Author Topic: Christian support of the nation state of Israel  (Read 3836 times)

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Offline mike

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2016, 02:05:31 PM »
Quote
Jews have a right to live there as do the Palestinians
I agree to that. Everyone should have a home. however, my issue is that alot of the Dispensationalists are rabid supporters (bordering on blind apology) for the nation state of Israel. Is there anything in the New Testament that talks about this? Ive never seen it.

PP
Not really, the Orthodox position is that the Jews are a people like any other.

Not really.
?

Rm 11, 25-36

If I grant that you're right, that still says nothing about the Christian thought to the nation state of Israel.  Can you find a single early Christian source where there is the thought that non Christian Jews ought have their own independent nation ASAP, no matter what?  I don't think that's the logic going on there.

Once again, If you are arguing about the mistreatment of Jews by European powers, that's not a question about Jews specifically but a general question of Christian attitudes towards mistreated people.

I'm not using that to prove the modern state of Israel has or has not the right to exist and on what basis. That's irrelevant. There is nothing about that in my posts.

I'm only saying that the nation/people/ethnos of Jews thanks to its love-hate relationship with God had, has, and will have a special treatment from God not shared by any other nation/people/ethnos. And IMO it's pretty obvious from the Bible (and I not mean the Old Testament). Not saying what precisely that would consist of, though.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 02:06:45 PM by mike »
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Offline William T

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #46 on: September 22, 2016, 02:13:59 PM »
Quote
Jews have a right to live there as do the Palestinians
I agree to that. Everyone should have a home. however, my issue is that alot of the Dispensationalists are rabid supporters (bordering on blind apology) for the nation state of Israel. Is there anything in the New Testament that talks about this? Ive never seen it.

PP
Not really, the Orthodox position is that the Jews are a people like any other.

Not really.
?

Rm 11, 25-36

If I grant that you're right, that still says nothing about the Christian thought to the nation state of Israel.  Can you find a single early Christian source where there is the thought that non Christian Jews ought have their own independent nation ASAP, no matter what?  I don't think that's the logic going on there.

Once again, If you are arguing about the mistreatment of Jews by European powers, that's not a question about Jews specifically but a general question of Christian attitudes towards mistreated people.

I'm not using that to prove the modern state of Israel has or has not the right to exist and on what basis. That's irrelevant. There is nothing about that in my posts.

I'm only saying that the nation/people/ethnos of Jews thanks to its love-hate relationship with God had, has, and will have a special treatment from God not shared by any other nation/people/ethnos. And IMO it's pretty obvious from the Bible (and I not mean the Old Testament). Not saying what precisely that would consist of, though.

Gotcha, that's what I was double checking.  Due to the OP and the way you responded I wasn't sure if you were pointing out what you just stated , or trying to draw it into a specific defense of  the nation state.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 02:14:40 PM by William T »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #47 on: September 22, 2016, 02:48:55 PM »
Besides your confusion between Segregation and Apartheid, any European looking Palestinian and any Arab looking "Israeli" in so called "Israel" could show you.

I noticed a peculiar absences of public water fountains there. Maybe you have now explained it.

The lack of public water fountains proves nothing other than that not every country arranges its plumbing like the US. Come to Finland; I don't think we have one public water fountain in the whole country.
I've been to Finland.

It stands out because water fountains are such a prominent feature of the Middle East, and have been for centuries (popular as a charitable work that the rich could put their name on).
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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #48 on: September 22, 2016, 03:27:44 PM »
I really didnt know where to put this.

So, my questions is, why or why not should Christian support the current nation state of Israel?

Im not trying to get political,
but its a big and divisive subject, and I just want to know people's thoughts.
This is basically a Politics topic, because the only way to keep it out of the Politics section is to make religious doctrinal justifications for one position or the other.

Unless you very strictly discuss only the argument that it's good or bad for the Christian population or that our religious teachings say to support or oppose the State or its policies, I believe the moderators are going to move such discussions to Politics.

Typically what people will do in these kinds of discussions is to do things like compare treatment of Christians in neighboring countries to that in the Israeli state. So one person will talk about how bad ISIS is in Syria and say that Israeli rule is far better than the alternative, while another person will talk about protection or democratic governance of Christians in Cyprus, Lebanon, government-held Syria, Jordan, etc. and then propose that the alternative of such protection or democratic participation would be better for the Palestinian territories.

But after this, discussions can so easily get off track, with someone then writing a monologue only about ISIS, or bringing in a tangled web of alliances, that I don't know why you don't just start this thread in Politics. People will feel far more comfortable discussing the topic there.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 03:27:59 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Svartzorn

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #49 on: September 22, 2016, 03:44:20 PM »
I am of the personal perspective that Israel is NOT an apartheid state, and anyone who says it is doesn't know what apartheid really was. Furthermore, EVERY single Muslim living in Greater Israel should be ordered to exit the country within 30 days. Christians and Druze are welcome to live there, of course, provided they obey the laws.

(...)

That in no way conferred upon them a THIRD nationality called "Palestinian", which had never existed in history. And Israel is HARDLY obligated to give these people citizenship in a country they want to destroy.

Israel is accused of genocide. Funny, that. Since 1967, the population of the "Palestinians" has increased by FOUR times! If Israel is trying to commit genocide, they must REALLY suck at it!

(...)
 
Anybody who hides rockets in schools, uses children as human shields and suicide bombers, etc etc, should not even be allowed to live, in my not so humble opinion. But rather than shooting every one of them, which is what they deserve, I would simply impose on them the obligation of leaving Greater Israel within 30 days for any Arab country of their choice. There are 22 to choose from.


If this guy thinks like that, I'm scared of what ultranationalist israelis are currently thinking...
Israel is not an apartheid state, but the muslims must all leave. Interesting.
Well, here are some aspects of genocide:

From the Rome Statute (http://legal.un.org/icc/statute/99_corr/cstatute.htm):

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

The bolds are for things that Israel does or has done.
Ever heard of Cultural Genocide?
You deny that palestinians are even a thing, you deny their self-determination. That's pretty much a form of genocide IMO.

Oh, well. The garbage tossed aside, I'm strickingly neutral on this matter. I gave up studying it long ago. I think someday I'll come back.
My personal opinion is that jews deserve a state of their own, and those who live there must comply to the dominant culture. That does not mean casting the muslims all out and does not mean I agree with the excesses we hear from the israeli state.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 03:46:37 PM by Svartzorn »
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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #50 on: September 22, 2016, 03:47:07 PM »
DIEGO,
Christians and Druze are welcome to live there, of course, provided they obey the laws.
Earlier you said that it got to you that some Orthodox thought Anglicans were closer to Orthodoxy than Lutherans were. And I sympathized with what you said. It sounded like you actually cared what Eastern Christians think.

I don't know how to square that with the comment you just made.

Imagine if Congress announced that Native Americans or LCMS members are free to live here .... provided they obey the laws.

Quote
I have EXTREMELY personal reasons for my views.
How about the Orthodox Christians living there who are descended from the Christians we read about in the New Testament? Maybe they have personal reasons for their views too?

Quote
I would simply impose on them the obligation of leaving Greater Israel within 30 days for any Arab country of their choice. There are 22 to choose from.

Again, an exception could be made for the Christians and the Druze.

Quote
And yes, I do have strong personal reasons for my views, which I have no intention of discussing here.
Feel free to discuss here the "strong personal reasons" that "the Christians" have for their views on the opportunity of being given 30 days to leave Greater Israel.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 03:54:05 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2016, 03:51:48 PM »
...
Svartzorn and Diego,

I am not a moderator, but I'd like to give you a friendly heads up that almost everything you and Diego just wrote I think is the kind of thing the Forum would like to go to the Politics section. My friendly suggestion is that from here on you and Diego narrowly restrict your discussion to Christian and religious thought/teachings .
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 03:53:21 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #52 on: September 22, 2016, 03:56:35 PM »
Zionism is alive and well in some quarters of OC.Net, it seems these Zionist apologists would have also defended these people for killing Christ As well. Some people(mostly Evangelical Protestants) don't get it that the Palestinian Christians (mostly Orthodox) are stuck in between a rock, on one side the illegal immigrant Jewish settlers from USA, Europe & Russia, and The otherside Muslim Supremacists that has made the Christians Dhimmis going back to the times of the Ottoman Empire. If Protestants feel Jewish lives are more important than native Christians, don't act surprised when we expel your stupid missionaries.

Offline Svartzorn

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #53 on: September 22, 2016, 03:56:49 PM »
Is there any theological reason to think that the jews are any more deserving of God's love than we are?
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Offline mike

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #54 on: September 22, 2016, 04:00:13 PM »
it seems these Zionist apologists would have also defended these people for killing Christ As well.

We killed Christ. You and me.
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Offline William T

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #55 on: September 22, 2016, 04:03:10 PM »
Is there any theological reason to think that the jews are any more deserving of God's love than we are?

Is there any reason to think that a prostitute was deserving of Christ's love over a Pharisee?  I don't think it's really our job to care who is owed or deserves what when it comes to the love of God, that's pure hubris.  And I think we ought know better we don't deserve anything.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 04:03:37 PM by William T »

Offline William T

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #56 on: September 22, 2016, 04:03:59 PM »
it seems these Zionist apologists would have also defended these people for killing Christ As well.

We killed Christ. You and me.

Truth

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #57 on: September 22, 2016, 04:04:35 PM »
Is there any theological reason to think that the jews are any more deserving of God's love than we are?

According to the Babylonian Talmud (which I've read Diego) yes.  Everyone else is a goyim, and will eventually be slaves (some say voluntary slaves) to the Jews.   

The real issue is that the true Israel is still in exile...meaning Orthodox Christians.

Quote
It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are Abraham’s descendants are they all his children. On the contrary, “Through Isaac your offspring will be reckoned.” So it is not the children of the flesh who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as offspring.
Quote
For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus,

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #58 on: September 22, 2016, 04:05:23 PM »
it seems these Zionist apologists would have also defended these people for killing Christ As well.

We killed Christ. You and me.

Truth

Yup.  Lord have mercy.

The question is not whether Jews are guilty of rejecting God...it's that we are all guilty of this.

Offline William T

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #59 on: September 22, 2016, 04:10:08 PM »
it seems these Zionist apologists would have also defended these people for killing Christ As well.

We killed Christ. You and me.

Truth

Yup.  Lord have mercy.

The question is not whether Jews are guilty of rejecting God...it's that we are all guilty of this.

For the purposes of this thread, I would also say forming theories of justifications, rights, and so forth based off of this kind of thing is going to get pretty rotten pretty quick.  This is not within the scope of man to judge too much on, if he is trying to be obedient to God.  Property rights based off of who killed Christ?  Who's less guilty?  Who's more to blame?  Who can I externally scapegoat easiest?

It's not to say we can't form political or theological opinions about the nation state of Israel or Judaism, but that's a completely wrong approach to things.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 04:15:43 PM by William T »

Offline Svartzorn

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #60 on: September 22, 2016, 04:11:01 PM »
I agree with William.
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Offline Onesimus

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #61 on: September 22, 2016, 04:15:25 PM »
I'd agree with the above.   But since theologicAl grounds are the major premise behind Zionism and much of political discourse on the matter, it all gets rather convoluted quickly. 

Living in an age and a country that thinks in terms of separation of state makes our coping with the realities of this situation rather like trying to understand algebra while consistently saying that letters cannot be used in math. 
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 04:16:19 PM by Onesimus »

Offline Diego

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #62 on: September 22, 2016, 04:42:19 PM »
ONESIMUS, I would suggest that you MISread that. Because in fact, the argument is meant to say that any Jew who believes that is actually a bit of an idiot. It starts off with the statement that all non-Jews are slaves of the Jew. And then proceeds onward to say that in fact, this is NOT true. Granted, it takes PAGES and PAGES and PAGES to do it, but it does it ultimately.

In any case, this is a VERY losing war for anyone crazy enough to continue the battle. Anyone who wishes to continue this fight is welcome to do so, But I think I shall exit now. I have stated my views, and many have stated theirs. This is NOT going to change because we shoot nastiness back and forth at each other. What it WILL do is get the Moderators EXTREMELY PISSED.

If I wanted to be extremely difficult, I could start a topic on the question of how to deal with people who want us all, Christian or Jew, dead, simply because they hate us, and everything for which we stand. This is proven in Minneapolis (with a knife attack in a mall just the other day for which IS took credit), New York, San Bernadino, Brussels, and Paris, as well as on the streets of Jerusalem.

Ultimately, the USA is going to have to go over there and deal with that part of the world, and when we do, we are probably going to have to have to go Dresden on them. What that means in simple English is that we are probably going to have to take out a good half of the population of the territory of IS, or more, to show them we mean business and that we are tired of their crap. Israel will probably have to do something similar in the Gaza Strip with Hamas. And let the world know that anyone who doesn't like it can either shut up or prepare to receive similar treatment.

But I tell you what? I shall avoid starting the inevitable thread on that subject that would piss off the Moderators even further, and just wrap up my involvement here. So, have a good conversation, and hopefully you all won't hate on the Jews too much.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 04:43:34 PM by Diego »

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #63 on: September 22, 2016, 04:45:44 PM »
Ultimately, the USA is going to have to go over there and deal with that part of the world, and when we do, we are probably going to have to have to go Dresden on them.

Hi, wgw.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
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Offline William T

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #64 on: September 22, 2016, 04:49:02 PM »
Ultimately, the USA is going to have to go over there and deal with that part of the world, and when we do, we are probably going to have to have to go Dresden on them.

Hi, wgw.

I don't know what your response means, but his quote seems like a line trying to bait people.  Tough internet crusader demands "going Dresden" to "that part of the world".
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 05:06:59 PM by William T »

Offline William T

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #65 on: September 22, 2016, 04:50:40 PM »

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #66 on: September 22, 2016, 04:54:29 PM »
Zionism is alive and well in some quarters of OC.Net, it seems these Zionist apologists would have also defended these people for killing Christ As well.

As I've known for such a long time now, anti-Zionism is often a cover for anti-Semitism.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #67 on: September 22, 2016, 04:56:25 PM »
Zionism is alive and well in some quarters of OC.Net, it seems these Zionist apologists would have also defended these people for killing Christ As well.

As I've known for such a long time now, anti-Zionism is often a cover for anti-Semitism.

It often is, which is unfortunate, because it also often isn't.
Quote
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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #68 on: September 22, 2016, 05:08:40 PM »
Quote
Hi, wgw.
I don't know what your response means, 

Long posts + certain "political"/seemingly personal views on this question
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 05:13:47 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #69 on: September 22, 2016, 05:12:22 PM »
I could start a topic on the question of how to deal with people who want us all, Christian or Jew, dead, simply because they hate us
Please do, starting with this question:

Why did you say in your message before in this thread that in your plan, an "exception" "could" be made for Eastern Christians to stay in their homeland?


« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 05:15:46 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #70 on: September 22, 2016, 05:51:54 PM »
ONESIMUS, I would suggest that you MISread that. Because in fact, the argument is meant to say that any Jew who believes that is actually a bit of an idiot. It starts off with the statement that all non-Jews are slaves of the Jew. And then proceeds onward to say that in fact, this is NOT true. Granted, it takes PAGES and PAGES and PAGES to do it, but it does it ultimately.

In any case, this is a VERY losing war for anyone crazy enough to continue the battle. Anyone who wishes to continue this fight is welcome to do so, But I think I shall exit now. I have stated my views, and many have stated theirs. This is NOT going to change because we shoot nastiness back and forth at each other. What it WILL do is get the Moderators EXTREMELY PISSED.

If I wanted to be extremely difficult, I could start a topic on the question of how to deal with people who want us all, Christian or Jew, dead, simply because they hate us, and everything for which we stand. This is proven in Minneapolis (with a knife attack in a mall just the other day for which IS took credit), New York, San Bernadino, Brussels, and Paris, as well as on the streets of Jerusalem.

Ultimately, the USA is going to have to go over there and deal with that part of the world, and when we do, we are probably going to have to have to go Dresden on them. What that means in simple English is that we are probably going to have to take out a good half of the population of the territory of IS, or more, to show them we mean business and that we are tired of their crap. Israel will probably have to do something similar in the Gaza Strip with Hamas. And let the world know that anyone who doesn't like it can either shut up or prepare to receive similar treatment.

But I tell you what? I shall avoid starting the inevitable thread on that subject that would piss off the Moderators even further, and just wrap up my involvement here. So, have a good conversation, and hopefully you all won't hate on the Jews too much.
quite a roar out there from Iowa. LOL.

You forgot the bit about taking "our oil."

As for shutting up
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #71 on: September 22, 2016, 05:54:04 PM »
Quote
Hi, wgw.
I don't know what your response means, 

Long posts + certain "political"/seemingly personal views on this question

Nuking the Middle East in particular.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

Offline WPM

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #72 on: September 22, 2016, 07:01:57 PM »
I'm aware that they can snoop inside your computer and have a gander.
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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #73 on: September 22, 2016, 07:41:49 PM »
Nuking the Middle East in particular.
He keeps going on about how "personal" it is for him. Was he abused personally by Muslims or is he just taking out past personal trauma on even the pro-Christian ones?
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 07:43:18 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #74 on: September 22, 2016, 10:38:35 PM »
Rm 11, 25-36
Have you read St. John Chrysostom's commentary on this excerpt? St. Paul is talking about the Church as the Israel of God, and how it has sprung from the Old Testament nation. Not about Mr. Goldberg down the street.

Despite his anti-Semitic background, I'd rather believe our Holy Father than some random Baptist preacher.

I haven't read what st. John the Goldenmouth wrote about it. Neither I read Baptist preachers. I read what st. Paul wrote.
Yes. But this is eivdently hard text so we must look at what the Fathers (like St. John) have understood.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 10:39:14 PM by RaphaCam »
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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #75 on: September 23, 2016, 12:02:07 AM »
Rm 11, 25-36
Have you read St. John Chrysostom's commentary on this excerpt? St. Paul is talking about the Church as the Israel of God, and how it has sprung from the Old Testament nation. Not about Mr. Goldberg down the street.

Despite his anti-Semitic background, I'd rather believe our Holy Father than some random Baptist preacher.

I haven't read what st. John the Goldenmouth wrote about it. Neither I read Baptist preachers. I read what st. Paul wrote.
Yes. But this is eivdently hard text so we must look at what the Fathers (like St. John) have understood.

It looks pretty straightforward.
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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #76 on: September 23, 2016, 12:06:24 AM »
It's hard enough for many of us to understand something completely other than what the Church historically teaches...
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 12:13:08 AM by RaphaCam »
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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #77 on: September 23, 2016, 12:24:02 AM »
I'd agree with the above.   But since theologicAl grounds are the major premise behind Zionism and much of political discourse on the matter, it all gets rather convoluted quickly. 

I think it's safe to say that anti-Jewish violence and prejudice by European Christians (RC and Orthodox) played a major role as well: "Zionism emerged in the late 19th century in central and eastern Europe as a national revival movement, in reaction to anti-Semitic and exclusionary nationalist movements in Europe." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism) See the article on pogroms as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogrom

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #78 on: September 23, 2016, 08:44:24 AM »
Just from my limited realm of experience: here in the American South, some people have a very strong pro-Israel, pro-Jew, pro-Hebrew mindset (God's land, God's people, God's language).  To those who hold this view, those who don't hold it may as well be practicing Wicca.  In my wandering from church to church, one close person told me, "Just make sure you choose a church that supports Israel."  The belief springs from "I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you."  I also think that how Revelation is interpreted has a big role to play in this view.  The point being, it is a very seriously-taken spiritual and eschatological issue for some people (I have no clue about demographics).  And for these people, it is felt deeply within their bosom.  This can't be argued or explained away because it is a religious conviction.  We all have them, and I'm sure we know how we feel when people try to dissuade us.

My personal view is that they (either the nation, religion, or ethnicity) probably don't want or need our support.  More than that I don't have the knowledge to say.  But I am confident that we as Christians are to love and not hate them as people (God's chosen or not), regardless of what they or their ancestors did or didn't do.  This is enough for me.

It seems to be several posts ago, but I liked William's three-question format.  It seemed constructive.
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #79 on: September 23, 2016, 09:31:42 AM »
The Jews forfeited their covenant with God by rejecting and murdering Christ, so they have no right to claim sovereignty over Israel. Christian Zionists, mostly Hagee-style Evangelical Protestants and politically-correct Catholics, are rather inexplicable.

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #80 on: September 23, 2016, 11:52:29 AM »
I was speaking more to the spiritual aspect of this whole debate.

Politically, I know why we allow ourselves to be influenced by Israel.

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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #81 on: September 23, 2016, 12:17:07 PM »
I was speaking more to the spiritual aspect of this whole debate.
There is a lot of Orthodox literature explaining how Orthodox Christians living under those conditions think on this question in spiritual terms. See eg.
Kairos Palestine Document, St Mary's Orthodox Church, Cambridge, MA
http://www.stmaryorthodoxchurch.org/orthodoxy/articles/kairosdocument
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 12:17:30 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #82 on: September 23, 2016, 12:27:55 PM »
It's hard enough for many of us to understand something completely other than what the Church historically teaches...
The thing is, Orthodox teaching is very very deep, spiritually and philosophically. It goes back to c.2000 years of writings and commentaries.

The apocalyptic mindset is much simpler - just read the news, look at what governments the US/West like and don't like, and then fit passages from Revelations into it however you and your church group fancy.

Reading about the Whore of Babylon in the Bible? Hearing about Baghdad in the news and Sadaam having WMDs?
Bingo! Babylon = Baghdad, and the apocalypse is coming soon.

Don't think too deeply about whether Sadaam actually has WMDs or whether "Baghdad" today is what "The Whore of Babylon" referred to.

Same thing with the misconstrued Bible texts they use in the IP conflict in the thread's OP, along with their ignorance of what Eastern Christians there think.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 12:29:13 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #83 on: September 23, 2016, 01:36:05 PM »
Orthodoxy has a different mentality than nonOrthodox apocalyptic contemporary thinking.

Consider the word in Russian for "non-Christian"(roughly, pagan). It is "yazycheskoe", meaning "tongue/language". This is because people from other nations speak a multitude of foreign languages. And so for Russians, the heathens, don't practice Christianity - people following Siberian of slavic folk religions are yazychniki.

In Hebrew, the word goyim, gentile, refers to "the nations". Technically, Israel is one of them in the Bible, but this is also the word used for foreigners - "the gentiles", as we would say.

For Russians, Christianity is not yazychestvo or gentilism, but nonChristian religions are yazychestvo.

But English people don't call pagan religions "gentilism". American "contemporary protestant" apocalyptic invented folk doctrines about the Middle East has used a weird division between religions and between ethnicities that Orthodox thinking does not have or emphasize so much.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 01:38:37 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #84 on: September 23, 2016, 02:48:27 PM »
For Russians, Christianity is not yazychestvo or gentilism, but nonChristian religions are yazychestvo.

Not really. AFAIK the terms refers to polytheistic religions. Islam or Judaism would not fall into that category.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 02:49:07 PM by mike »
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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #85 on: September 23, 2016, 03:10:26 PM »
For Russians, Christianity is not yazychestvo or gentilism, but nonChristian religions are yazychestvo.

Not really. AFAIK the terms refers to polytheistic religions.
In Russian, Christianity is not yazychestvo (gentile, goyim).

What word do you imagine in Russian means the English word "pagan/heathen" and English word gentile/goyim other than "yazychnoe"?


Russian Orthodox Christian language does not classify everything in the exact neat same way that modern American English language does.


Here is another example of language difference when it comes to Russian religious terms. Yahweh means Сущий. There is no single one word in English that equates to this Hebrew name and Russian name. At best we are stuck using multiple words in English.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 03:17:42 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #86 on: September 23, 2016, 03:11:57 PM »
For Russians, Christianity is not yazychestvo or gentilism, but nonChristian religions are yazychestvo.

Not really. AFAIK the terms refers to polytheistic religions. Islam or Judaism would not fall into that category.
In Russian, Christianity is not yazychestvo (gentile, goyim).

What word do you imagine in Russian means "pagan/heathen" other than "yazychnoe"?

I'm saying "язычество" does not refer to all non-Christian religions.
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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #87 on: September 23, 2016, 03:22:05 PM »
I'm saying "язычество" does not refer to all non-Christian religions.
I understand. But my point is not talking about ALL non-Christian religions as yazychestvo.


Let me explain. In American Hagee-style "contemporary  protestant" apocalyptic terms, the land belongs to one classification and religious community, not to any gentilism. But in Russian Christian language, Christianity is not yazychestvo.

Do you understand my point?
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 03:23:30 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #88 on: September 23, 2016, 03:23:17 PM »
I'm saying "язычество" does not refer to all non-Christian religions.
I understand. But my point is not talking about ALL non-Christian religions as yazychestvo.


Let me explain. In American "contemporary  protestant" apocalyptic terms, the land belongs to one classification and religious community, not to any gentilism. But in Orthodox thinking and Russian language, Christianity is not yazychestvo.

Do you understand my point?

Not really, but don't bother with me. Keep going.
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Re: Christian support of the nation state of Israel
« Reply #89 on: September 23, 2016, 03:30:04 PM »



Let me explain. In American "contemporary  protestant" apocalyptic terms, the land belongs to one classification and religious community, not to any gentilism. But in Orthodox thinking and Russian language, Christianity is not yazychestvo.

Do you understand my point?

Not really, but don't bother with me. Keep going.

This is only an issue if you want to understand contemporary Evangelical discussions on the Middle East. I don't know about Polish, but in Russian there is a linguistic conceptual barrier to those Evangelical propositions based on how Orthodoxy sees itself.
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