Author Topic: Christian support of the nation state of Israel  (Read 3849 times)

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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #90 on: September 23, 2016, 03:37:35 PM »
Basically, Orthodoxy does not see itself as yazychestvo. Non-Abrahamic polytheist religions are yazychestvo.

"Diego's" (WGW's?) plan that an "exception could be made" so that "the Christians" could stay in the homeland while all Arabs must leave in 30 days is unintelligble in Orthodox thinking.

In Orthodoxy, Christians are not yazychestvo.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 03:38:19 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Onesimus

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #91 on: September 23, 2016, 03:49:41 PM »
Whatever point your making isn't getting through to me either.   Other than you are somehow saying that the Hebrew term "goyim" "technically" means nation....which "technically" includes Israel, but not so in the Russian conception/word which more clearly defines a foriegn connotation?   I know next to nothing about Russian mind you.

In any case, relying on a words "technical" meaning rather than its idiomatic meaning and context is exactly the kind of subterfuge people use in arguments on this matter and many others.   Goy / goyim is a derogatory term with idiomatic meaning.   It's use makes a sentence or context pregnant with meaning.   The fact that it has a technical meaning only allows for evasiveness when confronted.   The word can certainly be used non-idiomatically.   But it is not always / predominantly so.   

I'm not sure what relationship evangelicalism has to the idiomatic nature of the concept of goy/goyim, or if that's not part of your point?

« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 03:51:52 PM by Onesimus »

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #92 on: September 23, 2016, 04:34:45 PM »
Whatever point your making isn't getting through to me either.   Other than you are somehow saying that the Hebrew term "goyim" "technically" means nation....which "technically" includes Israel, but not so in the Russian conception/word which more clearly defines a foriegn connotation? 
...
I'm not sure what relationship evangelicalism has to the idiomatic nature of the concept of goy/goyim, or if that's not part of your point?

Rapha had written about contemporary Evangelical Protestant thinking on the Middle East:
It's hard enough for many of us to understand something completely other than what the Church historically teaches...

I am sympathizing and saying that the apocalyptic modern Evangelicals are not going into learning what Christians have passed down for the last 1900+ years about how to understand these verses. They just open up their Bibles and compare Bible verses with their own political beliefs that they get from the Media.

An essay on the OCF website explains:
Quote
the Christian Church is not a Church of the Gentiles.
The reason is quite simple, the main point of Christ's mission in this respect was to destroy the wall of separation between Israel and Gentiles. According to Apostle Paul, Christ for us "is our peace who has made us both one and has broken down the dividing wall of enmity"(Eph 2.14). And this wall of separation is really destroyed in the Church as we believe. Orthodox Christians from any ethnic, cultural or national background become Israel in the Church, that very Israel of Abraham, Jacob and Isaac. This feeling of oneness with Israel of patriarchs and prophets is really very deep in Orthodoxy, and there are many feasts celebrated in their memory along with the memory of the Christian saints.
...
See also on this question, "Orthodoxy: Jewish and Christian." Fr. A. James Berstein, Concilliar Press, 1990

 In other words, we believe that only in Christ the very opposition of Jewish Israel and non-Jewish Gentiles which is the main source of enmity between them, is abolished. It is abolished in the New and yet Old Israel of God which is the Church of both Jews and Non-Jews who believe in Christ. Instead of Moltmann's phrase: "Christendom can gain Salvation only together with Israel"/ibid. p 90/, I would say, "Christendom can gain Salvation only being Israel",
http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/jewish_1.html

Now contrast the Orthodox teaching above with "Diego's" plan that an "exception" "could" be made for "the Christians" to live in their homeland but all Arabs must leave in 30 days. Why in Diego's mentality don't Christians have a right just like any one else to live in their homeland where they have been living for them? Why isn't it their homeland too? Why do we have to say that they only "could" possibly stay in their homeland? Why are they being singled out based on their religion as if their religion declassifies them from having a right to stay?

None of these propositions that cast out Christians as second class citizens make sense in Orthodox thinking.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #93 on: September 23, 2016, 04:38:17 PM »
I agree with you on the awfulness of the political eisegesis of Bible prophecies, but I was specifically talking about Romans 11.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 04:39:18 PM by RaphaCam »
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #94 on: September 23, 2016, 04:42:59 PM »
I agree with you on the awfulness of the political eisegesis of Bible prophecies, but I was specifically talking about Romans 11.
I understand. The same criticism can be made about other propositions and premises those "political exegetes" make.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 04:43:25 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #95 on: September 23, 2016, 04:45:13 PM »
Zionism is alive and well in some quarters of OC.Net, it seems these Zionist apologists would have also defended these people for killing Christ As well.

As I've known for such a long time now, anti-Zionism is often a cover for anti-Semitism.

It not anti-semitism, if it really did happen. It doesn't mean all Jews are guilty or responsible for the death of Christ, plus we are all are responsible too, since we all crucify him everyday with our sins.

Anyways I probably did act a little too emotional, and in hast due to Diego comments towards Arabs. I have went to a Orthodox Church with Palestinians who had their land stolen by European foreigners, who now call themselves "Israelis" so when Diego says the Arabs should be practically ethnic cleansed from their homelands, and Christians can stay, provided they become Israeli, yes I probably reacted too negative.

Offline mike

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #96 on: September 23, 2016, 04:46:26 PM »
Zionism is alive and well in some quarters of OC.Net, it seems these Zionist apologists would have also defended these people for killing Christ As well.

As I've known for such a long time now, anti-Zionism is often a cover for anti-Semitism.

It not anti-semitism, if it really did happen.

Not really.
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Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #97 on: September 23, 2016, 04:49:07 PM »
Zionism is alive and well in some quarters of OC.Net, it seems these Zionist apologists would have also defended these people for killing Christ As well.

As I've known for such a long time now, anti-Zionism is often a cover for anti-Semitism.

It not anti-semitism, if it really did happen.

Not really.

Then please point to Holy scripture, and patristic writings of the saints, and Church fathers where this never happened. Then I'll happily retract my statement inline with the Church.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 04:50:15 PM by seekeroftruth777 »

Offline mike

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #98 on: September 23, 2016, 04:51:18 PM »
Zionism is alive and well in some quarters of OC.Net, it seems these Zionist apologists would have also defended these people for killing Christ As well.

As I've known for such a long time now, anti-Zionism is often a cover for anti-Semitism.

It not anti-semitism, if it really did happen.

Not really.

Then please point to Holy scripture, and patristic writings of the saints, and Church fathers where this never happened. Then I'll happily retract my statement inline with the Church.

It's clear from the Gospel that Jesus was crucified by Roman soldiers, not Pharisees.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #99 on: September 23, 2016, 04:52:21 PM »
Zionism is alive and well in some quarters of OC.Net, it seems these Zionist apologists would have also defended these people for killing Christ As well.

As I've known for such a long time now, anti-Zionism is often a cover for anti-Semitism.

It not anti-semitism, if it really did happen.

Not really.

Then please point to Holy scripture, and patristic writings of the saints, and Church fathers where this never happened. Then I'll happily retract my statement inline with the Church.

That's easy. "These people," referring to people living in the present day, were not alive in 1st century Judaea.

Also, what mike said.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #100 on: September 23, 2016, 04:52:48 PM »
White people killed Lincoln.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 04:53:13 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #101 on: September 23, 2016, 04:55:12 PM »
Zionism is alive and well in some quarters of OC.Net, it seems these Zionist apologists would have also defended these people for killing Christ As well.

As I've known for such a long time now, anti-Zionism is often a cover for anti-Semitism.

It not anti-semitism, if it really did happen.

Not really.

Then please point to Holy scripture, and patristic writings of the saints, and Church fathers where this never happened. Then I'll happily retract my statement inline with the Church.

That's easy. "These people," referring to people living in the present day, were not alive in 1st century Judaea.

Also, what mike said.

These people refer to Zionists who presecute and do price tag attacks on native Christians, are they not crucifying Christ by persecuting his people? Btw Not all Zionists are Jews, the Evangelicals are by far more nutty due to  their end time dispensationalism for example.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 04:56:48 PM by seekeroftruth777 »

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #102 on: September 23, 2016, 04:57:37 PM »
Zionism is alive and well in some quarters of OC.Net, it seems these Zionist apologists would have also defended these people for killing Christ As well.

As I've known for such a long time now, anti-Zionism is often a cover for anti-Semitism.

It not anti-semitism, if it really did happen. It doesn't mean all Jews are guilty or responsible for the death of Christ, plus we are all are responsible too, since we all crucify him everyday with our sins.

Anyways I probably did act a little too emotional, and in hast due to Diego comments towards Arabs. I have went to a Orthodox Church with Palestinians who had their land stolen by European foreigners, who now call themselves "Israelis" so when Diego says the Arabs should be practically ethnic cleansed from their homelands, and Christians can stay, provided they become Israeli, yes I probably reacted too negative.

Reread the Gospels. The Jews didn't crucify our Lord. The Romans did.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline mike

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #103 on: September 23, 2016, 04:58:20 PM »
Zionists crucified Jesus. That's some creative history.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 04:58:30 PM by mike »
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Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #104 on: September 23, 2016, 05:02:59 PM »
Zionists crucified Jesus. That's some creative history.

They are crucifying him, when they persecute his people,no? Don't we all crucify him with our Sins?

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #105 on: September 23, 2016, 05:03:47 PM »
Zionism is alive and well in some quarters of OC.Net, it seems these Zionist apologists would have also defended these people for killing Christ As well.

As I've known for such a long time now, anti-Zionism is often a cover for anti-Semitism.

It not anti-semitism, if it really did happen. It doesn't mean all Jews are guilty or responsible for the death of Christ, plus we are all are responsible too, since we all crucify him everyday with our sins.

Anyways I probably did act a little too emotional, and in hast due to Diego comments towards Arabs. I have went to a Orthodox Church with Palestinians who had their land stolen by European foreigners, who now call themselves "Israelis" so when Diego says the Arabs should be practically ethnic cleansed from their homelands, and Christians can stay, provided they become Israeli, yes I probably reacted too negative.

Reread the Gospels. The Jews didn't crucify our Lord. The Romans did.

Yes, the Romans literally passed the death sentence and executed it.  That's hardly all that was involved in the death of Jesus, but that much is true.

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #106 on: September 23, 2016, 05:04:30 PM »
Ok.   I'm just trying to play referee a little.  Please don't attack me.   Turthseeker is working through this, and the gang tackle isn't really spot on either.   

Quote
"For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Judea that are in Christ Jesus. You suffered from your own countrymen the very things they suffered from the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and drove us out as well. They are displeasing to God and hostile to all men, hindering us from telling the Gentiles how they may be saved. As a result, they continue to heap up their sins to full capacity; the utmost wrath has come upon them.…"

Quote
You stiff-necked people with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit, just as your fathers did. 52Which of the prophets did your fathers fail to persecute? They even killed those who foretold the coming of the Righteous One. And now you are His betrayers and murderers— 53you who have received the Law ordained by angels, yet have not kept it.

Quote
24When Pilate saw that he was accomplishing nothing, but that instead a riot was breaking out, he took water and washed his hands before the crowd. “I am innocent of this man’s blood,” he said. “You shall bear the responsibility.” 25All the people answered, “His blood be on us and on our children!” 26So Pilate released Barabbas to them. But he had Jesus flogged and handed Him over to be crucified
.…

There's more...but the reality here is that the Jews are representative of all people's rebellion and "stiff-necked" resistance to God.   So are the Romans.

What the Jews  and the Romans conspired together to do is what any of us would have likely done.  Lord have mercy.   Perhaps we can forgive one another.  Remember, Paul at one time persected Christians unto death. 

Quote
I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and a violent man; yet because I had acted in ignorance and unbelief, I was shown mercy. And the grace of our Lord overflowed to me, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 05:10:45 PM by Onesimus »

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #107 on: September 23, 2016, 05:07:05 PM »
The Romans did.
Dear Rohzek, may I ask: Do you believe in such concepts of collective guilt, saying that "the Romans" committed this?

eg. "The Jews" did X, "The Americans" invaded Iraq, replaced Qaddafi with militants, etc.?
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #108 on: September 23, 2016, 05:07:27 PM »
Zionism is alive and well in some quarters of OC.Net, it seems these Zionist apologists would have also defended these people for killing Christ As well.

As I've known for such a long time now, anti-Zionism is often a cover for anti-Semitism.

It not anti-semitism, if it really did happen. It doesn't mean all Jews are guilty or responsible for the death of Christ, plus we are all are responsible too, since we all crucify him everyday with our sins.

Anyways I probably did act a little too emotional, and in hast due to Diego comments towards Arabs. I have went to a Orthodox Church with Palestinians who had their land stolen by European foreigners, who now call themselves "Israelis" so when Diego says the Arabs should be practically ethnic cleansed from their homelands, and Christians can stay, provided they become Israeli, yes I probably reacted too negative.

Reread the Gospels. The Jews didn't crucify our Lord. The Romans did.
1 Thessalonians 2:14-15
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #109 on: September 23, 2016, 05:10:11 PM »
Zionists crucified Jesus. That's some creative history.

They are crucifying him, when they persecute his people,no? Don't we all crucify him with our Sins?

So by "these people" you mean everyone. Gotcha.
Quote
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- Berdyaev

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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #110 on: September 23, 2016, 05:10:54 PM »
The Romans did.
Dear Rohzek, may I ask: Do you believe in such concepts of collective guilt, saying that "the Romans" committed this?

eg. "The Jews" did X, "The Americans" invaded Iraq, replaced Qaddafi with militants, etc.?

If moral philosophy were so easy, we would have had a compelling answer to that question long ago.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #111 on: September 23, 2016, 05:13:13 PM »
Zionists crucified Jesus. That's some creative history.

They are crucifying him, when they persecute his people,no? Don't we all crucify him with our Sins?

So by "these people" you mean everyone. Gotcha.

Boy your the cranky type


Offline Onesimus

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #112 on: September 23, 2016, 05:13:26 PM »
Zionists crucified Jesus. That's some creative history.

They are crucifying him, when they persecute his people,no? Don't we all crucify him with our Sins?

So by "these people" you mean everyone. Gotcha.
Sorry, I can't resist.   ;D



Offline Rohzek

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #113 on: September 23, 2016, 05:16:40 PM »
Zionism is alive and well in some quarters of OC.Net, it seems these Zionist apologists would have also defended these people for killing Christ As well.

As I've known for such a long time now, anti-Zionism is often a cover for anti-Semitism.

It not anti-semitism, if it really did happen. It doesn't mean all Jews are guilty or responsible for the death of Christ, plus we are all are responsible too, since we all crucify him everyday with our sins.

Anyways I probably did act a little too emotional, and in hast due to Diego comments towards Arabs. I have went to a Orthodox Church with Palestinians who had their land stolen by European foreigners, who now call themselves "Israelis" so when Diego says the Arabs should be practically ethnic cleansed from their homelands, and Christians can stay, provided they become Israeli, yes I probably reacted too negative.

Reread the Gospels. The Jews didn't crucify our Lord. The Romans did.
1 Thessalonians 2:14-15

Is this supposed to mean something? Were the Epistles ever known for the historical accuracy? Was Paul there at the crucifixion? Besides, he is speaking metaphorically here, not of a particular event, especially when he includes the prophets in the same verse.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #114 on: September 23, 2016, 05:24:44 PM »
Were the Epistles ever known for the historical accuracy?
Yes.

Quote
Was Paul there at the crucifixion?
No, but so what? Are you saying he didn't know much about it?

Quote
Besides, he is speaking metaphorically here, not of a particular event, especially when he includes the prophets in the same verse.
What do you mean? He's saying: a) The Jews killed the Lord. b) The Jews killed prophets. c) The Jews killed Christians in Judah. d) The Pagans have likewise killed Christians in Thessaloniki.

Maybe there are more spiritual layers there, but you can't deny it first has this literal meaning.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 05:28:12 PM by RaphaCam »
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May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #115 on: September 23, 2016, 05:30:49 PM »
Zionism is alive and well in some quarters of OC.Net, it seems these Zionist apologists would have also defended these people for killing Christ As well.

As I've known for such a long time now, anti-Zionism is often a cover for anti-Semitism.

It not anti-semitism, if it really did happen. It doesn't mean all Jews are guilty or responsible for the death of Christ, plus we are all are responsible too, since we all crucify him everyday with our sins.

Anyways I probably did act a little too emotional, and in hast due to Diego comments towards Arabs. I have went to a Orthodox Church with Palestinians who had their land stolen by European foreigners, who now call themselves "Israelis" so when Diego says the Arabs should be practically ethnic cleansed from their homelands, and Christians can stay, provided they become Israeli, yes I probably reacted too negative.

Reread the Gospels. The Jews didn't crucify our Lord. The Romans did.
1 Thessalonians 2:14-15

Is this supposed to mean something? Were the Epistles ever known for the historical accuracy? Was Paul there at the crucifixion? Besides, he is speaking metaphorically here, not of a particular event, especially when he includes the prophets in the same verse.

So, are you more "historically accurate" than the epistles?    Were you there at the crucifixion?   Did you have access to the Apostles, a vision of Christ, etc etc?

Your reply seems nonsensical.   While bending over backwards to acquit the Jewish nation of any guilt is certainly en vogue....it's not the least Scriptural, Traditional or correct.    But we're all Jews in this.    We're all Romans.    Both Jews and Gentiles consipired together to kill our Lord and savior.   No one is righteous.   This is the point.   The leadership of the chosen people used the Romans, and the Romans willingly participated in a crime.   The guilt is universal.   

« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 05:31:15 PM by Onesimus »

Offline mike

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #116 on: September 23, 2016, 05:32:48 PM »
so why won't you write "American converts crucified Christ" and leave it like that?
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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #117 on: September 23, 2016, 05:34:02 PM »
But we're all Jews in this.    We're all Romans.    Both Jews and Gentiles consipired together to kill our Lord and savior.   No one is righteous.   This is the point.   The leadership of the chosen people used the Romans, and the Romans willingly participated in a crime.   The guilt is universal.
True, and this is the most important thing in this discussion.
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Offline Onesimus

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #118 on: September 23, 2016, 05:38:21 PM »
so why won't you write "American converts crucified Christ" and leave it like that?

As you like.

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #119 on: September 23, 2016, 05:44:05 PM »
Zionism is alive and well in some quarters of OC.Net, it seems these Zionist apologists would have also defended these people for killing Christ As well.

As I've known for such a long time now, anti-Zionism is often a cover for anti-Semitism.

It not anti-semitism, if it really did happen. It doesn't mean all Jews are guilty or responsible for the death of Christ, plus we are all are responsible too, since we all crucify him everyday with our sins.

Anyways I probably did act a little too emotional, and in hast due to Diego comments towards Arabs. I have went to a Orthodox Church with Palestinians who had their land stolen by European foreigners, who now call themselves "Israelis" so when Diego says the Arabs should be practically ethnic cleansed from their homelands, and Christians can stay, provided they become Israeli, yes I probably reacted too negative.

Reread the Gospels. The Jews didn't crucify our Lord. The Romans did.
1 Thessalonians 2:14-15

Is this supposed to mean something? Were the Epistles ever known for the historical accuracy? Was Paul there at the crucifixion? Besides, he is speaking metaphorically here, not of a particular event, especially when he includes the prophets in the same verse.

So, are you more "historically accurate" than the epistles?    Were you there at the crucifixion?   Did you have access to the Apostles, a vision of Christ, etc etc?

Your reply seems nonsensical.   While bending over backwards to acquit the Jewish nation of any guilt is certainly en vogue....it's not the least Scriptural, Traditional or correct.    But we're all Jews in this.    We're all Romans.    Both Jews and Gentiles consipired together to kill our Lord and savior.   No one is righteous.   This is the point.   The leadership of the chosen people used the Romans, and the Romans willingly participated in a crime.   The guilt is universal.

All four Gospels are pretty clear that the Romans killed Jesus. I'm merely making the point that the Jews didn't whip our Lord. The Jews didn't put a crown on his head. The Jews didn't drive the nails into his hands/wrists and feet. The Jews didn't hang him up to die. The Jews didn't pierce him with a spear. And the Jews didn't put guards at the door of his tomb. All of that was done by the Romans who were Gentiles. The insistence that Jews did this, while ignoring the guilt of the Romans is exactly what allowed Ambrose of Milan and so many others advocate for pogroms against Jews and the burning of synagogues, which has continued for centuries on end. It's a point worth making considering the sick anti-Semitism that still pervades the world today.
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Offline Onesimus

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #120 on: September 23, 2016, 05:48:30 PM »
Zionism is alive and well in some quarters of OC.Net, it seems these Zionist apologists would have also defended these people for killing Christ As well.

As I've known for such a long time now, anti-Zionism is often a cover for anti-Semitism.

It not anti-semitism, if it really did happen. It doesn't mean all Jews are guilty or responsible for the death of Christ, plus we are all are responsible too, since we all crucify him everyday with our sins.

Anyways I probably did act a little too emotional, and in hast due to Diego comments towards Arabs. I have went to a Orthodox Church with Palestinians who had their land stolen by European foreigners, who now call themselves "Israelis" so when Diego says the Arabs should be practically ethnic cleansed from their homelands, and Christians can stay, provided they become Israeli, yes I probably reacted too negative.

Reread the Gospels. The Jews didn't crucify our Lord. The Romans did.
1 Thessalonians 2:14-15

Is this supposed to mean something? Were the Epistles ever known for the historical accuracy? Was Paul there at the crucifixion? Besides, he is speaking metaphorically here, not of a particular event, especially when he includes the prophets in the same verse.

So, are you more "historically accurate" than the epistles?    Were you there at the crucifixion?   Did you have access to the Apostles, a vision of Christ, etc etc?

Your reply seems nonsensical.   While bending over backwards to acquit the Jewish nation of any guilt is certainly en vogue....it's not the least Scriptural, Traditional or correct.    But we're all Jews in this.    We're all Romans.    Both Jews and Gentiles consipired together to kill our Lord and savior.   No one is righteous.   This is the point.   The leadership of the chosen people used the Romans, and the Romans willingly participated in a crime.   The guilt is universal.

All four Gospels are pretty clear that the Romans killed Jesus. I'm merely making the point that the Jews didn't whip our Lord. The Jews didn't put a crown on his head. The Jews didn't drive the nails into his hands/wrists and feet. The Jews didn't hang him up to die. The Jews didn't pierce him with a spear. And the Jews didn't put guards at the door of his tomb. All of that was done by the Romans who were Gentiles. The insistence that Jews did this, while ignoring the guilt of the Romans is exactly what allowed Ambrose of Milan and so many others advocate for pogroms against Jews and the burning of synagogues, which has continued for centuries on end. It's a point worth making considering the sick anti-Semitism that still pervades the world today.

Put that way, I understand what you're saying and why you're saying it.   We just end up all becoming unnuanced in our oppositional purposes, which aren't always clear.

But...if we need to blame somebody....I did it.  I crucified Christ.  I was there.   It's my fault.   Forgive me.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 05:50:56 PM by Onesimus »

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #121 on: September 23, 2016, 05:54:16 PM »
The Romans did.
Dear Rohzek, may I ask: Do you believe in such concepts of collective guilt, saying that "the Romans" committed this?

eg. "The Jews" did X, "The Americans" invaded Iraq, replaced Qaddafi with militants, etc.?

If moral philosophy were so easy, we would have had a compelling answer to that question long ago.
Well, you are the one using the expression yourself, claiming that "the Romans" killed Jesus. So what do you have in your mind when you talk that way?

Is that what you mean, "the Romans" committed the act?
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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #122 on: September 23, 2016, 06:01:09 PM »
All four Gospels are pretty clear that the Romans killed Jesus.

 All of that was done by the Romans who were Gentiles. The insistence that Jews did this, while ignoring the guilt of the Romans

What do you mean when you talk this way?
Who are "the Romans"?
A population of millions of citizens of Rome?

Or do you mean "the Roman government"?

If you are just talking only about the official authorities, why don't you just say that so everybody will understand what you mean when you teach that "the Romans" are "guilty of killing Jesus"?

This is how we got into this discussion about collective guilt in the first place.

And when we follow your style of thinking, we go all kinds of not nice places where you don't want to go.
Pilate was regional imperial power. Herod was the king. The Sanhedrin was the religious authority. The crowd was in the courtyard demanding sentence.

Now what are you teaching?
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 06:07:09 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Diego

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #123 on: September 23, 2016, 06:25:52 PM »
Point One: I am neither WGW, nor a relative of his.

Point Two: The fact that we may have similar views in no way implies that I am either of the things claimed by some of you in Point One.

Point Three: The fact that he and I write nothing alike (I use British orthography, and he uses American orthography) should clue those of you who peddle this BS into the fact that neither he nor I are the same person nor related to each other.

Point Four: The Moderators are perfectly capable of telling where each of us lives. Perhaps one of them could put an end to this incredible stupidity.

Point Five: Since all of you seem to share similar views on this subject, I might as well say that you are all each other's brothers, or in some cases, that you are all each other's alts. That is about as much sense as you are making in this puerile, juvenile, immature, (in fact, I shall go so far as to say downright lacking in IQ) accusation.

Final Point: Grow up and act like adults. I realise that for many of you, that may in fact be difficult. But do try, at any rate. You may find life more satisfactory that way.

As far as why I hold the views I do, let's be direct. If the so-called "Palestinians" put down their weapons today, there would be immediate peace and two states living side by side in peace and security. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no Israel left within 24 hours. Any one of you who doesn't acknowledge that hasn't got a brain, and therefore, isn't really worth arguing with in the first place, so what IS the point?

And no, my beliefs have NOTHING to do with American Evangelicalism, which for the most part I consider to be patently absurd. Then again, arguing that the Jews killed Christ when in fact it was the Roman Imperial State that executed him on a Roman Imperial Cross for crimes against the Roman Imperial State... Well, to put it bluntly, to even make such argument is to deny all common sense and basic intelligence.

Then again, the people doing that are the same people that are trying to say that I, a Lutheran, and WGW, a faithful Orthodox, are in fact the same person. So, one level of idiocy begets another, I suppose. I have seen such an intensive level of pure stupidity manifest itself in this thread from so many quarters it is absolutely unbelievable.

In fact, if the State were to declare stupidity a felonious offence, practically the entire participation in this thread, with a few notable exceptions, would probably end up being arrested outright.

Forgive me for being so brutal. And if a Moderator chooses to get in my face about this post, he is free to do so. I realise I am probably breaking about six different rules here, but I have had it up to here with the anti-Semitism, the stupidity, and the crap about me being someone else. So there you are.

« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 06:29:30 PM by Diego »

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #124 on: September 23, 2016, 06:30:31 PM »
I use British orthography, and he uses American orthography

LOL.

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #125 on: September 23, 2016, 06:48:15 PM »
Point One: I am neither WGW, nor a relative of his.

Point Three: The fact that he and I write nothing alike (I use British orthography, and he uses American orthography) should clue those of you who peddle this BS into the fact that neither he nor I are the same person nor related to each other.
You claim to be in Iowa and yet you use "British orthography"?

Something is fishy here.

Quote
Perhaps one of them could put an end to this incredible stupidity.

 That is about as much sense as you are making in this puerile, juvenile, immature, (in fact, I shall go so far as to say downright lacking in IQ) accusation.
Somebody is sounding like someone else I know.

Quote
I realise that for many of you, that may in fact be difficult. But do try, at any rate.


I think Iconodule may be on to something.


Quote
Then again, the people doing that are the same people that are trying to say that I, a Lutheran, and WGW, a faithful Orthodox, are in fact the same person.
That's some major familiarity.

Look, why not drop the mask and just say who you are. Maybe we will actually be nice to you.


What gets me is not the Britishness, but the way you talk about Christians there. What's this stuff about "the Christians" possibly getting an "exception" that lets them stay in their homeland? Why do you have so much hostility and estrangement from them? What is your "personal" reason for your views of them to be so judgmental?
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 06:49:58 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline mdamyers

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #126 on: September 23, 2016, 06:52:30 PM »
Rm 11, 25-36
Have you read St. John Chrysostom's commentary on this excerpt? St. Paul is talking about the Church as the Israel of God, and how it has sprung from the Old Testament nation. Not about Mr. Goldberg down the street.

Despite his anti-Semitic background, I'd rather believe our Holy Father than some random Baptist preacher.

I haven't read what st. John the Goldenmouth wrote about it. Neither I read Baptist preachers. I read what st. Paul wrote.
Yes. But this is eivdently hard text so we must look at what the Fathers (like St. John) have understood.

John Chrysostom is a terribly problematic go-to source for enlightenment on any questions about "the Jews" and the Scriptures. He was very careless in some of his remarks, saying things about them that were contrary to the letter and arguably the spirit of the Bible but congruent with the party line of the Emperor. And his contemporary St. Ambrose is another poor choice.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 07:04:52 PM by mdamyers »

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #127 on: September 23, 2016, 07:02:34 PM »
Wgw, you scoundrel, I have a monopoly on Britishisms! I'm willing to share it with Arachne, but certainly not with a Yankee like yourself.

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #128 on: September 23, 2016, 07:54:37 PM »
All four Gospels are pretty clear that the Romans killed Jesus.

 All of that was done by the Romans who were Gentiles. The insistence that Jews did this, while ignoring the guilt of the Romans

What do you mean when you talk this way?
Who are "the Romans"?
A population of millions of citizens of Rome?

Or do you mean "the Roman government"?

If you are just talking only about the official authorities, why don't you just say that so everybody will understand what you mean when you teach that "the Romans" are "guilty of killing Jesus"?

This is how we got into this discussion about collective guilt in the first place.

And when we follow your style of thinking, we go all kinds of not nice places where you don't want to go.
Pilate was regional imperial power. Herod was the king. The Sanhedrin was the religious authority. The crowd was in the courtyard demanding sentence.

Now what are you teaching?

What an innately stupid argument. Do we use such specific and technical language for anything of such matters? Did the Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor or did the Japanese Imperial Government bomb Pearl Harbor? Or did a faction of the Japanese Imperial Government that had a large measure of control over said government bomb Pearl Harbor? We can play word games all day long. It's no secret that the statement "The Jews killed Jesus" has most commonly been understood throughout history as A.) That Jews ACTUALLY PHYSCIALLY killed Him and B.) a statement to indict the Jews of generations later. It's dumb, but that's how so many Christians have historically interpreted it. It's how so many Church Fathers have even interpreted it. And their interpretations of such are indubitably retarded.

The statement, "The Romans killed Jesus," isn't going to feed into some sort of pre-existent anti-Roman narrative and lead to lynchings of millions of people throughout the former provinces of the Roman Empire. The statement "The Jews killed Jesus" IS going to feed that notion throughout many regions in the world. It will help stoke destructions of synagogues and slaughter of innocents.

The Romans killed Jesus. And what I mean by it is that the Roman governing authorities of Israel killed him. They sentenced him to death, etc. Why I should have to make that clear is beyond me. If you want to infer some sort of greater collective guilt, then go on right ahead. I'm not going to do it. But being complicit or guilty of a wrongful death is NOT the same as doing the act of killing.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 07:58:29 PM by Rohzek »
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Offline mdamyers

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #129 on: September 23, 2016, 08:17:02 PM »
Quote
. . . It's no secret that the statement "The Jews killed Jesus" has most commonly been understood throughout history as A.) That Jews ACTUALLY PHYSCIALLY killed Him and B.) a statement to indict the Jews of generations later. It's dumb, but that's how so many Christians have historically interpreted it. It's how so many Church Fathers have even interpreted it. And their interpretations of such are indubitably retarded.

The statement, "The Romans killed Jesus," isn't going to feed into some sort of pre-existent anti-Roman narrative and lead to lynchings of millions of people throughout the former provinces of the Roman Empire. The statement "The Jews killed Jesus" IS going to feed that notion throughout many regions in the world. It will help stoke destructions of synagogues and slaughter of innocents.

The Romans killed Jesus. And what I mean by it is that the Roman governing authorities of Israel killed him. They sentenced him to death, etc. Why I should have to make that clear is beyond me. If you want to infer some sort of greater collective guilt, then go on right ahead. I'm not going to do it. But being complicit or guilty of a wrongful death is NOT the same as doing the act of killing.

It's so refreshing to hear Orthodox actually telling the truth about this. After the first century, when the synagogue/Church conflict was very real and entirely one-sided, the tide of battle shifted dramatically over the next two centuries and by the mid- to late-fourth century it was all over: the Jews were outcasts in the Roman Empire east and west and persecuted more and more viciously by the Church -- particularly in patristic rhetoric. Very much including some of the biggest names of all, with terrible consequences for them to this day.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 08:33:25 PM by mdamyers »

Offline Diego

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #130 on: September 23, 2016, 08:28:30 PM »
Point One: I am neither WGW, nor a relative of his.

Point Three: The fact that he and I write nothing alike (I use British orthography, and he uses American orthography) should clue those of you who peddle this BS into the fact that neither he nor I are the same person nor related to each other.
You claim to be in Iowa and yet you use "British orthography"?

Something is fishy here.

I never said I grew UP in Iowa, you fool. I simply live here. In fact, I grew up in Southern California, raised a combination of Roman Catholic and Episcopal, and educated largely in my ability to pray by two Church of England priests. I started reading at five. Pretty much every book I read was from England by personal choice. I went to college at graduate school in California, and studied, guess what, Renaissance British History for both degrees.

Its quite clear you are an idiot, whatever else you may be. It is also high time for the Moderators, when they figure out that I am gratuitously insulting you as you deserve, to also figure out where WGW lives and where I live to put an end to the crap. In fact, if you like, I can respond strictly on my Kindle's Whispernet for awhile so that way it becomes obvious. But then, you are too stupid to ever figure this out, so it ceases to be my problem at this point.

Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #131 on: September 23, 2016, 08:39:47 PM »
Mods step in please there now personal attacks and name calling

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #132 on: September 23, 2016, 08:42:57 PM »
Mods step in please there now personal attacks and name calling

Thread locked pending moderator review. 

Mor Ephrem, section moderator

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #133 on: October 18, 2016, 08:58:14 PM »
Point One: I am neither WGW, nor a relative of his.

Point Three: The fact that he and I write nothing alike (I use British orthography, and he uses American orthography) should clue those of you who peddle this BS into the fact that neither he nor I are the same person nor related to each other.
You claim to be in Iowa and yet you use "British orthography"?

Something is fishy here.

I never said I grew UP in Iowa, you fool. I simply live here. In fact, I grew up in Southern California, raised a combination of Roman Catholic and Episcopal, and educated largely in my ability to pray by two Church of England priests. I started reading at five. Pretty much every book I read was from England by personal choice. I went to college at graduate school in California, and studied, guess what, Renaissance British History for both degrees.

Its quite clear you are an idiot, whatever else you may be. It is also high time for the Moderators, when they figure out that I am gratuitously insulting you as you deserve, to also figure out where WGW lives and where I live to put an end to the crap. In fact, if you like, I can respond strictly on my Kindle's Whispernet for awhile so that way it becomes obvious. But then, you are too stupid to ever figure this out, so it ceases to be my problem at this point.

Diego,

The forum rules prohibit ad hominem attacks of other members in this section, and yet you knowingly and intentionally violated this rule three times in the post above.  Therefore, at the request and on behalf of the moderator of this section, I am imposing on you a warning of fifteen (15) points. 

If you would like to appeal this decision, please PM me. 

Mor Ephrem, section moderator

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #134 on: October 18, 2016, 08:59:12 PM »
Thread unlocked.  Behave yourselves.

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