Author Topic: David Bentley Hart: Christ's Rabble  (Read 10519 times)

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Offline RobS

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Re: David Bentley Hart: Christ's Rabble
« Reply #135 on: December 10, 2017, 06:15:53 PM »
A Mind-Bending Translation of the New Testament
David Bentley Hart’s text recaptures the awkward, multivoiced power of the original.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/01/the-new-testament-a-translation-david-bentley-hart/546551/

Quote
So what has he done to the New Testament, this bristling one-man band of a Christian literatus? The surprising aim, Hart tells us in his introduction, was to be as bare-bones and—where appropriate—unsqueamishly prosaic as he can. The New Testament, after all, is not a store of ancient wonders like the Hebrew Bible. It’s a grab bag of reportage, rumor, folk memory, and on-the-hoof mysticism produced by regular people, everyday babblers and clunkers, under the pressure of a supremely irregular event—namely, the life and death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. So that, says Hart, is what it should sound like. “Again and again,” he insists, “I have elected to produce an almost pitilessly literal translation; many of my departures from received practices are simply my efforts to make the original text as visible as possible through the palimpsest of its translation … Where an author has written bad Greek … I have written bad English.” Herein lies the fascination of this thing: its deliberate, one might say defiant, rawness and lowbrow-ness, as produced by a decidedly overcooked highbrow.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: David Bentley Hart: Christ's Rabble
« Reply #136 on: December 10, 2017, 09:11:57 PM »
I wish readers and reviewers weren't overlooking, in their shuddering excitement at this provocation, that Mr. Hart has no credentials as a translator or philologist and has never published a translation project before.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Offline recent convert

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Re: David Bentley Hart: Christ's Rabble
« Reply #137 on: December 10, 2017, 09:43:12 PM »
I realize that DBH is opposed to the Jesus Seminar project but samples of his translation given I.Atlantic Revew seem simple lad to theirs. This only pertains to the Gosp sos; the JS did not translate the entire NT. The JS translation includes gnostic “gospels”: 
   https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Gospels-Annotated-Scholars-expanded/dp/0060655879
We


Sorry for typos but it is difficult for me posting on an iPhone on break T work
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 09:45:04 PM by recent convert »
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: David Bentley Hart: Christ's Rabble
« Reply #138 on: December 10, 2017, 09:51:09 PM »
Let's just clarify one detail for a moment, neither Chomsky or Popper are/were positivists...

True,  neither is John Searle.  That's why I separated those names from the names of "old positivist like..." sorry if that wasn't clear.


@porter

True,  the Vienna Circle misread Witt. But for as bad as the ideas were,  I still say Carnap is 10000 times superior more honest than Martin "let's tiptoe through the Teutonic trees" Heidegaar and men like him.  And again,  positivism was honest enough a method to admit defeat.  I probably categorically deny a priori deny an academic theologian, a made up social science,  or a philosopher to "name the times" so to speak.   So if I hear phrases like "alienated by late modernity" or useless animistic geneologies from these people I'll just laugh at them.  I'm fine with those labels being used by artists or historians not infected on by philosophy,  that's appropriate... it's just such philosophers are worthless at best.

And I say, Who gives a crap? There's not one man in the lot who's mind was as valuable as the toilet paper he used at one sitting.

Quote
But when it comes to later Witt, he becomes hard to pin down,  I'm saying my readings varied differently between how some men read him.   I just gave the most simple rundown of the most basic three ways I can put him from various interpretations inn a sentence or two.   Of who the real Witt is,  I have no horse in the race.

He was a mentally-ill autistic kid who misinterpreted Kant's Critique of Pure Reason in the way Mr. Russell liked to, and did so in a cramped, numbered style based on the style of his father's Prussian bureaucratic engineering reports, which made Mr. Russell, the mathematician posing as a new kind of philosopher, ejaculate from his salivary glands. If one takes his numbers actually in the way he claimed they are to be used -- different levels of the outline building as syllogism on siblings at that level, etc. -- one achieves nonsense by any definition. The dazzle is in the details.

I see that your plebian anti-intellectualism knows no bounds.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline recent convert

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Re: David Bentley Hart: Christ's Rabble
« Reply #139 on: December 10, 2017, 09:57:33 PM »
I realize that DBH is opposed to the Jesus Seminar project but samples of his translation given in the Atlantic Review seems similar to theirs. This only pertains to the Gospels; the JS did not translate the entire NT. The JS translation includes gnostic “gospels”: 
   https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Gospels-Annotated-Scholars-expanded/dp/0060655879
We


Sorry for typos but it is difficult for me posting on an iPhone on break at work.   
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: David Bentley Hart: Christ's Rabble
« Reply #140 on: December 10, 2017, 09:58:53 PM »
Let's just clarify one detail for a moment, neither Chomsky or Popper are/were positivists...

True,  neither is John Searle.  That's why I separated those names from the names of "old positivist like..." sorry if that wasn't clear.


@porter

True,  the Vienna Circle misread Witt. But for as bad as the ideas were,  I still say Carnap is 10000 times superior more honest than Martin "let's tiptoe through the Teutonic trees" Heidegaar and men like him.  And again,  positivism was honest enough a method to admit defeat.  I probably categorically deny a priori deny an academic theologian, a made up social science,  or a philosopher to "name the times" so to speak.   So if I hear phrases like "alienated by late modernity" or useless animistic geneologies from these people I'll just laugh at them.  I'm fine with those labels being used by artists or historians not infected on by philosophy,  that's appropriate... it's just such philosophers are worthless at best.

And I say, Who gives a crap? There's not one man in the lot who's mind was as valuable as the toilet paper he used at one sitting.

Quote
But when it comes to later Witt, he becomes hard to pin down,  I'm saying my readings varied differently between how some men read him.   I just gave the most simple rundown of the most basic three ways I can put him from various interpretations inn a sentence or two.   Of who the real Witt is,  I have no horse in the race.

He was a mentally-ill autistic kid who misinterpreted Kant's Critique of Pure Reason in the way Mr. Russell liked to, and did so in a cramped, numbered style based on the style of his father's Prussian bureaucratic engineering reports, which made Mr. Russell, the mathematician posing as a new kind of philosopher, ejaculate from his salivary glands. If one takes his numbers actually in the way he claimed they are to be used -- different levels of the outline building as syllogism on siblings at that level, etc. -- one achieves nonsense by any definition. The dazzle is in the details.

I see that your plebian anti-intellectualism knows no bounds.

It doesn't work as well without the ridiculous avatars, but good try.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Rohzek

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Re: David Bentley Hart: Christ's Rabble
« Reply #141 on: December 11, 2017, 01:33:03 AM »
Let's just clarify one detail for a moment, neither Chomsky or Popper are/were positivists...

True,  neither is John Searle.  That's why I separated those names from the names of "old positivist like..." sorry if that wasn't clear.


@porter

True,  the Vienna Circle misread Witt. But for as bad as the ideas were,  I still say Carnap is 10000 times superior more honest than Martin "let's tiptoe through the Teutonic trees" Heidegaar and men like him.  And again,  positivism was honest enough a method to admit defeat.  I probably categorically deny a priori deny an academic theologian, a made up social science,  or a philosopher to "name the times" so to speak.   So if I hear phrases like "alienated by late modernity" or useless animistic geneologies from these people I'll just laugh at them.  I'm fine with those labels being used by artists or historians not infected on by philosophy,  that's appropriate... it's just such philosophers are worthless at best.

And I say, Who gives a crap? There's not one man in the lot who's mind was as valuable as the toilet paper he used at one sitting.

Quote
But when it comes to later Witt, he becomes hard to pin down,  I'm saying my readings varied differently between how some men read him.   I just gave the most simple rundown of the most basic three ways I can put him from various interpretations inn a sentence or two.   Of who the real Witt is,  I have no horse in the race.

He was a mentally-ill autistic kid who misinterpreted Kant's Critique of Pure Reason in the way Mr. Russell liked to, and did so in a cramped, numbered style based on the style of his father's Prussian bureaucratic engineering reports, which made Mr. Russell, the mathematician posing as a new kind of philosopher, ejaculate from his salivary glands. If one takes his numbers actually in the way he claimed they are to be used -- different levels of the outline building as syllogism on siblings at that level, etc. -- one achieves nonsense by any definition. The dazzle is in the details.

I see that your plebian anti-intellectualism knows no bounds.

It doesn't work as well without the ridiculous avatars, but good try.

I didn't "try" anything. All I did was point out that you have both the unchristian vitriol of Asmodeus and an incredibly childish demeanor when encountering academics, with whom you almost always disagree.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: David Bentley Hart: Christ's Rabble
« Reply #142 on: December 11, 2017, 12:58:28 PM »
You try to be a caricature of the irascibly arrogant grad student in some out-of-touch field. If you had an argument, you would have used it rather than hyperventilating. And, news flash, most folks don't lap up everything experts say. Academics have always been largely distrusted. Because you inhabit an artificial environment in which young students are bound by financial and disciplinary constraints to suck up to you, you grow increasingly unaware of the reality.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2017, 12:59:15 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Rohzek

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Re: David Bentley Hart: Christ's Rabble
« Reply #143 on: December 11, 2017, 03:44:30 PM »
You try to be a caricature of the irascibly arrogant grad student in some out-of-touch field. If you had an argument, you would have used it rather than hyperventilating. And, news flash, most folks don't lap up everything experts say. Academics have always been largely distrusted. Because you inhabit an artificial environment in which young students are bound by financial and disciplinary constraints to suck up to you, you grow increasingly unaware of the reality.

If caricatures are all that you can do to demean people then I'd say you're the one out of touch, not me.

My world of academia is more real and in-touch than yours so consumed with pathetic rants on a simple web forum.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2017, 03:54:32 PM by Rohzek »
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: David Bentley Hart: Christ's Rabble
« Reply #144 on: December 11, 2017, 05:22:20 PM »
You try to be a caricature of the irascibly arrogant grad student in some out-of-touch field. If you had an argument, you would have used it rather than hyperventilating. And, news flash, most folks don't lap up everything experts say. Academics have always been largely distrusted. Because you inhabit an artificial environment in which young students are bound by financial and disciplinary constraints to suck up to you, you grow increasingly unaware of the reality.

If caricatures are all that you can do to demean people then I'd say you're the one out of touch, not me.

No, I'm calling your performance here a caricature, but I'll admit that may be an excess of charity. Certainly you would know.

Quote
My world of academia is more real and in-touch than yours so consumed with pathetic rants on a simple web forum.

I'd hope your job is more real than this fraction of my leisure. That's not saying much.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Antonis

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Re: David Bentley Hart: Christ's Rabble
« Reply #145 on: January 16, 2018, 12:13:44 AM »
N.T. Wright offers a review of David Bentley Hart's New Testament translation:

https://www.christiancentury.org/review/books/new-testament-strange-words-david-bentley-hart
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Offline Antonis

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Re: David Bentley Hart: Christ's Rabble
« Reply #146 on: January 16, 2018, 12:22:12 AM »
N.T. Wright offers a review of David Bentley Hart's New Testament translation:

https://www.christiancentury.org/review/books/new-testament-strange-words-david-bentley-hart

I thought it was an interesting review that calls DBH on some of his idiosyncrasies, but Wright's Protestantism permeates his critiques. At least one of them is for something that sounds (and looks, iconographically) mighty Orthodox of DBH:

Quote
His own dogmatic commitments are clear in his reading of the parable of Dives and Lazarus in Luke 16. The tale turns on the assumption that the rich man and the beggar find themselves in radically different postmortem locations. But Hart insists that both Dives and Lazarus are in Hades, with Lazarus in a pleasant part of Hades called “the Vale of Abraham” (appealing to a metaphorical meaning of kolpos, which normally refers to someone’s lap or the equivalent folds of their clothes), so that Dives sees Abraham far off “and Lazarus in his vales.”
"Verily they that seek Thee, Lord, and keep the canons of Thy Holy Church shall never want any good thing.”
St. John the Merciful

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline Iconodule

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Re: David Bentley Hart: Christ's Rabble
« Reply #147 on: January 16, 2018, 11:02:03 AM »
Surely NT Wright is aware that Sheol/Hades being divided into good and bad parts was a mainstream Jewish thought at the time.
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Offline Antonis

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Re: David Bentley Hart: Christ's Rabble
« Reply #148 on: January 16, 2018, 10:13:39 PM »
"Verily they that seek Thee, Lord, and keep the canons of Thy Holy Church shall never want any good thing.”
St. John the Merciful

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline Alpha60

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Re: David Bentley Hart: Christ's Rabble
« Reply #149 on: January 19, 2018, 08:34:00 AM »
Surely NT Wright is aware that Sheol/Hades being divided into good and bad parts was a mainstream Jewish thought at the time.

One would hope, but Protestants in some cases, even learned scholars like NT Wright, for some peculiar reason, are less versed in ancient Judaism than the Orthodox.

For me, a careful study of ancient Judaism in comparison to modern Judaism was extremely helpful in understanding the true antiquity of the Orthodox faith and also how contemporary Judaism has drifted off course.

There is another issue as well: Protestant scholars, sometimes even reasonable Anglicans like NT Wright, tend to engage in theology on a Sola Scriptura basis and ignore the vital cultural and theological context provided by the belief system of the ancient Jews, and in some cases they might do this instinctively and to their discredit, as in this case.

I will say, from my perspective, NT Wright criticizing DBH on this issue makes his writing much less appealing to me.  Everyone makes mistakes, but NT Wright seems to me to be barking up the wrong tree.  I will confess however to being a huge fan of DBH; I loved his book Atheist Delusions, the most brilliant rebuttal of Dawkins and the New Atheists, and I don’t really see anything wrong or unorthodox about any of DBH’s books.  I find him inspirational as a modern Orthodox intellectual.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: David Bentley Hart: Christ's Rabble
« Reply #150 on: January 19, 2018, 02:27:16 PM »
Even though he seems to come closer and closer by the minute to just straight-up saying, "Marxism is the Gospel," huh?
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: David Bentley Hart: Christ's Rabble
« Reply #151 on: January 19, 2018, 02:33:16 PM »
When he says something nice about dialectical materialism, or anything that even smells like materialism, then I might think he's on the verge of saying "Marxism is the gospel." As it is, he seems about as far away from it as possible.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: David Bentley Hart: Christ's Rabble
« Reply #152 on: January 19, 2018, 03:10:53 PM »
When he says something nice about dialectical materialism, or anything that even smells like materialism, then I might think he's on the verge of saying "Marxism is the gospel." As it is, he seems about as far away from it as possible.

Then, "Liberation Theology is the Gospel?" Either way, I'm surprised that Alpha would approve.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline augustin717

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Re: David Bentley Hart: Christ's Rabble
« Reply #153 on: January 19, 2018, 03:32:47 PM »
Even though he seems to come closer and closer by the minute to just straight-up saying, "Marxism is the Gospel," huh?
that has quite a long pedigree in orthodox theology . Bulgakov said somewhere that orthodoxy is sacred/sanctified materialism.
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

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Re: David Bentley Hart: Christ's Rabble
« Reply #154 on: January 19, 2018, 03:35:44 PM »
Even though he seems to come closer and closer by the minute to just straight-up saying, "Marxism is the Gospel," huh?
that has quite a long pedigree in orthodox theology . Bulgakov said somewhere that orthodoxy is sacred/sanctified materialism.

All Marxism is materialist (unless you count Liberation Theology as materialist), but not all materialism is Marxist. I mean, Murray Rothbard was an atheist and yet in no sense a Marxist.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 03:41:06 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline augustin717

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Re: David Bentley Hart: Christ's Rabble
« Reply #155 on: January 19, 2018, 03:37:02 PM »
Even though he seems to come closer and closer by the minute to just straight-up saying, "Marxism is the Gospel," huh?
that has quite a long pedigree in orthodox theology . Bulgakov said somewhere that orthodoxy is sacred/sanctified materialism.

All Marxism is materialist (unless you count Liberation Theology as materialist), but not all materialism is Marxist.
he used to be a Marxist iiirc. I guess he was trying to win over other marxists.
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Offline Volnutt

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Re: David Bentley Hart: Christ's Rabble
« Reply #156 on: January 19, 2018, 03:40:45 PM »
Even though he seems to come closer and closer by the minute to just straight-up saying, "Marxism is the Gospel," huh?
that has quite a long pedigree in orthodox theology . Bulgakov said somewhere that orthodoxy is sacred/sanctified materialism.

All Marxism is materialist (unless you count Liberation Theology as materialist), but not all materialism is Marxist.
he used to be a Marxist iiirc. I guess he was trying to win over other marxists.

Ok, I didn't know that.

But I'd say that my point still stands. Orthodoxy may not be a friend to the international corporatocracy in the same way that American conservatives are, but they sure wouldn't do much to oppose it on principle (especially when the same plutocrats happen to make the right noises about Orthodox social hobby horses).
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.