Topic: Pope tells Catholics to multiply

[JoeS]

Thursday September 1, 3:15 AM   
Pope tells Catholics to multiply
 
 
Pope Benedict XVI told Catholics to have more babies "for the good of society," saying that some countries were being sapped of energy because of low birth rates.

"Having children is a gift that brings life and well-being to society," he told about 15,000 people at his weekly audience in the Vatican, to which he arrived by helicopter from his summer residence southeast of Rome.

He said the decline in the number of births "deprives some nations of freshness and energy and of hopes for the future incarnate in children."

The pope also spoke of "the security, the stability and the force of a numerous family."

Although the Vatican bans all forms of articial contraception, this is widely ignored even in predominantly Catholic countries such as Italy and Spain, which have some of the lowest birth rates in the world.

The pontiff regretted that God is "unhappily often excluded or ignored" in many societies.

"A sound society certainly is born out of the commitment of all of its members, but it also has a need of the blessing and support of God," he said.

 

[FrChris]

Guess what...The Pope is right on target here! 

[Augustine]

Frankly, the Europeans will deserve it if/when they are over-run by Muslims, who have no problem spitting out kids and making the sacrifices necessarily to have at least moderately sized families (sorry to inform people, but three or four kids is not a "big family").  They've abandoned God, both practically and theoretically, and have few children.  IOW, they have nothing going for them, in the face of a fertile, zealous people (like the Muslims.)

As a Canadian, this is something which gets under my skin here too.  There are so many born, white Canadians who endlessly complain about the changing complexion of their country due to immigration.  Yet the fact of the matter is, these same whites don't have children, and certainly not in the numbers needed to replace themselves, let alone populate our vastly under-populated, resource rich nation.  So, if it takes bringing in east-Indians, Pakistanis, Chinese, etc. to keep the wheels turning, well t.s..

[Philokalia]

Frankly, the Europeans will deserve it if/when they are over-run by Muslims, who have no problem spitting out kids

Thats a fairly disgusting way of describing the miracle of childbirth. Do you think Muslims should use condoms or have abortions?

[TomS]

Seems to me that ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS.

He needs to let priests marry and start having large families. THEN they could RELATE to their flock. You think the RCC will ever have a pope with a brain?

[Silouan]

That is a bit over the top there, Tom - are you not getting enough attention at home again?

Despite not agreeing with Papal positions calling the recent popes brainless is quite absurd.  And interestingly enough before becoming a pope Karol Wojtyla wrote a very good book on this very topic, Love and Responsibility.  And to be sure Cardinal Ratzinger was one the most important recent Catholic theologians - so calling them brainless is really only a reflection of your diminished intellectual capability.  I do agree that the failure to differentiate a monastic vocation from the priesthood has been a source of problems for the Catholic Church, but it is a small problem compared to the bigger picture. 

[GiC]

Thats a fairly disgusting way of describing the miracle of childbirth. Do you think Muslims should use condoms or have abortions?

I dont know about abortions, but condoms would probably be a good idea; the world is not yet overpopulated to the extent that we lack resources, but if 8+ kids in a family were to be the norm we would soon reach that point. Furthermore, an unfortunate reality is that the areas where population expansion is most devistating also have the highest birth rate; while Canada may be under populated (though I doubt it, they do have enough people to harvest the resources they want to, don't they?), countries like China and India are certainly overpopulated. Also, in many European countries, there is currently a problem with overpopulation (the Netherlands comes to mind), though it will probably be dealt with, in time, because of a low birth rate; provided immigration isn't too high.

Am I suggesting we go to the extremes of China? Of course not, but people hardly need to be encouraged to procreate, enough do quite well on their own, we're not yet in danger of extinction; a more helpful decree from the Vatican may be one lifting the ban on, and perhaps even encouraging, birth control.

[Philokalia]

The world is not overpopulated. There are more than enough resources to meet the needs of all the worlds inhabitants. The stumbling block in achieving a fair distribution of the worlds goods is greed in particular and sin in general. The Saintly John Paul clearly enunciated the Catholic viewpoint on this http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/family/documents/rc_pc_family_doc_20031018_riflessioni-trujillo_en.html

The Holy Father has been the universal advocate of the family's fundamental rights at important world meetings, with heads of State, in Parliaments and in conversations with politicians. He has been a determined champion of the rights of all poor families and poor peoples subjected to the arbitrary policies of the powerful who, with no respect for their sovereignty, overwhelm them with pressures and undue demands that are incompatible with their culture and dignity. So it was that his authoritative words rang out in the face of the myth of overpopulation that serves as an excuse for birth control, disrespectful or inhumane, with policies that are the tools of the new ideologies which exploit the weakest.

He has rejected the Neo-Malthusian concept that excludes the most deprived from the banquet of life and gives priority to the domination and opulence of the powerful. He unflinchingly takes up the challenge of Paul VI's Address to the General Assembly of the United Nations (4 October 1965): "Your task is to ensure that the harvest of humanity yields food in abundance and does not presage artificial birth control, that would be logical, aiming at reducing the number of those invited to the banquet of life".

Incidentally Pope Benedicts remarks were part of an ongoing Catechesis on the Psalms at his weekly audience. On this occasion he was referring to Psalm 126 (127) which says
3 Sons are indeed a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward.
4 Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the sons of one's youth.
5 Happy is the man who has his quiver full of them. He shall not be put to shame when he speaks with his enemies in the gate.

So the Holy Fathers Comments seem reasonable, you can see them at http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2005/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20050831_en.html

[TomS]

That is a bit over the top there, Tom ...

So is ignoring pedophilia. The RCC is a cesspool and the pope is the anti-christ!

- are you not getting enough attention at home again?

The attention I get at home are the things you dream about.

[GiC]

"Your task is to ensure that the harvest of humanity yields food in abundance and does not presage artificial birth control, that would be logical, aiming at reducing the number of those invited to the banquet of life"

So can I assume that the Latin church has now come out in support of Fornication and Adultery? As both of these would help increase 'the number of those invited to the banquet of life.'

I'm not going to comment on the over all intelligence of Paul VI, but I will say that his logic was flawed and that this particular statement was poorly thoughtout; I hope he fired that speech writer.

[Philokalia]

So can I assume that the Latin church has now come out in support of Fornication and Adultery? As both of these would help increase 'the number of those invited to the banquet of life.'

I'm not going to comment on the over all intelligence of Paul VI, but I will say that his logic was flawed and that this particular statement was poorly thoughtout; I hope he fired that speech writer.

Where did Pope Paul talk about "increase"?

[Silouan]

The attention I get at home are the things you dream about.

No actually.  The path I'm choosing for my life is radically different than anything you could imagine.  Hopefully you will stop deluding yourself with anti-ecclesiastical psuedo-scholars that you can't even defend before it's too late. 

[GiC]

Where did Pope Paul talk about "increase"?

Oh, he doesn't want an increase? Then, in that case, he should have had no problem with Birth Control.

[Philokalia]

Oh, he doesn't want an increase? Then, in that case, he should have had no problem with Birth Control.

I asked not what he wanted but what he actually said. Since you mentioned his speechwriter this seems relevant. So where in his speech to Paul VI say "increase"? Or did you just misquote him because insulting Catholics is more important than fidelity to facts?

[GiC]

I asked not what he wanted but what he actually said. Since you mentioned his speechwriter this seems relevant. So where in his speech to Paul VI say "increase"? Or did you just misquote him because insulting Catholics is more important than fidelity to facts?

Ok, let me try this again in a more ovbious manner, to satisfy the logic impaired among us (i.e. those who cannot grasp the concept of increase and reduce being antonyms):

'So can I assume that the Latin church has now come out in opposistion to moral codes against Fornication and Adultery? As these moral codes, like birth control, help to reduce "the number of those invited to the banquet of life."'

Now please tell me I dont have to explain the grammatical relationship between 'to reduce' and 'reducing.' LOL

And finally, while I have no doubt Paul VI opposed birth control, here I am generous in criticizing his speech writer for the simple reason that there are effective ways to defend a bad posistion and foolish ways to defend one, the example you gave was a example of a foolish way and dare I say unbecomming of the vatican, which I often admire for their skills at propaganda. If I were defending birth control before the UN, I would focus on ineffectiveness of birth control, using statistics tailored to my purpose, and argue that free access to birth control encourages behaviour that spreads disease and finally accuse the proponents of birth control availability in the third world of racism, imperialism, and even a type of genocide. Now THAT would be a propaganda speech worthy of the Vatican and it might actually have had some effect other than making the Pope look like a fool before the represenatives of the rulers of the world.

[rosborn]

So is ignoring pedophilia. The RCC is a cesspool and the pope is the anti-christ!

This has to be the most absolute moronic thing I have ever seen written.  Thank God, I know this isn't indicative of Orthodox Christians.

Rob

[TomS]

This has to be the most absolute moronic thing I have ever seen written.ÂÂ  Thank God, I know this isn't indicative of Orthodox Christians.

It is of the TRUE Orthodox. They adhere to the truth that the pope is anti-christ!

No force on zealot monks

The Istanbul-based Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople and the Mt Athos monastic community have opted for stealth rather than force in their efforts to evict some 100 ultra-Orthodox monks from the Esphigmenou Monastery.

The abbots of the other 19 Mt Athos monasteries met yesterday at Karyes, the community’s administrative center, to decide on further action against the Esphigmenou monks whom they asked to leave the monastery in December 2002. The most likely course of action, it appeared last night, is to establish another monastic community, decare it the legal proprietors of the monastery and settle it temporarily elsewhere.

Last March, Greece’s Council of State, the highest administrative court, rejected an appeal by Esphigmenou’s abbot, Methodios, to nullify the eviction order by the Patriarchate and the monastic community. The court said it had no jurisdiction over the matter, adding that the Patriarchate has absolute authority over the community. The Esphigmenou monks broke with the mainstream Orthodox Church in 1964, when Patriarch Athenagoras met with Pope John VI. The ultra-Orthodox regard the pope as evil incarnate.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100011_03/09/2005_60363

Just because a majority of the Orthodox have been sucked into the whole "we are sister churches" lie, does not mean that all have been.

[rosborn]

It is of the TRUE Orthodox. They adhere to the truth that the pope is anti-christ!

You are the anti-christ, Tom.

Rob

[Armando]

You think the RCC will ever have a pope with a brain?

So you think John Paul the Great was brainless...
I understand this is an Orthodox forum but it is also CHRISTIAN.
Being an orthodox forum doesn't give anyone the right to insult and offense a person
admired and considered saint to 1.5 BILLION peope. Or maybe u think you're the only one out there
with a brain...?

[Anastasios]

If I were defending birth control before the UN, I would focus on ineffectiveness of birth control, using statistics tailored to my purpose, and argue that free access to birth control encourages behaviour that spreads disease and finally accuse the proponents of birth control availability in the third world of racism, imperialism, and even a type of genocide. Now THAT would be a propaganda speech worthy of the Vatican and it might actually have had some effect other than making the Pope look like a fool before the represenatives of the rulers of the world.

You mean if you were arguing against it?

First of all, why should any religious leader go to the UN to argue about contraception when the UN is already firmly in the eugenics and "overpopulation" myth making business?

Secondly, the Catholic Church and the traditional Orthodox position do not oppose artificial birth control because of its ineffectiveness but for the simple fact that it is immoral.

Anastasios

[TomS]

Being an orthodox forum doesn't give anyone the right to insult and offense a person
admired and considered saint to 1.5 BILLION peope. Or maybe u think you're the only one out there
with a brain...?

1.5 billion Roman Catholics or 1.5 Billion Hindus. It makes no difference - they are both outside the True Church and are on the Highway to Hell.

But you are right, obviously he was not brainless. How else could he have continued to fool the masses like he did. Although you have to admit that you have to be kinda stupid to be a Roman Catholic and follow a mortal man as if he was a god. Roman Catholics are not really that much different than Hindus come to think of it.

[Silouan]

nor much differnt than those that place their faith in the pseudo-scholars that hate Christianity and the Church. 

[TomS]

nor much differnt than those that place their faith in the pseudo-scholars that hate Christianity and the Church.ÂÂ  

Amen! Woe to them!

[Silouan]

That would be you Tom.  Or now that that approach has failed are you trying a new method to get attention?

[TomS]

That would be you Tom.ÂÂ  Or now that that approach has failed are you trying a new method to get attention?

Me? How so?

[Silouan]

By constantly posting titles to books of questionable scholarship and making anti-ecclisiastical statements that are easily proven to be false. 

[Arystarcus]

It is of the TRUE Orthodox. They adhere to the truth that the pope is anti-christ!

Just because a majority of the Orthodox have been sucked into the whole "we are sister churches" lie, does not mean that all have been.

Wow! ÂÂ

Does this mean that you are going to start quoting from the Rudder, leave the GOA and opt for one of the "Truly True REAL Orthodox" synods that is only in Eucharistic communion with itself because everyone else is a graceless ecumenist? ÂÂ   ÂÂ   ÂÂ

[Silouan]

Hey whatever it takes for attention.

[TomS]

Wow! ÂÂ

Does this mean that you are going to start quoting from the Rudder, leave the GOA and opt for one of the "Truly True REAL Orthodox" synods that is only in Eucharistic communion with itself because everyone else is a graceless ecumenist? ÂÂ   ÂÂ   ÂÂ

Revelation 13:8 “all who dwell on the earth will worship him (the beast = ECUMENISM), everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.”

Open your eyes, brother! Follow not the Beast! Flee from the feel-good watered down "church" that they feed to you through a straw!

[GiC]

You mean if you were arguing against it?

Yes, typo.

First of all, why should any religious leader go to the UN to argue about contraception when the UN is already firmly in the eugenics and "overpopulation" myth making business?

But the quote presented was from an address to the UN, so to answer your question, the Pope. If one has to defend a posistion before the UN, or in any public forum, emotionally charged, politically correct nonsense is a powerful propaganda tool.

Secondly, the Catholic Church and the traditional Orthodox position do not oppose artificial birth control because of its ineffectiveness but for the simple fact that it is immoral.

The reason the Catholic Church is opposed to artificial contraception is because they made the mistake of publically asserting that posistion when the said posistion was popular and now they are stuck with it...we don't have to make the same political mistake.

[SeanMc]

The reason the Catholic Church is opposed to artificial contraception is because they made the mistake of publically asserting that posistion when the said posistion was popular and now they are stuck with it...we don't have to make the same political mistake.

I highly doubt that it was a popular thing to ban contraception in the late 1960s. The Canadian Bishops even went so far as to issue "The Winnipeg Statement" which said: "In accord with the accepted principles of moral theology, if these persons have tried sincerely but without success to pursue a line of conduct in keeping with the given directives, they may be safely assured that, whoever honestly chooses that course which seems right to him, does so in good conscience." This directly conflicts with Paul VI's teaching that contraception is a grave evil.

[GiC]

I was under the impression that Rome had opposed birth control before then, perhaps my thinking was in error. But even in the 60's, amongst the majority of the population (though perhaps not the most vocal part of the population), birth control would probably have been frowned upon.

[SeanMc]

I was under the impression that Rome had opposed birth control before then, perhaps my thinking was in error. But even in the 60's, amongst the majority of the population (though perhaps not the most vocal part of the population), birth control would probably have been frowned upon.

I thought you were talking about the encyclicals of Paul VI, sorry; I've no idea if they did have any official opposition of birth control before then. Not too sure about whether it was accepted in the 1960s, but I would suspect that it would be in most Western nations. It was actually illegal in many places though in the early 1960s, like Canada, but I guess the Courts knocked that law down.

[JoeS]

Hey whatever it takes for attention.

I think we are getting way off topic here.  My intention in the initial thread was to find out why the Roman Catholics (apparently) are not having as many children as say the Muslims.  Im sure there is concern that t he RCC may be out populated and out influenced in the near future in many Western European countries.   What will get the RC's back in the bedroom? 

JoeS

[GiC]

I think we are getting way off topic here.  My intention in the initial thread was to find out why the Roman Catholics (apparently) are not having as many children as say the Muslims.  Im sure there is concern that t he RCC may be out populated and out influenced in the near future in many Western European countries.  ÃƒÆ’‚ What will get the RC's back in the bedroom?  

A high birth rate is characteristic of a primitive society, especially a primitive agricultural culture; in these contexts large families give additional benifit and security to the parents. However, in more advanced societies large families actually accomplish the opposite, more economic hardship, it's only rational that people take the most benificial path. Then there is the factor of age of marriage, while marrying at an earlier age will deprive one of many advantages in an advanced society, it will actually give advantage in a more primitive agricultural society; and all this is ignoring birth control, which has already been discussed.

In short, we have a lower birth rate than the Moslems because we are more technologically advanced, economically secure, and culturally civilized than they are. Now if we're worried about being disadvantaged because of the difference in birth rate, perhaps we're looking in the wrong place for a solution; perhaps our problem is not that we have a low birth rate, perhaps the problem is that we have a form of government that they can influence by nothing more than excessive breeding.

[JoeS]

A high birth rate is characteristic of a primitive society, especially a primitive agricultural culture; in these contexts large families give additional benifit and security to the parents. However, in more advanced societies large families actually accomplish the opposite, more economic hardship, it's only rational that people take the most benificial path. Then there is the factor of age of marriage, while marrying at an earlier age will deprive one of many advantages in an advanced society, it will actually give advantage in a more primitive agricultural society; and all this is ignoring birth control, which has already been discussed.

In short, we have a lower birth rate than the Moslems because we are more technologically advanced, economically secure, and culturally civilized than they are. Now if we're worried about being disadvantaged because of the difference in birth rate, perhaps we're looking in the wrong place for a solution; perhaps our problem is not that we have a low birth rate, perhaps the problem is that we have a form of government that they can influence by nothing more than excessive breeding.

I have married into a very large family. My brother in law - 13 children, My sister in law 8 children, I have over 100 nieces and nephews mostly on my wifes side and we are living in this technological age.  It can be done- I am witness to it.  almost all the adult children have at least some college and some post graduate degrees.  Large families can prosper if you have the determination to do it.  We have as a society replaced children with worldly things. This is the quest of most families that is bigger homes, 2 or 3 cars, vacation home and we know that children would prevent us from doing all these wonderful things.  What is important in this life?

JoeS

[GiC]

I have married into a very large family. My brother in law - 13 children, My sister in law 8 children, I have over 100 nieces and nephews mostly on my wifes side and we are living in this technological age.ÂÂ  It can be done- I am witness to it.ÂÂ  almost all the adult children have at least some college and some post graduate degrees.ÂÂ  Large families can prosper if you have the determination to do it.ÂÂ  We have as a society replaced children with worldly things. This is the quest of most families that is bigger homes, 2 or 3 cars, vacation home and we know that children would prevent us from doing all these wonderful things.ÂÂ  What is important in this life?

I didn't say it can't be done, I said that it is neither necessary nor economically benificial, thus we tend not to have large families; in past eras we tended to have larger families because it was necessary and/or economically benificial. Now whether or not one should have a large family is a different question; unless they are financially well off, I probably would not advise it for everyone's sake, but ultimately it's a matter of personal preference (provided you can actually take care of your children), with neither choice being essentially better or worse, many people live a full and happy life with few children or none at all; furthermore, people trying to improve the standard of living for their spouse/family can hardly be condemned. Now if large families like the one of which you speak (13 children) were widespread, I may argue that they have negative sociological impacts, but the overwhelming majority of the people choose the economically logical path, thus making sociological factors negligible.

[Orthodoc]

What I don't understand is that if Roman Catholics are adhereing to their churches teachings regarding contraception as they claim they are when they criticize what they call out liberal attitudes... then - Why would it be necessary for the Pope to instruct them to multiply?  They and mother nature should already be doing it as they have done for centuries. 

Orthodoc

[arjuna3110]

The RCC is a cesspool and the pope is the anti-christ!

Your remarks are unacceptable.

The Roman Catholic Church is not a cesspool.  It is my mom.  It is also my sisters and one of my brothers and so on.  It's also many of my neighbors.  Etc. 

The pope is not the anti-christ.  He is the bishop of Rome, and he was making a commentary on the psalms to help people in his church to remember that parenthood is a *good* thing.

[arjuna3110]

What I don't understand is that if Roman Catholics are adhereing to their churches teachings regarding contraception as they claim they are when they criticize what they call out liberal attitudes... then - Why would it be necessary for the Pope to instruct them to multiply?ÂÂ  They and mother nature should already be doing it as they have done for centuries.ÂÂ  

Indeed.  Ergo, they are clearly not obeying the RC birth control teaching.  And, it is an open secret that most Catholics reject the birth control teaching.  The core idea in Humanae Vitae is that artifical birth control is inherently evil by playing God.  Yet, most people find that articial birth control (that does not involve or cause abortion) is a miracle of modern science -- for all the obvious reasons.  However, there is another idea in Humane Vitae which is well worth being stressed:  birth control is no substitute for self-control.  As for the original topic --how to get Catholics to have more kids--  I think they won't after having 2 - 4 kids, if they live in rich countries, for all the obvious reasons.  But, if by love and compassion as well as by firmness, we could persuade the people (including the Catholics) who are having abortions to instead carry their babies to term, there could be a sizeable increase in the number of kids.

[Jennifer]

Your remarks are unacceptable.

The Roman Catholic Church is not a cesspool.  It is my mom.  It is also my sisters and one of my brothers and so on.  It's also many of my neighbors.  Etc. 

The pope is not the anti-christ.  He is the bishop of Rome, and he was making a commentary on the psalms to help people in his church to remember that parenthood is a *good* thing.

Arjuna, don't pay too much attention to Tom.  He seems to have a kind of irrational hatred of the Roman Catholic Church.  I'm sure that I'm not alone in finding his behavior embarrassing.  Rest assured, that you will meet very few raving anti-Catholic bigots like TomS in real-world Orthodoxy. 

[Kosmas]

I think this was the best thing a Pope has ever said. catholics have to get over the guilt of sex within marriage. The next step now is for the Pope to follow the Good Book and allow clergy to be married. It is after all Biblical.

A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well. 1 Timothy 3:12

Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas ?  1 Corinthians 9:5

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.  Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,  because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer. 1 Tinmothy 4:1-5

An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. Since an overseer [bishop]  is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless--not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. Titus 1:6-7

[TomS]

The Roman Catholic Church is not a cesspool.ÂÂ  It is my mom.ÂÂ  It is also my sisters and one of my brothers and so on.ÂÂ  It's also many of my neighbors.ÂÂ  Etc.ÂÂ  

Then I suggest you do all that you can to drag them out of that cesspool and hose them off!

Arjuna, don't pay too much attention to Tom.ÂÂ  He seems to have a kind of irrational hatred of the Roman Catholic Church.ÂÂ  I'm sure that I'm not alone in finding his behavior embarrassing.ÂÂ  Rest assured, that you will meet very few raving anti-Catholic bigots like TomS in real-world Orthodoxy.ÂÂ  

IRRATIONAL!!! ?? Read some HISTORY! Check out the LAWSUITS! The RCC is Satan Incarnate!

Course, you were duped too at one time, weren't you?

[SouthSerb99]

Arjuna, don't pay too much attention to Tom.ÂÂ  He seems to have a kind of irrational hatred of the Roman Catholic Church.ÂÂ  I'm sure that I'm not alone in finding his behavior embarrassing.ÂÂ  Rest assured, that you will meet very few raving anti-Catholic bigots like TomS in real-world Orthodoxy.ÂÂ  

With all due respect Jennifer, MANY Orthodox, like myself are not bigotted, but have deep rooted historical reason to have a dislike for the Vatican and modern Roman Catholicism.

http://www.pavelicpapers.com/features/essays/psg.html

While I don't extend these feelings to "individuals", as an institution, the RCC needs to get on her hands and knees and beg for forgiveness for her sins against the Orthodox in Yugoslavia.

[ozgeorge]

OK, this thread is now WAY off topic.
The description of this forum says:
"Discuss in charity issues uniting and dividing the Orthodox Church and the Roman/Eastern Catholic churches. (*in Communion with Rome). "
Telling people their church is "satan incarnate" and a "cesspool", and their primate is "the antichrist" ain't no way to "win friends and influence people".
Could we all please play by the rules and tone it down a little?

[TomS]

Telling people their church is "satan incarnate" and a "cesspool", and their primate is "the antichrist" ain't no way to "win friends and influence people".

Oh! I misunderstood! SorryÂÂ  

I believe, as Traditional Orthodox, "winning friends and influencing people" is NOT what we should be concerned about!

We should be spreading the TRUTH. I follow the blessed monks of the Esphigmenou Monastery on the Holy Mountain.

[ozgeorge]

Oh! I misunderstood! SorryÂÂ  

Well, it was an easy enough mistake to make.

I believe, as Traditional Orthodox, "winning friends and influencing people" is NOT what we should be concerned about!
We should be spreading the TRUTH. I follow the blessed monks of the Esphigmenou Monastery on the Holy Mountain.

So it's 'Traditional Orthodoxy' this week? Boy, have I got a suggestion for another Orthodox forum for you!

[Stamfordguy]

So is ignoring pedophilia. The RCC is a cesspool and the pope is the anti-christ!

This has got to rank as one of the silliest, Jack Chickish-statements I've ever read in any Orthodox forum, bar none. Surely you jest! Your remarks are clearly NOT representative of Orthodox Christianity.

[TomS]

This has got to rank as one of the silliest, Jack Chickish-statements I've ever read in any Orthodox forum, bar none. Surely you jest! Your remarks are clearly NOT representative of Orthodox Christianity.

I follow the blessed monks of the Esphigmenou Monastery on the Holy Mountain.

[Stamfordguy]

Really? So for these particular monks, the pope is viewed as the anti-christ and the Roman Catholic Church is considered to be a cess pool. Is this correct? Forgive me for not accepting your word as gospel and asking that you provide some substantiation for this claim.

[arjuna3110]

With all due respect Jennifer, MANY Orthodox, like myself are not bigotted, but have deep rooted historical reason to have a dislike for the Vatican and modern Roman Catholicism.

http://www.pavelicpapers.com/features/essays/psg.html

While I don't extend these feelings to "individuals", as an institution, the RCC needs to get on her hands and knees and beg for forgiveness for her sins against the Orthodox in Yugoslavia.

I actually read that webpage. ÂÂ I then looked online for corroboration of the staments.  I found some at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archbishop_Stepinac. ÂÂ This is the first I have ever heard of the man. ÂÂ I honestly do not know what to make of Archbishop Stepinac of Croatia. ÂÂ Did he mean to help people, but did he neverthless collaborate anyway with the fascistic Utashe government? ÂÂ Or, did he truly support the Utashe as enemies of communism and Orthodoxy, but did he also try to cover himself by trying to help some people ? ÂÂ Or, something else? ÂÂ I do not know.

A few months ago, someone asked at another online discussion forum: "Why don't the Orthodox want to reuntie with the Catholic Church?"  And I responded that the Catholic Church has hurt the Orthodox in several specific and egregious ways throughout history:  most notably, the 4th Crusade and Uniatism.  (It was a uniate discussion forum, so the latter comment didn't go over well . . . )  Then, I added that the effects of those hurts have echoed through history down to the present day.  Well, this *really* didn't go over well, so I apologized for any offense and exited from that website.  Yet, the fact remains, these actions by the Catholic Church *did* cause real and substantial hurt to the Orthodox world.  An apology is nice, but it is rather a beginning.

I think your attitude, SouthSerb, is at least *reasoned* in its outrage; and, you seem *to be willing* to make a distinction between the institution of the Roman Catholic Church and the individuals who are members of it.

Finally, I have not been a victim of such catastrophic evils; and so I cannot say what I would do or feel if that were my experience and heritage.  However, I have experienced egregious personal hurt.  I found that so long as I kept the anger alive, by nursing the memory of the injustice, I was still giving victory to the one who had hurt me.  When I learned to forgive, I discovered two things.  Christ had taken my burden; and, I was now the victor because I was no longer the prisoner of my hurt.

I hope you who were hurt by my church will rise above that hurt, by the power of Christ, and forgive, so that you too can know peace and victory.

[TomS]

Really? So for these particular monks, the pope is viewed as the anti-christ and the Roman Catholic Church is considered to be a cess pool. Is this correct? Forgive me for not accepting your word as gospel and asking that you provide some substantiation for this claim.

No problem.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100011_03/09/2005_60363

No force on zealot monks of the Esphigmenou Monastery on the Holy Mountain!

The Istanbul-based Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople and the Mt Athos monastic community have opted for stealth rather than force in their efforts to evict some 100 ultra-Orthodox monks from the Esphigmenou Monastery.

The abbots of the other 19 Mt Athos monasteries met yesterday at Karyes, the community’s administrative center, to decide on further action against the Esphigmenou monks whom they asked to leave the monastery in December 2002. The most likely course of action, it appeared last night, is to establish another monastic community, decare it the legal proprietors of the monastery and settle it temporarily elsewhere.

Last March, Greece’s Council of State, the highest administrative court, rejected an appeal by Esphigmenou’s abbot, Methodios, to nullify the eviction order by the Patriarchate and the monastic community. The court said it had no jurisdiction over the matter, adding that the Patriarchate has absolute authority over the community. The Esphigmenou monks broke with the mainstream Orthodox Church in 1964, when Patriarch Athenagoras met with Pope John VI. The ultra-Orthodox regard the pope as evil incarnate.
_________________

M'kay? Now go and save yourself and your family from the evils of the RCC!

[SouthSerb99]

I actually read that webpage. ÂÂ I then looked online for corroboration of the staments.ÂÂ  I found some at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archbishop_Stepinac. ÂÂ This is the first I have ever heard of the man. ÂÂ I honestly do not know what to make of Archbishop Stepinac of Croatia. ÂÂ Did he mean to help people, but did he neverthless collaborate anyway with the fascistic Utashe government? ÂÂ Or, did he truly support the Utashe as enemies of communism and Orthodoxy, but did he also try to cover himself by trying to help some people ? ÂÂ Or, something else? ÂÂ I do not know.

A few months ago, someone asked at another online discussion forum: "Why don't the Orthodox want to reuntie with the Catholic Church?"  And I responded that the Catholic Church has hurt the Orthodox in several specific and egregious ways throughout history:  most notably, the 4th Crusade and Uniatism.  (It was a uniate discussion forum, so the latter comment didn't go over well . . . )  Then, I added that the effects of those hurts have echoed through history down to the present day.  Well, this *really* didn't go over well, so I apologized for any offense and exited from that website.  Yet, the fact remains, these actions by the Catholic Church *did* cause real and substantial hurt to the Orthodox world.  An apology is nice, but it is rather a beginning.

I think your attitude, SouthSerb, is at least *reasoned* in its outrage; and, you seem *to be willing* to make a distinction between the institution of the Roman Catholic Church and the individuals who are members of it.

Finally, I have not been a victim of such catastrophic evils; and so I cannot say what I would do or feel if that were my experience and heritage.  However, I have experienced egregious personal hurt.  I found that so long as I kept the anger alive, by nursing the memory of the injustice, I was still giving victory to the one who had hurt me.  When I learned to forgive, I discovered two things.  Christ had taken my burden; and, I was now the victor because I was no longer the prisoner of my hurt.

My response probably wasn't as measured as it should have been, but I got caught up in the moment of the word "bigot" being tossed around.

Tom and I don't agree on most things, but I can tell you that I am fairly certain he is not a bigot.

As for "Archbishop" Stepinac.  I think his role amongst the fascist Croatian regime speaks for itself.  Some suggest he did not know/understand the extent of what was going on around him, I think that is unadulterated hogwash.

Remember, most Croatians (and many RCs) still claim that only 30,000 Serbs, Jews and Gypsies were murdered in WWII Croatian concentration camps.  That is a bitter pill to swallow.  My family was not directly affected by Jasenovac or the policies of fascist Croatia (convert 1/3, kill 1/3, expel 1/3).  We were too busy getting hacked up by your friendly neighborhood Islamo-fascist Albanians.

I certainly do NOT harbor any ill will to individual RCs and to an extent, I'm mellowing with respect to the Vatican, although I really think they need to come clean about their role in WWII and even with regards to the current break-up of Yugoslavia.

Truth be told, there are several photographs depicted RC Clergy partaking in forced conversion ceremonies (this is where the apologists ask me to prove what the pics show).... well I put the pics in historical context and it doesn't take much imagination to figure it out.

I hope you who were hurt by my church will rise above that hurt, by the power of Christ, and forgive, so that you too can know peace and victory.

Thank you.  That is very kind and I will try.

[TomS]

Tom and I don't agree on most things, but I can tell you that I am fairly certain he is not a bigot.

Thank you.

[arjuna3110]

Quote:
I hope you who were hurt by my church will rise above that hurt, by the power of Christ, and forgive, so that you too can know peace and victory.

Thank you.  That is very kind and I will try.

It was kind of you to hear me out, SouthSerb, and I thank you.

[Stamfordguy]

Tom and I don't agree on most things, but I can tell you that I am fairly certain he is not a bigot.

Thanks, I'm so reassured. Cesspool... anti-christ, satanic church... yeah... he's no bigot. I'm so grateful for your reassurances notwithstanding. 

[Stamfordguy]

No problem.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100011_03/09/2005_60363

Ah... now it's becoming clearer: the loonie-tunes from  Esphigmenou Monastery. Okay, I see where you're coming from, Tom (and I don't want to come from there  )

Regards

[Silouan]

On most other church topics, Tom takes a secularist approach, but on his long held anti-catholicism (what was I just saying in another thread about protestant converts and anti-catholicism...) resorts to Esfigmenou.  I don't know about others on this board, but have actually been to Esfigmenou - at that monastery Tom would not be considered Orthodox, nor allowed to stand inside the church during services. 

I think like was mentioned in another thread there is a difference between true Judenhass and disagrement with zionist policy - the same hold true to this topic.  I disagree with both Vatican policy (i.e the ustashi incident etc.) and Catholic doctrine - that is why I became Orthodox.  But there are some people that will hate and revile anything that even remotely relates to Catholicism - Jack Chick style. 

When Rome does something positive, I think the Orthodox should be happy.  The same goes with protestant groups that do positive things for society. 

[TomS]

On most other church topics, Tom takes a secularist approach, but on his long held anti-catholicism (what was I just saying in another thread about protestant converts and anti-catholicism...) resorts to Esfigmenou. 

Text deleted

Regardless of whether the original post was said tongue in cheek or not, it is totally inappropriate.[/center]

[Silouan]

People within the RCC have been exceedingly evil.  But it has also been the bastion of a great many philanthropic institutions.  Since you suddenly claim to be an Orthodox Traditionalist now, look towards the fathers that tell you to be like a bee and take only that which is good from everywhere. 

[Jennifer]

Text deleted

You've gone too far this time.  I've just reported you and I hope the moderators put a stop to this kind of bigotry.  This bigot wants the church that I spent several years building to burn to the ground.  This bigot wants the church I was raised in to be burned to the ground. 

Removed quoted text

[Jennifer]

With all due respect Jennifer, MANY Orthodox, like myself are not bigotted, but have deep rooted historical reason to have a dislike for the Vatican and modern Roman Catholicism.

http://www.pavelicpapers.com/features/essays/psg.html

While I don't extend these feelings to "individuals", as an institution, the RCC needs to get on her hands and knees and beg for forgiveness for her sins against the Orthodox in Yugoslavia.

But Tom's a bigot.  It's pretty clear now that he's praying for every Roman Catholic Church to be burned to the ground.  Tom obviously feels far more than "dislike" for the RCC. 

And yes, I agree that the RCC, as an institution, has done harm in the world but I also believe that the RCC, as an institution, has done good in the world.  Most of the hospitals in the United States were founded by Roman Catholic orders.  Catholic Charities does tremendous good. 

More than anything else, the Roman Catholic Church is where I first heard the word preached.  It's where I first learned about Christ.  It's where I meet good Christians who helped me through some bad times.  It's the church of St. Therese of Lisieux and Dorothy Day and St. Francis and St. Clare.  I won't argue that they were right about papal infallibility but they weren't evil. 

If this kind of rhetoric is allowed to remain on this board, visitors won't know that we're reasonable.  They'll think we're another group of rabid anti-Catholic Orthodox bigots when we all know that Tom is just playing another one of his games.  He doesn't speak for anyone here. 

[GiC]

I follow the blessed monks of the Esphigmenou Monastery on the Holy Mountain.

While I'm not fan of the papists, these Schismatic 'monks' are no better; rather I would say that the Latins are more virtuous, for at least they are in Obedience to their Bishop, which is more than can be said for these false teachers you claim to follow.

[Silouan]

What you say of Esphigmenou is not true either.  The monks are in obedience to their igoumen and in communion with the synod of Archbishop Chrysostomos II of Athens.  While I disagree with their position, I won't slander them either and say they are in obedience to noone, while Catholics are. 

[GiC]

It's the church of St. Therese of Lisieux and Dorothy Day and St. Francis and St. Clare.ÂÂ  I won't argue that they were right about papal infallibility but they weren't evil.

While it is not for me to comment on their moral qualities, I can say with some confidence that these people are most certainly not Saints; for we do not list those who are foreign to the Christian Church amongst the Saints who served Her.

[GiC]

What you say of Esphigmenou is not true either.ÂÂ  The monks are in obedience to their igoumen and in communion with the synod of Archbishop Chrysostomos II of Athens.ÂÂ  While I disagree with their position, I won't slander them either and say they are in obedience to noone, while Catholics are.ÂÂ  

They are within the Lands of the Patriarchate of Constantinople, and in regard to their rightful Bishop they live in defiance. Furthermore, I believe that, canonically speaking, the Synod of Chrysostomos II is an even greater abomination than that of Rome; the latter, at least, exists by Right of an Oecumenical Synod, a right that we have never revoked with a Synod of comprable authority; the former, on the other hand, consists of men and successors of men who have been canonically deposed.

[Jennifer]

While it is not for me to comment on their moral qualities, I can say with some confidence that these people are most certainly not Saints; for we do not list those who are foreign to the Christian Church amongst the Saints who served Her.

I should remind everyone that GiC refused to acknowledge that St. John of San Francisco was an Orthodox saint. 

I seriously doubt that St. Therese of Lisieux and St. John of San Francisco are "foreign to the Christian Church." 

[Silouan]

GiC -

I am not defending the position of the GOC nor Esfigmenou.  I am stating only that they do not live in ecclesiastical anarchy.  Those within the Patriarchate and state church of Greece that wrote against Old Calendarism (at least the better writters) did not make that claim against them.  I'd suggest you read what Elder Philotheos Zervakos and other wrote on the subject. 

Jennifer -

You are mixing two seperate issues.  GiC's rejection of Saint John Maximovitch is quite strange, and as I have pointed out before simply exemplifies his ignorance of Greek practice regarding the synaxarion.  As for the RC saints you mention, they are not part of Orthodoxy, so the church does not see them as saints.  How can those who weren't part of the Church be saints in it?

[Jennifer]

Jennifer -

You are mixing two seperate issues.  GiC's rejection of Saint John Maximovitch is quite strange, and as I have pointed out before simply exemplifies his ignorance of Greek practice regarding the synaxarion.  As for the RC saints you mention, they are not part of Orthodoxy, so the church does not see them as saints.  How can those who weren't part of the Church be saints in it?

Oh, I understand GiC and I understand that they are different issues.  I am not "offended" by GiC's argument that Roman Catholic saints are not saints.  I know that many Orthodox do not accept Roman Catholic saints as saints.  However, I accept Roman Catholic saints as saints because I see them as part of the Church (perhaps in an imperfect way). 

[GiC]

I seriously doubt that St. Therese of Lisieux and St. John of San Francisco are "foreign to the Christian Church."

Putting aside the fact that some of her theology is horrendous (and if I was feeling either particularly honest or uncharitable I would say heretical, but fortunately I'm not), I fear I fail to see how it is unreasonable to assert that people who die estranged from the Church cannot so easily be regarded as Saints of the Church. If someone dies outside the Church I would expect, at the very least, a declaration that said person is a Saint by the Great Church of Chriat; and preferably a few Anathemas against the supposed heretics who forced them out of the Church, as heresy is the ONLY Canonical Justification for breaking communion with your Bishop.

[TomS]

You've gone too far this time.ÂÂ  I've just reported you and I hope the moderators put a stop to this kind of bigotry.ÂÂ  This bigot wants the church that I spent several years building to burn to the ground.ÂÂ  This bigot wants the church I was raised in to be burned to the ground.ÂÂ  

OH NO!!! I be in trouble now!ÂÂ  

There is a difference between praying for something and actually going out and torching them.

BUILDINGS.... They are not people... Brick and Morter... that's all they are. I know a couple of people who were molested by your ex church (of Satan) who would LOVE nothing more to see this happen. These innocents have been abandoned by this so called "church"

Refer to "Fight Club" for a similar idea.

Do you consider the RCC a Sister Church of the Orthodox Church?

[Silouan]

However, I accept Roman Catholic saints as saints because I see them as part of the Church (perhaps in an imperfect way). 

For that then, your opinion is outside of the church.  The Orthodox church sees herself as the entire one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.  So it is odd that you would find fault with GiC when he is upholding the teaching of the Church. 

[Jennifer]

For that then, your opinion is outside of the church.  The Orthodox church sees herself as the entire one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.  So it is odd that you would find fault with GiC when he is upholding the teaching of the Church. 

I know some Orthodox who agree with me and some Orthodox who don't.  I don't find "fault" with GiC.  However, I myself see sanctity in Roman Catholic saints like St. Therese. 

[TomS]

For that then, your opinion is outside of the church.ÂÂ  The Orthodox church sees herself as the entire one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.ÂÂ  So it is odd that you would find fault with GiC when he is upholding the teaching of the Church.ÂÂ  

AMEN! Although, as all know, I have issues accepting all the teachings of the Church - I agree that the Orthodox Church IS the True Church.

If you are a member of the Orthodox Church and you think otherwise - then you are basically saying that it does not matter which church you belong to.

Do you feel there is Salvation in the Roman Catholic church? If you do, then why did you leave it? And please, go BACK TO IT!!!

[Jennifer]

Putting aside the fact that some of her theology is horrendous (and if I was feeling either particularly honest or uncharitable I would say heretical, but fortunately I'm not), I fear I fail to see how it is unreasonable to assert that people who die estranged from the Church cannot so easily be regarded as Saints of the Church. If someone dies outside the Church I would expect, at the very least, a declaration that said person is a Saint by the Great Church of Chriat; and preferably a few Anathemas against the supposed heretics who forced them out of the Church, as heresy is the ONLY Canonical Justification for breaking communion with your Bishop.

I didn't write that it was unreasonable to argue that Roman Catholic saints are not saints.  However, I personally disagree.  As for St. Therese, I've had the grace in my life to be acquainted with some good Roman Catholics who have a particular devotion to Little Therese.  They're good people and they love God so I won't judge them. 

[Jennifer]

AMEN! Although, as all know, I have issues accepting all the teachings of the Church - I agree that the Orthodox Church IS the True Church.

If you are a member of the Orthodox Church and you think otherwise - then you are basically saying that it does not matter which church you belong to.

Do you feel there is Salvation in the Roman Catholic church? If you do, then why did you leave it? And please, go BACK TO IT!!!

Tom, what you write is a disgusting insult to people I know and love.  To a good priest who put up with me for years.  Who's still there for me whenever I need him even though I 'doxed.'  A man who has literally given the shirt off of his back to people in need.  I'd take him over anyone here, myself included. 

It's an insult to a parish full of good people who welcomed me even though I didn't agree with them about everything.  Good people who deserve better than your bigotry. 

You've gone too far here, Tom. 

[TomS]

Tom, what you write is a disgusting insult to people I know and love.ÂÂ  To a good priest who put up with me for years.ÂÂ  Who's still there for me whenever I need him even though I 'doxed.'ÂÂ  A man who has literally given the shirt off of his back to people in need.ÂÂ  I'd take him over anyone here, myself included.ÂÂ  

I am not talking about individuals - I am talking about the institution. As an example, I agree that Mother Teresa was a Saint, but only because she was able to create her "Saintliness" outside of the RCC. She would have been a Saint in my eyes even of she was a Buddhist. Because God is good.

[Pravoslavbob]

As a Canadian, this is something which gets under my skin here too.ÂÂ  There are so many born, white Canadians who endlessly complain about the changing complexion of their country due to immigration.ÂÂ  Yet the fact of the matter is, these same whites don't have children, and certainly not in the numbers needed to replace themselves, let alone populate our vastly under-populated, resource rich nation.ÂÂ  So, if it takes bringing in east-Indians, Pakistanis, Chinese, etc. to keep the wheels turning, well t.s..

Canada is not underpopulated at all if you consider how, as a "first world" country it leaves a massive ecological footprint on the earth.  Also, even with a moderating trend in temperature, I don't see a huge trend towards migration to Baffin Island or anywhere else in Nunavut, for that matter.  Is Northern Siberia also "vastly underpopulated?"  Population growth in Canada has always been close to the American border.  But otherwise, you make some good points. ÂÂ

[Anastasios]

as heresy is the ONLY Canonical Justification for breaking communion with your Bishop.

Which is why the GOC separated from your hierarchs, because it sees them as heretics or at best in communion with heretics.  While you will undoubtedly assert that your hierarchs are not heretics and that the GOC is therefore schismatic, wrong, "an abomination", etc. you have to admit they are being consistent and at least should be more charitable towards them.

Anastasios

[Pravoslavbob]

I have to agree with Jennifer, Tom.  I don't know why you have such an obsessive hatred for the Latin Church.  Or why you don't accept certain central doctrines of Orthodoxy and then imply that you are allied with the "ultra Orthodox".

[TomS]

I have to agree with Jennifer, Tom.  I don't know why you have such an obsessive hatred for the Latin Church.  Or why you don't accept certain central doctrines of Orthodoxy and then imply that you are allied with the "ultra Orthodox".

It's a mystery. 

[GiC]

Which is why the GOC separated from your hierarchs, because it sees them as heretics or at best in communion with heretics.ÂÂ  While you will undoubtedly assert that your hierarchs are not heretics and that the GOC is therefore schismatic, wrong, "an abomination", etc. you have to admit they are being consistent and at least should be more charitable towards them.

That they are consistant I will grant, but so are the Latins...for that matter so are the demons (No one be too offended, I'm not making a comparison, just a point). However, your post does bring up an interesting point, the fact that the GOC believes the Orthodox Church to be in Heresy. This would imply that their beliefs are inconsonant with those of the Church, which from my perspective are clearly Orthodox; thus, perhaps the conclusion that should be drawn is that the GOC is not technically schismatic, but rather heretical, for they hold beliefs that are inconsonant with the Orthodox Faith as professed by the Orthodox Church. Of course, the other possibility is simply ignorance of the Faith of the Church, in which case they would be schismatics; perhaps this is an issue that warrents further investigation.

[Anastasios]

That they are consistant I will grant, but so are the Latins...for that matter so are the demons (No one be too offended, I'm not making a comparison, just a point). However, your post does bring up an interesting point, the fact that the GOC believes the Orthodox Church to be in Heresy. This would imply that their beliefs are inconsonant with those of the Church, which from my perspective are clearly Orthodox; thus, perhaps the conclusion that should be drawn is that the GOC is not technically schismatic, but rather heretical, for they hold beliefs that are inconsonant with the Orthodox Faith as professed by the Orthodox Church. Of course, the other possibility is simply ignorance of the Faith of the Church, in which case they would be schismatics; perhaps this is an issue that warrents further investigation.

Your argument seriously misrepresents the GOC position, but I don't think that worries you too much. For the benefit of people reading, and not because I think I can actually get anywhere with you personally, I will respond to your post.  The GOC does not beleive the Orthodox Church is in heresy.  The GOC believes it is the Orthodox Church and that your local Church is in heresy and no longer the Orthodox Church.  You are cleverly trying to defeat the GOC position based on an argument from authority; however, since the authority in question is disputed you are not going to be successful.  You believe the EP is the Church; the GOC does not.  Because the GOC does not believe the EP is the Orthodox Church, it is obliged to separate from it.  If you turn out to be right, one would hope that God will have mercy on the GOC precisely because it followed the canons of the Church and separated from what it perceives as heresy.  If of course the GOC is right, one would hope that God will have mercy on the New Calendarists for staying in communion with the EP, which would be the logical thing to do provided the EP is Orthodox.

Anastasios

[JoeS]

I have to agree with Jennifer, Tom.  I don't know why you have such an obsessive hatred for the Latin Church.  Or why you don't accept certain central doctrines of Orthodoxy and then imply that you are allied with the "ultra Orthodox".

I wonder if it would make any difference if the Pope came out and Infallibly declared contraception a serious sin. You know - made it a dogma of faith.

JoeS ÂÂ

[Anastasios]

I wonder if it would make any difference if the Pope came out and Infallibly declared contraception a serious sin. You know - made it a dogma of faith.

JoeS ÂÂ

It is my understanding that the ordinary magisterium has already spoken on the matter and hence from a Catholic pov there is no need for an infallible statement from the pope since the ordinary magisterium is infallible as well.

Anastasios

[EkhristosAnesti]

Not wanting to divert this very interesting discussion, however I had to comment on this particular remark made by Anastasios in relation to GiC’s post:

You are cleverly trying to defeat the GOC position based on an argument from authority; however, since the authority in question is disputed you are not going to be successful.

I knew I wasn’t the only one who saw this consistent question-begging approach employed by GiC. Please see here for further examples: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=6853.msg91325#msg91325

Peace.

[SeanMc]

Dumb Question for this Day #1: Who's the GOC and why are they in conflict with the EP?

[TomS]

Dumb Question for this Day #1: Who's the GOC and why are they in conflict with the EP?

Maybe the question should be: "Who's the GOC and who isn't in conflict with the EP?" 

[SouthSerb99]

I'm going to attempt to speak for Tom (who I think is being unfairly tatooed with mud here), but I think he's been pretty clear in some of what he's said about the RCC.  As an INSTITUTION he is digusted by some of the things which have gone on "behind closed doors" and then covered up, the way a cat covers her mess in the litter box.

Personally, I don't find that too difficult to understand (although I'm terribly perplexed at somehow agreeing with Tom on an issue ).  I think Tom could have used a lot more tact in getting his message across, but that's Tom.  He's like "culture shock" all wound up in a single person  .

Jennifer, although I respect the fact that you were raised in the RCC and I do acknowledge that the RCC has done much good in this world, surely you can see the other side of the coin?  On your best day, it would be tough to ever convince a Serbian Orthodox Christian that the RCC is more good than bad.  (We've got the graves to prove it to you).

Maybe us Serbs should just recruit TomS as one of us!  Heck, are name can't get any worse, or could it? 

[Anastasios]

GOC: Short for Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians. Also known as Greek Old Calendarists.  A Church stemming from faithful who resisted the change of the calendar and ecumenism in 1924 in Greece and Romania.  In 1935 3 bishops of the state Church of Greece returned to the Old Calendar to lead the movement. A long story.  Check the wikipedia article on Greek Old Calendarists and ask me any questions you might have.

Anastasios

[Jennifer]

Jennifer, although I respect the fact that you were raised in the RCC and I do acknowledge that the RCC has done much good in this world, surely you can see the other side of the coin?  On your best day, it would be tough to ever convince a Serbian Orthodox Christian that the RCC is more good than bad.  (We've got the graves to prove it to you).

Maybe us Serbs should just recruit TomS as one of us!  Heck, are name can't get any worse, or could it? 

I think looking at things overall, it's rational to believe that the RCC is more good than bad.  What you're saying reminds me of a Jewish friend of mine who thinks Orthodoxy is just Cossacks going on pogroms.  I know Orthodoxy is more than one time and place and transcends the weaknesses of individual Orthodox people, but as you say "on your best day," you couldn't convince him that all Orthodox people don't hate Jews. 

BTW, I know some Serbian Orthodox people and they have never said to me that they think the RCC is more bad than good.  Most say the same thing as other ethnic Orthodox people I've met, that Roman Catholicism is a lot like Orthodoxy.  (I'm not arguing for that position, btw) 

But I don't think that you can use your personal experience as a justification for Tom's behavior.  He is not Serbian.  He's an American protestant.  If anything, we should have a grudge to bear against him for "Irish Need Not Apply" signs, etc.  He has no graves he can point to to prove the RCC is evil.  He has nothing other than his own bigotry.  And it's bigotry because it's irrational.  I wouldn't accuse you of bigotry because I think your problems with the RCC are rational.  But Tom goes beyond that. 

As for the distinction between individuals and the institution, the good Catholics I've known and loved in my life wouldn't distinguish themselves from the institution.  They would see claims that the RCC is evil as a personal attack on them because they're part of the institution.  How can a good Roman Catholic priest be separated from the institution of the RCC?  Further all of the good that Roman Catholics have done is done in the name of the Catholic Church.  Someone like Mother Cabrini would think it was absurd that that she in spite of the RCC. 

[arjuna3110]

Text deleted

Tom, what you wrote is such nonsense.  I respectfully suggest to you, as fellow worshipper of Christ, that you carefully consider the words of The Lord's Prayer.  I also respectfully suggest that you prayerfully consider the lesson our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ gave about forgiveness in the Gospel according to St. Matthew, chapter 18, verses 21 - 35. 

Removed quoted text

[arjuna3110]

That they are consistant I will grant, but so are the Latins...for that matter so are the demons (No one be too offended, I'm not making a comparison, just a point).

Actually, I am offended.  First, Tom had his rantings.  Now, you compared Roman Catholics with demons.  The point you made was unartfully rendered, to put it charitably.

[arjuna3110]

While it is not for me to comment on their moral qualities, I can say with some confidence that these people are most certainly not Saints; for we do not list those who are foreign to the Christian Church amongst the Saints who served Her.

Oh come on !  I can understand each Church honoring its own.  But saying that there aren't saints outside of your church?   There are clearly some holy people in Orthodoxy.  But, there are also clearly some holy people in Roman Catholicism too.   They loved God with their whole heart and soul and mind and strrength; and they loved their neighbor as themselves. 

What I find interesting is what our Lord Jesus Christ lists as His criteria for sainthood.  They are listed in the 25th chapter of the Gospel according to St. Matthew.  Belonging to one denomination or another is not on the list.  Instead, feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, giving welcome to the stranger, giving clothes to the naked, giving care to the sick and giving company to the imprisoned are Jesus' criteria for determining whether someone shall enter paradise.  For, "Whatsoever you did to the least of My brothers, that you did unto Me." 

[GiC]

Actually, I am offended.ÂÂ  First, Tom had his rantings.ÂÂ  Now, you compared Roman Catholics with demons.ÂÂ  The point you made was unartfully rendered, to put it charitably.

Interpret it as you wish, but that was not the intent...as I said before, I am being unusually kind to the Latins this evening.

Oh come on ! I can understand each Church honoring its own. But saying that there aren't saints outside of your church? There are clearly some holy people in Orthodoxy. But, there are also clearly some holy people in Roman Catholicism too. They loved God with their whole heart and soul and mind and strrength; and they loved their neighbor as themselves.

What I find interesting is what our Lord Jesus Christ lists as His criteria for sainthood. They are listed in the 25th chapter of the Gospel according to St. Matthew. Belonging to one denomination or another is not on the list. Instead, feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, giving welcome to the stranger, giving clothes to the naked, giving care to the sick and giving company to the imprisoned are Jesus' criteria for determining whether someone shall enter paradise. For, "Whatsoever you did to the least of My brothers, that you did unto Me."

Does Rome regard St. Gregory Palamas or St. Mark of Ephesus as Saints? If not, I beg you, for consistancy sake, do not criticize my rejection of the sainthood of Latin 'holy men.'

[arjuna3110]

Interpret it as you wish, but that was not the intent...as I said before, I am being unusually kind to the Latins this evening.

Does Rome regard St. Gregory Palamas or St. Mark of Ephesus as Saints? If not, I beg you, for consistancy sake, do not criticize my rejection of the sainthood of Latin 'holy men.'

Holiness doesn't reside in an official declaration by a church or not.  Most of the saints will never be canonized.  Holiness is because a sinner is redemeed and sanctified by God, because they live their lives in union with God, because God is allowed to live in and through them.

[Anastasios]

St Gregory Palamas is a Catholic saint. He is on the Eastern Catholic Calendars and in 1974 was added to the universal calendar by Pope Paul VI at the request of Cardinal Slipyj, says Archbishop Zoghby in his book A Voice from the Byzantine East.

Anastasios

[GiC]

Your argument seriously misrepresents the GOC position, but I don't think that worries you too much. For the benefit of people reading, and not because I think I can actually get anywhere with you personally, I will respond to your post.ÂÂ  The GOC does not beleive the Orthodox Church is in heresy.ÂÂ  The GOC believes it is the Orthodox Church and that your local Church is in heresy and no longer the Orthodox Church.ÂÂ  You are cleverly trying to defeat the GOC position based on an argument from authority; however, since the authority in question is disputed you are not going to be successful.

You seem to misrepresent my posistion as well, I argue from two perspectives simultaniously. The first and greatest is based on the Authority of the Church, this is true; but also, I argue that the Patriarchate of Constantinople is upholding Orthodoxy by her Actions, thus making those who claim Her Orthodox Actions are heretical, must, rationally speaking, he heretical themselves, for they stand at odds with the Orthodox Teachings of Constantinople. Now, we could probably go on for many pages about the theological arguments, but I believe that, in both our cases, our posistions are shaped primarily by experience, with academic arguments comming later, thus only by a change in experience could our posistions change, and probably quite a dramatic change in both our cases.

You believe the EP is the Church; the GOC does not.  Because the GOC does not believe the EP is the Orthodox Church, it is obliged to separate from it.  If you turn out to be right, one would hope that God will have mercy on the GOC precisely because it followed the canons of the Church and separated from what it perceives as heresy.  If of course the GOC is right, one would hope that God will have mercy on the New Calendarists for staying in communion with the EP, which would be the logical thing to do provided the EP is Orthodox.

This part of the statement seems dangerously close to theological relativism; and while my soteriology is very forgiving, it doesn't excuse (even if it may forgive) either schism or heresy.

[GiC]

St Gregory Palamas is a Catholic saint. He is on the Eastern Catholic Calendars and in 1974 was added to the universal calendar by Pope Paul VI at the request of Cardinal Slipyj, says Archbishop Zoghby in his book A Voice from the Byzantine East.

That is most interesting as the west has long held that the distinction between Divine Essence and Divine Energy and Operation, with the latter being observable as stated in the Tomos of 1351, to be heretical; and has long regarded St. Gregory Palamas, the primary advocate of this Theology to be a heresiarch.

[Stamfordguy]

You've gone too far this time.ÂÂ  I've just reported you and I hope the moderators put a stop to this kind of bigotry.ÂÂ  This bigot wants the church that I spent several years building to burn to the ground.ÂÂ  This bigot wants the church I was raised in to be burned to the ground.ÂÂ  

I entirely concur. I've also reported this abusive and unChristian posting. I hope that something will be done to curb this sort of hate-speech or I'm afraid I've landed in the wrong forum. Hatred of this sort has no place in the vocabulary of ANY Christian... period.

[SeanMc]

But, there are also clearly some holy people in Roman Catholicism too.   They loved God with their whole heart and soul and mind and strrength; and they loved their neighbor as themselves.

There is a clear sense of disordered spirituality in the Catholic Church: for some reason, torturing oneself is considered 'holy.' Case in point: Opus Dei, favoured by John Paul II. Many of it's members wear hairshirts, which used to be a rought cloth worn in penance, but changed in the Medieval times to be a spiked metal belt and this became known as a "cilice." There's also the practice of flagellation; Dominic beat himself with a metal chain.

There is an overbearing idea in Catholicism that pain is holy. Now, there is a difference between true forms of penance, like fasting, and false ones, such as inflicting pain. Besides being psychologically unhealthy, false penance is aggressive against oneself, but passive ones are natural and encouraged by Christ himself.

Take this quotation from Josemaira Escriva, in his book The Way, 208: "Let us bless pain. Love pain. Sanctify pain... Glorify pain!"

Belonging to one denomination or another is not on the list.

But Orthodoxy is not just another denomination, it is the indivisible Church of Christ. The Fathers, preserving the doctrine of the Apostles, hold that there is no salvation outside the Church: we can never, therefore, be sure of the salvation of those without the Church, no matter how good or holy they may seem. Of course, the Lord saves whomever he chooses, but we certainly can never be sure of their salvation as when the Church proclaims saints.

PS. JP II had devotion to an Orthodox saint, I believe. This and the fact that St. Gregory Palamas is in the Catholic calendar would mean then, logically, that submission to the Pontifex Romanus is certainly not necessary for salvation and the Catholic Church has contradicted itself.

[Stamfordguy]

It would appear that I've stumbled into a hotbed of bigots. I had no idea that someone who brands the pope as the anti-Christ and the Roman Catholic Church as a cesspool as well as the Church of Satan would be so vigorously defended when challenged. Indeed... it is we who ask for circumspect speech who are told to stop branding Tom with mud. Excuse me... but could you possibly take a look at the trigger words here, Sir? Cesspool? Church of Satan? Anti-Christ? Please... get a grip, Man. 

[Anastasios]

Since there is currently no moderator for this subsection and since the two global moderators have not checked in yet, I will just step in and say Tom, please apologize for your comment about Catholic Churches burning to the ground.

Anastasios

[Anastasios]

You seem to misrepresent my posistion as well, I argue from two perspectives simultaniously. The first and greatest is based on the Authority of the Church, this is true; but also, I argue that the Patriarchate of Constantinople is upholding Orthodoxy by her Actions, thus making those who claim Her Orthodox Actions are heretical, must, rationally speaking, he heretical themselves, for they stand at odds with the Orthodox Teachings of Constantinople. Now, we could probably go on for many pages about the theological arguments, but I believe that, in both our cases, our posistions are shaped primarily by experience, with academic arguments comming later, thus only by a change in experience could our posistions change, and probably quite a dramatic change in both our cases.

But I have extensive experience in both the New Calendar and Old Calendar Greek Churches while you only have experience in the New Calendar Greek Church. So you will once again be defeated mwuhahahahahahaahahahah   Seriously, though, it was academic arguments that changed me, not primarily experience, as I tend to have good experiences in both bodies.

This part of the statement seems dangerously close to theological relativism; and while my soteriology is very forgiving, it doesn't excuse (even if it may forgive) either schism or heresy.

I am not a relativist. I clearly believe in the GOC but I am here discussing both points of view.

Anastasios

[Stamfordguy]

Frankly Tom's wish that the Roman Catholic churches burn to the ground could be construed as a veiled threat and should receive the severest censure.

[Anastasios]

Frankly it could be construed as a veiled threat and should receive the severest censure.

I know Tom personally and it is not a veiled threat.  It is highly rude and unacceptable for our forum though.

Anastasios

[prodromos]

Sorry I'm late.

TomS, I've put you on a leash for a few days which is going to be a bl**dy pain for us moderators as we have to OK all of your posts in the mean time. I only check my email twice a day though, so your posts may sit in limbo for a while.

John the BMFH

[ozgeorge]

I fully support the actions of the moderators in this regard, and I think it's wise.

And granted, I only know TomS from online, but before anyone judges him too harshly, I think his recent online behaviour is out of character even for him. I really think he is a good man, and much of what he says is just "testing the waters" (or just plain teasing). This, however, seems different. We don't know anyone's story on this forum, so we shouldn't be too quick to judge just from what they write. Of course, I'm in no way advocating that people should be permitted to be as rude and offensive online as they like. What I am saying is that...well...this just didn't sound at all like "our TomS", and none of us knows what is going on for him at the moment.

Just look at TomS' past posts....he can be annoying, he can be challenging, but never has he come out with this sort of rudeness and offensive language before. If one of my horses becomes aggressive and starts kicking, it's usually because they have a wound or a bruised fetlock that needs some TLC. Same goes for people.

[Ntinos]

If you are a member of the Orthodox Church and you think otherwise - then you are basically saying that it does not matter which church you belong to.

Do you feel there is Salvation in the Roman Catholic church? If you do, then why did you leave it? And please, go BACK TO IT!!!

You say such things to people who have joined the Orthodox Church? Don't you understand this is actually doing harm to your Church? You are pretty much forcing them away.

[ozgeorge]

You say such things to people who have joined the Orthodox Church? Don't you understand this is actually doing harm to your Church? You are pretty much forcing them away.

I am sure (call it a "gut" feeling) that he was not in his right mind when he wrote these things. Look at all his posts in the past...he may have been annoying, but he was never viscious or malicious before....This is too out of character to be normal. We all "lose it" sometimes.

[GiC]

But I have extensive experience in both the New Calendar and Old Calendar Greek Churches while you only have experience in the New Calendar Greek Church. So you will once again be defeated mwuhahahahahahaahahahah ÂÂ  Seriously, though, it was academic arguments that changed me, not primarily experience, as I tend to have good experiences in both bodies.

Of course, I could come back and say that thus is the danger of associating with those outside the Church I'm guessing that had you lacked this experience with these kind, yet misguided, people you probably wouldn't have been as likely to take up their cause.

[GiC]

You say such things to people who have joined the Orthodox Church? Don't you understand this is actually doing harm to your Church? You are pretty much forcing them away.

'I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.'

Furthermore, while TomS was probably somewhat uncharitable in his posts, the Latin Church more than deserves any and all hostility that is thrown their way. Even if they are innocent of a given charge, they have done enough evil elsewhere to make up for it; we must not forget that they are responsible for the sacking of our cities, the murder of our peple, the rape of our women, and the destruction of our Christian faith. Of course, if they truly ask for forgiveness it should be granted, but the fact that they are still in posession of our relics and still outside of our faith clearly demonstrates that they have not; let us seek reconciliation, but let us also recognize that much of the work of Rome for the past thousand years has been the work of Satan against the Church of Christ, and as witnessed in the Balkans over the last century, this working of evil continues.

[SouthSerb99]

It would appear that I've stumbled into a hotbed of bigots. I had no idea that someone who brands the pope as the anti-Christ and the Roman Catholic Church as a cesspool as well as the Church of Satan would be so vigorously defended when challenged. Indeed... it is we who ask for circumspect speech who are told to stop branding Tom with mud. Excuse me... but could you possibly take a look at the trigger words here, Sir? Cesspool? Church of Satan? Anti-Christ? Please... get a grip, Man.ÂÂ  

Yes, I looked carefully at the "trigger words" and they were/are indeed inappropriate (as I stated originally).ÂÂ  However, I've been around here a tad bit longer than you and I've been exposed to much more of TomS than you, and my words about Tom were based on my experience having known him (albeit online) for some time now.

Often, I feel as though TomS likes to get a rise out of people, but that doesn't make him a bigot.ÂÂ  In fact, IMHO, Tom is the exact opposite of a bigot.ÂÂ  He obviously has strong feelings about the RCC and he expressed them (rather poorly).ÂÂ  Kind of the same way the RCC expressed her opinions (rather poorly) when dealing with the "Serbian problem" in the Balkans, or the sacking of our cities, etc...

[ozgeorge]

Often, I feel as though TomS likes to get a rise out of people, but that doesn't make him a bigot.ÂÂ  In fact, IMHO, Tom is the exact opposite of a bigot.ÂÂ

Hear Hear!
(With apologies to Tom for the horse analogy!)

[Jennifer]

The moderators have done the right thing here by stepping in.  I agree that TomS's behavior was unusual for him however he's shown his bigotry towards the RCC before.  I've been told by RCs who have visited this forum that he has harassed them with anti-Catholic PMs. 

Now as for GiC, he chooses his words very carefully so one can be sure that he intends to write what he writes.  I don't think he lets his emotions get in the way like TomS.  However, I believe that GiC sees this forum as a playground.  He likes to play with people by writing things that he knows will incite them. 

[ozgeorge]

Jennifer,
The judgements you have passed on TomS & GiC are noted......and disagreed with.
Thank you,
George

[ozgeorge]

And before you make any more libellous claims Jennifer, I think you should know that the moderators can in fact read pms. So if they cannot substantiate your claim that TomS has sent harrassing pms, I expect you to publically retract your slanderous claim and ask his forgiveness.

[Anastasios]

Jennifer,

Please PM me the names of people that Tom has harassed via our PM system and approximate dates. If you don't want to do this, please remove this charge from your above post.  I am not condoning Tom's actions but you have made a charge and I would like to investigate it.

Thanks!

Anastasios

[prodromos]

If anyone had been harassed by anyone via PM, I would hope they would immediately bring it to the attention of the Admins and moderators. Since no one has ever done so in regards to TomS in the past, I have to take the allegations with a grain of salt.

I hope Jennifer will retract her claim and apologise.

[Stamfordguy]

If the language used recently by a number of posters and not just Tom, was not blatant bigotry, I'd like to know just how the word is defined around here. Furthermore, it's been my experience that most Orthodox Christians are far more loving and charitable in speaking with and about "other" Christians. Calling Roman Catholics Latins, for instance, is yet another example of provocative, mean-spirited language. And to say, "the Latin Church more than deserves any and all hostility that is thrown their way is clearly yet another sad example of bigotry AFAIC..

Surely you cannot for a single minute believe that the recent posts regarding other Christians has demonstrated the love and concern that should be the hallmark of a Christian. I know that all of you are acquainted with the expression: we know where the Church is but we do not know where it is not. I've certainly no illusions that only Orthodox Christians comprise the Body of Christ. I'm convinced, as is my priest and bishop, that our Lord has "other" sheep as it were in other churches and that includes the Roman Catholic Church. I fully understand that there are great animosities existing here particularly among those of certain ethnic backgrounds for past grievances. But they are past and they should be left in the past. It's time to go forward and stop revisiting the past. To liken the Church today to some Satanic organization that deserves all the hostility that can be thrown its way" is so completely anathema to the Christian way of life that I'm amazed no one here has condemned such outright hate-speech. Our speech betrays our hearts. You know this as well as I. Please... let's cut the unloving descriptives of other Christians. If you are concerned about their welfare (and you SHOULD be), then I might add that you have a very strange way indeed of showing it. If I were a Catholic who had somehow stumbled upon this discussion, I would not only be deeply offended but I would in all probability run as fast as I could in the opposite direction.

[Stamfordguy]

Jennifer,
The judgements you have passed on TomS & GiC are noted......and disagreed with.
Thank you,
George

Correction. The judgments are noted and disagreed with by YOU and a few others. I happen to strongly concur with Jennifer's judgments regarding the recent speech of these two individuals. Granted, I do not have enough information to make a definitive judgment, but certainly based upon the language used yesterday I would have to side with Jennifer.

Regards,

[ozgeorge]

I happen to strongly concur with Jennifer's judgments regarding the recent speech of these two individuals.

Good for you.....
The matter has been dealt with by the moderators, and TomS has graciously accepted their decision.....get over it.
The matter at hand is that Jennifer has made claims about TomS which are slanderous lies unless she can prove them (which I doubt she can).

[Anastasios]

Stamfordguy,

In calling Roman Catholics Latins we are merely following the lead of our teacher St. Nikodemos the Haghiorite.

As for the poster who says the RCC deserves all the animosity that can be thrown its way, I find that post just as offensive as you do.  However, this is his opinion and he has not broken any forum rules. The forum relies on both moderatorial oversight and self-policing, which is what concerned persons such as yourself do when they report posts, complain in public, etc.  We appreciate it.  The thing is, in our experience, overmoderating people results in more problems than it solves.

I cannot agree with your statement about moving beyond the past though because the RCC has not repented of its relic stealing, participation in the murders of Serbs during WWII, or heresy.  I don't hold any animosity towards the RCC like some here but it's not time to embrace their Church as a sister Church.

Anastasios

[Anastasios]

I am closing this thread as soon as the people still posting in it finish.

[GiC]

If the language used recently by a number of posters and not just Tom, was not blatant bigotry, I'd like to know just how the word is defined around here. Furthermore, it's been my experience that most Orthodox Christians are far more loving and charitable in speaking with and about "other" Christians. Calling Roman Catholics Latins, for instance, is yet another example of provocative, mean-spirited language. And to say, "the Latin Church more than deserves any and all hostility that is thrown their way is clearly yet another sad example of bigotry AFAIC..

I tend to avoid the term 'Roman Catholic' because from our point of view, it is simply inaccurate. The Latin Church is not the Roman Church, the Orthodox Church is the Roman Church, for Constantinople is the Imperial See; it was in New Rome, not Old Rome, where the Christian Emperors ruled. Furthermore, it is most certainly not a catholic church, for the Latins are out of Communion with the Universal Church. The reason I use the term 'Latin' is because it seems, to me at least, more charitable than the term 'papist,' though I can begin using the latter if you would prefer.

Surely you cannot for a single minute believe that the recent posts regarding other Christians has demonstrated the love and concern that should be the hallmark of a Christian. I know that all of you are acquainted with the expression: we know where the Church is but we do not know where it is not. I've certainly no illusions that only Orthodox Christians comprise the Body of Christ. I'm convinced, as is my priest and bishop, that our Lord has "other" sheep as it were in other churches and that includes the Roman Catholic Church. I fully understand that there are great animosities existing here particularly among those of certain ethnic backgrounds for past grievances. But they are past and they should be left in the past. It's time to go forward and stop revisiting the past. To liken the Church today to some Satanic organization that deserves all the hostility that can be thrown its way" is so completely anathema to the Christian way of life that I'm amazed no one here has condemned such outright hate-speech. Our speech betrays our hearts. You know this as well as I. Please... let's cut the unloving descriptives of other Christians. If you are concerned about their welfare (and you SHOULD be), then I might add that you have a very strange way indeed of showing it. If I were a Catholic who had somehow stumbled upon this discussion, I would not only be deeply offended but I would in all probability run as fast as I could in the opposite direction.

While I am an ecumenist, and have elsewhere defended the ecumenist movement, what I desire to see relative to Rome is a true conversion and return to the Christian faith. I do not advocate reunion without a fundamental change to the Latin church, but I sincerely pray that we can effect a conversion of them to the Christian faith, and see a return of the Latins to Christianity in humility and obedience to the Church; not that I'm optimistic, but we should at least give it a try. As far as labeling the Conduct of the Latin Church 'Satanic,' what other term would you recommend I use for those who destroy our cities, invade the nations of the Orthodox, steal our relics, murder our Faithful, live in schism and heresy, and blaspheme against our God? Surely you dont expect me to use the adjective 'angelic' in reference to such actions.

Finally, while I would say that we know where the Holy Spirit is, yet not where He is not, I believe we can be quite certain where the Church both is and is not. It was established by Christ and has been Preserved through the Ages, and in Her ranks are neither heretics nor schismatics.

[Stamfordguy]

Good for you.....
The matter has been dealt with by the moderators, and TomS has graciously accepted their decision.....get over it.
The matter at hand is that Jennifer has made claims about TomS which are slanderous lies unless she can prove them (which I doubt she can).

Get over it? Tom has graciously accepted their decision? Jennifer has made slanderous lies? You doubt she can prove them? Perhaps you would be well advised by the adage, "Physician, heal thyself."

[ozgeorge]

Get over it? Tom has graciously accepted their decision? Jennifer has made slanderous lies? You doubt she can prove them? Perhaps you would be well advised by the adage, "Physician, heal thyself."

Well, let's wait and see if Jennifer can prove it shall we?

[Stamfordguy]

Stamfordguy,

In calling Roman Catholics Latins we are merely following the lead of our teacher St. Nikodemos the Haghiorite.

As for the poster who says the RCC deserves all the animosity that can be thrown its way, I find that post just as offensive as you do.  However, this is his opinion and he has not broken any forum rules. The forum relies on both moderatorial oversight and self-policing, which is what concerned persons such as yourself do when they report posts, complain in public, etc.  We appreciate it.  The thing is, in our experience, overmoderating people results in more problems than it solves.

I cannot agree with your statement about moving beyond the past though because the RCC has not repented of its relic stealing, participation in the murders of Serbs during WWII, or heresy.  I don't hold any animosity towards the RCC like some here but it's not time to embrace their Church as a sister Church.

Anastasios

Who said anything about embracing their Church as a sister Church? I'm simply saying that we need to speak with more charity about other Christians.

[Jennifer]

If anyone had been harassed by anyone via PM, I would hope they would immediately bring it to the attention of the Admins and moderators. Since no one has ever done so in regards to TomS in the past, I have to take the allegations with a grain of salt.

I hope Jennifer will retract her claim and apologise.

I checked my PMs and the PMs I received that referenced harassing PMs from Tom are gone.  Wasn't there some system change several months ago that erased old PMs?  I don't remember who contacted me about this.  She briefly posted here and was offended by Tom's spiteful comments about the RCC.  I contacted her to let her know that Tom didn't speak for most of us and she told me that she had received several PMs from Tom which she considered to be harrassment.  I told her to send them to the moderators.  This was about the end of last year. 

If he didn't do it then I apologize. 

[ozgeorge]

If he didn't do it then I apologize.ÂÂ  

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts........

How about: "I have no evidence that TomS made harrassing pms, therefore, I retract my charge and apologise to him."

[Jennifer]

Good for you.....
The matter has been dealt with by the moderators, and TomS has graciously accepted their decision.....get over it.
The matter at hand is that Jennifer has made claims about TomS which are slanderous lies unless she can prove them (which I doubt she can).

I can't prove it because my PMs from that time period were erased.  However, I believe what that person told me.  I'm not surprised that he would write in a PM what he written publicly here, that the RCC is evil.  This person was a good Roman Catholic who came here to learn more about Orthodoxy and was bombarded (according to her) with PMs from Tom about how evil the RCC was.  She considered it to be harrassment.  If I visited an RC board and received numerous PMs arguing that the Orthodox Church was "evil" I would also consider it harassment. ÂÂ

[SouthSerb99]

I can't prove it because my PMs from that time period were erased.  However, I believe what that person told me.  I'm not surprised that he would write in a PM what he written publicly here, that the RCC is evil.  This person was a good Roman Catholic who came here to learn more about Orthodoxy and was bombarded (according to her) with PMs from Tom about how evil the RCC was.  She considered it to be harrassment.  If I visited an RC board and received numerous PMs arguing that the Orthodox Church was "evil" I would also consider it harassment.

With all due respect, this is entirely 100%, unadulterated hearsay and not worthy of discussion.

Please do not accuse someone of PM harrassment based upon the uncorroborated word of another (which has since been erased).  This is hearsay, piled on hearsay.

[ozgeorge]

I can't prove it because my PMs from that time period were erased.  However, I believe what that person told me.  I'm not surprised that he would write in a PM what he written publicly here, that the RCC is evil.  This person was a good Roman Catholic who came here to learn more about Orthodoxy and was bombarded (according to her) with PMs from Tom about how evil the RCC was.  She considered it to be harrassment.  If I visited an RC board and received numerous PMs arguing that the Orthodox Church was "evil" I would also consider it harassment. ÂÂ

Well then, tell the moderators who she was, so they can investigate it......
Don't tell me you've forgoitten her name after what must have been a long series of exchanges between you and her. Or did she randomnly pick a name out from the memberlist to pour her heart out to and only did this in one pm to you?

[Anastasios]

OK people. Robert has the lost PM's on his computer at home. We are intending to restore them as soon as we have time (remember he works full time AND goes to school full time).  At any rate, I will look at the PM's in question, etc., but for right now this thread needs to be closed. How about we all just cool down and bury the hatchet.

Anastasios

[TomS]

I've been told by RCs who have visited this forum that he has harassed them with anti-Catholic PMs.ÂÂ  

That is an outright LIE!

Ask ANYBODY on this board if I have EVER sent them a harassing PM !

In fact - I ask Bobby or any other person with the skills to do so, to go back through ALL my PM's and provide this proof.