Author Topic: "We are not ecumenists" (Patriarch Bartholomew)  (Read 1206 times)

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Offline RaphaCam

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"We are not ecumenists" (Patriarch Bartholomew)
« on: September 25, 2016, 04:47:30 PM »
Quote
With this tactic (the dialogue) we are not betraying Orthodoxy, as we have been accused, nor do we support ecumenist perceptions; rather, we preach to the heterodox and to everyone the Orthodox truth. [...]

They (the dialogues) do not aspire - as was written in both Bulgaria and elsewhere - to the creation of one, mutually accepted "aggregate" of beliefs. That is, there is no attempt through this so-called ecumenical movement to attain the acceptance of one "Christian syncretistic confession"; only a deeper penetration into the Christian Orthodox faith and the communal collaboration of all those who invoke the name of Christ. [...]

We Orthodox, who possess the fullness of the Truth, are not afraid - as it is thought - that we shall be influenced by the views of our heterodox brethren on dogmatic issues.

Source: http://oodegr.co/english/oikoumenismos/Patriarch_not_ecumenist.htm
« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 04:47:44 PM by RaphaCam »
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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: "We are not ecumenists" (Patriarch Bartholomew)
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2016, 04:33:48 AM »
Yes I remember this...

I think it is a textbook definition of speaking out of both sides of one's mouth.

Patriarch Bartholomew went to Bulgaria with a goal to defend himself and ecumenism in general from attacks, to persuade the Bulgarian Patriarchate, its clergy and laity that they are really on their side! Obviously it did not work as we can notice in the events before, during, and after the "Great and Holy Council".


At best it gave a vain hope that Patriarch Bartholomew IN TRUTH (not just in words) condemns branch theory 100%. But as can be seen, branch theory is still alive and well in the Ecumenical Patriarchate, in other churches, further especially in academia, and it is largely being unchecked.
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Offline Diego

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Re: "We are not ecumenists" (Patriarch Bartholomew)
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2016, 10:39:50 PM »
Yes I remember this...

I think it is a textbook definition of speaking out of both sides of one's mouth.

Patriarch Bartholomew went to Bulgaria with a goal to defend himself and ecumenism in general from attacks, to persuade the Bulgarian Patriarchate, its clergy and laity that they are really on their side! Obviously it did not work as we can notice in the events before, during, and after the "Great and Holy Council".


At best it gave a vain hope that Patriarch Bartholomew IN TRUTH (not just in words) condemns branch theory 100%. But as can be seen, branch theory is still alive and well in the Ecumenical Patriarchate, in other churches, further especially in academia, and it is largely being unchecked.

Out of pure curiosity, why would you say that the Branch Theory is alive and well in the Ecumenical Patriarchate? I am not asking to be a wise-a$$, I am actually genuinely curious. What has Bartholomew said or done that would make you think this?

Branch Theory being, for those who don't know, the primarily Anglican concept that there are three branches of the Catholic Faith, the Roman, The Eastern, and the English. It falters as a Theory insofar as it does NOT account for the Protestant strain that exists within the Church of England.

Some Lutherans hold the concept as well, particularly certain parts of the Church of Sweden, albeit ONLY parts.

The Roman Church seems to hold to a "Two Lungs" Theory, the idea that there is an East Lung of the Church, and a West Lung of the Church. John Paul II, Pope of Rome from 1978-2005, famously was quoted as saying, "The Church must breathe with both her lungs!" This Theory falters insofar as it does not take into account the thought that Rome considers herself superior to all other Bishops. Whilst the East might be willing to grant a Primacy Among Equals to Rome, there is no way they are going to grant any kind of jurisdictional control to the Roman Bishop.

Contrary to what some have said in this forum, I myself do not hold to the Branch Theory. How many Branches can their be, after all? Beyond this, the Lutheran Confessions as contained in the Book of Concord put her on a collision course with certain doctrines in the Roman Catholic Church, although as to how far that is actually the case may be debated, but that it IS actually the case cannot be disputed. While we are NOT in 1580 any more, and we are NOT burning each other at the stake, there ARE firm differences of belief. And lets be honest, we can't BOTH be right.

I do certainly consider myself to be part of the Church Catholic, but not in some Branch Concept. I simply regard the Roman Church as being Catholic albeit corrupted in certain respects. In terms of the purity of the Faith, I hold the Confessions to be more accurate than the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is the most recent document to come out (the first edition did so in 1992) and explain the dogma and doctrines of the RCC.

I can certainly agree with this sentence as quoted: "That is, there is no attempt through this so-called ecumenical movement to attain the acceptance of one "Christian syncretistic confession;..."

The difference between Patriarch Bartholomew and President Harrison of the Missouri Synod is that we simply don't involve ourselves in the Ecumenical Movement. We think, to be honest, that its all a bunch of crap. We are in Full Altar Fellowship with approximately 34 other Churches in the world, ALL of them Confessional Quia Lutheran Churches. Officially, we commune ONLY them, although the Pastor is able to make an exception for cases when a person is in dire need and holds substantially the same belief that we do.

As for example (although I realise that most of you would rather die that do this, and I totally respect that), most Pastors would agree to commune an Eastern Orthodox who was in danger of death or other severe situation. The same is true for ANYONE who believes objectively in the Real Presence of Christ in the Holy Communion.

So, seriously, back around to my question, what has the Patriarch said or done to make you believe that he supports the Branch Theory, of all things? That would CERTAINLY be a RADICAL departure from ordinary Orthodox practice.




Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: "We are not ecumenists" (Patriarch Bartholomew)
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2016, 10:47:31 PM »
Once you've been here longer (if you deserve that for your sins), you'll learn which posters push which buttons. For quite a few, being unreasonable about Constantinople is a compulsion.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: "We are not ecumenists" (Patriarch Bartholomew)
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2016, 11:07:37 PM »
Once you've been here longer (if you deserve that for your sins), you'll learn which posters push which buttons. For quite a few, being unreasonable about Constantinople is a compulsion.
Are you incipiently adopting the heresy of purgatory with OC.net as a great metaphor? Anathema!*just kidding*
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

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Offline Antonis

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Re: "We are not ecumenists" (Patriarch Bartholomew)
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2016, 11:35:52 PM »
I wish HH's words expressed here lined up with his and his synod's words and actions in every other context.
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Re: "We are not ecumenists" (Patriarch Bartholomew)
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2016, 11:39:33 PM »
I wish HH's words expressed here lined up with his and his synod's words and actions in every other context.

Roman Catholics are wonderful people and we should all thank God that they still exist because the world would be impoverished without them.  I love Rome.
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Since when has a Hierarch done anything for you? . . .

Offline Antonis

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Re: "We are not ecumenists" (Patriarch Bartholomew)
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2016, 11:53:30 PM »
I wish HH's words expressed here lined up with his and his synod's words and actions in every other context.

Roman Catholics are wonderful people and we should all thank God that they still exist because the world would be impoverished without them.  I love Rome.
Maybe in your lifetime there will be an icon of Peter and Thomas embracing.  ;)
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: "We are not ecumenists" (Patriarch Bartholomew)
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2016, 11:59:46 PM »
I wish HH's words expressed here lined up with his and his synod's words and actions in every other context.

Roman Catholics are wonderful people and we should all thank God that they still exist because the world would be impoverished without them.  I love Rome.
Maybe in your lifetime there will be an icon of Peter and Thomas embracing.  ;)

Almost there...
~O' Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, for the sake the prayers of Thy pure mother and all the saints, have mercy on us.~


~ You prepare in THIS life , the circumstances in your next life ~

Since when has a Hierarch done anything for you? . . .

Offline Antonis

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Re: "We are not ecumenists" (Patriarch Bartholomew)
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2016, 12:06:50 AM »
I wish HH's words expressed here lined up with his and his synod's words and actions in every other context.

Roman Catholics are wonderful people and we should all thank God that they still exist because the world would be impoverished without them.  I love Rome.
Maybe in your lifetime there will be an icon of Peter and Thomas embracing.  ;)

Almost there...
They look more like acquaintances in Christ, there. I'm sure we'll see better.
"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4