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Author Topic: Babies not baptised go to hell  (Read 2791 times) Average Rating: 0
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TruthSeeker
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« on: September 01, 2005, 02:01:22 AM »

Some, like the catholics, believe that unbaptised babies will not inherit heaven. We can thank Augustine for that I think.

This is how I KNOW that doctrine is false and even of the devil in my opinion. This is an absolute horrific doctrine that makes God into an unloving, and unjust beast god. How on earth the western church could have ever accepted this doctrine is beyond me as it goes directly contrary to Gods just and ever loving nature.

Those that believe this doctrine need to spend a week with my special need daughter.

I have a special needs daughter that is 8 years old but she is more like a baby. Her mind is perhaps 18 months.
She does not sin and in fact only exudes love. Everyone that comes into contact with her is blessed.
At times she follows something in the room with her eyes, and reaches out with her arms, and goes into the most joyful laughter. I am certain she is seeing angles.


So I need no verses from scripture or the fathers to know that I am correct....God has shown me by perfect example.

I just thought I'd share that we you all....and I hope some catholics are reading this too.

« Last Edit: September 01, 2005, 04:21:37 AM by TruthSeeker » Logged

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aurelia
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« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2005, 10:51:03 AM »

I never understood that thinking either.  What of all the Dumpster babies...wouldn't God take and love them too? Or whatever other circumstances you could think of. 
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FrChris
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« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2005, 10:59:12 AM »

It was once explained to me that the future is not so bleak for unbaptised babies in the Roman Catholic world as is often discussed. In their circumstances, the 'baptism by desire' situation would apply, where the baby's soul would certainly seek to avoid limbo and in effect have been baptised Catholic.

Yes, this contradicts other writings made about this situation, but I was urged to 'just stick with this one' and move on to other things.



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« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2005, 11:34:30 AM »

Well, I do have a special needs cousin who is 38 years old and not only is he (almost) sinless,
he is a very devoted Orthodox Christian. He acts just like a 3-year-old child, and he's only worries
is to be with his relatives, not to miss the Divine Liturgy and to make everyone around happy.

Of course, he has been baptised so it's not that good as an example but anyway, personally I can't
say that all these unbaptised babies go to heaven. Not that I think otherwise but I haven't studied the
matter (see what Saints and Church Fathers say upon the matter) and secondly no one can be sure
about God's will and plans for life.

Ο εν Χριστώ αδελφός σας.
Your brother, in Christ.
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« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2005, 11:50:53 AM »

This isn't exactly a statement about baptism, per se, but I wonder about all the babies adopted from Russia and E. Europe.  Most of them were probably put in orphanages right after they were born, but certainly *some* of them must have been baptized Orthodox.  Then a Protestant, Catholic, Mormon, whatever, family adopts them and raises them outside of the Orthodox faith. From some reason, this always seems particuliarly sad, even tragic to me.  These children won't know Orthodoxy, absolutely through no fault of their own.  I've even wondered if there is a special prayer that can be said for them.  I've been meaning to ask the priest, but I always forget.  Maybe in ten years or so, there will be a mass of adopted Russian children converting to Orthodoxy!

(Remember the story about the adoptive father beating the kids on the flight home from Russia?? Other passengers missed their connecting flights to give statements to the police.  If that doesn't rip your heart out...)
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TruthSeeker
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« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2005, 12:18:15 PM »

Babies are without sin and those that are severely menatally handicapped never sin either.
God is just and will raise these people up some day for his glory.

One can be certain on some things regarding Gods will....not everything is a mystery, although much is. Many things of God can never be understood yet a few things can only be understood by experience, and this is how God has shown me. He has shown me total purity, total innocence and pure heavenly love in my daughter.


My daughter has reached a higher point of theosis than any man that has ever sinned on the earth and still lives on the earth. She herself has not participated in this as a normal person does....God has kept her pure because she does not sin.

We often forget what babies are really like because they grow up in mind so fast and start to sin...for example, a two year old does sin. But imagine being with a person that never grows up in mind....it slowly becomes very evident that this soul is without sin....so much so that all doubt about the persons positive standing with God leaves you.

I have asked a priest about this and he said that "she, unlike us, is assured eternal live."



« Last Edit: September 01, 2005, 12:25:45 PM by TruthSeeker » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2005, 01:55:17 PM »

For me, I believe God is a very loving and merciful God, thus, a unbaptised baby that dies (whatever religion they are born into) goes directly to the Heavenly Arms of God, my opinion of course, but for me this is the Truth.

Especially aborted babies they never had the chance to be baptized or "sin" and I know there is some kind of special "Garden" for them with Jesus.

All in symbolism that I am saying of course.

In Christ,
Hadel
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« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2005, 11:31:51 AM »

This isn't exactly a statement about baptism, per se, but I wonder about all the babies adopted from Russia and E. Europe.  Most of them were probably put in orphanages right after they were born, but certainly *some* of them must have been baptized Orthodox.  Then a Protestant, Catholic, Mormon, whatever, family adopts them and raises them outside of the Orthodox faith. From some reason, this always seems particuliarly sad, even tragic to me.  These children won't know Orthodoxy, absolutely through no fault of their own.  I've even wondered if there is a special prayer that can be said for them.  I've been meaning to ask the priest, but I always forget.  Maybe in ten years or so, there will be a mass of adopted Russian children converting to Orthodoxy!

(Remember the story about the adoptive father beating the kids on the flight home from Russia?? Other passengers missed their connecting flights to give statements to the police.  If that doesn't rip your heart out...)


This depresses me too. I was doing laundry in my apartment complexes laundry room when someone left a copy of some feel-goody Evangelical protestant family magazine. Being nosy, I of course read it. There was a story about a woman who adopted two boys from Russia who were ages 7-9. The author described with great glee how the boys threw out their "evil graven images"  and "got saved".  I was nearly sick to my stomach.

At ages 7 and 9 those boys were obviously baptized and were old enough to know their faith. I pray for them to find the Orthodox church again. 
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« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2005, 11:41:46 AM »

I spit in the face of a GOD that would condemn an infant to Hell.
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« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2005, 02:11:48 PM »

The "fact of revelation" so to speak, is that man as he is, is a fallen creature.  He is born into bondage, left to his own devices, he will not fail to displease God.  It's not self-help, positive-affirmation stuff, but I think most honest people will realize that people as they are (and if they're really honest, themselves in particular) are pretty crummy.  Even the best of us, are capable of the most horrid things - and the tendency to be this way is pretty much "died in the wool", a potential that is there from the cradle.

Also, it could be pointed out that "the flesh" in and of itself, cannot inherit "the spirit" (as those terms are understood in Scripture) - with that said, the end of "heaven" cannot be inherited by that which is not in the grace of God.

It really goes back to that old, scandalous teaching of the Fathers "no salvation outside of the Church", which at it's heart is rooted in the notion of there being no salvation apart from the Lord Jesus Christ.  He is the "new humanity", and if one is not a participant in this, they're members of something fallen, and destined for a bad end since at best, it has nothing going for it in eternity (and at worst, has all manner of willful sins to wound the conscience with.)

Now the problem is, those things are all easy to say, easy to assert, but difficult to justly apply.  Various people (including Church Fathers) have made attempts to concretely apply them (such as both Sts.Augustine of Hippo and Cyprian of Carthage), struggling along the way with the obvious "hard cases."

Which is precisely why, at the end of the day, while you see Christians historically saying that there are some amongst them who they undeniably believe (based on a pious life and miracles) have inherited their reward in Heaven, they are not nearly this sure when saying who is or isn't in hell (though most would seem to say it's a safe bet that Judas Iscariot is - after all, what else could merit it being said by the Lord that it would have been better he, Judas, had been not born at all?).

Thus while it doesn't satisfy curiosity, I think the only actual answer to those hard cases is to say little if anything at all.  It just seems to me that when folks don't do this, they go to one extreme or another - they either diminish the holiness of God and the horror of sin and the shadow it casts over things, or at the other end God is portrayed in a way that makes Him seem unaware of even the most basic standards of justice.

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« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2005, 02:39:36 PM »

Thus while it doesn't satisfy curiosity, I think the only actual answer to those hard cases is to say little if anything at all.ÂÂ  It just seems to me that when folks don't do this, they go to one extreme or another - they either diminish the holiness of God and the horror of sin and the shadow it casts over things, or at the other end God is portrayed in a way that makes Him seem unaware of even the most basic standards of justice.

A wise answer.
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Michael
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« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2005, 10:46:59 AM »

We hear repeatedly in the services of the Church that "God is a good God and a friend of man".  This sums it up perfectly.  The idea of unbaptised babies going to hell is rooted in the western view of original sin.

Orthodoxy tells us that each of us born in the state of innocence that our first parents had in Eden, and that the Fall comes to each of us when we come to an awareness that there is an alternative to a life of obedience to God, and we begin to choose our own selfish wants and desires over God's will and our neighbour.  The innocence of children never ceases to amaze me.

I wrote this prayer during Holy Week this year:

Quote
God our Father, who formed our inward parts and knit us together in our mother's womb; as we meditate on the mystery of Christ's death and burial, help us to share in the grief of blessed Mary. Hers was the womb from which your beloved Son took human flesh, and so redeemed the world. Grant to all the unborn dead the grace that they would have received in Baptism. Turn the hearts of those who would end the lives of your little ones, for you have searched us and know the secrets of our hearts. Grant this through Jesus Christ, your only Son our Lord, Who lives and reigns with you, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, one God, now and unto the ages of ages. Amen.
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