Topic: Rudeness, fault finding and the like

[Silouan]

Per Pedro's request I started a new thread:

Ahhh...Nektarios, the epitome of the "angry young man..."  I didn't come here "looking for sympathy."  I wanted other people's input into whether it was rude or not to fail to respond to an offer to help. 

Many people responded your post with legitimate response, that perahps they were offended or else there was a communication breakdown.  You are the one that posted to three seperate threads attacking Justin - yet I'm the angry one. 

And whoever (not me) said anything about me being "so great and wonderful?"  Where is that coming from? 

Whether intentional or not that tone does come across in some of your posts.  It is not just me that has noticed such.

And you know what...maybe the problem (your and Paradosis' rude responses to me) isn't with me but with you.  Have you considered the possibility that you (and him) might have some kind of problem that causes you to be rude to others and to be unable to feel sympathy?  Have you considered that only people who are not humble and loving tell other people tell other people that there is something wrong with??? 

Actually I never said the problem was you.  I said that it would be better for you to act as if it was (regardless of whether it is or not).  Then I related some advice given to me by a priest when I was treated unfairly - to act as if I was at fault anyway.  I know am not humble nor loving, but when I attempt to put such advice into practice in my own life, I do see a change for the better. 

[Jennifer]

Per Pedro's request I started a new thread:

Many people responded your post with legitimate response, that perahps they were offended or else there was a communication breakdown.  You are the one that posted to three seperate threads attacking Justin - yet I'm the angry one. 

Oh, I don't deny that I was angry at Paradosis's uncharitable response to me.  It was downright rude.  Just as his response to my earlier thread was downright rude. 

I did take my anger with Justin (who deserves it, btw) out by posting three times.  I apologize for that.  I should have ignored his immature rant. 

Whether intentional or not that tone does come across in some of your posts.  It is not just me that has noticed such.

It's not just me who has noticed that you're an "angry young man."  It's not just me who has noticed that Justin has a problem. 

As to my supposed arrogance, one of the things I've noticed is that people who feel 'inferior' often ascribe 'arrogance' to those whom they feel inferior to.  I am better educated than most of you.  Does that mean that I think I'm better than you?  Of course not. 

Actually I never said the problem was you.  I said that it would be better for you to act as if it was (regardless of whether it is or not).  Then I related some advice given to me by a priest when I was treated unfairly - to act as if I was at fault anyway.  I know am not humble nor loving, but when I attempt to put such advice into practice in my own life, I do see a change for the better. 

Actually Paradosis said the problem was me which was where he went too far.  I'm sure he felt that he was being "real" and "honest" and all that garbage that people who bully others think they're being when they "chastise" their brothers.  But you know...it's always about them not the other person.  I'm confident, now that I'm a bit removed from his hurtful comments, that his anger with me is about him.  Just as I know that my rants in response to him was all about me. 


ETA - If Paradosis had really meant his post in a charitable manner, he would have avoided the sarcasm.  When I started reading it, I wasn't really offended.  I thought that was a possibility.  However, he turned sarcastic which turned what he wrote from a "critique" into an attack.  His sarcastic turn also proved that his post was about expressing his animosity towards me instead of trying to help me. 

Criticism is hard to give and most people, when they give it, aren't doing it for the other person.  Usually it's about them feeling better about themselves.  And I fully admit that I fall into this category more often than not. 

[GiC]

It's not just me who has noticed that you're an "angry young man."

He is? I fear I failed to notice that, but, then again, I'm often baffled by the human condition.

As to my supposed arrogance, one of the things I've noticed is that people who feel 'inferior' often ascribe 'arrogance' to those whom they feel inferior to.

Now it's all starting to make sense, when you were complaining a little while back about my 'tone' being arrogant and condescending, it was really just an inferiority complex. LOL

Seriously though, I know you dont want my advice, but I'm going to give it anyway, dont take Paradosis's comments too seriously. By virtue of being sarcastic, statements are not intended to be taken seriously; they may have a point that the person wanted to convey, but the intent was to convey it in a light-hearted manner; if you insist on taking sarcasm seriously too seriously, you will often find yourself offended.

With that said, I would probably take it further and say that one would be ill advised to take humans, in general, seriously; we are fickle creatures more fond of speech than thought and more governed by emotion than reason. In reference to our recent issues of discussion and, unfortunately, debate: if you send someone a letter on an insignificant matter and they dont respond simply conduct yourself as though it was never sent; for, in the grand scheme of things, the relevance is minimal and should not be allowed to affect your life. If early in a relationship something strange happens, take it as a blessing that it happened so soon, imagine the difficulities if such an unreliable person were to trick you until you got married into thinking they were reliable and only then revealed their true nature.

[Silouan]

The funny thing Jennifer, is that post is an example of what I was speaking of - you do think you are supieror in every way over Justin and talk down to other posters.  At least that is the tone given off from your posts.  You have several times come to the board to complain that all men are beneath you or in this most recent case that your great benevolence was spurned. 

As for the "angry young man" thing... there is no way I can disprove that.  This is a board for specific discussions and I more or less stick to that, giving the false impression that I am a sort of extremist of sorts.  But being that I have a real life, with real friends I don't post my relationship woes on the board or other details of my personal life.  In real life I am actually quite mellow - to the point of often being accused of apathy!  In essence the you're an angry young man argument is a giant strawman when you have nothing better to say or want to make a cheap shot (i.e Keble). 

With GreekisChristian he is not so much arrogant as bombastic and pompous - but I think he would take those as compliments towards his writting style.  I can debate with him endlessly about things that we'll never agree on and my guess is that we could both sit down, have a drink and have a good time.  And that probably will happen as my motto for the upcoming school year is, every hour is happy hour. 

[Jennifer]

The funny thing Jennifer, is that post is an example of what I was speaking of - you do think you are supieror in every way over Justin and talk down to other posters.  At least that is the tone given off from your posts.  You have several times come to the board to complain that all men are beneath you or in this most recent case that your great benevolence was spurned. 

I am probably smarter and better educated than Justin and other posters.  But this does not equate to my thinking I'm superior to him in "every way."  I could be nicer and pretend that's not the case but honesty is a good thing. 

Further, I never complained that "all men are beneath me."  In fact, I never wrote that or anything of the sort.  I wrote that I did not understand men but that could hardly be construed to be a complaint that all men are beneath me.  I did not write anything about my "great benevolence" in this latest event.  Your interpretations of my posts are uncompletely unreasonable and demonstrate that you are reading them with a prejudiced eye. 

You're reading things into them probably because your problems with people like me. 

How do you know, given that I never wrote it, that I think all men are beneath me?  I come here and converse with all you men.  My father's a man.  Some of my good friends are men.  You only know me from what I write just as I only know you from what you write.  And I never wrote anything indicating that I think all men are beneath me or that I have "great benevolence."  So it is unfair and judgmental to ascribe that motivation to me which fits entirely with your angry young man persona.  You're angry with me.  You're angry with people like me.  It's probably deep seated so that you may not be aware of it but it's obviously there.  If it were not there, you wouldn't be willing to read these negative things into what I wrote. 

And to prove that you're not an "angry young man" put your money where your mouth is and come up with my posts where I write that men are "beneath me."  Come up with my posts about my "great benevolence." 

[aurelia]

Jennifer said"I am probably smarter and better educated than Justin and other posters."

You keep saying that.  We get it.  However, I am smarter and better educated than my husband (just ask, he'll tell you) but I don't go around telling him that all the time.  Being smarter and better educated isn't a prerequisite for being right, or having a valid opinion.  Is it really that big of a deal that you need the validation for being smarter and better educated than some of the rest of us?

Let it go.

[Jennifer]

Jennifer said"I am probably smarter and better educated than Justin and other posters."

You keep saying that.ÂÂ  We get it.ÂÂ  However, I am smarter and better educated than my husband (just ask, he'll tell you) but I don't go around telling him that all the time.ÂÂ  Being smarter and better educated isn't a prerequisite for being right, or having a valid opinion.ÂÂ  Is it really that big of a deal that you need the validation for being smarter and better educated than some of the rest of us?

Let it go.

No, I don't keep saying that.  I've only written it twice.  That could hardly be construed to be "all the time." 

[alexander]

How could you possibly know you are better educated and smarter?!That statement in itself is unbelievably arrogant.And commenting as an independent viewer with no ax to grind,I certainly can't see your brilliance in the quality of your posts or the depth of your debating skills.

[Veniamin]

How could you possibly know you are better educated and smarter?!That statement in itself is unbelievably arrogant.

No, she's probably just playing the numbers with that one.  If she knows her IQ, she knows where she stands relative to the rest of the population in terms of raw intelligence, and if she holds a J.D., she can probably track down how educated she is relative to the rest of the population.  That's statistics, not blind arrogance.

[aurelia]

No, I don't keep saying that.ÂÂ  I've only written it twice.ÂÂ  That could hardly be construed to be "all the time."ÂÂ  

You didnt read what I said.  I said" you keep saying that" and I said I dont tell it to my husband all the time.  I never said you said it all the time.

[browneyedgirl]

I could be nicer and pretend that's not the case but honesty is a good thing.

so its ok for you to be honest about what you think of other people, but when they are honest about what they think of you then that means they are attacking you??

p.s. you are probably not smarter or better than me, cuz if you were so smart, then you wouldnt have said something so stupid.

[Jennifer]

How could you possibly know you are better educated and smarter?!That statement in itself is unbelievably arrogant.And commenting as an independent viewer with no ax to grind,I certainly can't see your brilliance in the quality of your posts or the depth of your debating skills.

I wrote that I am "probably" smarter and better educated.  There is no way I can know for certain that I am smarter and better educated but it is a reasonable guess. ÂÂ

I disagree that stating a likely fact is "arrogance."  Intelligence and education do not make one a better person.  In fact, I'd argue that they might be a hindrance to a good spiritual life.  One of the strange 'dynamics' of the internet is that we need to believe that everyone is equally intelligent and educated which usually is not the case.  It's a kind of misguided populism IMHO.  All of the children in a math class are not equally intelligent and it does not do anyone any favors to pretend that they are. ÂÂ

[Jennifer]

so its ok for you to be honest about what you think of other people, but when they are honest about what they think of you then that means they are attacking you??

p.s. you are probably not smarter or better than me, cuz if you were so smart, then you wouldnt have said something so stupid.

I don't know if I'm "better" than you but I am probably smarter than you because I know that I did not "say" anything stupid or otherwise.  I'll let you try to figure that one out. 

[alexander]

No, she's probably just playing the numbers with that one.ÂÂ  If she knows her IQ, she knows where she stands relative to the rest of the population in terms of raw intelligence, and if she holds a J.D., she can probably track down how educated she is relative to the rest of the population.ÂÂ  That's statistics, not blind arrogance.

Oh please!How could she know the I.Q.of the individual she is aiming her statement towards.Plus,I will state again-I do not see her unadulterated brilliance in the quality of her posts or her debating skills.Her problem is arrogance not numbers.

[Veniamin]

Oh please!How could she know the I.Q.of the individual she is aiming her statement towards.Plus,I will state again-I do not see her unadulterated brilliance in the quality of her posts or her debating skills.Her problem is arrogance not numbers.

She doesn't have to know his when she stated that it was a probability. 

I am probably smarter and better educated than Justin and other posters. But this does not equate to my thinking I'm superior to him in "every way."

If you know you're more intelligent than X percent of the population, you can state (as a matter of probability) that you are probably smarter than X percentage of the posters here.  You won't know for certain short of taking a poll of the board, which is precisely where statistics on that come in useful.

[Silouan]

I'd say from observing the board that there are several people that are very intelligent.  But they don't conduct themselves under the impression that they are probably moe intelligent than whoever they are dealing with.  Surely you can see how such an approach would give an undesirable tone to a person's posts?

[Veniamin]

I never said it was the most tactful thing to point out.  But saying something that she could back up isn't necessarily arrogant in and of itself.

[alexander]

I never said it was the most tactful thing to point out.ÂÂ  But saying something that she could back up isn't necessarily arrogant in and of itself.

I have not seen her back up anything.

[Jennifer]

I never said it was the most tactful thing to point out.ÂÂ  But saying something that she could back up isn't necessarily arrogant in and of itself.

Oh no...you're starting to think "like a lawyer!!!"   Your first year professors would be proud. ÂÂ

[Veniamin]

Oh no...you're starting to think "like a lawyer!!!"   Your first year professors would be proud. ÂÂ

According to my supervising attorney at the DA's office, I'm qualified to go up against some of the defense attorneys already.

I think he meant that as a shot at them, though...

[Veniamin]

I have not seen her back up anything.

I said "could" not "did."

[GiC]

One of the strange 'dynamics' of the internet is that we need to believe that everyone is equally intelligent and educated which usually is not the case.  It's a kind of misguided populism IMHO.  All of the children in a math class are not equally intelligent and it does not do anyone any favors to pretend that they are. ÂÂ

Actually it's not populism, it's more akin to meritocracy; it's quite prevalent in the world of Computer Science and hence naturally found its way onto the internet. As opposed to more subjective subjects (e.g. humanities) Computer Science is a very objective field, given any particular problem a piece of code, or proof in theoretical computer science, will either solve it or it will not; if you do solve a given problem, the Computer Science world will give you credit for it, without caring if you're a full Professor at MIT or a high school student in a third world country. It's not populism, it's credit based on merit, regarding academic honours as secondary. When these Computer Scientists invented the internet they continued in this mentality that seemed natural to them: giving credit to those who were able to solve the problems associated with this new technology, rather than those who had large numbers of letters following their names. As the scope of the internet expanded this philosophy has extended to all subjects discussed online, appeal to evidence came to take precedence over appeal to authority. Now it is true that this allows any number of strange ideas to be introduced on a variety of subjects by people obviously underqualified; however, it can also help break the dogmatism of traditional academia by facilitating unencumbered discussion and advancing the free flow of information.

A wonderful example of that in current events is the most recent of many skirmishes inregard to the teaching of evolution; while I do not believe that intelligent design should be taught in science class (it's not science, it's philosophy, and while it should be taught it should be taught in its proper context, i.e. as philosophy) the dogmatic manner in which the established 'scientific community' addresses the issue is, well, religious and not scientific, even to the extent of developing their own versions of Encyclicals and Excommunications. The internet, on the other hand, allows for unrestricted discussion of the issues without fear of retaliation, it allows everyone to weigh in and allows the issue to be addressed in a free, thought provoking, and productive manner.

[Silouan]

I do hope you are happy, Jennifer with your much greater intellectual ability.  Have fun functioning in a society where you are perfect and everyone else has something wrong with them. 

[alexander]

I said "could" not "did."

Are you kin to Bill Clinton?

[Veniamin]

Are you kin to Bill Clinton?

It depends on what your meaning of the word "to" is.

[aurelia]

Ok, I hate to do this, but this is getting amusing..

145 at age 9.ÂÂ  I assume I am smarter now.ÂÂ  Unless years of Barney and Teletubbies have rotted my brain...but that is another thread... *not to mention a good possibility, LMAO!!*

Ah well, takes all kinds.

Now on the original issue of the person not reponding to the offer of help, if it were phrased in a condescending way, intentional or not, I can understand the lack of response.ÂÂ  Jennifer may come off as arrogant and condescending, but I am sure she doesn't mean to.ÂÂ  I am sure she isnt really.ÂÂ  I've been called stuck up, but that is because i am shy (yes really).ÂÂ  So I suppose we should take her (and the rest of us) as we are, and leave it at that.

[Asteriktos]

It's not just me who has noticed that Justin has a problem. 

Well I should hope not! I'm sure Anastasios, Fr. Nikolai, Seraphim Reeves, and many others have also recognized that, to put it gently, I've got problems.

Btw, my SAT's were a lowly 1060, and my IQ was measured at about 120 (certainly not gifted). Oh, and I read at about 180 words per minute (ie. below average). Oh yeah, and I dropped out of college. Twice!

Justin (formerly Paradosis, though my new name fits me better, it means unstable in Greek)

[EkhristosAnesti]

I personally find Justin/Paradosis to be a great asset to this forum; his contributions are insightful, challenging, critical, thought-provoking, erudite, and beneficial. God bless him.

Peace.

[Silouan]

I agree with EA here - mark this down!

[SouthSerb99]

Duly noted and recorded deep within the bowels of OC.net!