A Voice from the Byzantine East.

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« Reply #97 on: September 13, 2005, 12:37:28 AM »

Your argument seriously misrepresents the GOC position, but I don't think that worries you too much. For the benefit of people reading, and not because I think I can actually get anywhere with you personally, I will respond to your post.ÂÂ  The GOC does not beleive the Orthodox Church is in heresy.ÂÂ  The GOC believes it is the Orthodox Church and that your local Church is in heresy and no longer the Orthodox Church.ÂÂ  You are cleverly trying to defeat the GOC position based on an argument from authority; however, since the authority in question is disputed you are not going to be successful.

You seem to misrepresent my posistion as well, I argue from two perspectives simultaniously. The first and greatest is based on the Authority of the Church, this is true; but also, I argue that the Patriarchate of Constantinople is upholding Orthodoxy by her Actions, thus making those who claim Her Orthodox Actions are heretical, must, rationally speaking, he heretical themselves, for they stand at odds with the Orthodox Teachings of Constantinople. Now, we could probably go on for many pages about the theological arguments, but I believe that, in both our cases, our posistions are shaped primarily by experience, with academic arguments comming later, thus only by a change in experience could our posistions change, and probably quite a dramatic change in both our cases.

Quote
You believe the EP is the Church; the GOC does not.  Because the GOC does not believe the EP is the Orthodox Church, it is obliged to separate from it.  If you turn out to be right, one would hope that God will have mercy on the GOC precisely because it followed the canons of the Church and separated from what it perceives as heresy.  If of course the GOC is right, one would hope that God will have mercy on the New Calendarists for staying in communion with the EP, which would be the logical thing to do provided the EP is Orthodox.

This part of the statement seems dangerously close to theological relativism; and while my soteriology is very forgiving, it doesn't excuse (even if it may forgive) either schism or heresy.
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« Reply #98 on: September 13, 2005, 12:50:32 AM »

St Gregory Palamas is a Catholic saint. He is on the Eastern Catholic Calendars and in 1974 was added to the universal calendar by Pope Paul VI at the request of Cardinal Slipyj, says Archbishop Zoghby in his book A Voice from the Byzantine East.

That is most interesting as the west has long held that the distinction between Divine Essence and Divine Energy and Operation, with the latter being observable as stated in the Tomos of 1351, to be heretical; and has long regarded St. Gregory Palamas, the primary advocate of this Theology to be a heresiarch.
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« Reply #99 on: September 13, 2005, 12:51:16 AM »

You've gone too far this time.ÂÂ  I've just reported you and I hope the moderators put a stop to this kind of bigotry.ÂÂ  This bigot wants the church that I spent several years building to burn to the ground.ÂÂ  This bigot wants the church I was raised in to be burned to the ground.ÂÂ  



I entirely concur. I've also reported this abusive and unChristian posting. I hope that something will be done to curb this sort of hate-speech or I'm afraid I've landed in the wrong forum. Hatred of this sort has no place in the vocabulary of ANY Christian... period. Undecided
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« Reply #100 on: September 13, 2005, 12:55:31 AM »

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But, there are also clearly some holy people in Roman Catholicism too.   They loved God with their whole heart and soul and mind and strrength; and they loved their neighbor as themselves.

There is a clear sense of disordered spirituality in the Catholic Church: for some reason, torturing oneself is considered 'holy.' Case in point: Opus Dei, favoured by John Paul II. Many of it's members wear hairshirts, which used to be a rought cloth worn in penance, but changed in the Medieval times to be a spiked metal belt and this became known as a "cilice." There's also the practice of flagellation; Dominic beat himself with a metal chain.

There is an overbearing idea in Catholicism that pain is holy. Now, there is a difference between true forms of penance, like fasting, and false ones, such as inflicting pain. Besides being psychologically unhealthy, false penance is aggressive against oneself, but passive ones are natural and encouraged by Christ himself.

Take this quotation from Josemaira Escriva, in his book The Way, 208: "Let us bless pain. Love pain. Sanctify pain... Glorify pain!"

Quote
Belonging to one denomination or another is not on the list.

But Orthodoxy is not just another denomination, it is the indivisible Church of Christ. The Fathers, preserving the doctrine of the Apostles, hold that there is no salvation outside the Church: we can never, therefore, be sure of the salvation of those without the Church, no matter how good or holy they may seem. Of course, the Lord saves whomever he chooses, but we certainly can never be sure of their salvation as when the Church proclaims saints.

PS. JP II had devotion to an Orthodox saint, I believe. This and the fact that St. Gregory Palamas is in the Catholic calendar would mean then, logically, that submission to the Pontifex Romanus is certainly not necessary for salvation and the Catholic Church has contradicted itself.
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« Reply #101 on: September 13, 2005, 01:00:26 AM »

It would appear that I've stumbled into a hotbed of bigots. I had no idea that someone who brands the pope as the anti-Christ and the Roman Catholic Church as a cesspool as well as the Church of Satan would be so vigorously defended when challenged. Indeed... it is we who ask for circumspect speech who are told to stop branding Tom with mud. Excuse me... but could you possibly take a look at the trigger words here, Sir? Cesspool? Church of Satan? Anti-Christ? Please... get a grip, Man.  Shocked
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« Reply #102 on: September 13, 2005, 01:05:15 AM »

Since there is currently no moderator for this subsection and since the two global moderators have not checked in yet, I will just step in and say Tom, please apologize for your comment about Catholic Churches burning to the ground.

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« Reply #103 on: September 13, 2005, 01:08:55 AM »

You seem to misrepresent my posistion as well, I argue from two perspectives simultaniously. The first and greatest is based on the Authority of the Church, this is true; but also, I argue that the Patriarchate of Constantinople is upholding Orthodoxy by her Actions, thus making those who claim Her Orthodox Actions are heretical, must, rationally speaking, he heretical themselves, for they stand at odds with the Orthodox Teachings of Constantinople. Now, we could probably go on for many pages about the theological arguments, but I believe that, in both our cases, our posistions are shaped primarily by experience, with academic arguments comming later, thus only by a change in experience could our posistions change, and probably quite a dramatic change in both our cases.

But I have extensive experience in both the New Calendar and Old Calendar Greek Churches while you only have experience in the New Calendar Greek Church. So you will once again be defeated mwuhahahahahahaahahahah Wink  Seriously, though, it was academic arguments that changed me, not primarily experience, as I tend to have good experiences in both bodies.

Quote
This part of the statement seems dangerously close to theological relativism; and while my soteriology is very forgiving, it doesn't excuse (even if it may forgive) either schism or heresy.

I am not a relativist. I clearly believe in the GOC but I am here discussing both points of view.

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« Reply #104 on: September 13, 2005, 01:09:08 AM »

Frankly Tom's wish that the Roman Catholic churches burn to the ground could be construed as a veiled threat and should receive the severest censure.
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« Reply #105 on: September 13, 2005, 01:09:39 AM »

Frankly it could be construed as a veiled threat and should receive the severest censure.

I know Tom personally and it is not a veiled threat.  It is highly rude and unacceptable for our forum though.

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« Reply #106 on: September 13, 2005, 01:42:36 AM »

Sorry I'm late.

TomS, I've put you on a leash for a few days which is going to be a bl**dy pain for us moderators as we have to OK all of your posts in the mean time. I only check my email twice a day though, so your posts may sit in limbo for a while.

John the BMFH
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« Reply #107 on: September 13, 2005, 03:24:26 AM »

I fully support the actions of the moderators in this regard, and I think it's wise.

And granted, I only know TomS from online, but before anyone judges him too harshly, I think his recent online behaviour is out of character even for him. I really think he is a good man, and much of what he says is just "testing the waters" (or just plain teasing). This, however, seems different. We don't know anyone's story on this forum, so we shouldn't be too quick to judge just from what they write. Of course, I'm in no way advocating that people should be permitted to be as rude and offensive online as they like. What I am saying is that...well...this just didn't sound at all like "our TomS", and none of us knows what is going on for him at the moment.

Just look at TomS' past posts....he can be annoying, he can be challenging, but never has he come out with this sort of rudeness and offensive language before. If one of my horses becomes aggressive and starts kicking, it's usually because they have a wound or a bruised fetlock that needs some TLC. Same goes for people.
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« Reply #108 on: September 13, 2005, 04:44:53 AM »

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If you are a member of the Orthodox Church and you think otherwise - then you are basically saying that it does not matter which church you belong to.

Do you feel there is Salvation in the Roman Catholic church? If you do, then why did you leave it? And please, go BACK TO IT!!!

You say such things to people who have joined the Orthodox Church? Don't you understand this is actually doing harm to your Church? You are pretty much forcing them away.
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« Reply #109 on: September 13, 2005, 07:34:30 AM »

You say such things to people who have joined the Orthodox Church? Don't you understand this is actually doing harm to your Church? You are pretty much forcing them away.

I am sure (call it a "gut" feeling) that he was not in his right mind when he wrote these things. Look at all his posts in the past...he may have been annoying, but he was never viscious or malicious before....This is too out of character to be normal. We all "lose it" sometimes.
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« Reply #110 on: September 13, 2005, 08:00:04 AM »

But I have extensive experience in both the New Calendar and Old Calendar Greek Churches while you only have experience in the New Calendar Greek Church. So you will once again be defeated mwuhahahahahahaahahahah WinkÂÂ  Seriously, though, it was academic arguments that changed me, not primarily experience, as I tend to have good experiences in both bodies.

Of course, I could come back and say that thus is the danger of associating with those outside the Church Wink I'm guessing that had you lacked this experience with these kind, yet misguided, people you probably wouldn't have been as likely to take up their cause.
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« Reply #111 on: September 13, 2005, 08:06:49 AM »

You say such things to people who have joined the Orthodox Church? Don't you understand this is actually doing harm to your Church? You are pretty much forcing them away.

'I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.'

Furthermore, while TomS was probably somewhat uncharitable in his posts, the Latin Church more than deserves any and all hostility that is thrown their way. Even if they are innocent of a given charge, they have done enough evil elsewhere to make up for it; we must not forget that they are responsible for the sacking of our cities, the murder of our peple, the rape of our women, and the destruction of our Christian faith. Of course, if they truly ask for forgiveness it should be granted, but the fact that they are still in posession of our relics and still outside of our faith clearly demonstrates that they have not; let us seek reconciliation, but let us also recognize that much of the work of Rome for the past thousand years has been the work of Satan against the Church of Christ, and as witnessed in the Balkans over the last century, this working of evil continues.
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« Reply #112 on: September 13, 2005, 08:17:46 AM »

It would appear that I've stumbled into a hotbed of bigots. I had no idea that someone who brands the pope as the anti-Christ and the Roman Catholic Church as a cesspool as well as the Church of Satan would be so vigorously defended when challenged. Indeed... it is we who ask for circumspect speech who are told to stop branding Tom with mud. Excuse me... but could you possibly take a look at the trigger words here, Sir? Cesspool? Church of Satan? Anti-Christ? Please... get a grip, Man.ÂÂ  Shocked

Yes, I looked carefully at the "trigger words" and they were/are indeed inappropriate (as I stated originally).ÂÂ  However, I've been around here a tad bit longer than you and I've been exposed to much more of TomS than you, and my words about Tom were based on my experience having known him (albeit online) for some time now.

Often, I feel as though TomS likes to get a rise out of people, but that doesn't make him a bigot.ÂÂ  In fact, IMHO, Tom is the exact opposite of a bigot.ÂÂ  He obviously has strong feelings about the RCC and he expressed them (rather poorly).ÂÂ  Kind of the same way the RCC expressed her opinions (rather poorly) when dealing with the "Serbian problem" in the Balkans, or the sacking of our cities, etc...
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« Reply #113 on: September 13, 2005, 08:29:35 AM »

Often, I feel as though TomS likes to get a rise out of people, but that doesn't make him a bigot.ÂÂ  In fact, IMHO, Tom is the exact opposite of a bigot.ÂÂ

Hear Hear!
(With apologies to Tom for the horse analogy!)
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« Reply #114 on: September 13, 2005, 09:40:51 AM »

The moderators have done the right thing here by stepping in.  I agree that TomS's behavior was unusual for him however he's shown his bigotry towards the RCC before.  I've been told by RCs who have visited this forum that he has harassed them with anti-Catholic PMs. 

Now as for GiC, he chooses his words very carefully so one can be sure that he intends to write what he writes.  I don't think he lets his emotions get in the way like TomS.  However, I believe that GiC sees this forum as a playground.  He likes to play with people by writing things that he knows will incite them. 

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« Reply #115 on: September 13, 2005, 10:13:48 AM »

Jennifer,
The judgements you have passed on TomS & GiC are noted......and disagreed with.
Thank you,
George


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« Reply #116 on: September 13, 2005, 10:19:11 AM »

And before you make any more libellous claims Jennifer, I think you should know that the moderators can in fact read pms. So if they cannot substantiate your claim that TomS has sent harrassing pms, I expect you to publically retract your slanderous claim and ask his forgiveness.
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« Reply #117 on: September 13, 2005, 10:26:03 AM »

Jennifer,

Please PM me the names of people that Tom has harassed via our PM system and approximate dates. If you don't want to do this, please remove this charge from your above post.  I am not condoning Tom's actions but you have made a charge and I would like to investigate it.

Thanks!

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« Reply #118 on: September 13, 2005, 10:28:47 AM »

If anyone had been harassed by anyone via PM, I would hope they would immediately bring it to the attention of the Admins and moderators. Since no one has ever done so in regards to TomS in the past, I have to take the allegations with a grain of salt.

I hope Jennifer will retract her claim and apologise.
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« Reply #119 on: September 13, 2005, 10:30:51 AM »

If the language used recently by a number of posters and not just Tom, was not blatant bigotry, I'd like to know just how the word is defined around here. Furthermore, it's been my experience that most Orthodox Christians are far more loving and charitable in speaking with and about "other" Christians. Calling Roman Catholics Latins, for instance, is yet another example of provocative, mean-spirited language. And to say, "the Latin Church more than deserves any and all hostility that is thrown their way is clearly yet another sad example of bigotry AFAIC..

Surely you cannot for a single minute believe that the recent posts regarding other Christians has demonstrated the love and concern that should be the hallmark of a Christian. I know that all of you are acquainted with the expression: we know where the Church is but we do not know where it is not. I've certainly no illusions that only Orthodox Christians comprise the Body of Christ. I'm convinced, as is my priest and bishop, that our Lord has "other" sheep as it were in other churches and that includes the Roman Catholic Church. I fully understand that there are great animosities existing here particularly among those of certain ethnic backgrounds for past grievances. But they are past and they should be left in the past. It's time to go forward and stop revisiting the past. To liken the Church today to some Satanic organization that deserves all the hostility that can be thrown its way" is so completely anathema to the Christian way of life that I'm amazed no one here has condemned such outright hate-speech. Our speech betrays our hearts. You know this as well as I. Please... let's cut the unloving descriptives of other Christians. If you are concerned about their welfare (and you SHOULD be), then I might add that you have a very strange way indeed of showing it. If I were a Catholic who had somehow stumbled upon this discussion, I would not only be deeply offended but I would in all probability run as fast as I could in the opposite direction.
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« Reply #120 on: September 13, 2005, 10:33:53 AM »

Jennifer,
The judgements you have passed on TomS & GiC are noted......and disagreed with.
Thank you,
George




Correction. The judgments are noted and disagreed with by YOU and a few others. I happen to strongly concur with Jennifer's judgments regarding the recent speech of these two individuals. Granted, I do not have enough information to make a definitive judgment, but certainly based upon the language used yesterday I would have to side with Jennifer.

Regards,
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« Reply #121 on: September 13, 2005, 10:40:00 AM »

I happen to strongly concur with Jennifer's judgments regarding the recent speech of these two individuals.
Good for you.....
The matter has been dealt with by the moderators, and TomS has graciously accepted their decision.....get over it.
The matter at hand is that Jennifer has made claims about TomS which are slanderous lies unless she can prove them (which I doubt she can).

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« Reply #122 on: September 13, 2005, 10:42:30 AM »

Stamfordguy,

In calling Roman Catholics Latins we are merely following the lead of our teacher St. Nikodemos the Haghiorite.

As for the poster who says the RCC deserves all the animosity that can be thrown its way, I find that post just as offensive as you do.  However, this is his opinion and he has not broken any forum rules. The forum relies on both moderatorial oversight and self-policing, which is what concerned persons such as yourself do when they report posts, complain in public, etc.  We appreciate it.  The thing is, in our experience, overmoderating people results in more problems than it solves.

I cannot agree with your statement about moving beyond the past though because the RCC has not repented of its relic stealing, participation in the murders of Serbs during WWII, or heresy.  I don't hold any animosity towards the RCC like some here but it's not time to embrace their Church as a sister Church.

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« Reply #123 on: September 13, 2005, 10:44:47 AM »

I am closing this thread as soon as the people still posting in it finish.
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« Reply #124 on: September 13, 2005, 10:57:40 AM »

If the language used recently by a number of posters and not just Tom, was not blatant bigotry, I'd like to know just how the word is defined around here. Furthermore, it's been my experience that most Orthodox Christians are far more loving and charitable in speaking with and about "other" Christians. Calling Roman Catholics Latins, for instance, is yet another example of provocative, mean-spirited language. And to say, "the Latin Church more than deserves any and all hostility that is thrown their way is clearly yet another sad example of bigotry AFAIC..

I tend to avoid the term 'Roman Catholic' because from our point of view, it is simply inaccurate. The Latin Church is not the Roman Church, the Orthodox Church is the Roman Church, for Constantinople is the Imperial See; it was in New Rome, not Old Rome, where the Christian Emperors ruled. Furthermore, it is most certainly not a catholic church, for the Latins are out of Communion with the Universal Church. The reason I use the term 'Latin' is because it seems, to me at least, more charitable than the term 'papist,' though I can begin using the latter if you would prefer.

Quote
Surely you cannot for a single minute believe that the recent posts regarding other Christians has demonstrated the love and concern that should be the hallmark of a Christian. I know that all of you are acquainted with the expression: we know where the Church is but we do not know where it is not. I've certainly no illusions that only Orthodox Christians comprise the Body of Christ. I'm convinced, as is my priest and bishop, that our Lord has "other" sheep as it were in other churches and that includes the Roman Catholic Church. I fully understand that there are great animosities existing here particularly among those of certain ethnic backgrounds for past grievances. But they are past and they should be left in the past. It's time to go forward and stop revisiting the past. To liken the Church today to some Satanic organization that deserves all the hostility that can be thrown its way" is so completely anathema to the Christian way of life that I'm amazed no one here has condemned such outright hate-speech. Our speech betrays our hearts. You know this as well as I. Please... let's cut the unloving descriptives of other Christians. If you are concerned about their welfare (and you SHOULD be), then I might add that you have a very strange way indeed of showing it. If I were a Catholic who had somehow stumbled upon this discussion, I would not only be deeply offended but I would in all probability run as fast as I could in the opposite direction.

While I am an ecumenist, and have elsewhere defended the ecumenist movement, what I desire to see relative to Rome is a true conversion and return to the Christian faith. I do not advocate reunion without a fundamental change to the Latin church, but I sincerely pray that we can effect a conversion of them to the Christian faith, and see a return of the Latins to Christianity in humility and obedience to the Church; not that I'm optimistic, but we should at least give it a try. As far as labeling the Conduct of the Latin Church 'Satanic,' what other term would you recommend I use for those who destroy our cities, invade the nations of the Orthodox, steal our relics, murder our Faithful, live in schism and heresy, and blaspheme against our God? Surely you dont expect me to use the adjective 'angelic' in reference to such actions.

Finally, while I would say that we know where the Holy Spirit is, yet not where He is not, I believe we can be quite certain where the Church both is and is not. It was established by Christ and has been Preserved through the Ages, and in Her ranks are neither heretics nor schismatics.
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« Reply #125 on: September 13, 2005, 11:12:19 AM »

Good for you.....
The matter has been dealt with by the moderators, and TomS has graciously accepted their decision.....get over it.
The matter at hand is that Jennifer has made claims about TomS which are slanderous lies unless she can prove them (which I doubt she can).



Get over it? Tom has graciously accepted their decision? Jennifer has made slanderous lies? You doubt she can prove them? Perhaps you would be well advised by the adage, "Physician, heal thyself."
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« Reply #126 on: September 13, 2005, 11:14:45 AM »

Get over it? Tom has graciously accepted their decision? Jennifer has made slanderous lies? You doubt she can prove them? Perhaps you would be well advised by the adage, "Physician, heal thyself."
Well, let's wait and see if Jennifer can prove it shall we?
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« Reply #127 on: September 13, 2005, 11:17:15 AM »

Stamfordguy,

In calling Roman Catholics Latins we are merely following the lead of our teacher St. Nikodemos the Haghiorite.

As for the poster who says the RCC deserves all the animosity that can be thrown its way, I find that post just as offensive as you do.  However, this is his opinion and he has not broken any forum rules. The forum relies on both moderatorial oversight and self-policing, which is what concerned persons such as yourself do when they report posts, complain in public, etc.  We appreciate it.  The thing is, in our experience, overmoderating people results in more problems than it solves.

I cannot agree with your statement about moving beyond the past though because the RCC has not repented of its relic stealing, participation in the murders of Serbs during WWII, or heresy.  I don't hold any animosity towards the RCC like some here but it's not time to embrace their Church as a sister Church.

Anastasios

Who said anything about embracing their Church as a sister Church? I'm simply saying that we need to speak with more charity about other Christians.
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« Reply #128 on: September 13, 2005, 11:26:42 AM »

If anyone had been harassed by anyone via PM, I would hope they would immediately bring it to the attention of the Admins and moderators. Since no one has ever done so in regards to TomS in the past, I have to take the allegations with a grain of salt.

I hope Jennifer will retract her claim and apologise.

I checked my PMs and the PMs I received that referenced harassing PMs from Tom are gone.  Wasn't there some system change several months ago that erased old PMs?  I don't remember who contacted me about this.  She briefly posted here and was offended by Tom's spiteful comments about the RCC.  I contacted her to let her know that Tom didn't speak for most of us and she told me that she had received several PMs from Tom which she considered to be harrassment.  I told her to send them to the moderators.  This was about the end of last year. 

If he didn't do it then I apologize. 
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« Reply #129 on: September 13, 2005, 11:31:45 AM »

If he didn't do it then I apologize.ÂÂ  

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts........

How about: "I have no evidence that TomS made harrassing pms, therefore, I retract my charge and apologise to him."
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« Reply #130 on: September 13, 2005, 11:38:29 AM »

Good for you.....
The matter has been dealt with by the moderators, and TomS has graciously accepted their decision.....get over it.
The matter at hand is that Jennifer has made claims about TomS which are slanderous lies unless she can prove them (which I doubt she can).



I can't prove it because my PMs from that time period were erased.  However, I believe what that person told me.  I'm not surprised that he would write in a PM what he written publicly here, that the RCC is evil.  This person was a good Roman Catholic who came here to learn more about Orthodoxy and was bombarded (according to her) with PMs from Tom about how evil the RCC was.  She considered it to be harrassment.  If I visited an RC board and received numerous PMs arguing that the Orthodox Church was "evil" I would also consider it harassment. ÂÂ

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« Reply #131 on: September 13, 2005, 11:42:42 AM »

I can't prove it because my PMs from that time period were erased.  However, I believe what that person told me.  I'm not surprised that he would write in a PM what he written publicly here, that the RCC is evil.  This person was a good Roman Catholic who came here to learn more about Orthodoxy and was bombarded (according to her) with PMs from Tom about how evil the RCC was.  She considered it to be harrassment.  If I visited an RC board and received numerous PMs arguing that the Orthodox Church was "evil" I would also consider it harassment.

With all due respect, this is entirely 100%, unadulterated hearsay and not worthy of discussion.

Please do not accuse someone of PM harrassment based upon the uncorroborated word of another (which has since been erased).  This is hearsay, piled on hearsay.
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« Reply #132 on: September 13, 2005, 11:43:13 AM »

I can't prove it because my PMs from that time period were erased.  However, I believe what that person told me.  I'm not surprised that he would write in a PM what he written publicly here, that the RCC is evil.  This person was a good Roman Catholic who came here to learn more about Orthodoxy and was bombarded (according to her) with PMs from Tom about how evil the RCC was.  She considered it to be harrassment.  If I visited an RC board and received numerous PMs arguing that the Orthodox Church was "evil" I would also consider it harassment. ÂÂ
Well then, tell the moderators who she was, so they can investigate it......
Don't tell me you've forgoitten her name after what must have been a long series of exchanges between you and her. Or did she randomnly pick a name out from the memberlist to pour her heart out to and only did this in one pm to you?
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« Reply #133 on: September 13, 2005, 12:10:48 PM »

OK people. Robert has the lost PM's on his computer at home. We are intending to restore them as soon as we have time (remember he works full time AND goes to school full time).  At any rate, I will look at the PM's in question, etc., but for right now this thread needs to be closed. How about we all just cool down and bury the hatchet.

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« Reply #134 on: September 13, 2005, 05:07:24 PM »

I've been told by RCs who have visited this forum that he has harassed them with anti-Catholic PMs.ÂÂ  

That is an outright LIE!

Ask ANYBODY on this board if I have EVER sent them a harassing PM !

In fact - I ask Bobby or any other person with the skills to do so, to go back through ALL my PM's and provide this proof.

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