Author Topic: Pope insists bodily resurrection is real, not a metaphor  (Read 2252 times)

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Offline Wandile

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Pope insists bodily resurrection is real, not a metaphor
« on: September 18, 2016, 03:52:34 PM »
Quote
VATICAN CITY - Christians are called to believe in the logic of the resurrection of the body and not succumb to heresies that reduce it to a mere spiritual experience, Pope Francis said.
When looking toward the future, the uncertainty about what happens after death often can lead to not understanding Christianity’s “logic of the future,” which proclaims that believers will rise again in body and soul like Jesus did, the pope said Sept. 16 during a morning Mass in the chapel of the Domus Sanctae Marthae.
“A spiritualistic piety, a nuanced piety is much easier; but to enter into the logic of the flesh of Christ, this is difficult. And this is the logic of the day after tomorrow. We will resurrect like the risen Christ, with our own flesh,” he said.

https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2016/09/17/pope-insists-bodily-resurrection-real-not-mere-metaphor/
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Pope insists bodily resurrection is real, not a metaphor
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2016, 03:54:12 PM »
It's sad that this makes the headlines nowadays.

Offline Wandile

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Re: Pope insists bodily resurrection is real, not a metaphor
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2016, 04:04:36 PM »
It's sad that this makes the headlines nowadays.

Indeed. Modernism has caused many people to deny basic tenets of the faith as mere allegory or symbolism.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2016, 04:05:04 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Alpo

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Re: Pope insists bodily resurrection is real, not a metaphor
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2016, 04:52:20 PM »
It's sad that this makes the headlines nowadays.

Not sure if serious. Everything makes a headlines nowadays. We live in a world of clickbaits.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Pope insists bodily resurrection is real, not a metaphor
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2016, 05:14:03 PM »
It's sad that this makes the headlines nowadays.

Not sure if serious. Everything makes a headlines nowadays. We live in a world of clickbaits.

This is roughly the equivalent of having "The Pope is Catholic" as a headline.

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Pope insists bodily resurrection is real, not a metaphor
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2016, 05:54:52 PM »
It's sad that this makes the headlines nowadays.

Indeed. Modernism has caused many people to deny basic tenets of the faith as mere allegory or symbolism.

And why not? You don't actually have to believe anything or do anything or change anything if everything is reduced to a metaphor.
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Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: Pope insists bodily resurrection is real, not a metaphor
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2016, 07:59:39 PM »
It's sad that this makes the headlines nowadays.

Not sure if serious. Everything makes a headlines nowadays. We live in a world of clickbaits.

This is roughly the equivalent of having "The Pope is Catholic" as a headline.
Well...not quite. More like "Pope Francis says something Catholic", which for some people arguably is indeed news  :P
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Offline wgw

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Re: Pope insists bodily resurrection is real, not a metaphor
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2016, 10:28:55 PM »
Quote
VATICAN CITY - Christians are called to believe in the logic of the resurrection of the body and not succumb to heresies that reduce it to a mere spiritual experience, Pope Francis said.
When looking toward the future, the uncertainty about what happens after death often can lead to not understanding Christianity’s “logic of the future,” which proclaims that believers will rise again in body and soul like Jesus did, the pope said Sept. 16 during a morning Mass in the chapel of the Domus Sanctae Marthae.
“A spiritualistic piety, a nuanced piety is much easier; but to enter into the logic of the flesh of Christ, this is difficult. And this is the logic of the day after tomorrow. We will resurrect like the risen Christ, with our own flesh,” he said.

https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2016/09/17/pope-insists-bodily-resurrection-real-not-mere-metaphor/

Good.
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Offline Indocern

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Re: Pope insists bodily resurrection is real, not a metaphor
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2016, 03:20:27 AM »
Quote
VATICAN CITY - Christians are called to believe in the logic of the resurrection of the body and not succumb to heresies that reduce it to a mere spiritual experience, Pope Francis said.
When looking toward the future, the uncertainty about what happens after death often can lead to not understanding Christianity’s “logic of the future,” which proclaims that believers will rise again in body and soul like Jesus did, the pope said Sept. 16 during a morning Mass in the chapel of the Domus Sanctae Marthae.
“A spiritualistic piety, a nuanced piety is much easier; but to enter into the logic of the flesh of Christ, this is difficult. And this is the logic of the day after tomorrow. We will resurrect like the risen Christ, with our own flesh,” he said.

https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2016/09/17/pope-insists-bodily-resurrection-real-not-mere-metaphor/

The bodies will be fairy.

Bible:

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2016, 03:24:15 AM by Indocern »

Offline William T

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Re: Pope insists bodily resurrection is real, not a metaphor
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2016, 04:34:24 AM »
In other news, the Pope is Catholic.

Offline Alpo

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Re: Pope insists bodily resurrection is real, not a metaphor
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2016, 04:46:40 AM »
It's sad that this makes the headlines nowadays.

Not sure if serious. Everything makes a headlines nowadays. We live in a world of clickbaits.

This is roughly the equivalent of having "The Pope is Catholic" as a headline.

Yes, it is. But even that comes as a suprise to some people. Not the first that kind of headline we've seen of Pope Francis.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline JoeS2

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Re: Pope insists bodily resurrection is real, not a metaphor
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2016, 09:19:38 PM »
It is written that after the Last Judgement there will be a New Heaven AND New Earth.
Who will be inheriting the earth?  The Meek. ergo Bodily Resurrection..........
« Last Edit: December 16, 2016, 09:19:54 PM by JoeS2 »

Offline FinnJames

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Re: Pope insists bodily resurrection is real, not a metaphor
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2016, 12:27:53 AM »
So which is the better choice,
1) to insist that after death one's body must go intact into the ground so that it may be risen in the future or
2) to insist that after death one's organs must be made available for transplant so that others may continue living their earthly life now?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 12:28:59 AM by FinnJames »

Offline hecma925

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Re: Pope insists bodily resurrection is real, not a metaphor
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2016, 03:04:00 AM »
So which is the better choice,
1) to insist that after death one's body must go intact into the ground so that it may be risen in the future or
2) to insist that after death one's organs must be made available for transplant so that others may continue living their earthly life now?

?
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Pope insists bodily resurrection is real, not a metaphor
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2016, 03:21:43 AM »
He'll have to convince his closest confidants of that reality.
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Offline WPM

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Re: Pope insists bodily resurrection is real, not a metaphor
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2016, 09:25:30 AM »
Somewhere in 1 and 2 Corinthians it talks about that ... Have to look and see.
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Pope insists bodily resurrection is real, not a metaphor
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2016, 11:28:36 AM »
So which is the better choice,
1) to insist that after death one's body must go intact into the ground so that it may be risen in the future or
2) to insist that after death one's organs must be made available for transplant so that others may continue living their earthly life now?

While I see where you are going with this...

...we must consider those poor individuals who died at sea and were eaten by fish, or those burned up in fires...or even our dearly loved saints, whom we have dismembered and have a finger in North America, while a toe is in Africa, and their head in Greece.

God can make it all right again. He knows how to reconnect the parts, if ever that is necessary.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Offline William T

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Re: Pope insists bodily resurrection is real, not a metaphor
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2016, 12:41:33 PM »
So which is the better choice,
1) to insist that after death one's body must go intact into the ground so that it may be risen in the future or
2) to insist that after death one's organs must be made available for transplant so that others may continue living their earthly life now?

I'm not to sure I know of a religion that insists on either, but of the two the utilitarian religion insisting such things creeps me out more.  If Orthodoxy was that, I would hopefully not be Orthodox.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 12:42:02 PM by William T »

Offline William T

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Re: Pope insists bodily resurrection is real, not a metaphor
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2016, 12:51:06 PM »
It's sad that this makes the headlines nowadays.

I don't know if the article cited is really a headline, it's from a homily delivered by Pope Francis.  Basic doctrine is probably going to need to be repeated fairly often in that context.  This has probably most always been the case.  Very few of us, myself included, are really going to go or need to go much beyond that stuff.

On Forgiveness Sunday, for example, wouldn't you expect and want much of the same things reviewed every year?  Wouldn't you expect an Orthodox news site / webpage to pick up on a few well delivered homilies on forgiveness that week?

Offline FinnJames

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Re: Pope insists bodily resurrection is real, not a metaphor
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2016, 02:53:27 PM »
So which is the better choice,
1) to insist that after death one's body must go intact into the ground so that it may be risen in the future or
2) to insist that after death one's organs must be made available for transplant so that others may continue living their earthly life now?

While I see where you are going with this...

...we must consider those poor individuals who died at sea and were eaten by fish, or those burned up in fires...or even our dearly loved saints, whom we have dismembered and have a finger in North America, while a toe is in Africa, and their head in Greece.

God can make it all right again. He knows how to reconnect the parts, if ever that is necessary.

Thanks to William T and LizaSymonenko, who took a stab at answering my poorly formulated question. And thanks hecma925 for the question mark pointing to a problem.

Perhaps a bit of background to the question would have been in order: In a talk on Orthodox funerals my priest said the coffin should be open other than in exceptional circumstances and that anyone who opted for cremation could not have an Orthodox burial. But I wasn't awake enough at the time to ask what his policy on organ donations, which seems like the sort of act that ought to be approved as it helps others even though it damages the (dead) body, is.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 02:54:41 PM by FinnJames »

Offline William T

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Re: Pope insists bodily resurrection is real, not a metaphor
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2016, 03:53:22 PM »
So which is the better choice,
1) to insist that after death one's body must go intact into the ground so that it may be risen in the future or
2) to insist that after death one's organs must be made available for transplant so that others may continue living their earthly life now?

While I see where you are going with this...

...we must consider those poor individuals who died at sea and were eaten by fish, or those burned up in fires...or even our dearly loved saints, whom we have dismembered and have a finger in North America, while a toe is in Africa, and their head in Greece.

God can make it all right again. He knows how to reconnect the parts, if ever that is necessary.

Thanks to William T and LizaSymonenko, who took a stab at answering my poorly formulated question. And thanks hecma925 for the question mark pointing to a problem.

Perhaps a bit of background to the question would have been in order: In a talk on Orthodox funerals my priest said the coffin should be open other than in exceptional circumstances and that anyone who opted for cremation could not have an Orthodox burial. But I wasn't awake enough at the time to ask what his policy on organ donations, which seems like the sort of act that ought to be approved as it helps others even though it damages the (dead) body, is.

Cremation is looked down upon as an un-ideal option, but not for that reason.  It's more along the lines that it denies the value of the human body, and it separates itself from pagan custom.  I've never heard anything against organ donation, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was the norm in many places where being an organ donor is normative (I'm a donor).

I don't think anybody really thinks you absolutely HAVE to be buried or have all your parts.  If that were the case we'd be the most conservative and dour people in the world never venturing out to far or doing much.  But we've had people die in shipwrecks, fires, wars where their bodies were unrecoverable or blown to bits, cannibalism, death camps, getting shredded to bits by lions in the arena, etc...often times for the glory of God.

cremation:

http://www.stgeorgegoc.org/pastors-corner/cremation

https://oca.org/questions/deathfunerals/cremation

I don't think (?) there is an open and shut case strictly against cremation either.  I think the argument is more along the lines of "if you have the option not to do it, take that option"
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 03:55:42 PM by William T »

Offline mike

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Re: Pope insists bodily resurrection is real, not a metaphor
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2016, 04:01:18 PM »
There is nothing wrong with the organ donation. Quite the contrary.
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Pope insists bodily resurrection is real, not a metaphor
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2017, 04:15:21 PM »
So which is the better choice,
1) to insist that after death one's body must go intact into the ground so that it may be risen in the future or
2) to insist that after death one's organs must be made available for transplant so that others may continue living their earthly life now?

While I see where you are going with this...

...we must consider those poor individuals who died at sea and were eaten by fish, or those burned up in fires...or even our dearly loved saints, whom we have dismembered and have a finger in North America, while a toe is in Africa, and their head in Greece.

God can make it all right again. He knows how to reconnect the parts, if ever that is necessary.

Our risen bodies will be in a glorified state and complete in every detail regardless of happenstances prior to the first death.  Those blind will see, those with lost limbs will be whole, the new bodies will as perfect as the ones in Eden.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Pope insists bodily resurrection is real, not a metaphor
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2017, 04:20:56 PM »
I don't think this is as obvious to most people as some here think. Yes it is a central tenet of the faith, in the creeds, and an important battle ground in fighting quite a few heresies (all the way back to the apostolic age)... but most people just think heaven=spirit, and spirit=not physical, and thus we'll just be like casper the friendly ghost floating around. While a bodily resurrection being real might be obvious to people who study (or dabble) in theology, I'd still say it's a positive for it to be reiterated.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 04:21:33 PM by Asteriktos »

Offline recent convert

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Re: Pope insists bodily resurrection is real, not a metaphor
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2017, 05:26:58 PM »
...
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 05:29:11 PM by recent convert »
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