Author Topic: Meanwhile in Holy Russia  (Read 10413 times)

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #135 on: January 11, 2018, 03:42:06 PM »
Seems more like a post suited to a thread about Catholic contraception bans, but I see a lot of your points.

Strictly speaking though, if murder is defined as an "unlawful killing of a human being," then God is likely not capable by murder, by definition. So, that part's a bit of a non sequitur.

Abortion should still always be a last resort, though.
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Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #136 on: January 11, 2018, 04:23:59 PM »
Hold on,  it is my understanding that in Orthodoxy, Contraceptives is allowed in rare cases, correct?

Offline Rambam

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #137 on: January 11, 2018, 04:31:36 PM »
If it was ever possible to mount an Orthodox defense of abortion ... this is ...  nah, still not close.

And if the OP really was about how Russians have a lot of sex ... Biro, I think it's time for you to talk to a travel agent. You seem ... tense.


God struck down millions of people in Noah's flood, yet it isn't murder.

God struck down the Egyptian firstborn, yet it isn't murder.

God told the Israelites to wipe out people after people in the Old Testament, but that isn't murder.

God tells us in the Old Testament to kill a child who curses his parents.

God told the Psalmist to say, "Happy shall he be who take and dash your little ones against the rocks."

The vast majority of abortions happen in the first few weeks of the pregnancy. Two or three in.

Also, the number of abortions in the U.S. has fallen steadily since 1973. This is because people usually buy birth control from a clinic.

Face it, most people don't have the spiritual strength it takes to stay celibate. They're going to have sex. It'd be nice if they didn't, but they probably will.

Unless you make sure to do something to adopt each and every one of these children, what will happen?

People get married later and later, because it's harder to find and keep a good-paying job. If we all took lie detector tests, many of us probably didn't wait until marriage for sex.

The whole point of the OP was that Russians monkey around like everybody else. They aren't as virginal as they say.

Learn and do better, or else this will keep happening.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 04:36:23 PM by Rambam »

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #138 on: January 11, 2018, 05:02:46 PM »
Ok, this is like the third time I've seen you snip at Biro. It's getting a little weird, man.
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Offline Rambam

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #139 on: January 11, 2018, 05:07:11 PM »
Suck it up, man. It's a discussion board. Avatars sending pixels to each other.  If that weirds you out, the Logout button is a few inches away.



Ok, this is like the third time I've seen you snip at Biro. It's getting a little weird, man.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #140 on: January 11, 2018, 05:13:38 PM »
Suck it up, man. It's a discussion board. Avatars sending pixels to each other.  If that weirds you out, the Logout button is a few inches away.

It's not the discussion forum aspect, it's that you seem to be fixated on one person (you even just brought her up totally unbidden in the thread on excommunication). It's makes you look like a stalker.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #141 on: January 11, 2018, 05:16:41 PM »
Don't worry, his students rate him as hot on ratemyprofessor.
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Offline Rambam

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #142 on: January 11, 2018, 05:17:05 PM »
Well, hopefully, Biro will chime in with the legal definition of stalker.

She's dishing it out. She can take it. I dish, I take. A guy like ... oh ... Asteriktos ... doesn't dish, so I tread lightly. That's how this stuff works.

Suck it up, man. It's a discussion board. Avatars sending pixels to each other.  If that weirds you out, the Logout button is a few inches away.

It's not the discussion forum aspect, it's that you seem to be fixated on one person (you even just brought her up totally unbidden in the thread on excommunication). It's makes you look like a stalker.

Offline Rambam

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #143 on: January 11, 2018, 05:17:58 PM »
I might be a hot stalker.



Don't worry, his students rate him as hot on ratemyprofessor.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #144 on: January 11, 2018, 06:16:04 PM »
God struck down millions of people in Noah's flood, yet it isn't murder.

God struck down the Egyptian firstborn, yet it isn't murder.

God told the Israelites to wipe out people after people in the Old Testament, but that isn't murder.

God tells us in the Old Testament to kill a child who curses his parents.

God told the Psalmist to say, "Happy shall he be who take and dash your little ones against the rocks."

Then let God take care of the abortions.

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #145 on: January 11, 2018, 07:32:08 PM »
And He does occasionally, sometimes before we even knew someone was there.
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #146 on: January 11, 2018, 10:08:14 PM »
God struck down millions of people in Noah's flood, yet it isn't murder.

God struck down the Egyptian firstborn, yet it isn't murder.

God told the Israelites to wipe out people after people in the Old Testament, but that isn't murder.

God tells us in the Old Testament to kill a child who curses his parents.
Pregnant women aren't God, and abortion clinics aren't armies in perpetual war.

Quote
God told the Psalmist to say, "Happy shall he be who take and dash your little ones against the rocks."
This was irony: the Edomites did this heinous act (which some specially stupid pomos might call "after-birth abortion") religiously and the Psalmists says God's revenge upon them would make this seem like a good end.

Quote
The vast majority of abortions happen in the first few weeks of the pregnancy. Two or three in.
This vast majority is still life, even if it's a bit less monstruous given there is no dismemberment of children and the babies won't feel pain.

Quote
Also, the number of abortions in the U.S. has fallen steadily since 1973. This is because people usually buy birth control from a clinic.
God, what's the matter with drug stores? lol

Quote
Face it, most people don't have the spiritual strength it takes to stay celibate. They're going to have sex. It'd be nice if they didn't, but they probably will.

Unless you make sure to do something to adopt each and every one of these children, what will happen?
They'll probably have unhappy lives, which is a better fate than death. When I'm having abortion debates with fellow countrymen and they get to this point, I show them they are just siding with former president Figueiredo, who said the solution to poverty would be nuclear nuking ghettoes.

Quote
People get married later and later, because it's harder to find and keep a good-paying job. If we all took lie detector tests, many of us probably didn't wait until marriage for sex.
So? No babies yet.

Quote
The whole point of the OP was that Russians monkey around like everybody else. They aren't as virginal as they say.

Learn and do better, or else this will keep happening.
Hopefully not killing babies on our way.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 10:09:05 PM by RaphaCam »
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Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #147 on: January 12, 2018, 01:50:19 AM »
God struck down millions of people in Noah's flood, yet it isn't murder.

God struck down the Egyptian firstborn, yet it isn't murder.

God told the Israelites to wipe out people after people in the Old Testament, but that isn't murder.

God tells us in the Old Testament to kill a child who curses his parents.

God told the Psalmist to say, "Happy shall he be who take and dash your little ones against the rocks."

You are called to be like God, biro, but a god you are not. The judgments of the Lord are beyond you, and your judgments do not compare.

The vast majority of abortions happen in the first few weeks of the pregnancy. Two or three in.

"We know that in a few weeks the embryos will become fetuses and before long we wont be able to deny them their childhood. We might even identify with them! Best to nip it all in the bud."

Also, the number of abortions in the U.S. has fallen steadily since 1973. This is because people usually buy birth control from a clinic.

Face it, most people don't have the spiritual strength it takes to stay celibate. They're going to have sex. It'd be nice if they didn't, but they probably will.

Unless you make sure to do something to adopt each and every one of these children, what will happen?

People get married later and later, because it's harder to find and keep a good-paying job. If we all took lie detector tests, many of us probably didn't wait until marriage for sex.

The whole point of the OP was that Russians monkey around like everybody else. They aren't as virginal as they say.

Let people have their pre-marital sex and their contraception, I care far less about the personal sins of others than I probably should, but this is such a poor argument. That people the world over will continue to have abortions doesn't justify creating and maintaining legal avenues to do so. That there are children without parents to love them doesn't justify killing them in the womb, or do you think it reasonable to kill them in their cribs too?

How very ugly.

Learn and do better, or else this will keep happening.

Learn and do better with regards to what?
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Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #148 on: January 12, 2018, 02:08:42 AM »
(At least from about the fifth week on. Life beginning at conception makes little sense to me)

The process once initiated can only end by forces outside of its control and will not stop on its own terms. How can we point to five, or ten, or twenty weeks and say that that is were life has begun as though the process were neatly divided between moments of life and non-life and not one continuous move towards birth? A child once conceived has started their journey through life, wherever it may take them, all the way to the grave, however far along that may be. I don't see any other moment we can define as the beginning that isn't predicated on some degree of arbitrariness.
"Take heed, you who listen to me: Our misfortune is inevitable, we cannot escape it. If God allows scandals, it is that the elect shall be revealed. Let them be burned, let them be purified, let them who have been tried be made manifest among you."   - The Life of the Archpriest Avvakum by Himself

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #149 on: January 12, 2018, 12:13:48 PM »
Also, the number of abortions in the U.S. has fallen steadily since 1973. This is because people usually buy birth control from a clinic.

Face it, most people don't have the spiritual strength it takes to stay celibate. They're going to have sex. It'd be nice if they didn't, but they probably will.

Unless you make sure to do something to adopt each and every one of these children, what will happen?

People get married later and later, because it's harder to find and keep a good-paying job. If we all took lie detector tests, many of us probably didn't wait until marriage for sex.

The whole point of the OP was that Russians monkey around like everybody else. They aren't as virginal as they say.

Let people have their pre-marital sex and their contraception, I care far less about the personal sins of others than I probably should, but this is such a poor argument. That people the world over will continue to have abortions doesn't justify creating and maintaining legal avenues to do so.

No, but it might justify creating avenues so that they don't die doing it.

That there are children without parents to love them doesn't justify killing them in the womb, or do you think it reasonable to kill them in their cribs too?

How very ugly.

Life is ugly and God is the one who forced each one of us into it for His own inscrutable reasons. As long as we can justify killing 18 year-olds (ours indirectly and those of others directly) in our wars or killing adults (again, both directly and indirectly) with our shoddy justice system, we can't afford to be so cavalier about this. We've all got blood on our hands every second of every day whether we like it or not.

I agree that every abortion is a tragedy and should be avoided at all costs (and yes, women who do it cavalierly and not with at least a heavy heart likely do deserve some measure of censure), but sometimes I don't think there's any other real choice.

And it's not just being "without parents to love them," it's also up to 18 years of probable molestation and almost definite lifetime psychological trauma in our twisted excuse for a foster system.

Learn and do better, or else this will keep happening.

Learn and do better with regards to what?

Probably better in regards to not making people pariahs for their sexual failings.

(At least from about the fifth week on. Life beginning at conception makes little sense to me)

The process once initiated can only end by forces outside of its control and will not stop on its own terms.

Guess it depends on how you define "on its own terms." Simple failure to implant in the wall of the ueterus is pretty common, as I recall.

How can we point to five, or ten, or twenty weeks and say that that is were life has begun as though the process were neatly divided between moments of life and non-life and not one continuous move towards birth? A child once conceived has started their journey through life, wherever it may take them, all the way to the grave, however far along that may be. I don't see any other moment we can define as the beginning that isn't predicated on some degree of arbitrariness.

There's not going to be a perfect dividing line, you're right. But a five week old fetus with some semblance of a human shape and the beginnings of organs being human makes a whole lot more sense to me than a cluster of five cells.

I mean, if that's the case, then why not define a sperm cell as a potential person in need of protection? It was starting along the natural process to become a person until that condom blocked it or its owner decided to use it instead for masturbation. If they were only used as God intended, every sperm would have the chance to become a person.

Though ultimately, I don't even really think it matters all that much here when life begins. As I alluded above, there is such a thing as justifiable (or at least unavoidable) homicide. A poverty stricken mother in the Third World who smothers her child in his sleep so that he doesn't die slowly of starvation is very hard for me to understand and even provokes a certain measure of disgust, but I can at least see why she might have felt she had no choice and I have no desire to string her up for murder.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 12:19:17 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Rambam

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #150 on: January 12, 2018, 12:32:45 PM »
You "can see why" a mom in a Third World country might smother her living child?

Okay then.



Also, the number of abortions in the U.S. has fallen steadily since 1973. This is because people usually buy birth control from a clinic.

Face it, most people don't have the spiritual strength it takes to stay celibate. They're going to have sex. It'd be nice if they didn't, but they probably will.

Unless you make sure to do something to adopt each and every one of these children, what will happen?

People get married later and later, because it's harder to find and keep a good-paying job. If we all took lie detector tests, many of us probably didn't wait until marriage for sex.

The whole point of the OP was that Russians monkey around like everybody else. They aren't as virginal as they say.

Let people have their pre-marital sex and their contraception, I care far less about the personal sins of others than I probably should, but this is such a poor argument. That people the world over will continue to have abortions doesn't justify creating and maintaining legal avenues to do so.

No, but it might justify creating avenues so that they don't die doing it.

That there are children without parents to love them doesn't justify killing them in the womb, or do you think it reasonable to kill them in their cribs too?

How very ugly.

Life is ugly and God is the one who forced each one of us into it for His own inscrutable reasons. As long as we can justify killing 18 year-olds (ours indirectly and those of others directly) in our wars or killing adults (again, both directly and indirectly) with our shoddy justice system, we can't afford to be so cavalier about this. We've all got blood on our hands every second of every day whether we like it or not.

I agree that every abortion is a tragedy and should be avoided at all costs (and yes, women who do it cavalierly and not with at least a heavy heart likely do deserve some measure of censure), but sometimes I don't think there's any other real choice.

And it's not just being "without parents to love them," it's also up to 18 years of probable molestation and almost definite lifetime psychological trauma in our twisted excuse for a foster system.

Learn and do better, or else this will keep happening.

Learn and do better with regards to what?

Probably better in regards to not making people pariahs for their sexual failings.

(At least from about the fifth week on. Life beginning at conception makes little sense to me)

The process once initiated can only end by forces outside of its control and will not stop on its own terms.

Guess it depends on how you define "on its own terms." Simple failure to implant in the wall of the ueterus is pretty common, as I recall.

How can we point to five, or ten, or twenty weeks and say that that is were life has begun as though the process were neatly divided between moments of life and non-life and not one continuous move towards birth? A child once conceived has started their journey through life, wherever it may take them, all the way to the grave, however far along that may be. I don't see any other moment we can define as the beginning that isn't predicated on some degree of arbitrariness.

There's not going to be a perfect dividing line, you're right. But a five week old fetus with some semblance of a human shape and the beginnings of organs being human makes a whole lot more sense to me than a cluster of five cells.

I mean, if that's the case, then why not define a sperm cell as a potential person in need of protection? It was starting along the natural process to become a person until that condom blocked it or its owner decided to use it instead for masturbation. If they were only used as God intended, every sperm would have the chance to become a person.

Though ultimately, I don't even really think it matters all that much here when life begins. As I alluded above, there is such a thing as justifiable (or at least unavoidable) homicide. A poverty stricken mother in the Third World who smothers her child in his sleep so that he doesn't die slowly of starvation is very hard for me to understand and even provokes a certain measure of disgust, but I can at least see why she might have felt she had no choice and I have no desire to string her up for murder.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 12:39:34 PM by Rambam »

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #151 on: January 12, 2018, 03:25:40 PM »
You "can see why" a mom in a Third World country might smother her living child?

Okay then.

As opposed to letting him die a lingering painful death, yes I can.

Feel free to creep on me for the rest of my life, I'm sure you will anyway.
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Offline Rambam

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #152 on: January 12, 2018, 04:18:48 PM »
Responding to three posts from Biro constitutes lifelong creepage? Seriously, what are you on about, Volnutt?

You "can see why" a mom in a Third World country might smother her living child?

Okay then.

As opposed to letting him die a lingering painful death, yes I can.

Feel free to creep on me for the rest of my life, I'm sure you will anyway.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #153 on: January 12, 2018, 05:58:01 PM »
Responding to three posts from Biro constitutes lifelong creepage? Seriously, what are you on about, Volnutt?

I was being hyperbolic. I do that.


I still think you've been a little creepy towards her, though.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Rambam

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #154 on: January 12, 2018, 06:25:53 PM »
No sweat. At the risk of being "creepy" ... let me pose a question ...

So, you'd be totally against a group like, say, Feed the Children? Just buy those mothers a whole lot of pillows, hunh? Kill them all! Especially if they're brown Third World children.





Responding to three posts from Biro constitutes lifelong creepage? Seriously, what are you on about, Volnutt?

I was being hyperbolic. I do that.


I still think you've been a little creepy towards her, though.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #155 on: January 12, 2018, 07:06:29 PM »
No sweat. At the risk of being "creepy" ... let me pose a question ...

So, you'd be totally against a group like, say, Feed the Children? Just buy those mothers a whole lot of pillows, hunh? Kill them all! Especially if they're brown Third World children.

Not at all. We who have resources should make every effort to make sure that no mother ever has to make a heartrending choice like that. All I'm saying is that it's an imperfect world and there are things worse than death.

I'm for maximizing mercy and understanding, not looking down on people facing circumstances I can scarcely imagine, whether in America or abroad.
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Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #156 on: January 12, 2018, 10:41:02 PM »
Let people have their pre-marital sex and their contraception, I care far less about the personal sins of others than I probably should, but this is such a poor argument. That people the world over will continue to have abortions doesn't justify creating and maintaining legal avenues to do so.

No, but it might justify creating avenues so that they don't die doing it.

I don't see how the fact that someone might kill themselves in an attempt to kill another warrants helping them do it.

That there are children without parents to love them doesn't justify killing them in the womb, or do you think it reasonable to kill them in their cribs too?

How very ugly.

Life is ugly and God is the one who forced each one of us into it for His own inscrutable reasons. As long as we can justify killing 18 year-olds (ours indirectly and those of others directly) in our wars or killing adults (again, both directly and indirectly) with our shoddy justice system, we can't afford to be so cavalier about this. We've all got blood on our hands every second of every day whether we like it or not.

I agree that every abortion is a tragedy and should be avoided at all costs (and yes, women who do it cavalierly and not with at least a heavy heart likely do deserve some measure of censure), but sometimes I don't think there's any other real choice.

And it's not just being "without parents to love them," it's also up to 18 years of probable molestation and almost definite lifetime psychological trauma in our twisted excuse for a foster system.

Does the possibility of trauma justify the certainty of death?

Learn and do better with regards to what?

Probably better in regards to not making people pariahs for their sexual failings.

Likely a good idea regardless.

(At least from about the fifth week on. Life beginning at conception makes little sense to me)

The process once initiated can only end by forces outside of its control and will not stop on its own terms.

Guess it depends on how you define "on its own terms." Simple failure to implant in the wall of the ueterus is pretty common, as I recall.

Well, certainly the embryo itself doesn't decide not to implant in the uterine wall.

How can we point to five, or ten, or twenty weeks and say that that is were life has begun as though the process were neatly divided between moments of life and non-life and not one continuous move towards birth? A child once conceived has started their journey through life, wherever it may take them, all the way to the grave, however far along that may be. I don't see any other moment we can define as the beginning that isn't predicated on some degree of arbitrariness.

There's not going to be a perfect dividing line, you're right. But a five week old fetus with some semblance of a human shape and the beginnings of organs being human makes a whole lot more sense to me than a cluster of five cells.

The differences between us and them might be as great as can be but it still strikes me as a bad idea to consider the Other only human when we can identify with them.

I mean, if that's the case, then why not define a sperm cell as a potential person in need of protection? It was starting along the natural process to become a person until that condom blocked it or its owner decided to use it instead for masturbation. If they were only used as God intended, every sperm would have the chance to become a person.

The situations do not compare. Without the individual engaging in any sort of sexual acts (or, I suppose, experiencing night emissions), the sperm isn't going to do a whole lot. There's absolutely no chance that another human being will be produced. An egg once fertilized, however, can only move towards that end. Sure, it might fail in the process, whether on in its own or due to unintended violence, but if it doesn't then the only reason it will likely not reach that end is if we decide that it shouldn't and inflict deliberate violence upon it.

Sperm cells are potential persons only in theory but fertilized eggs are potential persons in fact.

Though ultimately, I don't even really think it matters all that much here when life begins. As I alluded above, there is such a thing as justifiable (or at least unavoidable) homicide. A poverty stricken mother in the Third World who smothers her child in his sleep so that he doesn't die slowly of starvation is very hard for me to understand and even provokes a certain measure of disgust, but I can at least see why she might have felt she had no choice and I have no desire to string her up for murder.

Of course there are mitigating factors in all sorts of crime but you don't write policy based on mitigating factors. Neither should we make the basis of our positions on infanticide, however broad you want to define it, that the mother probably feels like she has no choice.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 10:46:41 PM by Hawkeye »
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #157 on: January 13, 2018, 02:14:19 PM »
I'll just leave this here for reflection:

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #158 on: January 21, 2018, 07:33:53 AM »
Sorry, been too depressed to respond to this till now.

Let people have their pre-marital sex and their contraception, I care far less about the personal sins of others than I probably should, but this is such a poor argument. That people the world over will continue to have abortions doesn't justify creating and maintaining legal avenues to do so.

No, but it might justify creating avenues so that they don't die doing it.

I don't see how the fact that someone might kill themselves in an attempt to kill another warrants helping them do it.

Well then let's sabotage the guns and body armor of every soldier who's not clearly embarking on a just war and storm the prison every time an innocent person is about to get a lethal injection (maybe we can rescue him and if it takes capping a few guards, worth it since they're just parties to murder after all).

Life is messy and a Universal Income, so that anyone might take on indefinite mouths to feed without starving themselves in doing so, is politically (if not also financially) impossible. Do you have a better answer?

That there are children without parents to love them doesn't justify killing them in the womb, or do you think it reasonable to kill them in their cribs too?

How very ugly.

Life is ugly and God is the one who forced each one of us into it for His own inscrutable reasons. As long as we can justify killing 18 year-olds (ours indirectly and those of others directly) in our wars or killing adults (again, both directly and indirectly) with our shoddy justice system, we can't afford to be so cavalier about this. We've all got blood on our hands every second of every day whether we like it or not.

I agree that every abortion is a tragedy and should be avoided at all costs (and yes, women who do it cavalierly and not with at least a heavy heart likely do deserve some measure of censure), but sometimes I don't think there's any other real choice.

And it's not just being "without parents to love them," it's also up to 18 years of probable molestation and almost definite lifetime psychological trauma in our twisted excuse for a foster system.

Does the possibility near certainty of trauma justify the certainty of death?

FIFY. Are you really comfortable telling anybody how much trauma they have to take or risk? I'm not. That sounds kind of totalitarian to me, to be honest. Abortion is at least painless or relatively painless.

Learn and do better with regards to what?

Probably better in regards to not making people pariahs for their sexual failings.

Likely a good idea regardless.

But your position does so by default.

(At least from about the fifth week on. Life beginning at conception makes little sense to me)

The process once initiated can only end by forces outside of its control and will not stop on its own terms.

Guess it depends on how you define "on its own terms." Simple failure to implant in the wall of the ueterus is pretty common, as I recall.

Well, certainly the embryo itself doesn't decide not to implant in the uterine wall.

Sure, but the body as a whole does. Maybe it's a broken system like everything else in the universe. Sometimes we have to work with what we've got. Sometimes sin is an unavoidable side effect of life in this world.

How can we point to five, or ten, or twenty weeks and say that that is were life has begun as though the process were neatly divided between moments of life and non-life and not one continuous move towards birth? A child once conceived has started their journey through life, wherever it may take them, all the way to the grave, however far along that may be. I don't see any other moment we can define as the beginning that isn't predicated on some degree of arbitrariness.

There's not going to be a perfect dividing line, you're right. But a five week old fetus with some semblance of a human shape and the beginnings of organs being human makes a whole lot more sense to me than a cluster of five cells.

The differences between us and them might be as great as can be but it still strikes me as a bad idea to consider the Other only human when we can identify with them.

Maybe so.

I mean, if that's the case, then why not define a sperm cell as a potential person in need of protection? It was starting along the natural process to become a person until that condom blocked it or its owner decided to use it instead for masturbation. If they were only used as God intended, every sperm would have the chance to become a person.

The situations do not compare. Without the individual engaging in any sort of sexual acts (or, I suppose, experiencing night emissions), the sperm isn't going to do a whole lot. There's absolutely no chance that another human being will be produced. An egg once fertilized, however, can only move towards that end. Sure, it might fail in the process, whether on in its own or due to unintended violence, but if it doesn't then the only reason it will likely not reach that end is if we decide that it shouldn't and inflict deliberate violence upon it.

So, "Be fruitful and multiply" is not a command? A sperm that's not doing anything is just wasted potential. It's one thing to say that God has called you to celibacy, but something else to say that you could be out there making babies but choose not to (at least according to this chain of logic).

Sperm cells are potential persons only in theory but fertilized eggs are potential persons in fact.

Are they? Think about it this way, you're in a burning fertility clinic. You can save a two year-old child or a tray of embryos, but not both. Which do you pick?

Though ultimately, I don't even really think it matters all that much here when life begins. As I alluded above, there is such a thing as justifiable (or at least unavoidable) homicide. A poverty stricken mother in the Third World who smothers her child in his sleep so that he doesn't die slowly of starvation is very hard for me to understand and even provokes a certain measure of disgust, but I can at least see why she might have felt she had no choice and I have no desire to string her up for murder.

Of course there are mitigating factors in all sorts of crime but you don't write policy based on mitigating factors. Neither should we make the basis of our positions on infanticide, however broad you want to define it, that the mother probably feels like she has no choice.

Why not? The "no choice" defense seems to work in the case of most wars and police killings.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 07:41:19 AM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #159 on: January 21, 2018, 08:49:50 AM »
Just want to put this here for those who may have forgotten Christianity successfully abolished infanticide once before. And replaced heathen child-sacrifice with orphanages and lax "laws" permitting post-natal and pre-natal infanticide with legislation outlawing and preventing the barborous and satanic practice. If killing one's own child isn't wrong, then nothing is wrong. What's wrong with killing a stranger if killing your own child is not? with the possible exception of heinously killing your own parents in old age when they are dependent on you, few things can be imagined worse than killing your own helpless infant and baby.

"Christianity rejects infanticide. The Teachings of the Apostles or Didache said "You shall not kill that which is born."[45]  (liberal Wikipedia shamelessly edits the Didache here to mask the part about abortion immediately preceding; to mask the intrinsic connection between pre and post natal infanticide). The Epistle of Barnabas stated an identical command.[46] Apologists Tertullian, Athenagoras, Minucius Felix, Justin Martyr and Lactantius also maintained that exposing a baby to death was a wicked act.[7] In 318 AD, Constantine I considered infanticide a crime, and in 374 AD, Valentinian I mandated the rearing of all children (exposing babies, especially girls, was still common). The Council of Constantinople declared that infanticide was homicide, and in 589 AD, the Third Council of Toledo took measures against the custom of killing their own children.[40]...

In the High Middle Ages, abandoning unwanted children finally eclipsed infanticide.[citation needed] Unwanted children were left at the door of church or abbey, and the clergy was assumed to take care of their upbringing. This practice also gave rise to the first orphanages."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide#Christianity
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 08:51:54 AM by Xavier »
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #160 on: January 21, 2018, 09:06:53 AM »
Just want to put this here for those who may have forgotten Christianity successfully abolished infanticide once before. And replaced heathen child-sacrifice with orphanages and lax "laws" permitting post-natal and pre-natal infanticide with legislation outlawing and preventing the barborous and satanic practice. If killing one's own child isn't wrong, then nothing is wrong. What's wrong with killing a stranger if killing your own child is not? with the possible exception of heinously killing your own parents in old age when they are dependent on you, few things can be imagined worse than killing your own helpless infant and baby.

"Christianity rejects infanticide. The Teachings of the Apostles or Didache said "You shall not kill that which is born."[45]  (liberal Wikipedia shamelessly edits the Didache here to mask the part about abortion immediately preceding; to mask the intrinsic connection between pre and post natal infanticide). The Epistle of Barnabas stated an identical command.[46] Apologists Tertullian, Athenagoras, Minucius Felix, Justin Martyr and Lactantius also maintained that exposing a baby to death was a wicked act.[7] In 318 AD, Constantine I considered infanticide a crime, and in 374 AD, Valentinian I mandated the rearing of all children (exposing babies, especially girls, was still common). The Council of Constantinople declared that infanticide was homicide, and in 589 AD, the Third Council of Toledo took measures against the custom of killing their own children.[40]...

In the High Middle Ages, abandoning unwanted children finally eclipsed infanticide.[citation needed] Unwanted children were left at the door of church or abbey, and the clergy was assumed to take care of their upbringing. This practice also gave rise to the first orphanages."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide#Christianity

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #161 on: January 21, 2018, 09:24:19 AM »
Just want to put this here for those who may have forgotten Christianity successfully abolished infanticide once before. And replaced heathen child-sacrifice with orphanages and lax "laws" permitting post-natal and pre-natal infanticide with legislation outlawing and preventing the barborous and satanic practice. If killing one's own child isn't wrong, then nothing is wrong. What's wrong with killing a stranger if killing your own child is not? with the possible exception of heinously killing your own parents in old age when they are dependent on you, few things can be imagined worse than killing your own helpless infant and baby.

"Christianity rejects infanticide. The Teachings of the Apostles or Didache said "You shall not kill that which is born."[45]  (liberal Wikipedia shamelessly edits the Didache here to mask the part about abortion immediately preceding; to mask the intrinsic connection between pre and post natal infanticide). The Epistle of Barnabas stated an identical command.[46] Apologists Tertullian, Athenagoras, Minucius Felix, Justin Martyr and Lactantius also maintained that exposing a baby to death was a wicked act.[7] In 318 AD, Constantine I considered infanticide a crime, and in 374 AD, Valentinian I mandated the rearing of all children (exposing babies, especially girls, was still common). The Council of Constantinople declared that infanticide was homicide, and in 589 AD, the Third Council of Toledo took measures against the custom of killing their own children.[40]...

In the High Middle Ages, abandoning unwanted children finally eclipsed infanticide.[citation needed] Unwanted children were left at the door of church or abbey, and the clergy was assumed to take care of their upbringing. This practice also gave rise to the first orphanages."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide#Christianity
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #162 on: January 21, 2018, 09:38:25 AM »
Just want to put this here for those who may have forgotten Christianity successfully abolished infanticide once before. And replaced heathen child-sacrifice with orphanages and lax "laws" permitting post-natal and pre-natal infanticide with legislation outlawing and preventing the barborous and satanic practice. If killing one's own child isn't wrong, then nothing is wrong. What's wrong with killing a stranger if killing your own child is not? with the possible exception of heinously killing your own parents in old age when they are dependent on you, few things can be imagined worse than killing your own helpless infant and baby.

"Christianity rejects infanticide. The Teachings of the Apostles or Didache said "You shall not kill that which is born."[45]  (liberal Wikipedia shamelessly edits the Didache here to mask the part about abortion immediately preceding; to mask the intrinsic connection between pre and post natal infanticide). The Epistle of Barnabas stated an identical command.[46] Apologists Tertullian, Athenagoras, Minucius Felix, Justin Martyr and Lactantius also maintained that exposing a baby to death was a wicked act.[7] In 318 AD, Constantine I considered infanticide a crime, and in 374 AD, Valentinian I mandated the rearing of all children (exposing babies, especially girls, was still common). The Council of Constantinople declared that infanticide was homicide, and in 589 AD, the Third Council of Toledo took measures against the custom of killing their own children.[40]...

In the High Middle Ages, abandoning unwanted children finally eclipsed infanticide.[citation needed] Unwanted children were left at the door of church or abbey, and the clergy was assumed to take care of their upbringing. This practice also gave rise to the first orphanages."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide#Christianity

Yes, because what we need is more priests with access to vulnerable children. That's the ticket!

Again, I don't deny that infanticide is a grave sin. I just seriously doubt that we can completely live without serious sin this side of Heaven. By all means, do whatever you can to reduce its occurrence and necessity, just don't kid yourself with the Simon Pure routine. You might wind up just trading the blood of a baby for the blood of an adult. Whoopdee-do.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Xavier

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #163 on: January 21, 2018, 12:48:14 PM »
It's lax compromisers like you that make infanticide legal in the first place - then say that because people are now used to killing their child, they need to be enabled to keep doing it. Do you know even Margaret Sanger rejected abortion as killing a hundred or so years ago? The crime of abortion was held in universal disgust, just like the crime of post-natal infanticide - even by contraceptive promoting agencies. Only the Church foresaw where the culture of death would lead. Contraception is the gateway drug to get you hooked on a life of sexual immorality; abortion is the end result of being unwilling and unprepared to care for the child you conceive; the baby you are bound "to love more than your own life" as the Didache puts it, and as every parent should love their child. Some 80% of those committing abortions were in fornication at the time. All these are works of darkness and their fruits are manifest.

One of the first things women, sometimes young women, who commit abortions, then regret doing so, ask themselves and us is, what kind of society permits mothers to kill their own babies? There are no good answers to that question. St. Basil's rule of 10 years should be followed for women who committed abortion earlier but have now repented. Those who obstinately deny that states have an obligation to outlaw abortion are guilty of heresy and should be anathematized. The Tradition of Christianity bears witness that states are bound by divine law to forbid infanticide.

The Church has every right and responsibility to fight back against the abortionists who make blood money from killing children; by doing so they have declared war on all humanity and civilization. Abortionists should receive a more severe sentence than that outlined by St. Basil; at least 3 times more severe as profiting from killing children as a profession is truly horrendous. It can be commuted to a lighter sentence if they sincerely repent of murder and vow to make amends by working to outlaw it.

Christianity has abolished infanticide before and it will do so again.
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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #164 on: January 21, 2018, 12:51:56 PM »
Said like someone who has never had to make a hard moral choice in his life. If people like you will judge the nations, then God help us all.


But at least you'll keep your precious hands clean. That's what's most important, right?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 12:53:28 PM by Volnutt »
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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #165 on: January 21, 2018, 01:28:26 PM »
Said like someone who has never had to make a hard moral choice in his life. If people like you will judge the nations, then God help us all.


But at least you'll keep your precious hands clean. That's what's most important, right?

What's most important is saving innocent lives.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 01:28:36 PM by Arzelle »

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #166 on: January 21, 2018, 02:08:49 PM »
Said like someone who has never had to make a hard moral choice in his life. If people like you will judge the nations, then God help us all.


But at least you'll keep your precious hands clean. That's what's most important, right?

What's most important is saving innocent lives.

Like the innocent lives slaughtered by the police every day? The innocent lives (both bystanders and conscripts who had no choice, on all sides) killed in our wars? Like the young lives who are faced with the "choice" of going through the trauma of birth and then either starving trying to raise a child in our farce of an economy or else giving the kid up into an even greater farce of an adoption system while our overburdened church charities try and fail to help them?

But what do you care? If she dies, it's because she deserved to. Serves her right for acting like a whore in the first place, doesn't it?

The most important thing is to preserve the baby who didn't ask to be born so that he can have a life of suffering under the rich man's boot just like mom and so that you can tuck yourself in at night telling yourself that, "At least I stood up for the widdle babies! I'm a good person!"
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 02:10:08 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #167 on: January 21, 2018, 02:26:55 PM »
Just edited Wikipedia backing it up with reference. Admins may be vastly neutral, but the whole site still regards neutrality, so they probably won't change it back.
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Offline Arzelle

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #168 on: January 21, 2018, 02:44:09 PM »
I'm sorry if I made you angry, friend. I didn't mean to.

Quote from: Volnutt
Like the innocent lives slaughtered by the police every day?

Yes.

Quote from: Volnutt
The innocent lives (both bystanders and conscripts who had no choice, on all sides) killed in our wars?

Yes.

Quote from: Volnutt
Like the young lives who are faced with the "choice" of going through the trauma of birth and then either starving trying to raise a child in our farce of an economy or else giving the kid up into an even greater farce of an adoption system while our overburdened church charities try and fail to help them?

I know from first-hand experience what poverty is like in the United States, but how many people do you think starve to death here?

Quote from: Volnutt
But what do you care? If she dies, it's because she deserved to. Serves her right for acting like a whore in the first place, doesn't it?

No, of course not. I really don't like how much you're reading into my comment that wasn't even remotely implied.

Quote from: Volnutt
The most important thing is to preserve the baby who didn't ask to be born so that he can have a life of suffering under the rich man's boot just like mom and so that you can tuck yourself in at night telling yourself that, "At least I stood up for the widdle babies! I'm a good person!"

For God's sake, think about what you're saying! "A life of suffering under the rich man's boot..." what total nonsense! Do you live in the real world?

Pathos and deflection don't make a convincing argument. I don't care how hard your life is, you don't get to pick and choose whether other people die. Period.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 02:48:22 PM by Arzelle »

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #169 on: January 21, 2018, 02:46:56 PM »
It's lax compromisers like you that make infanticide legal in the first place - then say that because people are now used to killing their child, they need to be enabled to keep doing it. Do you know even Margaret Sanger rejected abortion as killing a hundred or so years ago? The crime of abortion was held in universal disgust, just like the crime of post-natal infanticide - even by contraceptive promoting agencies. Only the Church foresaw where the culture of death would lead. Contraception is the gateway drug to get you hooked on a life of sexual immorality; abortion is the end result of being unwilling and unprepared to care for the child you conceive; the baby you are bound "to love more than your own life" as the Didache puts it, and as every parent should love their child. Some 80% of those committing abortions were in fornication at the time. All these are works of darkness and their fruits are manifest.

One of the first things women, sometimes young women, who commit abortions, then regret doing so, ask themselves and us is, what kind of society permits mothers to kill their own babies? There are no good answers to that question. St. Basil's rule of 10 years should be followed for women who committed abortion earlier but have now repented. Those who obstinately deny that states have an obligation to outlaw abortion are guilty of heresy and should be anathematized. The Tradition of Christianity bears witness that states are bound by divine law to forbid infanticide.

The Church has every right and responsibility to fight back against the abortionists who make blood money from killing children; by doing so they have declared war on all humanity and civilization. Abortionists should receive a more severe sentence than that outlined by St. Basil; at least 3 times more severe as profiting from killing children as a profession is truly horrendous. It can be commuted to a lighter sentence if they sincerely repent of murder and vow to make amends by working to outlaw it.

Christianity has abolished infanticide before and it will do so again.

Why do you disagree with the penance proposed by St. Basil out of curiosity?  Note that I am completely opposed to abortion; I also in one case, regarding military service, agree with St. Athanasius rather than St. Basil on the issue as to whether or not returning soldiers should abstain from the Eucharist (St. Athanasius said they should receive communion as usual, as he viewed military service as honorable, whereas St. Basil took the view that for various reasons, it wpuld be spiritually advantageous for soldiers to wait three years before taking the Eucharist).

However given the success of the early Church in stamping out abortion, do we really want to depart from the specific formularies of St. Basil?  Particularly in light of the fact that even those penances are seldom enforced by anyone.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #170 on: January 21, 2018, 03:05:00 PM »
Just edited Wikipedia backing it up with reference. Admins may be vastly neutral liberal, but the whole site still regards neutrality, so they probably won't change it back.
Fix'd
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #171 on: January 21, 2018, 03:10:07 PM »
Said like someone who has never had to make a hard moral choice in his life. If people like you will judge the nations, then God help us all.


But at least you'll keep your precious hands clean. That's what's most important, right?

What's most important is saving innocent lives.

Like the innocent lives slaughtered by the police every day? The innocent lives (both bystanders and conscripts who had no choice, on all sides) killed in our wars? Like the young lives who are faced with the "choice" of going through the trauma of birth and then either starving trying to raise a child in our farce of an economy or else giving the kid up into an even greater farce of an adoption system while our overburdened church charities try and fail to help them?

But what do you care? If she dies, it's because she deserved to. Serves her right for acting like a whore in the first place, doesn't it?

The most important thing is to preserve the baby who didn't ask to be born so that he can have a life of suffering under the rich man's boot just like mom and so that you can tuck yourself in at night telling yourself that, "At least I stood up for the widdle babies! I'm a good person!"

Let me address your points.

There is an argument to be made that Christians should bring up the hardships of refugees / immigrants who suffered through gang culture, as well as unjustified wars to a greater degree that abortion is brought up - but nonetheless, that doesn't legitimize the practice of abortion as a "societal necessity." And here's an idea - maybe we could stop funding the abortion industry and  reform our screwed up adoption system, for those kind souls who decide to do what is morally correct, against all odds, and who end up suffering and dying trying to raise a child? Perhaps the government could aid in these overburdened Church charities rather than create a literal holocaust of children?

And may I ask WHY we have to pay tax dollars for an industry that literally has no morally decent outcome? And let us assume that your scenario for justification ceases to exist - what about the privileged, white, upper class women who live lives of hedonism and waste our money for their own lifestyle? Those people exist too, you know! Simply look at Hollywood - we have beautiful role models like Lena Dunham who said "I've never had an abortion, but I wish I did!" (Not that my lifestyle is that of historical purity anyways, but I'm still a virgin!).

Your entire argument hinges on a flawed "ends-justify-the-means" Utilitarian argument.

Your argument is absolutely flawed because you negate the fact that death is of massive negative utility, which the fetus is - you can't just ignore death, so even if the ends did justify the means (which they don't in most circumstances according to Christianity - it's why wars and violence are condemned, and why the Orthodox Church won't canonize Yevgeny Rodionov), your argument fails completely.

May I ask you the question - would it be morally correct to go up to random homeless people on the street and euthanize them while they are sleeping at night? If I euthanize them, they don't suffer and don't have to endure homelessness! So let's put in place a program - after all, we could save tax dollars, perhaps cut some welfare, and lower suffering while over all increasing the quality of our country! We can preserve our resources for people who need it and who will use it properly, right?

If this isn't justified, explain to me why - because this is the exact argument you are putting forward with abortion, except you replace homeless people with babies.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 03:13:51 PM by LivenotoneviL »
I'm done.

Offline Arachne

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #172 on: January 21, 2018, 03:13:01 PM »
What's most important is saving innocent lives.

The lives of unborn children are no more important than those of the women carrying them.

the success of the early Church in stamping out abortion

Your definition of success is rather amusing.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline Arzelle

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #173 on: January 21, 2018, 03:30:06 PM »
The lives of unborn children are no more important than those of the women carrying them.

Who said they were?

Offline Arachne

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #174 on: January 21, 2018, 03:33:38 PM »
The lives of unborn children are no more important than those of the women carrying them.

Who said they were?

Supporters of wholesale bans on abortion, including for health reasons. I recommend going back to read the thread, at least from its resurrection point here.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline Arzelle

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #175 on: January 21, 2018, 03:40:52 PM »
Supporters of wholesale bans on abortion, including for health reasons. I recommend going back to read the thread, at least from its resurrection point here.

'Who said that...' was just an expression, not a real question. I meant that I never said that they were.

Offline Arachne

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #176 on: January 21, 2018, 03:43:41 PM »
Supporters of wholesale bans on abortion, including for health reasons. I recommend going back to read the thread, at least from its resurrection point here.

'Who said that...' was just an expression, not a real question. I meant that I never said that they were.

This is not about you.
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #177 on: January 21, 2018, 03:45:37 PM »
What's most important is saving innocent lives.

The lives of unborn children are no more important than those of the women carrying them.
Agreed, and vice versa. So what is the implication of your statement?
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Offline Arzelle

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #178 on: January 21, 2018, 03:47:20 PM »
Supporters of wholesale bans on abortion, including for health reasons. I recommend going back to read the thread, at least from its resurrection point here.

'Who said that...' was just an expression, not a real question. I meant that I never said that they were.

This is not about you.

Considering I'm the one you quoted, I respectfully disagree.

Offline Arachne

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #179 on: January 21, 2018, 03:52:13 PM »
Supporters of wholesale bans on abortion, including for health reasons. I recommend going back to read the thread, at least from its resurrection point here.

'Who said that...' was just an expression, not a real question. I meant that I never said that they were.

This is not about you.

Considering I'm the one you quoted, I respectfully disagree.

You are part of a group discussion. Don't take everything personally.

Except for the recommendation to go back and read the thread. That's definitely personal.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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